25 for 25: Cubs
by Solanus on Aug 5, 2010 12:53 PM CDT
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PrintI am actually a St. Louis Cardinals fan, but over the past few months I've been working on a roster for each franchise in the National League, composed of players over the last 25 years. The way this works is that I pick one player from each season and I have to fill out an entire roster (2 catchers, 2 infielders at each position, 6 total outfielders, 5 starting pitchers, 4 relievers). I can't take more than one player for each year, I have to take one player each season even in the bad years, and I can't use the same player for multiple positions. If a player played the majority of his games at one position, I can't use that season for another position even if he's played it before. And I used basically minimums of 60 innings or 250 PA's (prorated for strike seasons).
The interesting part with this are the decisions that have to be made, whether it is, "Dang there are some really nice outfielder seasons to choose from, who gets left out?", or, "Does this team even have two decent catchers in a 25-year span?", or, "This guy had so many great years - which one do I choose?" Sometimes a great year gets left out, sometimes a fluke, partial season gets tabbed for the team.
I actually posted the entire NL East, NL West and NL Central on the SB Nation site Viva El Birdos, as well as a fully researched extended version for the Cardinals from 1910 to 1934 and (eventually) a post just like this at all of the other NL sites. You're welcome to pick apart my choices and make suggestions of your own. I'm looking forward to hearing from everybody.
P.S. After completing the whole process and receiving comments last week, I realized that I should have utilized both BP's WARP1 and B-R's WAR numbers instead of just WARP1 along with Win Shares and OPS+/ERA+. (Fangraphs' WAR numbers only go back to 2002, so that would not have helped.) There were a couple players with differences of 2+ wins, so there might be a couple head-scratchers. My apologies.
C – Jody Davis (1986), Rick Wilkins (1993)
1B – Mark Grace (1999), Derrek Lee (2005)
2B – Ryne Sandberg (1991), Mark Bellhorn (2002)
3B – Kevin Orie (1997), Aramis Ramirez (2008)
SS – Shawon Dunston (1989), Ricky Gutierrez (2000)
OF – Andre Dawson (1987), Luis Gonzalez (1995), Henry Rodriguez (1998), Sammy Sosa (2001), Moises Alou (2004), Kosuke Fukudome (2009)
SP – Rick Sutcliffe (1988), Greg Maddux (1992), Steve Trachsel (1994), Mark Prior (2003), Carlos Zambrano (2006)
RP – Lee Smith (1985), Paul Assenmacher (1990), Turk Wendell (1996), Carlos Marmol (2007)
Notable excpetions: Geovany Soto (2008), Mark DeRosa (2008), Dwight Smith (1989), Alfonso Soriano (2007), Mike Morgan (1992), Jon Lieber (2001), Matt Clement (2002), Kerry Wood (2003), Ryan Dempster (2008), LaTroy Hawkins (2004)
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Cool...
I’ve always felt Wilkins’ 1993 season is overlooked…
Questions: Why is Fukudome’s 2009 on there? There has to have been a Cub outfielder who’s had a better season than that. Can’t you just say Marlon Byrd’s 2010 is the 6th?
Also, no love for Chuch McElroy at RP? Or Randy Myers for that matter, the dude had 53 saves in ‘93, but I guess his 1.6 WAR wasn’t good enough.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Jerome Walton's 1989 season would also be in there for a sixth outfielder.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Out of curiosity
Other than ROY, why would you pick Jerome Walton over Dwight Smith in 1989? Smith put up better numbers in less playing time; WAR gives him an extra win, WARP1 over two-and-a-half.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
Smith was a platoon player.
Walton played (almost) every day and was a far better defender.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Dwight Smith/Lloyd McClendon
That was a good platoon for the Cubs in left field after Mitch Webster got hurt and lost his job.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Webster, Walton, and Dawson
That whole outfield had injuries that season in 1989.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Relievers don't get a lot of respect
Not that I don’t appreciate relievers; it’s just that I tended to use the bullpen to fill in gaps. Myers gets overruled by Wilkins, as you pointed out earlier, and McElroy’s ‘91 gets stomped on by Sandberg. That’s just the way it goes.
As for Fukudome, the options for ‘09 aren’t great. He had the highest WARP1 last year. And looking over the WAR list, Lee is much better in ‘05, Lilly, Wells & Dempster aren’t that great, and Zambrano is already on the team in ‘06. The next position player on the list is Jeff Baker. There’s no decent alternative and his numbers aren’t that bad, certainly to an outsider. I’m sure there’s a lot of (ir)rational annoyance toward him, but he’s the best possible option.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
Oh, yeah, I forgot it was one player per season...my bad.
