OTish - "Jordan Rides the Bus"
by Worf on Aug 25, 2010 12:10 PM CDT
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I say OTish because this was a baseball documentary.
I really enjoyed this documentary last night. It was part of the "30 for 30" series on ESPN that is kicking ass and taking names. Ron Shelton, who directed "Bull Durham," "Tin Cup," "White Men Can't Jump" and other sports movies, directed.
He clearly is a Jordan fan and takes apart some of the conventional wisdom that Jordan's sojourn to baseball was a failure. He pointed out that although Jordan hit .202 in AA, he hit over .250 in the Arizona Fall League, which is generally a top-prospect league. He led the team in RBIs and stolen bases and had seven game-winning hits.
Shelton goes a little too far, saying he is sure Jordan would have made the major leagues. I tend to think that Jordan was on the wrong end of the curve. I think his work ethic and athleticism would have led him to keep improving, but I think his body would have eventually started betraying him.
In other words, had he started at age 21, or even 25, he might have done it. But he just didn't have time to completely convert his body and mind before his body couldn't do it.
But I think that if he had chosen baseball as a sport, he'd have made it.
Other thoughts:
* Shelton attempts to debunk the whole "It was a suspension for gambling" thing. He points out that David Stern basically begged him not to leave. I'd also add that Jordan certainly didn't change his behavior after he came back.
* I was stunned that I had forgot the media -- irresponsibly in my opinion -- attempted to connect James Jordan's death to Jordan's gambling. Can you imagine if this had happened in 2003 instead of 1993, with blogs and the Internet? Can you imagine it today? Jordan might well have snapped and killed someone.
* Steve Wulf, who wrote the infamous "Bag it, Michael" piece for SI, which lead Jordan to boycott SI for years (hell, he may still be doing it) sort of apologized. Even more damning, he said that he went down to Birmingham again and saw Jordan doing better and tried to write a story basically saying, "You know, this SOB just might do this" and SI refused to run it.
* I remember that this was the first time I realized baseball was made up of a bunch of clannish, insular old farts who pretty much suck when it comes to thinking about new things. Baseball people were soooooo threatened by the idea that Jordan -- only the greatest basketball player ever and one of the top 5 athletes EVER -- could maybe be reasonable at the game. I rooted for him all through this time, only to see spitballing cheaters like Don Sutton -- who ripped Jordan at every turn -- get their comeuppance.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Impressed with Jordan's Baseball Ability Considering...
he hadn’t played baseball since high school. The majority of players that make it to the pros don’t get as far as AA. Those AA players were a lot younger than Jordan. I believe Jordan was around 31 or 32 at the time. Those other AA guys didn’t take a 13-year break from baseball like MJ did. Jordan got better as that season went along. My guess is Jordan would not have made it to the majors. Based on merit, I don’t think he would have made it to AAA. Though, the AAA team for the White Sox could have used the publicity back in the mid-1990’s. I think it was Vancouver back then.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I take the position
that if it was possible for him to make it to the majors, he would have. He would have done absolutely everything necessary.
I’m just not sure it was actually possible given the layoff and the good athletic years he had left.
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. -- Albert Einstein
+1
Let’s say he had played baseball and not basketball at UNC, which has a good baseball program, I believe he could have been good enough to have been drafted. With MJ’s work ethic, I believe he could have made himself into a major leaguer. Jordan just got into pro baseball about 10 years too late.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
That was always my thought.
And really, from everything I’ve heard from Jordan in other documentaries and movies, he was satisfied he gave it his all. I’m gonna watch this sometime, but I can’t see Jordan making it because he was tired of failing when he quit. He knew it wasn’t working. Might have indeed if he had the passion for it when he went to the Bulls instead. Thank god for me he chose basketball.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 25, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I watched it and loved it
I totally forgot what a circus it was surrounding his retirement and subsequent foray into baseball. I agree if he was younger, he would have had a good shot at the show.
Don’t forget that MJ also tried to become a professional golfer and that never got off the ground. Could he whip my butt on the links, sure, but I think he thought that it would be easier. Athleticism in basketball and baseball don’t really carry over to golf.
Golf is almost all pure technique whereas the other sports are more action/reaction skills.To be sure, there is a lot of technique when it comes to hitting a baseball and turning the pivot on a DP, but trying to hit a golf ball, AND keep it in play and the nuances of the short game are much different than hitting free throws, etc. I also give you that hitting said FT’s with 16,000 screaming fans is not a can of corn, either.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Very good documentary
I was impressed to see MJ’s improvement just in the videos of him in the batters box. The videos of him early on were kind of a joke. He looked wobbly and out of place in the batters box. Toward the end he looked confident and looked like a major leaguer.
I wish I was old enough to remember this completely… I was born in ’88. But I do remember my whole family going crazy when he walked away.
