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The Inevitability of Adam Dunn: A Cautionary Tale

 

 

Hey, Cub Fans. This is my first post here (just joined) and I wanted to further talk about a pretty controversial topic. I used to write a very sabermetric based baseball blog, so I thought I’d write an article with some of that mixed in. This seemed like a pretty interesting study or case. It involves two players: Adam Dunn and Tom Brunansky.

 

 

Star-divide

Let me start off by saying this: Adam Dunn is a really good offensive player. There is no doubt about that part. He is money in the bank for wOBA’s of over .350 and hitting forty home runs. Over the past few weeks it seems like there is a pretty strong chance that Adam Dunn will become a Chicago Cub next year. I’m not opposed to this, but I'm very worried about it.

 

 

Adam Dunn has what Bill James coined as  "old player skills". These players tend to age faster and their production can fall off at any moment. These "old player skills" usually contain five traits:

 

 

 

 

1.Bad Body (overweight)

2.Power

3.Good walk rate

4. High strikeout rate

5.Over 30

 

 

The thing that scares me is that Adam Dunn fits all of that criteria.  Bill James in his abstract points it out better:

 

  • For a pitcher, there is virtually no relationship between outstanding performance as a rookie and eventually attaining star status.

     

     

  • In trying to figure out how much a player will develop, probably the one most important factor to consider, other than the player's ability, is his age.

     

     

  • Most major league players reach the majors at age 22 or later. The great majority of major stars reach the majors at age 22 or earlier.

     

    Furthermore, as a player ages. . .

     

  • . . .his skills undergo certain predictable changes. All players lose speed as they age; thus, speed-related skills are young player's skills.

     

     

  • . . .power increases as a percentage of value, not in every case but in most. Thus, power is an old player's skill.

     

     

  • . . .he will tend in most cases to draw more walks. Thus, drawing walks is an old player's skill.

     

     

  • . . .his batting average will almost always decrease. Thus, hitting for average is a young player's skill.

     

     

  • . . .he tends to drive in more runs and score fewer. Thus, runs scored are a young player's skill, and RBI are an old player's skill.

     

    As a result, "the further along in this progression the player is (regardless of age), the closer he is to the end of his career (or, conversely, the earlier he is in this progression, the longer he can be expected to play)."

    Many players, perhaps most players, are driven out of the major leagues indirectly because they lose their speed. If you can create seven runs a game if doesn't matter how fast you are; you can play first base or DH. But as a player loses speed as he ages, he loses the ability to play the positions (center field, shortstop, second base) at which offensive ability is scarce, and thus loses the ability to stay in the majors without creating seven runs a game.

  •  

     

     

    Link

     

     

     

    When I was thinking of a player I should compare Dunn with, which is harder than you think, a couple names came to mind: Richie Sexson, Mo Vaughn, and Tom Brunansky. Out of that list Brunansky seemed like the most comparable. 

     

    Brunansky was a power hitting right fielder (usually). He played for several teams including the Red Sox. Brunansky always had the power. He usually always had over 20 home runs. But, did he have the dreaded "old player skills?"

     

    Let’s go throught the "old player skills list. Here's a quick look:


                      Tom Brunansky's Old Player Skills
    Age Walks Strikeouts Home Runs
    28 59 107 20
    29 66 115 16
    30 49 72 16
    31 66 96 15
    32 25 59 6
    33 24 57 10

     

    Brunansky had the dreaded "old player skills." He struck out a lot, he hit home runs, and he walked a fair amount of times.

    Now, the strikeouts are down because Burnansky couldn't stay on the field, injuries and badness limited his playing time. But this gives you a quick look at Brunansky's skills. Now, the home run column doesn't really tell the story. Prior to his age 28 season here was Brunansky's home run totals:

     

    Brunansky Home Run Totals


    Age Home Runs
    21 20
    22 28
    23 32
    24 27
    25 23
    26 32
    27 23

     

    As you can see Tom was a prodigious home run hitter. Every year he  was putting up 20 plus home runs until the age 29 season. And that's where the "old players skills"  kicked in. We all age, some fast, some slow, some gracefully. But one thing distinguishes baseball players, and that's their skill set. Every player has different skill set. Some are fast, some are slow, some are high average, some are low on base. But as I've mention before the skill set that ages less gracefully is the High Walk/High Home Run type players. It's been proven that these types of players age less gracefully. Adam Dunn is not exactly like Tom Brunansky, but he's very similar from a skill set standpoint.

     

    Dunn has what we described earlier as "old player skills." Everyone knows Adam Dunn's prodigious power. But all we can do in baseball is take an educated guess based on past performance. 

     

    I'm not even going to give you the stats here. We know Adam Dunn will strike out a lot. When I was reading this same blog earlier I saw a lot of you guys saying that. But you just can't deny Adam Dunn's power or patience. Right now Adam Dunn has a .291 ISO. That's the highest ISO since 2005  and that was in an extreme hitter friendly ballpark. The D.C. park is more of a fair park. That's amazing to produce your highest ISO in five years.

     

     

     

     

    If you go to one of my favorite sites (Fangraphs), they let you display players side by side, so I can show you a Adam Dunn and Tom Brunansky comparison . Now we know both are very good home run hitters. As evidenced by their ISO's.


     

    Dunn is only getting better as the years go on. I. So, we know both are pretty good power hitters, there's nothing to worry about, right? Wrong. 

     

     

     

    Here is when the risk of decline sets in.

    This graph illustrates  Adam Dunn and Tom Brunansky's Walk rate (by age, not year)

     

    1001589_319_of_cseason_full_3_20100829_medium

    via www.fangraphs.com

     

    Dunn has always been more prone to walking than Brunansky, but both have been abouve average for almost all of their respective careers. But the huge decline in Dunn's walk rate tells me two things: 

    1.  He's changed his approach

    2.  He's starting to decline

     

    I'm more inclined to believe number two. I'm trying to be objective; and almost a ten point drop in walk rate scares me. But also it could show Dunn has tried to be more aggressive at the plate. I'm not sure I agree with him, but hey, anything can work.

     

    The next and last illustration I'll bore you with is the K/BB. I think K to walk ratio will give a better idea of a hitter. 

     

    1001589_319_of_cseason_full_5_20100829_medium

    via www.fangraphs.com

     

    This is the big one. This is the one reason why I'm wary of signing the Big Donkey. That K/BB has been declining for almost three years now. I really see no reason why this will continue or improve. This is the thing with the Donkey; what if that big body breaks down, what if it can't hit for power anymore. What if Pitchers realize his power is off and start attacking him more. Those are my concerns. Think about it from a pitcher standpoint (this is what like a pitching coach would say)

     

    Alright <insert name of pitcher here>, Dunn really doesn't have the power he once had. If you bust him inside he won't be able to catch up, his bat speed is gone. Even if you miss your spot, since his power's gone, you'll be able to get away with it. Attack him inside.

     

    I can easily see that happening. Yes, right now Adam Dunn is great, but what if he loses just a little bit of bat speed?  With those kinds of skills he won't be able to age gracefully, just like Tom Brunansky. For a team that seems like it's on it's way for another 90 plus loss season in 2011, this doesn't seem like a wise investment. One thing I think people don't realize too is that the first base crop in 2012 is excellent. Why not go after Adrian Gonzalez? Instead of spending money for risky player like Dunn, hey, why not take a chance at Adrain, who has a much better shot at being excellent for years to come. Again, the point of this was not to say Adam Dunn is a bad player, don't sign him, it was to show how much of a risk Jim Hendry would be taking. There's no doubt in my mind Dunn could excel at Wrigley Field. My god, he could hit 50 home runs in that ballpark. But for a team that doesn't seem to be going anywhere why take that risk?

    The thing is: I haven't even brought up his defense. Yes, right now he has a mediocre UZR, but five months of UZR really doesn't tell us anything. Dunn was annually a bad defender, not only with the metrics but the eye test. That even worries me more.

    The thing that also scares me is that you see this all the time. Mo Vaughn, Richie sexson. The examples are endless and this is really bothersome. Of course Adam Dunn could get in great shape and be even better, but it doesn't  seem likely. But the again if Jim Hendry signs Dunn to a 3 year deal, hey, good for him. But that probably won't happen. You just don't find forty home run guys every day. That's just my take on the situation. This is my first post here so hopefully it's not too bad ( I looked at other recommended posts to get a good idea). All thoughts would be appreciated.  Go Cubs.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

    Comment 313 comments  |  7 recs  | 

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    Well done.

    I’m still not terrified if we get Dunn…assuming it’s a < 4 year contract. Remember, some of that “decline” over the past 3 years can also be partly due to the TERRIBLE teams he’s been on. The guy is still OPSing over .900.

    As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

    by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 31, 2010 11:32 AM CDT reply actions  

    Nope...strikes out too much...

    …we need Kila Ka’aihue or let’s keep Nady. No…I got it…let’s re-sign Derrek Lee. Those damn 40 HRs and all those freakin’ RBIs Dunn puts up, be damned. Who needs an OPS of .900? We need someone who can pick up a ground ball and keep Castro from shattering the modern day error record. It’s OK we lose 40 one run games, tho.

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!

    by Easy Ed on Aug 31, 2010 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Ok

    Yeah, who needs defense or a first baseman that won’t decline. Are you that shortsighted? I’m not saying Dunn is a terrible option but it really worries me. There are so many other options out there that aren’t risky, like Konerko.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Konerko? You think a 35 year old Konerko is worth signing BEFORE a 31 year old Dunn?

    Really? That was just you jokin’ with me, wasn’t it? Good one. And if Konerko doesn’t wanna sign, then there’s always Lance Berkman?
    This crystal ball everyone is looking into, that says Adam Dunn will be worthless by his 33rd birthday, is amazing. I hope they use it when they’re re-evaluating the young arms in the bullpen. Pujols ain’t EVER coming here. Fielder is too fat and too expensive for what he’s asking. A-Gon will either stay in SD or be given a blank check by the Red Sox. Dunn is not only a good pick-up…it’s the ONLY solution for 1B. Is he gonna win a gold glove? No. Is Castro gonna win a gold glove? No, but, that will that be Dunn’s fault then, right? I don’t get it. This team has to at least make an effort to contend.

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!

    by Easy Ed on Aug 31, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

    No, I'm not saying that at all

    Did you read my post? I said of course Adam Dunn could work out. But on countless times players with those types of skills decline faster. Yes, Adam Dunn could hit 40 home runs and be great, or he could fall off a cliff. We’re not close to contending. Your dumb if you think this team has any chance next year. Too much of a risk to take. It’s such shortsighted thinking.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

    This crystal ball everyone is looking into, that says Adam Dunn will be worthless by his 33rd birthday, is amazing. I hope they use it when they’re re-evaluating the young arms in the bullpen. Pujols ain’t EVER coming here. Fielder is too fat and too expensive for what he’s asking. A-Gon will either stay in SD or be given a blank check by the Red Sox. Dunn is not only a good pick-up

    So you have a crystal ball and know Dunn won’t decline? You seem like you know Dunn will still be good four years from now. The odds are stacked against him at success here. I’m not saying it’s terrible, I’m saying for a franchise headed for another 90 plus loss season investing in an aging slugger isn’t a good idea. First base is an easy position to fill.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

    You're right. Let's say screw Adam Dunn. This organization hasn't won squat in 102 years...

    and people are AFRAID to take a shot at a proven power hitter, because, he MAY decline in the next 2 or 3 years? He’ll be 31 frickin’ years old, for God’s sake…NOT 40! Seriously? What’s the worst that could happen? 103 years? 104 years? Others want the Cubs to spend 100 million on Cliff Lee for 5 years. That’s crazier than signing Dunn. Look how fast a pitcher can blow an elbow out like Strassburg. You roll the dice. Sometimes it’s a 7…sometimes it’s snake eyes…but you still gotta roll ‘em, don’t ya?

    The assumption that Dunn will be unproductive in 2 or 3 or 4 years is just that…an assumption. You don’t think Ryan Howard will decline in a couple years? Same age as Dunn. A team takes chances. They live and die by them. It’s the name of the game.

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!

    by Easy Ed on Aug 31, 2010 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Ryan Howard will be one of the worst contracts in the history of the game. Again, YOUR NOT GOING TO COMPETE NEXT YEAR. You don’t take risks when your going to rebuild a franchise. You just don’t do that. Soriano was a proven hitter AT THE SAME AGE AS DUNN. Look what happened. This isn’t the time. Your thinking is so shortsighted.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

    I agree, you have to take risks, but this isn’t the time. I just heard Tim Kurkjian say on ESPN that a Cubs official told him the Cubs were headed for another 90 plus loss season, it isn’t looking good. The premise of lets through money at the best available player because we have a hole doesn’t work. It hasn’t worked. That’s how the Soriano and Zambrano contracts happened. It’s such shortsighted thinking.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Rebuilding a franchise

    Nor do you select a smallish pitcher that has faced less than top competition in the first round of the amateur player draft…if you’re rebuilding a franchise as you suggest. Just saying.

    "When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder

    by krummy12 on Sep 1, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

    yeah i never said the Cubs were good at rebuilding.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 1, 2010 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

    rec'd

    Chronologically inept since 2060
    "I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
    Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
    Wrigster A: Theriot

    by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 1, 2010 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The assumption that Dunn will be unproductive in 2 or 3 or 4 years is just that…an assumption. You don’t think Ryan Howard will decline in a couple years?

    So….your assuming he will remain productive. He has old player skills, his walk rate is declining, he can’t play defense, we aren’t going to compete. Add all those together and that makes me worried.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

    You’re right. Let’s say screw Adam Dunn. This organization hasn’t won squat in 102 years…

    Yes, lets screw the future because of some thing—that happened when basically everybody here wasn’t alive—that happened 100 years ago dictate what we do in the preset. I wouldn’t want you running my franchise.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Nor you running mine...

    my point on the 102 year thing is this…this team hasn’t won JACK since before the Titanic sank and most people here are worried about signing a guy who’ll be an impact player NOW. Let’s win one of these World Series things FIRST…then we can worry about a dynasty.

    Yes, lets screw the future because of some thing—that happened when basically everybody here wasn’t alive

    You FINALLY nailed it. Way to go. NOBODY was alive back then. Ding-ding-ding. Don’t ya think it’s time? Really? Or are you just happy with watching baseball no matter what the Cubs are like? 102 years. Say it over and over and over. Laughable losers. We need to win ONE and you’re worried about what happens after?

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
    Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.

    by Easy Ed on Sep 1, 2010 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

    We need win one? How the hell are we going to win the World Series by signing adam dunn and not building for the future? How is Adam Dunn going to get you a world series. Your thinking like JIm Hendry. The team isn’t close to competing and by signing another aging slugger won’t help. It’s liked you haven’t watched our team this year.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 1, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Building for the future? Are you kidding me?

    That’s been the motto of this organization for 102 years. This is BASEBALL!!!!!!!!!!!! Not the NF frickin’ L!!!. 31 is NOT an old player. Every player is an “aging” player, for crying out loud. That’s absurd thinking. Really?
    How the hell you gonna win a world series NOT signing free agents? Are you following the same organization I am? Do you really, REALLY think Castro and Colvin are gonna take us to the promise land ALONE?
    I know what you’re trying to say. This team isn’t gonna win the championship in the near future….BUT, they gotta be competitive at least or absolutely NOBODY will want to come here…EVER! We’ll be the Pirates of the midwest.
    So, by doing it your way, you want to piss another 3 years away in HOPES that somebody in the organization is going to be that ONE slugger we haven’t had since Sosa? Good luck with that. Got a news flash for ya…we ain’t gettin’ Pujols or Gonzalez or (thank God) Fielder, if that’s what you’re hopin’ for. That’s a fact. You either sign Dunn or limp away with some clown who hits .240 with 15 HRs and 55 RBIs, cuz, that’s what’s left.
     I got one word for you on FAs…Y A N K E E S ! If Ricketts wants to win then follow their lead. If not, then they need to do it your way where a .500 season is a season to plan a parade after.

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
    Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.

    by Easy Ed on Sep 1, 2010 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

    that’s been the motto of this organization for 102 years. This is BASEBALL!!!!!!!!!!!! Not the NF frickin’ L!!!. 31 is NOT an old player. Every player is an "aging" player, for crying out loud. That’s absurd thinking. Really?

    Now your just putting words in my mouth. 31 is aging, for a baseball player. Doesn’t mean he’s going to become useless. Did you read the post? I clearly said players with Dunn’s skill set decline faster.

    I also love how you laugh at building for the future. So what? Let’s throw a bunch of money at free agents over 30? That’s worked, hasn’t it? The only way for this team to contend again is to build from within. Once you feel like you have a team, yeah, of course go out and sign free agents. Your dumb if you think building for the future its wrong. This 102 year thing is crazy. It has nothing to do at all with the current club. Nothing. It’s such shortsighted thinking. It’s liked you haven’t watched the last 4 years of Cub baseball.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 1, 2010 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

    anything can happen

    any year. you think over at gaslamp ball last year those padres fans thought they had a chance in hell of competing this year? crazy shit happens in baseball. say the cubs dont compete next year, or even in 2011. by 2012 you’ve got to think they have a chance to compete. say its the last year of dunns contract and they finally have the pieces in place and it all comes together. random ass scenario but still, who is the alternative? dunn will not be expensive, he wasn’t very expensive when he was a younger and more attractive free agent a few years ago and he’s sporting the exact same resume only at an older age.

    who is the alternative? you really want to see hoff out there next year huh. ill give you this, if they can transition colvin to first id say that is the best option. cost is nothing, leave fuk in right.

    clearly fukudome is a better major leaguer with each year he has played. his stats have improved across the board in every category each year and he already has a career high in homers in just 296 ab heading into today. solid .835 ops, plus defense. i think its a mistake not letting this guy develop even more in his fourth year.

    starlin actually makes this season bearable.

    by kylejo on Sep 1, 2010 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Fukudome

    Are you joking?

