Who Will The Cubs Trade By The Deadline?
For the first time in a few years, the Cubs are in a position to be sellers at the non-waiver trading deadline. Even an eternal optimist like me admits that barring an absolute miracle, this season is best left in the dust.
There have been people here who accuse me of wanting to quash any trade talk. Nothing could be further from the truth. This site is a place to discuss anything and everything relating to our favorite team.
What I've tried to do, with limited success, is to point out that the trading process isn't as simple as saying, "Well, this guy's going to be a free agent, he either won't be back or we shouldn't have him back, so let's cherrypick a team and a handful of prospects and be done with him!"
It's not that simple. As we found out yesterday when we learned that Derrek Lee had invoked his 10-and-5 rights to reject a couple of possible trades, making deals involves real people with real lives beyond baseball. Of course, we'd like to see the Cubs improve in future years, and I believe they will, whether it's by dealing right now or in the offseason. Incidentally, if you want to continue the Lee discussion, use this FanPost from yesterday; I don't want this post to become another rehash of the Lee story. The topic here is different.
Please also keep in mind that much of the Twitter and other talk you hear around this time is just that -- talk. Some of it may be sent out by teams' baseball people as disinformation. We know that Jim Hendry doesn't like negotiating in the media, and Kenny Williams suggested the same the other day. That's why I tend to look at most of this kind of thing with a real skeptical eye.
I'll admit that I am not well-versed enough in other teams' farm systems to suggest possible returns for Cubs players in trade. Most of the tradeable players aren't going to bring major league talent in return; such is the state of the Cubs right now. (I assume, though I have not heard specifics, that low-to-mid-level minor leaguers were to be the return in the proposed deal for Derrek Lee.)
So, follow me past the jump to see who I think could be tradeable by Saturday's deadline, and some of the teams that have expressed interest. Remember that apart from Ted Lilly, who almost certainly would not clear waivers, virtually the entire team would clear waivers after August 1 and could be traded during the month of August.
Ted Lilly, LHP: has been linked to several teams, including the Dodgers, Mets, Tigers, Phillies, Twins and Rays, although the Twins and Phillies are on Ted's no-trade list. Further, it appears he won't be going to the Phillies now that the Phillies and Astros are very close to a deal that would send Roy Oswalt to Philadelphia. I have made it well-known here that my own preference would be to keep Ted and offer him arbitration next winter. The Mets appear to be the team on that list with the biggest need for a starting pitcher and Ted might do well in Citi Field, a pitcher-friendly park. But the Mets are also fading out of contention.
Ryan Theriot, 2B/SS: Most of us would probably volunteer to drive Theriot to the airport to fly wherever he's traded, if he's traded. His baserunning mistakes, poor performance at the plate and mediocre fielding have made him a favorite whipping boy at this site. Further, his contract doesn't make him a very desirable player to keep around next season, when he will be 31, and the club wasn't happy when he took them to an actual arbitration hearing. The problem is that other teams know all of this, too. The Rockies have expressed interest and really, if he could just switch clubhouses this weekend, that'd be fine with me. The Cubs wouldn't need much more than a PTBNL and Mike Fontenot and Jeff Baker could platoon at 2B the rest of the year (and probably give the Cubs better offensive production). MLBTR says the Padres have been "linked" to Theriot, but I have not seen this anywhere but there.
Mike Fontenot, infielder: had interest from the Yankees and Red Sox, but nothing happened. It's possible, given his (relatively) inexpensive contract, he could be sent to one of those teams before Saturday. A low-level minor leaguer would be the likely return.
Kosuke Fukudome, outfielder: The problem here is the nearly $19 million left on his contract. Some reports indicate the Cubs are willing to eat a significant portion of this money to move him; he really has little place on the remaining part of the 2010 season for the Cubs. He has started only eight games in July and has been reduced to an expensive pinch-hitter (something he's not very well suited for) and defensive replacement. That may be another issue for teams looking at him. I have suggested here that perhaps the Cubs could inquire of Japanese teams (including his old team the Chunichi Dragons) whether they might want him back next year; a deal that would pay him as much or more than he's got left on his USA contract might entice him to return to Japan for some sort of buyout from the Cubs. The Cubs did discuss sending him to the Red Sox earlier this year, but nothing came of that, and the Nationals also expressed interest.
Xavier Nady, 1B/OF: The Rangers were linked to Nady; they could use a platoon partner for Chris Davis, who really can't hit lefthanders at all (.217/.266/.400 career in 235 AB vs LHP). Nady has no role on this team and won't be back next year. I hope the Rangers make an offer to the Cubs for Nady.
Carlos Silva, RHP: No specific rumors have been attached to Silva, but you know the Cubs would like to move him if they could, given the dollars they owe him for next season. Silva pitched better in his last start after getting hit hard twice in a row. If he can do this again for a couple more outings, he might be dealable in August; he will almost certainly clear waivers.
Tom Gorzelanny, LHP: MLBTR reported interest in Gorzo, linking back to this Chris DeLuca article in the Sun-Times after Gorzelanny threw well against the Cardinals last weekend. The Cubs would be foolish to trade Gorzelanny, since he is cost-controlled for at least another year (he'll be due a raise in arbitration, but still would cost less than a free-agent acquisition) and can be a key contributor to the 2011 rotation.
Carlos Zambrano, RHP: the proverbial "elephant in the room", the Cubs have made it clear that they will trade Z if they can. They'd have to eat a significant part of the contract to do so, unless, somehow, they can make a swap for another expensive contract. My suggestion of shipping him to the White Sox for Jake Peavy was applauded by many Cubs fans, but that's likely unrealistic. Perhaps they could send him to the Mets for Oliver Perez and Luis Castillo (and ship Theriot there). Castillo's a free agent at the end of this season; Perez is a maddening player who has obvious talent that he's never quite harnessed. Maybe the change of scenery would help Perez, who turns 29 next month.
That's eight players -- nearly one-third of the 25-man roster (after Zambrano is activated tomorrow, with Brian Schlitter likely returned to Iowa). Obviously, not all these players will have forwarding addresses after Saturday. It's entirely possible that none of them will be traded; though you might think the trade market is "heating up" after the Dodgers' acquisition of Scott Podsednik last night and the apparently soon-to-be-consummated Roy Oswalt deal, neither of those means anything in terms of a Cubs deal. Jim Hendry will make a trade if it benefits the team going forward, and also if he can save the club some money. Otherwise, this season will limp to a close with the same players currently on the roster.
That ought to give you all enough to chew on today. Have at it.
0 recs |
754 comments
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Comments
I don't think there will be any moves. There does not need to be!
Tom Ricketts has shown that he likes this team the way it is!
He has kept it together so far so why break it up now?
Jim Hendry has done an amazing job in putting this team together and I an very happy he is the one trying to do the selling!
Besides Jim has a big decision to make when giant Z comes back….who to send down?
He also has already made a big move for us when he picked Howry up! That put us over the top!
All I know is that I look forword to the rest of the season with Lou showing us just how great of a manager he is!
Fun times are ahead!
by TJ11 on Jul 29, 2010 8:14 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
we really need a sarcasm font
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 29, 2010 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Not for TJ
He is dead serious about every post he makes!
A TJ font?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions
TJ
I like your thinking. If we go along with that, maybe eventually the Cubs can match the attendance of the 1979 Oakland A’s (306,000).
"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry
The 79 A's were great in one way
My buddies and I could decide on a whim to go to the game, drive up get a ticket and sit pretty much wherever we wanted. Vendors almost outnumbered fans, so no wait for beer or a dog.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 30, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
What I see in many of the trade discussions:
There is often a marked lack of consideration here of the fact that a trade requires (at least) two parties to complete, and the other side (1) has interests of their own that may not coincide with what we’re offering, (2) may also only be looking to shed some sorts of liabilities we don’t need or even want, and (3) is dealing from a somewhat lower-budget position than the Cubs have.
I think fantasy baseball has ruined trade speculation as a casual pastime.
by MN exile on Jul 29, 2010 8:19 AM CDT reply actions 8 recs
It's a shame
you don’t give the people who come here more credit, and so enthusiatically recommend a post that 1. isn’t really accurate, and 2. insults the intelligence of a lot of your posters.
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Jul 29, 2010 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
There you go again.
Bashing me for nothing. In fact, the comment I rec’d above is 100% accurate, and I agree with its conclusion. It insults no one.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Even though I disagree with the original comment
I concur that there was nothing insulting about it. It was very well-worded. The last sentence is a hypothesis, and even starts with “I think.”
Somebody take Aramis' bat off the restricted list, please.
It was also a very generic "I think"
Was not calling people on this site out, just the general public, which I do agree with. I think it’s made everyone, from me and you, to sportswriters and reporters armchair GMs.
There is SO much available information now, so many stats and splits and farm info that everyone thinks they have the answer. It makes it difficult for sure.
This
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
While I'm on the topic of real people
Would those of you who are repeatly pointing out the same things over and over again when you disagree, do this in real life?
But I realize this is same thing on every forum on any topic.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Nobody ever disagrees with me in real life
So I have no frame of reference to base this on
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Is your pimp hand strong?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hah. +1

٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jul 29, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Ha
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
I've always thought you had a good place to hide the bodies.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
That's exactly what I thought when reading this
Average at best material- gee, I didn’t know any of that! Thanks for providing such an epiphany for my feeble baseball mind. This entire website is more cliquey than when I was in high school. Rec for you tomas21.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
But do you get something out of coming to BCB?
Is it enjoyable for you?
I hate Paul Sullivan articles, I think he insults my intelligence and that a 1st grader could write what he does. But I don’t read them then. Nor do I leave comments like what I just wrote.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I do
There are a lot of good things, but compared to other sports blogs on SB Nation, BCB is probably the least accepting of different viewpoints. With that said, I do commend the baseball fanatics on here who know what they’re talking about.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
It's very shiny-happy-people
Objectivity is a rare bird here.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Are you serious?
Shiny-happy-people? Have you been here in the last year or two?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Since 2007
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Largely, because...
…. I won’t tolerate the personal attacks and profanity found on some other sites.
Civil disagreements are always acceptable.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
One man's art is another man's pornography
Civility in general is relative, and unfortunately at BCB it is subjective to a chosen few’s judgement.
Like the whole “you can’t legislate morality” point of view. Which I happen to subscribe to.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Bah (nonsense)
Respectfully disagree strongly. Every law is a moral law. The question is just who’s morality is going to be legislated. What are murder and rape law other than morality? What is no smoking in public? Simply the (moral) judgment that someone else shouldn’t have to suffer because of the smoker. (I am not a smoker and happen to disagree with these laws, BTW. But that is not what I am arguing.
Every site has a standard. Some may be “you can’t post pornographic pictures of children,” some are “we must remain civil.” this is Al’s site and I, for one, very much appreciate that I don’t have to wade through more than the occasional heated argument that sounds like two Jr High students going at it over a girl.
All in all, this site is very well run and does focus on the issues of Cubdom. I don’t agree with Al on lots of things, but I do respect the way that he runs this site.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
by Archie on Jul 29, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Sigh...
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions
No objectivity?
I just don’t understand this. I do not get the connection between profanity and objectivity. How does insulting or swearing at anyone make a point better or more legitimate? People frequently do this just because they are irritated that someone disagrees with them and do not want to debate something on merit…just tell them they are a %^$# to get them to shut up.
There are a lot of debates on here and if you think that we agree all the time I think you are mistaken. That I do so here without swearing or insulting you personally does not mean my viewpoint conforms to anything.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Why do you associate objectivity with profanity?
I’m not speaking specifically of disagreements (i.e. “Theriot’s good” “No, he’s not.”). Anyone on this board with a view contrarian to that of the masses or that dares say anything along the lines of “the Cubs are really bad” often gets roasted by those wearing rose-colored glasses. I’m not saying it happens all the time, but all of the “Go Cubs Go” rah-rah bullshit that is so pervasive on this site is nauseating.
I’m as much of a Cubs fan as anyone on here, but I guess I’m just a bit more of a realist.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't associate objectivity with profanity. That was
what I said there. There are plenty of people on here saying the Cubs are bad and being contraian just to be contrarian, just as there are a lot of people who shoot down any optimistic comments about the Cubs.
Every person who disagrees with those on a blog thinks they are a bit more of a realist.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not difficult to figure out who it is that you think knows what they are talking about.
Someone that agrees with you a lot perhaps?
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
If you don't like what I write, you are free to not read it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
tomas21 and propheteer are best friends forever
Seriously, pardon my language, but your shit, and tomas’ shit is completely tired. It’s the same troll job by you two knuckleheads constantly. Out of all of your posts and his, rarely is there anything constructive or useful said.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Look at the majority of my history
I don’t usual post when the Cubs are down (which is often lately), instead I like to enjoy their successes. Again, that’s hard to find these days.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
Thanks for the response but I was thinking more of Tomas
as he seems dislike it a lot.
I haven’t read many of yours thinking what a jack ass. :)
I’d be ok with more different views personally, but many of them come down as personal slams to others. The pissing contests is what bothers me. What I hate is the people who have an opinion different and then proceed to repeatly shove it down everyone throats. There are a handful of posters that do that.
As I have been slowly getting into more of the advanced stats, I have found some of the differing opinions to be interesting. As it’s an area I know little about.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not a troll.
I am cranky, though. I haven’t slept more than 4 hours the past 3 nights because of work and kids. This doesn’t mean I don’t believe any of the things I said, but it does mean that I have posted some things I’d normally keep to myself or word in a less inflammatory way.
For that, I’m sorry.
I wish Al would be a little more transparent in why he reports things the way he does. I’m guessing that he’s grown attached to these players and doesn’t want to see them go, and so he doesn’t take much stock in anything that says they’re leaving, and latches on to anything suggesting they might stay. I’m not a mind reader or a physchologist, so I’m guessing there’s something like that at play
I’m not saying he’s Karl Rove puppeting the media, but I do think he reports things in a fairly biased way, and gets upset if someone reports something to the contrary. That’s his prerogative, I just don’t like it when he does it.
There’s people in the world that bother me sometimes. But I’m not going to just “go elsewhere” just because someone does something that irks me. I respect Al and think he is a man of integrity. Sometimes people I respect do things I don’t like. I don’t generally just avoid them because of it. I usually try to accept them for it and get past it. When I’m tired and cranky, I don’t do as good a job.
I don’t think Al needs people rushing to his defense like a hall monitory kissing up to the teacher every time someone disagrees with him. He’s a big boy.
DEJESUS!!!
This is what happens
when the team we love is 7-17 against the Pirates and Astros and find ourselves 12 games out of first.
Everybody is on the ledge.
by Grockcubs on Jul 29, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Indeed.
"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes
by katie casey on Jul 29, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
recommended!
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
I'm not kissing up to him
But if I see someone who is being an ass…. I am going to question why.
But when I’m feeling bitchy, I don’t log on and start railing on people. Maybe before you hit post think is this something I would say to Al if we were having dinner?
But I give you credit for manning up, people don’t do that enough in real life much less online. :)
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Here's the deal.
You and I don’t often agree on things. My statements regarding potential deals (not just Cubs deals) have nothing to do with my being “attached” to anyone. I want the Cubs to win — get players that can do that. But don’t deal just to do so, and I don’t give in to every tweet or post or rumor that flies, because I believe 99.9% of those are nonsense.
All of this is my opinion. Bias? That’s a strong word, but this is not intended to be an objective site. I am not a beat reporter. This site contains my opinions and views. Yes, I do report facts, but I also put my own spin on them. That’s my right.
It is your right to disagree with them. I’d appreciate the disagreement being civil, that’s all.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Of course he is biased.
