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Zambrano Walks Entire Bay Area; Cubs Lose 27th One-Run Game Of 2010

Did you stay up to watch the end of the Cubs' 4-3, 11th-inning loss to the Giants last night?

If you did, you:

  • are one of the last remaining diehards thinking the Cubs can get back in it because they have a mathematical chance;
  • live on the West Coast or a time zone even farther west than that, or
  • were at AT&T Park along as part of the announced sellout of 41,943.

Actually, the Cubs played a pretty good ballgame Monday night (Tuesday morning in many time zones; the game ended just before 11 pm PDT), if you could ignore the seven walks Carlos Zambrano issued in his return to the rotation. That tied a career high for Z. He threw more strikes than balls -- barely, 49-46 -- and got the support of a couple of double plays, so he allowed just three runs. Maybe "just" isn't the right word, because in the bottom of the fifth, the Cubs caught a break when Buster Posey's double bounced into the seats. Edgar Renteria, who would have scored easily from first base, had to stop at third and the Cubs still led 2-1.

Not satisfied with this bounty, Z wild-pitched Renteria home with the tying run.

Star-divide

Z was permitted to bat for himself in the fifth and contributed a wacky infield single to a rally in which Tyler Colvin drove in a run to give the Cubs a 3-2 lead and put Z in position to register a win.

And here's where I don't understand major league managers' seeming obsession with using as many relief pitchers as possible during a game. Justin Berg relieved Z and had registered a pair of outs while allowing a single to Travis Ishikawa. And then, Alan Trammell (filling in for Lou) decided to yank Berg for James Russell.

Why do that? Why? Just to turn the switch-hitting Andres Torres around to hit righthanded? Does the matchup mean that much when your pitcher has a decent rhythm going? True, Torres doesn't hit lefties that well. But seriously -- when your relief pitcher is throwing well, just leave him alone! The lefty-righty matchup obsession, as well as the refusal to use relief pitchers for more than one or two innings, is something that I hope the next Cubs manager throws out of the manager's arsenal of tricks. Get middle relievers you can use for three innings -- then you can get rid of that seventh reliever and have an extra bench player, who could be useful.

Naturally, Torres drove in the tying run. And there the game sat until the 11th inning. The Cubs didn't even pull out their usual "let's get guys in scoring position in the late innings and not score them" trick; after that sixth-inning run the Cubs had only three baserunners, none making it past first base. One of those runners reached on a rare catcher's interference by Posey (Colvin in the ninth; he, too, was stranded).

Trammell refused to use Carlos Marmol, though Marmol was warming up; instead, the 10th and 11th innings were thrown by non-prospect Marcos Mateo, a 26-year-old righty making his major league debut. What was Trammell saving Marmol for? Pinch-hitting? Well, maybe, because the Cubs had no position players left. Geovany Soto's shoulder has now put him on the disabled list and Derrek Lee, whose grandfather is ill, was placed on the bereavement list. That means D-Lee will miss a minimum of three games and a maximum of seven. Welington Castillo will replace Geo, and Micah Hoffpauir fills in for D-Lee.

Anyway, Mateo gave up a pair of hits and had a pair of K's in the 10th inning and the game might have ended there, except for a nice relay throw from Colvin to Mike Fontenot to Koyie Hill, who tagged Ishikawa out at the plate. Imagine that -- a play at the plate where a Cubs throw actually beats the runner and the catcher makes the tag AND holds on to the ball.

Pardon my cynicism. Mateo, who is the 11th rookie pitcher to throw for the Cubs this season (and 13th overall), stayed in the game. The Cubs were down to Marmol and Casey Coleman as available players. Three hits and a sacrifice fly later, the game was over.

I wound up sitting right in front of Len & Bob's broadcast position; they, along with a number of fans around me, seemed to take a dim view of Bill Walton and a couple of others (including Grateful Dead drummer Mickey Hart) leading "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" on kazoos, part of the Giants' celebration of "Jerry Garcia Night". I would have liked to get one of the sweet-looking bobbleheads they gave away, but apparently that was limited to people who bought some sort of special ticket that was sold out weeks ago. And then they made people with the bobblehead voucher hoof all the way to the top deck and stand in line for the bobblehead. Why don't teams give promotional items to everyone?

It was also strange, after being at Wrigley many times this summer on tropically humid days and nights, to have to wear a sweatshirt and jacket to a baseball game. By game's end it was getting a little bit cold.

The Giants, in contention, have been drawing well and passed the two million mark in home attendance with last night's crowd, making the ballpark concourses much more crowded than I recall them in my last visit in 2007. Of course, that had a lot to do with the Giants' 91-loss season that year... a mark the Cubs are headed for in a big hurry, with their 11th loss in their last 12 games.

The good news, if any, is to see how quickly a 90+ loss team -- the Giants lost 90 in 2008 also -- can turn things around. In the meantime... this team is quickly turning into the Iowa Cubs, almost literally. Maybe they should recall the manager from Des Moines, too.

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Anyone want to see how a 90+ loss team can turn in around next season (redo)?

The Cubs in 2006 lost 96, but in 2007 went to the playoffs. It can be done, especially with our size of payroll.

Viva la Cubs Révolution!!!

by Chanman25 on Aug 10, 2010 8:33 AM CDT reply actions  

I'll be called names for this.

But I agree with you. Not only can the Cubs do it, they have done it three times in the last 12 years:

1997: 94 losses. 1998: playoffs.
2002: 95 losses. 2003: playoffs.
2006: 96 losses. 2007: playoffs.

Other teams have done this too — and several teams with losing records last year (White Sox, Reds, Padres) are all in position to make the playoffs this year.

Anyone who thinks the Cubs can’t make the playoffs in 2011 ignores baseball history. It happens all the time, even with teams that look as bad as this one.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

I guess I wasn't aware 3 times in 12 years qualified as "all the time"
Anyone who thinks the Cubs can’t make the playoffs in 2011 ignores baseball history.

It’s comments like this that will get you called names far more often than saying you THINK they can.

It’s fine to be optimistic about next year, but don’t basically call people stupid if they think there’s little chance it will actually happen

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Didn't call anyone stupid, now, did I.

However, this does happen all the time. Did I say it happens to the Cubs all the time? No, I did not. But it most assuredly does happen all the time. I don’t have time to list all the occurrences since the wild-card era began in 1995. Go look. You will find many, many teams who have done this, in addition to the three Cubs teams.

And yes, I’d say making over three 90+ loss teams into a playoff team in ONE offseason is a significant accomplishment.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, anyone who ignores history is generally not someone who is remarkably intelligent

Again, be optimistic, don’t insult the intelligence of those who don’t share your rosy view.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wasn't my intention to insult anyone.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

But he insults/argues with

almost everything you write. My god it gets old. Maybe he should start his own site where he thinks he can be right all the time.

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Aug 10, 2010 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hm...

there’s another poster who does that…hmmm…

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 10, 2010 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just one? ;-)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Aug 10, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes there is and

he shares part of your name.

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Aug 10, 2010 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

You must mean...

Santoswoodenleg ;-)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Aug 10, 2010 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

haha...nope not even close. ;-)

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Aug 10, 2010 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

LOL.

I never did thank you for providing me that laugh the other night when I got him good after his question here.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

No problem

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Aug 10, 2010 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

With a huge Dunn level bat at First, we should be able to win 85-88 games in 2011

We absolutely have to get a big bat to even think about turning it around. However the Central is always fairly winnable.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep...Dunn at 1st...

…and get rid of everyone in the bullpen NOT named Marmol or Marshall…a few different bench guys…one #1 or #2 starter and this team will be right back in the middle of it next year.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

My thinking is that some of the young bullpen arms develop

Marmol
Marshall
Grabow
Caridad
Cashner
Samjay
Jeff Gray/Justin Berg/???

Looks like a fairly decent young pen. Lots of live arms down there.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why in the HELL ...

would we want to count on Esmalin Caridad again?

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not a case of "counting" on anybody

I’m just saying that there are good in house options down there.

Surely there will be a couple of non-tender camp invite types that will deserve a look as well.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have a soft spot for the guy

But only because I made a BCB-centric pun Photoshop involving him.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Aug 10, 2010 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Counting on Caridad to be the primary setup guy to Marmol ...

might have been the single dumbest personnel move going into the season. And, yes, I know that it wouldn’t have happened had Angel Guzman been healthy.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

We already have

a setup guy, Marshall. He’s been pretty darned good this year.

by qccub on Aug 10, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

But that wasn't the plan out of spring training.

And I’m well aware that Sean Marshall has had a good year. I watch the Cubs occasionally.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Anyway, you said the guys after Marmol and Marshall ...

look “like a fairly decent young pen.” And that’s not at all accurate.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I count 5 really easily

Marmol
Marshall
Grabow
Samjay
Cashner

Add in a Dotel type of minor signing or non-tender guy and the pen can be finished.

I’m not a proponent of big multi year deals for middle relievers.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nor am I.

But other than Cashner (who’s no sure thing) that’s four question marks. Very, very bad — and not “promising” as you said earlier.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Have to agree to disagree there

I’d say that is a high upside, power armed pen.

Just young and unproven aside from Marmol,Marshall and Grabow.

Pens tend to be volatile from year to year either way.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep...Marmol and Marshall...

Cashner needs 1 or 2 more years in AAA to learn something more than a 100 MPH fastball that travels 425’ when hit. Other guys are “mop-ups” at best.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Samjay has a future in the pen

He looked good there in 2008. He is a 1.5 pitch pitcher.

I’d pencil him in there in 2011. Probably Thomas Diamond as well.

Point is that young pitchers can take a step forward.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Husker a tad hot

Goodness is your corn chowder cold?

by Grockcubs on Aug 10, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

+100000000000000000

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Aug 10, 2010 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Optimist.
I’ll be called names for this.

"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Aug 10, 2010 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Each of those playoff teams had one (or more) points in their favor that the 2011 team realistically won't have.

No one on the 2011 team will do anything similar to what Sosa did in ‘98. The Cubs don’t have four young pitchers who can pretty much come out of nowhere and win close to 60 games, which is what happened in 2003. And the free-agent savings from this year’s expiring contracts won’t be close to enough to duplicate the spending from the 2006-07 offseason. And without that spending, the 2007 Cubs don’t make the playoffs.

And the NL Central will be better next year than in 2003 and 2007. I think the Reds will see to that.

That said, I think there is a chance a young Cubs team supplemented with a couple of key free agent signings and trades can make a run at 85 games or so — which might be enough to win the division if something really weird happens with the Reds and Cardinals.

But I certainly don’t expect it — and I certainly wouldn’t claim that success by teams in completely different situations is evidence that the 2011 Cubs team have a shot at the playoffs.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

No one on the 2011 team will do anything similar to what Sosa did in ‘98.

At the end of the 1997 season, no one thought Sosa would do that, either. He had a miserable year in ’97 and everyone called him “Selfish Sammy”.

The point is, you don’t know now what the Cubs or other teams will look like a year from now. Is it LIKELY the Cubs will be a playoff team next year? No, it’s not.

Is it impossible? No, it is not.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

The fact that baseball has a PED-testing policy now ...

pretty much rules out anyone going from 1997 Sammy to 1998 Sammy. I think we can agree on that.

I agree it’s not impossible that the Cubs make the playoffs. I SAID as much. But citing other outlier examples is like comparing apples and oranges. And after you repeatedly pointed to 2003 Marlins-style comebacks in this brutal season, I think you would have learned that lesson.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not even talking about something like Sosa's improvement.

Obviously, that kind of thing isn’t going to happen again.

What about the 2002-2003 changes? Or the 2006-2007 changes? Why can’t that happen again?

Would you rather be negative? I swear, some people here would rather be right than win.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, knock it off, Al.

I said TWICE in this post AND I’ve said repeatedly in the past couple months that I think this team has an outside shot at the playoffs next year.

But check out the number of times apples and oranges, or something similar, has been mentioned in the past few minutes by posters in this thread alone! We’re simply saying that your logic is flawed.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

What you are doing is...

… assuming current trends continue. Often, they don’t.

For example, a lot of “experts” predicted the Mariners would contend for a division title this year. How’d that work out?

How many people thought the Padres would do what they’re doing now? (I did, for one.) The Braves? Or how about the Mets falling out of contention?

My point is, none of us know what next year will bring — yet. What I do know is that the Cubs cannot afford to not at least attempt to contend. I know many here don’t think Jim Hendry can do it. He has already done so, twice.

Let’s at least see what the offseason brings before we write 2011 off.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

AL!

I’m not writing it off! Quite saying that that’s what I’m doing!

Here’s what I would suggest. Instead of citing examples of other Cubs teams that have gone from worst (or fifth) to first, start explaining why you think that can happen with the 2011 Cubs.

We have a young position player core that’s better than anything I can remember in my lifetime as a Cubs fan. We have three good starting pitchers, a good back-end of the bullpen AND some money to spend.

That gives me hope. I’ve said that repeatedly. Now QUIT saying I’m writing anything off!

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because I know that every time this has happened...

… team management has been embarrassed enough to go out and do what was necessary to put a winning roster on the field.

We know that the 2007-2010 core’s time is done. That doesn’t mean a new core can’t be put on the field by April 1, 2011.

I believe it will. You don’t. We agree to disagree.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Everytime, huh?

What about 1999? The Cubs didn’t exactly get back into the playoffs in 2000. And what about 2000? The Cubs played better the next season, but they didn’t make the playoffs.

BTW, if your point is that you think the Cubs will open their wallets to compete next year — then BLOODY say that!

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

OK...

… not “every time”.

And it doesn’t necessarily mean “opening their wallets”. Why does a hundreds-of-millions-of-dollars spending spree have to happen for any team to win? Many recent teams have succeeded without one. And many teams that HAVE spent money like that have failed — just ask the Mets, for example.

If the Cubs want their farm system to start producing winners — well then, maybe it’s time to start doing that.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

So, let's reassess:

Three Cubs teams have made the playoffs after terrible seasons in recent years, and two haven’t.

I’m not sure what you’re advocating otherwise. The Cubs shouldn’t necessarily open their wallets, but maybe the farm system can start producing winners? What?

What do you think is necessary for the 2011 Cubs to have a chance at playoffs? And don’t just cite other teams that have effectively bounced back.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

You think I can summarize this in a comment?

Hardly. I may write something about it later in the year or once the offseason starts.

I just can’t stand some of the negativity around here. And it really does seem like people would rather be right, bash Jim Hendry around a little, and watch the Cubs lose, than be hopeful about the future.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

One can both be hopeful and be realistic.

I hope the team wins the world series next year.
I hope the team wins the world series THIS year.

I think it’s realistic to expect the Cubs to play golf this October.
I think it’s realistic to expect the Cubs to improve next year, but still miss the playoffs.

by Flatley on Aug 10, 2010 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

That is true some do

But they are very specific people who have that as a mantra. That is why I stay away on some days. And on a few others I wish I had. (refer back to cookbook thread)

Many of us haven’t beat that drum all season.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

and for the record

most any regular could probably good part of that list.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

I can do both.

I can bash Jim Hendry (because he’s incompetent) and I HAVE to watch the Cubs lose. It’s all they do these days. I am HOPEFUL the team turns it around next year. I just don’t think it’s realistic that they will. Not to the extent that they actually compete for anything. And I get sick of being called less of a fan because of it. (No you haven’t used those exact words, you imply it)

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hey, who would have thought that?

bashing Jim Hendry!

Thank Goodness for original thinkers.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Aug 10, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

elgato

I think you and I are in the same camp.

Not saying no way they will, but saying that don’t see it happening. That hope there will be improvement.

Correct?

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes. Exactly.

