Spring Training In September? Makeshift Cubs Lineup Beats Pirates
by Al Yellon on Sep 1, 2010 5:50 PM CDT
in Chicago Cubs Recaps
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PrintSun and clouds battled to a draw at Wrigley Field as September dawned, but the play on the field resembled nothing more than a split-squad spring training game Wednesday afternoon.
Of the Cubs' starting eight, only two -- Kosuke Fukudome and Alfonso Soriano -- were in the team's Opening Day lineup this year. Back on that day in April, three others (Starlin Castro was at Tennessee and Darwin Barney and Micah Hoffpauir) were playing at Iowa (and congrats to Barney for making the All-PCL team); two were on the Cubs' bench (Koyie Hill and Tyler Colvin) and one (Blake DeWitt) was the starting second baseman for the Dodgers.
The result was ultimately meaningless, except that it won a series for the first time this year over the Pirates and gave the Cubs a 6-3 record under Mike Quade; still, today's 5-3 win over the Pirates provided a starring role for at least one Cub, Fukudome, whose future with the team has been in question.
Fukudome was 3-for-3 with a walk, RBI and two runs scored; since August 1, in 79 plate appearances, he is hitting .394/.494/.727 with eight doubles, four HR and 13 RBI. For the season his triple-slash line reads .281/.409/.465 -- clearly his best season to date, with an OPS now at .874.
The caveat, of course, is that he has 299 AB and 358 PA -- the classic platoon player. Can the Cubs afford to keep him next year as a platoon player at $14 million? The answer may be "yes", because moving him is likely going to make you eat some of that salary. If the right platoon partner can be found... the answer is "maybe", instead of the "no" it would have been a month ago. Tom Gorzelanny was sailing along when he got hit in his pitching hand by a comebacker, which caromed right to DeWitt, who retired Jose Tabata. Here is the latest update on Gorz's X-rays via tweet from Carrie:
X-rays of #Cubs Tom Gorzelanny's left hand show no displaced fracture but he will have CT scan Thur on left little finger
It may be wise, given that Carlos Silva is throwing tonight for Peoria at Kane County and that he could step in to Gorz's rotation spot on Monday after being activated, that Gorz be shut down for a while, if not for the rest of the year.
Thomas Diamond came in and promptly coughed up the 1-0 lead by giving up a home run to Neil Walker. That made him the pitcher of record when the Cubs took the lead on a Castro single and a pair of doubles. So, Diamond pitched the worst of any of the Cubs relievers -- and gets a "win" for that. So much for individual pitcher "wins" meaning much of anything. Heck of a way to get your first major league win.
The game slogged on, through eight walks issued by Cubs pitchers, until the Cubs added a pair of runs in the seventh, gave one back due to a Castro error (and he'll make that play almost every time once he gets more experience), and Carlos Marmol wrapped it up for his 25th save -- but not before issuing three walks, which is why I was wondering why he was in last night's blowout.
Onward; beating the Mets is always enjoyable, so let's get 'em over the weekend.
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Cubs Win Series!!
I never thought I be would be so happy to take a series from the mighty Pirates! It seems as if the Pirates have played like “The Lumber Company” against the Cubs this season.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I don’t really notice anything different approach wise. He’s hitting for a lot more power. Plus, he’s doing it off lefties
ok
maybe I am the only one this bugs but please, since about half of your comments are replys to yourself usually about a minute later,pause that minute before you hit post…
I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Give him/her a break. S/He's a little short today...
Skip: You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? ... Larry?
Larry: Lollygaggers!
Skip: Lollygaggers.
the thing about him/her/it
is that he/she/thing usually is too short for those height strips when his/hers/theirs is leaving the convenience store
I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
and also for amusement park rides and that sort of thing...
Skip: You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? ... Larry?
Larry: Lollygaggers!
Skip: Lollygaggers.
oh, now I really feel bad
…unless his name is a play on words and he is really tall…in that case he might not be able to ride the rides either for the risk of hitting his head…that would smart a bit
I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
you should feel bad
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
by Fat Punk Kicker on Sep 1, 2010 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess you should feel bad too.
But it’s ok.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
nah, they don't have the same
nah, they don’t have the same posting style….
by LT on Sep 1, 2010 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
It may just be that the team is using him better
And that he was never really more than a spot player who wore out/was overexposed as an every day starter. I doubt that a 30+ year old player would take 2 1/2 year to adjust.
He isn't corkscrewing himself
with his swing anymore. Haven’t seen his do so for quite a while. He looks much more balanced at the plate. Maybe this is why he is hitting so much better.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Castro was in Iowa on Opening Day?
Ummm….
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Pearl, MS
Castro opened up the season for the TN Smokies playing against the M-Braves in Pearl, MS.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
YEah where I was born and raised
IT shocked me to see that posted for a second
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
by Fat Punk Kicker on Sep 1, 2010 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions
A pitcher's W/L record meant something back when they
were expected to finish what they started…
Skip: You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? ... Larry?