He’s a Cub fan writing and moderating and editing a Cubs blog. He’s human. He’s not a sportswriter. He’s going to be prone to being upset at opinions that insult his own. This is interactive. It is a blog. Even sportswriters would get biased and offended and yell at people occasionally if they were interacting with them all the time. I’m with you that it is irritating to be yelled at by a moderator when you believe it is only because your opinion is different, and not because it is an insult or offensive. That’s happened to me occasionally. But I prize a site where it is important to the mod not to insult or swear at others. And I don’t think you will find many, if any, blogs where the moderator doesn’t use his own opinions to shoot down others…unless it isn’t moderated at all. And I do think he tries to limit how much he does that.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions
This
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually, I disagree
I think most of the posts about trades on here at least try to take into account the actual value of the player and what the other teams would be willing to trade. Yes, there are occasional fanposts along the lines of “derrick lee and ryne theoit need to GO!!!” but those are easily ignored.
The bigger problem seems to be that when someone posts an idea, others will simply say “it won’t ever happen” or “that is dumb” without offering any alternative or explaining to the poster why the trade is unrealistic. I do believe many people are here to learn more about the Cubs and other teams, including lesser-known players. Let’s have some actual discussion instead of just dissing each other.
Somebody take Aramis' bat off the restricted list, please.
Just curious
I noticed your screen name is “Zambranofan”, and I was wondering if you are still a fan of his now, after all the craziness of the last couple of years?
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jul 29, 2010 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions
This would require a loooong answer
But (a) I would still like to see him do well, and I root for people who can overcome conflict and work together and (b) I have thought of changing my screen name, but just haven’t gotten around to it yet. I’ve posted before that after this latest incident, I would have no objection to the Cubs dealing him away and paying most of his salary.
Somebody take Aramis' bat off the restricted list, please.
Suggestions...
1) Go over to the Derrek Lee thread.
2) Read for a while.
3) Reflect. Take a bit of a walk. Something.
4) Come back here and reread what you posted in light of that other (rapidly devolving) thread. Especially the “I do believe…learn more…” part.
No real consideration whatever of anything – nothing much at all, in fact, other than incredibly uninformed speculation about Lee’s point of view and state of mind.
Depressing, really.
So I guess you could say I disagree.
That thread
has nothing to do with what you posted above. The Cubs.com message board-type trade proposals netting us Pujuls and Mauer don’t occur with any real frequency here. Most of the proposals (there are exceptions, no need to run looking for them) are fairly realistic.
DEJESUS!!!
Exactly
The Lee thread is not even about trade proposals or rumors. It is about a validated report that Lee exercised his right not to be traded.
Look, (/Piniella) there are thousands of people who come on this board weekly. Al does a good job of setting guidelines and a tone to avoid the rancor and profanity that are the norm on many sports blogs. Kudos to him for that. But, just as some people like game threads and others don’t, some people like speculation about trades and some people don’t. You could go back to my junior high notebooks and see that many of my doodles were about the Cubs’ roster, lineups, and possible trades. That was WAY before I even knew about fantasy baseball. Some people enjoy playing GM more than discussing stats or trading barbs with fans of opposing teams. Let’s each enjoy baseball in our own way, and not jump into threads that we DON"T like just to tell everybody there that they’re stupid.
Somebody take Aramis' bat off the restricted list, please.
by zambranofan on Jul 29, 2010 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
THIS
Seriously, if a topic doesnt interest you, or you know it’s going to offend you there is always a simple answer.
SKIP IT.
But that would take common sense
That is lacking online but also in the real world.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
LOL
You are right there. I’ve occasionally done what Zfan is talking about. I feel dirty now lol.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
It's sort of amazing to me how many people on here want to play "post cop"
Long before I actually signed up to comment on here, I was reading threads and it was always funny to see how many people would go out of their way to open a fanpost or fanshot and whine about how useless or repetitive the post was.
My first reaction was always “then why the hell did you read it?”
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
But, if they didn't stop by to tell you it was worthless, how would you know?
THOSE PEOPLE ARE DOING YOU A FAVOR, DAMNIT! APPRECIATE THEM!
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jul 29, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
The sad thing is that is probably their actual mindset!
"I think I'm going to a casino in Indiana and play snake eyes. I don't know what else to say, I'll be honest with you."
OK, so I see...
…that subtlety is not a long suit for most here.
A sideways move from one form of uninformed speculation to another clearly was a bit less than a good fit in this forum.
Uninformed speculation. That was the point. Not comparing trade talk with the blather on Lee’s state of mind. They are two rooms that share a wall.
Missed this at first.
Rec’d. This is the exact reason I usually don’t get into threads about trading players here (this one may be the only exception).
I have no idea what’s going on in the trading world. So why get myself worked up over something I know next to nothing about?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree
and think that, by and large, this is a fairly educated group of fans, and the ridiculous trade proposals are the exception, rather than the rule.
DEJESUS!!!
I blame video games such as MVP Baseball too.
Two mid-level pitchers for A-Rod? Why not!
You mean...
… the cubs can’t just turn the salary cap off, use the game to edit all of Mauer’s skill levels to 0%, and then offer Samardzija for him? THAT ISN’T FAIR!!
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Jul 29, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
This
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think it's just fantasy baseball
I think it’s also that fans b/c of all the info feel they “know” the player.
Although I want Theriot traded in the worst way, I have NO IDEA what is going on in his life. These players may have more money than I’ll ever see in my lifetime, but they are real people.
This isn’t a video game forum.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
Your welcome
That is the reason why I don’t want to personally know Lilly, Soto or Ryan Braun. I don’t want to be disappointed in my fav players or discover my least favorite is a good person.
These aren’t character, they are actual people.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
If you can remember sports radio
in the 1980s, before fantasy baseball was anything other than a tiny cult, you can remember people calling up with ridiculous trade rumors. It always went like “The Cubs need a third baseman. How about Buddy Bell? We could send Frank DiPino, Guy Hoffman and a minor leaguer.” It was always “a minor leaguer” because nobody knew anything about the minors back then.
Someone was always promoting a “ton of our junk for a sliver of your gold” trades. So it’s not a new phenomenon.
Thank you for yet another reminder of why I never listen to sports talk radio.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But Al, you're missing all the great callers
like the drunks who call the Score and profess that they are a “Die Sox, White Fan!!!!”
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Or how the person they was honoring
was the mother of their best man at their funeral.
… I swear, some of those B&B callers have to be hired.
Haha, they could hire me, I have the time right now
and could use the money to pay for the Old Styles I’d have to drink to sound like one of those fools.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Back When Buddy Was In Texas
Yes, I heard a lot of those crazy trade talks. The Cubs still had an aging Ron Cey at third base. I remember Cey was still hitting the ball okay, but his range was terrible at third base. Bell ended up with Cincinnati.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
So true.
Rec’d of course.
Also, I have had the opportunity to speak to several people whose lives are in the public spotlight, and what struck me was that they all seemed to be able to relate to me in real-life experiences.
This list includes one of the longest-serving and most powerful senators in the US Senate.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait
Are you talking about the Cubs at the trade deadline, or modern marriage? I got confused at the part about “shed some sorts of liabilities we don’t need or even want”
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 29, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
The Tigers could use
a combo of Lilly and Theriot right now. With all their injuries to key players they are forced to play a bunch of Rookies right now.
They do have a lot of good pitching talent in the minors. Maybe something happens there.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jul 29, 2010 8:22 AM CDT reply actions
You sir, have the best trade plan
I agree with this direction, although we still need a slew of other stuff including a leadoff hitter. Make that a switch please.
"Don't shed any tears. You think about this: Here I am, the grandson of a slave. And here the whole world was excited about whether I was going into the Hall of Fame or not. We've come a long ways." BUCK O'NEIL
by HotDogDude on Jul 29, 2010 8:49 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Could the Tigers be interested in Fukudome?
I would imagine they would not want to add a big salary, I feel as if Detroit is a little light on the $$$. But could we package Lilly, Theriot, and Dome to them? Especially since they just lost Ordonez for the season. Comerica is a big park, Dome could help them at least defensively.
I would not know what they could offer in return, but I would think this would be worth looking into.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
That's exactly what I thought when I saw Ordonez go down.
But the Cubs would have to eat almost the entire contract to move Fukudome, I’d think.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Do it, I'll him and Theriot there myself, tonight!
Lilly can get his afternoon workout in and jog there himself and start tomorrow.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
oops, meant to say "I'll drive them there..."
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Yesterdays game put a big dent in my optimism - I don't really see anything helping anymore this year.
:-(
I suppose, go for as many minor leaguers as possible, and hope that we get an undiscovered gem or two.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
A "big dent" in your optimism?
I feel like yesterday’s game was like the last bomb dropped on Pearl Harbor. It sure didn’t help but whole thing was decided long ago. Each loss to these bottom feeders is just adding insult to injury.
Me too.
I usually say “never give up, never surrender,” but…that game doused most of the remaining embers I had left. It’s sad to hear you feel that way. Please stay away from the ledge. If you fall, there may not be anyone left to help me up except maybe Drew and I haven’t seen him around much.
"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes
No fear - I'll be very careful when crossing bridges, climbing antenna towers, walking along cliffs or peering out of windows...
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
been too busy
to post, mostly.
At this point, I don’t see much of a path to success, but we’re not completely eliminated yet.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jul 29, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Well if they trade Ted Lilly,
I beg you to please yank me back. Or get one of these ready for me. Please.
"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes
As my sig sez: If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
By koolaide
do you mean absinthe?
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
If anything is stronger than KoolAid, then this

(160 proof)
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Thats good news to me
I am on the side that hopes the Cubs can resign him for next year.
BCB - We have our own dictionary!
No, they aren't
Why are you so quick to believe anything that says the Cubs won’t make a deal, and rail against rumor that the Cubs might do something? They aren’t out. The link says a deal is doubtful, not because they don’t want him, but because they don’t want to pay his salary and give up prospects. Well, that’s what negotiations are about. Maybe the Mets official is trying to get Hendry to eat more money. Maybe this Mets official has no real authority on the matter.
They aren’t “out”. There is one report that a deal is unlikely.
DEJESUS!!!
What is wrong with you?
Did you get out of bed this morning saying, “I’m going to head over to BCB and contradict every single thing Al says!”
Because that’s what it looks like to me.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I just don't understand the way you work sometimes.
If a rumor comes out the a deal could be in the works, or that someone might get traded, then it’s just a rumor, nothing more. If someone says that a Cub isn’t going to be dealt, you post it as though it’s a done deal and gospel, despite the fact that even the rumors don’t report it as anything more than a lilelihood one way or another.
It’s one thing to hope Lilly doesn’t get traded because you like him or the way he plays. It’s another to try to distort reports to make one thing more likely than another based on nothing but your hopes.
DEJESUS!!!
The verbal catfight between you two is growing tedious
Too many people take too much of what is said too personally on this site. Everybody just relax.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Dude - he posted a news report
You really seem to be trying to pick a fight.
Go start your own blog if you so disagree with BCB
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
actually, on this, Tomas has a point
When Al doesn’t agree with a deal or a writer, and someone posts a fanshot saying “Lilly might be headed to the Mets” Al is quick to point out that the writer is using his own conjecture and that no deal is imminent. When Al LIKES what is said, he posts it as if its proven fact.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
you make a good point but people will always want to attack the writer of a blog
no matter what the topic it’s a catch 22.
Although I also think this is problem on almost all blogs that have a large readership and that won’t ever change.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
If the writer is using his own comjecture...
… then I’ll say “the writer is using his own conjecture”.
If the writer is reporting something someone from the team told him, I’ll say that.
I trust you can see the difference.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, but there are plenty of times people have said "sources say"
and you still claim it “means nothing”
You’re not consistent on this.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Just yesterday, one writer said team officials told him the Tigers were going after Lilly
You responded that Jayson Stark had DEBUNKED those rumors because team sources told HIM that they weren’t.
Those are opposing reports, not one debunking the other, yet you absolutely believed Stark.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
When you see contradicting reports like that...
… generally, it means there’s nothing to the proposed deal, which has turned out to be true.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But they were only contradictory, neither was proven correct
and yet you absolutely believe Stark. Nothing has “turned out” to be true. And won’t until Sunday. Like I said, you have some inconsistencies in how you approach trade rumors, which was my point.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Husker
Although I agree he does that sometimes…..
refer back to my point that it’s his blog and people will attack regardless.
I find that on any other blog I am on.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
As I posted above...
… I post my opinions here. You post yours. That’s what we do here. It doesn’t make me wrong, and it doesn’t make you wrong, either.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You really seem to have an agenda here.
No one is perfect, and in this case what he thought was true turned out to be wrong. If you were the moderator, and had trade rumors swirling, made judgments about seemed very real or what would not be true, you’d make just as many if not more mistakes. You make judgments as much as anyone here and tell people their opinion is wrong.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I would never beleive the media reports on such things.
Yesterday they said Oswalt will not be traded. This morning: a deal is in place.
They said LeBron to the Bulls was a lock… then the Knicks… then the Cavs… then the Heat, etc.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
The best part of the LeBron thing is...
everyone of those places that was a lock were ALL reported by the same man – Chris Broussard.
Way to go out on a limb and predict every possible team….
This is one of the reasons I've mostly stayed away from posting this kind of stuff.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This is one of the reasons I've mostly stayed away from posting this kind of stuff.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I dont see why you'd refrain.
If Broussard does it and gets national recognition on ESPN, I’d just jump right on the bandwagon! You could be famous, Al!
very similar to the Big 12 reshuffling.
the writer for Orangebloods.com (the Texas Longhorns Rivals site) threw out situation after situation, basically throwing darts at a board, he was wrong on 99% of the crap he wrote, but he got just enough right to be highlighted on ESPN
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually the article says
The Mets are just about out on Ted Lilly and never were able to get into serious talks for Brett Myers
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Color me apathetic
The two givens regarding any trade scenario involving any of the aforementioned players are:
1.) It will involve the Cubs eating a large portion of the contract of the dumped player; (unless it a Bradley-Silva swap of bad contracts) and
2.) the Cubs will not receive any top flight proscpects in return.
So pardon my disinterest—
Agreed
With the exception of Lilly and assuming Gorzelanny won’t be moved, the rest of the guys on that list are more likely waiver trades after July 31, if that. Even so, there isn’t one guy on that list, other than the two mentioned above, that would draw even mid-level prospect(s) in return.
Lilly might return someone in BA’s 6-20 prospects for example but the rest would all be salary dumps with organizational players coming back in return. Think Randall Simon or Doug Glanville as recent examples of the types of players those guys could equate to come the waiver trading period following July 31. And yes, that includes Zambrano.
"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder
My only reminder for everyone as the deadline approaches...
Bloggers, tweeters, reporters, columnists – their suggestions are NOT real possibilities, i.e. “Well, Bruce Levine said…” Read a bit more carefully. Did Bruce suggest that move, or did he actually speak to someone at the organization itself, and is quoting that source?
You Hawks fans know what I’m talking about, as we just went through this (and still kinda going through it) not too long ago. “This guy said…” and “That NHL blogger said…” when a lot of the time, it was their mere speculation.
Nevertheless, these next few days should be (or at the very least, might be) entertaining.
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
by HawkVision on Jul 29, 2010 8:37 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
For example, in the link Al posted above about Lilly
A Mets official told me that obtaining Lilly is “very doubtful.”
The writer didn’t just say “…obtaining Lilly is very doubtful.”
I know a lot of you know the difference, but believe me, I don’t know how many times someone was incredibly quick to throw up a link saying “The Hawks are looking to deal Hossa!” or some other “rumor”…when the link was just a blogger suggesting (rather stupidly) the Hawks should move his contract.
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
by HawkVision on Jul 29, 2010 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Thank you.
Both posts rec’d. You are 100% correct.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And thank you
for posting a prime example for me to use!
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
You hit on a really good point.