I also hate the apples-and-oranges logic used by Al — because time and again in the past two years — we’re not out of it! the ’03 Marlins came back from a bigger deficit — has proved to be so meaningless.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not guarteening anything at all

I’m going to miss most of the first month of next season, and NOTHING would make me happier than when I get a chance to check scores to see them winning.

Now the people who have said all season IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I think is different than us.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right!

I don’t think 2011 is a lost season. In fact, I could see the fanbase getting excited by a group of young players (with Soriano, Ramirez and Byrd) making a run at the Wild Card — even if it falls short of the posteason.

And, done properly, that team will only get BETTER in 2012, when some of the worst of the contracts are gone and the team has some money to spend.

But we should be talking about why and how 2011 could bring an 85-win team. Optimism based on apples-and-oranges logic is pointless.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

True

Plus if we look at what is wrong with this year, do I see many fixes for next that can increase winning 25 games. In 162 game season that is a lot of games. That means 4 or 5 extra wins every month of the season.

But thats not to say I don’t see them improving some.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Cubs need to make moves ...

with eyes on 2012, but that could still pay off and get the team in the playoff hunt in 2011. Signing Cliff Lee to a multiyear deal, IMO, would do that.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

to be on the same wave length with me....

you should probably be very worried about your state of mind LOL

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

To support the "apples and oranges" scenario

I’ve gone ahead and pulled the records of all currently active teams off baseball-reference.com. For the teams in question, there have been 476 seasons of 90+ loss baseball played. Out of those 476, 15 have been followed by playoff-bound teams.

by Flatley on Aug 10, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks.

Baseball Reference makes it easy by having a CSV format available on its stats pages. Most of my time was spent copy/pasting, with a couple minutes for some basic Excel logic equations.

by Flatley on Aug 10, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

As I've said I often agree with you

And as you know even though out this rotton season, I have tried see some good in it. I want them to not suck next year. Is it possible for them to have a great season next year, yes. Nothing would make me happier to see them some how pull it together. But it’s also possible the Lions could have a good season this year in football

 But if I take a step back and look @ who the could be on the roster….. realistically see improvement from 60 ish wins to 85-90. I don’t see anything that can give me an idea they can win 25 more ball games. Get to .500 sure.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

No, we wouldn't "rather" be negative

the evidence right in front of us simply tells some of us that 2011 won’t be a contending year.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because you already know who's going to be on the team next year?

Do tell, then. What will be the Cubs’ Opening Day roster in 2011?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh for god's sake

I’ll say it one more time. Be optimistic, fine, great. Your optimism is based on nothing other than wishful thinking, and the fact that some other teams have done it, in the past. (That was the same lame argument you used for most of the first three months in keeping the faith that the team would just magically turn it around. How did that work out for you?)

Just lay off those of us who don’t share your rosy view of a General Manager who has managed to run this team into the ground, suddenly making the moves to get us back into contention.

There are PRONOUNCED differences between the last two times this organization turned it around and what 2011 will MOST LIKELY hold.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

he tends to get that way during threads

I think maybe this is his stress release.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

The problem isn't "who," it's "how much"

The Cubs already have $101M committed to payroll before signing Marmol, Marshal, Gorzelanny and Soto. They may want to move Silva, Zambrano and Fukudome, but probably aren’t going to get much salary relief even if they succeed. Those commitments don’t leave a lot of room for an extreme roster makeover and keeping a payroll cap of $140M. One or two moves may be possible (maybe someone like Dunn), but they aren’t going to be able to fill all the holes of the 2010 team – they can have a #1 starter or a slugging 1B, but not both.

The only exception is if it is your thesis that young players step in to fill key roles in the starting rotation, bullpen and bench, in addition to the players who have come up in 2010. But I don’t see MLB-ready starters in Des Moines, a slugging 1B, or a leadoff hitter/2B. Or things could work if Carlos Zambrano finds his 2003-2007 self in the offseason and returns as that pitcher.

by ClarkFan on Aug 10, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sosa also had wrist injury in 1996

He had a 12.45 AB/HR rate that season before the injury in August. He probably could have hit more than 50 that year. It’s no surprise his home run power dropped as much as it did in 1997 (17.83 AB/HR) before going stratospheric in 1998 (9.74 AB/HR). He was hitting on average about eight more home runs in nearly the same number of AB’s (642 in 1997 vs. 643 in 1998). That was a huge help from 1997 to 1998.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

But let's not forget all the controversy behind Sosa.

It could be that the reason for his resurgence… well, I won’t say it.

But there’s reason to wonder why we would look for another such “miracle.”

by Flatley on Aug 10, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I often do agree with you

But yes it’s possible. But possible and likely apples and oranges.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

You and I don't often agree

and this is another example.

Lynch and Hendry had more financial/roster flexibility in those three years than Hendry (assuming he stays put) will have this offseason. The current roster is the perfect storm of too much money tied up in too many underperforming players with restrictive contracts.

Instead of “ignoring history”, I prefer to think of the situation as “seeing the present for what it is”.

However I will neither dump on nor mock others who see things differently.

I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.

by EalyEagle on Aug 10, 2010 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I like your glass half full view normally

Before anyone starts telling me I don’t want them to win or why am I even a fan blah blah blah. I see where they can improve next year. .500 isn’t out of the realm of possibilty. Do I see them going from less than 70 wins to 85-90 no.

But this team is a lot different than those 3. My thought is just the opposite b/c of the payroll. Dome & Z although we’d all like to gone, really can’t see being able to get rid of both of them. This parade of rookie relievers doesn’t bode well for next years team.

I agree Lou is a rotton manager, but has Trammel showed to be any better? Small sample size I realize, but no real line up changes or better relief decisions.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Definitions
Optimist: The glass is half full
Pessimist: The glass is half empty
Cubs Fan: Watches glass, waiting for it to be knocked over

I’ve always found this “funny” but can’t remember where I heard it first.

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Almost.

The version I heard for the Cubs fan definition was:

Glass is half filled with kerosene and on fire…

We have met the enemy and they are us! ~ Walt Kelly, Pogo, 1971

by Zeke on Aug 10, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

RIP Mr. Carlin

We miss you…

We have met the enemy and they are us! ~ Walt Kelly, Pogo, 1971

by Zeke on Aug 10, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

very true

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

No, here are your definitions.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

...

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

My mom never

served us kool-aid so I never cared for it.

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Aug 10, 2010 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

What kind of mother wouldn't serve her kid sugar water and red dye #2????

We have met the enemy and they are us! ~ Walt Kelly, Pogo, 1971

by Zeke on Aug 10, 2010 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mine.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mine, too. We siblings?

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe. ;-)

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cool. You rich?

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm a young'un.

My finances are my own business.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Was jokin'.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I know.

So we’re good. :)

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

BINGO!

Al is entitled to be a constant optimist. It is his site. Some of us realized in May that, nope, this team was not going to be a .500 team (I picked them for 79 wins – boy was I wrong) and that eventually with the two main offensive weapons not contributing to the level they HAD TO – it was a futile season. That is how it has turned out.

In looking at the starting rotation, they should be duking it out with Houston. This is the probability. The bullpen, other than the back-end, is atrocious – AND we have another Grabow year to look forward to.

There is not ONE offensive player that another manager has to strategize around in any way. A few good, young pieces, for sure. But in comparison with the Reds and Cards? NO WAY.

2011 will be interesting, but if they make .500 I will be shocked.

by The E-Man on Aug 10, 2010 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Cubs should make moves this offseason with eyes on 2012.

But those moves can also help the 2011 team. My vote would be to sign Cliff Lee, which instantly makes the rotation of Lee-Dempster-Gorzo-Wells-Silva competitive. I’d use the best guys from this year’s daycare bullpen — Cashner, Russell, etc. — and I’d look at moving Colvin to first.

The offense could be really lacking. But if Colvin and Castro are for real, if Ramirez improves knowing he’ll be a FA, if Soriano, Byrd and Soto do what they’re doing now if DeWitt is a decent No. 7 hitter and if someone can fill the first-base spot (if Colvin doesn’t work there) for a season … maybe this team surprises some people, wins 85 and makes the playoffs.

If those things don’t happen, the rotation is still strong for 2012, and the team can spend a bunch of money to improve.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

There is zero chance they sign Lee

They are not going to tie up that much money in one player and Lee does not even help that much. Starting pitching has not been the problem.

My “money” is on Dunn. He will draw fans everyday which is what they need.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Dunn would be my second pick.

Anyway, starting pitching hasn’t been the problem YET. I rotation of Dempster-Gorzo-Wells-Silva-Who Knows? hardly inspires confidence.

And I’d rather spend $18 million per on Cliff Lee than $12 million on Ted Lilly, if that’s where you’re going.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd rather spend 2/20 on Lilly

and get Dunn too. I think it can be done. Lee is going for probably 6/120. I love the guy but not in the budget and I don’t see the Cubs outbidding the usual suspects.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry, but that seems crazy to me.

I’d rather spend 6/120 on Lee, roll the dice at first next year, and spend on a good 1B in the 2011 offseason when a bunch of guys are likely available.

Now, if Lee is unavailable, Dunn and Lilly would be a fine backup plan. But the team will need a true ace in 2012.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

You'd give a six-year deal to Cliff Lee?

That’s just nuts.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

You've, essentially, been advocating ...

for a six-year deal (2007-2010) + two more years to Ted Lilly. I know the situation is a little different, because the last two years of that “contract” aren’t guaranteed. But Lee is also a better pitcher than Lilly ever was or will be.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

And Ted Lilly and Cliff Lee ...

are WAY different in terms of talent.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Of course they are but you can't always afford

what you want.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

But that's just the thing.

I think the Cubs CAN afford Cliff Lee AND I think it would be worth it.

Wouldn’t it be nice to sign a top-tier free agent (a real one, not Soriano) instead of a tier-two guy?

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Cubs would be adding

adding another 25 million even with Lilly and D-Lee gone and much of that would be long term.
You also still need a few other spare parts to add a few more million. I don’t see the Cub with $170 million dollar payroll.
Oh by the way I am sure Lee gets a backloaded NTC deal wherever he signs.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Use every available dollar saved from DLee/Lilly et. al ...

other than raises through arbitration and give it to CLee. Fill other holes with scrap-heap guys or cost-controlled players from the system.

Then, go after a 1B in the 2011-12 offseason, after the contracts for Kosuke and Aramis go off the books.

Lee pacifies the fanbase for a year while the team rebuilds. He’s also a premier pitcher who can lead the team in the postseason.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Cliff Lee is definitely going to ask for a full NTC.

He’s been on four teams in the last calendar year. I think wherever he goes will be his final career stop.

And if you are right and the Cubs don’t make the playoffs in 2011, then by 2012 he’s older and would possibly be in a career decline.

If you’re talking about contending next year, maybe, but this is still a very expensive free agent.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

As you're fond of pointing out ...

regarding Ted Lilly, left handers age better.

For the record, I bet the Cubs get Lilly and Dunn. But Lee is interesting and the Cubs should kick his proverbial tires, if nothing else.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

For the record, I bet the Cubs get Lilly and Dunn.

I could live with that, and it would make the Cubs a better team.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe.

But Lilly could be in career decline, too.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Admittedly, he could.

That’s why you only do two years for him. You’re suggesting six years for C-Lee, who would be 38 when that contract expired.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fair point.

But I see Cliff Lee as a top-rotation starter in 2012 and 2013. Ted Lilly, as much as we all love him, can’t do that.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

HAve to agree w/Al

that I have read Cliff’s next contract will come with an NTC. Does anyone think, given the recent handcuff’s, that HEndry will get the OK from Tom to do this moving forward as readily?

by The E-Man on Aug 10, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

For Cliff Lee? Definitely. Adam Dunn , too.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was thinking about this the other day

I wonder how many 4+ year contracts for starting pitchers have turned out well? I haven’t looked into it as yet, but I am thinking not very many.

Three years ago, Jake Peavy and Brandon Webb looked like absolutely the surest bets in the world amongst the young pitchers to have long productive careers.

Three years later, that has changed dramatically.

by azjazzman on Aug 10, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, lookie here.

You & I agree. CC Sabathia’s is about the only one that looks good — now. And who knows what it will look like two years from now.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

I can think of one 5 year contract

that was probably the best in MLB history but of course it was rather a while back.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Got to get Dunn

Pitching is too injury prone to commit that kind of money to. IMHO

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

$18M for Lee seems awful low

The opening ante should be more like $20M, and with the Yankees in the picture could easily get to $25M. Lee has sustained excellence better than Sabathia had in 2008, so I would expect numbers around Sabathia’s as a given.

by ClarkFan on Aug 10, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you crazy?

Cliff Lee was worth 7+ wins in 2009 and he’s been worth 5 wins so far this season. He’s the type of legitimate front of the rotation starter that this team has lacked since 2003. Just getting Dunn is not going to get this team above 85+ wins in 2011. A starting staff of Dempster/Wells/Zambrano/Silva/Gorz is rather pedestrian.

Dunn and CLee (or insert other TOR starter here) is what the Cubs need, along with consistency or rebound years from the core that will remain in 2011

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

They could do it

Cut ties with Hill/Baker/Fontenot/some of the other players up for arbitration. The only arb eligible guys that are in line for a significant raise are Geo, Marmol, and Marshall, maybe Wells.

If the team just maintains payroll, the savings from Lilly/DLee/Theriot/Nady could be used to sign both Dunn (average annual salary (10-12million) and CLee (average annual salary probably around $23million over 5 years). The key will be to structure the contracts so their respective 2011 salaries are reasonable with consistent escalating money starting in 2012 when the Cubs should have around $40million additional dollars coming off the books).

Just gotta maintain payroll…….

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Cubs will save $25 million or so ...

when the contracts from Lee/Lilly/Theriot/Nady come off the books, and another $3 million from Hill/Baker/Fontenot. With the raises you mentioned, I can only see about $20 million to spend next year.

And I doubt that will be enough to get Dunn and CLee — even if the deals are creatively structured.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

I come up with a number of more than $20million available for 2011

DLee ($13)( /Lilly ($12 + 1.5 from this year)/Theriot ($2.5 + $1 from this year) )/Nady ($3) not even including the money saved from trading Lilly/Theriot

You let the other guys walk and bring up Barney/Castillo to fill in for Baker/Fonty/Hill. There’s 30+ million there. Geo/Gorz/Wells/Marmol/Marshall made a combined $4.9million in 2010, lets double that for 2011 ($9.8million), I get to around $25million available money + maybe they save $2-3million for Kosuke.

Lets just say the Cubs have $25million free for 2011. $9 million to Dunn in year 1, $16million to CLee in year 1 (I’d also include some deferred money in the contract as well). I think they’ll have more than $20million to spend, maybe save 2-3 million on Kosuke’s contract.

I’d rather trade for Greinke than sign CLee anyways, younger and only a $13million salary till 2012 + we won’t have to give up draft picks to get Greinke.

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

but we will have

to give up guys who are close to the big leagues to get Greinke not guys who might be close to the big leagues some day if they progress correctly.

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Greinke

Meh. Do not want. Sorry.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

same here

I wanted him 2 years ago but anymore we would have to give up too much – I still say try for a young team with Sandberg next year – see what he can do with them and prepare to go nuts next offseason

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Seriously, Why wouldn't you want Greinke?

He won the Cy Young award in the AL last year, and while his numbers are down this year, he’s still been elite.

Sure we’ll have to give up prospects. I’d be willing to part with Cashner/Colvin etc, the only two prospects I wouldn’t part with at the moment are Castro and Brett Jackson….

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

My rationale is that

Greinke is a known commodity, while the others, not so much.