And on a side note, in the interview, didn’t reinsdorf make the comment about MJ making it to the bigs if it wasn’t for the strike?
"It's hard to win 97 games, it's hard to win the division. Our attitude is if you get in every year, you get in most of the time, sooner or later you are going to knock that door down." -- Jim Hendry
At the beginning of the 1995 season
the owners seriously considered using replacement players. They actually had workouts.
(There is supposedly a great story about Pinella literally knocking over the post-game buffet because the guys that showed up were fat and out-of-shape and were threatening to devour the entire clubhouse)
Minor leaguers were going to be asked to play the games and Jordan would have had to cross the picket line and he refused.
Turns out that a couple of teams refused to hire the replacements — it is illegal to use scabs in Ontario, so Toronto wasn’t going to do it and Peter Angelos was philosophically opposed to it, so Baltimore wasn’t going to.
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. -- Albert Einstein
Angelos was opposed because Ripken's streak would have ended
if he was on strike and the Orioles played with scabs. Cal was about 90 games shy of Gehrig’s record. Angelos was ostracized by the other owners for refusing to create a replacement team, and faced losing his franchise had replacement games been played and the Orioles were to forfeit every game.
by holy mackeral on Aug 26, 2010 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Angelos
also made his fortune representing labor unions in asbestos cases. That had as much to do with it. It wasn’t just Ripken.
by Josh Timmers on Aug 27, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
The fact that owners were even considering using scabs
and destroying things like Ripken’s streak tells you all you need to know about owners.
"It's all in the game, yo"
you could use that same argument against the players
who were not budging on a salary cap
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Baseball never needed a salary cap
still doesn’t.
It needed owners like Reinsdorf to NOT give Albert Belle $55 million over 5 years after whining about poverty.
"It's all in the game, yo"
Well that's pretty much a chicken/egg argument.
If they needed owners to replace guys like Reinsdorf and Steinbrenner who overpay players and drive the league salaries up past the ability for the other teams to pay, how exactly would that happen? The current owners keep their old boy network to their liking, they will only vote in owners who share their views or can be controlled. A salary cap would be the only way to stop spending to their individual budget rather than a player’s ability. The luxury tax is purely a spin control joke for the Yankees to whine about…has no teeth at all.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 30, 2010 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions
BTW, here is an excellent trivia question that you can use in bar bets
What is the only major league ballpark in which Michael Jordan got a hit?
Answer: Wrigley Field. On April 7, 1994, the Sox played the Cubs in a preseason exhibition at Wrigley. Jordan went 2-for-5 with two RBI.
Bonus question: which Cubs broadcaster did he get a hit off?
Answer: Dave Otto.
You can see video of this game here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's how freaking bad the Cubs were in the early 90s
Almost right after he starts trying to play baseball, he has a .400 day against the Cubs.
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. -- Albert Einstein
I was happy that Jordan got that highlight day at Wrigley.
Particularly as it was an exhibition game. But everything I heard about his effort to get up to speed, he deserved something.
(This was somehow not in the documentary piece?)
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Aug 25, 2010 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Rats.
That was going to be my trivia question.
Not being a Jordan fan, I was glad to be able to boo him in Chicago. Of course, I got mine…
Steve Swisher - 1976 NL All-Star Catcher
by Dan Serafini on Aug 26, 2010 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions
I remember that game.
I also remember him throwing out the first pitch for the Wild Card playoff game in 98.
Rumor was flying at Wrigley he had been seen and was going to be doing this but until he stepped out to walk to the mound even when they started to play the Bulls music I figured it would be Pippen at the most.
Of course what I most remember of that night is not being able to sleep the night before and being dog tired.
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
by puckishcubsfan on Aug 27, 2010 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
my college classes were in the evening and my professor that night was a huge Cubs fan
he gave me the details of the class that night and told me he knew i would not be in class and wished he was with me at the bar watching
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Quality of AA Baseball
I don’t think most people realize how good AA baseball really is. I know for those of you who only see major league baseball that you are spoiled rotten by what you see on the big league level. There are few bad ballplayers in AA. If you can be one of the 2200 best players in pro baseball, you can play. That doesn’t mean you can do spit at AAA or in the majors. I got more than a bit upset when sportswriters would joke about how they could do better than Jordan with the Birmingham Barons. There’s no way those sportswriters could have hit .202 in the Southern League.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Most sportswriters are assclowns
They are fat jock-sniffers who are taking their lifelong frustrations out on players who are richer, more attractive and more talented then they can ever dream of being.
A few of the sportswriters — LeBatard, Simmons, Whitlock and Adande — get it. Most of the rest are more like Mariotti than they want to admit.