Makes sense.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Also,
couldn’t you have just as well used Sandberg’s 1990 over Assenmacher…thus allowing McElroy or Assenmacher to be the guy in 1991? I guess it is a coin-flip in 1990-91 and Sandberg and Assenmacher are interchangeable.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Sandberg hit 40 HRs in 1990 and 26 in '91.
Seems like his 1990 season was far superior.
It was.
He led the league in runs, HR and total bases. Might have been MVP if the Cubs had a better season.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sandberg question for you, Al ...
what happened to Sandberg in 1987? I’m too young to remember, but his numbers that year were pretty lousy.
His mustache?
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
His average dropped to .264.
He also missed a lot of games. I wonder if he was hurt.
'87 was weak for him,
despite that, he was on the All-Star team, well at least in the RBI Baseball NES game.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Probably, I was born in '84 so I'm not old
enough to know that without looking it up, but I’d assume he did, he was a popular player among the fans.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I was born in '80, so I don't really remember much until '89-'90.
But I know he started until ’93.
yeah looked it up
1984-1993 was an all-star each year, not sure how many he started, but probably a lot.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I bet he started every year but '84.
But that’s just a guess.
Why was Joe Morgan still around
in ’84? .
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Ha, no.
Sandberg didn’t really have a breakout season until ‘84, so fan voting for him in the first half of that season probably wasn’t all that big.
Morgan was still around in '84,
I can’t believe it, he was with Oakland. His final season. His last all-star game was in 1979.
According to Wikipedia, Sandberg did start the AS Game in ’84 too.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
He was the defending NL MVP in '85, and he wasn't the all-star starting 2B.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Aug 5, 2010 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Tommy Herr started the 1985 all star game.
It’s stupid, but it happened.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Aug 5, 2010 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Herr had a big year in '85
in all fairness:
.302 AVG 8HR 110RBI.
A pedestrian OPS of .795, but did have 13 SacFlys. 31 SB, OPS+ of 123…6.1 WAR
5th in the MVP voting, a very strong season from Herr.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Sandberg also had a nice year in '85
and coming off of an MVP season, you’d think he’d start based on that alone…but you never know.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
He Was Hurt
about the same time Dunston got hurt, so the Cubs had a keystone combination of Paul Noce at second and Mike Brumley at short (not exactly Whitaker and Trammell).
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Dunston and Sandberg
Dunston missed a lot more time than Sandberg, so the Cubs had a keystone combination of Sandberg and Paul Noce for a while.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
In 1987...
here’s what I’m talking about…
http://www.unlikelymoose.com/images/more/sandberg/sandberg_moustache_640_05.jpg
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
With a mustache that bad...
…he deserved to have a down season.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Yeah maybe...
…that was a sick 3 year stretch for Ryno:
6.6 WAR in ’90, 7.0 in ’91, 7.1 in ’92 any of the three were strong.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
His '89 was pretty good, too.
Didn’t he hit 30 HRs that year?
Yes he did.
Take out a relatively weak ‘86 and ’87 from Ryno and you’re looking at a 7 year stretch of elite performance, if he had stronger years in ‘86-’87 it would have been a 9 year run. I guess that’s why he’s in the Hall of Fame.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
He's not on the team
But he did put up pretty solid numbers that year, at least according to WARP1.
Don’t worry, I got the same response from Mets fans when I put ’93 Bobby Bonilla on the team.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
I'd ask for Soriano to replace Alou
believe it or not, Soriano is a better defender and runner than Alou.
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
Swap
As long as you’re OK with replacing Marmol with Hawkins, that’s probably a decent flip.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
Hawkins actually had a good year in 2004
It wasn’t until mid-August that things took a turn for the worse. And even then he was putting up good numbers, he just had a turn of bad luck that the fans have never forgiven him for.
In September his WHIP was .83, his BAA was .193, and he only gave up 1 home run – and yet he somehow managed to blow 3 saves. That seems like bad luck to me, more than being hideous. But like I said, the fans don’t remember that, they just hate on him for whatever personal reasons.
Let's see.
We don’t remember the wonderful stat line, we only remember the blown saves and the playoff spot missed as a result.
But you’d rather us remember the numbers. Right. That makes a lot of sense.
Actually, I don’t blame Hawkins. I blame Dusty Baker for using him in a role for which he was not suited.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Can we blame both of them?
Actually, I’ll give Dusty somewhat of a pass on using Hawkins. Borowski was hurt, Dempster was still an unknown, and Farnsworth was an idiot. Hawkins probably was a decent choice.