All the various links from mainstream media, often quoted by MLBTR — which is a good central location for finding these — have to be read very carefully to see if it’s the writer’s speculation or, as noted in the NY Post article, actual information from a team source.
We speculate here all the time, and really, there’s nothing wrong with that. But I ask that people read links carefully to see what the actual information is. Though MLBTR is a good place to find links, you should always go back to the original link to see what was actually written, and also when it was written.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
good advice
but that advice cuts both ways. you linked to Wittenmeyer’s article the other day where the author took some pretty generic, luke-warm comments from ramirez about wanting to stay and from that he concluded that ramirez was “leaning” toward staying. you posted it here turning “leaning” to “likely”.
just be aware that reporters usually have an angle that they are playing up, and that articles, quotes, etc. often have more than one interpretation.
by circuitclout on Jul 29, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions
just be aware that reporters usually have an angle that they are playing up, and that articles, quotes, etc. often have more than one interpretation.
Sure they do. So do I. So do you. That’s what we discuss here. That was my interpretation of the article.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
and i made a mistake
the suntimes article said that ramirez “seems inclined” to exercise his option for 2011, MLBTR changed “seems inclined” to “leaning” and BCB called it “likely”. My point was just that the original article was based largely on the author’s interpretation of ramirez’s comments and that with each retelling the description of the comments changed a bit, from “seems inclined” to “leaning” to “likely”. each of those words/phrases have a slightly different meaning or connotation even though they are based on the same quote.
i didn’t interpret ramirez’s comments the same way you did, and noted in another thread that ramirez said similar things about not exercising his previous opt-out clause before doing just that.
admittedly, i’m of the belief that he will opt out. time will tell.
by circuitclout on Jul 29, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Right.
That’s why we express our own opinions here. You think he’ll opt out. I think he’s staying. As you note, time will tell.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
exactly
and i’ll tell ya what al, if the astros have to eat salary to move oswalt for happ and two fringe prospects (and i like happ more than most) then i’ll have to admit that your take on the changing economics in baseball is more accurate than mine.
by circuitclout on Jul 29, 2010 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Again, that's why we discuss things here.
We all learn stuff from each other. It does, in fact, appear that the Astros are going to eat a significant portion of Oswalt’s deal.
This is going to be a VERY interesting offseason. Prediction: top free agents like Cliff Lee (and he might be the only one who qualifies in that category) will make their money.
Guys in the next tier like Derrek Lee may find themselves with severe pay cuts or no offers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Exactly,
Lee could end up in a similar situation as Jermaine Dye, although Dye refused to move from the outfield, whereas Lee is still an above average defensive 1B and could DH.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Dye also wanted way, way, way too much money
I’d like to think that Lee is smarter than dye.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Lee is probably smarter than Dye.
And like any aging vet in the twilight of his career with his skills under question, like a Rolen with the Cards, he’s not going to want to take a big pay cut to stay on the same team. He will certainly make less money if he signs another contract. It will be interesting to see what happens with him.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Oswalt like many other players
got a contract in the midst of good times and don’t pay today for what you can avoid until tomorrow. The local Houston sportswriters firmly believe that the Astros will toss some money at the Phils to complete the deal. Backloaded contracts are a huge impediment to trades nowadays. Look at Z’s salary scale and you’ll see why he’ll never get sold without over 50% of the money being part of the deal.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Well, when Houston has to send money with Oswalt
It definitely meand that moving Zambrano will require adding in a lot money or eating another team’s bad contract.
True enough.
I think the Cubs probably figured that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Of course!
Speculation makes substantial (in good and terrible ways) comment board discussion. But, I just couldn’t take it on some sites around the time of NHL free agency a few weeks ago…“Did you hear…(some incredibly stoooopid rumor from some idiot blogger with no source or credibility whatsoever) omg, what are the Hawks thinking!?”
I enjoy keeping tabs on the various fan sites and league sites during a time like this, but a few weeks ago, the overreactions and misinformation was too much. I stopped paying attention all together. So, my posts were hopeful attempts at trying to ease that up a bit. Thanks again for the reinforcement!
"What the hell, let's review it." - Dale Tallon
"They are!" - Pat Foley
"What a farce." - Dale Tallon
I hope that there are some movers
but I do not feel that anyone will be able to deliver the goods. I think the Cubs will want too much for Lilly, in the eyes of the buyer, and that will fall through. The other big contracts don’t really have a chance, barring the Cubs taking on almost the entire contract. I feel the players that have the best chance of playing past the regular season this year are Fontenot and Gorzo. Best bang for your buck here. But I would hope the Cubs would keep Gorzo. I am in complete agreement with Al’s reasons.
Anybody else sick of the trade speculation?
::Hand raised::
None of us have any idea what the hell’s gonna happen. I learned this when we got Nomar—came outta thin air.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jul 29, 2010 8:48 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Raising my hand
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jul 29, 2010 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Normar and Harden.
I was totally surprised by Harden too.
by BadDecisions on Jul 29, 2010 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Many people here WANTED Harden.
However, until the Cubs actually got him, there were no specific rumors linking the Cubs to the A’s.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think lots of people wanted him... at the right price...
I think most people just assumed he wasn’t available at a reasonable price.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
And we all know who that was.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Pitching is KING!
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Heavens to Mergatroid!!!!!!!!!!!!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Pound sand!
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Why?
He lives in a sand castle and wants us to destroy it for him because he’s tired of living there?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions
He still used that moniker when I joined BCB.
By then, it was utterly impossible to have a reasonable discussion with him.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Surprised at the acquisition < disappointed at the performance
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Hand up in air.
I’ll be glad when this trade deadline passes, no matter what happens.
And I remember the Nomar trade very well. Came as quite a shock to both me and the Red Sox fans in Vermont, but they for the most part told me they wished him well—until he got injured.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions
2B
i’d really like to see the cubs move theriot and give fontenot the chance to play everyday at 2B for the rest of the year. he’s put up a respectable 269/338/418 line in his career but has rarely gotten consistent playing time. he’s also been above average defensively at 2B overall. it would be nice if he could lock down the keystone next year and give the cubs another LH bat in the lineup. not to mention, the alternatives on the FA market at 2B this year are pretty slim, which has never stopped the cubs before.
2B
I too would like to see Fontenot play out the remainder regardless of whether or not Theriot gets moved. Last year was a disaster somewhat resulting from Lou’s desire to get more lefties in the line up. This year that seems not to matter as it applies to 2B and Theriot.
"Chicago Cubs fans are ninety percent scar tissue." - George F. Will
As Bad as I want a complete and almost total firesale...
My gut instinct is telling me a majority of these players are staying with us. We are going to be lucky if we can get rid of one of these contracts.
Phew. False alarm.
My stomach dropped for a sec when I went to the home page and saw that pic of Ted Lilly. I have been checking regularly to make sure he’s still on the team.
"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes
This is where the rubber meets the road Jim Hendry
this is where his talents supposedly lie. I never have been a Hendry fan, so I’ll hold my toungue and observe the great master in action. Sure, it’s not easy to deal in the bigs, that’s why you hire skilled people to do this. Is Hendry on of those skilled people? Hmmmmm, we shall see.
"Don't shed any tears. You think about this: Here I am, the grandson of a slave. And here the whole world was excited about whether I was going into the Hall of Fame or not. We've come a long ways." BUCK O'NEIL
by HotDogDude on Jul 29, 2010 8:55 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Piniero
He just went to the DL, likely for the season, and it’s possible the Angels could look to replace him. With Haren on the team now, I think Lilly would fit in nicely in that Anaheim rotation. What do you guys think?
In a sort of unrelated topic….I think the Cubs should try to pick up Cliff Lee and Adam Dunn in this next off season.
THE FONZ HAS ARRIVED!
Cliff Lee is going to want a lot of money and a full NTC.
You willing to do that?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to offering someone like Cliff Lee
A decent deal this offseason. Although we may not be competing next year, it’s not often you can get a guy who is a true ace in both leagues. He has unbelievable – literally, I don’t believe them – walk numbers, and he’s a horse.
I wouldn’t go long on the years, but I’d be interested, at least.
Absolutely
Cliff Lee is an elite pitcher. The Cubs haven’t had an elite pitcher since maybe Prior (and calling him that is a stretch and that was possibly for one and a half seasons). The Cubs have been in need of that one ace pitcher who absolutely dominates when you hand him the ball. Zambrano was supposed to be that guy, but I don’t think he had the mental capacity to handle that pressure. Who knows maybe with Lee on the team alot of pressure is removed from guys like Z and Dempster. I would love that 1-5: Lee, Z, Demp, Gorz, Wells, Silva/Marshall.
Ownership, only a year in and after a losing and disappointing season, has to do something.
I know that starting pitching for this team has been, for the most part, outstanding, but their is always room for someone like Lee on any team. Who else would be a legitimate team for him on the open market? Rangers, Yankees, Redsox…..I can’t think of other teams that would want to pay him.
THE FONZ HAS ARRIVED!
Great post!
I agree whole-heartedly with getting CLee and that BigZ never had the mental makeup to be the #1 starter. His best years for the Cubs were when he was not supposed to be the #1 starter, but he was the defacto #1 because of injuries (2004-06)
That's an interesting point and I think very valid.
I thought more about it before he started going crazy on the field, when for a little while his performance had just declined. Makes a lot of sense that his instability has changed his performance…and that the pressure of having to be the best pitcher on the team or an ace would impact that.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Lee would be a nice addition,
but how much longer can he continue to pitch at an elite level, would he take a 4 year deal or want more? He did dominate the NL last season though.
A rotation of Lee, Demp, Gorz, Wells, Silva wouldn’t be too bad heading into 2011. Keep Marshall in the pen, he’s lights out and we don’t really have anyone to replace him there. He’s had his chance in the rotation and was OK, Gorz IMO, is a better starter.
And Prior was absolutely an elite starter in 2003 and 2004. Arguably could have been the Cy Young in 2003 and was great in the playoffs until, well I just don’t wanna go there.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
CLee will want
and get a CC Sabathia type contract of 7yr/$160million. I think he’s totally worth it.
He'll want it
But I’m not sure that he will get it in the new economic environment. We will see. You could be right.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
In that case, I don't see the Cubs signing him.
He also, may not be interested in coming here…
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I don't think he'll be able to ask for that amount
unless the Yankees pay for him. He is also two years older than CC.
THE FONZ HAS ARRIVED!
Absolutely - he's a difference maker.
Recent history has pretty conclusively shown that you’re a lot better off paying top dollar for true difference-makers than you are paying 80% of top dollar for 2nd tier guys.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
No, I don't think that makes any difference.
What other teams do with other players does not impact the Cubs. There still has to be a willing trade partner and a good return for the Cubs, or they won’t make the deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I wouldn't say it makes no difference...
it’s a simple concept of supply and demand. If the supply of starting pitchers goes down, the demand (or willingness to pay) for one of those starting pitchers goes up.
If teams were interested in Lilly before but less willing to spend (via prospects) before due to the availability of multiple pitchers, they may be willing to part with a bit more quality now that the supply has been reduced.
That obviously doesn’t mean that a deal will get done. But to say it makes no difference is a limited viewpoint. It definitely strengthens Hendry’s trade position.
That does depend on whether offers get sweetened.
They still may not be sweetened enough. Ted Lilly is still the same pitcher he was before the other deals got made. Unless teams are completely desperate, they’re not going to overpay for two months of Ted Lilly.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well obviously it depends on whether offers get sweetened...
My entire point was that, assuming someone is interested, then a reduction in the supply of options will increase (sweeten) the offers. As I implied in the last paragraph, it may be that not enough sweetener is added. If that’s the case a deal doesn’t get done. But that’s different than saying the Oswalt deal doesn’t make any difference. It might not make enough of a difference, but it almost certainly makes some difference.
In other words...
these discussions/moves aren’t made in isolation. Teams are almost certainly talking to multiple teams about multiple players, and have Plan A and Plan B for their needs. So saying that “what other teams do with other players does not impact the Cubs” is short-sighted.
If teams that were interested in Lilly were also interested in Oswalt, then the signing of Oswalt will absolutely have implications on discussions about Lilly. Again, it might be that the Oswalt doesn’t impact those other teams enough to get a deal done (i.e., they don’t sweeten their offer enough). But that doesn’t mean that the Oswalt deal is irrelevant to the Lilly discussion.
I think if Hendry makes a deal today...
It’ll be one that comes as a total surprise without any media rumors precluding it.
Despite some random speculation based on positional need at 1B, it took about 10 days for MLBTR to figure out that the Angels and Rangers were having real discussions for DLee.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
I think if Hendry makes a deal today… It’ll be one that comes as a total surprise without any media rumors precluding it.
Couldn’t agree more.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Seems to be par for the course for Hendry.
As much as people try, they’ve never really gotten a good read on him. Which makes the trade deadline that much more thrilling (or painful) for Cubs fans.
This
But only for major players. When it comes to the guy in his last season, the guy stuck at AAA, the reliever who is out of options, Hendry is usually willing to signal his intent (e.g., trade Jake Fox to a team that will give him a shot) and follow through. For that reason, I would expect the Cubs to make a couple of moves before or just after the deadline, like dumping Nady or releasing Howry. Not the stuff of trade rumors, to be sure.
Somebody take Aramis' bat off the restricted list, please.
A question for you
Hasn’t it seemed as if Hendry recently has gone overboard trying to find that one nugget of gold that other teams have dismissed as worthless? Howry for one. Nady for another. Tracey also comes to mind. None of them have worked out and it seems the money would have been better spent instead on one well regarded player with no health issues. It seems to me that with the salary restrictions on the team, that may be the modus operandi moving forward.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Well, that would be a surprise, all right.
But I doubt that will happen.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm just surprised I haven't heard
more about the Phillies going after a closer.
BCB - We have our own dictionary!
There aren't really any closers available.
Capps was mentioned, but I think the Nats want to keep him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Zambrano and $15M to the Bears for a 3rd round draft pick?
Would that be enough of a surprise? ;-)
Bears traded their top 3 picks for 2011
For a toupee for Lovie Smith and Terell Owens.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Jul 29, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
TO wears a toupee?
Could have fooled me…….;-)
Didn't say it was a GOOD toupee

[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Jul 29, 2010 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Volunteeer to drive Theriot..
..I would fly the plane to wherever he was traded. Just to get him out of Chicago.
Have him jump on my back - I'll piggyback him out of here.
Seriously – his playing time is getting ridiculous.
Oliver Perez
…is he salvagable?? I have never been impress with Perez…I wasn’t with Silva either. Seems like trading Z for him is a trade of bad contracts, perhaps? Throwing in Castillo with Theriot would make sense with Castillo being a free agent at the end of the season.
No
Saw him pitch against the woeful D-backs last week and he was awful. Only the bad D-Backs lineup saved him from giving up run after run. The D-Backs have no clue as to what to do at the plate. Almost any other team would have driven Perez out of the game.
The Mets announce team tried to spin “Perez gets out of another jam” but in reality the Diamondbacks are clueless at the plate.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 29, 2010 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions
My two cents on the Lee thing first
If I have any disappointments from it, it doesn’t involve Lee invoking his 10/5 or his NTC. It’s simply that Lee being traded might well have improved our minor league system slightly while leaving the option of bringing back Lee on a short, incentive based deal. Now it looks like Lee will not be back, and the Cubs got nothing for him, so they will be weaker moving forward.
That being said, I don’t honestly see a single Cubs player moving in anything other than a PTBNL deal. Management would be crazy to trade starting pitching that’s done so well this year, and the position players we’d like to deal will not be dealt because Hendry doesn’t have the mind control over other GM’s like Ken Williams had over J.P. Riccardi.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
FOR AL
Thanks for what you do. I enjoy reading BCB everyday. I’m mystified by, and disappointed in, the people who jump in here and pick fights with you.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
I'd like to echo that in part.