Larry: Lollygaggers!
Skip: Lollygaggers.
Right.
Especially for starters. Now? Not so much.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
In my other life as an official scorer I get to decide from time to time
who SHOULD get credit for a win (when the starter can’t go the required 5 innings).
SUCH POWER!!!!!! (Ha-ha) ;)
Skip: You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? ... Larry?
Larry: Lollygaggers!
Skip: Lollygaggers.
And that's another thing I'm gonna change when I take over MLB
If the starter doesn’t go the required 5 innings, then the official scorer will get to choose from all the pitchers who pitched that day, not everyone except the starter.
What if Gorz had gotten hurt after 4.2 innings of really good pitching? It’s possible. And what if everyone after him pretty much blew chunks, giving up runs left and right? It’s certainly possible. But what if the Cubs offense comes to life and scores even more runs left and right? Ok, now I know I’m stretching the realm of reasonableness but it’s possible.
Under current rules, one of the butchers gets the win and Gorz gets screwed. Not fair. Not right.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Agreed.
And even though it would put some out of a seasonal job, I think there should be a 5th umpire whose job is to be the official scorer and onsite replay reviewer.
They would be in contact with the HP ump and could correct erroneous calls after review.
Skip: You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? ... Larry?
Larry: Lollygaggers!
Skip: Lollygaggers.
He just added to his Greatest Hits album
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Strange thing was that they both ended up in outs
The first one went 1-3, and today’s went 1-4-3.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
you forgot the bruised foot vs colorado last year
by jesus christos on Sep 1, 2010 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not nearly as photogenic
It really looks like a fluke injury – and it nailed him on one hop.
http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=6032325&c_id=chc
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Even if he hurt his pitching hand
still better than that hitting his head. those replays are very scary.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Those look painful.
OUCH.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 1, 2010 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Including today...
… Fukudome is 7-for-12 batting third, with three RBI.
Kind of a small sample size. :)
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Diamond was the pitcher of record anyway.
Regardless of giving up the HR… since Gorz didn’t go 5.
Heck, he could’ve given up a two run HR (and the lead)… but would’ve gotten the win anyway, since the Cubs scored two in the bottom of the third.
The general point stands that individual wins are not a great indicator of performance.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
and Al stated that
in a roundabout way – I thought it used to be that the official scorer could give it to the most deserving of the win
I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
They can.
And that would have been the case if Diamond had not coughed up the lead. Had the Cubs led the whole game, the scorer could have chosen any pitcher to give the win to. Most likely, it would have been Maine.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I know the scorer has discretion.
But it is pretty rarely deviates from the standard. I can’t remember the last time it did, actually (though I’m sure it has).
So if Diamond had given up that HR in the 4th instead of the 3rd, thus never relinquishing the lead, I still figure he would’ve gotten the win, even though he wasn’t the “most effective” pitcher.
And for the record… I’m not agreeing with it, just stating that’s what most likely would’ve happened… unless Al has some deep goat information on the official scorer.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
I don't.
Scorer’s discretion is very rare and only in instances like this, when a starting pitcher leaves with the lead before five innings are completed. In this case, yes, I think that if Diamond had been the only pitcher to give up a run, someone else might have been given the win if the Cubs had never relinquished the lead.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Tom lost half of his love life today
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
For at least a week
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
by Fat Punk Kicker on Sep 1, 2010 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions
This is disgusting and inappropriate.
Did you not learn your lesson the last time? This is totally juvenile. DO NOT DO THIS AGAIN ON THIS SITE.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Sep 1, 2010 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
you are right
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
by Fat Punk Kicker on Sep 1, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
For a comment like that,
You shouldn’t have to ask. The content of the comment should answer your question for you.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 1, 2010 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
30
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
by Fat Punk Kicker on Sep 1, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
-gives andyp11 a hug-
It will all be better soon
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Caption
Quade: You see that line there…thats his luck line.
Ump: What line…
I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
OT: Does Fukudome stay in MLB after 2011?
My guess is no. I hope he says for next year and adds to the good career he has put together in two different countries. I have a soft spot for mah boy Domerton.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
I'm confused...
By the “right platoon partner” comment. How would that change Colvin’s role? It would appear that two lefties would not be a platoon. If Dome platoons in right, where would
Colvin go?
by cubbiefanTN on Sep 1, 2010 6:58 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
First base, possibly.
If he can ever get some time there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Who platoons with Dome if Colvin goes to first?
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
That's a good question.
I’m guessing it would NOT be Xavier Nady.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There a couple of guys the Cubs can get on a one year deal..
Reed Johnson comes to mind. Or maybe someone from the minors.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Would love
To see a RJ back as a Cub!!
by cubbiefanTN on Sep 1, 2010 7:14 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
RJ is once again raking LHP this year...