    Not trying to be a jerk, but I can’t figure out if the Fukudome thing is sarcasm or not…

    by nickler on Sep 2, 2010 3:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

    ummm

    33 year old players don’t “develop even more.”

    It is possible that Jaramillo has helped Dome in his approach or that Dome has made some adjustments, but it is just as likely that he is having a statistically outlier season or is just being used properly this year.

    He ain’t gonna develop any more, though. The skill set is on its way down, not up.

    That said, I am fine with the Cubs keeping him around for another year.

    "Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray

    by Archie on Sep 2, 2010 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Of course anything can happen. IT’S NOT LIKELY. Instead of building my plans on The 5% chance that the Cubs actually have I would rather build towards the 95% chance the Cubs don’t make the playoffs. It’s like playing BlackJack when you have a 19. Yes, you could go for all the money while banking on the 8% chance you have of 21, or you could do the logical thing. Anything can happen, but building a team and expecting luck or randomness to happen is a bad way to build a franchise.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 2, 2010 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

    You're WAY wrong....
    It’s liked you haven’t watched the last 4 years of Cub baseball.

    I’ve been watching this team build for the future since the late 60’s. That’s over 40 years, ya know? Building and building and building and…well, I think you get the picture. I think the Egyptian Pyramids took less time to build.

    The organization knows they’re gonna draw their 2.5 – 3 million people a year whether they win or not. They were right there in ‘08…right on the brink and WHAM!!! Let’s blow it ALL up and start over. It’s never frickin’ ending. Now we got Castro and Colvin and everybody is drooling all over themselves. They aren’t gonna win ANYTHING unless you sign a: A) Team leader, B) A Power hitter at 1B. How do you know A-Ram and Soriano won’t have exceptional years next year? And a break-out year for Soto? Wouldn’t a slugger look good in the middle of all that? You’re blowing this team off, where I’m at least campaigning for them to make a realistic effort, with an older bunch, that’s signed for next year anyway. What’s there to lose? Just the same thing we lose every year…another season.

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
    Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.

    by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2010 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

    The Cubs are currently at

    2.6 million in attendance with 12 home dates left. The attendance has fallen off the map in the last few weeks, but they probably will draw another 200-300k and finish with 2.9 mm or so.

    Next year, though? If anything like this continues, they might not get to the 2.5 mark. Might be closer to 2.2. That should get someone’s attention.

    "Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray

    by Archie on Sep 2, 2010 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

    I’ve been watching this team build for the future since the late 60’s. That’s over 40 years, ya know? Building and building and building and…well, I think you get the picture. I think the Egyptian Pyramids took less time to build.

    So your just avoiding what I was saying. Good job. Of course “you watched” Cubs baseball, but that doesn’t mean you actually understood what happened.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 2, 2010 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

    how can you be so sure Castro will never win a gold glove?

    HE’S 20. He has the potintial the be a great SS, and if you compare his rookie season with guys like Ozzie Smith and Derrek Jeter Castro is actually better

    by wfree0104 on Aug 31, 2010 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

    cause he makes lots of errors!!/sarcasm

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Alternatives to Dunn

    Why is dunn considered the best 1b available next year? Victor martinez offers similar production, with the added benefit of positional flexibility. Berkman will also be out there, and I doubt the yankees will offer arb, so he won’t cost picks like dunn or victor. They have too many aging hitters (posada, a-rod,) to tie up dh permanently with berkman. I’d rather have a big puma than a big donkey. (Nicknames)

    by neifiisgreat on Sep 1, 2010 9:41 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

    Seriously? Berkman?

    I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue.

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
    Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.

    by Easy Ed on Sep 1, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Thanks for that informative and constructive comment.

    Berkman is a perfectly legitimate option, I don’t see why people are zoned in on Dunn or waiting for one of the big three. There are plenty of other options, hopefully Hendry looks at them. Billy Butler is another. KC has young power prospects pushing him out (Moustakas, Hosmer, and Kila/Gordon to a lesser extent), we could pursue him, a comparatively known quantity vs. some other team’s prospect.

    by neifiisgreat on Sep 1, 2010 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

    OK...yeah, let's get Berkman or Martinez or Butler...

    I would prefer either of them before moving Colvin to 1B.

    I’m backing out of this conversation now. We all have our “picks”. Some of us would prefer to take a shot with Dunn and being somewhat competitive. Some would rather wait 3 or 4 years for the reincarnation of Lou Gehrig to appear in the minor league system somewhere and some just want a “filler” before the 2012 FA class is eligible (which is also a waste of time). I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. If we get a .265/20/70 guy to play 1B next year and NOT sign Dunn, then Ricketts and Hendry are BOTH responsible for another lost opportunity to better this team, instead of keeping its label of “lovable losers”. Either way…I’m a Cubs fan.

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
    Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.

    by Easy Ed on Sep 1, 2010 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

    good call

    on victor. i like that idea a lot.

    starlin actually makes this season bearable.

    by kylejo on Sep 1, 2010 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Platoon with Soto

    Lou seemed to bury Soto on the bench, but he has been one of the more valuable bats for the Cubs this year. Playing Soto and Victor Martinez at C/1B would be a good way to keep both bats in the lineup and fresh. Neither is known as a defensive whiz (although I remember Soto had a good rep for handling pitchers in 08), but I think they could hold down the fort ok.

    by neifiisgreat on Sep 1, 2010 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I actually like this idea as well

    A 1B/Catcher platoon of VMart and Geo would be great, and VMart could likely be had for less money than Dunn. I was worried about VMart because of his poor defense at Catcher, but he’s improved over the last couple of months. Plus, it would also keep both of them fresh through the season.

    I still really like Dunn because he’s a lefty middle of the order power bat and those are extremely difficult to find with such consistent offensive production as Dunn. And we would have excellent left/right balance from top-bottom of the lineup.

    VMart is definitely a viable option at 1B

    by magicblue on Sep 2, 2010 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The "inevitable" player the Cubs were going to get

    was Marlon Byrd. I liked how that worked out. I remember some posters actually wanted Rick Ankiel and Scott Podsednik(ewww). Some people don’t want Dunn because they think there is a chance the Cubs can get Pujols or Alex Gonzalez. Those won’t happen. I believe the Cards will stop at nothing to keep Albert and the BoSox will pay all the money possible to Gonzalez. Those guys wouldn’t come here anyway. So, let’s get Dunn.

    "A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon

    by Cubbiegoon on Aug 31, 2010 11:35 AM CDT reply actions  

    The 'last' inevitable

    "A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon

    by Cubbiegoon on Aug 31, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

    I mean Adrian Gonzalez not Alex

    jeez I be dumb

    "A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon

    by Cubbiegoon on Aug 31, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Pods

    was actually pretty good this year. I didn’t want him on the Cubs, but I feel like I gotta give credit where it’s due.

    2011 can't get here soon enough.

    by Castro Por Presidente on Aug 31, 2010 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Nice job on this - if it is a bit "spacey."

    I would agree that whether the Cubs should sign Dunn depends on whether they intend to go after one of the Big Three (Pujols-Gonzalenz-Fielder) in 2012. If the team has no intention of ponying up the big money that those guys are going to ask, then signing Dunn to a three-year deal wouldn’t bother me too much.

    And, no, I don’t think the Cubs will have much of a shot at either Pujols or Gonzalez. I still think Fielder is the most gettable of the three. But, again, if he doesn’t want to play ball in Chicago than rolling with Dunn for a few years at first base may turn out OK. The only thing I don’t get is why people seem to think Dunn is going to get some massive, long-term contract when, IIRC, he was one of the last guy’s signed in ‘08/’09 and got only a two-year deal.

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    by daver on Aug 31, 2010 12:00 PM CDT reply actions  

    you must remember

    that we are talking about Jim Hendry here when you say these things:

    The only thing I don’t get is why people seem to think Dunn is going to get some massive, long-term contract when, IIRC, he was one of the last guy’s signed in ‘08/’09 and got only a two-year deal.

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    by hansman1982 on Aug 31, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Call me whacky...

    …but I think Hendry may have learned his lesson about long-term deals and wouldn’t give one to Dunn. Jimbo seems to have reined in that urge as of late, the Byrd and Nady signings being two examples. (There’s the Ricketts Factor to consider as well.) I guess it depends on how desperate he is to put a big name at first base.

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    by daver on Aug 31, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

    ya I agree

    not holding my breath on the contract…perhaps this is ricketts hand at work – “Hey Jimbo, you do what you do with trades, youre good at that, when it comes to contracts lets sit down before you offer anyone anything.” If that is what is going on, that Jimbo does have supervision with his fa signings and has free reign with trades then I am all for him staying on through 2011 to clear out some of these bad contracts.

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    by hansman1982 on Aug 31, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

    He may have more supervision...

    …with the money, but who is going to supervise his decisions on which players and how they fit what the club needs? To me, this is the critical piece that has been missing.

    As long as Hendry is making these calls, I don’t see any reason things will change.

    "I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

    by MPH73 on Aug 31, 2010 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I think last offseason is a good indicator

    Byrd was signed to a reasonable contract while Howry isnt a good one – he is improving and it could be that there is a brain trust (hopefully as good as the one in Scrubs) behind the FA decisions now…the two trades this year have been fantastic, as per usual, so I think things are definately brighter than previously

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    by hansman1982 on Aug 31, 2010 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Byrd was maybe the best signing he’s ever had. 15/3 for a guy that is closing in on a 4 WAR season.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

    ehhh

    Deroick Lei would like to have a word with you

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    by hansman1982 on Aug 31, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

    On a per year/salary basis, yeah, I think Byrd might be better.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I love Derrik(that’s what Phil Rogers calls him) though.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I don't think he learned his lesson at all

    He has no budget room that’s why. I’m sure if he wanted to he would have thrown a bunch of money at chone figgins. He just can’t do that. We all knew in 2006 that this was going to be the core for a couple of years. Your kidding yourself if you didn’t see us ending up as an old, aging, no budget room, kind of team.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I never said...

    …it was surprising the Cubs wound up an aging team with little budget room. But the deals that made it that way occurred several years ago, when Hendry was still building around the Lee-Ramirez-Zambrano core. You can certainly choose to go the cynical route and believe that Jim Hendry hasn’t learned from his mistakes. Maybe you’re right. But I like to think that he’s learned from the Soriano and Fukudome deals in particular, and we probably won’t see those type of contracts again. Ricketts will likely rein him in, too. Naturally, I could be wrong.

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    by daver on Sep 2, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

    I guess

    but…he has no budget room to sign a Soriano type player. Yeah, I guess he could’ve learned, but we’ll see if he’s learned his lesson this winter. He’s got a lot of money to play with. He could do the following;

    1.Spend money on a low cost veteran to flip at the deadline for prospects
    2. Spend a lot of money on the international free agent market
    3. Give out two large deals to above average players
    4.Spend it all on Adam Dunn

    I would have to say either 1 or 2. Considering the state of the franchise it would be wise to do numbers 1 and 2.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 2, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Whacky!

    Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
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    by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 7, 2010 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I too get the feeling

    that Dunn will again be low-balled by most teams this winter. It seems like if Dunn really wants to stay in the NL, then his most likely destination is Chicago (assuming he doesn’t resign, which appears unlikely). I could see a situation where the Cubs could entice him on a shorter deal worth more money, with the carrot being that he can play first base and hit a gazillion homers at Wrigley. AL teams might be willing to go 4 years with him, but he doesn’t seem to want to DH. I would be fairly comfortable with a three year deal with a club option for a fourth. If we’re patient, that might get it done.

    Not saying Dunn is my favorite to fill 1B next year, but a three year deal probably wouldn’t ruin the franchise.

    by Bradsbeard on Aug 31, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Hm, yeah, that's a good point about the NL/AL thing.

    And Dunn’s defense at first base, while not “good,” isn’t bad enough to keep him from a 3-4 WAR this year and probably wouldn’t keep him from being a 3-5 WAR player with the Cubs.

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    by daver on Aug 31, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

    here is what I was thinking with the Cubs

    2 year deal – 3rd year based on performance and a team option for the 4th with a buyout and a 5th year option with no buyout…not even sure if that is possible but that would be a great contract – this way if he is in decline we only have 2 years and if he continues to perform very well/we get the DH in the NL we get his homers for a 4th and possibly 5th year

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    by hansman1982 on Aug 31, 2010 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Adam Dunn

    What a great AL player…

    Just win the next game...!

    by blackhawk24 on Aug 31, 2010 12:29 PM CDT reply actions  

    this

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    by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 31, 2010 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

    great post. thanks for taking the time. I want Dunn. he will hit a lot of homers and I want that.

    by drodd on Aug 31, 2010 12:31 PM CDT reply actions  

    Good post and nice comparison

    but the problem is that there are counter-examples that show that such players can succeed into their mid-30s. You make the comparison to Tom Brunansky, but let me make the comparison to the first baseman the Cubs passed on in 2003, in part because he was aging with old-hitters skills: Jim Thome. Thome, I’d argue, is much closer to Dunn than Brunansky was (I’d say Thome>>Dunn>>Brunansky) and he continued to be a good hitter through 2008.

    I agree that such players are risky, but Thome shows that such players can succeed into their late 30s. Of course I would much rather have Adrian Gonzalez than pretty much any first baseman not named Pujols, but he may not be available. When the choice becomes Adam Dunn or Carlos Pena, then the choice of Dunn becomes much more defensible.

    by Josh Timmers on Aug 31, 2010 12:32 PM CDT reply actions  

    Brunansky really wasn't a first baseman, either.

    He played only 36 games there in his career, 28 of them in one year with the 1992 Red Sox.

    "You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

    by Al Yellon on Aug 31, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

    But isn’t Thome always a high average type of guy. Those players tend to age easier.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 1:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

    He's a bit higher

    than Dunn. More of a .275 hitter than a .255 hitter.

    He was coming off a .300 season the year he was a free agent though.

    by Josh Timmers on Aug 31, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Below is a list of the players most similar to Dunn in performance according to baseball reference

       1. Jay Buhner (912)
       2. Pat Burrell (888)
       3. Richie Sexson (885)
       4. Hank Sauer (881)
       5. Troy Glaus (877)
       6. Bob Allison (875)
       7. Dean Palmer (871)
       8. Gorman Thomas (868)
       9. Cecil Fielder (864)
      10. Danny Tartabull (864)

    A few of those guys had longer productive careers than Brunansky and are more comparable to Dunn

    Overall a good post. If the Cubs can get Dunn on a 3 year contract with a team option for a 4th year ($10million per year), I would do it, but I wouldn’t want the Cubs to guarantee a full 4 years. I would love to get AGon, I just don’t think its going to happen. He might be traded this off-season and the receiving team is going to sign him to an extension.

    Regarding Dunn’s defense: Its worth noting that until 2010, Dunn played vastly more games in the OF than at 1B, and he is most definitely a butcher in the OF. However, this year when playing almost exclusively at 1B, he’s posted a slightly negative UZR. And over his entire career his defense has been much better (or less worse) at 1B. The Cubs don’t need him in the OF, but they have an opening at 1B. I think Dunn has the potential to be a 45-50HR/120 RBI/ 900+ OPS guy at Wrigley Field for the next 3 years while playing slightly below average to average defense at 1B.

    Also, regarding the decline in Dunn’s K:BB ratio between 2008-10, he had a 3 year decline in K:BB between 2002-04. I think 1 more year of data is needed before we can say Dunn is in a noticeable decline.

    Its possible that the Cubs could front-load Dunn’s contract so that his actual salary is closer to his WAR based salary. If the Cubs are paying Dunn $13million in 2011 for 4-5 WAR and only paying Dunn $8million in year 3 of his contract for 2-3 WAR, his actual salary would be in line with his declining WAR based salary.

    Note: in 2010, 1 WAR = approx $4.5-4.7million on the FA market

    I still believe that Adam Dunn is exactly what the Cubs need at 1B in 2011. He’ll be a 4-5 WAR player at 1B for at least the next 2 seasons.

    by magicblue on Aug 31, 2010 1:02 PM CDT reply actions  

    the last sentence

    to me is my concern

    He’ll be a 4-5 WAR player at 1B for at least the next 2 seasons.

    those 2 seasons would align with our “least likely” time to contend over the next 5 years. If we have to commit to Dunn beyond those 2 seasons then we’ll be paying a premium on someone that becomes a bit more difficult to project when we enter the seasons we’re most likely to contend (the seasons that match Castro’s emergence and the end of Soto’s prime)

    I’m ok with Dunn on a 2 year deal, even a third year with a vesting option, but anything beyond 3 years becomes terribly risky in my mind

    I also dont think you can just write-off Dunn’s declining BB Rate by drawing a comparison to 2002-2004. Dunn’s BB Rate has dropped 2x more than it did during that period and his outside swing rates were pretty static during the 2002-2009 periods, this year they’re completely out of whack.