Now, the fact that Hawkins had to be traded before Dempster became the closer in 2005 was ridiculous.
Hawkins just didn't have the makeup to be a closer
But he was also a first-class prick
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. -- Albert Einstein
Agreed on both counts.
But I don’t blame Dusty THAT much for using him. There weren’t a lot of other options.
Hawkins had nine blown saves in 2004.
That’s a lot for a closer on a team that’s supposed to contend.
You’d think that after the first four or five, the manager might try someone else. ANYONE else.
But no, it took four blown saves in the first 34 games (!) of 2005 before he did what everyone else thought was obvious — give the job to Ryan Dempster.
Dempster was a little shaky coming back from injury in late 2004. But he could hardly have done worse down the stretch.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Dempster didn't exactly shine in the Victor Diaz game, if you'll recall.
And I find it pretty interesting that you’re judging Dusty’s actions regarding Hawkins (in 2004) with the benefit of hindsight. It’s apparently cool to use hindsight to judge Dusty, but it’s TOTALLY out of bounds to use hindsight to judge Hendry’s ill-fated signing of Kosuke Fukudome.
It’s also apparently cool to say that “ANYONE” would have been better than Hawkins, but it’s not cool to suggest Hendry be fired without a named replacement.
I’m pretty freaking far from being a Dusty apologist. But I don’t blame him for using Hawkins — whose contract included bonuses for games closed, thanks to Jimbo — down the stretch in 2004. He was the best bet out of several bad options.
I do agree with you regarding 2005, FWIW.
It’s also apparently cool to say that "ANYONE" would have been better than Hawkins, but it’s not cool to suggest Hendry be fired without a named replacement.
Oh, come on. The “anyones” who could have replaced Hawkins were a finite group of about six pitchers. That’s not anywhere close to the same thing as the Hendry-bashing.
Same thing with comparing this to the Fukudome signing. In fact, I was screaming for Hawkins to be removed as closer in 2004 when Dusty was leading us down that road to ruin.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And none of the six pitchers were better options.
I noticed you didn’t acknowledge Dempster’s role in the Victor Diaz game.
Hawkins was one of the ringleaders of the evil that was that team
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
But you’d rather us remember the numbers. Right. That makes a lot of sense.
Wow you’re snippy around here anymore.
I’m not asking you to forget the 3 blown saves (3 is a number, by the way), I’m just saying that there’s more to the Hawkins story than the 3 blown saves,* and that story is one of an extremely effective reliever who had 2 very very memorable failures in the final week of the season.
Apparently asking for a nuanced opinion of Hawkins is too much to ask though.
- Also worth noting that a lot of other relievers – including Dempster – contributed to those final 2 blown saves, which are the 2 that the Cubs lost. Hawkins left both of those games with the game tied.
In September, you say?
What was it in the last week of the season, you know, the one that MATTERED?
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
True.
But when it was most important, Hawkins failed.
As noted, I don’t completely blame him for that. He was put in a role for which he was not properly suited.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And never once, to my knowledge
Did Baker pull him aside and say, “You know, barking at the media probably isn’t the best way for you to start in this role”
But there is no stat for that
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
No, late season losses count more
because you can’t make up ground
There is no such thing as an ugly female breast
by Worf on Aug 5, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This⤴
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
WHAT!!! NO KEVIN TAPANI???????
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Aug 5, 2010 1:20 PM CDT reply actions
in 1997 over Orie perhaps,
otherwise, 1998 over Rodriguez for sure…
I’d rather have Gaetti’s 1998 on there than Rodriguez.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Gaetti only played two months for the 1998 Cubs.
Probably not enough to qualify based on the criteria given.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You're right, only 180 plate appearances...
…Still had a higher WAR than Rodriguez that year.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
oops, only 147 apparently, still...
1.8 WAR as opposed to Rodriguez’ .9 WAR.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Was that WAR for the whole season, or just for his time as a Cub?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
According to Fangraphs just as a Cub.
He had .9 WAR as a Cardinal prior to coming over to the Cubs. The Cubs paid him $170K.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
also, this was according to baseball-reference.com
not fangraphs…
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Oh, boy -- here we go ...
Commence with the naming of obscure Cubs.
I personally wish Leo Gomez would get some love for once. :)
I'll give this a shot.
In taking on this exercise, I was starkly reminded of the fact that we managed to trade Scott Downs away TWICE. First for Mike Morgan, then he came back with Rick Aguilera for Kyle Lohse, then away again for Rondell White. Dammit.