.360/.385/.533 in 79 plate appearances. It wouldn’t be a bad idea.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Johnson would need to stay healthy for it to work
He was out most of July and only has 145 ABs total so far this year.
Not so sure.
His back has been bothering him (again) for most of the season.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
bring back Cliff
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Sammy still lookin' for a job?
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
Reed Johnson's playful nickname 'round here.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Me too.
I’d like to trade Nady myself, it seems the only way to get him to hit well for a season at this point.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the "Colvin to 1B" part of that is in doubt
Maybe he could adjust in ST, but I would guess that the end of the idea for this year means that workouts at first have not gone well.
Just a thought
but I love what Brandon Guyer is doing in AA this year. Yeah he’s old for that league, but maybe if he tears it up in Spring Training he could pull a Colvin and force his way onto the team.
Wish one of the young pitchers
Diamond, Maine, Russell, Coleman, Berg, would step up and become dependable for at least the pen. Diamond had the perfect opportunity to step up and at least throw 3 innings and show he can get the job done today. We can talk about adding a bat at first, but IMO the bullpen needs attention first.
I sure hope Quade will play Wellington this weekend.
There will be FA relieve pitchers.
It ain’t like they are a rare breed.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
I am with you
But you still would like to build a pen within, and not waste money on guys like Grabow. Now I would love for Wood to come back to the Cubs. But you still need arms in the system that can produce because injuries always occur.
I need to see Cashner a little bit more before I am sold on him being a solid contributer for next year.
The Cubs need to decide what they want to be Cashner to be when he grows up
If they want him to be a starter, he needs to be in Iowa next year working on his #2 and #3 pitches. He may be able to develop a #2 in ST and working out of the bullpen, but if he is in Chicago next year, they are giving up on him starting.
Then we'll have another Samardzija.
I think Cashner could be an excellent setup man.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well...
… just like Marmol, I think he’d need some time as a setup man before he became a closer.
He was a closer in college.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He should be in the minors right now working on his third pitch. Right now his only got two pitches: fastball/slider. His slider isn’t a plus pitch. But he can really pitch. Baseball America called him a starter.
He’s got a front line rotation upside. You don’t waste those guys by converting them to relievers. It’s dumb
by Bad Midget on Sep 1, 2010 11:02 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
This is definitely true...he needs to work on a third pitch.
I don’t trust his success as anything right now, the batters seem to be able to watch for a pitch they want with only two possible. If he gets another one that is effective, it makes him a lot more dangerous as any type of pitcher.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I know, but the Cubs are a little light on dominant starters
It would be nice to develop one who costs less that $20M/year.
Cashner was showing three plus pitches
before being moved to the pen. He has the stuff the start.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
I have a couple questions about Cash starting....
Will he sacrifice some ball speed for control? Does he constantly throw a 97mph fastball while starting?
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
He was flat out dominating AAA
A pitcher has much more value as a starter. I think that you give him every chance to succeed as a starter next year (probably a lost year anyway, right?) You will see what you have for the future that way. Also, starting for a year in a year that the team most likely will not contend certainly isn’t going to hurt Cashner’s development into a really good bullpen arm. The vice ain’t the versa on that one though.
"Manny Trillo is coming in to pinch run. You know, for a lot of teams, you would pinch run for Manny Trillo." - Harry Caray
I'm with you...
Getting someone like Wood who can contribute a little is a decent stop gap, hopefully at least. But there is no reason to throw around Grabow money for a vet that isn’t in any long term plans for us when next season will be a “transitional” one anyway.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions
You got Marshall, Marmol, Cashner, and Grabow set for next year.
That’s pretty solid to build around. Just get a good guy or two from FA and fill the rest with young talent. Maybe Guzman can get to where he was last year. DONE
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
I hesitate to say this, because...
… people may think I’m being sentimental. But I think at the right price, Kerry Wood could be a good middle relief/setup man. He’s been very good since he went to the Yankees.
I wouldn’t overpay for him. But at, say, $2-$3 million? Why not?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's what I'm sayin bra....
Get a good arm or two and you cut back on having to use the Bergs, Maines, ect…
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Yeah, I like a lower cost solution that takes some of the pressure off your rooks.
Just keep it at a reasonable level and nothing long term.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly! Bring Wood back if you can get him for that price!
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
Russell should be given every chance
to be a LOOGY. He has been excellent against lefties this year (.229/.273/.386 in 70 AB’s) while putrid against righties (.313/.358/.556 in 99 AB’s).
One problem with those splits
is the under use of the player. Most LHB are followed by RHP. Do we really want him facing a RHB in tight and late situations, You also risk the opposition pinch hitting for their LHB with a righty and then you’re really behind in the odds. I just don’t like pitchers with terrible L/R splits.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
LOOGY = Left Handed One Out Guy
So… it’s a match-up play for one batter, he wouldn’t be facing the right hander after.