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 31, 2010 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

    You guys really think we could get Dunn on a 2 year deal? I would assume he wants one last deal. And why not wait till 2012 to get a long time first baseman. What I’m saying is that Dunn is too much of a risk for me personally.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 1:21 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

    that's been my argument for a while

    around these parts

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 31, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

    can i jump aboard with you?

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    by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 31, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

    If he signs a 3 year deal

    he could still get another deal after that because he can always move to the AL and DH or maybe the NL will adopt a DH. I think he’d be more open-minded to DHing closer to the end of his career.

    Dunn still has at least 5-6 more years where he’ll be solid.

    by magicblue on Aug 31, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

    and if the NL gets the DH

    in 14 then he will lineup well to be our DH, providing he is still productive

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    by hansman1982 on Aug 31, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

    But what if Hendry strongly believes...

    …that he won’t be successful in a pursuit of either Pujols, Gonzalez or Fielder? Then would you go after Dunn, limiting it to a three-year deal (maybe three with an option)? Or would you throw out all these names and go in a completely different direction?

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    by daver on Aug 31, 2010 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

    This ☝

    Not that I’m always a big fan of conventional wisdom but in this case, CW says Pujols re-ups with the Cardinals and Gonzalez either re-ups with SD or Boston either overwhelms SD with prospects then extends him, or just waits it out and overwhelms him with $. And I’d have to agree with CW.

    So that just leaves Fielder as a big name in 2012. Most likely more productive than Dunn would be but so much more to be worth the extra $$ and years? I don’t think so.

    I know this will be out-of-character for Hendry, but go after Dunn, offer him a fair deal (at most 3 yr with team option) at fair $ and hold to that offer. If Dunn goes elsewhere, so be it. Then Cubs can re-tool & re-evaluate for 2012 and maybe somehow pull off a miracle for Gonzalez.

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    by ballhawk on Aug 31, 2010 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Thank you.

    I’m still waiting for Bad Midget to answer my question.

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    by daver on Sep 2, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

    I'm not a big fan of the "wait til 2012 crop of 1b" argument.

    I honestly have a hard time fathoming St. Louis lets Pujols leave. Adrian Gonzales is the face of the Padres, which doesn’t necessarily mean much, but as they are leading the NL, I don’t see them letting him walk either. That leaves Fat Boy Fielder. I just don’t want him.

    by CubFan90 on Aug 31, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Agreed.

    If the Cubs wait for those guys and can’t sign them…then we’re screwed.

    "A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon

    by Cubbiegoon on Aug 31, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

    screwed

    isn’t missing out on guys

    its investing lots of dollars and years in just “ok” guys

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 31, 2010 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

    If the Cubs don't sign Dunn, Fielder, Gonzalez or Pujols

    They won’t be contenders between now and 2013. I am not sure who is a free agent in 2013, but we better hope there are some elite guys available. The Cubs are likely going to have to overpay somebody along the way. That’s what happens when you totally fail to develop elite talent.

    by JSB on Aug 31, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

    and everyone will piss and moan

    that we didnt get Dunn

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    by hansman1982 on Aug 31, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

    and when Dunn declines

    strikes out for the 170th time, or has another error in the field, the same people will complain about having him

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    by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 31, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

    you dont need FAs all the time

    you simply stockpile talent and then TRADE for the next young guy thats getting too expensive for an organization

    missing out on FAs IS NOT a big deal

    spending big on bad FAs IS a big deal

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 31, 2010 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Well, the small market teams are getting smarter

    The Cubs don’t have one position player currently in the minors that’s a solid bet to be a 4 WAR player. Our MiLB system is slightly above average, it’s not awesome.

    There aren’t that many elite free agents going on the market anymore. Only one or two per year. That means to get one of those guys you likely are going to have to overpay. If you don’t overpay, and you can’t develop elite talent, then you don’t have a contender. I am pretty pessimistic about the future of this franchise right now.

    by JSB on Sep 2, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Did I miss something

    or is no one else considering another option that has been talked about here in the past?

    Move ARam to 1b and sign/develop a 3b (Vitters?)

    That gives you your strong, offensive 3b and I think that Rami is good enough with the glove that he could learn to play at least a passable 3b.

    What am I missing?

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    by Archie on Sep 1, 2010 6:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

    that Aram is lucky

    to play 120 games a year now

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    by hansman1982 on Sep 1, 2010 6:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Would A-Ram move?

    There are no more obvious 3B choices either in the system or in the FA class to move Aramis before next year. Plus, with him approaching free agency himself, I am sure that he would be unhappy with becoming slotted to be the 4th best 1b in next year’s FA class instead of the best 3B.

    Eamus Ursuli!

    by WGNstatic on Sep 1, 2010 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Vitters is no sure thing

    He still is a boom-or-bust type of prospect.

    by JSB on Sep 2, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Exactly

    I don’t want to see the Cubs waiting for the top tier FAs in 2012 and get screwed like the Bulls did this off-season

    by magicblue on Aug 31, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Do you think Albert will have a hour special on ESPN?

    "A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon

    by Cubbiegoon on Aug 31, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Maybe he'll announce it at a Glenn Beck rally?

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    by IowaCubs- on Aug 31, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Ha. Reason 5000 to hate tony la russa

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

    Two years ago...

    …the Nats were wise to sign him for only two years. And its not like the baseball economy has changed much. Plus he’s two years closer to potentially falling off a cliff.

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    by BucknerKongCardenal on Aug 31, 2010 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

    That’s the thing that scares me. All these teams hated the idea of giving Dunn a long term contract, the thing is he wasn’t even thirty. That scares the shit out of me.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 11:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

    What has happened it Hendry’s past that gives you confidence in dealing with free agents…with money to spend.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 2, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

    And you know Dunn wants one last big contract, rightfully so, he 100% deserves one.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 2, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

    As you mentioned above...

    …Jimbo doesn’t have that much money to spend. I’d again cite Marlon Byrd and Xavier Nady as two recent, position-player free agent signings that were reasonable. If he really wants to throw some ridiculously big contract at Dunn, I’d hope the team’s new stat guy would step in and remind Hendry of the points you’ve brought up. And, again, much depends on whether the team tends to seriously pursue one of the Big Three. If that’s the case, Hendry might not be seriously considering Dunn at all.

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    by daver on Sep 3, 2010 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

    yep summed it up pretty good.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 3, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

    LOL, DCF, Didn't we go over this in the other thread last week?

    I know you think the Cubs are going to be able to go out and fill all of their needs before 2012 and get a good look at what prospects can contribute, while the glut of 1B in 2012 will drive their respective prices down. I still don’t think Pujols will leave STL, I don’t want Fielder (at his weight, his decline may have already started given his mediocre performance this season), and AGon is probably going to sign an extension with the team he is traded to.

    There aren’t really any 1B options in 2012 that would be better than Dunn in 2011. Even if we don’t trade for Greinke or sign CLee, adding Dunn is a step in the right direction and one less move that is needed in 2012. I still think the Cubs can contend in 2011, just need 140 games of 2010 post AS break Aramis. No Z to the bullpen nonsense, a thumper like Dunn at 1B, continued improvement from Castro/Colvin/Geo, and no dropoffs from the rest of the roster.

    I’m not a fan of rebuild years as you are advocating. Teams should try and win every year. Baseball is a crazy sport where a team that finished last one year, can finish 1st the next year without making any major moves or upgrades.

    Projections are great, but they have standard deviations for a reason. The Padres and the Cubs are perfect examples. The Padres performed on the positive side of their projection and the Cubs on the negative side of their projection

    by magicblue on Aug 31, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

    But the thing is the Padres have a lot of really young power arms (Latos, gregerson, Adams) Cubs aren’t young, we don’t really have room for improvement while the Padres did have room.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 2:09 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

    I’m not saying I saw the Padres coming, but there was room for more wins. THe Cubs are an old, aging, and bad team.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 2:11 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

    The Cubs pitching is not old...

    The Cubs cut down on some of the old guys and some guys like Nady, are leaving after the season. The Cubs are going to have a good mixture of young and old guys.

    "A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon

    by Cubbiegoon on Aug 31, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Really?

    Cashner, Zambrano, Dempster, Wells, Gorz is a good young rotation? I don’t buy that. We’re younger but not with a bunch of upside. Castro and Cilbin are really the only young players with huge upside.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 2:24 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

    Colvin sorry

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 2:25 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

    You said the Cubs were old and bad.

    Cashner, Z, Demp, Wells, and Gorzo are not old and bad. The rotation isn’t going to scare anybody, but they are something decent to build on. More young guys with talent are on the way. Plus, there are young talented guys in FA.

    "A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon

    by Cubbiegoon on Aug 31, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I don't see that.

    Offensively, Soriano and Aramis are certainly aging. However, while there are not playing to their contract value, they are still good players (when on the field). The rest of the position players include 4 pre-arbitration players, Byrd, and an opening at 1B.

    The bullpen is clearly not old. The rotation has an aging Silva, a productive Dempster, and a huge ? in Z.

    I just don’t get how you can refer to this team as aging.

    Eamus Ursuli!

    by WGNstatic on Sep 1, 2010 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

    the standard deviation and surprise

    is usually tied to youth, not aging clubs.

    If you can provide me an example of an “old team” coming out of nowhere i’d be interested in hearing it.

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 31, 2010 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Well, just for the sake of discussion...

    …how about the 2010 Chicago White Sox?

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    by daver on Aug 31, 2010 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Do you mean a old team that’s going nowhere? Cause the White Sox are bad. Their first two hitters last night were Juan Pierre and Omar Vizquel. I mean they’re pretty bad right now. AJ is terrible. Buehrle is slowing down. They’re not that great of a team. Konerko though has been fantastic. That’s a low cost option I wouldn’t mind exploring.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The White Sox playoff odds are below ten percent right now.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

    If the Sox are bad...

    …the Cubs are absolutely beyond repair.

    It all comes down to winning games, and the Sox have won enough games to at least be in the conversation in a tougher league as well.

    Things are never as good as they may seem nor as bad, and that is one thing that has become more common place in modern professional sports. Teams can go from being contenders to sucking within one year and than do the opposite. Whats important, is building a strong organization so you don’t have the deep valleys like the Cubs do, and when you have the highest payroll in your league, you shouldn’t have deep valleys if the organization was strong.

    "I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

    by MPH73 on Aug 31, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

    And it all starts with the farm system. Look at the Red Sox depth. They’re contending and are close to twenty over with basically their whole starting lineup going down. That’s how a franchise is supposed to be run. Look at the Cubs depth. The Red Sox have Ryan Kaylish, we have Micha Hoffnopauir. It all comes down to your system. They have Bill Hall, we Darwin freaking Barney. Jim Hendry really has no idea how to build a bench or for that matter depth.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Well...

    …he ran the farm from 94 till 2002 and oversaw the driest period of position player development in I don’t know how many years. He failed at that and than was promoted to GM.

    Promoting a sound philosophy throughout the system, having the discipline to follow it, and knowing how to put a balanced roster together are not qualities Jim Hendry has had, or ever will at this point.

    "I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

    by MPH73 on Aug 31, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I do like the overall direction the farm system is going. It’s not going to be rated the best after the promotions (Castro,Cashner). It’s still got some interesting pieces.

    But another thing about Hendry is he loves to mess with prospects. How can you justify Cashner not starting right now? We’re out of it, there’s nothing to lose. And you don’t even have to start him in the majors. Send him to the minors to work on developing another pitch. It’s unacceptable how he’s in the bullpen. This was a top 100 prospect and we’re wasting him.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

    meh

    At this point, I don’t think so. It would take him a month to really get stretched out again well so that he could start in the bigs. There isn’t a month left in the minor league season. Iowa is in a playoff race of their own. I’m not sure that messing with that doesn’t come into the decision making process as well.

    I’m fine with letting him finish the season in the pen and then getting him prepped to start next year.

    "Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray

    by Archie on Sep 1, 2010 6:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

    The bigger problem with Cashner is that he lost a year working on his #2 and #3 pitches

    While getting pounded in the Cubs bullpen. Start him in the 2011 bullpen and the idea of him as a starter is pretty much gone – he needs time in AAA to develop pitches, not stretch out.

    by ClarkFan on Sep 3, 2010 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Fair enough.

    I don’t disagree with your assessment. But when I read the phrase “an old team coming out of nowhere,” the White Sox leapt to mind. And I’m not sure they’re going “nowhere,” they’re four games out going into the last month of play.

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    by daver on Sep 2, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

    But the White Sox weren’t an old team coming out of nowhere. As someone pointed out earlier they had Alexi Ramierz, Carlos Quienten, Gavin Floyd, etc. They weren’t like some fossil of a team. It really never happens with an old team. You just don’t have a couple of down years and rebound to the playoffs.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 2, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

    So would you call the White Sox an "old team" or not?

    You seemed to imply they were one above.

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    by daver on Sep 3, 2010 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

    are we talking about 07 or right now?

    by Bad Midget on Sep 3, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Right now.

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    by daver on Sep 4, 2010 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

    or the 2007 and 2008 White Sox

    In 2007, the White Sox finished the season in 4th place with a 72-92 record. With pretty much the same group of “aging” players in 2008, they went 89-74 and finished in 1st place

    by magicblue on Aug 31, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I’m not trying to deny it can’t happen. I’m saying the odds are not great. We’re not that young. Yes, of course, we’re getting younger, but were not like the Rays where we have all these high upside toolsy guys. We have Castro and Colvin, that’s it. Maybe Cashner. It probably won’t happen. Picking out isolated examples doesn’t really help.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Dude, I don't know why you are getting killed on this thread.

    You had a well thought out post. These guys on here who think we can win next year are deluding themselves. I’m with you. I have no problem passing on a high-priced, aging vet who won’t realistically help us do anything except climb to third in the division.

    And the sarcastic comments from those not willing to rebuild are ridiculous. The cubs organization has NOT been in a rebuilding mode during most of the past 50 years or so. They’ve been in a “sit on this cashcow and don’t spend any money” mode until the last decade or so.

    Look, the reality is that the team tried really hard in the last decade, but we swung and missed. Hendry was given the green light to make huge back-loaded deals in an effort to maximize the value of the club and “win now”. The gamble didn’t payoff for anyone but the Trib, and now we gotta pay.

    Now with a new owner, it’s time to tear it down, and rebuild. Someone pointed out that a team should contend every year. I agree. But that only works if your franchise is set up properly. Our currently isn’t. We’ve got a mediocre farm system, a ton of dead money on the books, aging and increasingly useless overpriced vets on our roster, and a front office in flux.

    Someone else pointed to the Yankees as a model of how free agency can boost a club. True, but the Yankees have always had a good core of reliable and talented leaders, and they handle their budget the right way.

    If the Ricketts are interested in truly REBUILDING the team, I’m down. If they put a ton of money into prospects, scouting, player development, and infrastructure, yippee. I’d rather see money go into that than signing Dunn for absolutely no reason other than to contend for 3rd in the division.

    Like it or not, we’ve hit the reset button. Might as well start anew the right way. And the right way is to properly and carefully develop Colvin, Castro, Cashner and other near ready prospects, while making an effort to acquire YOUNG free agent talent. And if possible, structure player contracts in a way that doesn’t wreck the future.

    BTW, please everyone stop with the posts that usually go:

    “We can win now! All that has to happen is for Castro to become the next Arod, Colvin to become the next Pujols, Z to become the Z of four years ago, pickup Cliff Lee, Fukodome to increase his production by 50%, and Wells to look like the next coming of Greg Maddux. Oh, and pick up Prior. I heard he’s reattached his arm and is ready to go. Hey, it could happen!”

    These posts are ridiculous.

    by ChiLobo#23 on Sep 2, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

    also DCF

    I’d be inclined to agree with you if there was some kind of juggernaut Yankees or Rays in the NL Central, but there isn’t.

    Its a mediocre division that currently has only 2 teams above .500, and the division isn’t going to be much better in 2011, IMO

    by magicblue on Aug 31, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The Cardinals finally realized they have good players on their entire roster. I can’t wait in a couple of years to make fun of the Matt Holiday contract. That’s almost is going to be as bad as Soriano’s was.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

    i dont believe contention

    is being good enough to win a bad division then have the odds highly stacked against you in the playoffs

    i believe contention is being good enough to be the best team in the league

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 31, 2010 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Only 2-3 teams a year are projected to win 97 games (range 90-104 wins)

    which I guess would be true contention if you’re defining true contention as a team that would be projected to win a low of 90 games. How many teams do you think were projected to win 97 games in 2010? PECOTA projected exactly 2 teams to win more than 97 games (Rays – 99 wins and Yankees – 100 wins).

    That is not realistic. 90% of MLB teams don’t field teams that can be “the best in the league” based on projections, and frequently the “best team” doesn’t win the WS. In a vacuum, your position would be virtually indisputable.

    Tampa has been fortunate enough to be able to stockpile talent because they were so bad for so long and they hit the jackpot in the draft and the Yankees outspend everyone for their wins on the FA market. Most teams do a combination of both approaches. If you are arguing that the Cubs should be spending their money more wisely, well you won’t find many dissenters here.

    Adam Dunn, on a 3 year deal for at most $36million (2 million more per year than his 2009-10 salary), will be worth the contract and more than likely much more. If Dunn can provide an average of 3.5 WAR production between 2011-13, he would be worth $47.25million. As long as Hendry doesn’t offer some obscene contract, Dunn is likely to provide excellent value for the next 3-4 years. More importantly, he fills two major needs, a consistent left handed run producer and a serviceable 1B whose wOBA has been consistent for the last 9 years.