Going to other blogs in SBN I see a big dropoff in the amount of effort and the amount of time the owner/writer/moderator spends to create posts, threads, and moderate. The amount of fans is surely not the only dropoff. It takes a lot of time and effort for this blog to run as smoothly as it usually does. I may not be as mystified by those who have disagreements with you, but I would like to thank you for the work you do here. It is much better run than the others I have seen.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions
And Al,
I must say I had a great time last week at Wrigley Field in the bleachers. Any time I’m in town, and the Cubs are playing, I’ll let you know and sit with your group.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
You are always welcome.
So is anyone here, no matter how many disagreements we’ve had.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Wow
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Teachers Pet
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
Al and I certainly do not always see eye-to-eye
but this blog does a much better job of keeping out the worst nonsense, the kind you see on the yahoo boards for example, and Al gets the credit for that.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 30, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I appreciate that you've said that.
While as you say, you and I don’t always agree, we always have our disagreements in a civil way. That’s all I ask here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
We don't need no stinkin trade
The 2010 LOLCubs can still win the division.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
pass the pipe
Carlos Silva lemonade: made from freshly squeezed Milton Bradley lemons. -- the Jim Hendry kook book.
can't have both, can you?
one thing that has been bothering me the last few weeks is the number of quotes about teams not wanting to add salary and at the same time reports about how teams don’t want rental players. seems to me the only thing on the market at the deadline is high-priced veterans and soon-to-be free agents. gotta pick one or the other.
Which is one reason...
… you may not see much activity this weekend.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Mets out of the running for Lilly
Joel Sherman what a freaking joke that mets front office is. They can’t even add about 4 million to their payroll
by LouPiniellaIsRetiring on Jul 29, 2010 9:52 AM CDT reply actions
I posted this link somewhere up the thread.
Bet they won’t jump all over you for saying “out of the running”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Congrats on completely missing the point
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm still waiting for you to point out the other 100 pitchers of the same value Gorzo has
that the Cubs could replace him with.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Regardless of who departs the Cubs
I think Hendry needs to do whatever he can to bring in Kila from the Royals organization at all costs. That kid is freaking amazing, and he’s completely ignored and lost in the shuffle there.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 9:58 AM CDT reply actions
I haven't seen the kid play
But I do remember the last time all of BCB had a consensus on the player Hendry should get.
That was Fukudome.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
But Kila would be playing for the MLB minimum
Just a little different from 4 years/$50M + NTC.
Maybe we could trade for him with the agreement in place we get to negotiate his contract before hand.
That way we can preemptively offer 4 years/50M +NTC?
I wanted Fukudome and Kuroda both
not one or the other. Also, there’s a difference between Dome and Kila, in that Dome excelled in a completely different environment than the one in the US. Kila has been a tremendous player thus far. His hitting looks really good, he walks a ton, doesn’t commit many errors, and appears to be ready for the big stage. The Royals, for some reason, have completely ignored him.
To put it another way, forget about this kid, and think about that being Starlin or Colvin playing at the AAA level for the Royals. The Royals have chosen to completely ignore those guys, so they’re just stuck at AAA.
A quick look at his stats shows that so far for this year, in AAA, he’s straight up ridiculous.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs can't be the only team wanting Kila, and I don't know WHY the Royals would part with him
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
They aren't doing anything with him
their current 1B should be their DH, and he’s ready for the major league level now. I’m sure there are other teams that will be trying to make a play for him.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
That’s why JH should get a jump on the other GMs and move quickly. While other teams are looking to move payroll or make a playoff push – we should be looking for 2011 and do NOT need to wait until the offseason to do so. I’m so tired of reacting rather than being proactive. We have 6 of 8 starting position players pretty much a lock for 2011 – get to work on the other 2 asap
Problem is, being REACTIVE is Hendry's M.O. and has been for his entire tenure
One of a myriad of reasons I’m absolutely furious he still has a job.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
my only hope is that Ricketts reins him in this offseason
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Hendry being reigned in doesn't do much for me
He needs to be cut loose. He has very little idea how to build a team.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree
but it seems that Ricketts wants to stay with him :( So I’m trying to find a way to make lemonade. I realize it’s a stretch :)
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah that's my feeling exactly.
I don’t want him as GM, but if he does stay then I have to hope he does a better job than I expect for whatever reason.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions
You understand there are huge differences from that situation to this one right?
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Islands in the stream...that is what we are...
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
That is a good point
In all the trades being slung around, there are angles where the Cubs should try to be a buyer – they have holes to fill for 2011 and beyond. Young, blocked talent from other farm systems may be a reason to offer prospects for prospects. But they mostly should not be buying veterans, unless something really crazy happens.
Couldn't agree more
I don’t know if I’m as sold as some on Kila, but 2011 is the PERFECT chance to see if he can cut it in the majors with the Cubs. Hendry should be spending most of his energy trying to make this happen before another teams wises up and attempts the same. Forget about waiting until the offseason when Lee’s gone – try getting it done asap. If he pans out, what a nice young offensive core for this team Soto, Colvin, Castro, Kila.
Then look for a 2B with some on-base skills.
About The Riot
I get the anti-Riot sentiment – the TOOTBLANs and fielding errors are maddening. But at the plate he’s batting .285, which is a heckuva lot better than most of the team. Sure, he can’t hit for power, but he does get hits. Given the rest of the season, I bet he would top last year’s effort (284/343/369), perhaps come close to his great performance in ‘08 (307/387/359). This July, he’s hit in 17 of 22 games, including 9 multi-hit games. I don’t think he gets a fair shake around here, but I do understand the frustration.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
But he is 31 and there is really no hope of additional improvement
So even his best is not that good….
Let's put it this way
Let’s say you’re a great speaker. Wonderful inflection, varying of pitch, can keep audience interest no matter how dull the topic. Yet, you can only successfully speak to kindergartners (hit singles). When you get in front of any sort of real audience, you wet your pants (TOOTBLAN, striking out with RISP, fudging up a DP). Does that make you a great speaker? To a 4 year old, sure. To an adult, no.
Is Theriot a good player? Sure. Relative to the rest of the league, which is what matters? no.
AVG is not the best measure of hitting performance...
Theriot is the second-most likely player among the regulars to make an out every time he comes up to the plate (his OBP is lower than everyone but Ramirez). And he decreases his value further by providing no power at all. And then he adds to it with bad baserunning and mediocre defense.
There’s not a lot positive to say about Theriot this season.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
^This^
Also he never walks!
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Add to that if you have a good chance of getting thrown out
Once you do get on base, then your average doesn’t mean nearly as much. He’s not a kid anymore. What you see is what you get. His average going up or down isn’t going to change his faults. That he took that ludicrous stance in the media that he was too aggressive to look for walks cemented this to me. If he had a chance at changing his philosophy and increasing his OBP in the future, it was dashed to me then. He won’t change on this team for sure.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem with your idealism
Is the fact that you’re missing the entire problem with Theriot. Yes, he’s hitting .285, which is just fine, but batting average not only doesn’t tell the whole story, it hardly tells anything.
After his .285 avg, you need to look at what really matters – his .321 OBP and his .329 SLG. What that tells you is that he gets on base less often than an average player, and nearly every single one of his hits is a single. He’s only 75% in SB, so he hurts more than he helps while trying to steal (need 80%+ to benefit the team and outweigh the risk). He’s got a .650 OPS and is now playing some pretty bad defense with average range.
He has absolutely no shot at raising his OBP .070 to get to his ‘great’ ’08, which he still only put up a .745 OPS
I think he'd make a great back up
The fact that he was lead off and shouldn’t have been nor a starting SS showcased his short coming as a ball player.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Theriot is pretty much terrible
but you’re wrong about the SB% break-even point. It’s roughly 75%, although it’s debated and I’ve read as low as 70%. Link
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Jul 29, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough...
Obviously I don’t know everything – I tend to regurgitate certain “facts” i’ve read, but baseball is played on the diamond, no one can tell when a stat is at its break even point, per se.
Wrong
You guys are a little too emotional about his OBP – i’m sure you all are in love with Colvin, and his OBP is only .325 – not much of a difference there. Just sayin’ on a team that can’t hit, he’s one guy who can. I’d rather have a man on first than have the bases unclogged and tidy (see: Baker, Dusty). On SLG – This has truly become a decadent society of baseball fans if people are angry about Riot hitting too many singles.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Wrong
You’re comparing apples and oranges. Colvin has a .325 OBP, but also is batting .267, meaning the difference between his AVG and OBP is .058 compared to Theriots .036. Colvin is also criticized around here for his lack of patience, so you’re wrong there as well.
Beyond all of this, you’re also missing the whole fact that Colvin is slugging .547, an entire .218 higher than Theriot. This means that he’s producing at the plate and making the most of that OBP.
We’re not complaining about too many singles, Theriot is only batting .285, we’re complaining about the fact that he can ONLY hit singles.
Wrong again
Your first point – so Colvin’s BA is lower but his OBP is virtually the same as Riots, meaning… what exactly? So Colvin getsHBP, IBBs or BBs to get his .325 OBP. Riot hits singles.
In my original post, I noted that Riot “can’t hit for power.” However, I consider getting singles ALSO to be “making the most out of an OBP.” Getting doubles or singles and “getting the most out of an OBP” aren’t mutually exclusive. It sounds like you’d be a Theriot fan if he could trade 14 of his singles for 14 doubles (would bump is SLG to .401). But who cares, since he got on base anyway?
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Um, because he'd be on second base 14 times instead of on first?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Right
But again, Riot got on base anyway, which beckons my original point – Riot isn’t THAT bad.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
but how does that compare to other lead off hitters in the NL?
His OBP and CS rate?
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Is that the right comparison?
Not sure how many games riot has been in the lead off spot this year…
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
He's been the lead off hitter for many games this year
and played in most of the years.
Besides recently besides Dome who else has lead off this year up until about a week ago.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Theriot at lead off
Cubs total games – 102
Theriot leading off – 56 games
Theriot batting 2nd – 18 games
splits
Theriot’s leading off a game – .182/.196/.218 56 PA with 1 BB and 2 doubles
Theriot leading off an inning – .275 /.308/.302 156 PA with 6 BB and 4 doubles
That sucks
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
Hey bro
he hits the baseball though, what up now?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I wish we still had Aaron Miles
He sure could hit the ball…to 2nd base.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Jul 29, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Ouch, those stats on leading off a game are past awful
May as well just start the game with the #2 hitter and one out….
There is no looking past stats like this.
These are beyond awful.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions
you understand its BETTER to be on second base right?
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Of course...
I’m just surprised that a guy who gets on base at all, via a bunch of singles, is so disliked. Doubles are a luxury vehicle, but sometimes an economy sedan can get you across the plate all the same.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
The point is...
He doesn’t get on base all that often. Neither does Colvin, but when he does, he’s hitting a lot more Cadillacs than Camrys.
Again
this wasn’t meant to be a riot vs. colvin comparison. I used colvin’s OBP to show that Riot’s wasn’t abominable.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, but you used it incorrectly and only proved WHY Theriot is terrible
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Alright then
Hate Ryan Theriot – you have every right in the world. I think he’s a decent player, and his statistics suggest that my thoughts are correct.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
No, ONE statistic, in a vaccuum suggest your thoughts are correct
but you have every right to your opinion
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
of course in order to form that opinion
you have to IGNORE almost every other stat he posts beside singles. But whatever
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
.285 BA
Hit in 17 of 22 games played in July. Had 9 multi-hit games in July… he really isn’t as bad as you think.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
let's look @ the rest of the year
If we look @ that ARam could also win that argument.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes he is.
He’s had a good month. Fukudome has a great April every year.
He’s nothing more than a below average major league player the rest of the season and he’s BETTER than Theriot
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
lol
now I really can’t take you seriously. if you’re in Nebraska right now, step outside a take a few deep breaths of that fresh air blowing across the plains.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
so since you can't prove your point
you decide to attack someone.
It’s not differing opinions, it’s how people act when everyone doesn’t agree with them.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Relax
Husker sounds really angry about Riot, I’m just sayin man, he isn’t that bad. I feel like I’ve sustained quite a few insults for offering some information about Riot. Do you really think Fukudome and his huge paycheck are better for the Cubs than Riot and his… what is it, like $2.8M?
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not mad at Theriot
But you’ve misrepresented your argument a couple of times now, all while trying to claim that Theriot is good. He isn’t. I’m not sure what Dome’s contract has to do with Theriot being a crappy player, other than you’re trying to move the goalposts
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
This is an irritating thing to me.
Not of Irish in particular. But a few on here say that people hate Theriot or think we believe he is the only problem on the team when we criticize his performance or don’t want him on the team. His mistakes are very glaring and repeated regularly. Blah blah blah…all the obvious problems he has.
Just because I call out his errors and don’t want him playing for us does not mean I “hate” him. That’s just a way to distract from being able to say I don’t want him here.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
ronny cedeno is hitting .349 in july
there, i win
by jesus christos on Jul 29, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
So he has proved he is a fine #8 hitter
Why do you want to put him at leadoff, where he is awful?
he obviously is
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
You're right
that Theriot’s OBP by itself is not abominable, but it’s below average. There are many different ways to be successful as a major league player, and Theriot is below-average at most of those at this point in his career. He did have a couple of acceptable years, but now that his skills should start to diminish as he gets into his 30s, his salary will rise which serves to decrease his relative value. Additionally, 2nd basemen are easier to find than shortstops, so his value has decreased on that front as well.
I don’t hate Theriot (although his quotes about refusing to walk make me angry), I just want you to understand that Theriot has outlived his usefullness as a starting player on a major league team like the Cubs.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Jul 29, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes
I agree with all of this. I just think Riot gets hated on a bit much for his level of pay and his output. I’m plenty fine with him going to the Rockies or anywhere else.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't give a rats ass
if a player is making millions or $1 million.
But if he’s proved to below average I don’t like him.
If you base your views on pay then thats your choice.
I would feel the same way about Dome if he made a million then $10 million
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Dome
Is more a detriment because of the financial burden. It is a much bigger deal… can’t move him, can’t afford anyone else.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
but my feeling towards them
as how they play are the same
both below average
big picture yes worse
but you are debating the point of Theriot being average as opposed to bad.
My discussion has zero to do with $$ he’s making it’s my opinion of him as a player. The only time $$$ was brought up was when you said the hitting coach was overpaid.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Theriot has Neifi syndrome
Neifi Perez was a decent reserve infielder (and actually a good fielder) but Baker kept trotting him out daily including batting leadoff. People just got tired of seeing him.
Theriot now has the same issue. Piniella keeps playing him daily including at leadoff because evidently Lou forgets about Fontenot when making the daily lineup. Theriot should be a reserve player. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him as a backup infielder somewhere in the majors next year.
Thats been I think all of our points all along
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
Was about to post this.
Theriot: .321/.329/.650 in 2010
Neifi: .297/.384/.681 as a Cub
I don’t understand what Lou’s doing playing Theriot everyday when a Fontenot/Baker platoon is available.
If there’s a question about Colvin’s value, imagine what would happen if Hendry put him on the market. Phone would be ringing off the hook for a 24-year-old, lefty, good athlete.
I don't know what those numbers are next to theriots name
but they are not his 2010 stats
these are .285 /.321/.329
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
OBP/SLG/OPS
you have BA/OBP/SLG
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Jul 29, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
But they don't get you across the plate "all the same"
This is what you seem to be trying to desperately to ignore.
He is disliked because not only is he extremely lacking in his skill set, but he doesn’t freaking care. This is a guy who should be utilizing the fact that he has ZERO power by attempting to take walks, fine tune his base running, and improve his defense. Instead he says things like “looking for a walk is wimpy”
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Jaramillo
Our luxuriously paid hitting coach said he prefers aggressive hitters to passive ones… said he can’t teach guys who aren’t looking to hit.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Theriot was this way before Jaramillo got here
But nice attempt at scape goating.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Also the freaking MANAGER has said he wants Theriot to be more patient at the plate.