I actually really like that pen.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Sep 1, 2010 7:42 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Grabow sucks, he's set for nothing
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
Here's a question:
Would you rather get rid of Zambrano or Fukudome this off-season?
Me, I’d rid myself of Z; he’s just been too problematic for too long. I don’t want my young arms looking to him as a leader or mentor.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Sep 1, 2010 7:41 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Get rid of Z.
For the exact same reasons you list.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 1, 2010 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sure with you on who I'd like to get rid of.
Problem is finding someone that will actually contribute salary for him. Hope it happens.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions
With Fukudome's rejuvenation
and Zambrano’s decent month as a starter, I’m starting to think the best thing the Cubs could do for their long-term financial flexibility would be to focus on unloading Soriano, rather than those other two guys.
Somebody take Aramis' bat off the restricted list, please.
I don't think anybody in their right mind would take that contract on.
It’s simply horrible and going to get worse. At least Z and Dome have value. Soriano I have very few expectations for given his salary.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Sep 1, 2010 7:45 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Soriano's
deal runs through 2014 right? Even if Soriano was in the 840 OPS range, I dont see a team taking him. The contract is a deal breaker.
I would have to say that all three, Sori, Z, and Dome will be Cubs opening day 2011. The economy all around is not getting any better. Cubs would have to take a big salary back if any deal would go down.
Yeah - at least Fukudome is the LH side of a platoon, which is 100+ games
Sorian is working himself into being the RH hitter in a platoon – 55 games/year for $18M. Ugh.
With Soriano's splits
what is he really worth to a team if they guaranteed him 4 years? I’d think $3M-$4M. I just don’t see us willing to eat that much. Best case scenario is swapping another team’s terrible long term contract and hoping for a Silva lining.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Gonna hafta be 80% I'd bet.
More than would ever make sense to pay another team for him. I can only hope I’m wrong about that.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Except Soriano has been playing decent this year after April-May
If you can rationalize keeping Fuku and Z, surely you can rationalize keeping Sori.
Sometimes you have to reap what you sow.
Fukudome!
Looks like I’ll get one more year out of that jersey after all.
Ha!
I was thinking that exact same thing!
"Every day when I show up, I try to provide a little laughter...some days when I pitch it gets pretty funny, too." -- Ryan Dempster, 5/2010
by CaughtInTheVines on Sep 1, 2010 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Shame on you all for thinking Fukudome should be on next year's team.
What we should really hope for is that he keeps this up all season, so that they can get rid of him in the offseason.
Hope a guy plays really good
so you can trade him? You must be a Cubs fan.
by SouthWabashSoul on Sep 1, 2010 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions
How does that make me a "Cubs fan?"
It’s a business. Everyone has declared there is a logjam in the outfield. We’ve seen Kosuke for 3 full seasons (pretty much). We know exactly what we have in him—the Cubs should absolutely not go into another season with him as a starter. Their best bet is to have him increase his value and then sell high on him.
by mic on Sep 1, 2010 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Then platoon him with somebody
It’s simple. He may not be a full time player, but he can get several starts a week.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
He's been quite productive as a platoon player this year.
If he keeps doing this, he might be worth keeping.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's a big IF.
And it’s a short-sighted mentality. This is not the type of player Fukudome is over the course of an entire season, full time or part time.
by mic on Sep 1, 2010 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Depends on the Benjamins
If the team can get $7M in salary relief by moving him, they should do it. $4M would not be a done deal, especially based on his recent production.
He's not worth keeping at his salary.
But not worth trading for what we’d have to pay him. Dunno, either way I think we’re stuck with him so it seems moot to me.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Really
shame on us for what? If Dome can produce at the level he has since the All-Star break in a platoon role, he can be a productive piece in 2011. Sure moving him would be ideal if good value is returned, however as discussed, oh I don’t know 4,072 times, Dome contract is large and will be tough to move.
It's a blog.
Makes him feel better to worry about our reaction, glad he’s got something for himself.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
He has one more year
What does it really matter. He isn’t useless to us at all. He will help this team next year.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
What does one more year really matter?
With his contract, he is much more of a detriment to this team. I think we all have already given up on the 2011 season, but I certainly hope the front office hasn’t—they need to move him, which means saving whatever money they can on him.
by mic on Sep 1, 2010 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Save money for what?
What are they going to use the money for? They already have money and will or won’t use it. There is no point in trading him and saving a little bit of money for one season that more than likely won’t be too much better than this one.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
excuse my terrible writing.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
No, they don't have money--Ricketts is cutting the salary cap.
And what do you use money for? Players? Better players?
by mic on Sep 1, 2010 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions
What better players are you going to get with $4 mil?
Besides first, what other positions are open to get better players? There is none.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
They already have the money and they won't use it?
What the hell are you talking about?
Easy to say.
We need to do trade Fuk, we need to trade Sori. Find a buyer who will give a sizable amount of money in a trade then worry about it. It’s not happening because you want it to.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Well obviously there is a price.