I’m not sold on Colvin (strikes out too much) or Cashner (only one + pitch, his fastball at the moment). Why not turn those two (and a couple others) into the 2009 AL Cy Young winner.

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

The guy has mental issues in KC...

You want him coming to THIS? No thank you.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's really unfair and uncalled for.

Greinke has — or had — a social anxiety disorder. Had nothing to do with where he was playing baseball. He got it treated, and is now doing well. Your post was really an insult to him.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um you forgot about raises

Marshall & Marmol should be due for some very large ones and Soto as well. Not sure about Gorzo but probably.
Dunn & Lee will be far more than 9 & 16 unless of course you want some very back loaded contracts that bite you in the ass later.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I doubled the salaries for all four of those guys you listed

the 9 million and 16 million salaries were for the FIRST year only, the Cubs have much more money coming off the books in 2012, which is when the big money to Lee and Dunn would kick in.

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

The real question is what type of contract Dunn/CLee will get, I see only 3 - 4 teams in for either of them

Dunn got 2/$20million. I’d use that as the benchmark for Dunn

Sabathia got 7/$161million. I’d use his annual average salary of $23million as the benchmark for CLee. He’s not going to get 7 years like CC because he’s a couple of years older than CC was in 2009.

Dunn – 3 year/$30-34million
CLee – 5 year/$115million

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

You need to do a LOT more than double it

Soto alone is going to get several times his current salary.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

That remains to be seen

Soto’s not going to be making $5+million next season if that’s what you’re saying, ditto for Marmol. Hendry should be able to make a pretty convincing case as to why if they went to an arbitration hearing.

I could see Soto’s salary jumping to $2.5million, Marmol to $3.5million, Gorz and Marshall to $1.5-2million, but not much higher than that.

Still, Soto/Gorz/Wells/Marmol/Marshall could all be signed for less than $10million in 2011 (which is double). It might take a contract that buys out the remaining arbitration years for a couple of guys, but it could be done.

I guess we’ll see. My point is that CLee and Dunn can both be had if payroll is maintained at 2010 levels. There is enough money coming off the books to do both and keep the arb-eligible players that we want to keep.

If the Cubs reduce payroll to 2007-08 levels, then the 2011 team is not going to be that good.

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

If Soto maintains his current performance in 2011

then he’ll certainly get a big raise in 2012. Right now, its still fairly difficult to project what type of production to expect out of Soto, 2008 & 2010 production or 2009 production. That’s why I don’t believe he’ll get a huge raise this off-season.

And my understanding of arbitration hearings is that they aren’t based on just the last year of performance, but on the entire career.

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Soto currently makes 575,00

2.5 would be many times that.

They can’t get Lee & Dunn and maintain 2010 levels without insanely backloaded deals and virtually no other FA signings which means an infield of what Barney and Scales as your bench? A bullpen where Russell is your go to guy if you need to get someone out in the 6th? Colvin playing 1st and Dome in LF? Oh and your OF bench is Fuld & Adduci

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why would Colvin play 1st ...

if the Cubs signed Dunn? Do you mean as a backup?

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

I did the math a few posts up and

its entirely possible WITHOUT insanely backloading either deal. Dunn’s contract could look something like this: 2011 ($9mil), 2012 ($10mil), 2013 ($11-14mil)

CLee’s contract could look something like this: 2011 ($16mil), 2012-2015 ($24.75mil from 2012-2015 with $2mil a year deferred – similar to what the Cards did with Holliday’s contract). I’d still rather try to work a trade for Greinke if the Royals attempt to trade him…..

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ha -- didn't mean to post ...

But unless I missed it, you forgot to figure in raises due to guys on LTCs. Without doing any research, I know Grabow and Byrd are due more money. I wouldn’t be shocked if Demspter is too.

I doubt the Cubs commit $23 million — given everything else — on Lee and Dunn.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dunn and Lee are a pipedream really

The rotation looks decent as is.

A First base bat is Priority 1

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Really?

a rotation of Demp/Gorz/Wells/Silva/Zambrano doesn’t seem that great at all….

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Byrd's due $2.5mil more

Demp is due $1mil more, Grabow’s due $2.1mil more, Rami’s salary decreases by $1.15million. Getting rid of Baker/Fontenot/Hill and hopefully $2-3million saved from trading Fukudome can be used to make up for the increases in Byrd/Grabow/Demp salaries.

Its all doable, is it likely? probably not. But the 2011 Cubs as they stand right now are probably about a 75win team in 2011. Add Dunn and Greinke or CLee and that gets the Cubs to about 85+ wins.

Dunn’s an absolute must for 1B, IMO. I’m okay with not signing CLee, but the starting staff is going to need some help, its very pedestrian without a TOR starter. That’s why I’d like to see the Cubs go hard after Greinke. Make the Royals an offer they can’t refuse as long as it doesn’t include Castro or BJackson…

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, Castro/Dewitt will be the middle infield

Castillo would back up Geo, OF will be Soriano/Byrd/Colvin, 1B will be Dunn, 3rd will be Rami. The bench will be a work in progress. The only guy I would pencil in is Barney. Fuld would be an okay option for 5th OF, a Jim Edmunds type of 1 year $800,000 contract signing could be used for the 4th OF.

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Cubs need to pay attention to

the bench and the bullpen. Not doing so this year or doing it very badly blew up in their faces. The Cubs won’t even be players for Lee. I don’t think 5/100 gets him. He is the shiniest toy in the box.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

The bench is not why the Cubs suck

The Cubs suck because they are getting horrible production from the corner infield STARTERS.

The Cubs will be players for CLee, They might not get him, but they’ll be in the mix.

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Overpaying for bench players and relievers is not a great idea.

I’d rather, like magic, spend money on Lee and go cheap on the backups.

That said, if Lee wants more than five years, I’m not sure I want him as a Cub.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um, you probably just traded Colvin to KC in the Greinke deal

He Can’t play both places. That puts Fukudome as the starter in RF…..:-(

by ClarkFan on Aug 10, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dunn and his agent

have a chip on their shoulders re: the way they feel they got hosed the last time around in Free Agency.

Dunn is on a mission..and that mission is to recoup the money he feels he should’ve gotten before. He will be one of the most sought after FAs this offseason, and expect someone to overpay for his services, both in terms of dollars and years. There will not be a “team friendly” contract for Dunn in 2011, book it.

That, combined with the fact that Dunn will soon be 31 and is not exactly a work out warrior would cause me to speculate that someone is going to get saddled with a contract that they will live to regret. It’s not like Dunn can point to his defense when his offensive production declines.

by azjazzman on Aug 10, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who cares about defense when a guy goes 40+ HRs 100+RBIs and hits .280 with a butt load of walks?

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

.274 as of today. That's fine.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Defense matters

especially at 1st base. I saw enough of Dunn when he was with the D’Backs to learn that his defense was a major detriment.

Dunn has always played for teams that are well below .500. His offensive production has never resulted in winning. That, plus the fact that he will likely decline during this upcoming contract makes him a risky signing, imo.

by azjazzman on Aug 10, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

In all fairness...

he’s played for some pretty lame teams. He’s the ONLY option this team has at contending next year. Look at all the contenders this year…mostly everyone has a ’stud" at 1B.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

AND...

in 910 Total Chances this year he’s made 6 errors…D. Lee has made 6 errors in 40 less chances.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dunn's defensive problems

are not tied to errors. His biggest problem are mental errors. Plus the fact that his physical limitations do not allow him to do a lot of things. If you have watched him at all, this is obvious.

by azjazzman on Aug 10, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I get what you're saying...

I really do. It’s just that his offense would work wonders for this squad. It’s been a LONG time since the Cubs had that ONE guy who was in the on-deck circle that other teams said “Holy @*%#, look who’s up next”. Ya gotta have that. If a team don’t have that ONE guy, they aren’t gonna contend…IMHO.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I get what you are saying, too

but as I said in my original post, Dunn will be overpaid this time around. You can see that coming a mile away. Added to that is enough risk that he will decline, and imo, won’t be the difference maker that his stats suggest he would be. All this adds up to a risky move that has the potential to be a real disaster.

Maybe Hendry still has some riverboat gambler in him, but I suspect the Soriano, Fukudome and Bradley signings have muted that somewhat.

by azjazzman on Aug 10, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you think Adam Dunn

is the key to turning the Cubs from a 90+ loss team to a contending team, I wish you luck. You’re gonna need it.

by azjazzman on Aug 10, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not ALL they need...

but it’s the MAIN thing they need.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

They can have a Silva-sized chip on their shoulders all they want...

…but it’s not gonna matter unless there’s some team willing to overpay. And whether or not there’s a team willing to overpay wouldn’t seem to have much to do with whether Dunn & his agent have a chip on their shoulder or not.

I guess I don’t see the connection between chip and contract. Do you think Dunn would pull a Dye and not play next year because teams didn’t meet his $ demands?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Aug 10, 2010 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

You are missing the point

the chip Dunn has on his shoulder is what is motivating him to make sure he puts up the best numbers possible this year. He is swinging for the downs in every AB no matter what the count or the game situation. This is part of the reason why I claim he is not what I would call a ‘winning ball player’. Last week Dunn hit two of the longest home runs to right field at Chase Field I have ever seen, both in the same game. You take out that one game and he went 1 for 12 the rest of the series.

And the chip that the agent has means that he will not accept a contract with deferred money, or backloaded or anything else that they might otherwise have considered the last time around.

The number of teams that were looking to acquire Dunn at the trade deadline makes it clear that there are a lot of teams interested in adding someone with Dunn’s skills. The fact that the Yankees were one of the teams that were pursuing the hardest means that the bidding will get heated. The fact that the Nationals couldn’t make a deal because they recognized Dunn’s value and wanted a serious return also is indicative of the interest.

All this adds up to one thing. Dunn is going to be overpaid on his next contract. Book it.

Dye is not a good comparison at all. Dye is 36 and has already shown serious decline. Dunn is 30 and has not. In fact, he has been remarkably consistent in his production.

by azjazzman on Aug 10, 2010 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok, McGarrett, whatever you say...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Aug 10, 2010 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dunn has been league neutral in defense this year

That means that he hasn’t cost his team any runs because of his defense. He was terrible last year, but has been much better this year……

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also keep in mind the money coming off after 2011

Silva-11.5
Kfuk-13.5
Grabow-4.9

Is 30 Million right there. So you could backload a Dunn deal a little bit to fit him in.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cutting Baker , Hill, Fonty

is literally chump change and won’t cover the first two months of Lee’s salary. I find it funny that everyone thinks Lee is nearly a magic bullett and spending over 100 million on him would be a good idea.
Of course we did that with Soriano, A-Ram & Lee and how did that work out. The last thing the Cubs can afford is giant long term contract on one player.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

See my response to elgato

Cots Baseball contracts is a good friend when trying to see how much money the Cubs will have available. It’s has updated payroll numbers after the trades of Lilly/Theriot and the addition of Dewitt…..

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/chicago-cubs_112114177768677294.html

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Also, CLee is a more certain commodity

He’s been mostly spectacular since 2005 (sans 2007) and has been pretty durable, ditto for Dunn.

I can’t really complain about the money spent on ARam and DLee, they’ve been worth every penny to this point. Soriano was a bad signing, most GMs wouldn’t have given Soriano an 8 year deal.

CLee would be a good signing. I don’t think he’ll get a y 7 year deal like Sabathia, but a 5 year deal with the same average annual salary as CC should get it done. And that would be worth it for his age 32-36 seasons. There will be some regression towards the end of his contract, but overall I think he’ll be worth 5+ wins a year for the first 3 years of his contract.

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Will everyone who is slinging around numbers for $ please go to Cot's and look at the 2011 commitments?

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/chicago-cubs_112114177768677294.html

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tt7HjIernphaSrv4wMWdUYg&output=html

Without the full info, the scenarios end up spending the same dollars twice but counting them once. In particular, even with the salaries that have run off or could be run off, some of the savings gets eaten up by the backloaded contracts. And I wouldn’t want to assume that the Marmol/Marshal/Soto/Gorezelanny group would just get their salaries doubled for 2011. Marmol has been the closer for the full year; Soto has been one of the best offensive catchers in the NL, and the other two have had solid seasons. That’s going to cost a few beans.

by ClarkFan on Aug 10, 2010 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cubs have the most quality starts in the NL last time I checked.

That is much better than pedestrian. That isn’t to say I would not love to see Lee leading the rotation in 2011.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Quality starts = 4.50 ERA, that's not a good ERA

The Cubs starters in 2010 are/were made up of basically a low # 2 starter (Dempster), 2 #3’s (Z and Lilly), a #4 (Wells), and a #5 (Silva). Z’s been more of a 4-5 this season as well.

That’s mediocre IMO, elite would be the Cardinals staff…..

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Will be interesting to watch the Cardinals staff

They do indeed have two aces, but kind of a drop off a cliff after that and serious bullpen issues. The Reds don’t really have an ace but they may win it in the end because they have more depth in starters & BP

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not to mention Jaime Garcia.

Has been great this year as well. Not an ace, but I’d put him over any of our starters.

by CubFan90 on Aug 10, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Garcia started out lights out

but he has been only average for the last 2 months with an ERA of nearly 4.00. I would not put him over starters at the moment. Let’s see how he does in a pennant race.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Quality starts =/ 4.50 ERA

They are at WORST a 4.50 ERA. Your situation assumes that every single time the Cubs staff goes out they allow 3 runs and only pitch 6 innings.

No, they don’t have the best starting ERA in baseball, but those quality starts means your team has a chance to win every single one of those games.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think quality starts is not the best metric anyways for the exact reason you stated.

So lets look at the Cubs current starting staff ERA, which is 4.20, good for 12th highest ERA in the NL.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/year/2010/seasontype/2/league/nl

at ESPN, the only list the total staff ERA, but if you just average the current 5 starters, the ERA is 4.20. Swap Lilly for Z and it drops to 3.85 which would be good enough for 6th, just behind the Mets. Pretty mediocre, IMO even with Lilly instead of Z……

 

They were 4th prior to the AS break.

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not true

It’s three runs or less in 6 innings. So, if all the quality starts were zero runs surrendered, the ERA would be 0.00. Quality starts = ERA from 0-4.5.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Aug 10, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Quality starts are irrelevant

Wins are what matter.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Pitchers can't win games

They can only put their teams in a position to win. A staff of Lee, Halliday, Carpenter, Wainright & Jimenez won’t win if their team does not score any runs.

If Ted Lilly wins his next start , his win total in two weeks with the Dodgers will match his total for over three months with the Cubs.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're right

But quality starts are still irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You don’t get a little flag at the end of the season for having the most quality starts. Teams have to win ball games and it’s those wins that get you that little flag.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not irrelevant, and obviously all that matters is wins.

Why do we even keep stats? They’re ALL irrelevant if you dont win the game.

Most ridiculous arguement yet.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

If that's how you read it, it is ridiculous

My point is that quality start really is a useless stat and I never liked it.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for at least clarifying...

Agree to disagree. I see the quality starts stat as a pitcher doing his job. Keeping his team in the game with a chance to win – that’s all you can ask of a pitcher from day to day.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

It is not useless but it is wildly overused

and not a good measure. it should be reajusted to something like 6 innings and two runs. I think it is meant to give some credit to pitchers who are victims of crappy defense and run support , as a team stat I don’t like it.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

The average baseball team

is scoring 4.44 runs per game this year and the average ERA is 4.14. So on an average each team scores 0.30 unearned runs per game.

The Cubs pitching staff has a 4.38 ERA and surrender 4.89 runs per game. That means we give up 0.51 runs per game.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Aug 10, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

The starting pitchers who have the most quality starts

also tend to be the ones with the best W-L record, the ones with the best ERA, the ones with the best WHIP, etc etc.