    Sure there are parts of the Cubs roster that are or will be over 30, but a few of those guys are going to be gone after this season and several more will be gone after 2011 (Fukudome/ARam/Silva/Grabow), Dunn will be one of the few remaining +30 year olds on the Cubs 2012 roster (along with BigZ, Dempster, Byrd and Soriano). The vast majority of the players on the team will be in the middle of their prime years or younger in 2012.

    I prefer an incremental approach back to true contention over trying to make several moves in 2012. Sign Dunn this offseason, maybe solidify the bullpen as well. Trade for an #1 ace (Greinke, Verlander, etc…) in 2012, etc…..

    by magicblue on Aug 31, 2010 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

    If Dunn can provide an average of 3.5 WAR production between 2011-13, he would be worth $47.25million. As long as Hendry doesn’t offer some obscene contract, Dunn is likely to provide excellent value for the next 3-4 years.

    Dunn hasn’t had a WAR above 3.5 since 2004. It’s crazy to assume he’ll continue to be that good in past his prime years.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

    That's because his total WAR has always been reduced because of his terrible OF defense

    He’s played exclusively 1B for the 1st time in his whole career in 2010. You’ll notice that Dunn has been worth 3.8 WAR this season (according to fangraphs) versus 1.2 WAR in 2009, despite the fact that his offensive numbers have been nearly identical in 2009 and 2010.

    The Cubs aren’t going to be playing Dunn in the OF, and at 1B he’s been a shade below average defensively, which bumps up his overall WAR nicely.

    It really is important to separate defensive value from offensive value when looking at WAR, total WAR doesn’t provide enough information about the separate components (defense vs offense) that go into the WAR calculation. This is especially important for a player like Dunn who is playing a different position (OF vs 1B), which he is much better at defensively.

    Comparing his WAR when he was an primarily an outfielder versus his WAR when he is primarily a 1B is not appropriate, IMO.

    I’d venture to say that Dunn is going to end 2010 being worth somewhere between 4.2-4.5 WAR, that’s excellent production from 1B.

    by magicblue on Sep 1, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Your right

    but how do we know Dunn is a good defender. One seasons worth of data of UZR can’t tell you anything.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 1, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

    He was also a slightly below average defender at 1B in limited playing time before 2010

    Its still a pretty small sample size, but in total he’s played over 250+ games at 1B in his career between 2002-2010.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dunnad01.shtml

    by magicblue on Sep 1, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I guess. Put it’s pretty hard to assume he’s suddenly a mediocre defender. I’m not saying he is, but I can’t really believe that.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 1, 2010 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Umm, you did get the news that he changed positions?

    And that his defensive metrics are different at 1B than they were in the OF?

    by ClarkFan on Sep 3, 2010 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

    the 2010 White Sox

    John Danks – 25
    Carlos Quentin – 27
    Alex Rios – 29
    Gordon Beckham – 23
    Gavin Floyd – 27
    Alexei Ramirez – 28

    the majority of their core is in its 20’s

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 31, 2010 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Hmpf.

    I assumed Rios was over 30. I guess it’s mostly their bench that’s old.

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    by daver on Sep 2, 2010 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

    old guys

    Konerko – 34
    Vizquel – 43
    Buehrle – 31
    Pierzynski – 33

    out of those guys Buehrle is still close to prime years and performing. The only big “old guy” performer is Konerko

    and then their bullpen is a bit older, off top of my head Putz and Thornton and Jenks are all 32-34 i think

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 2, 2010 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

    And, of course, Juan Pierre - 33

    So that would make their typical starting lineup:

    Pierre 33
    Vizquel 43
    Rios 29
    Konerko 34
    Manny: 38
    Quentin 27
    Beckham 23
    Pierzynski 33
    Alexei 28

    …which probably explains why I think of them as old. Honestly, having Vizquel at the top of that lineup should cancel out at least one of their younger guys. (←joke)

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    by daver on Sep 2, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The Cubs are no longer and will not be considered an "old team" now and

    for the next couple of years. Maybe they can be the young surprise team next year. It’s not very likely, but if it can happen with the Padres…

    "A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon

    by Cubbiegoon on Aug 31, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I guess, your right. Still, the Cubs outfield for the past few weeks has been all over 31 players. Nady is a first, Aramis is at third. It’s still a rather old team.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Actually they aren't that young

    Soriano-33
    Byrd-33
    Aramis-32
    Dempster-33
    Fukudome-33

    We really are not that young. We got rid of Lee and Lilly/Theriot. Really all we got was DeWitt. We really aren’t that much younger.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Its easy to select a few players over 30 on the Cubs and a few players under 30 on the WSox

    While leaving out the 10+ Cubs players that are under 28 and the several WSox players that are over 30.

    The 2010 Cubs are the 8th youngest team in MLB with a mean age of 27.8 years. The mean age of the 2010 White Sox is 30 years.

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rosters//sort/averageage/order/false

    by magicblue on Sep 1, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

    that's misleading as well

    the Cubs roster is dragged down by their bench/bullpen and the White Sox roster is dragged UP by their bench/bullpen and that data is significantly skewed just by Castro/Vizquel

    Give me the core of the 2010 White Sox (Core defined as above league average production in OPS/ERA)

    Konerko – 34
    Rios – 29
    Quentin – 27
    Beckham – 23
    Ramirez – 28
    Buehrle – 31
    Danks – 25
    Floyd – 27

    That’s 2 players over 30 and just 1 player over 31.

    The 2011 Cubs if including Dunn would be:

    Dunn – 31
    Ramirez – 33
    Soto – 28
    Castro – 21
    Soriano – 35
    Byrd – 33
    Colvin – 25
    Dempster – 34
    Silva – 32
    Zambrano – 30
    Gorzelanny – 29
    Wells – 29

    That’s 60% of the rotation and about half the lineup that would be not only over 30, but over 32

    These are big differences.

    Just because the Cubs have had a revolving door bullpen of 23-25 year olds doesn’t mean they’re a young up and coming team. The Core of the team is still old with the exception of Castro, Soto, and perhaps Colvin if he can sustain this Slugging Rate

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 1, 2010 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

    No offense, but you are cherry picking data to support your position

    The mean is the truest measure of centrality in statistics assuming a normal distribution. Its used all over baseball to describe a team’s performance (team BA, team OPS, starting staff ERA, bullpen ERA, team BA with RISP, average # of pitches seen per plate appearance, etc…..)

    The entire 25 man roster contributes to the team’s success. And Vizquel has been a key to the WSox this year, just as Castro/Colvin have been to the Cubs success (or lack thereof). The young Cubs bullpen is a big part of why the Cubs have been so bad this year. Just as Freddy Garcia was a huge part of the WSox success in the 1st half of the season.

    I don’t believe its appropriate to just selectively neglect part of a data set, especially when the youngest and oldest players on any team can be major contributers to the team’s Win-Loss record.

    by magicblue on Sep 1, 2010 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

    my point is

    if you do a weighted average based on contribution (something like WAR), you’d get a MUCH different story than the one you’re telling

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 1, 2010 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I understand

    but you still need to look at the entire roster when doing this “weighted average based on WAR”. In your post, you selected all the highest ERA/OPS guys and most of them happened to be below 30, that doesn’t mean the lower ERA/OPS players who happened to be older had no contribution at all. In fact, some of them were extremely important players for the respective teams.

    I’d venture to say that the young Cubs bullpen has been worth a significantly negative WAR in 2010, how does that youth not factor into the calculation for the team’s win-loss record?

    Vizquel, Garcia, Pierre, Konerko, and AJ have all been contributors to the WSox performance this season, would the WSox have performed just as well if we only looked at their young players who happen to also have the lowest ERAs or highest OPSs.

    It still amounts to cherry-picking data…..

    by magicblue on Sep 2, 2010 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

    you're right on the cherry-picking

    its on both ends though

    my general point though was that teams usually surprise when they’re younger rather than when they’re older. And then there is the problem of being “too young”, as the Cubs back-end bullpen can attest to.

    Usually the teams that surprise aren’t just young, they have most of their core players on the younger side but are in or entering their prime. That’s the key. The number of players in their prime years.

    The Cubs currently have a barbelled roster of really old guys and really young guys. Very few guys in their prime or scheduled to be in their prime next year.

    That’s why I think its unlikely to have some massive upside surprise next season and why I think its terribly risky to invest lots of dollars and years into MORE guys beyond their prime years

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 3, 2010 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

    If those are the players most similiar to Dunn...

    …it would be crazy to offer Dunn anything over two years. All those guys faded pretty dramatically.

    "I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

    by BucknerKongCardenal on Aug 31, 2010 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I definitely don't want Dunn

    (I’m not a fan of Outhouse or Penthouse players in general), but there is no way the Cubs will get A-Gon this winter — they would have to start their package with Castro and Cashner.

    Fielder might be available (since his arb salary will be way higher than A-Gon’s option), but they will still have to give up something good from their meager supply of top prospects.

    I would rather see the Cubs sign a one-year stop-gap (i.e., Glaus, etc.) and wait for the 2011 class (Albert, Prince, etc.) since I think that 2011 is going to be a development year for the younger Cubs like Castro, Colvin, and DeWitt.

    "I've never complained about it. I'm thankful to have a jersey." Mark DeRosa, 22 Aug 2007

    by DeRoMyHero on Aug 31, 2010 2:30 PM CDT reply actions  

    And, of course...

    …trading for Fielder would mean giving the Milwaukee Brewers something of value (pitching, I presume), which would be ridiculous.

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    by daver on Aug 31, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Very good first post

    I like the idea of Dunn, but something on a 2 year deal that he got from the Nats would be about all we should commit to him. If we had a 2 win 1B in our system that could fill our needs at 1B, we could probably scoot by with that instead of 4 years of Dunn. Still, something about him does scream Mo Vaughn.

    Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

    by IowaCubs- on Aug 31, 2010 2:35 PM CDT reply actions  

    I’m not saying I especially like him there (I think he’s got the tools to become a good defensive outfielder). Then again, Colvin would be one of the weaker first baseman in the national league. I also wanted to say maybe the most underrated thing in this entire Cub season is Kosuke Fukudome not being terrible. It’s really amazing. He’s got an Ops above .820. I don’t love Colvin at first but it could work

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Sounds good to me...

    Maybe Vitters pulls it together next year and we’re able to move Colvin to the outfield in 2012? Either way, an aging Dunn with a 4 year contract will just prove to the world that Jim Hendry has learned nothing from all the huge contracts this team is burdened with.

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    by IowaCubs- on Aug 31, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

    You got to remember Vitter’s isn’t even 22 yet. He’s got a long time. His defense isn’t especially great, but it’s got to better the Aramis’. But you can’t give up on Vitters. He’s got thirty home run potential. I’ve watched him; big body, strong wrists, he should be good. He always takes time to adjust to the next level he’s at.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Aram Factor

    Although I have my misgivings about Dunn, I think you have to do it if you can keep it at three years max. One factor people are failing to consider is that Aram, in all likelihood, will be gone next year , pretty much whether he performs well or not. Without him- and Im pushing it w him- we have no real legitimate bopper in the middle of the lineup. How do you match up w Fielder/Braun, Holliday/Pujols, Votto/Bruce without having at least one lockdown, 100rbi guy?I’d love AGON but it probably ain’t happening.

    by Mmurton on Aug 31, 2010 3:43 PM CDT reply actions  

    Aramis is exercising his option for next year.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

    He said he was “honoring” contract, whatever the hell that means. Probably " I know I won’t make as much money, but I love this place." I’m not saying I wouldn’t do it, but it’s pretty obvious how the thinking goes. It would have been really interesting to see if he had a typical ARam type year (25 home run/100RBI) if he would have opted out.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The free agent crop of third baseman is terrible, by the way. I mean he could have gotten a big deal.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

    what he says

    means nothing. what else would he be expected to say?

    by circuitclout on Aug 31, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

    yeah that’s what i mean. I would do the same as him.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

    despite the poor start

    he has every reason to opt out.

    the cubs need a lot to go right next year to contend and it’s hard to come up with a scenario where they would exercise their option on ramirez in 2012. that means he’s basically guaranteed just $16 million on this contract. given the number of teams with a need at 3B (laa, cws, chc, atl?, det) and the very limited options at the hot corner he’d be dealing from a position of strength and his numbers since june 1st should go a long way toward allaying fears about his health.

    if ramirez can get at least 3 years plus and option, double his guaranteed money, and increase his chances of playing in the post season it’d pretty clearly be in his best interests to opt out.

    by circuitclout on Aug 31, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

    He’s not going to opt out, but really I think that’s a good idea. I know he could get a longer term deal, but what’s better:

                                   1.Opt out, get a longer year less money
                                   2.Stay with Cubs for one more year, make more money in one year than you would have on the market.

    I think you have to go with number two. He’s really not a viable third baseman at this point from the defensive standpoint. Again, that decreases his value.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Aram Factor

    I meant to say after next season, my bad. Even if he plays well next yr, I think the Cubs have seen enough of his act. Furthermore, even a good yr from him next season wont make a 16mil option very appealing. Very few players are worth that type of money, even on a 1yr deal.

    by Mmurton on Aug 31, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

    He really is a terrible third baseman. I love him on the offensive side, but he’s really a lazy defender. Maybe it’s because of the injury last year, but no excuse for not getting in front of ground balls. His ISO’s have declined every year for a couple now. Scary.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Good article on Dunn:

    D

    unn turns 31 this winter, and there are some pretty scary comparable players that have had their careers veer over the cliff after their 30th birthday. Richie Sexson posted a .385 wOBA at age 30, then went .355, .305, .314, out of baseball. Mo Vaughn put up a .421 wOBA at age 30, then went .370, .369, .349, .291, out of baseball. These guys were paid handsomely for a skillset that is very similar to Dunn’s, and teams have become a bit nervous about giving long term deals to guys with old player skills. However, there are guys like Jim Thome that have remained highly productive, so we can’t assume that Dunn is certainly headed for steep decline.

    Will Dunn find the market to be more friendly than the last time he was a free agent? He was essentially the same player two years ago when he had to settle for just $20 million over two years. Have teams become bigger fans of his since then, or is Dunn in line for another rude awakening when he asks for a long term contract? Let your voice be heard below, and we’ll talk about the results tomorrow.

    Link
    I think it’s interesting he only got a two year deal last couple of winters. Will teams value him more? You would have to think not a lot of NL teams will be interested. I’m thinking like a 4/14 deal probably.

    That’s a lot to pay.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 4:15 PM CDT reply actions  

    That point about Thome at the end is quite important

    and Thome isn’t the only example of a player with old-player skills that has had success.

    Also, Dunn’s wOBA has remained rather consistent between 2001-2010. In fact his wOBA this season is nearly identical to his OBA from 2001.

    There is no way that Adam Dunn is going to get a 4 year / $14million deal. He doesn’t want to DH, so he isn’t going to an AL team. That leaves 16 NL teams in the running. How many of those need a 1B? Only a few. Of those, how many would even be willing to pay Dunn $10million a year? I count Braves, Cubs, Nationals, maybe the Giants. There are also several FA 1B for 2011.

    First basemen
    Lance Berkman (35)
    Jorge Cantu (29)
    Adam Dunn (31)
    Troy Glaus (34)
    Eric Hinske (33)
    Aubrey Huff (34)
    Nick Johnson (32)
    Paul Konerko (35)
    Mark Kotsay (35)
    Adam LaRoche (31)
    Derrek Lee (35)
    Melvin Mora (39)
    Xavier Nady (32)
    Lyle Overbay (34)
    Carlos Pena (33)
    Fernando Tatis (36)
    Mike Sweeney (37)
    Ty Wigginton (33)

    I think Dunn will sign for an annual average salary equal to what he’s made in 2009-10 ($10million a year). I think he would take a 3 year contract (maybe a team or mutual option for a 4th year).

    by magicblue on Aug 31, 2010 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Then again

    Thome doesn’t have all the “old player skills”, he’s always had a higher batting average. Those guys tend to age easier. But I agree on the three year deal, though it does scare me.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Thome has also Dhed a lot

    Chronologically inept since 2060
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    by Cubbie-Tim on Aug 31, 2010 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Dunn has pretty much come out and said he doesn’t want to do that. I kind of like that, but I’m not sure I can trust his defense. I’ll give him credit, it’s really improved at first.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Thome is potentially a HoF'er.

    Dunn is not. Is that another reason not to compair them?

    Dunn may want to stay in the NL, but if his choices are a 1yr 10 million dollar contract from the Cubs or 3-30 with the Yankees, which one do you think he will choose?

    "I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

    by BucknerKongCardenal on Aug 31, 2010 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

    He’s going to want one last big contract. I’m not sure if he’ll get one, that is if he wants to stay in the NL.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

    On second thought...

    …it might have been Dunn that was wiser for only taking two years. If he had signed for 3 years he would be competing with the Big Three during his contact year.

    I would assume AL teams could afford to offer more money and years to Dunn. I just wonder how much money Dunn is willing to walk away from to stay in the NL.

    "I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

    by BucknerKongCardenal on Aug 31, 2010 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Konerko, LaRoche, Nady would all be solid options for 2011. Wait out the contracts, sell some more veterans, and build the farm system while pouring money into the draft. We’ll have a really nice pick this year.

    by Bad Midget on Aug 31, 2010 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Nady? You mean Xavier Nady? #22 for the Cubs now? Tall guy...dark hair?