And if there isn’t a buyer out there, then so be it—the point is moot. But they need to explore the possibility of trading him.
man, the Cubs have been and will be.
Do you really think Hendry is sitting on the fence needing some fans in BCB to tell him to look for trades for his bloated, long term contracts no one wants?
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 2, 2010 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Can we please keep BCB world and actually front-office reality separate?
I’m just countering the people on here who make it out to seem like Kosuke is actually a valuable part of this team. I’m not trying to give Jim Hendry a lesson.
by mic on Sep 2, 2010 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Why did Quade pull...........
………..Marshall in the 8th? The PH Young swings from both sides, so why not let Marshall finish the 8th and then trot Marmol out for the 9th?
Instead, Marmol had to chuck 15 pitches in the 8th to record one out.
Had the Cubs gone down today, and I believe the outcome was in question in the 8th, that would have been the end of the “Mike Quade for Manager in 2011” campaign.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Marshall was struggling.
Just about every pitcher on the staff struggled today. Good thing they have tomorrow off.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But effective use of the bullpen bailed them out more often than it hurt
I was pleasantly surprised (and I commented in the game threads) at how each new reliever seemed to bail out the guy before. Minor exceptions made for Marmol and Diamond, but Maine, Cashner, and Marshall all walked into 2-out situations and nailed the door shut on the inning.
From my uneducated seat, it looked like textbook bullpen management. You’ve lost your starter early, but you have a lead – bring in reliever A and let him pitch until he gets into trouble. Don’t let him try to pitch through it – no need – just bring in reliever B and repeat the process.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
If I recall..........
………..Marshall got a strikeout to start the inning, but walked the next guy. Then Cedeno reached on Castro’s error, but Marshall rallied to strike out the next batter. So with two outs, I don’t see why Quade made the move.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
Marshall was struggling yes,
Marmol has been struggling…the whole pen is struggling really. Cash finally gets on a hot streak at the right time. It’s a crap shoot with this pen and saying it determines how you evaluate a manager is definitely overreaching. There’s no way to make all the fans happy with that pen nor should Quade worry about trying.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions
In this case, there was no struggle.
Marshall got two outs via strikeout and one runner was aboard due to an error. Sorry, but in my opinion, that’s not reason to make a change.
Further, had Marmol blown the lead in the 8th, I think Quade’s decision to lift Marshall should be part of the managerial “analysis”.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day." ~ Frank Sinatra
he also walked a guy
and had thrown 23 pitches – generally a good time to pull a guy
I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Whether you think he was struggling or not,
there isn’t a reliable pitcher in the pen at the moment. Marshall and Marmol are more consistent than most of them, perhaps lately Cashner. But its been a coin toss who can pitch well in the pen, the rest of the guys are much worse. What difference does it make ….you want to rate Quade’s ability to manage over one decision with a crapshoot pen. Man. Thank god owners don’t make decisions based on fans.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 2, 2010 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions
that's a good question
but apart from that move, I thought Quade did a really nice job today. I wasn’t at the game, just watching it on Game Channel, but after he lost his starter in the 3rd, it seemed like he kept control of the game nicely. He effectively used the double switch and the pen to give the offense long enough to score a few more runs.
by SouthWabashSoul on Sep 1, 2010 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions
using the double switch is over rated-in my opinion
doing it 3 times burns through the bench. This is something Dusty used to do unnecessarily, and then when he needed a pinch hitter in the 9th inning, he had nobody left. In Quade’s defense, he did it with mid inning with the intention of using the same pitcher in the following inning. Dusty seemed to do it just to prove to everybody that he knew how the rule worked.
by holy mackeral on Sep 1, 2010 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Anyone see the fight in the Marlins vs Nats game?
They are about to show it again on Baseball tonight…
Just watched it.
Wow, is Morgan a jackass. He’s going to get a long, long suspension for that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
yeah really
He seems to not like catchers very much either
by LT on Sep 1, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
And now, back to the Twins/Tigers on Extra Innings.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He deserved to get clotheslined...
Total jackass
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Did he also deserve to get a pitch thrown behind him?
I only saw a video clip on mlb.com (couldn’t get sound). Anyone see what happened prior to this? Previous batter pose a little too long on a HR or something?
Yeah Morgan’s gonna get suspended for charging the mound, but it looks like the pitcher’s got some blame in this too.
Did you notice who the first National was to join the melee after Morgan? Pat Listach came chugging over from 3B coaches box pretty darn quick. I suspect he’s gonna get some time off too. You gotta protect your players, but I’m pretty sure MLB’s gonna say “you’re a coach – you should know better.”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Not only that but he had been hbp a few innings before
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
by Fat Punk Kicker on Sep 1, 2010 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions
He stole 2nd and 3rd
While the Nats were losing 14-3 after being hit by a pitch earlier.