It just amazes me that people don’t get this. It’s like they think these numbers exist in a vacuum. They don’t.

by azjazzman on Aug 10, 2010 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

But, that's not always the case.

There are many instances in which the pitcher with the most quality starts does not have the most wins or the best ERA. Actually the 2010 Cubs are the perfect example of this, so I’m not really sure what point you are trying to make…..

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't put a date on it, but you are correct, long term thinking is required and not quick fixes.

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sure the Cubs could do it

But there are a lot of holes that need to be filled with productive bats. If they don’t maintain payroll at or above $145million, like some on this board and the Chicago media suggest, then its going to be difficult to reach the 90 win mark in 2011.

Even just signing Dunn and CLee (or trading for Greinke) probably won’t be enough. That would be a step in the right direction though and wouldn’t really hinder more additions in 2012, when they will have even more payroll flexibility

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Al
I’ll be called names for this.

I was surprised nobody did that yet.

by Arbusto on Aug 10, 2010 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

No question...

…the Cubs and many other teams can make the playoffs next year if many things go right for them.

To me, I’m thinking much bigger than that. How does an organizaion with the Cubs resources become a legit “top” baseball organization" that is in the hunt virtually every year?

"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

by MPH73 on Aug 10, 2010 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Factor in the payroll and we're approaching all-time bad for this organization

The Pirates may very well pass the Cubs in the standings. They are at least showing they haven’t quit.

by Mapmaker on Aug 10, 2010 8:42 AM CDT reply actions  

Soto on DL

My favorite player (him and Ted Lilly have been last couple years) & one of the few having a good year now on the DL. Hopefully it’s nothing serious. Wasn’t happy news to me, when I woke up this morning.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:02 AM CDT reply actions  

That actually made me sick to hear

for his sake as well as the fact that they’re 2-14 in their last sixteen and I don’t see many wins coming anytime soon.

I just wonder if Trammell will rest anybody today since Lincecum is pitching…

by Mapmaker on Aug 10, 2010 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Might as well.

The regular lineup isn’t doing anything. Why not try something different?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

When the Cubs played the Giants with Lincecum pitching...

… it was September.

Unless you’re talking about the game in May. That was weird lineup selection, but it was May. The issue was the Cubs not having a good bench so they could actually start backups and the team could win, not the idea of resting regulars in general.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

No the issue was that he started four bench players in one game

which is what I now refer to as the “Lou Pineilla Special” And I believe he was referring to the May game.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough.

Again, you could start four bench players in one game IF you had decent bench players. The 2009 Cubs did not. That was the problem, not the concept of doing it.

The lineup full of bench players beat Lincecum in September, when the Giants were still in playoff contention.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know many competent managers who would start 4 bench players

against one of the majors best pitchers and expect to win. That was my (and apparently others’) problem with that lineup.

It was clearly a lineup where we would have had to luck out in order to win.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

While I don't disagree with you AT ALL ...

hasn’t Lou made out enough stupid lineups in 2010 to keep us from dredging up 2009?

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

well, yes, but I didn't dredge it up

I was just clarifying Mapmaker’s comments. And I think that was really the first lineup where I went

“What in the name of all that is holy is Lou DOING out there?” It was the first lineup where I was convinced the man simply was not a good manager anymore

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

That might have been the start of it.

Though I remember a DH doubleheader in 2008 (maybe against the Marlins?) that was equally as puzzling.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

That was one of the few games I went to last year.

I’m still ticked off about that.

"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Aug 10, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Trammell with a great line

On tonight’s game:

“Obviously, Tim Lincecum can pitch, they’re in the pennant race, it doesn’t look good for us, does it?”

Atta boy Tram, keep the faith. He did go on to say:

“But you know what, when the game starts at 7:15 it’s 0-0, and I believe we have a shot.”

Still, not really exuding the confidence we’re looking for. I say give Tram the courtesy interview, along with Quade, then go get an ass kicker, whether it’s Ryno or someone else.

Scott Bora$ is satan.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:06 AM CDT reply actions  

For what?

Ballboy? He terrible at the job he’s got and, as a our former AAA manager, he’s one of the reasons this team has a total lack of fundamentals.

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Ass kicker"?

What, exactly, is the point of that? This isn’t the NFL.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ass Kicker may be a bit strong...

By “ass kicker” I mean someone that commands respect in the clubhouse, and demands that his players execute the fundamentals and show up every day ready to giver.

Scott Bora$ is satan.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lou claimed to be that when he got here

Let’s hire someone who is known as a good baseball mind

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Now, on that, I would agree with you.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

this guy

I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.

by EalyEagle on Aug 10, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Already working for another team.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Assistant for another team

Offer him the GM job.

I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.

by EalyEagle on Aug 10, 2010 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of course, every team should want a manager like that.

But “ass kicker” is way too strong.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

I want Fredi Gonzalez

Or someone like that, who didn’t take crap from his star player (Hanley). May have gotten him fired, but then again, Loria’s an idiot.

Scott Bora$ is satan.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right.

Forgot that Cox was retiring. They’ve probably already got a handshake deal in place.

Scott Bora$ is satan.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

I also like Sandberg

I think not only has he paid his dues in the system, and can lead our young guys, but he played the game the right way as well.

Scott Bora$ is satan.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah..Ass kickers always work out so well

Just ask Larry Bowa

See the Cubs 2010 schedule (now with game times & TV Schedule) at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/sched2010.html
Also see what old Cubs Scorecards looked like at http://cubsbythenumbers.com/scorecards.html

by kaseyi on Aug 10, 2010 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

This game eliminated Trammell from my list of possible managers

Keep him around as a bench coach though. Also, Zambrano’s pitches had a lot of movement, good to see, now if he could just control them better. This outing was better than I thought. By the way, didn’t Reneteria score on a passed ball? There’s no way that was a wild pitch, Hill could have easily gotten it.

"Get up or GET OUT THE WAY!"
~Stacy King

by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 10, 2010 9:10 AM CDT reply actions  

That's right, why?

Besides giving nice interviews, he’s done nothing but be a yes man for all of Lou’s bonehead moves and one of the main culprits in our total lack of fundamentals.

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

What did Trammell do that was wrong?

I really was not watching so I can I am asking. We know he had no choice but to start Hill & Nady. I don’t know if this game could have been won but the Cubs were screwed by in order of responsibility Hendry, Soto & Lee. You can’t go into a game down two position players which of course was magnified because it went extra innings. Did the Cubs not realize Soto was not healthy before they left for SF. Did he do the usual " I think I can work through it" and they believed as they did Soriano, A-Ram etc? I am very sorry D-Lee has a difficult family situation, but if he had realized it as late as Monday morning ( and I assume the Cubs got to SF on Sunday night) there would have been enough time to rush Hoff to SF. Perhaps in fact they did and the Cubs just did not think rushing Hoff was important. Clearly being out of it leaves everyone a bit unfocused, but short of accident on the way to the park no team should be playing with 23 guys.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I listened to about half the game

IMHO he made the same decisions Lou has all season.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Looking at the box score I am not sure.

He still had two pitchers left in the 11th so that is not like Lou. There was almost nothing he could do in terms of pinch hitting and the fact that he still had Baker on the bench was very unLou like.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I realize you won’t see that. You have a strong opinion on your hatred of all things Lou.

But I figured that opinion could be viewed and commented on by others.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

I am just basing this on how Lou has used the bench & BP in previous games

I don’t see anything Trammell did wrong except possibly using Mateo over Coleman.
I have little doubt Lou would have used more pitchers and Baker but hey it is possible they would have won under those circumstances but Lou does not reserve pitchers or bench players in games let alone extra inning games.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

So Lee "screwed" the Cubs by leaving to be with sick family?

Careful Doggie, your tender caring side is showing again….

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Aug 10, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

No Lee and or The Cubs screwed up by not getting enough notice

Lee gets in Sunday night and does not apparently know until after 12 on Monday that he is leaving for a few days. The Cubs SHOULD have had Hoff up by game time. Somebody did screw up but again it seems they ( players and management) don’t much care anymore.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rec'd.

But don’t expect Jessica to have much compassion. It’s Lou and his team we’re talking about, after all.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

So Lee gets in Sunday night

Waits till say noon to visit his ailing grandfather and tells the Cubs about 3 he will be gone? I strongly suspect this is on Hendry NOT Lee.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe his grandfather

took a turn for the worse in the interim.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 10, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1

These things never can be predicted. I remember the day my grandmother died was a Monday I went back to my mother’s house intended to visit for a few days for the Mardi Gras holidays. I never anticipated that I would be out for a week when I went to my mom’s on Monday.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

exactly

I’m not sure if she’s ever had to deal with that, I hope not b/c I did with my gramma. It was hell. I won’t wish it upon anyone.

Who ever said if it was Maddux you are right. I’m sure she’d say he’s always said his family comes first. B/c he can do no wrong. Everyone else is held to impossible standard, even Dlee who has shown us how important family is to him.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why are we still debating this?

Derrek Lee missed a game for a team that’s almost 20 under .500 because of a family emergency.

I’m not a big fan of Derrek Lee these days for other reasons, but you’d think he missed a play-in game to the postseason — based on some comments today (not yours MCF).

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Rec'd

I cannot understand how people can be criticized for putting their families first. Just because they’re multimillionaires? Stuff like this makes everybody equal.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 10, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well ...

I’d argue that some athletes use their families as excuses to not do things. But in this case? Who the hell cares?

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

this is my first comment about it:)

The only point I wanted to make was that I hope she never has to go thru what he might be going thru. As I have. If she has, I don’t understand how one can fault someone.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again I think this is on the Cubs not Lee

and it is indicative that they have just given up and don’t really care if they have a 23 man roster for a game. Somehow Lee only finds out hours before a game he must leave and Soto pulls something in practice though he has not played for days and they have openly discussed putting him on the DL anyway.
The track record of this organization sucks at this kind of thing and I don’t believe this happens if they are in the race.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

They're not exactly playing for much at this point, DS.

I agree that they shouldn’t give up, but the stakes are ridiculously small at this point.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know, maybe not.

But your bashing of the organization for things for which you do not have the entire story borders on irrational.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

No much better to take their word for it

when they assure us Soriano & A-Ram are fine ( or that Wood and Prior would be fine back in the day) Again the 23 man roster is on Hendry for not being able to deal with this faster. You will excuse me if I remain cynical that D-Lee waited till noon to tell the Cubs he might not be able to play and that they were just shocked , shocked that Soto had to go on the DL.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

again

Soto, I think per an article on espnchicago.com, was more of a gametime decision – bp went well but then he tightened up during warmups…and it is highly plausible (again why bash someone when you dont have anywhere near all of the facts) that Lee initially told them what was going on, was planning on playing but then got another phone call saying he needed to come immediately – this kind of stuff happens. Or it is entirely possible that there werent any flights that were going to get Hoffpauir and Castillo to San Francisco in any reasonable time to get to the game and have the ability to stretch and warm up…

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

hehehe

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dang it.

Now I have a taste for Hershey kisses. Stupid diet.

"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Aug 10, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Turn it green...my thoughts exactly...

…except I am still a DLee fan.

It's 106 miles to Chicago...

by BDR529 on Aug 10, 2010 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've made my feelings clear on ...

Lee’s refusal to accept a trade last month. That said, criticizing him for last night is dumb.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Respect that position...

…I give him some slack to be selfish. He’s earned it with 10 and 5 rights.

It's 106 miles to Chicago...

by BDR529 on Aug 10, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's earned the right to reject the trade.

I’m not sure anyone earns the right to be selfish.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thank you.

Rec’d.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

See above

I suspect Lee probably did tell the Cubs earlier and they just figured it did not matter enough to rush Hoff on the next plane. I really don’t think Lee finally figured out at noon Monday that it was an emergency.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're assuming this because you want to.

You have no idea what happened, when he found out it was an emergency or what action was taken. Why even TRY to guess, because we’ll never know.

All we know is we had 23 players on the bench yesterday, and there’s not much else that needs to be said except I wish Lee’s family only the best.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Green this one, too.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

in regards to Soto...

Soto took BP and felt fine – it was in warmups after that that the shoulder started flaring up – nothing wrong with a guy trying to play through an injury a bit – no need for him to run to the school nurse when he has a runny nose.

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again this just happens too much too the Cubs

They have a long history of doing this. Remember when Hill had to play what 3 weeks because they would not put Soto on the DL? You should not screw around with catchers in particular.
Something is wrong when you have a 23 man roster.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

if you put soto

on the DL Hill is still playing for at least 2 weeks and possibly more including rehab assignments…also do you think it happens too much with the Cubs simply because we follow them day by day or because the Cubs are that poorly ran…and if the Cubs are that poorly ran how on God’s green earth have they had 3 winning seasons in a row?

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

At least you HAVE a back up catcher

The delay in realizing that Soriano was INJURED last year and the same this year with Ramirez are major contributing factors to them being out both seasons. Options may have been limited but if they had been addressed in April & May instead of Sept & August it makes a big difference.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree they did handle Soriano poorly

and I dont know why, perhaps he was trying his best to play through it or they thought he was better than any replacement we had even injured. Ramirez was handled better – they did try to let him play through it beginning the season but then DL’d him probably a little late.

With Soto earlier this year if I am remembering correctly Hill did a fine job of playing in his absence and it did give the Cubs a good look at what they had and this time, again it was a game-time decision.

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

huh?

Gave them a good look at what they had? Are you referring to Hill? Because they already knew what they had with Hill when he came in LAST YEAR.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Something wrong

“Something is wrong when you have a 23 man roster.”

Actually, two things were wrong. Geo’s shoulder flared up during warm-ups and Lee had to tend to a family emergency. Things happen.

Just because these two “things” occurred doesn’t mean the organization or any individual is at fault. If something was ignored or not tended to in a timely manner, then there was a problem. As far as we know, there were unexpected circumstances that arose that led to the team only having 23 players. If something changes then we can discuss.

by okiecubbie on Aug 10, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yay, stayed up til 1 o'clock just to hear Pat Hughes call the winner.

Not gonna stay up that late, since I’ve got soccer tryouts at the HS at 8 tomorrow morning.

by braziliancubsfan on Aug 10, 2010 9:10 AM CDT reply actions  

Alarm goes off @ 6:30 even if I wanted to

I have a busy Tuesday. I’d be one cranky girl

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

good luck at the tryouts

"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Aug 10, 2010 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Haha, so do I

Well, I’m not really playing, more of a team manager job now. My playing days are over.

by Azul Cachorro on Aug 10, 2010 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Soccer tryouts?

How does that work? Games of 5v5 with a keeper? Who can juggle the longest? I’m intrigued – please update us after it’s over.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Aug 10, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's really just a prolonged practice

Lots of situational drills and endurance tests, for holding out the 80 or 70 total minutes of each game. In my school, it’ll be three day long tryouts, from 8 AM to 2 PM each day. This sounds like a lot, and it is, but this resulted in a City Championship this past season, and considering we’ve never been a soccer powerhouse in the city, this is a great start.

by Azul Cachorro on Aug 10, 2010 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

the Left Coast

Yeah, I stayed up until the end, putting up with the Giant announcers’ disparagement of our team.

Got chilly even down here in Cupertino last night.

by thermal54 on Aug 10, 2010 9:12 AM CDT reply actions  

To paraphrase Animal House...

“They can’t disparage our team…only WE can disparage our team!

It's 106 miles to Chicago...

by BDR529 on Aug 10, 2010 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I suggest calling up Sandberg on an interim basis (like Seattle did)...