    You’re credibility just went right out the window on that one. Talk Dunn down as an aging player with no skills, other than hitting homers…and then suggest Nady? Wow!! That guy is garbage. He’s a DH at best. I’d take Hoffpauirr over another year of Nady and I think Hoffpauirr is worthless. Let’s put a guy on 1B who’ll hit 15 HRs and knock in 40 runs, but, can’t throw the ball from 1B to home plate without using a cut-off man and let’s pass on Adam Dunn, cuz, he’s got old skills, at 31, and he’s aging.

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
    Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.

    by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2010 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Nady is an above-average major league hitter when healthy

    And he would be just fine as a stopgap at first base, as BM is suggesting.

    by Shanghai Badger on Sep 2, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

    He's had TWO Tommy Johns and Still can't throw the ball to ANY base in the air...he's done defensively...

    and a “stopgap” until who gets here?

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
    Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.

    by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Yeah.

    Give me Nady’s career numbers when healthy, and I can live with that.

    by Shanghai Badger on Sep 4, 2010 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The point is

    while a good arm is a good quality for a 1B to have, the ability to throw is down the list of priorities for a 1B

    I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
    ~Earl Warren

    by lookingdeadred on Sep 5, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

    glove and foot work > arm for 1B

    not everyone gets that it seems

    Chronologically inept since 2060
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    by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 5, 2010 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

    apparently so

    I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
    ~Earl Warren

    by lookingdeadred on Sep 5, 2010 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

    So, you're saying...
    build the farm system while pouring money into the draft. We’ll have a really nice pick this year.

    Go ahead and suck for the next couple years? Go 65-97 or 70-92? Wait for the future to arrive? So, status quo then? The future is already here. By the time they wait until the next crop of new guys developes, guys like Colvin and Castro will be “aging” players and they’ll have to go. It’s a vicious circle, isn’t it?

    Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
    Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.

    by Easy Ed on Sep 2, 2010 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Yes, that would be great. Instead of trying to win 82 games for one year. We could possibly build a contender year in and year out by being patient and pouring money into the draft. So that way instead of contending for one year, you can contend for years. But go ahead and try to win 82 games next year, that’s fine. The hell with future….82 wins here we come!

    by Bad Midget on Sep 2, 2010 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I agree with you, Bad Midget.

    Somewhere in this thread someone said they’ve watched the Cubs build for the future for 40 years. That’s absurd. Other than the late 80s, the Cubs minor league system has produced, at best, a sad trickle of position players. It’s impossible to build for the future when Karl Pagel is your best minor league player.

    Nor have the Cubs in that period traded a ton of aging vets for young players in a rebuilding mode. It just hasn’t happened.

    The worst thing about Dunn and Sandberg coming next year is that it will make a lot of fans feel like something is changing when it will just be more of the same Cubdom. Or Cubdumb.

    by the nth on Sep 2, 2010 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

    See the problem I have with your whole argument is it doesn't really acknowledge the business side of baseball

    This is 1st and foremost a business. The Ricketts and all other owners are in this to make money. Fans in the stands buying overpriced tickets, beer, and hot dogs is the lifeline to making money in baseball. Just throwing in the towel and spending a few years rebuilding is not a well thought out business plan, IMO.

    Many extremely successful organizations rebuild and try to contend at the same time – they are not mutually exclusive. That’s been my position all along.

    We have financial flexibility with $25+ million coming off the books this season and another 35-40million coming off the books after the 2011 season. We also have at least 6-7 solid prospects that made their MLB debuts in 2010 or will be making them in 2011-12.

    In your scenario, to truly rebuild, the Cubs would have to reduce their payroll into the $70million range just to compensate for the dramatic fall off in revenue that would occur due to lower attendance during this rebuild era. I just don’t see the point when the owner has already said that he is willing to keep payroll high.

    Its okay to pay for free agent talent as long as its spent on the right FAs. I fail to understand the rationale to go into a full scale rebuild mode when the Cubs have $65+ million in roster flexibility over the next two offseasons.

    Start the incremental rebuild now, sign Dunn for 1B and solidify the bullpen this off season. These have been the two weakest links on the Cubs this year. After 2011, try to trade or sign a true #1 starter (Greinke, Verlander, etc…), by 2012, we should have at the very least Brett Jackson in the majors and we would still be able to evaluate the fringy talent in the minors to see if they’re are any useful pieces for 2012. By 2013, this team is ready for true 90+ win projection contention.

    by magicblue on Sep 2, 2010 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

    the problem i have

    with your business assumption

    is that it basically calls into question two things: 1) Cubs fans intelligence 2) Cubs fans loyalty

    If you assume just because the Cubs go young, the fans wont show up at all that suggests 1) We’re just not that loyal and 2) The Cubs fans are incapable of accepting any plan that doesn’t have a 1 year end date.

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 3, 2010 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

    It's very easy to alienate a fanbase.

    Just ask the Cleveland Indians.

    "You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

    by Al Yellon on Sep 3, 2010 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

    fanbases get alienated

    from developing stars and letting them walk or trading them and this being done repetitively. Fortunately the Cubs fanbase doesn’t have this problem because we haven’t produced stars internally in a while

    All good fanbases will sit through a rebuild for a year, what they won’t sit through is repetitive rebuilds that ALSO include moving the few good young players they’ve developed (PIT, FLA, CLE are examples of that)

    If the Cubs fanbase isn’t willing to accept ONE year in which they don’t spend for FA’s and instead invest in development, then we as a group are idiots

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 3, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Well, I guess we'll see whose right around Feb, 2011 when tickets go on sale next year

    If the Cubs go into rebuild as you suggest for 2011 and don’t make moves that can be viewed as improving the chances for success in 2011 and beyond, many Cubs fans will use their intelligence in this down economic environment and stay home, especially when the ticket prices are the highest in baseball. And I’m not talking about fans like those of us that post at BCB and other Cubs blogs (the more religious fans), I’m talking about what could be called “fair-weather” fans.

    The Cubs may fail to draw 3million fans this year (I think there around 2.5million right now). Next year, in rebuild mode, they will most definitely draw less than they have this season. The owner has already said that (obviously) payroll is tied to revenue.

    I just don’t see the point in not trying to contend every year. Baseball is a crazy game. Teams come out of nowhere (even old teams). I could give countless examples.

    Sure it’s less likely, but that doesn’t mean impossible.

    The Cubs can contend in 2011 with the right moves by Hendry. It will involve signing FAs and/or trading prospects for an true #1 ace. Both can be done with an eye firmly towards the future. Castro has been worth 2.3 WAR so far this season. I had him at a ceiling of 3 WAR player in 2011, I don’t believe it’s too far-fetched to suggest that Castro may be a 4-5 WAR player in 2011.

    Add Dunn (3.8 WAR so far in 2010), a full season of Big Z – the starter (1.3 WAR so far in 2010, 3.2 WAR in 2009), continued excellent performance from Geo (3.3 WAR so far in 2010).

    If you want real 90+ projected wins contention, trade for Greinke (4.6 WAR so far in 2010, 9.4 WAR in 2009) by offering the Royals a package they can’t refuse.

    by magicblue on Sep 4, 2010 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

    But risk your future? So what if the Cubs don’t draw people for one year? Yes, of course they can’t make money, but who cares? It’s not like the Cubs are in danger in moving to another city. If the Cubs can rebuild people will come. Hell, people still go today. It looks bad but you don’t risk your future by trading brett jackson, hak-ju-lee, and another good prospect for Greinke and you don’t sign adam dunn to a huge deal.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 4, 2010 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

    ticket sales are important no doubt

    but the Cubs make a lot off jerseuy sales, shirt sales, beer sales, and so on. a slight drop in ticket sales is more than covered by the noodle and Toyota sign as well i would think

    Chronologically inept since 2060
    "I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
    Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
    Wrigster A: Theriot

    by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 4, 2010 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

    and many of those who are crying to trade all the kids for a few pieces

    also complained about Dontrell Willis and Josh Hamilton being traded once they put up numbers in MLB.

    Chronologically inept since 2060
    "I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
    Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
    Wrigster A: Theriot

    by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 4, 2010 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

    There is the little matter of the half a billion $ the Ricketts borrowed to buy the team

    And $175M comes due in 2013. Finances are a real issue and a way they have never been before., and all the revenue-generating goodies get driven by ticket sales.

    by ClarkFan on Sep 4, 2010 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

    there is an assumption in here

    by both you and magicblue that spending is correlated to wins

    thats an unknown

    one of the easier ways to be able to meet the financial obligations is to control cost

    the suggestion to SPEND MORE in order to be able to meet obligations takes on an assumption that by SPENDING MORE you will EARN MORE (likely through wins).

    I’m not saying its a wrong assumption, but it is an assumption. We’ve seen plenty of years where the Cubs have spent significantly and it hasn’t translated to wins. This year is another example

    follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 5, 2010 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

    That wasn't the point I was trying to make

    Bad Midget was talking about not caring whether the team made money for one year, but the Ricketts have to care – they have to service that debt (including principal repayment), and probably don’t want to be dumping Ameritrade stock in this market. So, yeah, the Cubs have to make money – and with the existing payroll commitments it is probably hard to do that by going 62-100 – which is a suprisingly real risk because there is limited talent on the roster, not much of a starting rotation shaping up for 2011, and not much immediate help in the farm system.

    I’m not thrilled with the idea of Dunn, but the problem is that the Cubs don’t have a lot of good alternitaves for 1B, and none internally save for the sudden crushes on Xavier Nady (Vitters is ringing up a .223/.292/.383 year in Tennessee, so he is a loooong way from Wrigley). Of the three post-2011 FAs, Pujols is great but a budget buster who will be 32 before he starts on his GDP-sized contract (2 months younger than Dunn); Fielder is on his way to 400 lbs and has had a real power fall-off this year (Dunn’s 2010 OPS is higher); Gonzalez is the best pick (IMO), but there will be a tough race for him and a team that has a year like the 2011 Cubs are setting up will have to massively overpay to sign him (seen that movie – hated the ending).

    So I don’t like the scenario of saving up and rolling the dice in 2011 – the chances of losing out are too high and that doesn’t leave a decent plan B for 1B and getting a power bat in the lineup. And even if they sign Dunn for, oh, 3 years, the Cubs need to look hard at how they draft – the crux of this problem is the lack of power hitters in the minor league system.

    by ClarkFan on Sep 5, 2010 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

    still ignoring the fact

    that adding cost means you have to add revenues above the cost to end up saving money

    the revenues above that cost are not guaranteed

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 6, 2010 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

    When the Cubs win, revenues are higher

    Look at the empty seats in 2006 and 2010 as prime examples of that.

    People thinking that ownership will ignore this and punt for 2013 aren’t being rooted in reality.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 7, 2010 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

    adding adam dunn

    1) does not guarantee enough wins that it impacts the butts in seats

    2) it does guarantee an increase in cost

    thus for an ownership group in need of extra profits (an assumption in this thread), the revenues have to exceed the costs

    if #1 isn’t guaranteed and #2 is… and i’m in need of excess profit….

    well the easiest thing to do is NOT increase cost

    follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 7, 2010 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The fastest way to alienate the fanbase

    Is to pinch pennies and strip away the goodwill.

    This team didn’t draw and provide revenue like they currently do when they were cheap in the early 90’s. The winning product and atmosphere allowed the team to be the profit center it is.

    How spending 700+ million for a franchise, then gutting it makes any business sense is beyond me.

    I have to believe its beyond Ricketts as well. Punting till 2013 like some are pining for would ensure he becomes the most hated man in Chicago. NO WAY he bought this team for that dubious “Honor”.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 7, 2010 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

    "Hated" Ricketts may be able to live with

    Coming up with $175M out of his own pocket would be the hard part – and if team revenues fall that is what he will have to do.

    by ClarkFan on Sep 8, 2010 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

    "gutting it"

    i’m NOT talking about GUTTING

    PLEASE PLEASE EVERYONE STOP WHEN I TALK ABOUT NOT SPENDING AS IF ITS A MASSIVE FIRESALE

    I’m talking about leaving payroll closer to the $120 million mark as opposed to the $140 million mark

    FOR ONE YEAR

    follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 9, 2010 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

    But the Cubs can't be a low cost team in 2011

    The existing commitments are too high. Even if there is a massive off-season contract dump salary will be well over $100M just because of the money the Cubs would have to send with players (Z, Soriano, Fukudome, Silva) to get another team to take their contracts. Shoot, there are still something like $60M in commitments for 2012 in place.

    So the Ricketts really need to keep attendance at 3M/year or so, and that starts with season ticket sales over the winter. No moves will probably lead to a not of non-renews, as it will be a clear sign of writing off 2011. Signing a player like Dunn for 3 years will at least help marketing without really blocking any young players coming up.

    But the team also needs to spend major $ on scouting/development in the offseason. The minor league system is still pretty weak, especially for top-tier prospects.

    by ClarkFan on Sep 8, 2010 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Agreed on the system being over rated by some here

    The punt till 2013 crowd just assumes we will be flush with A rated prospects in 2 years. This franchise hasn’t developed prospects like that ever. How it just starts tomorrow is wishful thinking.

    Plug the holes now. Then as blue chippers are ready. Let them take over. Our outfield is a good example of this.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 8, 2010 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

    The punt till 2013 crowd just assumes we will be flush with A rated prospects in 2 years. This franchise hasn’t developed prospects like that ever. How it just starts tomorrow is wishful thinking.

    I don’t think anyone said that. With some very good draft picks plus other minor leaguers in our system, either through trade, draft, international signing, we should be able to compete in a couple of years.

    This premise of “Oh, we have to get 3,000,000 fans” is ridiculous.

    Just because the Cubs are going to lose money doesn’t mean you go out and do something irrational like signing Adam Dunn in a vain attempt to win, thus putting people in the seats.

    If you build from within for a couple of years (granted, successfully) you’ll be able to win, other than some stupid attempt to try to be mediocre by shooting for 82 wins.

    The Cubs aren’t going to move to another state. They’ll be fine for one year. It’s okay not to be good for a couple of years.

    Then, once you become close to contention, go out and sign free agents as you wish.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 8, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

    OK, let me make this real clear

    The Ricketts family can’t afford for the Cubs to lose money by having attendance slump. They borrowed half a billion dollars to buy the team and owe $175M in full repayment by 2013. If the team loses money, that creates a family financial crisis, as their other main asset (Ameritrade) is also far below its peak value due to the financial crisis, and the amount they put down to buy the team has basically used up their liquid assets.

    by ClarkFan on Sep 9, 2010 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

    again...

    you’re saying they can’t afford

    if they can’t afford something and your solution is SPEND MORE to be able to afford it

    you better have clear evidence that this investment will result in a net gain on revenues

    Adding $10-15 million in cost from Dunn, needs to come with a certainty of revenues above that $10-15 million in cost

    follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 9, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

    I don't understand what magically happens in 2 years of not tying to be competative

    This organization isn’t going to develop 25 Stars between now and 2013.

    This core, while flawed. Can still be competitive if augmented by the right pieces.

    Assuming that a roster full of 25 year old All Stars just falls in our lap on January 1st of 2013 is naive, and would be reckless to expect.

    Bottom line is we are going to have to pay free agents to come here and play. We can do it by getting Dunn and Vazquez this off season, and another piece of 2 next off season.

    We can try doing it all in one off season. Either way its what is going to have to be done to be competitive.

    There is no other way its happening.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 9, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

    expecting

    Javy Vazquez and Adam Dunn to take a 70 win team to the brink of contention and shelling a ton of dollars and years out to do it would be flawed and reckless

    Your plan is built around FA and lacks long-term thinking or tactical planning

    who are the pieces the following years that you’d target?

    Are you planning on constructing another roster laden with long-term 8 figure deals that tie up flexibility by spending to the brink of payroll year after year?

    Why not take a year to let the dust settle and instead of spending on guys that fit right now and might fit for 1-2 years, target guys who fit 3-5 years down the road, while maintaining payroll and roster flexibility to let players develop during a period you’re unlikely to compete anyway

    the band-aid approach of relying on FA year-to-year with no foresight or planning for what lies ahead in future FA classes is exactly what we’ve been doing for the last 5 years

    That results in a “boom or bust” approach to contention in which you have to overpay for whats on the market right now and fit square pegs into round holes with players more likely to decline than ascend

    that’s a faulty long-term plan if your goal is consistent success

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 9, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I advocate having a strong farm system

    I just don’t believe there is EVER a legit reason for a 140 Million dollar payroll team to not even MAKE AN ATTEMPT to be compete.

    Choosing to not fill holes THIS OFF SEASON isn’t going to magically make these roster holes go away. It’s only going to leave the same holes to be filled in 2012.

    What sense does that make?

    If there was an A rated First base prospect in AAA and an A rated Starting pitcher in AAA, then I understand using the farm system.

    I don’t understand plugging Casey Coleman and Micah Hoffpauir into Chicago roles and proclaiming “Mission Accomplished in 2011”.

    Simply put there is NEVER an excuse for a 140 Million payroll MLB team to tank a season. Its insanity to hope we take that route.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 9, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

    instead of Coleman and Hoffpauir

    how about…

    Adam LaRoche and Andrew Cashner

    i think you’re confusing those who don’t want to spend in the 2011 offseason with those who don’t want to saddle the roster with more long-term commitments that dont fit within the window for contention

    Add guys like Dunn/Vazquez are big money multi yr commitments to guys that don’t align with our most likely time to compete

    thus they’re just big wasted gobs of cash

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 9, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Your proposal won't really work

    Cashner has a 5.82 ERA in the bullpen because he is struggling to get MLB hitters out the first time he faces them in a game. Before he can be an effective major league starter, he need to improve his #2 and #3 pitches and his location/movement on his fastball. I don’t see how he can transition to starter without time in Iowa.