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. -- Albert Einstein
Let's not leave Bruce Miles off the "gets it" list
… because he does.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sully
Put Paul Sullivan in the “more like Mariotti than they want to admit” catagory.
That's becoming more frequent
In the age of internet journalism and ESPN, specialized sports blogs. Writers know their fan base and have less real people to be accountable to anyway. Once newspapers and fans calling the office started being obsolete, as well as fans cancelling subscriptions, there is far less reason for the writer to worry about being factual and accurate…and a lot more incentive to write something inflammatory to get readers and hits.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 26, 2010 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions
His tweets are consistantly dripping with sarcasm and he perpetuates all the “cubbie occurance” crap at every turn. You can see right through his glee when things are going bad. Especially when its going bad for Z or one of his other punching bags.
Bartman and the Cubs is on its way to 30 for 30
according to wikipedia:
Steve Bartman: Catching Hell" Alex Gibney October 26, 2010
The relationship between Chicago Cubs fans and Steve Bartman following Game 6 of the 2003 National League Championship Series.
"I think I'm going to a casino in Indiana and play snake eyes. I don't know what else to say, I'll be honest with you."
Jordan
At the convention in 1995 someone asked one of the Cubs people what he thought of Jordan.
he said if he was younger he might have had time to work on things and be a 4th outfielder type in the majors. Never a star but possibly a 4th outfielder type.
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
by puckishcubsfan on Aug 27, 2010 10:08 AM CDT reply actions
If the Cubs thought that
then Jordan probably would have been an All-Star
"It's all in the game, yo"
scouts also saiud Jordan would never be a good defender in the NBA at one time
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
All scoring, only thought of himself. That was the line for the first 4-5 years.
Once he mastered D and his drive into the lane slowed, he learned the fade away jumper. His drive to win no matter what, turn a weakness into an asset…made him the man with the biggest NEED to win of anyone I’ve ever seen. It also makes him usually bad at management. I heard the Bulls’ announcers and others speculate during his last few years playing that he would make a bad coach or even VP because he would have no patience with players not like him (and pretty much no one is of course)…that assessment has looked right.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Aug 30, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
The Jordan of the first three championships
still drove the lane with impunity. It was after he came back that he really invented the fall away.
Many critics like to pretend now that they always believed in Jordan. I have not forgotten.
"It's all in the game, yo"
Jordan
never would have been more than a 4th/5th outfielder. He would have gotten a job because he was Michael Jordan, but there wouldn’t have been any other reason to play him over Lyle Mouton, for example.
I think that the documentary overstated his playing ability. Ask Michael how Ricky Henderson would have done in the NBA. Heck, ask Danny Ainge how easy it is to hit a major league breaking ball. The skill sets are just too different. Maybe if he’d tried to be a relief pitcher, he could have learned two pitches and thrown hard. But hitting a baseball? That takes years to learn. Even for Michael Jordan.
But I do agree that it was good for the game and especially good for the minor leagues. So bravo, Michael.
Re-read what you just wrote
A 32-year-old who hasn’t played since high school and whose body is built for an entirely different sport projected to be a 4th or 5th outfielder.
I think a lot of baseball people were scared to death that he would make it.
"It's all in the game, yo"
Right.
I suspect if Michael Jordan had focused on baseball in HS, and been drafted and developed his baseball skills from age 18 instead of playing basketball, he could have been a very good baseball player. His work ethic and athletic skill were topnotch.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think that if he would have chucked basketball at 22
he would have been. Hell, he might have done it at 25.
"It's all in the game, yo"
Well, that's fine
But 4th or 5th outfielder was his ceiling, not his projection. And he’d get there based as much on his name as anything. Often it’s just a crapshoot who gets those final jobs on the bench—someone got hot at the right time and they get the chance rather than someone else.
Jordan hit .202 with a .289 OBP and a .266 SLG. He did steal 30 bases, but he struck out in almost 1/4 of his ABs. It’s only because of his incredible athleticism and his incredible competitive drive that he had a chance at all. You give a great athlete another chance to learn to hit, but of course, Jordan had to be treated differently anyway. 90% of guys who put up a line like that in AA would get cut.
He would have made the majors, most likely, for his box office appeal and not his playing ability. That happens. Look at Danny Ainge’s major league career. He wasn’t a big name at that point, but he was in the majors because the Blue Jays were hoping he’d give up basketball and that he might be something in three or four seasons. Jordan didn’t have 3 for 4 seasons, probably. But baseball skills deteriorate more slowly than skills in other sports.
by Josh Timmers on Aug 27, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Terry Francona
There were some great interviews in that documentary. I’ll remember two pices of information from Terry Francona:
1. It take 1200 ABs – he might have said PAs – to make it to MLB.
2. AA is where you best prospects are. The guys who are most likely to make it in MLB at that time.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
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