So Jaramillo either didn’t get the memo, or you’re taking his comments out of context.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Lou told him to take more pitches
and he didn’t. That shows he ISN’T TRYING TO IMPROVE
What does how much the pitching coach get pays have anything to do with it? Theriot had other hitting coaches you realize
So besides Colvin small sample size stats, what facts do you have ?
Or are you just enjoying people disagreeing with you?
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I've used
a pretty large swath of stats in defense of Riot. Read up through the whole convo. As far as Rudy goes, just repeating what i heard on WGN sometime in the last week. It’s shocking how you guys pass that kind of judgment about someone you’ll probably never even meet – there’s nothing to suggest that he isn’t trying to be the best player in the MLB. He wants to win, and his .285 BA proves it ;)
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
what stats did you use
besides colvin’s, theriots ba & his July stats is a large swath?
I have re read it and don’t see any others? You keep presenting his ba. and July. That is cherry picking.
He may want to win, but when a manager says more than once that he’s told a player to take more balls and said player doesn’t. I view that as something negative on him.
You use a statement from a batting coach that has been here half a season as opposed to career stats of Theriot.
He may be a swell guy. I don’t dislike him, but I also don’t think he should be starting for the Cubs.
Maybe you know him personally, as I said earlier. I may not like him as a player, but people have to remember these are real people when it comes to trades and have real lives.
But obviously you either know him or think he’s swell for some other reason. So I’m not going to continue this b/c you aren’t going to change your opinion no matter what we write.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Brother
And I mean that, we’re all brothers (and sisters, for the ladies) here, as Cubs fans. I’m not saying Riot is great, or should stay on the Cubs, but for his level of pay and output, he probably doesn’t deserve the hatred he gets on BCB. I did mention stats from ‘08 and ’09, and pointed outright that his SLG is an issue ("can’t hit for power"). If he stays, let’s hope his July numbers stick for the rest of the year.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude, put the shovel down.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
so you've spent all this time
not thinking he’s a good player or wanting him to stay on the Cubs but defending him b/c an online forum see’s the weaknesses in his game?
Wow
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
More than that
There a lot of vitriolic attacks, as characterized by a lot of things said by people in this conversation. He’s average – so put your pitchforks down.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
He's the worst everyday infielder in the major leagues.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Bromance is in the air...
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
It’s not like you’ve insulted anyone at all
Pot meet kettle kettle meet pot
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
He's not average...
he’s way below average. This is why people are responding so much.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude - you can't go against the anti-Theriot sentiment on BCB
period. It’s too strong a movement.
He’s clearly THE problem with the 2010 Chicago Cubs and he needs to get out of baseball until he makes up his mind that he wants to improve.
woah woah woah...back that wagontrain up partner....
where is anyone making the case that Theriot is THE problem with the 2010 Chicago Cubs?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay,
So Aramis’ early-season struggles, Derrek Lee’s cold bat, and Grabow and Howry and Schlitter are all Theriot’s fault?
Seriously, I may not like Theriot, but to say he is THE problem with the Cubs in 2010 is an incorrect statement.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
What these two said.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
If Riot was a bench player your argument would hold merit
But for an everyday starter and usual leadoff hitter HE IS FREAKING TERRIBLE.
The fact that he has refused to fine tune his game to better fit his skill set makes him goddamn horrible.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Totally agree with you 100% husker
Rec’d
When your manager says take more pitches and you don’t. I’m sorry that doesn’t make you a good player in my opinion even if you have a fine batting average
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
It's interesting
That you guys are convinced that he doesn’t try to fine tune his game. Obviously, none of us know how hard these guys try, or what goes into their training every day. It’s important to note that his July stats suggest that he has improved dramatically from May/June
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
He's goddamn SAID he won't finetune his game.
In these types of situations, I’ll take their word for it.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
It’s interesting that you have no facts to support your argument besides Colvins small sample size
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Come on
read the whole thing – i’ve used plenty of stats. The argument is that Riot isn’t THAT bad. I think I’ve supported that statement sufficiently. What’s really interesting is how many panties get tied in a knot when one person goes slightly against the grain.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
It has nothing to do with you "going against the grain"
It has to do with the fact that you’ve used exactly ONE stat (Singles) and claimed you’ve used lots of stats to prove that Theriot is anything above “bad”
It also has to do with you then claiming others were WRONG because they actually looked beyond his batting average
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
actually 2 stats
one BA & also July’s stats. Maybe to him that is plenty.
We have tried to show him w/ facts why we feel the way. He feels strongly that his facts are better than are facts.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Really
Just try reading some of the posts and contributing information to the conversation, rather than just picking apart words and distorting what I’ve said. You know I’ve used more than just one stat. Cheer up man, Riot’s probably off of the Cubs anyhow.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
The panties aren't bunched because you've gone against the grain
It’s that the stats you’re using to support your assertion don’t really provide any decent backup. The stats you’ve used are just not really indicative of whether or not Theriot is good.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Jul 29, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he's good
he’s just not a terrible as a lot of people say. What would you like to see his OBP and SLG at? Reasonably.. what’s passable?
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
so you are debating
he only ok as opposed to terrible.
Your putting a lot of effort into that.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
It's worth it
because it’s tough to see a thousands of fans irate, and often mean, about a guy who is an OK player. Yes, sometimes below average, but it’s not like the guy has a multi-year, multi-MM deal.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
But he's not an okay player...
He’s far below average. And he’s worse than the alternatives at his position, but he gets all the playing time.
As for the Fukudome comparison, people also don’t like him. And Fukudome doesn’t play anymore anyway. So your comparison is moot.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Someone
said that Dome was better than Riot. I had to address that.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
He IS better than Theriot...
he’s just not as cost-effective as Theriot.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions
How about comparing to league average?
he’s below average in every meaningful offensive category.
OBP:
MLB average – .328
Theriot – .321
SLG:
MLB average – .406
Theriot – .329
So he’s below average at avoiding getting out, and he’s WAY below average at hitting for power. And he’s a bad baserunner. And he’s mediocre defensively. And more importantly, he’s probably worse than the alternative at 2B (platooning Baker and Fontenot).
Basically, the only good thing to say about Theriot is that he isn’t all that expensive. But he’s more expensive than his alternative, and he’s not as good as his alternative.
That’s pretty bad.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Part of the problem is...
… Lou’s insistence on batting him leadoff until he found out that Colvin did a pretty good job there.
Theriot was a horrible leadoff hitter. Hitting eighth, he’s passable, but nothing more.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Finally
I’ll rest my case.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I said as a starter I didn’t like him and leading off I didn;t. That as a back up he’d be ok
You still defended him.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
rest your case?
That wasn’t the case you were making.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
It helps his original argument
That’s all that matters to him obviously. He’s arguing for a player he doesn’t want on the team for pete’s sake.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Except that Baker/Fontenot is still better
If you’re going to play Theriot (who is the worst offensive regular on the team), I agree that he should be at the bottom of the order. But even in the 8th spot, he’s not the best option we have at that position.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
100% agreed.
Just saying that IF Theriot plays, he has to bat 8th.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed completely
And saying that a position player has to bat 8th is not a compliment. It’s kind of an insult.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
No he doesn't
Tony LaRussa would bat him 9th……
Yep
Sort of matches with my very first post. I did say that “he can’t hit for power” – but, you can’t take away from the fact that his 110 hits tie for 33rd most in the league. That’s not bad.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
110 hits is just OK. Not great, but not terrible either. Marlon Byrd, the only other Cub on the Top 50 hitter list, has 116 hits (ranks 13).
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Marlon Byrd also plays defense and has been known to advance to 2nd base on some of his basehits....
and makes more outs with his glove than he does on the basepaths.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't compare Byrd to Theriot...
…According to WAR, which is a much better way of evaluating a player than hits, Byrd is one of the 10 most valuable players in baseball this season.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Excuse me, his WAR ranks 12th in
the Majors, 4th in the NL, only behind Votto, Torres, and Holliday.
Byrd is playing at a completely different level than Theriot.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Facts
Who needs that crap?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
The straws....
you’re grasping at them.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
This is some nuthugging here.
I’m almost impressed.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
lol
there’s also some truth going on here. The Riot-haters have to give credit where it’s due: he gets hits, and he gets more of them than any other Cub except Byrd.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Look honey...I may get drunk and falcon punch you in the va-jay-jay from time to time...
but you’ve got to admit that I DO drive a nice car.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
you said va-jay-jay :}
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Jul 29, 2010 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions
And he gets out more frequently than any other Cub regular except Ramirez...
which makes complimenting his hit total sort of an empty compliment.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
NO ONE
has denied that Theriot gets hits; that would be stupid and wrong because there is indisputable evidence to that end.
What we are arguing is that you’re overvaluing his batting average because it’s not baked up by extra base hits nor a lot of walks.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Jul 29, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
You are highly delusional.
I suggest you not watch baseball anymore, or at least, I suggest you stop pretending you understand it in the way you think you do.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
You wouldn't have gotten so much trouble
here if you didn’t cling to labelling people with stuff like Riot-haters. You would get disagreed with on what exactly his stats mean, but adding people are mean to him and hyperbole when you don’t even want him on the team just makes this whole thing ridiculous.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure how that matches with your original post...
he’s below average in every meaningful category. You’re isolating one attribute (hits) to say he’s tolerable and ignoring the fact that he’s bad everywhere else (which makes him intolerable).
He hits a reasonable amount of singles. He does nothing else even remotely close to acceptable offensively. Thus, he’s no good.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Meh
He’s ok. For about $3MM, I’ll take 110 hits. His 9 errors aren’t insanely out of step (3 at SS and 6 at 2B)
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
You can't make an error on a ball you can't get to. Why are you on Theriot's jock?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Errors aren't the best way to evaluate fielding.
You know that, right?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
thanks for amusement
If now you are going to try and tell us he’s an ok starting second baseman also. :)
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
He's an above average SS.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Those TOOTBLANS are probably
just fine as well given his low salary. Sheesh.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Clearly you don't understand valuing offense...
hit counts are a TERRIBLE measure of offensive performance.
Theriot makes outs more frequently than the average player. And he doesn’t do anything to make up for that.
Sure – he gets a reasonable amount of singles. Great. He does basically everything else WAY below average offensively. That more than negates the value of getting a reasonable amount of singles.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough folks
I think he’s an ok player. He’s earned his paycheck, and he does hit the baseball. More than we can say for a lot of other Cubs this year.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Tell me, what is his "hits the baseball" stat
as compared to others, since you like referencing that the most, and not any of the other dumbshit stuff that happens before or after the “hit the baseball” occurrence.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
now your making this into how much he makes
If that was your point why didn’t you bring it up like an hour ago?
Instead of telling us just how we should appreciate the job he’s doing.
Interesting change of focus from I have lots of stats to prove he’s good to he’s ok for the $$ he’s making
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Repost
Of my original post – the very first one – just so you can refocus your anger:
I get the anti-Riot sentiment – the TOOTBLANs and fielding errors are maddening. But at the plate he’s batting .285, which is a heckuva lot better than most of the team. Sure, he can’t hit for power, but he does get hits. Given the rest of the season, I bet he would top last year’s effort (284/343/369), perhaps come close to his great performance in ‘08 (307/387/359). This July, he’s hit in 17 of 22 games, including 9 multi-hit games. I don’t think he gets a fair shake around here, but I do understand the frustration.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
He doesn't get a "fair shake" because he sucks.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
my anger???
Ummm I have been giggling at the sillyness of your arguments while I’ve been getting stuff done this morning.
Trying to show you the holes in your the statements your making.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
You posted this already.
You’ve cherry-picked stats to “prove” your point. He’s hitting .304/.326/.402 this month, which is better than the previous months, but still below what would be considered “good”.
.285 is a halfway decent BA. That’s true. However, combined with the rest of his numbers, it means almost nothing.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yup, even in his "good" month...
he’s been just below average (league average OBP is .328, league average SLG is .406).
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
You just don't get it...
And I’m sorry for that.
First, he’s got almost ZERO chance at topping last year’s stats. Mathematically, it’s going to be nearly impossible. There is absolutely no chance he comes within .50 OPS points of his career year.
And he doesn’t get a “fair shake” because, when you look at his entire performance (rather than cherry-picking stats), he stinks.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
He has 19 RBI so far this season.
Where does that rank in terms of the Cubs this year?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions
It's ok to change your mind
Originally, I would have agreed with you, I even made a FanShot lamenting that Theriot receives criticism disproportionate to how bad he actually is. But after reading what other people have noted, Theriot may “get hits” but they are generally nullified by his inability to take walks, make good baserunning decisions, hit in clutch situations, play defense etc.
That's the thing, my friend.
It’s not more than we can say for a lot of other Cubs this year!
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Jul 29, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
but at no point
up until a few minutes ago did $$$ play any part in this discussion. His only comment about $$ was that the over paid hitting coach said he wants players to be aggressive as a reason for Theriot swinging at so many first pitches.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
b/c he was trying to prove
that it wasn’t Theriot fault for not taking walks since that is what he heard the hitting coach say the other day
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
and then he started insulting
us for not accepting his opinion.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
You gotta be kidding me
At no point did I insult anyone. The one guy tried to say Dome was a better deal than Riot and I had to laugh.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't say Dome was a better "Deal"
I said he is a better PLAYER. As Madison pointed out, you are the one who trotted out dollars into this discussion and that was only recently.
Dome is overpaid and average at best.
Theriot is a BAD baseball player who is scrappy.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
No he didn't.
He may be wrong about Theriot, but he’s been nice about it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
The mentality of a crowd
It is so interesting how intense people get when you defend a disliked player! It’s been fun. And, to be fair, you have to “cherry pick” someone’s best stats if you are trying to explain their merits. I acknowledged his faults to begin with. Anyway, the only insult i saw was when the South Bend guy said i was totally delusional and should quit watching baseball. But hey, he’s from South Bend ;)
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
do you know what cherry picking means?
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
b/c you kept telling us you were using lots of stats
now your saying that you were cherry picking his best stats to make an arguement.
None of this was my idea of intense. You kept telling us we were angry.
When we said you were cherry picking you said you were using a variety.
Now I wish I had as much time on my hands to make an argument that I kept changing so that I could keep my point when it was getting disproven.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure
Happy to help you: basically, it’s when you choose only the facts that support your argument, while ignoring facts that don’t. As I said, I acknowledged Riots faults straight away, but my argument essentially had to be an exercise in cherry picking his best stats, so as to draw people into a discussion about Riot’s merits, not his faults.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
so what exactly was your point then?
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
As a general rule...
if you have to cherry pick stats to highlight a player’s merits, it’s probably not worth the effort.
Especially when you have to cherry-pick stats that aren’t even very impressive.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
he must have time on his hands
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
People get intense when you cherry-pick stats to come to a faulty conclusion...
You took a single stat and expanded that to suggest he’s average. That’s the issue most of us had with your posts.
He’s not average. He’s not close to average. He’s average in one attribute, but baseball isn’t played on single attributes. You have to take it all together. And that’s what you don’t seem to be doing.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I find it kinda sad
that coming to a forum to get people his idea of angry is his idea of fun.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
You have
some extra time on your hands too, ya know. And that wasn’t the point – you chose to take issue with my opinion that Riot is an ok player, and that he has merits. That’s your problem, not mine.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
And I love how you're asking us to ignore...
- Lack of OBP
- Lack of SLG
- Lack of fielding range
- Average speed combined with a low-to-average baserunning IQ
- among other baseball flaws
to look only at an attribute (singles hit) that would fit in very well the Kansas City Royals, who have the “emptiest” batting average in the league?