    LaRoche is just Dunn Lite – same age and the same player without the burden of high OBP or a lot of power. And despite the slagging Dunn takes for fielding, the stats say they are about the same there, too. But LaRoche is unlikely to be cheap enough to be preferable to the real item.

    And if the team shoots for a $120M 2011 payroll, they can’t even afford LaRoche. They have about $103M commited to 9 players, with Marmol, Soto, Marshall and Gorzelanny eligible for arbitration. At $120M, they would have to fill the rest of the roster with minimum salary players. Try selling 3M tickets on that prospect…..

    And I dislike the idea of rolling the dice on signing Gonzalez – what if he decides to go somewhere else or gets $25M+/year? Then what? There still aren’t any 1B candidates in the organization who are likely to be ready before 2013 barring some miracles.

    by ClarkFan on Sep 10, 2010 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

    cashner just has highest upside

    he’s not necessary considering we already have the following under contract as SP options for next season:

    Zambrano
    Dempster
    Gorzelanny
    Wells
    Silva

    that’s 5 guys right there

    then you have in the minors knocking on the door

    Jay Jackson
    Cashner
    Chris Archer
    Chris Carpenter

    SP really isn’t that big of a need to go out and spend a lot next year

    especially when the spot can be better served letting guys get major league innings under their belt and develop

    again i’d rather develop guys and win 77 games

    than spend big and win 82-84 games and block guys paths to development

    follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I'm not advocating Dunn and Vazquez on 8 year contracts

    I do agree that long term, plugging holes with farm products is a better way to go.

    Only problem with that now is…….

    We don’t have the prospects to do that now.

    Choosing to tank in 2011 isn’t going to turn Micah Hoffpauir into Adrian Gonzalez.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 9, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

    it could!

    if you simply wait for Adrian Gonzalez to hit FA after the 2011 offseason

    and in the meantime sign a veteran to 1 yr deal (like LaRoche got this past offseason)

    follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 9, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

    So in your opinion

    Going 10/250 on a Gonzalez is smart franchise building, but going 4/48 for Adam Dunn is a terrible waste of resources?

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 9, 2010 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

    10/250??????

    no…

    and i dont think that’s even in the realm of possibility for gonzalez’s next contract

    the only team that gives out that money has locked in positions at 1B and DH for yrs to come

    follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Signing a guy like LaRoche is a waste of cash IMHO

    Adam Dunn is a legitimate 900 ops bat to stick in the middle of the lineup. Hands down he’d be the best hitter in our lineup.

    LaRoche is a high 700’s-810 Tops OPSer.

    He’d be our 4th best hitter. You’d be better off with Colvin at first at that point.

    Typical Ed Lynch roster construction. Why get the best guy when you can get 2 wholly mediocre guys for the same price?

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 9, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Adam Dunn isn’t going to take your team into contention.

    YOur blowing all your money on a player that might not even be good in 2 years, but even if he is, this team isn’t going to compete next year be getting Adam Dunn. It just isn’t

    by Bad Midget on Sep 9, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

    We've lost 30 1run games

    You don’t think adding a 40 Homer 100 Plus guy to this roster would help?

    Should the Cubs close shop and contract because they are a lost cause?

    Adam Dunn is 30 years old. He has been remarkably consistent since he broke in 10 years ago. Never has he had injury issues.

    What signs has ADAM DUNN showed that he is slipping? Tom Brunansky falling off 20 years ago has absolutely ZERO bearing on Adam Dunn 2011-2014.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 9, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Of course

    he’s good right now. I know that. Even if Dunn doesn’t decline dramatically he’s still a waste of money for a team that isn’t going to contend for maybe a year or two. You can use the money you don’t spend on Dunn on International free agents, the draft, and trades.

    He hasn’t had a season above 3.5 WAR since 2004. He isn’t going to take you to contention.

    All of that considered, and I haven’t even mentioned the decline. Tom Brunansky, Mo Vaughn, and most recently Richie Sexson. All examples of players with similar skill sets that declined around the same age. Remember, all of those players, like Dunn, had put up very good numbers in the past. Again, Adam Dunn could be fine, and for the first year or two he could be great. But that isn’t the point. The poinit is for a team that isn’t going to compete soon, spending money on Adam Dunn isn’t going to solve your problems, it might just make them worse.
     

    by Bad Midget on Sep 9, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

    You keep saying that Adam Dunn

    won’t help a team contend. On his own, of course not.

    But your failing to even think about the possibility that Castro and Geo turn into huge offensive contributors. Geo and Castro have been worth 6-7 WAR this season. And both have less than 400 PAs at the moment.

    With proper lineup construction where Geo isn’t batting 7-8 and is batting 3-4, and a full season of Castro, its not too far fetched to think that they’ll be worth 9-10 WAR together. Dunn at 4-5 WAR, BigZ as a starter all year is another 3 WAR (versus 1.2 WAR this season).

    What if the rest of the $7-8million we have left to spend is used on improving the bullpen, which has cost us several wins this season.

    Its important to look at why this team failed this year and use that to construct the 2011 roster before you say that contention is impossible.

    I’m of the opinion that Lou had one of his worst seasons as a manager this year. The misuse/use of KHill cost this team at least 3-4 wins. The AAA bullpen was responsible for another 6-7 wins, and lack of production from the 3 and 4 holes was the biggest killer.

    Dunn fills the middle order bat. A new manager could actually use Geo properly. Some wisely spent money on low cost FA relievers and/or shifting of pitchers from rotation to BP would significantly reduce the 7-8th innings blowups that have cost us so many games this year.

    Fringe contention in 2011 is not impossible, its possible with the right moves.

    True 90+ win projected contention could come in 2012, when $40+ million additional money is coming off the books. That could be used to replace ARam at 3rd and sign/trade for a legit #1 ace.

    Expecting to fill all the holes in the 2011 off-season is asking for trouble.

    by magicblue on Sep 9, 2010 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

    We’re going to be lucky to make it 70 wins this year.

    What you just said is so easy to take and turn it around.

    But your failing to even think about the possibility that Castro and Geo turn into huge offensive contributors. Geo and Castro have been worth 6-7 WAR this season. And both have less than 400 PAs at the moment.

    Wow, that’s some good production. Geo is really good and will all most likely stay very good, Castro is a very good player but I’m not sure he’s a .317 hitter. Geo has probably already hit his ceiling. Geo could also get injured at anytime.

    I’m of the opinion that Lou had one of his worst seasons as a manager this year. The misuse/use of KHill cost this team at least 3-4 wins. The AAA bullpen was responsible for another 6-7 wins, and lack of production from the 3 and 4 holes was the biggest killer.

    Koyie Hill has a -0.7 WAR. I’ll give you a huge benefit and say by plaing Geo more we gain one win, which is actually a lot.

    Dunn fills the middle order bat. A new manager could actually use Geo properly. Some wisely spent money on low cost FA relievers and/or shifting of pitchers from rotation to BP would significantly reduce the 7-8th innings blowups that have cost us so many games this year.

    First off, I’m not sure how your going to spend money on Adam Dunn then find quality pitchers to shore up your rotation. Your crazy if you think Adam Dunn plus 2 low cost free agents plus new mangaer equals a 20 win increase.

    This isn’t even taking into account the regression you can reasonably expect from Soriano, Byrd, and Fukudome. Plus, Aram is over 30, 3/4 of your outfield is over 30, and 2 of them are having career years. Our rotation is just brutal.

    Silva really is just bad, Dempster has declining peripherals and is over 30, Gorz is a mediocre pitcher that you shouldn’t rely on day in and day out, Zambrano is a very good starter, and then…….some low cost free agent? I don’t think that even gains you wins.

    You have to remember baseball prospectus pegged the Cubs for 77. It’s not like this season was a huge surprise or anything.

    Those things you suggested won’t take the Cubs to the playoffs or for that matter even that close. If your goal is to win 79 games, yeah, go ahead.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 9, 2010 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

    if you would have commented in my post

    Is contention in 2011 possible, you would see that the Cubs in fact could have enough money for both Cliff Lee and Adam Dunn as long as payroll is maintained at the $143million mark, all the while maintaining even more payroll flexibility in 2012.

    http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2010/8/21/1634982/payroll-in-2011-is-contending

    I’m sure you’ve read the post on fangraphs about Geo, go skim through some of the comments there and you’ll realize that over 650 PAs Geo would have been worth 7-8 WAR this season. Obviously, 650 PAs for a catcher is not feasible, but the point is that Geo is being misused and would be more valuable if used properly.

    I’m not expecting a decline from Castro and neither are most knowledgeable baseball people. Most of them think he’s going to be an AS SS in 2012, I agree with that, he really is that good.

    Funny how you decided not to comment on the atrocious bullpen and how that is a very fixable problem considering the Cubs have blown more games in the 7-8th innings that most teams in baseball this year.

    And you (and others) act as if age related regression is the end all be all, when its not. Its something that is statistically noticeable when you group several hundred players together. It doesn’t say anything about the trends in a single player or how sharp that decline will be or at what age that decline will begin. Sure you can find a specific example of a player that illustrates the decline in a single player (e.g., Brunansky), but not all players follow the same trajectory of decline.

    Countless +31 year old players have career seasons (Beltre and Konerko in 2010, DLee in 2009, I could go on and on and on with this)

    And, I’m not even going to get into the 79 versus 86 win projection. There is a variance associated with projections and they are fairly unreliable (when measured using statistical analysis). That means there wrong a lot of the time.

    And the rotation wasn’t brutal early in the season, it was one of the top 5 rotations in the NL through July, when games still counted, based on rotation ERA, its been brutal lately.

    How about the craptastic job of managing Lou did this year? I’ve read somewhere (although I can’t find a link at the moment) that a MLB manager can have about a 5 WAR influence on a team over the course of a season. Lou’s decision making may have cost this team as many as 5 Wins. Little things from starting Nady in RF before he could make long throws, moving BigZ to the pen, using Grabow for anything more than A LOOGY, batting Theriot leadoff, batting Geo 7-8 or letting him ride the bench for 2 straight weeks, etc…. These things add up and are under the control of the manager and can be fixed without spending any money. Below is a great interview with the author of the book “Evaluating Baseball Managers” by Chris Jaffe.

    Managers can have a significant impact (positive and negative) on a team’s performance

    http://www.azsnakepit.com/2010/1/22/1201672/evaluating-baseball-managers-a

    The point is that Dunn on a 3 year deal makes the Cubs a better team in 2011 and he’ll still be around in 2012 when the Cubs can make a run at true, true contention. His skills are not going to completely disappear overnight, you yourself said he is a consistent 40HR / 100RBI guy, even if he declines to 30HR / 90 RBI, I’ll gladly take that for $10-12million a year for 3 years. I wouldn’t sign Dunn to a 5 year / 60million contract and I don’t thin Hendry will either. But I don’t see a lot of downside to Dunn on a 3 year deal.

    by magicblue on Sep 9, 2010 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

    And, I’m not even going to get into the 79 versus 86 win projection. There is a variance associated with projections and they are fairly unreliable (when measured using statistical analysis). That means there wrong a lot of the time.

    Baseball Prospectus is widely regarded as the best projection system out there, the got such notable seasons like the Rays in 2008. It’s a very good projection system. Again, your looking at everything positive that could happen.

    You even say it yourself:

    Obviously, 650 PAs for a catcher is not feasible, but the point is that Geo is being misused and would be more valuable if used properly.

    Geo has been out of the line up for extended periods of time for two years now. It’s hard to assume to get 120 games out of him.

    I agree with you on the bullpen, it’s mostly a crapshoot. Sometimes relievers are good and sometimes they’re bad for a season.

    But you still haven’t talked about all the players with regression.

    Our outfield consists of 2 players over 30, one who’s had a career year, one is over 30 and last year looked like one of the worst players in baseball. Byrd is bound to regress and a lot.

    Eramis can’t stay healthy, has shoulder problems, and is striking out more than ever before.

    Tyler Colvin really can’t do anything but hit home runs, his defense isn’t that great, and he doesn’t take a walk.

    Again, our rotation is looking terrible heading into next year:

    Dempster and Zambrano’s peripherals are suggesting decline, Silva is terrible, Gorz is mediocre, and then…… what? Cliff Lee would be great, so would Adam Dunn.

    That is a very good post, I would be intrigued no doubt by Cliff Lee and Dunn, but after seeing so many free agent dollars shelled out…. I don’t know if the team is that close to contention to be shelling out money to two players that are past their respective primes. Maybe. But for a team that probably won’t compete, why risk it?

    I like the idea but I’m just not sure that’s the way to go.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 10, 2010 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Well if I'm putting the most positive spin on things

    You, my friend, are putting the absolute worst spin on things.

    Of course if everything shakes out the way you expect it, the Cubs won’t win 60 games.

    If everything shakes out the way I see it, the Cubs could be an 87-90 win team.

    Of course, neither of us is going to be completely right. But, the Cubs should be doing everything in their power without jeopardizing the future to contend every year. Spending (at most) $36million on Adam Dunn for his 31-33 age years can only help the Cubs. I can’t believe you don’t see that. It makes them a better team. If the Cubs explore a trade for Greinke this offseason rather than after 2011, they will be right there contending in 2011.

    And, regarding projections. Even BP suffers from major reliability issues. I can’t believe you don’t see that. Your putting your faith in BP because they picked the Rays in 2008, Really?

    For the last 3 years, they have picked the Rangers to have a losing record, they picked the WSox to finish last this year and the Dodgers to finish 1st.

    Just an example, BP’s preseason projections for the AL East were Rays/RSox/Yankees/Orioles/Jays, as of today the standings are Yankees/Rays/RSox/Jays/Orioles. So far, they were right 0 times for the AL East. They were perfect so far for the AL Central.

    In the AL West BP preseason = A’s/Mariners/Texas/Angels, AL West actual standings = Texas/A’s/Angels/Mariners. Again, right 0 times.

    That brings us back to the variances in these projections. Even if BP is as accurate as you think and picked the Cubs to win 77 games in 2010, assuming a standard deviation of 9 wins (most projection systems have SDs of 7-9 wins), that means the Cubs projected range of victories for 2010 was anywhere between 68 wins (if everything goes wrong) and 86 wins (if everything goes right).

    I guess we’ll see how accurate those pre-season projections are after the season is over

    by magicblue on Sep 10, 2010 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

    The Rays and Reds have lost 23

    1-run games

    the 1 run games are part of the problem, but its the run differential of -100 that is the real problem

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Don't confuse...

    …losing a lot of one run games from the Cubs being a move or two away from winning those games.

    Losing a lot of one run games is simply the sign of a bad team and nothing more.

    If Ricketts is smart, he has to get at the core of why the Cubs have had such bad years between division titles. If he digs deep enough and corrects the problem, he will be on the right track to having a consistant winner vs the current “reactive” focus the current baseball brain trust has had.

    "I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

    by MPH73 on Sep 10, 2010 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

    try facts on for size

    LaRoche career OPS – .831
    Dunn’s career OPS – .904

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/larocad01.shtml

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Well, by your logic

    Laroche is also 30, shouldn’t he be in for a decline like Dunn as well? And a.073 difference in OPS is nothing to sneeze at.

    Laroche will be a 750 OPS guy long before Dunn will be.

    He also has a mutual option with AZ, whose to say he doesn’t just exercise that option?

    He’d also cost at least $8-9million, I’d rather have Dunn for three years. Then sign Adam Laroche for one year and then AGon for 7-8 years for Matt Hollday money. You plan still ruins long-term flexibility for the Cubs.

    What if Geo continues to hit and be somewhat injury prone and needs to be moved to 1B in 3-4 years? Well a 3 year Dunn deal would be done by then and AGon would be blocking Geo.

    And if you think AGon is going to sign for less than than 7 years (or less than $16million a year), I want some of the stuff your smoking…..

    by magicblue on Sep 10, 2010 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

    your magic scenarios are borderline ridiculous

    1) i’ve never conveyed signing Gonzalez for Holliday yrs

    I’ve said many many times that I think the supply/demand characteristics of the 2011 FA class combined with the economy lead to a different type of signing that before

    There will potentially be THREE big time FAs who all play the same position. THREE

    If all 3 are out there and there are only 2-3 teams that can afford them, demand is down and supply is high, thus the contract comes down (hopefully in yrs as opposed to money)

    I think one of those guys will end up signing for 5 yrs as opposed to 6-8 because of those supply/demand characteristics and because of the current economy

    2) If Geo gets hurt that he cant play Catcher, is he hurt enough that it somehow doesnt impact his bat and thus devalue him to the point you wouldnt want him at 1B anyway? This so called injury happens at 3 yrs and not 2 hurting flexibility? This is ridiculous

    3) hoping everything goes right to get to 86-87 wins (your post above) is not contention

    4) LaRoche should decline some, but it doesn’t matter because the team aint contending next year anyway. It’s a stop-gap and a potential trade asset at the deadline. And it doesn’t have to be LaRoche, it could be a guy like Nick Johnson

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Didn't this team make the playoffs in 2007?

    How can we say without reproach that this team is losing 100 games END O SUBJECT?