.. and see how he performs over the last 50 games. Then at least he will have MLB experience and Hendry can make a more informed decision at the end of the season. Maybe it will turn out that Sandberg needs more seasoning or maybe he is ready. Give him 50 games to showcase his talents.

"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse

by ronsanto10 on Aug 10, 2010 9:17 AM CDT reply actions  

+1

If you bring in Sandberg now, then you actually get something redeemable out of an otherwise lost season. That and getting Castro, Colvin and Cashner more time on a big league field.

Scott Bora$ is satan.

by Canadian Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

What do you get out of it?

I’m honestly asking because I really don’t understand the need to rush Sandberg up here for a month.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Because if he's going to be the guy...

… get him in here and let the air be cleared of “Lou-ness” now.

I believe he should be the guy. There’s really no need to wait. Half the guys he’s going to be managing are here already — and he’s managed them in the minor leagues. Go ahead and do it.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly!

Doing nothing will give exactly that, nothing! If he’s Cub management’s guy, bring him up now and let him kick over some buffet tables and let these stiffs know that the Cubs Country Club is closed and you either bust ass or you’re sitting on the bench!

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

There's a new word just for Cubs fans

“Tonight’s lineup was jacked up due to Louness.”

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Aug 10, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

There is absolutely no reason to punish Sandberg by forcing him to deal with the lot of players that quit two months ago. Starting fresh with him in the spring is completely different. There is no reason to taint his tenure, if indeed he has one, by letting him trip over fading stars who are more interested in dinner than playing baseball.

"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder

by krummy12 on Aug 10, 2010 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

'Punish' Sandberg?

If he’s your guy, and you think he’d be a good manager, wouldn’t you want him to get here ASAP to see what he can do? (I’m not advocating that, of course, but I understand the logic behind it.)

If you’re saying “start fresh” with him, I think that’s at least a tacit acknowledgment he isn’t up to the job.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 10, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

or its an acknowledgement that it wont do anything positive to hand a new manager

this bad a team. I wasn’t in favor of Schowalter starting this year either

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

wow I think you are over the top NBF on your Ryno opinions

So I am shocked that I am agreeing you

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

then we are locked into him as a manager

I would rather have a search at end of season.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd go with Roeper's idea first

Jim has already said it’s going to be an exhaustive search (I don’t really buy that, but from his lips to god’s ears) for the new manager. The bench coach can be named the interim guy for the last month and then you actually hire a permanent guy in October

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

I hate that kind of writing

It feels like a handshake with one hand and a stab in the back with the other.

A good organization would stand behind Lou and whatever he decides to do. You just don’t suggest that to an employee when they have a family issue to deal with.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Aug 10, 2010 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

You don't suggest they stay home and deal with their family issues?

It’s not like his mother is going to get much better. She’s 90.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

but that should be his choice

not managements.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous

If I had an employee who told me, “boss, I’m going to be leaving after September. Oh, and I’m also not going to be around here much during the last month” And that employee had been someone who was doing an extremely poor job even before he announced he was leaving I’d be well within my rights to go "You know employee, why don’t we just part ways now?

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

I can't imagine my boss doing something like that

Frankly, I can’t imagine a human being doing something like that.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 10, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

What?

That happens all the time — an employee putting in his notice and then management relieving him of his duties prior to the given date.

by kanderber on Aug 10, 2010 12:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Especially if they are being fully paid.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the key difference here...

is that the Cubs are paying Piniella either way. Most bosses can terminate early and get out of having to pay that employee.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

It wouldn't happen where I work

Maybe I’m in a lucky situation, but then again I think this whole debate is stupid.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 10, 2010 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

You are lucky...

…most corporations/companies do what is in their interest when push comes to shove, not the employee’s interest.

It's 106 miles to Chicago...

by BDR529 on Aug 10, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

however,

MLB and most workplaces are different in this regard…especially with a manager with a career like Lou’s…basically if you are writing the season off anyway and the manager is retiring after this year you let him go how he wants to go, especially someone who will probably be in the HOF if for no other reason to send a message that you will be treated right by the Cubs to future free agents…

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your points are valid.

It’s something that a compassionate management might suggest, under the circumstances, and maybe Lou would agree. I am not suggesting a firing at all.

The point is, maybe it’d be good for Lou to be with his mother NOW, instead of waiting till October… when she might not be around at all.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why are you being so heartless Al?

Lou wants to finish the season. He can probably just take a few days off per week to visit his mother. I can’t believe anyone would suggest he be urged to leave or let go because he has a sick mother.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm hardly being heartless.

You are. What if mom dies before October?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Guess I was missing the irony font again

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Guess so.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Unless you feel your employee can not perform their job, you show support for their choice. Some people do better by going to work.

A boss who suggest you stay home isn’t looking out for the organization. He’s looking out for himself.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Aug 10, 2010 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

No, he's looking out for the organization

Lou has already shown to be doing a piss poor job this season

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

You don't repair an organzation in August and September

And if you (Jim Hendry) thought he was doing a bad job before, you talk to him then. Not when a family issue arises.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Aug 10, 2010 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

If you bring Sandberg in then you're committing to Sandberg long term. He's not the guy they want.

Once they know what Girardi is going to do, then they’ll make the move. It’s Girardi first…then everybody else…but that’s just me.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure that they've decided on that yet.

I think they want to interview both of them, at least. They don’t want to hire Sandberg without talking to Joe.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why you don't want to face Pat Burrell in that game ending situation

With the bases loaded, 141 ABs and 132 RBIs. There probably wasn’t much else you could do.

I stayed up last night. It’s 2 hours and I can sleep in the winter.

"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas

by RiskyBusiness on Aug 10, 2010 9:18 AM CDT reply actions  

I wonder what the record is for loosing (and for that matter winning) one run games is.

 
Oh, and, I’m far enough east that I got up early to catch the last innings.

The MLB AtBat (iPhone app) stopped functioning at the top of the 11th, while I was on my way to work. By the time MLB-AM got its act together the game was over.

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 9:24 AM CDT reply actions  

I believe the record for most one-run losses...

… is 44, set in 1968 by the White Sox. They played 74 one-run games that year, which I think is also the record for a single season.

The Cubs have played 40 one-run games this year. 74 is a lot, but the Cubs can come close to that.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well they still have 50 games to go, so they really could still break this sad record.

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is the Cubs

If they get to game 160 and are one game away from tying the record (and two away from breaking it), they’d find a way to blow it. They’d win their last two games, each by 2 runs.

We have met the enemy and they are us! ~ Walt Kelly, Pogo, 1971

by Zeke on Aug 10, 2010 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

LOL

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Tigers did a similar thing in 2003. After game 159, they stood

at 40-119, all but guaranteeing that they would break the modern record for fewest wins in a season. Then they went and won the last 3.

So it rendered a bad, bad season even MORE meaningless.

We have met the enemy and they are us! ~ Walt Kelly, Pogo, 1971

by Zeke on Aug 10, 2010 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Frankly, Alan Trammell deserves better.

He put in too many classy years in Detroit playing for good and bad Tigers teams to have to sit through the carnage both the Tigers and the Cubs have put him through as a manager.

We have met the enemy and they are us! ~ Walt Kelly, Pogo, 1971

by Zeke on Aug 10, 2010 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well ...

the Cubs have put him through about 15 games as manager. So I don’t know if the Cubs organization should have treated him better.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Or maybe Trammell just isn't a good manager

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's almost as bad as the Spiders in 1899 (20-134)

But then again the Spiders were raped by their own front office.

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

On the subject of brimming optimism...

…here’s a clip I found from the ‘83 Cubs home opener. Listening to the broadcast, you wouldn’t have expected to see 91 losses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQfe62W2c_k

by Flatley on Aug 10, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just watched all of it - Very saddening

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

It depends on your definition of the modern era

1899 20-134 Cleveland Spiders
1916 36-117 Philadelphia Athletics
1935 38-115 Boston Braves
1962 40-120 New York Mets
1904 38-113 Washington Senators
1919 36-104 Philadelphia Athletics
1898 39-111 St. Louis Browns
2003 43-119 Detroit Tigers

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thinking back, it was the 120 LOSSES in the modern era (1900+) that was the key stat

not the win total. And they blew setting that loss record.

We have met the enemy and they are us! ~ Walt Kelly, Pogo, 1971

by Zeke on Aug 10, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Zambrano Walks Entire Bay Area"

Al, if I’ve told you once, I’v told you a MILLION times not to exaggerate!

We have met the enemy and they are us! ~ Walt Kelly, Pogo, 1971

by Zeke on Aug 10, 2010 9:36 AM CDT reply actions  

Except for

Al didn’t say which bay and what the population of said bay is. And, by the way, walking the bay sounds like walking a dog.

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Appx. 7 million people

About a million more than Frankfurt, if that helps.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Aug 10, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I am sure there

are bays in remote areas that only have 7 people living in them – quick to google to find out.

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Prudhoe Bay

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't normally be contrary on this site

but Al rips on Z any chance he gets. They guy finally gets to pitch after sitting on his ass most of the season and isn’t sharp. wow, shocker. Z could have thrown a no-hitter (again) and the calls for trading from Al would have been in typed in Bold and all Caps.

sorry Al, I like big Z and don’t like the constant ripping on the guy or calls for trading him. but that’s me.

The 2010 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp ruled!!!!

by VegasCubFan on Aug 10, 2010 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

You like him?

Great. Talk to me again when he performs up to his abilities and his contract.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

you can't rip Z for not living up to his contract.

He didn’t really deserve his contract in the 1st place. I’ve never viewed Z as a #1 starter. His best years were when he was the #3 starter going into a season (2003-05). Z has never had the mental makeup to be a #1 Ace. It’s Hendry’s fault for believing he was more than that.

He got his contract because he was the last man standing among the 3 Horses of 2003. Prior was supposed to be the guy with Z’s contract…..

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

No, he got the contract because in August 2007 ...

comparable pitchers were getting comparable deals. Look at Zito’s contract.

Anyway, letting Z off the hook for not maturing at all since his career started is a joke.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Why do people always blame players for their contracts?
Talk to me again when he performs up to his abilities and his contract.

Perform up to his abilities? Sure. He’s been very good every year up until this one. Even last year, if you can get past his win / loss record he actually had a pretty good year.

But perform up to his contract? What would you do if you were offered more salary than you’re worth? Would you say, “No, Jim – thanks, but I’m really more of a $12M a year pitcher.”

It’s just silly.

by Wreckard on Aug 10, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

ZAMBRANO DEFENDER

you should rot in the 7th level of hell – what are you going to defend him for next…when he kills a small kitten? Have you no shame?????

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Win loss record is an overated stat

The 2010 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp ruled!!!!

by VegasCubFan on Aug 10, 2010 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

There was one time I refused an end-of-year bonus

because I had royally screwed up a project my company was counting on being ready on time and under budget. My inspiration? Al Kaline and Lyman Bostock.

I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.

by EalyEagle on Aug 10, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is spot on...

…Chicago Cub management issue, not Z issue.

Everyone knew at the time of the signing that the contract had lots of risk. But since he was a known commodity, Cubs felt it was worth the risk.

Hard to have buyers remorse now…

It's 106 miles to Chicago...

by BDR529 on Aug 10, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Zambrano

has had control problems forever….or at least since he signed that damn contract. Rusty or not, Z walking the ballpark is nothing new and IMO, the main reason why he has not lived up to his contract.

"All I want is food and creative love" - Rusted Root

by TheRiot Police on Aug 10, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree, he walks way too many people and wastes tons of pitches

I still irrationally like him. He has passion and fire, something lacking on this team. Does it work at all, not really, but at least I see a veteran on this team that hustles and wants to win (Byrd excluded). Flame on!

The 2010 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp ruled!!!!

by VegasCubFan on Aug 10, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

He is still a useful pitcher. Just like Fukudome is a useful Outfielder

If you can trade either guy and not pay their contracts (not happening) you do it.

But the notion that you dump either guy at any cost is completely false.

Slot Z in at #3 and let him be an innings eater.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

everyone will say Z is not an innings eater

which unfortunately is mostly true, until he trusts his pitches and stops wasting his arm on 3-2 counts continuously, he is not a true innings eater.

The 2010 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp ruled!!!!

by VegasCubFan on Aug 10, 2010 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Al was a Z apologist

until the dugout tirade. Some of us figured Z out years ago.

Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. -- Albert Einstein

by Worf on Aug 10, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

If I remember correctly

Al thought Z should have been gone when Z beat the crap out of Barrett. That was quite a while ago. You must have Al confused with someone else.

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Aug 10, 2010 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sue is correct.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry, just saw you two responded to this

Al, I clearly remember you taking me to task for criticizing Z’s approach to his at-bats last year (and the year before)

I wasn’t here when Z went after Barrett, so if you were sounding the alarm then, mea culpa.

But I don’t recall you following up with that over the last couple of years

Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. -- Albert Einstein

by Worf on Aug 11, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mateo

If you don’t believe Mateo is a prospect then you may as well lump a bunch of guys together and make the same claim. Quite frankly, that would be appropriate because guys like Mateo, Stevens, Berg, Coleman, Russell, Samardzija, Atkins, Caridad, et.al….are essentially the same guy.

Very, very spotty fastball command. Very inconsistent secondary pitches. Completely lacking out pitches and woefully lacking in pitching intelligence.

Getting back to your argument as to whether the Cubs can contend in 2011, look no further than the absolute dearth of difference-making arms in the organization for your real answer. This pitching staff has regressed almost annually for the past few years and stands to get worse and worse when the “prospect” arms keep showing that they are organizational arms if that. Save for a few reasonable prospects with their own flaws…Cashner, McNutt, Archer and possibly guys like Carpenter and Dolis…the rest of this lot is putrid.

That lack of pitching depth is really going to make it difficult for this organization to contend for anything in the coming few years.

"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder

by krummy12 on Aug 10, 2010 9:47 AM CDT reply actions  

Wait, what??

The one thing this farm system has is some good pitching depth. Of course these guys have flaws, a lot of them are 19-23 years old – if they didn’t have flaws, they’d be up at the major league level.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Crazy

Check the pitching depth of some of the other organizations in baseball and compare their top-tier arms with what the Cubs claim to be top-tier arms. To be perfectly frank, there is no comparison.

If “pitching depth” means you trot out a bunch of mop-up guys like Mateo, Stevens, et.al., then yes, the Cubs have it. If you’re talking difference-making pitching depth, the Cubs do NOT have it at any level of their system.

"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder

by krummy12 on Aug 10, 2010 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would argue that you could put guys like

Cashner, Jackson, McNutt, Archer and Carpenter against most systems top 5 and we would come out on top.

No, we don’t have that “ace” in our system right now, but we have 2 potential #2 types in McNutt and Cashner, a #2/3 type in Jackson, and #3/4 in Archer and Carpenter.

That’s not even going deeper into the lower levels. If you think they’re “mop up” guys, that’s fine. I think it’s just frustration on your part, which I completely understand.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

You guys aren't talking about the same guys.

Krummy is talking about guys who are from the system currently on the MLB roster. Other than Cashner and maybe Russell, none of those guys has been very good.

Bdulgz is talking about prospects that are farther away. There is hope with some of those guys, but Atkins/Berg/Caridad/Schlitter/Mateo etc. have been pretty terrible.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

See, I knew you and I could agree on something.

The Triple-A guys who have been here this year — as you said, apart from Russell & Cashner — are pretty much gone after this year. I doubt we’ll see any of them in 2011, nor should we.

The lower level prospects are the people to get excited about — particularly Archer, I think. He could be in the rotation next year.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

BTW, Al ...

the post by Ace Venom — while not exactly what I’d do — is more productive than citing other examples of Cub rebounds.