And you’re ok with that?
I'm home for the day
I’m doing housework, bills and making pie this afternoon.
You seemingly just wanted to get people “angry” by doing this. This to me is sad.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
What kind of pie?
I LIKE pie! But by the time I got to Madison from Cincinnati, it would probably be cold. Or gone. :-(
yes he hits singles
If that is what in your opinion makes an average player good.
If you getting rise out of people does…. like I’ve sad thats sad if thats where ones attention is coming from.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Pie
Invest your emotions into baking that pie. This is just a baseball discussion about Theriot and you’re trying to distort it into something personal. But, at the end, you’ve agreed that he has at least one merit. I’m glad you found something positive to say at the end of it all.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
You're missing the point here Irish...
Singles = 1 base
Walks = 1 base
Hits = Batting Average
Hits + Walks (HBP) = On Base %
A hit is the same as a walk in terms of value towards getting home to score a run. Your claim is that Theriot is one of the 50 best players in the game at getting a hit. Our claim is that he is one of the 50 worst players at the game in taking a walk. At the end of the day, you need to add both of those together, since it is what creates value in a player – how often they get on base. Since Theriot is above average on one, and well below average on the other, he has come out to be blow average overall at getting on base. No one cares how many singles he hits, because how few walks he takes completly negates that stat.
Now, this may not be the end of the world if when he actually got hits, he ended up on 2nd base, 3rd base, or with a homerun even 20% of the time. The fact of the matter is, he has one of the lowest slugging percentages in the league because he simply cannot get bast 1st base. There is very little value in a player like that.
Yes, he has one merit
and only ONE merit. Which makes him a BAD baseball player. Joey Gathright had one merit too. (Two if you count jumping over cars)
He’s not a good player either.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
you keep thinking that I am investing emotions
Unless you count humor, from the giggling I’ve done as some of your sillyness an emotion.
Really you want me to get emotional about debating something…. not going to happen over Theriot. LOL
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Why is it so hard for you to talk about your feelings Maddy?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
not quite sure how to answer that :)
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
"He's from South Bend"
This reminds me of an exchange in one of my favorite films, “Sullivan’s Travels”.
They are discussing the merits of a particular film:
LeBrand: It died in Pittsburgh.
Hadrian: Like a dog!
Sullivan: Aw, what do they know in Pittsburgh…
Hadrian: They know what they like.
John L. Sullivan: If they knew what they liked, they wouldn’t live in Pittsburgh!
Weren't you banned?
Ok.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Bummer.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Seriously
why make not one but two declarations that you’re leaving and then come back 10 days later?
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe he missed us
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Personally
I miss his dynamite analysis of Chad Tracy.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess I just needed
a reminder as to why I left in the first place, and you have provided that.
Thank you.
And it’s been considerably longer than 10 days, but that is neither here nor there.
so it wasn't that you missed us?
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
YAY! Another declaration that you're leaving
I can put it in my collection
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe like Z
he’s trying to turn over a new leaf.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
and like Z, he's not REALLY trying to turn over a new leaf
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
we don't know that yet
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
he's already come back and then declared he was leaving
so, yes we do.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Observation
the overt hostility that consistently flows from a select few posters on BCB is quite breathtaking.
I guess that is what emotionally investing in the Cubs can do to one.
What if all the leaves to turn over are dead?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
He did.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Time for a group time out
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 30, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
So how many of those base hits came in RBI situations,
Or after someone walked?
Trust me, number of base hits can be interpreted differently when one considers things like runners on base or inning or number of outs.
The straws are getting worn from your grasping at them.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Colvin hits home runs; Theriot only hits singles
Home runs are better than singles.
Therefor, with the same OBP, Colving is better than Theriot.
It’s not a terribly complex analysis.
It's not that I'm angry
It’s just that doubles, triples, and home runs are are SIGNIFICANTLY more valuable than singles, while walks are nearly as valuable as singles. So Colvin has been getting on base at a similar clip to Theriot, it’s just that Colvin is about as likely to be on second or rounding the bases as he is to be standing on first. Colvin > Theriot.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Jul 29, 2010 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Colvin right now is a small sample size
I didn’t dislike Theriot as a rookie or even his second year. It was when I saw lack of improvement that I started disliking him
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Colvin clearly has more potential
But my original point was simply that Riot isn’t THAT bad. But that’s my opinion… I’m a baseball fan who doesn’t mind a guy who hits a lot of singles and bats .285
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
But that seems to be all your looking at
For a starting 2nd baseman or SS who is leading off are all of the stats, ones you want of that player on a team who was play off bound 2 years in a row? Cedano seems to be the best Pirates can find, so it’s all good. But would I want him starting as a Cub?
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
it is your opinion, which is why I'm not sure why you keep starting off every one of your
arguments with “WRONG”
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Cute
But, useless post.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Not really, you keep claiming people are WRONG
because you have a different OPINION
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Which is
exactly what you’re doing. But, at least the other guys had interesting things to add to the conversation.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd be happy with no improvement from Colvin
If this is who he is, then he’s a very valuable commodity; especially while in his pre-arbitration years.
http://www.fivetoolfans.com
by mykalmorgan on Jul 29, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
me too
but to compare Colvin to Theriot I don’t think is fair to either of them. We are comparing apples to oranges.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Though I agree with you that theriot is not a bad hitter,
he seems to waste his “clutch-ness” for fielding (as in double-clutch).
His hitting for average is good, but seems to lack success when we need a RISP brought home (this is the ultimate definition of non-clutch).
You also forget that theriot has a habit of fading over the last 30 games of the year—I think this will probably make it very hard for the Cubs to move him.
Carlos Silva lemonade: made from freshly squeezed Milton Bradley lemons. -- the Jim Hendry kook book.
I agree - Ryan Theriot is not a bad player
He isn’t necessarily a good player, but he isn’t nearly as awful as everyone here claims. But that’s what happens when baseball fans think that OPS is the one important state for determining the quality of a player and that hitting home runs is the most important attribute of a player’s game.
Ryan Theriot doesn’t hit home runs and doesn’t have a lot of pop in his bat, but that’s okay – the Cubs don’t need him to be that kind of player. We’ve got guys like Soriano and Colvin to cover that. Big run producers are important, but you have to have players who get themselves into position to score those runs. Theriot has proven in the past that he can be that player. You don’t want your team to consist entirely of big burly home run smashers. Riot’s current hitting streak shows that he’s valuable when he has his head screwed on straight. He’s not costing us much money and he has value.
Pre your argument doesn't make a lot of sense.
I don’t dislike Theriot the man (although he seems a bit arrogant to me from watching him in limited sound bytes, but there is no way that I could really know him well enough to make any kind of judgment on his character.) However, Theriot the baseball player clearly doesn’t have much value. You said yourself,
Big run producers are important, but you have to have players who get themselves into position to score those runs.
Yet Theriot’s OBP is among the worst in baseball for a regular. He clearly isn’t getting himself in position to score those runs very often. Everyone here who says “Theriot sucks” agrees with you that we have to have players that can put themselves into position to score runs and that it isn’t important that everyone be a masher. However, if you aren’t a masher, then you do have to do something else (i.e. put your self into a position to be driven in) to contribute to the offense. Theriot just doesn’t do that enough to be statistically valuable to a team.
Now there may be other ways beyond statistics that Theriot has value to the Cubs such as baserunning, fielding, leadership, etc. It is my judgment that he is pretty bad at those too, but I might be way wrong on leadership. I don’t have a sound way to judge that.
But you certainly can’t say that Theriot puts himself “into position to score those runs.” He just doesn’t do that very often.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Hendry should have Lou bench Lee
for not giving back to an organization that handsomely paid him for many years. Isn’t he from SoCal? Also, do the Cubs get any compensation for him if he leaves? Or do they have to offer him arbitration for that to happen? He’s dreaming if he thinks the Cubs are going to resign him. Colvin meet 1b.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
Is this a joke??
Bench Lee for invoking rights he has earned as a player?? Who cares where he is from, he plays for the Cubs, and he has played here long enough to earn 10-5 rights. He didn’t want to move, the Cubs need to honor the committment they made to him.
Can you imagine the backlash, not only from the PA, but from FA all around the league if we were to bench Lee because he didnt want to be traded?!
Can Jimbo even do that?
Or is that statement more of I wish Theriot would sit on the bench for the rest of the year statements. Hell I thought after the 08 play offs the Cubs should have to give their play off shares to charities. They weren’t worthy IMHO.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm overstating my bounds
but I’m sick and tired of these aging, underproductive players holding the team back in some regard.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
by propheteer on Jul 29, 2010 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You and me both!
rec’d
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd love to blame the players, but it's not like they aren't trying.
There are so many factors that have caused this mess…. can’t single one out.
Too true
Everyone is to blame for this trainwreck zeppelin crash shipwreck.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
Not likely to get compensation for Lee...
If he’s a Type A or Type B free agent, then he’d be worth a draft pick or two if we offered and he declined.
However, given that his value is much lower than his arbitration value (which will be at lowest within 80% of his $13 million this year (i.e., $10.4 million mininum), he’d likely accept arbitration. Therereofr, it’d be surprising if we offer him. So if we don’t offer him, we don’t get compensation picks.
As for your suggestion for Hendry, I’m guessing that will never happen (nor do I think it should). Hendry prides himself on being a player-friendly GM, and I’m sure that’s noticed around the league. Pulling a move like that would be very harmful for player relations.
by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2010 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe the dumbest post ever
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
he corrected himself
but even if he hadn’t bet they won’t even make top 5 today LOL
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
True. But to his "doesn't Lee owe the Cubs" point,
I said in a post yesterday, loyalty from team to player and vice-versa rightfully lasts as long as the player’s contract. This is a necessary evil, as it is the only way to keep things black-and-white.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
That doesn't really disprove his point
“loyalty from team to player and vice-versa rightfully lasts as long as the player’s contract.”
Lee is still under contract to us, so by your logic, he DOES owe us something.
Just sayin’
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions
That's one strike and one ball for me
You liked my other post above.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
LOL
True. I actually appreciate your contrarian views; something that needs to be accepted here. But good luck.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Thanks
I was more like a shiny person before the disaster of ‘08. Afterward, I kind of lost my Cubbie optimism that’s so prevalent here.
"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.
If the idea is to bench Lee to punish him, that is juvenile and petty
There is absolutely no reason at all the commit to playing Nady or Hoffpauir instead of Lee.
But if the Cubs happen to acquire a young 1B, bench Lee the next day and leave him there. The team would need to see if the kid can play, Lee is gone at the end of this year, and 2010 is a lost cause.
Sad commentary on this season
Trade deadline speculation has been the most interesting thing for me. That and watching
Castro, Colvin and Cashner.
And Marmol
I think you have to include Marmol in there. He is kind of lost in the shuffle a lot, but has taken a step forward as an elite closer. And, his chase of the K/9innings record could add some excitement down the stretch.
Trade Lilly to the Twins. Trade Theriot to the Padres. Trade Fukudome to Japan.
Golly, I might be the best GM ever!
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
Say the Rangers come up with something to entice the Cubs for Derrek Lee.
If he would have waived his no trade clause, then I would have been a little pissed off. However, he was going to be traded to an average team so I don’t blame him that much.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
"The Cubs would be foolish to trade Gorzelanny"
I don’t agree with this. All of the things you pointed out about him are true, and chances are, the Cubs are better off keeping Gorzelanny than trading him. I’ll add the fact that he has made encouraging strides in terms of his K rate this year and last, suggesting that he may have made an important and real step forward, although he still gives up way too many walks.
All that matters is what the Cubs get back for whatever player they trade. If the player has more value to them than what they give up, it’s a good deal. There is not a single player on this roster who should be considered untouchable. I can only speak for myself, but I have absolutely no emotional investment in any of the players currently on the team that wouldn’t be written off if the return were good. That includes Gorzelanny, Starlin Castro, everyone.
All that matters is what the Cubs get back for whatever player they trade. If the player has more value to them than what they give up, it’s a good deal.
The Cubs could probably find such value for anyone on the roster, as you point out. However, sometimes the best deals are the ones you don’t make.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I just don't get how Tom Gorzelanny has become untouchable.
There are 100 Tom Gorzelanny’s in the majors right now. We have guys like Cashner and Jackson who are MUCH better.
If we can actually get something of value for Gorzo. I mean something of actual value, not a minor league middle relieve then you trade him. =
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah I get that sense, too
Sad fact is tha he’s one of the Cubs’ best SPs. That in and of itself should be alarming.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
There are 100 Gorzos out there in the majors?
Really? Name some.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Not to mention that he is cost controlled
which makes his relative value much higher.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
I'm still waiting for this list of 100 pitchers who make Gorzo so replaceable.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
It doesn't exist...
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Oh, I know
but if they’re going to make such a statement, they should at least try to back it up.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with you, completely, if anything...
…Gorz is one of the more underrated players in the league this season. The fact that so many scouts are looking at him should suggest other teams realize the fact he’s a steal (we got him garbage too: Hart, Ascanio) and has value.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Damn near every other 4th and 5th starter in the bigs
Have you actually LOOKED at his career stats? Like I said, he’s had a very good 3 months. I’m not convinced he’s that much better than his career ERA entering this season. If anything this is Tom’s M.O. he puts together one good season, then has 2 or 3 mediocre to bad ones.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
He's currently projected by Fangraphs
to finish the season at an estimated 10-8, 3.53 ERA, 3.53 FIP, 142 IP, K/9 of 8.3, BB/9 of 4.35 (which is still too high but can be fixed), and he doesn’t allow a lot of homers.
He is 28 years old, had a serious injury just 2 years ago, which he apparently has recovered from. He is cost controlled for a few years. Not to mention he’s received very little run support this season.
Looking at the stats, he’s better than most 4th and 5th starters in the bigs, at least this season.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Yes, so far this season he is. Which I have already said a couple of times.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
So, you really don't have a list of at least 100 guys
who will put up the same stats as Gorzo and cost as much or less than him? Because, that’s what I see you really saying at least a couple times now.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Pardon me would "quite a few" or "he's run of the mill"
have worked better for you?
Christ’s sake.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
He's really not run-of-the mill...
…he’s 28, had a very strong 2007 season for a really bad team, got hurt in 2008 had a bad 09, and seems to have recovered both in terms of health and performance. He’s also lefthanded, which increases his value and makes him even less run-of-the mill. If anything, Randy Wells is run-of-the mill.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
by tripdenten on Jul 29, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed, except...
… I think Randy Wells is a little better than that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Perhaps, time will tell, with both.
But I feel there are more pitchers out there who are similar to Wells than there are Gorz….
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
This is true
It doesnt make Wells run of the mill though.
Maybe so, Wells has had a tough year
but I need to see more from him I guess before I call him run of the mill. I was trying to make the point that there are a lot more players with Wells’ skill set out there than Gorz’s. So in that sense he is more replaceable.
But Randy does have the makeup of a real grinder/innings eater, I hope he continues to develop.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I made the comparison last year...
… of Wells to Kevin Tapani. If Wells could have that kind of career, we’d be real happy with him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I remember and have that in mind too...
…In fact I’m fairly confident you and I discussed that last year or during the offseason on this very site.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
More accurately, Wells has a very uneven year
He has had short stretches where he was very good and others where he was very bad.
AS for more guys like Wells out there than Gorzo, well yeah, a whole lot more RH pitchers around than LH ones.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 30, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
we're just going to have to agree to disagree on whether three months means he's above average overall
or whether he’s had three good months mixed in with a VERY mediocre career
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
As was stated, 2007 was a GREAT year.
He was hurt in 2008 and recovering/bad in 2009. He’s getting closer to his 2007 numbers now. No reason to think he can sustain close to this.