Honestly, I don’t understand why the Marlins were throwing at him. I can understand stealing bases up 11 runs might cause a reaction, but down? Are the Nats supposed to just give up?
Now clearly, that doesn’t excuse charging the mound and Morgan should get a long suspension. But I just don’t understand the code if Morgan wasn’t allowed to steal bases if the Nats were losing by 11.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 1, 2010 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions
He injured their catcher earlier this season
We can't win at home. We can't win on the road. I just can't figure out where else to play!
-- Pat Williams
by Fat Punk Kicker on Sep 1, 2010 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, but they hit him earlier for that
So they decide to throw at him again? How many times?
by Josh Timmers on Sep 1, 2010 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions
they threw at him
for stealing bases in a blowout – 2nd and third in the same inning – and if I remember correctly he took out the SS on his 2nd base steal when the throw wasnt even close…plus the pitcher threw the ball well behind him – no harm no foul
I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Earlier in the series, he ran over their catcher at home plate
and took him out of the game…. when all he had to do was slide.
Not too long ago, he ran over the Cardinals backup catcher at the plate when there wasn’t even a play to be made.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
"The Code" here
Is showing them up after plunking him by stealing bases. Think of it as a playground fight – Guy A has 6 buddies and guy B has 6 buddies. The buddies are there to keep things from escalating too much, so when guy A throws a punch (crushing a catcher) and guy B throws a counter-punch (professional HBP), and the buddies (the code) all intervene to stop it right there, the last thing anybody wants is for guy A to yell, “And yo mama smells like rotten garbage!” (stealing 2nd and 3rd).
That’s my interpretation, anyway.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
But the issue is
the Nats were losing. I’ve never heard of a code where the team losing by 11 runs had to roll over and stop stealing bases. I can understand not rubbing it in, but I can’t understand not trying to get back in the game, especially after tonight’s Iowa/Albuquerque game where Iowa scored nine runs in the ninth to win 15-13.
And the Marlins made it clear in their post-game comments that it was the stolen bases that caused the second throwing at him. Wes Helms admitted it.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 1, 2010 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions
You're assuming that once he was aboard, everything was cool
And if he had reached first via a single or a base on balls or a dropped third strike, you’re right – nobody would have batted an eyelash at his stealing 2nd, 3rd, or home. But he didn’t reach base through any effort of his own. He reached because he was hit by a purpose pitch. That changes things. The message being sent is: “You messed up. This is your punishment.” And since the pitcher was nice enough to plunk him where it wouldn’t hurt (too much), the proper thing for him to do would be to drop his bat and keep his head down as he trotted to first base. And then stay there.
If the guy batting behind him gets a hit, he’s entitled to as many bases as he can get. But stealing in that situation says that either he didn’t get the message or that he did, and he doesn’t care. “Hey, look at me! I can steal!” No, idiot. You’re entitled to first base only because the Nats were nice enough to put you there instead of in the hospital. You do not rub their noses in it.
Furthermore, there’s not a manager or corner-base coach in the league who will give that guy a steal sign, so it was obvious that Morgan was showing the Nats up all on his own. That’s why he got another purpose pitch. That he then decided to test the pugilism of the Nats’ infield players with his face is a sign that the first part of the lesson (“Hey, they’re throwing at me on purpose!”) had finally sunk in, but the second part, the important part (“Maybe it’s because I messed up their catcher. I should probably just chill.”) completely missed.
Maybe someone on the Pirates will now quietly take him aside and explain exactly why he’s an idiot, why he and Listach are going to have to sit for a while, and why he is a very, very crappy teammate for escalating what should have been a one-and-done situation into an all-out brawl which will see suspensions, fines, and worse blood between two division rivals. You can bet that any current Marlin who is on the team next year will be circling the Nats’ dates on the calendar and writing “Morgan” next to them.
And if the rest of the league didn’t have a reason to dislike him before now, you can bet they’re getting all the ammo they need from watching Baseball Tonight. He had better keep his nose exceptionally clean for at least a year, or he’ll be branded a punk that gets his teammates involved in crap they don’t need to be in. Yes, Nyjer – the Nats stood up for you this time because your their teammate. But if you pull that crap again, I’ll bet a few of them will just stay back on the bench and let the umps pull the next infield off of you.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
“And since the pitcher was nice enough to plunk him where it wouldn’t hurt (too much), the proper thing for him to do would be to drop his bat and keep his head down as he trotted to first base. And then stay there.”
Seriously? You make it sound like there’s some [Brian?] Roberts Rules of Order handbook floating around and that every team has a copy in the dugout. Granted, there is definitely a set of unwritten rules in the game, but I doubt it’s anything as detailed and structured as what you’ve described above.
Last time I checked, the HBP doesn’t come with a set of additional instructions, as in “stay the $#@# on 1B”. If the Marlins didn’t want him to steal bases, they either should have a) not hit him to begin with, or b) hit him so hard that he has to leave the game.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It doesn't have to be detailed
All of those unwritten rules essentially come back to three simple rules:
- Respect the game.