You’ve said you’ll write something like that soon. With respect, I’m going to hold you to that.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Here's the problem I run into.

I have, in fact, written long posts the last two years about how I think the Cubs could improve.

I got laughed at. So you can understand why I’m cautious about doing that again.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

I believe many more people read those posts and remain silent

than those who laugh at you. The comments from the same posters all the time don’t reflect how all readers feel, as I’m normally just a reader.

by CubFan90 on Aug 10, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Laughed at? Really?

Well, if that’s the case, then I sort of understand. I often disagree with you, but I don’t think you do much that’s laughable.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks, I appreciate that.

It makes me leery of making another one of those posts, but I’ll probably do it anyway.

A comment in an August game recap isn’t the place for that.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

A piece of advice?

Your “it’s-happened-before-it-can-happen-again” logic is REALLY wearing thin. Optimism is fine — and I share it in a way — but the reasoning behind your optimism should shift from past examples of turnarounds to reasons why you think the organization at this particular point can turn things around.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

All the quality pitching prospects

in our minors are starters. To try and convert a starter into a bullpen guy just by calling him up is crazy. So we call the non prospects up who get hammered by big league hitters and then we try to make judgment on the entire minor league system.

In truth, we have a number of pitchers in the minors who appear to be good enough to eventually start when called up. But we don’t seem to groom quality relievers in the systym. Marshall was converted after coming up, as was Marmol. Cashner was a quality reliever in college but was tried to turn him into a starter in our system.

I’m convinced we will never have success bring up a starter from the minors and trying to slot him as a middle reliever immediately in the majors. That’s like taking a SS and asking him to catch.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Aug 10, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

I believe that most MLB relievers were starters in the minors...

There are always exceptions (Huston Street for example), of course. But generally speaking, if your stuff isn’t good enough to be a starter in the minors, you probably weren’t good enough to pitch int he majors period.

Most teams just call up MiLB starters when they need a bullpen arm. For example, the Rays didn’t need a starter last year, so they used David Price out of the pen. It’s just one example, but it’s them norm. So I don’t have a problem with the practice of calling up MiLB starters and converting them to the bullpen.

The key is having enough quality arms in the minors that you can call some up as starters and some up as relievers, as needed. The problem for us is that our available AAA arms haven’t been (for the most part) MLB ready.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

My point is

Russell, Berg, Stevens, Atkins, Schlitter and Mateo were all relievers in the minors when they were called up. And none of them had given indication of being shut down relievers. It seems foolish to call them up to our pen and presume they wouldn’t do poorly. The only option then is to make our best pitching prospects into relievers in the minors but we don’t do that.

If we continue to fill our bullpen with 2nd rate prospects, we’ll continue to fail.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Aug 10, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

That is far from the only option (nor is it even a good option)

the better option is to simply get more good prospects and try to fill the pen with cheap guys. Nobody takes their best pitching prospects and converts them to relievers in the minors. And they shouldn’t.

It makes no sense to convert a guy to a reliever until you’re absolutely sure he can’t make it as a starter. Good pitchers will be able to make the transition. Bad ones won’t. And pitching in relief in the minors isn’t going to make a guy a better MLB reliever. Getting experience in the majors is what is going to make a guy a better reliever (and better pitcher in general).

We’ve had plenty of guys who have had success in the bullpen with no prior experience there (Marshall, Marmol, Guzman). Those guys didn’t need to be converted first before being functional relievers. So the problem isn’t that our good pitchers aren’t prepared to pitch out of the bullpen. The problem is that we just don’t have enough good pitchers.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps. I latched onto the end of his first post.
This pitching staff has regressed almost annually for the past few years and stands to get worse and worse when the "prospect" arms keep showing that they are organizational arms if that. Save for a few reasonable prospects with their own flaws…Cashner, McNutt, Archer and possibly guys like Carpenter and Dolis…the rest of this lot is putrid.

That lack of pitching depth is really going to make it difficult for this organization to contend for anything in the coming few years.

He made it sound like these were reasonable prospects that were likely not going to be good enough to build a staff around. I completely disagree with that assessment.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Partly agree

I would agree in part that the five guys we both listed are resonable prospects for the rotation sooner or later. I would also agree that none of those guys is a No. 1 and would augment that argument by suggesting that if you don’t have a No. 1, you don’t have much at all. I think the current staff shows that…you’ve got a few guys who are above average but without a true No. 1, you’re pushing water uphill more often than not.

Without a true No. 1, I can’t agree that the five you mentioned above would stack up favorably with most teams. Some teams perhaps but not most. Middle of the pack to be honest.

And with few difference-making hitters in the pipeline, a middle of the pack set of arms just isn’t enough when you are a budget-conscious “large-market” club.

"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder

by krummy12 on Aug 10, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

As these players come up and start filling in the #2, 3, 4 and 5 spots

And as we hopefully pull up a couple of Brett Jackson, Hak-Ju Lee, Vitters types in 2 years, we can afford to pay a #1 and at the same time fill in the holes we have in our farm.

I don’t think there as many “ace” pitchers in the minores as you seem to suggest. They are pretty few and far between, unless you’re a farm like the Rangers or Rays.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Alan Trammell reminded me of Felipe Alou with the relievers

Did you get a Jerry Garcia bobblehead, Al?

"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow

by 49er16 on Aug 10, 2010 9:55 AM CDT reply actions  

No.

Apparently, that was some kind of special voucher ticket that was sold out long ago. And then they made those people traipse all the way to the view level (upper deck) to get one.

Not the way to handle a promotion, IMO.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wow

They’ve never done that before. It must have been whoever bought that voucher, the money was sent to charity.

"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow

by 49er16 on Aug 10, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think we should start a thread for crazy scenarios of how they'll lose games.

I think coming up with outlandish ideas like “they walk 11 and still take it to extras” could be fun.

Tonight, Hill will go 3-5 with a 3-R HR and they’ll still lose.

by chilango2 on Aug 10, 2010 10:01 AM CDT reply actions  

Stop that crazy talk

Hill will be lucky to hit the floor when he rolls out of bed.

The 2010 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp ruled!!!!

by VegasCubFan on Aug 10, 2010 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't believe the Cubs will compete in 2011 unless they spend like the Yankees in the offseason

That’s not the best organizational strategy unless you have the revenue to spare and since the Cubs don’t, 2011 should be another rebuilding year. We have far too many problems to fix with three or four solid moves.

1) Lack of power production at first base is a problem the Cubs can fix in the offseason, but it all depends on how much money they’ll be able to spend. I still believe the Cubs should go after Adam Dunn.

2) Starting rotation is weak. With Ted Lilly gone and likely Carlos Zambrano gone, that doesn’t leave us with a lot of depth in the starting rotation. There just aren’t many good arms in the Cubs system, which leaves us with free agency to fill a hole. I don’t expect the Cubs to afford Cliff Lee because it’s likely he’ll be in Yankee pinstripes next season. However, it’s still a possibility we could get Lee given the fact that he wants a no-trade clause and we have a GM that loves to give those.

3) The lack of a true leadoff hitter. We’ve had this problem for years and we have to hope Starlin Castro develops well enough here.

4) We need to do something with Fukudome’s contract. If Hendry can work a miracle here like he’s shown in the past, we could get some salary relief from Fukudome’s contract. As much as people like to get on Hendry for Soriano, Fukudome is Hendry’s biggest bust. Colvin has proven that he can hit righties and lefties, so there’s no reason to keep Fukudome around unless no one can be found to take him.

5) The bullpen is godawful outside of Carlos Marmol, Sean Marshall and, to some degree, Andrew Cashner. If you’re going to propose putting Marshall or Cashner back into the rotation, the bullpen gets even worse. The Cubs seriously need to upgrade the pen because the bullpen has been about as bad as the Cubs offense. And please suggest someone that isn’t Kerry Wood.

6) Fix in the middle infield situation. This situation will probably fix itself because if Hendry has done anything well, it’s dealing with the middle infield.

Now if Aramis Ramirez can have another normal season next year, there’s no telling what will happen. But it’s going to take way more than four moves to get the Cubs back in contention.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 10:01 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

This is pretty much on target.

I don’t think Lee and Dunn can both possibly be Cubs next year, and I’d pick Lee over Dunn. But I bet Dunn is more likely.

Also, James Russell might end up being a guy who is a decent middle reliever. It’s a minimal payoff from this year’s ill-fated day care bullpen experiment. But it’s something.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

The key is to improve slowly

Add pieces in free agency and develop players. If it gets you to the playoffs next season, that’s great. It’s far better than not doing anything at all.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

I mentioned this above, but here's what I hope Hendry does:

1) If at all possible, sign Cliff Lee. Fill 1B with a scrap-heap pickup or try Colvin there.

2) If that doesn’t work, sign Lilly and Dunn. Lilly will probably only require a short deal, and he and Dempster can be No. 2 and No. 3 starters to whoever is signed in the 2011-12 offseason. Dunn (if the price is right) becomes our 1B for three of four years.

Both strategies make us better in 2011 and set us up to be even better in 2012.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think the Cubs could realistically swing getting both Lee and Dunn

It just depends on how much magic Hendry can work in the offseason.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't see it happening.

I don’t think the Cubs will have the money to do it, and I wonder if Hendry will have the time to do it. It’s possible that this offseason will be spent (like last year’s): Hendry on the phone trying to ditch an unproductive and overpaid outfielder. And he might have to do the same thing with Z.

I think Dunn and Lilly are Cubs next year.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think it's hilarious that this is the only flaw you could find

I didn’t mean literal magic, of course. I simply meant this is where Hendry is at his best: moving figurative mountains to get what he wants. He’s done this before and it’s possible to do it again.

Please let your feud with me go.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Um ... I don't know if I'd give Hendry credit for that.

Moving “figurative mountains”? Usually, Hendry is digging himself out of figurative holes that he caused.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

He does a bit of both

He freed up salary to get Milton Bradley and still managed to get salary relief for him after that move failed. He also managed to get someone to take Ryan Theriot off his hands to save money without having to take a chance on an unproven minor leaguer to take his place on the field and in the lineup.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Um, Ace ...

Jim Hendry should NOT get credit for freeing up money to sign Milton Freaking Bradley. That was part of the single worst chain of events in Hendry’s career.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Simplified

My point: Hendry is good as moving stuff to get what he wants. I use examples no matter if they were great moves or not.
Reply: Don’t give him credit for Bradley.

When I’m simply making a point how Hendry can move money around to get what he wants. Whether the move was good or not is irrelevant in my argument, which isn’t that difficult to see.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Whether the move was good or not is irrelevant in my argument, which isn’t that difficult to see.

Sure it’s relevant. I see your point, but if he’s going to do this, he’d better make damn sure the money-moving move is going to work — otherwise why do it at all?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying it's an invitation to waste money

I know the Bradley move is probably the most unpopular move since sending Brock to St. Louis, but he at least turned it into a positive.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's too soon to say if it's a positive on it's own.

And, really, that chain of events surrounding MB might have cut short the 2007-08’s window by a year. So it’s certainly not a NET positive.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Injuries did that

Alfonso Soriano, Aramis Ramirez, Ryan Dempster, Carlos Zambrano and others could not stay on the field. Bradley didn’t help, but he wasn’t the only reason last season’s team didn’t finish first.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

He certainly wasn't the only reason.

But note that I’ve been saying “the chain of events surrounding MB.” Getting him made the Cubs a lot less deep, because it meant replacing DeRosa with Miles and dumping Marquis for nothing.

What’s really astonishing is that if Hendry hadn’t signed three guys — Gathright, Gaudin and Miles — he would have had enough money to keep DeRosa AND sign Bradley.

Beyond that, Hendry overspent on MB and missed better, cheaper options (Abreu, Hudson). MB on his own didn’t close the window — but Hendry’s actions to get MB probably did.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

And if Aramis and Soriano stay healthy?

And the rest? Aramis was having an MVP caliber season before he went down. I don’t know if it would have been enough to win a pennant, but I’ve seen a team weaker than the 2009 Cubs win it all in recent memory.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

It was irresponisble ...

to start the season without a true backup to Aramis Ramirez, who has never been the healthiest of players.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hendry did have a backup

Fontenot and Miles were available off the bench, but both turned in awful seasons in 2009. Miles just happened to have one of the worst ever seasons of a major leaguer in 2009. I do blame the organization for not bringing up Jake Fox sooner, but there weren’t a whole lot of backup third basemen lying around. I don’t think moving DeRosa was that great of an idea in hindsight, but only because Miles and Fontenot stunk up the joint so horribly and there was no effort made to get Fox ready to play third.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fontenot had NEVER played 3B in the majors ...

so assuming he could back up Aramis is revisionist history. And I DO blame Hendry for the Miles signing.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I never said I didn't blame Hendry for Miles

I don’t think anyone could have predicted how awful Miles was going to be last season.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hope Silva can come back and pitch well in September.

If he does, it might be possible to move his contract.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why?

Perhaps the heart issue is the reason he pitched poorly in July.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps it's because he is terribly overweight

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Aug 10, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's part of it, I'm sure.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Moving his contract ...

will require the Cubs to eat some salary. He has had a good year, but would you want a 1-year rental on a $12 million pitcher who was horrible for two years, had a good first half and then had heart problems?

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

No question about it

I was never a fan of Silva. But he did impress me with his saviness as a pitcher. BUT… He has got to get in better physical shape. In most every game he has had at least some minor injury. No more excuses. Get in shape. Someone needs to talk to his momma and convince her to convince him.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Aug 10, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right

Hendry has shown a history of being able to shed salary. The question is whether he can do so while making a good baseball move in the process.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm going to defend Hendry

As much as I think he should go after this season, I don’t think all of his moves have been awful.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

It sure sounded like you were giving Hendry credit for making lemonaid ...

out of his own lemons — when he shouldn’t be making lemons in the first place.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Imagine my point being a circle on a board

Your dart landed well outside of it.

I repeat for one last time, I am not giving Hendry credit for his bad moves. I simply said he’s capable of moving money to get what he wants. That was a completely neutral statement.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think you read more into it than was there

I read it the way Ace Venom is saying he/she intended it (when he’s needed to shed money, he’s been able to do so).

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

I know you didn't mean literal magic

It’s still a ridiculous post.

You think it’s “realistic” without basically having any idea how it’s realistic. When has Hendry ACTUALLY “moved mountains” to shed salary? He made room for Bradley but he didn’t free up that much room.

You’re talking about having very few contracts realistically available to shed, and making room for two potentially HUGE contracts.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Any chance Guzman is back next year, I haven't heard much on him.

I know they said this could end his career. If he is back and healthy, he could be a major help for us.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agree to most

Cashner belongs in the rotation. He’s better dealing in the low 90’s than trying to blow hitters away in the mid-90’s in relief. His ball flattens and his command wanders when he tries throwing it by guys.

"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder

by krummy12 on Aug 10, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with the issues, though not some of the solutions...

1. It’s hard to say whether going after Dunn is a good idea or whether we should wait for the 2011 offseason. But getting consistent power production from that spot seems important.
2. The rotation is certainly a question mark. We have a solid #2 in Dempster, and several guys who could be #3-5 types (Wells, Gorzellany, Marshall, Silva). But we don’t have top-end starters, and it’s unclear if we have any guys in the system who could be top-end starters (maybe Cashner or Archer, but they may be a year or more away).
3. I don’t see Castro as a leadoff man at all. And I think trying to turn him into a leadoff man may perpetuate the problem further. He’s not a high OBP guy, and he doesn’t seem to be a huge base stealer (that’s less important than OBP though).
4. I think Fukudome has been marginalized now. It’s just a matter of how much money can be saved in getting rid of him.
5. Yes. The bullpen is atrocious. Marshall and Cashner arguably should be looked at for rotation work (I’d maybe return Cashner to AAA next year to get work as a starter if they have any intentions of him becoming a starter). That’s a huge question, and I don’t think the guys we’ve seen this year from the minors are an answer next year.
6. I think the middle infield is set for the next few years with Castro and DeWitt, and possibly Barney as the backup middle infielder. That’s the least of my concerns.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed on the bullpen.