I guess so...
…Gorz had a really good 2007 season, which was his only full season in the bigs to this point. He pitched half a season in 2008 and got hurt, and only pitched 47 innings last season while he was recovering from his surgery.
Its hard to call that a career.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
The problem here is that there's no real mediocrity in Gorzellany's career...
He was pretty good in 2006 and 2007. Then he was awful in 2008 and 2009. And he’s back to being pretty good this year.
If you look at it collectively, it averages to mediocre. But you can argue that injury may have been a culprit during the bad years. The 2010 looks a lot more like his 2006 and 2007, which would seem to lend support to the injury argument.
Only time will tell.
Never said he was untouchable.
I wouldn’t trade him because I don’t think getting a couple of prospects, or a middle reliever, would be anywhere near his value.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
you're saying it would be foolish to trade him
without having any idea what they would be trading him for. In my book that’s basically declaring him untouchable.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
OK, trade him for Roy Halladay
But I don’t think the Phillies will bite. Oswalt generated a 3-4 starter and Haren went for warm bodies. It doesn’t look like the Cubs could get anything like fair value for Gorzelanny, and they don’t need the salary relief from monving him.
One disagreement
Jackson is struggling as of late in the minors mostly with the longball. Saying he is better than Gorzo who is having a decent season in the majors is a stretch. There is no guarantee that Jackson can or ever will be able to pitch in the majors as well as Gorzo.
If there was an edit feature on SBNation (hint hint owners!)
I would have edited that to be that Jackson and Cashner have a much higher upside than Gorzo does at this point.
You’re right, at the moment, Jackson isn’t BETTER than Gorzo, but he’s more talented. And I’ll stand by my assertion that Tom Gorzelannys are a dime a dozen
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Edit feature.
Hint hint — that’s what the preview button is for.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Excuse me, but the preview function only works if you don't change your mind
on how you want to word something five minutes after the fact. How many times this season have you edited something in one of your previews or summaries? You have that function.
I’m not openly campaigning for the edit function, but the snarky comments about previewing, coming from a guy who consistently has some variation of “I’ll change that” in damn near every post game thread is silly.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
The point is
IMHO the powers that be at SBN want you to think about what you are posting before you hit the post button. If you know you can’t change it you theoretically won’t post a bunch of crap that you can just delete after you hack everyone off.
by LT on Jul 29, 2010 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
The previews or summaries are posts.
I can’t edit my comments, either. Comments are supposed to be “in the moment” posts.
If you make a fanpost or fanshot, you can edit your own fanshot.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You can edit your own fanposts too.
Or delete them.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I've frequently wanted to edit my posts, as previewing them does take time.
And seems not worth it when trying to reply in a timely fashion in a conversation.
But if you would install an edit function on the blog, as much as it would clarify things and eliminate mistakes from those misinterpreting what you meant, there would also be those who would change what they posted and make arguments about what someone said originally a huge mess. I’d like an edit function so I can eliminate my mistakes, but I have to think it’s probably better no one can.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Sounds like a good thing.
I don’t know if it’s possible, but sounds like a good idea.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions
IF(PostRepliedTo=YES), PossibleToEdit=NO
I know that can’t possibly be the real code (one semester VBA one semester Java, so take what you will), but something that does that shouldn’t be too bad to write.
Yeah, you'd probably get a lot of:
“You said this.”
“No, I didn’t.”
“What? It’s right up at the top of this thread.”
::furiously edits post::
“Guess again, smart guy.”
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Uh, you can edit your posts even after you click "preview".
Trust me, I’ve had to do that numerous times to make sure a picture or a link was going to work in my comment.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
That's a careless statement,
as Cashner and Jackson have not done anything in the Majors, neither are ready to start in the bigs. Gorz has arguably had the best season amongst our starters and didn’t bitch and pout when he was moved to the pen.
He’s one of our better pitchers, if we trade Lilly, he becomes our #3, #2 technically, as he is a better pitcher than Wells. Just because Casher had a good half season as a starter in the minors doesn’t mean he’ll be an effective starter. And Jackson? Seriously? He’s done nothing to suggest he’ll be in the rotation anytime soon.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Remember Cliff Floyd? lol
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
Has Zambrano really been bad enough this year to eat a large part of his contract?
He has only started 9 games this year, and as a starter his ERA is 6.39. of those 9 starts there were 2 really bad ones. Opening day where he gave up 8 runs in 1.1 innings(he always sucks on opening day), and his last start against the Sox where he gave up 4 runs, and was pulled because he lost control.
In his other 7 starts he has an ERA of 3.81, which isn’t ace stuff, but its close to his career norm. Before being moved to the pen in April he was pitching pretty good since opening day, and the start before his blow up he gave up 1 run over 7 against a pretty good Angels team.
I just don’t really think he ever had a chance to get on a good roll this year, and if the Cubs sign a number one starter like Cliff Lee, or maybe even someone like Tim Hudson, and tell Z he is the #2 or 3 starter he might return to what he was before 09
by wfree0104 on Jul 29, 2010 11:38 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Excellent post
He also had an ERA of 3.77 in 28 starts in 2009. Is he the #1 ace we thought he was. Of course not. But has he been terrible over the last 1.5 seasons, the answer is a resounding NO!
The way the organization has yanked BigZ around this season from starter > bullpen > starter > restricted list > bullpen > likely back to starter before the end of 2010 has been one of the most short-sided decisions in recent Cubs history.
I’ll probably get flamed, but I hope the Cubs keep him and let him just start for the WHOLE season in 2011, instead of jerking him around. I’m fairly certain he’ll post a 3.7-3.8 ERA, which is not bad, and better than paying 75% of his salary for him to leave
Agree with this
With the caveat that he not be allowed to talk with any young player that we bring up… ;)P
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
I sort of agree with you IF we can stop leaning on him as our opening day starter
he might have more value at the trading deadline next year if he can actually show he’s still got something in the tank
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Good points
The Cubs have to find a trade partner who evaluates Zambrano’s season just like you have.
by AboutTheCubs on Jul 29, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't actually disagree with you, but Jim Hendry is still here
and we’ve had plenty of opportunities to get that real “ace” and haven’t done so. I don’t think this off-season will be the magic year we finally do.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Jayson Stark says he's hearing that the Cubs are getting a lot of action on Lilly
and he was pretty certain on Mike and Mike that Lilly was a goner.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about.
Jayson Stark says he’s hearing that the Cubs are getting a lot of action on Lilly
This part of the above comment tells about something Jayson Stark heard, although it’s somewhat vague.
he was pretty certain on Mike and Mike that Lilly was a goner.
This part of the above comment tells about Stark speculating and guessing. That is Stark’s opinion. Mine is that Lilly is staying. Neither one of us knows exactly what will happen.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I asked and you replied with your opinion way up the page.
This wasn’t me asking you again.
I know.
This was me trying to explain the difference between what a reporter has heard and what a reporter’s opinions are.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Althought his opinion on Mike and Mike may have been based on something he has been told
but I get your point. Nobody has a clue what might happen. I bet nobody saw the Angels in the Dan Haren running until the deal was actually announced.
I bet nobody saw the Angels in the Dan Haren running until the deal was actually announced.
Exactly.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
How could Dan Haren accept that trade? He must HATE his family.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Look at the team he was playing for...
He probably likes winning… and having good statistics that will lead to more money for him and his family in the future. Staying with the Diamondbacks (an irrecoverably broken franchise, if there ever was one) would accomplish neither.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Not sure if you are being sarcastic
but both Dan and his wife are from Orange County and when he was told of the trade, he immediately got on the phone and called his wife because he knew she would be delighted.
He later said that he had hoped that if he were to get traded, it was to the Angels.
And FWIW, he only had a very limited no trade clause. A list of 5 teams that he could not be traded to, IIRC.
I thought you left.
Weren’t there like five declarations that you were going away forever?
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait,
I want to find out if SWL was being sarcastic or not…
I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best
Do you want me to spoil the surprise?
Or should I just let SWL tell you?
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, based on previous SWL posts...
I think I might have a pretty good idea… But man, I really like surprises.
I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best
...

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
...

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
I apologize
I am off work this afternoon and was curious about the latest trade rumors and allowed myself to get sucked in.
It won’t happen again.
lol....
People who say they are leaving voluntarily forever never seem to mean it. See you soon ajazz.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions
My only prediction
is if Lilly is traded, there will be many people here complaining that Hendry didn’t get the same return that Haren or Lee received.
Theriot
Theriot – not seeing a better time to trade him than now. Somebody wrote that he would be an ideal backup player to cover 2B and SS. That’s right but…but he is too high up the salary ladder for that. It is practical to send him on his way now if they want to rebuild or want a better starting second baseman or need a lower cost backup. It is important to trade him if they want to change the complexion of the team for next season. They would have to find another second baseman though.
Theriot – not seeing a better time to trade him than now.
Sure — but who will take him?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Rockies?
Or is that rumor dead now?
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
The Rockies are in a tailspin and most people thought they were teetering between
being sellers and being buyers even BEFORE they lost 9 of their last 10 and eight in a row
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions
It would be
pretty wild if Riot got traded in the middle of the series. Plays for the Cubs Friday, plays against the Cubs on Saturday.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
West Virginia
That’s their state’s tourism advertising slogan.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
You do realize
Next up for the Rockies are our beloved Cubs.
by AboutTheCubs on Jul 29, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
How about Baltimore
They might have somebody waiting in the wings, but if not then it looks like they could use a SS.
by AboutTheCubs on Jul 29, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Why, they have Caesar Izturis?
Would they really want ANOTHER unproductive ex-Cub?
Sadly, probably yes.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
McFail loves Jim's castoffs
so it’s even money
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Where
Does Theriot rank in Cubs SS history in the last decade – 2000-2010?
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Rather
Where does he rank
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Considering the truly awful state of Cubs shortstops over the last decade?
It’s hard to judge. Neifi Perez played for two years here. And I remember when someone made a very convincing delve into proving that statistically speaking Perez was the worst player in baseball.
That was the same year Hendry re-signed him.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Above Cedeno and Ramon Martinez...
Probably even with Neifi (slightly better hitter, slightly worse fielder).
Worse than Castro. Worse than Gutierrez. Worse than Gonzalez.
So probably toward the middle/bottom of a not-so-illustrious list.
In fairness to Ramon, the master of Sacrifice Fly,
he was really a part time player and utility man. Otherwise I agree with you.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Yeah, I only included him because he got the most PT at SS one year...
But yeah, he was never intended to be a regular.
Did not know that.
I liked him, he was a solid player, and a good glove man who could get a hit or Sac-Fly off the bench. One of the few “Dusty Guys” that I actually liked.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Yeah, 2004...
We had a bunch of guys play a little:
Martinez
Gonzalez
Perez
Garciaparra
Ordonez
Martinez got the most starts at the position (57). Not exactly a regular starter, I admit.
Wow, what sad list...
…I have completely blacked out all memories of Nomar as a Cub, I’ve forgotten that he ever was.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
July 31st is my birthday
And I remember thinking what a wonderful present the Cubs had gotten me when they acquired him. What a lemon of a player he was here.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
My condolences...
…I remember the day, I had never been that excited about an acquisition in my life until that point (Cutler later surpassed that level) and was certain the Cubs would win it all that year…I was at Wrigley for Nomar’s first game too. Sad, Nomar was essentially finished.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Happy almost birthday...
Doubtful you’ll get a similar present (at face value) this year. But perhaps the long-term gain will be better.
Yeah, usually the trading deadline is a little more fun because of that
But this year all I want for my birthday is to get rid of Theriot and get something decent in return for Lilly
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe we'll sign Nomar to be
a backup? I mean he does “know” the ballpark.
(Sarcasm Font needed)
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
He would automatically be ahead of Theriot on the depth chart.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
And bat cleanup.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Possibly,
he used to draw a lot of walks, at least more than Theriot.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Taking walks is a reason to lead off?
Debatable.
Not on its own, but it
doesn’t hurt. Rickey Henderson used to take a lot of walks, but he also got a lot of hits, and stole many bases too.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Sorry, I should have added a sarcasm disclaimer
Walks are definitely a valuable trait for a leadoff man. It just doesn’t seem that the Cubs believe that (see, Corey Patterson, Juan Pierre, Soriano, Theriot, Colvin).
with Lou?
He’d play hurt for about two months, hit .120 and THEN go on the DL
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
He played baseball while wearing a Cub uniform and hat, sat in the Cubs dugout, traveled with the team and recieved his paycheck from them...
but he was never really a Cub.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
And he didn't play all that much baseball as a Cub either
like, maybe 100 games.
Ahead of Izturis, Neifi, Macias...
…probably behind Gutierrez and Gonzalez, maybe a push with Gutierrez. But before Gonzalez booted that ball in Game 6, he was a solid SS. Not sure where I’d rank Jose Hernandez.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Yeah
Riot has been fairly decent for us, hasn’t he.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
no it doesn't make him decent
makes him as crappy as the other ones where. Most of which shouldn’t have been starting either.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Decent for us
Decent for us
Ryan Theriot - one of the most fairly decent SS in the last 10 years for the Cubs.
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Damning him with faint praise...
like being being the 4th-tallest of seven midgets. Or little-people, whatever the preferred nomenclature is.
Hendry must love you.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions
No. We've simply had some pretty bad shortstops
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
He's PEAKED dude!
Ryan Theriot is sooooo 2008, the fact that he ranks ahead of Izturis, Perez, Macias, Martinez, etc….is nothing to brag about.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Just messing around
Sorry guys, couldn’t help myself.
Ryan Theriot - one of the most fairly decent SS in the last 10 years for the Cubs.
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Jose Hernandez was gone by that point...
Theriot was definitely below Gutierrez and Gonzalez (both offensively and defensively). I’d say he was on par with Perez (not as good defensively, better offensively).
Being on par with Perez is not a compliment.
Jose Hernandez was a Cub in 2003...
…he was part of the trade with the Pirates that landed us Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton.
He may have been a full time 3B at that point though.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
He was a 3B by then...
he started one game at SS for us that year. Alex Gonzalez was our regular SS in 2003 (141 starts), with Martinez as the backup.
correct, if memory serves we actually traded FOR him that season
and brought him back as a third baseman. I remember because quite a few people were like “THIS is the trade that is supposed to put us over the top?” And then Jim pulled ARAM and Lofton out of his hat.
I sure wish we could get the 2003 Jim Hendry back
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
That's right,
off the top of my head, I’m not sure where we got him from, but they did trade for him in June to help the offense, which of course did not work, and then traded him in July.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Yup...
Hernandez for Bellhorn I believe.
We then turned around and traded Hernandez and Bobby Hill for Ramirez and Lofton.
My god I was right
How sad is it that I can remember what team Jose Hernandez was playing with when we acquired him in 2003 off the top of my head, but I have to write down my fiance’s birthday?
Jose “Strikeout Machine” Hernandez
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Priorities intact...
(ducking in case my wife senses this post)
Well, we did trade for him, but not to be a starter
Ramirez was also acquired from Pittsburgh that year, and he was the starter for us.
even his mental make up isn't really that bad...
he hates to lose…. more than most it seems. the two times that he really made an ass of himself were in 07, right before the team went on a great run, and this year, when it has been very clear that this team has greatly underperformed. Even when he gets on his teammates I’d like to think that its because he expects more from them.
on the bright side…his velocity has been down the last couple of years, from 6 years of 200+ innings. He will be only 29, and maybe all of the time off this year will be good for him, and he can be the productive pitcher that he has been most of his career
I'm sorry, but his mental makeup is BAD
It’s not just about the truly ridiculous blowups, it’s also the little meltdowns he goes into when the inning isn’t going right, and we go from having given up 2 runs, to 4 or 5 and he can’t throw a strike. Perhaps this anger management is helping with that, but until I see it, it’s just lip service
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Anger Management is a made up term. It's simply a byproduct of modern psychology built on the false idea that personal behaviour is other people's fault.