- Respect your opposition.
- Don’t be a jerk.
Morgan broke the last two by stealing 2nd and 3rd after getting hit by a purpose pitch. You can argue that he is entitled to steal, but that’s not the way the Marlins saw it. And in the final analysis, that’s what counts.
Surely you’ve been in a situation where you felt you were utterly in the right and you cannot understand why someone is so mad at you. The answer may be that they’re just drunk or that you said something that’s an insult in their home tongue. Or it could be that you really did do something stupid and don’t remember it that way. At that point, someone may have pulled you aside and said, “Dude, this is why…”
In other words, perception is reality. The Marlins perceived a slight, and if you ask anyone in baseball (besides Nyjer Morgan) if they had a point, that person would probably admit that they did.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Well sure perception is reality
but if what you described above is the rationale that was on display in last night’s game, then the Marlins went overboard. They plunked him with a purpose pitch and that should have been the end of it.
So Morgan went and stole 2nd and 3rd. Did he slide in with a flourish at each base, get up, point to the sky, turn his hat around backwards like a catcher, and grab his shoulder? If so, then at that point, the [dis]respect game is back on and he deserves everything he got.
But if all he did was steal 2nd and 3rd, making use of pretty much the only offensive weapon he has (speed) in the normal course of the game, then the onus of escalation is on the Marlins for throwing behind him the next time up. Just because the Marlins felt slighted doesn’t mean they were in the right.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
That's why I made my first analogy about a schoolyard fight.
Tensions are going to be high, and anything you do that doesn’t show you as having taken your medicine is going to be perceived as a slight.
Let me see if I can explain this differently: This happens versus the Cubs. Geo Soto is suspended for violating MLB’s drug policy, so we’re relying on Hill to get us through the rest of the season. Then this kid, who has been a jerk lately (flinging a ball into the stands resulting in fan injury, blowing up a Cards catcher), chooses to knock Koyie Hill out for the season rather than slide and, y’know, score. Yeah, he’s gonna wear one, and he had better just frickin’ take it. But instead of being a good little boy, he decides to run on Welington Castillo. Twice. As a fan, you’d be muttering “F*** that guy.” Guess what the players are saying?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I still don't get this one
“he had better just frickin’ take it”
Well, Morgan did take it, didn’t he? He got hit by the pitch, did nothing about it and just ran down to first base. Why couldn’t it have ended there? I saw video of the subsequent steals and there was nothing outlandish, showy, or disrespectful at all. They were simply steals – the dude is fast, he steals bases – that’s what he does.
This notion that he should still be taking his medicine after the fact is a bit unrealistic, IMO. How long does he have to take it? What if the next batter hits a ground ball – should he be expected to just lollygag to 2nd so the Marlins can turn an easy DP? Are you suggesting a penalty box system, where infraction severity can addressed by duration of medicine taking?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I think you're missing some of the dynamic here
As I stated above, if the guy behind him hits a pitch, everything’s fine. Then it’s about baseball again. But that’s not what happened. Morgan took off on a third-string catcher on the very first pitch after being plunked. That he wasn’t running on a second-string catcher was because he himself had knocked the second-string catcher out for the season on the previous night. You don’t see how that could rankle?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
sure it could rankle...
…but being rankled is one thing. Taking retaliatory action because you’re rankled is another.
Whether it rankles or not, stealing a base is part of the game. If the Marlins don’t like it, they should pick him off or throw him out.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
You can't separate the actions, though
You seem to think that the first plunking meant it was over, or that it should be. In a world devoid of human emotion, you’d be right – the sin would be expiated. But that’s not how this works.
Plunking him (and doing so nicely) was a test. If he’d taken his medicine, taken a lead, and made no move toward second until a ball was in play, then all would be forgiven. The Marlins would have considered the matter closed. Hell, he probably could have stolen second on a 2-1 count – he’s a base-stealer after all.
But the way it worked out, he got his base and couldn’t wait to steal second. On a third-string catcher. Who was playing because Morgan deliberately injured the second-string catcher. That’s rubbing it in. That’s classless. And that’s why he got another purpose pitch.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I can - apparently it's you that can't.
Plunking him (and doing so nicely) was professional retaliation. And Morgan took his medicine by trotting down to first.
I guess I can’t see why or how you expect there to be this expanded time duration of ‘taking it’, i.e Morgan has to stand there on 1B like a good little boy. So first pitch is bad, but fourth pitch would be okay?
You keep bringing up that Morgan ran on a third string catcher who was playing because Morgan injured #2. So would it have been okay if the 1st string catcher were back there? Pretty sure that Morgan was still going to run, regardless of who was behind the plate. That’s what he does.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Maybe I'm being unclear
Yes, those things matter. Base-stealing is seen as a contest between runner and battery. A base-stealer is deliberately challenging the battery: stop me if you can. If, as a known base-stealing threat, you lower the quality of the opposing battery by injuring one part of it, you are lower than carp crap if you are seen to take undue advantage of the freshly-depleted battery.