Now, there were many here who wanted to sign various marginal veteran major leaguers to the pen (remember the Kiko Calero debate?) — I admit to being one of them, as I wanted Chan Ho Park. Obviously, that wouldn’t have worked either.

So what is the solution to the bullpen problems? Right now the Cubs have two competent relief pitchers: Marshall and Marmol. I’d be in favor of reducing the pen to six pitchers — Marshall, for one, can go longer than many — and that means you only have to find four, instead of five, others.

Who are they?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm honestly not sure of the solution to the bullpen

I think the optimal solution is getting guys from the minors to pan out as middle relievers. That way, you aren’t overpaying for that position. The difficulty with that is that you have to actually HAVE options in the minors.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

But there may be options in AAA

Samardzija, Russell, Diamond, and Jackson are guys who MIGHT be ready to pitch out of the pen next year. And there’s always Cashner, if the team decides to give up on him as a starter.

That’s not an exciting solution. But maybe it beats spending what little payroll we have on guys who don’t deserve it (like Grabow).

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Starters in the minors

are typically lousy as bullpen guys in the majors when first brought up. All our best pitchers down there start. Our relievers down there are lower level prospects. That’s the reason they’re betting bombed when called up. If we want to fill the pen effectively, I think we’ll have to get established relievers from other clubs. Remember Marshall and Marmol weren’t relievers in the minors.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Aug 10, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Correlation does not prove causation...

How do you know that minor leaguers aren’t just typically lousy when they first come up regardless of whether they were starting or relieving? It’s a big jump to go from AA or AAA to MLB. That would explain why guys often struggle when they come up. There’s no reason to assume that guys can’t make the transition and make it immediately. Plenty of guys have successfully made that transition.

I think it’s a bad idea to suggest that we have to get established relievers from other clubs. For one thing, we’d have to pay a premium for such players. For another thing, there are very few (if any) easily obtainable “established” relievers. The good ones become setup men/closers and get highly overpaid. Middle relievers tend to not be good consistently.

Teams simply don’t go about filling their bullpen with “proven” middle relievers. They typically bring in bargain basement guys or minor leaguers. It’s a routine that’s worked for years, and is certainly the most cost-effective approach. The issue is having the depth and identifying the right guys for the role.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Correlation doesn't disprove causation either

Tell me one rookie guy in our pen that you’d feel comfortable throwing into a close game? Name one pitcher in our minors that we look forward to filling a very poor middle bullpen. We just don’t have one, let alone 3-4.

Look at our playoff teams from 2008 and 2009. See if you can find any rookies that made a difference. The closest we came was Smardzjia in 08 and his WHIP was 1.41 that year.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Aug 10, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's a different argument

I’d argue the reason our rookies aren’t good out of the bullpen is simply because they just aren’t that good – not because they’ve been converted.

Good teams don’t go throwing money/prospects around for middle relievers. They develop them in-house or get them for close to the league minimum. And the reason for that is consistently good relievers either become closers or starters. They don’t stay in middle relief.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's called the scrap heap.

The Cubs, in past years, were successful at getting guys (see Ryan Dempster and Glendon Rusch) to fill out the bullpen and work toward more prominent roles. It doesn’t always work (Wade Miller), but a combination of scrap-heap pickups and giving young guys chances (see: Cardinals, St. Louis) is something the Cubs have somewhat abandoned. I don’t know why.

Instead, they overpay bad relievers and go with unproven kids.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree with that...

I definitely prefer the “stay cheap” approach to the bullpen. Get guys on minimum contracts and give minor leaguers chances. Don’t waste $2-4 million on middle relief.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hendry used to be good at scrap-heap acquisitions.

Even Scott Williamson had some value. But since 2007, he overpays for almost every veteran not named DeRosa or Byrd.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

You don't overpay for a reliever unless his name is Mariano Rivera

And he has a giant Not For Sale tag on him. Let the Yankees overpay for him.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not advocating overpaying for a reliever.

I’m saying that’s what the Cubs have consistently done.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Never claimed you did

It’s my weird way of agreeing with you.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Aug 10, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Weren't you in the Kiko Calero camp?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know it.

But I was never about OVERPAYING him. I wanted to sign him to a minor-league deal.

Such deals often work — see Glendon Rusch and Ryan Dempster. Sometimes, they don’t — see Calero and Wade Miller.

But the point is to TRY scrap heap deals as opposed to overpaying for guys like Grabow.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly...

Pay guys the league minimum (or close to it) to see who works. You can even bring in a bunch of guys to spring training at the league minimum and waive them if they don’t look like they’ll work or if the youngsters look better.

But paying substantial money for middle relief is not the way to go. Because you tend to overpay for guys who aren’t any better than the cheap alternatives.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks, SC.

I don’t know why this is such a tough concept.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like it
You can even bring in a bunch of guys to spring training at the league minimum

I like it a lot. Call it Bullpen Idol.

Bring them all in beginning of February for tryouts, anyone who can break 80 and throw a curve gets a minor league deal. Trim it down to about ten or so by the time pitchers & catchers report. Then every week, Jim, Larry (if he’s still here) & new manager get together and rate them – low score gets cut. By end of spring training, you’re down to 3-4 arms at major league minimum.

If you still need to get rid of somebody, have all the fans at the last spring training game vote. Line up the candidates on the field, then Dempster can walk behind them, give the thumbs up/down sign, and fans can cheer for their favorite.

Of course, this whole process get filmed and played on MLB Network later in the year.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Aug 10, 2010 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

One problem with the "sign Lee" scenarios

Why would he sign on with the 2011 Cubs? It’s a pretty weak looking roster, and he can get his money elsewhere with a stronger team (i.e., the Evil Empire). Why would he come to Chicago, even with a matching offer?

by ClarkFan on Aug 10, 2010 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes he did. So did Kerry Wood.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Aug 10, 2010 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sadly Ace I have to a agree

The rotation next year concerns me the most. Lilly gone, who knows what is going to happen to “Z”, Dempster is a 3 starter who still walks to many, and Wells has regressed from last year.
 They have to take care of this first IMO.
 Dunn would be great, but I see Overbay at first next year.
 Hendry screwed the finances of this team. Unless someone takes “Z” and Dome off of our hands, you will see a lot of bandaids on this team next year.
 The wild card in this mess is Ricketts. He wants to spend, then maybe the Cubs can get back in this.

by Grockcubs on Aug 10, 2010 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ozzie endores Ryno

The real Ozzie! Article

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 10:24 AM CDT reply actions  

More like good Ozzie...

…versus evil Ozzie.

It's 106 miles to Chicago...

by BDR529 on Aug 10, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Zambrano

If Silva is activated before the season ends, it will be interesting to see if Zambrano still stays in the rotation. In avoiding the team loss generality, I hang this loss on Zambrano. There’s a convncing case for getting Zambrano off the team. They can probably get enough salary relief for him to sign a bullpen arm likely to be as good or better than Z would be as a reliever.

Including the Lilly/Theriot trade and the bullpen revolving staff, the 25-man roster should have at least 10 different players opening next season.

by AboutTheCubs on Aug 10, 2010 10:28 AM CDT reply actions  

Even is Silva is activated who is the 5th starter?

For a guy who had not started in a long time, i did not think it was a horrible start. He can fix the the walks, it is a lot harder not to give up hits.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

One silver lining ...

in this horrible season is that the next two months will give Z a chance to audition — for a spot in the rotation next year and for other teams.

I’m glad his return isn’t coinciding with a pennant race.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sept 1

When they expand the roster they shouldn’t have trouble finding one.

I thought it was a bad start.

by AboutTheCubs on Aug 10, 2010 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Shouldn't have trouble finding one" ?

Really is that why Diamond has had two starts?

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

You didn't say anything about being a "good" fifth starter

We’ll have plenty of guys in September who can come in and throw starts (Samardzija, Diamond, etc) for the rest of this season.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Samardzija.

He needs to be brought up soon, if only so the Cubs can see if they’re getting their money’s worth.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed...

The team needs to see if he can be at least a solid relief option next year.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wow, look at this!

Agreement again! I hope this doesn’t cause any earthquakes while I’m here in northern California.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Everything under you (Hell) frozen solid?

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's a starter now.

The last thing he needs to see is another stint out of the pen. He’s improving. Let’s not be premature with his call up.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Aug 10, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

did diamond do well the

first time through the lineup? – if yes what we could do is have a starting pitching duo – Shark or Diamond for the first time through the lineup and then the other either until the 7th (if a blowout), or the next time through the lineup – should give us 5-6 innings – not bad for a 5th starter and then they could be each available for a pen outing on day 2 or 3

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you're asking about his start the other day ...

Diamond was the victim of bad defense. But he didn’t pitch that well either.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think Diamond...

… is being rewarded for his hard work in getting back from Tommy John surgery with a couple months in a major league uniform.

I don’t expect him back next year.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hope that's not the case.

That smacks of Bobby Scales syndrome to me, which isn’t what the Cubs ought to do with these two months. If Diamond isn’t in the long-term plans, dump his ass.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, wait a minute.

There aren’t major-league-ready arms available to step in. Not even Jay Jackson. And why would you want those guys part of this mess?

This is exactly what the Cubs did in 1999 and 2006 — take a look at some of the people who pitched in games those years, pitchers who never appeared again.

It’s a reward to good organizational soldiers in a lost season. I don’t have a problem with it.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Except, of course, for Samardzija, who should be here.

He’s an exception to that general rule.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I understand your point.

And the Shark caveat is important. But can Diamond be an organizational soldier after less than one season?

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure...

… and remember, he’s also here largely because Randy Bush was his college coach.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was actually thinking the same

thing last night. He’s got swing-and-miss stuff, but seems like he throws a lot of pitches. Granted, this was based on watching him pitch a total of 2 times. Also, if he knows he’s only got to pitch an inning or two out of the pen, perhaps he could get his velocity on FBs up to say 91-92, instead of 88-89 where he sits now.

I’d look into it, he reminds me a little of Joe Borowski.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Aug 10, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um.
I think Diamond is being rewarded for his hard work in getting back from Tommy John surgery with a couple months in a major league uniform.

Diamond had an ERA around 3 while striking out a batter per inning in AAA this season. This isn’t Les Walrond we’re talking about here, he’s a legitimately talented pitcher who has had a great year in the minors.

by Wreckard on Aug 10, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I dunno.

He has had a fine year at Iowa. Does that make him a major league pitcher at 27? Maybe, but I think time works against him.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

So is that the only reason you don't think he's a prospect?

Because of his age? Despite the fact that he’s a college draftee and lost a season to surgery, which he had a hard time coming back from?

He’s a former top prospect who has shown signs of his former self this season.

Shark will be on the roster next year whether or not he can prove himself. Guys like Diamond have the talent to succeed but need to be trialed to see if they’re deserving of a 40-man spot on next year’s team.

This isn’t some journeyman 30 year old minor leaguer getting a pat on the head by Hendry and told “Nice job slugger! Here’s your cup of coffee!” – this is planning for 2011 at work.

by Wreckard on Aug 10, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've never been a big fam of Shark

primarily due to the qicck track we put him on despite his lack of quality innings throwing for ND. He was what I truly call a unpolished prospect. However, he now seems to be making big strides in Iowa. I just don’t want to interfere with what seems to be working for him.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Aug 10, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I actually agree with this and don't understand the point of bringing up someone like Mateo

who can’t SERIOUSLY be in the future plans of the Cubs, instead of Shark, who the Cubs desperately need to determine whether or not he IS in the future plans.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

See, look!

You and I agree on something!

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why does it matter to the Cubs if they have Shark on the team or not?

It should matter to the Cubs that they have the best team possible. Why does the team have to suffer for the organizations’ mistake to overpay him not to play football?

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Aug 10, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Because at this point, everything should be an audition for next year

The Cubs should be attempting to see if Shark is going to be worth having on the 40 man roster.

If Mateo was some hot prospect who had a future with the club, your argument would make some sense, but he’s roster filler for this season only. There’s no reason to have him here, and shark in Iowa.

Fielding “the best team possible” is not being done right now.

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

He can't fix the walks

that has been one of his main pitching problems for years….He is 30 something years old. At some point, you are what you are….

"All I want is food and creative love" - Rusted Root

by TheRiot Police on Aug 10, 2010 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

holy hell

we agree – for the 1st start back – not bad Z…I think I saw a quote that said his stuff was moving more than he wanted…perhaps a good sign, maybe Z can come back and be productive – not ace productive but just decent…maybe he hit bottom and is now ready to be more grownup

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the real title of this recap should be

Free Falling this team is Free Falling!

The 2010 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp ruled!!!!

by VegasCubFan on Aug 10, 2010 10:40 AM CDT reply actions  

Going to the game

tonight…. any suggestion on good a section to sit in?

by cubbiefanTN on Aug 10, 2010 10:46 AM CDT reply actions  

Groan.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Al,

are you going to all 4 games this week? i’m going to try and make the thursday afternoon game as well. where are your seats?

by cubbiefanTN on Aug 10, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, I'll be there.

Have not bought a Thursday ticket yet. Email me if you do wind up making it, I’ll let you know. Same for anyone else who’s going to be at the games.

I will be in section 132, row 26 tonight (the ticket says L132R, whatever that means).

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

good deal...

it will be nice to meet you. I’ve enjoyed reading BCB for several years now.

by cubbiefanTN on Aug 10, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe see you there

We’ll be in LB109 (1st base line). We will make all four games. I think 132 is left field line, lower box. Stop by and say hello.

It was funny to see all the old dead heads come out to a baseball game. I haven’t seen that many men with gray ponytails in one place before. It was not fun to listen to Walton drone on and on before the game about how much the Dead meant to him.

Oh yeah. And Soriano looked terrible in left field again.

wccubfan

by wccubfan on Aug 10, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Will try to find you there.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

maybe that's the answer

"You’re playing a baseball game. You’re not playing Tiddlywinks. There is competition, for God’s sake."— Lou Piniella

by PacificCub on Aug 10, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

You can be a die-hard, and

not have “think the Cubs can get back in it because they have a mathematical chance”

In fact, I’d say your even more of a die-hard if you stay up and watch the game, even though you know there is no hope. That was me last night.

"The Cubs are due in sixty-two." - #14

by BatCubFan on Aug 10, 2010 11:03 AM CDT reply actions  

It was a good ballgame....

… in spite of the walks.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Me too.

It is the masochist in me.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Aug 10, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Same with me here on the East Coast

2 A.M. was late when I had to get up to go to work in the morning.

"No enemy is more dangerous, than the enemy that has nothing to lose." Mark Grace

by GateCity, VA Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Relievers

Great comments on how managers mis-use relievers, Al. You know I’m with you. I hope the next Cub manager isn’t addicted to lefty-righty matchups.

"They found a delivery in my flaw." - Dan Quisenberry

by danimal15 on Aug 10, 2010 11:08 AM CDT reply actions  

There's a time and place for playing the LH-RH thing

The 6th inning, in order to turn Andres Torres to his “weaker” side, is neither the time nor the place.

Shut up Joe Morgan.

by fsuapollo on Aug 10, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

This reads like a hit piece

Zambrano wasn’t at his best, but for not having started a game in weeks he did fine. His pitches had a ton of movement (so much that Zambrano was having trouble controlling it), his velocity looked good, and on the whole made pitches when he needed to to get out of trouble.