    The Central is almost always week. Dunn and a solid mid rotation starter could easily put this thing in the mid 80’s win level.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 10, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

    THREE, THREE, THREE

    1) Pujols is likely to sign with the same team, even you’ve agreed with this

    So now we’re down to 2. Lets keep in mind that there are a lot of teams that are going to need a 1B after 2011, there will be competition for their services.

    2) Fielder has been terrible offensively this year and he’s worse than Dunn on defense at 1B. He’s also a very big fellow (with a higher body mass index than Dunn) who may already be in decline. He’s gonna be the one that signs for 5 years. I don’t want him for 5 years either. He’s not going to be worth the cost, he might not be right now.

    No thanks on Fielder

    3) So now were down to 1. The mighty AGon, who I would love the Cubs to have. He’s solid defensively, he would mash at Wrigley and he’s a lefty. Unfortunately, the Cubs won’t be the only team bidding for AGon. The RSox, WSox, countless other teams are going to want him. It is going to take a Holliday 6-7 year / 16-17million contract to land AGon. How can you even disagree with this?

    While AGon would be nice at that price for years 1-3 of his contract, he won’t be worth it towards the end of it.

    Dunn will easily be worth $36million in WAR over the next 3 years, probably more, even with a decline. And its a short term contract that will provide value.

    I mention Geo as an example, catchers move to 1B all the time later in their career because of the wear and tear of being a catcher, I’m sure you know that. 1B is also where crappy defensive players go to hide, its a place where other potential players can be moved if their skills at other positions diminish. I’d prefer to not have the position locked down by a Fielder for 5 years.

    Look, there’s no sense in arguing about this any longer. We have different perspectives and I prefer Dunn on a 3 year deal (4th year option) over Fielder for 5 years, or AGon for 7 years, or Pujols for 7 years. The only contract I would prefer over Dunn would be AGon for 5-6 years max, and I just don’t see that happening.

    I’d rather use 2012 to get that #1 Ace with Dunn having already put up his customary 35-40HR/90-110 RBI line for the Cubs in 2011.

    by magicblue on Sep 10, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I don't necessarily disagree with you on Dunn...

    …but I’m having a hard time figuring out your perspective on Prince Fielder. How has he been terrible offensively this year?

    Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

    by daver on Sep 13, 2010 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Prince hasn't been terrible

    That was an exaggeration on my part, his numbers aren’t as gaudy as they’ve been the past few seasons

    For me, its mostly that I just think Prince’s decline will be faster and begin at an earlier age than most given his body type.

    I’d be scared to death about signing Prince for more than 3 years if I was the GM of an NL team.

    by magicblue on Sep 13, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Yeah, it doesn't look like...

    …he’s going to have another 6.9 WAR season this year. But his numbers are still really strong. And, granted, his body type and conditioning are huge risk factors. So is his defense — ugh. But he’ll be only 28 in his free agent year, so if the Cubs could get him to agree to a five-year deal, that would be at least three years of prime production. He’s hit really well at Wrigley Field, too.

    Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

    by daver on Sep 13, 2010 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I'll also add

    that I’m not sure its wise to sign Prince to what would likely be a minimum 5 year deal with an average annual salary (AAS) in the range of $15-20million.

    I’d still rather have Dunn for less years and less AAS.

    Dunn might want $14million+ a year, but he’s not going to get it as long as he wants to play the field and he’s forced to stay in the NL. I don’t believe a NL team in their right mind would offer Dunn more than a 4 year contract with an AAS of $10-12million.

    The difference in salary between Dunn and Fielder/AGon in 2012 could be used to fill other positions of need with better players

    by magicblue on Sep 13, 2010 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The 2011 rebuild is a fools errand though

    What is more self defeating than rebuilding without the prospects to rebuild?

    This lost season is a peering into the strength of our system. Sure we have some decent pieces to install on the fringes. However thinking we are building anything of substance around Tyler Colvin at First and Marquez Smith at 3rd is utterly silly.

    This is a 140 Million payroll team. Not the Kansas City Royals.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 7, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

    However thinking we are building anything of substance around Tyler Colvin at First and Marquez Smith at 3rd is utterly silly.

    Nobody in this entire thread has said anything about building around Tyler Colvin and Marquez Smith. The Cubs are going to have some really good draft picks. They could get as high as the fourth pick. They need to pour money in the draft.

    This is starting to get ridiculous, nobody at all is suggesting to become the Pirates, nobody. It’s called rebuilding and every single team in baseball has to go through it. One year of not spending money is not becoming the Pirates and not becoming the royals. It’s called being smart. One year folks. We’ll be fine.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 10, 2010 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

    What is more self defeating than rebuilding without the prospects to rebuild?

    There are things smart general managers/franchises do:

    1. Pour money into the draft when they have a good pick. Actually go over slot for a first round pick.

    2. Sell high on veterans like Byrd, his trade value really won’t be any higher. You can get some good prospects for him.

    3. Be aggressive in the international free agent market. Look at the Red Sox and Yankees, hell, even look at the pirates. All of them are stocking their systems with high end talent.

    That’s how you rebuild. ONe year of this won’t kill you. The team won’t move, the attendance thing is way overblown, the Cubs haven’t been below 27,000 in a long time. We’ll be fine. It’s not being the Pirates. Once you have a somewhat competitive team, then yeah, go ahead and spend money on the free agent market.

    Hopefully, one day will be like Boston where we can replace players with quality minor leaguers without having to rely on free agent.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 10, 2010 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

    So you have to lose 100 games to do that?

    That sounds like Jim Hendry’s one move at a time philosophy.

    Try and add vets to be competitive in 2011.

    AND SIGN AND DRAFT GOOD YOUNG PLAYERS.

    Its not a mutually exclusive proposition. Unless you really think ownership is going to spend 100 million on the draft this year?

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 10, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

    140+ million payroll...

    …is the key thing to look at here. Why is it, that the highest payroll in the NL has missed the playoffs (by a lot) for two straight years?

    I can assure you, simply replacing the manager or opening the check book to try and cover past mistakes are not the answer to this simple but important question.

    The most important thing Ricketts can do this offseason is making the right read on figuring out the why, and being proactive in fixing it.

    "I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

    by MPH73 on Sep 10, 2010 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

    I understand your frustration...

    …but age really is the key factor here.

    If we define “aging” as 30 years old, Starlin Castro won’t be an aging player until 2020, and Tyler Colvin won’t be one until 2015.

    Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

    by daver on Sep 3, 2010 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Bad Midget

    Your thoughts are most impressive…

    by Mapmaker on Aug 31, 2010 6:22 PM CDT reply actions  

    First

    IMO it’s shortsighted to say the Cubs cannot compete next year, even with largely the same roster. I think this team has massively underachieved this year and lay most of the mess at the feet of our beloved former manager. Al was right, if Lou had been gone in May, this season may have been completely different. The talent level is there. We have a nice young core up the middle with Soto, Castro and DeWitt plus admittedly aging but still capable sluggers Aram and Sori. Look around the league…the Padres running away with the West? An always mediocre Central? It wouldn’t take much for this team to turn it around and compete next year: Gorzo get a little more control and turns in a 15-10 3.50 season, Z throws 190 decent innings, Diamond and Cashner develop the pen, who knows? Maybe Angel Guzman could even make a comeback (that’s a joke). Please, please stop saying this team cannot compete next year. Your bad mojo is making Adam Dunn’s back hurt.

    by SouthWabashSoul on Sep 1, 2010 10:17 AM CDT reply actions  

     t

    hink this team has massively underachieved this year and lay most of the mess at the feet of our beloved former manager. Al was right, if Lou had been gone in May, this season may have been completely different. The talent level is there. We have a nice young core up the middle with Soto, Castro and DeWitt plus admittedly aging but still capable sluggers Aram and Sori.

    That’s the exact thing people said a year ago, at this time. Face it, the Cubs aren’t underperforming (to some extent) they’re just a bad, aging team. It’s asinine to blame it on Lou. It’s really amazing how JIm Hendry doesn’t get balmed by Cub fans. It’s like they talk about Lou, but not about JIm. Hendry shouldn’t even have a job.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 1, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The Cubs are totally underperforming

    They were projected to be a 84-86 win team in 2010 and they are likely going to win around 68-72 wins.

    I don’t really think the Cubs underperformed in 2009, they were in 1st place in August, 2009, the Cardinals traded for Holliday and the rest is history. The 2009 team’s performance was actually quite remarkable given injuries to 80% of the starting rotation and key injuries to our #1 run producer, off years from several key players, and the Bradley situation.

    If Ramirez wouldn’t have been out for 2 months last season, I’m sure the Cubs would have won at least a few more games and made things a little more interesting in 2009.

    by magicblue on Sep 1, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

    If Ramirez wouldn’t have been out for 2 months last season, I’m sure the Cubs would have won at least a few more games and made things a little more interesting in 2009.

    After a while you can’t say “so and so” was injured, you can’t do that with an old aging team. Face it, we knew when Hendry signed all those guys in 06 that this situation might happen. Injuries happen to old teams. With an old team you expect an Aramis Ramierez to break down, you expect Alfonso Soriano to break down. It’s inevitable with an old team.

    They were projected to be a 84-86 win team in 2010 and they are likely going to win around 68-72 wins.

    Baseball Prospectus had them at 77 wins. Only a few had them in the low eighties, but I’ll go with that and say so what? Who cares if they win 82 games? That’s not going to win you the division. Of course they underperformed. The pirates were projected for about 68 wins. They’re not going to reach that, they’re underperforming. Underperforming is when high expectations were in place. I think if you ask most intelligent people they would say the Cubs didn’t really have a great chance. Underperforming in 2009 I agree with. But not 2010.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 1, 2010 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

    no they were not

    they were projected to win 77-78 games by BP

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 1, 2010 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I don't recall projections to be that high

    Maybe ‘predictions’ made by fans on BCB had them winning 84-86.

    But The highest projection that I saw had the 2010 Cubs at 83 wins.

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    by WittyUserName on Sep 2, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

    There are several different preseason projections systems, Just a few of which are below

    http://www.baseballprojection.com/2010/optimist2010.htm

    (81 wins)

    http://rlyw.blogspot.com/2010/01/extremely-early-2010-mlb-projected.html

    (84 wins)

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/4956

    (87 wins)

    I’ve seen other projections which had the Cubs projected to win anywhere from 78-86 games before the season started, I can’t find any more of the links at the moment.

    by magicblue on Sep 2, 2010 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Baseball Prospectus is easily the best projection system out there. They got the Rays in 2008 right, they got the Angels being bad this year, and they got the Cubs right this year too. BP is the best projection system out there without a question, citing three random projections doesn’t justify it at all. The point is they’re not really a good team. Yes, in relative speaking, sure they underperformed. But that’s like saying the Pirates underperformed because they were projected for 68 wins and they’re on pace for 62.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 2, 2010 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

    All three of those are excellent projection systems, especially MARCEL and CAIRO

    If your trying to say that projections systems are not reliable, well I won’t argue with that point. But BP has also been wrong several times as well, see 2010 Padres.

    MARCEL and CAIRO have also been right about several of the projections as well, so I’m not sure what your point is. Each projection system is right sometimes and wrong sometimes. There is a huge issue with reliability in most projection systems.

    I was just responding to your post that no projection system had the Cubs as winning more than 81-82 wins……

    by magicblue on Sep 2, 2010 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

    okay fine that’s cool. But still…..so what? They were projected for low 80s/high 70s, big whoop. I don’t care if they’re at 85. I want my team to be able to contend for a pennant. Especially with an old group of players you knew you were going to have to rebuild sometime.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 2, 2010 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The point is that if the Cubs could have lived up to an 84-86 win projection through the end of July

    maybe the Cubs decide to add a few wins at the trade deadline. Maybe they could have gone out and traded for Cliff Lee or another player, instead of trading DLee, Lilly, Theriot, and Fontenot

    by magicblue on Sep 6, 2010 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Dunn

    I think Dunn would take a 2 yr. deal from the Cubs with 3rd and 4th year vesting options based on performance. If he wants to stay in the NL and has a 2 yr 25 million deal on the table from the Cubs that could ultimately be 4/50 if he performs or a 4 yr. 44 offer from an AL team, I think he takes the happiness of being a bad fielder and signs with the Cubs.

    But that’s not necessarily the right move. With all the talk about the 2012 FA class, all the options available this winter, Kila, etc, there may be a sleeper move out there. (Confession, I read this on another Cubs blog) Now, Hendry hasn’t been exactly the GM to make a prospects for prospects deal, but the Reds have a ML ready left-handed slugging 1B named Yonder Alonzo who has a ML contract and no place to play. The Cubs could certainly put together a package of young pitching which could entice the Reds to trade Alonzo in division. Re-sign Nady as insurance and you’ve gotten younger, better and found a long-term solution at 1B. It seems like such a good idea that there’s pretty much no chance of it happening.

    by SouthWabashSoul on Sep 1, 2010 10:35 AM CDT reply actions  

    At the end of the day...

    …I just don’t see Ricketts allowing any FA signings that are double digit millions per year (not for 2011).

    I’ll take a guess and say the payroll next year will be no higher than 130 mil.

    "I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

    by MPH73 on Sep 1, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Well, the 2011 Cubs payroll before arbitration raises is at $103million

    If we assume a payroll of $130million, then that will leave around $27million for arbitration raises to the 4-5 players that we are likely to keep and FA signings. Lets just make a blanket statement and say the arbitration raises will total $12million (the raises likely will be much less than $12million), that leaves the Cubs with a minimum of $15million to spend on FAs.

    So do you still believe the Cubs won’t be able to sign any double digit million dollar FAs?

    by magicblue on Sep 1, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Yes I do...

    …and it is simply because Ricketts has seen enough mistakes and pain from big contracts to where he is unlikely to go down this road in 2011.

    "I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

    by MPH73 on Sep 1, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Two thoughts....

    …who says you absolutely have to spend it? Also, who will make the decisions on spending it is what is most important.

    "I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel

    by MPH73 on Sep 1, 2010 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Thanks for the post. Nice job!

    I agree with you that there is risk with Dunn, but one way to approach it is to limit the contract term. Hopefully the Cubs at least learned something from signing Soriano, should they choose to go after Dunn.

    How about a 2 year deal? If the market for Dunn is “irrational” and commands a 4 year deal then who is at fault for making that market decision?

    I would take a short term deal on Dunn, especially if he’s not blocking another player in the minors.

    by DudeVf11 on Sep 1, 2010 2:14 PM CDT reply actions  

    exactly

    I would be thrilled with a 2 year, but wouldn’t be with a four year deal.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 1, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

    correct

    these power hitters can lose it overnight.but i think dunn will be fine for a few more years.we need this guy bad. 30 one run losses this year. we need someone besides ramirez who can drive in runs. you saw what happend when you depend on 2 guys to carry the whole team. both lee and ramirez went down the drain at once. dunn would compliment ramirez colvin soriano ect.

    by NOMAR on Sep 4, 2010 10:14 AM CDT reply actions  

    Some food for thought

    Derrek Lee had 56 RBIs for the Cubs this year through Aug 15th
    Adam Dunn had 80 RBIs (24 more than DLee) for the Nationals through Aug 15th

    30 one run losses by the Cubs, how many of those 1 run losses would have been victories?

    by magicblue on Sep 4, 2010 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

    RBI really is a terrible stat, it really doesn’t say anything. But…..yeah your right, Adam Dunn is a lot better than Derrek lee, there is no doubt about that at all. I don’t think anyone is trying to argue about Adam Dunn’s offensive numbers for next year or the year after that, what I’m saying is I would hate to have Hendry outbid everyone for a four year deal.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 4, 2010 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

    you think his RBI's would have won that many games

    lets look at the true rally killer Dunn is

    so far this season Dunn has (Cubs leader next to him)

    168 strike outs (106 Soriano, the same Soriano we complain strikes out too much)
    0 sac hits (for starters, Dempster, Silva, Wells and 8 other Cubs all have 1 or more, Dempster leading with 14. Soriano has 3)
    4 sac flies (5 for Rami, and guess what Nady has 4 to tie Dunn. Soriano has 3)
    65 walks (56 Soto in a lot less ABs, Fukudome is at 53 also in a lot less ABs, closest in same AB to Dunn is……..Soriano with 34)

    Dunn, well those are not stats you want, they will not winning games

    and FWIW here is his career rankings both season and career

    Strikeouts s c a p y
    2002 NL 170 (2nd)
    2004 NL 195 (1st)
    2005 NL 168 (1st)
    2006 NL 194 (1st)
    2007 NL 165 (3rd)
    2008 NL 164 (5th)
    2009 NL 177 (3rd)
    2010 NL 168 (2nd)
    Active 1601 (10th)
    Career 1601 (31st)

    Soriano 420 AB 72 RBI
    Dunn 476 AB 89 RBI

    Soriano and Dunn have a lot of similar lines in their stats. So, those who want to campaign for Dunn should be thrilled with everything Soriano

    now lets look at his numbers with RISP

    Dunn
    RISP he bats215
    RISP 2 outs he bats 148

    Soriano
    RISP he bats 279
    RISP 2 outs he bats 318

    close to half his RBIs are driging himself in

    Chronologically inept since 2060
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    by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 5, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

    driging = driving

    Chronologically inept since 2060
    "I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
    Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
    Wrigster A: Theriot

    by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 5, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

    I think

    his numbers are personally dragged down by the fact that he strikes out a lot. Dunn’s game isn’t hitting singles up the middle for a base hit. When he comes to the plate he and anybody that’s on base is in scoring position. You can nit pick it all you want but he really is a good hitter. 40 home run +.360 wOBA. I’m not trying to argue that, I’m saying there is a bunch of guys withe Dunn’s skill set that decline rapidly. By giving him a four year deal you run a huge risk for a franchise that probably won’t compete until 2012 till the earliest.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 5, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

    i agrew with you here

    he can hit when he makes contact, but he also misses more often than most others

    Chronologically inept since 2060
    "I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
    Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
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    by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 5, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

    The key to Dunn is the walks.