Pretend things aren’t real.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh my goodness, Bobby Knight. You're in this class also?
Yeah its my first day.
Working on the anger problem?
Anger? Isn’t this sexaholics anonymous?
"I knew there had to be a place where the game could be fun again. I found that place. It's called Wrigley Field. It reminded that if you love the game, it will love you back." - Andre Dawson, HOF speech 7/25/10
Thats true in the way they are using it with Z
But it can work, but the thing is is not a 2 week thing or something that can be forced on you. Much like any other problem, you have to take responsibility for it. Then you have to want to change, for yourself not for your baseball team or any other reason. You also must discover the root cause.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
Zambrano’s anger management course seems to be more about saying and doing the right things to get on the baseball field again, much like Milton Bradley’s.
I do believe some people can be taught to handle their emotions better.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
...
I do believe some people can be taught to handle their emotions better.
Yes, they usually learn it in Kindergarten.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
but there are people who struggle with it more than others
That do need actual help to deal with it. But we give free pass to someone repeatly b.c they can pitch. That the rest of society likely won’t get a way with.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
More often than not....
a person can lean to deal with it on their own if they have to actually suffer consequences, but yes I agree that there is a minority of the populous that does need real emotional counseling.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay, then I'm officially confused by your seemingly contradictory statements
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions
please provide the statements that contradict so that I may address them or apologize.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions
okay, these seem pretty contradictory to me
“Being unable to control your temper doesn’t require anything other than maturity and self-control.”
“there is a minority of the populous that does need real emotional counseling.”
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Stick the word "typically" in the first quote...
between the words “doesn’t” and “require.” Doing that makes them no longer contradictory.
yeah, my first statement was a bit too black and white....
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude, "behaviour'?
I’ll be disappointed if that’s just a misspelling. Spend any time eating fish and chips?
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Bangers and Mash
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I've wanted to know what bubbles and squeak meant.
Haven’t looked it up though cause I know I’ll be disappointed in the real result.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions
well, I don't think that's remotely true.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Why isn't there an Apathy Management?
Being unable to control your temper doesn’t require anything other than maturity and self-control. Our society has basically allowed people to devalue those 2 things to the point that we think it takes a “program” to attain them. There are people with emotional problems, but those aren’t the people being targeted by the “Anger Management” Indu$try.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Being unable to control your temper doesn’t require anything other than maturity and self-control.
Easier said than done.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Really Al? Really?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, really.
You need the sarcasm graphic if you’re being sarcastic.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You have a very low opinion of people then.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Did I say EVERYONE needs that?
No, I did not. But as you correctly noted above, some do.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes some people really need emotional counseling...
but the generic “Anger Management” patient is very rarely one of those people.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I've got to ask, serious question, not trying to be snarky
do you work in the mental health profession?
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I work in the field
and I really think that “anger management” is a bad term used to describe it. Typically, people with anger problems have a problem controlling their emotions in general.
I feel like the expression “anger management” makes people think it’s all about not getting mad when it is to help people realize that they have a problem and help them to balance.
People, in general, have an incorrect opinion/view about themselves and therapy is usually designed to open their eyes to how they truly are behaving.
To say that all they need to do is to take responsibility for their reactions is like saying an alcoholic just needs to put the bottle down. History has shown that it takes much more than common sense to solve serious mental issues.
Good information....I don't work in the field, but I have several friends who do, both with adults and children...
and all of them have made it clear that the programs that are sold as “Anger Management” are little more than nice ways of getting people to learn how to say “I’m sorry” in fancy ways and pretend to be contrite AFTER they’ve blown their stack.
To say that all they need to do is to take responsibility for their reactions is like saying an alcoholic just needs to put the bottle down. History has shown that it takes much more than common sense to solve serious mental issues.
Yes, but I’m not saying that’s true for 100% of people…I’ve acknowledged that there are persons with real emotional problems/issues and both need and benefit from professional help.
The “Anger Management” thing is a bit like the “ADHD” thing…..it’s real and valid…and used as a crutch and excuse by too many people.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I got raked over the coals by a poster here
For suggesting that athletes and celebrities do that in addition to alcohol problems. Surely there are a lot of people with valid emotional and alcohol problems. But there is a large amount of celebrities and athletes that use those programs as a crutch or excuse to do whatever they want without consequences beyond attending a program for a short period of time. Are you a hot teacher having sex with underage boys? attend a few AA classes. Are you an athlete beating your gf or cheating on her repeatedly? attend some addiction classes and it’s all fixed. Yes these classes can and do help people, are a good idea. But too many people do use them as an excuse for living their lives as they did before without further consequences.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
There probably is, it's just not called that
“Being unable to control your temper doesn’t require anything other than maturity and self-control”
Yes, and sometimes people need help learning self control. I’m not going to argue this point any further, clearly you’re very much sold on your opinion, and have decided that a one size fit all view of society is the right one.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
No, you're misunderstanding my point of view.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
calm down, use self control.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Neither one of you picked up the Monty Python reference.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It has sadly been a long time since I watched any Monty Python
I need to rectify that
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
good morning! ::ding!::
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best
Stop it, I'm ticiculous.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
I get it
And agree with you. Seems like Z’s self control decreased as his pay and notoriety increased. I bet he was a different guy before he made it to the bigs.
Ryan Theriot - one of the most fairly decent SS in the last 10 years for the Cubs.
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions
With an 88-90 "fast"ball, his mental makeup doesn't matter
He’s going to get hit. His mental makeup might not matter if he could still hit 96-98, either. But it looks like he can’t.
that would be a really interesting stat to find out
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I was just thinking...maybe D. Lee knows
or other players that refused trades..etc
by cozmotaylor123 on Jul 29, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Half of this this thread was devoted to
discussing how we discuss things. Anyone else see a similarity to having an arguement with your wife/girlfriend?
Sorry to seem sexist, but you all know what I’m saying is true.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
you may not like to have those discussion with her
but doesn’t it make your life easier???
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
It makes it seem longer, for sure
Ha ha ha
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you think you're helping with this comment?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Take it easy, champ.
If you don’t see my point, I can’t help you.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Hide
Before he really goes after you.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Tell me more about Theriot's ability to hit the ball.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you think your post helps the situation of discussing how we discuss things?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Seriously?
You’re more bored than I am
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Simple question. A yes or a no is fine.
You’re wasting your own time by typing more than you need to.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Told ya
lostinthevines, run for your life.
Best Cubs Moment: [reserved for whatever I do on the night they win the World Series]
Worst Cubs Moment: Attended Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS on October 1, 2008 - day before my birthday - heard a fan scream "It's really happening!" when DeRo blasted the 2 run shot, only to hear the same fan say a few innings later,"I'm leaving - I'd rather win in a bar than lose inside."
by IrishCubsFan on Jul 29, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
No doubt!
Back to the “arguing with your wife/girlfriend” point, huh?
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
ok not sure since I'm female if it also makes me sexist
but I think lost had a valid point there saying that.
It is similar to that I think. But I don’t think that is a bad thing either to have discussions about things like this (ok I’m sure that being a female has something to do with that thought)
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
My point is that
things can be discussed ad nauseum with no resolve
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
true
but I thought it was amusing that the only female (now Katie is here so I am 1/2 of the females) saw you point and thought yeah he has a point.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
That wasn't lost on me at all!
I appreciate the irony.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
See SWL
I can discuss my feelings. LOL
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
OK
Yes
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks for making the board a better place then.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jul 29, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Anytime!
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions
ALWAYS a "No." I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid.
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Just make sure you don't follow the "No"
with “It’s the fat that makes you look fat.”
"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes
Then,
Yeah your mom can really be annoying, I agree…
Neither has a chance of coming back on you lol.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
a smart woman never asks that
b/c she might be able to tell by his first reaction what he actually thinks.
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
But your shoes do go with your comment absolutely.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I vote we send all the "bickering bloggers" to bed without dinner!
Carlos Silva lemonade: made from freshly squeezed Milton Bradley lemons. -- the Jim Hendry kook book.
without the make-up sex afterwards
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 30, 2010 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Can I raise a practical question at this point?
Are we gonna do “Stonehenge” tomorrow?
"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes
I believe it's a "This Is SpinalTap" reference
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions
In ancient times,
hundreds of years before the dawn of history, an ancient race of people… the Druids. No one knows who they were or what they were doing…
I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best
We had a model of Stonehenge on stage that was in danger of being stepped on by a dwarf!
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Funny - she doesn't look drewish
"I'll take one in the mouth over the eyes any day". - AJ Pierzynski
by lostinthevines on Jul 29, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
No, they were Drewish Drewid.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Seemed fitting in this thread.
If you haven’t seen it it’s hard to explain. It’s an anti-climatic question after an argument that caused the manager to storm off and quit.
"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes
Hi katie
**waves***
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Sleet really pisses me off.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Two words: Freezing Fog.
I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best
Thank the Heavens
I thought this day would continue to be a bashing session of Derrek Lee. Fortunately for all involved, BCB is back to normal today. Just the usual non-game game thread of pummeling Ryan Theriot until he’s Flat Riot and is carried around by kids on vacation for photos ops.
Nothing to see here, move along.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
OT: Oswalt to PHI DONE
HOU Gets:
LHP JA Happ
+ 2 Younger guys
PHI Gets:
RHP Roy Oswalt +11MM to pay his salary
(on MLBTV – no link, sorry)
That's what, about half of what was left on Oswalt's deal?
Pretty good deal for the Phillies for right now.
If Happ is healthy, a better deal for the Astros going forward.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I like Happ as a ballplayer
And the part about facing him four or five times a season isn’t one that thrills me going forward. He could be a nice 3 or 4 for them.
(disclaimer: from my hometown)
as do i
played HS baseball against him.
by Coz_Bulls_Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions
If the two guys were Gose and Villar as rumored
then Philly really gave up very little. I’m not big on Happ long-term.
If anyone is holding out hope that Lilly will bring back good quality, this should end that thought.
Those two guys _are_ Gose and Villar.
MLBTV was so focused on “Roy Oswalt to PHI for 3 Players” that the names barely came up but once.
And Happ is actually a pretty prized PHI pitcher (remember they didn’t want to give up either Happ or Drabek to get Lee last year), and one of their few younger pitching chips.
Happ is already 27
His minor league numbers are ok but nothing special. He was Philly’s #9 prospect heading into last season.
Happ will be an ok #4 starter but considering the Astros threw in that much cash I don’t see it as much of a return.
Last year a 2.93 ERA
This year a 1.76 until his injury (career 3.11) entering his prime years. 23 starts last year with 3 CGs and two shutouts. Slight control problem this year but injury and small 3-start sample-size, and for his career 159-84 K/BB split. And I hate wins as much as anyone, but last year, 12-4 and 2nd in ROY voting. WAR last year of 4.1.
Not saying he’s something special, but he’ll be a serviceable #3 or #4 lefty for them.
I don't like Zambrano personally, but...
…there is good reason to think that there is a lot of flukiness going on in his season.
His velocity is reportedly down, but his K rate is just fine. Above his career average. His BB rate is right around where it normally is, and the K/BB ratio is better than it’s been since his salad days in 2003-04. His HR rate is up, but in no big way (as if one could tell in 55+ IP).
What stands out is his BABIP: a whopping .377. I guarantee you that that’s a fluke. In whatever combination it’s due to crappy defense behind him and bad luck versus a tendency to give up hard contact, I am quite sure it’s mostly the former two. His career BABIP is .284. He’s probably had 15 extra base runners on balls in play in 55+ innings.
The guy has annoyed me with his lack of composure since the beginning, and it may indeed be his undoing. There could well be issues along those lines that we haven’t even heard about. But when it comes to his actual pitching, it hasn’t been that bad, and from my perspective, it looks like the Cubs have over-reacted horribly. I’d like to see what he can do with a new manager and a fresh start next year.
me too
Along as that new manager is for a team other than the Cubs
"Actually, Major League Baseball is more like Neverland
And the Lost Boys don’t have to ever grow up. Some do, anyway, but that is not a universal characteristic"
by Madison Cub Fan on Jul 29, 2010 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs absolutely overreacted horribly they mismanaged that situation so badly it would be funny if it was any other team
I would not MIND Zambrano back as long as he isn’t a centerpiece anymore. If we go out and get another starter who can be our opening day “ace” of the staff.
Zambrano always seemed to be happiest when he was the #3 guy behind Wood and Prior.
Having said all that, I really don’t want to have to play the “is THIS the year Zambrano stops being a douche?” game any more and if we can get something for him, I say let him reform himself with another squad.
by HuskerCorner on Jul 29, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Bringing him back to the bullpen is not a solution that’s going to make anyone happy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So what kind of deal
Should the cubs expect? A Milton/Silva like deal?
by LouPiniellaIsRetiring on Jul 29, 2010 5:12 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Zambrano is no Milton Bradley
Although it is the Hendry’s SOP to talk a player’s value down and then be forced to trade him for pennies on the dollar.
Putting him in the bullpen is a horrible idea, just as it was three months ago. He should be a starter, and with Lilly likely being on the way out, he’s probably the third best Cubs starting option next year. I can’t imagine a situation where the Cubs fill in the rotation to the point where he is reasonably the odd man out.
When you've enabled him for so long,
Expecting you’ll be able to change that relationship and expect it to work is pretty unrealistic to me. And with his salary, given he could contribute to a team, it’s a damn shame.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Z = Dick Allen
talent over-shadowed by anger
Carlos Silva lemonade: made from freshly squeezed Milton Bradley lemons. -- the Jim Hendry kook book.
HWSNBN to ... well, anyone for a PTBNL.
I don’t really care who, just get him out of Wrigley Field permanently.
I had the misfortune of seeing that air raid siren on July 21 at Wrigley. The fact that so many people think he’s a mascot is just silly.
Let him be the mascot for another team, preferably one in the minors.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 7:02 PM CDT reply actions
The twins are out of the running for Lilly
Tweet. The dodgers appear to be the frontrunners now.
by LouPiniellaIsRetiring on Jul 29, 2010 7:22 PM CDT reply actions
Why trade anyone?
There’s a chance that whoever replaces him could turn out to be worse than what we have now! Unless we have a guarantee from God Himself that the next guy will be better, we should default to fear and trembling and assume it’s too risky.
Status Quo all the way!
Jim Hendry
Official MCM Pessimist.
Oh, I'm sorry; did I poke a hole in the echo chamber?
by The Jade Scorpion on Jul 29, 2010 7:29 PM CDT reply actions
We've already got TJ for that thanks.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Seems TJ11 has hacked another account.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2010 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Stealing my thunder!!!! LOL!
Tom Ricketts is leading us to a title this year!
I can’t believe just how much JH is doing to improve this team!
Could a GM of the year be far behind!
More like a weak drizzle here.
Don’t infect the others lol.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 29, 2010 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions
In a tweet
Jon Heyman said Mets don’t want to trade Thole for Lilly.
If we can’t get a Thole level player, then just hold onto Lilly and gamble on Type A. I’m not huge on Thole – he’s better than a Clevenger type, as he has a bit more pop, but he’s average behind the plate by most accounts. There’s a chance he could be a passable starter, but eh.
Yeah.
Depressing too. Seeing contenders making trades because they are able to get to the playoffs. And also because they have payroll space to make them. That we weren’t able to shed parts and get some salary relief just shows what we already knew…this team is awful and no one wants them…save perhaps Lilly.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Jul 30, 2010 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions
we all
know lily is gone by today,and maybe theriot. lets hope they can improve the team for next year. who knew this2010 cubs team would be this bad.maybe after this washout season is over somebody can figure out why.

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