You’re going so far out of your way to frame that start in a negative light that it’s hilarious. He left the game with a lead, and pitched well. What more can you ask of a starter?

by Wreckard on Aug 10, 2010 11:21 AM CDT reply actions  

well, for one you can ask that he not walk 7 in five innings

I agree that it was not an abysmal start, but you’re walking a thin line when you say he was rusty and should get a pass for his lack of control, then turn around and say, “what more can you ask from a starter?”

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are you assuming

You must be assuming the 7 walks and the WP would have been outs had he pitched with more control.

He’s been an unreliable pitcher for almost two years.

by AboutTheCubs on Aug 10, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is the biggest myth that has been perpetuated about BigZ

Everyone should take a look at his stats from 2009. He had a 3.5 ERA in 29 starts, which was good for 3.6 WAR. That’s solid production from BigZ. His terrible performance in 2010 is the result of the Cubs moving him around from the rotation to the bullpen and back again TWICE (with anger management counselling in between)

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=305&position=P

which was pretty much in line with Dempster (3.6 WAR) and Lilly (3.7 WAR) and better than Randy Wells (2.9 WAR).

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're right.

(sarcasm) A 3.5 WAR is totally worth $18,000,000. (/sarcasm)

Unfortunately, when you pay that much, you’re looking for at least a 6 win pitcher, and not a 3.5…

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Aug 10, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

ya and unfortunatly

Z didnt offer himself that much – Hendry did…is Z underperforming his potential or did Z get paid too much – a little of both

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

The issue is really that he's overpaid for his solid-not-great production...

Those Fangraphs value estimates appear to have some limitations, one of them being that free agent players aren’t paid linearly for their expected WAR value. Teams tend to overpay for mid-level and lower-level WAR guys but pay less per WAR for the high-value guys.

But yes – Zambrano had indeed been a solid starting pitcher prior to this year. The problem is that he’s been a #2-3 starter the past 3-4 years, but is being paid like an ace the past three years. If we were getting #2-3 starter quality for, say, Ted Lilly money, he’d be great. But he’s paid in the category of an ace, and he hasn’t been an ace. At the time, the going rate for supposed aces was what he got. It’s not his fault that his market value was higher than his actual value (given that he’s gotten worse during the contract).

I disagree with the assessment that the yanking him around has caused his terrible season. He was having an up-and-down season, which led to the yanking around. I don’t think the yanking around has helped, but I don’t think it was the sole cause.

by SouthernCub on Aug 10, 2010 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's had exactly 2 bad starts this season

opening day against the Braves (8 runs in 1.1 inning) and against the WSox (4 runs in 1 inning).

His other starts:

at Reds (3 runs in 7 innings)
vs Brewers (3 runs in 5 innings)
at Mets (2 runs in 6 innings)
at Astros (3 runs in 4.1 innings)
at Brewers (3 runs in 5 innings)
vs A’s (2 runs in 6 innings)
at Angels (1 run in 7 innings)
at Giants (2 runs in 5 innings)

Nothing terrible. The worst starts among those were two 3run/5 inning outings against the Brewers and a 3 run/4.1 inning outing versus the Astros. 2 of those 3 starts were right after his first bullpen > starter fiasco when BigZ was on a short pitch count.

All of the starting pitchers have had at least 2 terrible outings, Silva, Wells, Lilly, and Demp.

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

7 innings twice

for a man that gets paid like a No 1 starter, that is mediocre.

by Grockcubs on Aug 10, 2010 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

ok

so why are you blaming him for his contract?

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Get your dateline on there, Al

I want the world to know you watched Bill Walton and Mickey Hart play “TMOTTBG” on kazoos.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 10, 2010 11:51 AM CDT reply actions  

LOL

That was awful

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Worse than Ozzie Osbourne and all the other clowns the Cubs run through their booth during the stretch?

The Giants were honoring Jerry Garcia on the 15th anniversary of his death. The kazoos may have been an unfortunate choice but it seems ironic that a Cubs fan would complain about another team’s 7th inning stretch. The Cubs have made an absolute mockery of the tradition.

by Acapulco Taco Pie on Aug 10, 2010 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

after watching the hundredth trainwreck on Friday in Wrigley

i just couldn’t watch anymore for a while .. by far, this was the worse time I’d ever had in the Friendly Confines ..

Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..

coda

ELO, 1975

by cubnational on Aug 10, 2010 1:22 PM CDT reply actions  

Do you mean Des Moines City Manager Rick Clark??!?

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Aug 10, 2010 1:26 PM CDT reply actions  

What we can ALL

agree on, is that:

A. The Cubs do NOT have a MLB “Ace”

B. The Cubs MUST HAVE an “Ace” pitcher to compete with the “Big Boys”.

by The E-Man on Aug 10, 2010 1:58 PM CDT reply actions  

OK but also

The Cubs do NOT have leadoff hitter
The Cubs MUST HAVE a leadoff hitter to compete with the “big boys”
You can add few more like power hitting 1B, decent bench etc.

I don’t get the obsession with an “ace” when there so many holes and “Ace” apparently applies to exactly one available player. How bout the Cubs get a team that hit, run, field and also pitch on the 4 days the “ace” is not before they spend what little they have on said “ace”.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pitching is KING!

j/k

It's 106 miles to Chicago...

by BDR529 on Aug 10, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh - and

C. There is no said “ACE” that we know of, in the AAA, AA, A affiliates at this time.

by The E-Man on Aug 10, 2010 2:00 PM CDT reply actions  

There isn't a big bat anywhere in the system either

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

However, I believe that may be easier to find in today’s world than an elite Ace.

by The E-Man on Aug 10, 2010 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yet people proclaim our farm system as top 10 in caliber!

Yet there is no potential ace or big bat in the entire system!

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, to be fair

there truly is a better collection of young players than I can remember in a long time. Until recently, Colvin had better numbers than Justin Heyward of the Braves. Of course, he’s sure in a hole recently – but still a Young Dude.

by The E-Man on Aug 10, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

name five teams that have one potential one in their farm system

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Aroldis Chapman,

Strassbourg (just called up over the last 4 weeks), there are several others.

I only need three more…

by The E-Man on Aug 10, 2010 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Strassbourg

i cant tell if this is sarcasm

by jesus christos on Aug 10, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

So far Chapman has done little to nothing

to live to his expectations or contract.

"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry

by Doggie Stalker on Aug 10, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

apparently he is related to

Sandbourg

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

its

derek leigh

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 11, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tampa Bay, Cincy, Colo, Atlanta, & Boston

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

can you name them for me

I’d like to look these guys up. To see if they are good rookie pitchers or ace material. B/c the comment was Cubs don’t have any aces.

This years Cubs suck all the way around. Soto was one of the few bright spots. But to say the minors have players that aren’t good. I’d like to see what other teams farm systems are doing.

We can judge this years Cubs, but I’m not ready to judge the minor league system of the Cubs.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Aroldis Chapman
Jeremy Hellickson
Casey Kelley
Kyle Drabek
Julio Teheran

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Chapman won't be an "elite ace" in my opinion.

The guy can’t find his control to save his life. Last time I checked he was walking over 5 per 9 innings. He’s got decent stuff, but it’s not “ace” material.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hellickson has just been called up...

…due to injuries, so you’lll get to see him soon.

It's 106 miles to Chicago...

by BDR529 on Aug 10, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

If there is a knock of the Tim Wilkens systems over the years, its that

He loves tools and athletes.

Sure you can draft 50 SS’s a year and move them all over the diamond.

Unfortunately they all still hit like SS’s. This would have been a perfect year to draft some big bats.

We went with a 5’7 pitcher from Division 2 instead.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's why Wilken is a good fit for the Cubs

Jim Hendry also loves toolsy athletes.

I'll go to my grave believing Armando Galarraga tossed the 21st perfect game in MLB history.

by EalyEagle on Aug 10, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I assume you are referring to Hayden Simpson

He’s 6’ tall not 5’7"

And he has an above average fastball and 2 average – above average secondary pitches (curve and changeup) that project to be above average pitches in the future.

His scouting report is better than Cashner who has a + fastball, average slider, and terrible changeup

by magicblue on Aug 10, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pitching has largely been a good thing this year...

Nothing horrifically wrong with this rotation.

The problem has and will always be, long term contracts and a farm system that’s 2-3 years behind our team needs.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Aug 10, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

You have been watching the same games?

After Lilly and Dempster, Wells has turned into a brutal pitcher. Silva has turned back into a pumpkin, Diamond was appropriately released by the Rangers, Gorzo a good #5. Z has been…Z.

That leaves two pitchers that would be #4’s on the Phillies.

How “horrifically” did you mean exactly?

by The E-Man on Aug 10, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly! No #1 or #2 starter on the roster and none coming

the staff will be in shambles next year without a big money addition.

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

then you will next year complain about the payroll

and how the Cubs waste their money right?

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

IF they waste their money on a bum, of course! Who wouldn't?

They can spend their money smartly and get us a #1, is that something too impossible?

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

You do realize the kind of contract he will be looking for

long term deal. That pitchers with long term deals can be a problem as they start getting older. Ace is lots of $$$. If that was the Cubs only problem I’d say sure. But this team needs more than just an ace.

Impossible no? But if it was so possible more teams would be doing it.

''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly

by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 10, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, then we better draft one then

Preferably not a 5’ 7" Div II guy!

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Because being 5'7 means he can't be an ace?

Lincecum would like a word with you. And who cares if he was division 2, let’s see how the kid pitches before you crucify him.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Put 'em in Coach...They're ready to play...today
Welington Castillo will replace Geo, and Micah Hoffpauir fills in for D-Lee.

Are they in SF yet? It would be a good test for them tonight against Tim “The Freak” Lincecum.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE…NO more Koyie Hill. Enough already!!!!

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 2:22 PM CDT reply actions  

WAIT!

Hill has had TWO SINGLES in the last two games.

Won’t the team miss his bat?

by The E-Man on Aug 10, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Should be kinda interesting to see Castillo.

Too bad our first call up to sub for Lee is the Hoff.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

He is getting to the end of

the MiLB line. Either needs to be used, traded, or cut. I think he’s out of options after this one.

by The E-Man on Aug 10, 2010 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hope he starts tonight.

But I bet Tramm will channel Lou and start Hill. Sigh.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

I bet Lincecum is praying that the call-ups get to SF by game time so he doesn't have to face Hill.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

He has an option next year

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hopefully...

When D. Lee and Geo get back, they just DFA/Release Nady and Hill and let Hoff and Wellington stay on board the rest of the year.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why?

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

We're talking about the same guy, right? Xavier Nady? #22?

The guy who 2 hops the cutoff guy from right field and can’t throw it to third base from first and has the .643 OPS? That Nady? Tall guy…dark hair.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep...and neither will be here next year anyway.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tommy John surgery.

I didn’t say he was having a good year, did I? He’s had good years in the past and was worth taking a gamble on.

Hoffpauir will never be a productive major league player. Nady was. End of story.

by bdlugz on Aug 10, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

End of story on Nady, too. He's washed up. Damaged. DH at best.

It’s not like we’re playing for a shot at the playoffs here. Hoff is WAY better to finish off the year with. He still might have some value in trade talks this winter.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know, I think the jury is still out on that.

The Cubs seriously erred signing Nady. He had no role on this team other than to take up playing time and money.

But I could see him catching on somewhere next year and being a decent No. 6 hitter/left fielder.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

2 TJ surgeries,IIRC? There's nothing left in that arm. A DH probably for the rest of his career.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe...

but, I see NO value for a N.L. team to sign him. At least in the A.L. he can DH and play an inning or 2 in the field. He doesn’t have that option in the N.L.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wellington's nickname should be

BEEF

get it? Beef Wellington?

The 2010 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp ruled!!!!

by VegasCubFan on Aug 10, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ummm...he sounds...wealthy.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

To compete next year Dunn needs to be the #1 target IMHO

A good backup plan would be signing a Victor Martinez and Mike Lowell combo.

Vic Martinez can play 1st for 1200ish games, and be the backup catcher and pick up 25-30 starts.

Lowell picks up 40 starts at 1st, 10-15 at 3rd. (50-65 starts)

Then instead of rostering a total dud like Koyie Hill. You can actually put an MLB ballplayer in his roster spot.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 2:31 PM CDT reply actions  

Berkman would be plan C

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed on the "ick"

The Dunn thing definitely, tho.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

ick to the backup plan

because it involves lowell - instead you use a cheap Castillo as your backup catcher Martinez as full time 1b to a 3 year deal

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

The benefit of Lowell

Is that it gives you Aramis insurance.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

sortof

If by “insurance” a guy who is either equally, or even more prone to injury at this point in his career

by HuskerCorner on Aug 10, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Our current insurance is Mike Fontenot and Marquez Smith

Getting a better alternative isn’t the worst idea.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

we have insurance with

DeWitt – Barney can then play 2nd…not ideal but a helluva lot cheaper

I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119

by hansman1982 on Aug 10, 2010 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Al...you missed it? Ugh...you coulda been a contender!! You had a shot at immortality with this headline:

“Walkin’ By The Dock Of The Bay”…Otis Redding classic

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 3:47 PM CDT reply actions  

Damn!

Next time you guys get ideas like this, email ’em to me!

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well played, sir.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rumor has it, Joe Madden turned over the buffet table last nite after their pathetic performance

That’s something that’s been sorely lacking in the Cubs’ locker room for many years!!

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 3:49 PM CDT reply actions  

We have talent that underperforms

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

We also have a lack of talent in several key areas. And I don’t know if rage would make our true talent perform better.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe not, but it's better than "what do you want me to do?"

"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"

by Itchy on Aug 10, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think it matters now.

I’m not sure it would have mattered in April. This team was doomed when Aramis and DLee lost the ability to be good baseball players, and when the team left camp with a bullpen that largely looked like the relief staff at West Tenn.

I’m a lot more disappointed with Lou’s lack of caring regarding lineup choices than his lack of throwing tables. But that might just be me.

by elgato on Aug 10, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Man, elgato.

That’s what, like three times today we’ve agreed? I’m expecting an earthquake tonight.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Aug 10, 2010 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Same here.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 10, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Eh?

That’s something that’s been sorely lacking in the Cubs’ locker room for many years!!

A good buffet?

 

We have met the enemy and they are us! ~ Walt Kelly, Pogo, 1971

by Zeke on Aug 10, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

That looks really good.

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Aug 10, 2010 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is that Silva's lunch?

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Think he'd share with us?

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Aug 10, 2010 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not satisfied with this bounty, Z wild-pitched Renteria home with the tying run.

Best line in the whoel recap. I don’t kow why I stayed up to lsiten to Pat and Ron. I knew what was going to happen.

"Whenever one finds himself in the majority, it is time to step back and reflect," Mark Twain.

by WindisBlowingOut! on Aug 10, 2010 3:51 PM CDT reply actions  

FWIW: Go Cubs - Do better tonight !!!

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 5:05 PM CDT reply actions  

Yeah...let's shock the world and beat up Timmy tonight.

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lassie won't like that...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Aug 10, 2010 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's a mommie's boy...take him down!!!

Ron Santo - 8,143 ABs, .277 BA; 342 HR; 1331 RBI = NO Hall of Fame?

Brooks Robinson - 10,654 ABs, .267 BA; 268 HR; 1357 RBI = Hall of Fame.

Any more questions ?

by Easy Ed on Aug 10, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lassie, you're doing it wrong?

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Aug 10, 2010 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

And Timmahhh!!!!!!!

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Aug 10, 2010 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

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Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon

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