    His walk rate is down this year. He will likely walk less than 100 times for the first time in his career (except 2003 when he missed 40+ games).

    That’s worrisome. His other numbers are fine — but part of his value is that high walk rate.

    "You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

    by Al Yellon on Sep 5, 2010 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

    until you look at RISP or defensive numbers

    then there are additional worries.

    Chronologically inept since 2060
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    by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 5, 2010 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

    So would you be okay with Dunn on a 3 year /$30-36million deal?

    He’ll be worth that contract and then some, even with the expected decline.

    I see all the question marks with Dunn, I understand the skepticism that his old man skills might decline, i really do. His lower walk rate is concerning. As Al said, a lot of Dunn’s value is tied to his ability to walk. He’s either gonna walk, strikeout, hit the ball a 1 mile or slap a double. Even this year, over 50% of his hits have been doubles or HRs.

    I gush when I think of the type of numbers Dunn could put up at Wrigley. And the guy stays healthy. Dunn hasn’t had a major injury in his entire career and has played in 150+ games all but one year in his entire career. I believe he’ll rebound his walk rate next year (He’s one year removed from a string of 3 years with 115+ walks), maybe not all the way, but certainly more than his 65 walks in 2010.

    These old man skills don’t completely zap players of all value overnight. I don’t want to see the Cubs sign Dunn to an outrageous contract, but he really is the type of consistent production you can count on that we haven’t really had at 1B since Grace. DLee was solid, but he only had 2 +100 RBI seasons, Dunn’s had 5.

    I know RBIs are a team dependent stat, but they are still important, scoring runs is still important

    I also just don’t see a lot of better options. As many have said in this thread and others, we have no decent 1B prospects in the minors and hoping to get AGon (the only 2012 FA 1B that I want) and missing would just be Carlos Beltran all over again. AGon’s the only 2012 FA 1B I want, and he’ll be able to command a 7-8 year Matt Holliday type of contract because other teams will want him also (WSox, RSox, Giants). Paying a 35 year old AGon $17+million a year, does this team really need that? Pujols isn’t going to leave STL, I just don’t want Fielder, he may already be in decline, he’s been terrible this year and he’s worse than Dunn on defense.

    I’m really starting to like the Idea of a VMart/Geo 1B/C platoon for 2011. If Dunn is not an option, then this would be my backup plan.

    by magicblue on Sep 6, 2010 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

    BA with RISP is extremely dependent on sample size

    Its misleading to compare Soriano and Dunn for one year (2010) as you did in your post. Dunn was a lot better in all of those categories in 2009 for example. Most hitters, when given enough opportunities, will post a similar slash line with runners on as the career numbers in all situations would indicate.

    You also used BA (when Dunn has a low BA) without looking at OBP or SLG. So lets look at those and see if the picture becomes a little clearer. Over their entire careers, Dunn has an OPS of 910 (with runners on base), 894 with RISP, 874 with RISP less than 2 outs. Soriano has an OPS of 819 (with runners on base), 796 with RISP, 755 with RISP less than 2 outs.

    Oh yeah, and Dunn has a 1.041 OPS in 110 ABs with the bases loaded, Soriano has a 723 OPS in 120 ABs with the bases loaded.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6763/situational;ylt=Ar48Jzp0a3rIYSK_Kao6W.FCLcF?year=career&type=Batting

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6154/situational;ylt=Ar48Jzp0a3rIYSK_Kao6W.FCLcF?year=career&type=Batting

    I’d rather have Dunn for $18million per year through 2014 than Soriano, that’s for sure (not that I want either of them for that price, but if forced to choose between the two)

    by magicblue on Sep 6, 2010 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

    I’d rather have Dunn for $18million per year through 2014 than Soriano

    but since Soriano is not going anywhere, why would you want to saddle the Cubs with Dunn at $18M per year, too?

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    by lookingdeadred on Sep 6, 2010 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Where did I say I wanted Dunn for $18million a year?

    1 post above, I stated that I DON’T want Dunn for more than $10-12million a year, and for ONLY 3 years (4 years max)

    by magicblue on Sep 6, 2010 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

    A short article about Dunn

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/08/AR2010090806582_2.html?sid=ST2010090806796

    Dunn could get old fast. But more likely, because he has 350 homers now, he’ll retire as one of the top 10 honest home run hitters of all time.

    by magicblue on Sep 9, 2010 10:20 PM CDT reply actions  

    Keith Law comment on Dunn
    Jay (South Riding, VA)


    So what do you do with Adam Dunn if you’re Mike Rizzo? No way I’d give him a 4 year deal but it will cost them ticket sales with those fans obsessed with long home runs. They can’t afford to lose sales with Strasburg already gone for 2011.
    Klaw
      (1:16 PM)


    I keep hearing they don’t actually want him back – they want the picks. I wouldn’t give Dunn four years, for the same reason I wouldn’t have given Howard 5 years: That type of player ages poorly.

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 8:25 AM CDT reply actions  

    Ryan Howard has 28 HRs and 95 RBIs in 123 games this season at age 30. I'll take those numbers.

    Dunn has 34 HRs and 91RBIs. I’ll take that for type of production for $10-12million a year. I would even take a little less than that for the same money.

    Law said he wouldn’t give Dunn 4 years, Law also rated the Cubs minor league system 7th in the majors, LOL.

    I wouldn’t give Dunn 4 years either (only as a 4th year team option). Injuries have a significant impact on age-related regression. Players who get injured more frequently will obviously decline faster (e.g., Mo Vaughn).

    Dunn is having one of the best seasons of his career this year and the guy is also a pinnacle of health. I just don’t see measurable decline in the next 2 seasons and my goal for the team is to contend in 2011 and beyond, Dunn fits that bill.

    If you have a crystal ball and can tell me his walk rates will decline even more next year, well then I’ll agree with you, but if not, its pure speculation at this point.

    And as I’ve said repeatedly. Dunn for 3 years at less money is a more fiscally responsible and preserves continued roster and payroll flexibility (something you seem to champion) than signing Laroche for 1 year and then hoping to sign AGon to a massive Holliday/Soriano type of contract. No thanks!

    by magicblue on Sep 10, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

    his walk rates dont need to decline further

    they’ve already been cut in half

    once the bat speed slows (and the power drops) as it does with most players that age, Dunn’s value will drop significantly. Will that happen next year? Probably not, but next year doesn’t matter because the Cubs are likely to not be contending anyway. Each yr later on the probability gets higher of a decline and it coincides with the probability of the Cubs contending increasing

    that’s a poor plan

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

    whose to say that his walk rate won't rebound next year, it has in the past.

    He’s not in decline right now as his stats have remained consistent. Show me how Dunn has been less productive this season, where is the evidence of decline outside of his body type and some limited evidence that Brunansky declined. I see Frank Thomas as another potential comparison to Dunn, he was posting OPS’s around .900 till he was 38.

    His OBP is down, but his BA is up (potential BABIP effect? His BABIP is .016 higher than it was last season), his SLG is up and most importantly his OPS is fairly consistent with his career. Where’s the decline?

    He’s swinging at more pitches both inside and outside of the strike zone, maybe he’s being more aggressive because he has Ryan Zimmerman and his 14 WAR and .900 OPS batting in front of him for the last 2 years.

    There’s more than one explanation for Dunn’s declining walk rate….

    by magicblue on Sep 10, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Ryan Howard has 28 HRs and 95 RBIs in 123 games this season at age 30. I'll take those numbers.

    Dunn has 34 HRs and 91RBIs. I’ll take that for type of production for $10-12million a year. I would even take a little less than that for the same money.

    Law said he wouldn’t give Dunn 4 years, Law also rated the Cubs minor league system 7th in the majors, LOL.

    I wouldn’t give Dunn 4 years either (only as a 4th year team option). Injuries have a significant impact on age-related regression. Players who get injured more frequently will obviously decline faster (e.g., Mo Vaughn).

    Dunn is having one of the best seasons of his career this year and the guy is also a pinnacle of health. I just don’t see measurable decline in the next 2 seasons and my goal for the team is to contend in 2011 and beyond, Dunn fits that bill.

    If you have a crystal ball and can tell me his walk rates will decline even more next year, well then I’ll agree with you, but if not, its pure speculation at this point.

    And as I’ve said repeatedly. Dunn for 3 years at less money is a more fiscally responsible and preserves continued roster and payroll flexibility (something you seem to champion) than signing Laroche for 1 year and then hoping to sign AGon to a massive Holliday/Soriano type of contract. No thanks!

    by magicblue on Sep 10, 2010 10:26 AM CDT reply actions  

    I wouldn't take Howard's numbers for the money he is being paid.

    This is exactly what the Cubs need to worry about, signing a high salary for a number of years and handicapping themselves again with an underperformer. I think Dunn may indeed be worth it for 3 years, but we do need to be careful with the amount and length of a contract. Someone like Gonzalez is very attractive because he is young. And whether Fielder is a potential liability based on his body size, I wouldn’t worry much about signing him as he seems to be demanding a 5 year contract. No thanks there…already have too many longterm ones with a bad team handicapped.

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    by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 14, 2010 12:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Fun fact

    As on 9-14-2010

    AGonz is 28

    Fielder is 26

    Dunn is 30

    It’s not like we are resigning DLee or signing Paul Konerko. All three guys are likely to still have 5+ very strong years left in them.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 14, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The problem I have with so many of these posts

    Is that too many people are talking like we need to tank to rebuild. Why do we need to lose 100 games next year to “rebuild”?

    No rule against signing Adam Dunn and Javier Vazquez AND drafting good players and signing impact latin guys. This isn’t the NBA. You can win AND rebuild at the same time.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 10, 2010 11:06 AM CDT reply actions  

    signing Adam Dunn and Javy Vazquez

    would cost draft picks…. so they do have some level of impact

    I’m not arguing we should tank, I’m arguing we sign stop-gaps to 1 year deals that are 80% of that production and just as likely help us win 77-82 games

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

    I'd agree with that if there was any impact hitters in the system

    However Dunn wouldn’t be blocking anyone. Even if we get a stud hitter in next years draft. Dunn will be gone before “Stud first baseman drafted in 2011” is ready for Chicago.

    I don’t think we should spend big on a free agent center fielder or Shortstop however.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 10, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

    i don't have a problem with Dunn

    if:

    1) deal is kept to 2-3 years, preferably with options years after year 2

    2) Cubs are making the determination they absolutely have no chance at signing a true difference maker (Gonzalez, Pujols) or a guy who is closer to prime years (Fielder) the following year

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I'd be okay with Dunn on this scenario as well

    2 years guaranteed, maybe a player option 3rd year, with a team option 4th year (kind of like ARam’s contract). I’d obviously prefer Dunn on a 2 year deal as well, but he’s already come out and said that he wants more than a 2 year deal. Since he has already stated more than once that he would love to play at Wrigley, maybe he would go for 2 option years.

    And, Be honest? Do you really think Fielder is going to be worth his contract even on a 5 year deal? I sure don’t, he screams early decline to me.

    I’m also against Vazquez, he’s right on the type A/B border (75.00) and might fall to Type B status before the end of the season. I wouldn’t be opposed to Vasquez on a 1-2 year incentive laden deal, but I wouldn’t invest big money in him

    by magicblue on Sep 10, 2010 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

    yes on Fielder

    a 5 year deal would cover years 28-32 for him

    the Vazquez thing mentioned by another poster is ridiculous on multiple fronts

    1) he won’t sign with a non-east coast team because he hates making long trips to puerto rico to see his family

    2) his FB velocity is down 2 mph

    3) He’s considering retirement

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    by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 10:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

    So that I'm clear on this

    908 OPS makes Adrian Gonzalez a difference maker, but 903 ops doesn’t make Adam Dunn a difference maker?

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 14, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Now, Vazquez wouldn't be worth the effort

    His 2009 is really looking like a fluke season, as opposed to Dunn who has done what he does year in and year out.

    The rotation would be harder to fix – the only ready way may be to flash propects at the Royals for Greinke, who it a better pitcher and will only be 27 next year. And, yes, I’d give up good propects – until a guy really makes it in MLB he is a 50/50 bet at best while Greinke is proven as a productive starter.

    by ClarkFan on Sep 10, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I just threw Vazquez out as a possibility

    Kevin Millwood, Zach Duke, Jeremy Guthrie will all be available cheaply.

    Matt Garza and Zack Greinke will also likely be available. Just much more costly.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 10, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

    The Cubs need an #1not another # 2.5 like Vasquez

    I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
    ~Earl Warren

    by lookingdeadred on Sep 11, 2010 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

    They don't

    but what some of us fear is that they will waste money on expensive, multi-year deals that are just band-aids in a lame attempt to make the team respectable in 2011 (see Dunn, Adam)

    I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
    ~Earl Warren

    by lookingdeadred on Sep 11, 2010 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

    You have a problem with the Brunansky comparisons

    Until the Twins traded him at age 28, he played all his home games in the Metrodome. In that period, it was known as the Homer Dome, the most hitter friendly park in baseball and the Coors Field of its day. His power numbers fall with the trade, as his real producivity is revealed by less friendly parks – his OPS at Busch was 123 points below the Metrodome.

    Brunansky’s problem was not that he aged poorly; it was that he was never that good in the first place.

    by ClarkFan on Sep 10, 2010 2:03 PM CDT reply actions  

    Excellent

    Funny, how numbers can be interpreted in a number of different way when two different potential reasons for the same observation (declining numbers by Brunansky). Its likely that Brunansky’s decline was a combination of getting older and moving to a different less hitter friendly ballpark.

    by magicblue on Sep 10, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

    How is Tom Brunansky out of baseball when he’s 32 years old? How? You say “decline”, that wasn’t just a decline, it was a cliff fall. He was brutal, and no, you don’t just go out of baseball by moving parks.

    He and Adam Dunn and many more examples are part of a certain skill set, it’s been proven and shown countless times these players age faster. Once Adam Dunn’ bat speed is gone he’ll be done as a major leaguer, just like Brunansky. Brunansky had old player skills so the sharp cliff fall was inevitable. It wasn’t because he changed parks.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 10, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

    You can say that about any player

    Can he fall off the cliff tomorrow? Sure

    Has he shown any slippage up to this point? Has he ever missed any time with an injury? Was Brunansky anywhere near as good as Dunn is? Absolutely not

    If you don’t like Dunn because he’s not scrappy or doesn’t “Love baseball”, that is your decision. However there is zero evidence in DUNN’s track record to raise any red flags. For every Brunansky or Sexson there is a Reggie Jackson or Fred McGriff that maintained levels into their late 30’s.

    You can’t run a franchise without the nuts to get the best players. Everyone has risk.

    " Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

    by aaronb on Sep 10, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

    I swear, everything is so cut and dry with you

    Despite evidence to the contrary. Not all players with “old player skills” have the same trajectory of decline or decline at the exact same rate as Brunansky. What about Frank Thomas, he was still OPSing near .900 till he was 38. Why isn’t he a possible comparison to Dunn?

    You’ve provided one plausible reason for ADunn’s declining walk rate? I provided another one above. Dunn has been more aggressive at the plate (more swings in and out of the strike zone) the last 2 seasons because he has Ryan Zimmerman batting in front of him (i.e., more chances to drive in runs).

    Where is this definitive study that shows that declining walks and K:BB ratio to be the most accurate predictor of continued decline? Without that type of study, its just speculation that is supported by two pieces of data.

    Sure there’s a chance Dunn declines like Brunansky, there’s also a chance that he ages like Frank Thomas and goes down in history as one of the top 20 clean sluggers of all time. At the moment, with Dunn’s limited injury history and his consistent performance, I’m inclined to believe the latter.

    by magicblue on Sep 10, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

    Good God

    YES, of course there are examples of players with that skill set that continued a good career. Nowhere, not once, did I ever say there was no way I wanted Dunn on the Cubs. I would be shitting my pants if they got him on a 2 year deal with a couple of options.

    But that isn’t likely to happen, he’s prolly going to get a 4 year huge deal. And for a team that isn’t close to contention that isn’t a wise investment.

    By the way, Frank Thomas isn’t a good example, he was usually a good ba guy.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 10, 2010 11:01 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

    he also was not too good with the glove

    which we would want Dunn to be playing !b. Unlike the Sox/Jays/A’s we cannot DH Dunn. We have to look at his fielding as well as his bat when making a deal. IMHO his defense is not good enough (imaging him trying to dig Castro who has enough errors as it is)

    Chronologically inept since 2060
    "I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
    Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
    Wrigster A: Theriot

    by Cubbie-Tim on Sep 11, 2010 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

    Brunansky was out because he was never that good in the first place

    His “decline” started at 28 and, wonder of wonders, coincides with losing the Homer Dome as his home park.

    by ClarkFan on Sep 14, 2010 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

    The homer dome had nothing to do with it though. That ballpark probably should’ve had the opposite effect.

    by Bad Midget on Sep 21, 2010 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

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