C – Geovany Soto (2008), Rick Wilkins (1993)
1B – Derrek Lee (2005), Mark Grace (1997)
2B – Ryne Sandberg (1990), Eric Young (2000)
SS – Shawon Dunston (1995), Ryan Theriot (2009)
3B – Aramis Ramirez (2004), Bill Mueller (2002)
OF – Sammy Sosa (2001), Andre Dawson (1987), Gary Mathews (1986), Alfonso Soriano (2007), Rafael Palmeiro (1988)
SP – Greg Maddux (1992), Rick Sutcliffe (1989), Carlos Zambrano (2006), Mark Prior (2003), Kerry Wood (1998)
RP – Lee Smith (1985), Chuck McElroy (1991), Randy Myers (1994), Turk Wendell (1996), Rick Aguilera (1999), Bobby Howry (2006).
I’m working from the bedrock principle that certain Cub seasons must be included, such as Hawk’s 1987, Maddux’s 1992, Prior’s 2003, Kerry’s 1998, Ryno’s 1990, and Sosa’s amazing 2001. That said, I think that this 25/25 team is just about right… I’d much rather go into a season with this team than the one at the top— thoughts? No way a “best of Cubs” list should have Orie or Assenmacher on it!
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Assenmacher was solid in 1991-92.
But I’ll take McElroy over Assenmacher. I feel as if Aramis Ramirez should be 2006 and Theriot should not be on the list.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
If you need a backup SS, it gets pretty thin.
Frankly, Castro 2010 will be the starter in this exercise if we do it next year.
Aramis 2004 was way better than Aramis 2006. 50 OPS points better.
BUT, making that swap lets me use Carlos Zambrano 2004, which was easily his best season. SO, you are right, I’d do that.
Aramis Ramirez (2006)
Carlos Zambrano (2004)
Also, I was hugely biased toward players who “mattered” or wre “team leaders” or did something “interesting” in a given year. Hence, Bill Mueller on the squad over Kevin Orie, and Eric Young over Mark Bellhorn. EY had a OPS+ under 100. But he scored a lot of runs and stole 54 bases, and he’s a lot of what I remember from that year.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Aug 6, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Could not agree with you more
about Mueller and Young, I seriously forget that Mueller was ever a Cub…What might have been had he not torn up his knee.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Two guys for 2006
You’d probably end up dropping Howry. Plus you have another guy in the bullpen instead of six outfielders, but that’s your call, really.
According to the numbers, Orie was better than Mueller in both hitting and fielding. I just think that no one can justify in their mind that he was better. Hell, he was the best third baseman that you had, other than Ramirez obviously.
Also, I don’t see how you can have Gary Mathews on this team. He had a 0.0 WAR in ’86.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
How did he manage a 0.0 WAR with a 124 OPS+ in 1986?
I see .259 / .361 / .478 / .839, 124 OPS+, and, yes, a whole bunch of errors, but a whole bunch of assists, too.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
B-R had him down for -22 runs defensively
BP had him as 7 runs below replacement defensively and a 0.7 WARP1 overall. I just went where the numbers took me, with very little in sentimentality.
This won’t get me any points here, but The Hawk’s numbers weren’t exactly great in ‘87 either. WARP1 of 3.2 and a 2.7 WAR, but I’m pretty sure I’d be blasted out of here if I left that year off.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
85 comments, and still no recs?
I’m surprised at that. I have to applaud Solanus for executing an impressive task, conducting this exercise not just for our team, but for every team in the National League. I tip my hat.
I don't recommend Cardinals fans
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. -- Albert Einstein
I married one
That’s enough Cardinal fan in my life
Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. -- Albert Einstein
It is not racist.
Racism: is the belief that the genetic factors which constitute race are a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.
I believe you are looking to use is Bigoted: utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.
But now it has been rec’d 4 times so stop your bitch’in! :)
(This story was produced by BCPDnewservice. Our motto: If you don’t like this story then suck it!)
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Aug 9, 2010 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Couldn't you have also
used Vance Law’s 1988 for a 3B? Or was Sutcliffe’s ‘88 that good? By looking at the numbers, Suttcliffe’s 1987 was much better than his ‘88, he was a 5.6 WAR in ’87 and won a league high 18 games. I know you mentioned above you’d get blasted if you excluded Dawson, but Sutcliffe had very strong ’87 for a last place team as well.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I live and work in Chicagoland
I can’t afford to leave Dawson off the team, regardless of how much the numbers tell me to do so. They would come and find me.
I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson
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