So here’s the sequence: Morgan runs over Hayes, ending his season. It can be seen as a deliberate act: he has a recent history of running over catchers when not strictly necessary, and if he had slid, not only would he have scored easily, but Hayes’ shoulder would most likely remian unseparated. And he made it clear from his actions that he was unconcerned about the incident. Morgan unapologetically injured a Marlin – the Marlins are going to retaliate. Everyone knows this is coming.
When it comes, it’s as professional as it can be. Volstad delivers an 85 MPH ball to Margan’s belt. There. That’s what you get for hurting our guy. Who was a catcher who probably would have a better chance of throwing you out than the guy we’re forced to play now. Morgan trots to first, and the very first chance he gets, he challenges the new guy. The scrub. The rookie who’s playing in his 8th major league game. Real sporting there, buddy.
Yes, I’m saying that Morgan escalated the situation unnecessarily by playing the game within the rules. He rubbed the Marlins’ noses in the fact that he could steal more easily on the new guy by doing so immediately. He hurt a guy, he wasn’t sorry about it, and then he demonstrated how not sorry he was by taking advantage of that guy’s absence the very first chance he got.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Perspective
Marlins fan explains it.
And from the Nats’ SBN site:
Fans anticipate it…
As the first one happened.
Can’t say they didn’t see it coming.
I think they’ve come to terms with it.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
You're wasting a lot of time and effort worrying about a punk
trying to show up the Marlins constantly. I suggest you go back and watch the footage of the game…more than the short clip that was linked here. Morgan deserved to be hit again. He went in head first in both steals, wanted another confrontation and got one. Didn’t you see how he instantly charged the mound? He was waiting for it because he knew it would happen. And of course after showing what a man he was, trying to punk Florida, fight them, he had to challenge the whole stadium and all the Florida fans. He’s a diva, a punk, and looking for attention. If you don’t see that you aren’t watching the whole thing.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 2, 2010 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Sigh...
I saw clips of all the action on MLB Tonight – and they even showed Morgan’s previous catcher interactions with both Florida and St. Louis. Yes, it’s pretty clear he’s a diva, a punk and looking for attention. I’m not arguing that at all.
But working backwards… he challenges the whole stadium and all the Florida fans because of the fight. No fight, no diva scene. Fight happens because he charges mound because he’s thrown at – again. No thrown at again, no fight. He’s thrown at again because he stole 2nd and 3rd.
Yes, I saw clips of him stealing 2nd and 3rd. He slid in head first, well, because he slides in head first. He was injured early in season and was sliding in feet first for awhile, but once he recovered he went back to head first. A lot of base-stealers go in head first, including the greatest of all-time, Rickey Henderson. Just ask Rickey – Rickey will tell you.
There were no confrontations at the time of the steals. Sure he was probably still steaming and wanting to do everything he could to get back at Marlins. How is that any different from some slugger stepping back into the box after getting knocked down and hitting a homer? Given Morgan’s limited baseball skills, pretty much the only thing he’s got going for him is speed, so he was going use it every chance he could to hurt the Marlins.
The fact that it was a blowout matters very little these days. Old school guys like Brenly and Santo will shake their heads and talk about the good old days when that didn’t happen, but the game is very different now. If you point the score of the game at Morgan’s head for causing this whole thing, you’d be shooting blanks. Besides, the Nationals were the ones losing – they weren’t way ahead.
Again, Morgan is a punk, a diva, and probably a lot of other things best not mentioned here. I’m not disputing that in the least. But this particular series of events should have ended after the Marlins hit him. Morgan stealing two bases – something that he does anyway – should not have triggered further escalation. And without that additional escalation, the fight wouldn’t have happened.
p.s. I don’t like Morgan at all. I grew up a Pirates fan, have always followed the team and was very glad when they traded him. And I’ve always liked the Marlins. So I have no personal vendettas to carry out here. Just calling them the way I see them.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I never thought you had a vendetta in here about anyone.
I just saw a player continuing to try to provoke the Marlins as a who has the bigger one kind of attitude. I thought the Marlins’ announcers had it perfect…each of those incidents he made by themselves could all be questioned and perhaps judged simply competitive, but when he thumps his chest and screams at the fans how macho he is, he showed what his motivation was in all of it. Like him running into the STL catcher on purpose.
That he immediately ran at the pitcher to me showed he was looking for a fight and wanted to show up the Marlins with the game long out of reach by stealing both bases. As you say, without that additional escalation the fight would never have happened. He’d been hit, the issue was over, and he wanted to show what a man he was by being a punk. He just operates in another T.O. world where only he and attention matters.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 2, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
I never thought that you thought that I thought... ;-)
I think we’re all pretty much in agreement with Morgan’s persona – what is it about that last name anyway (with apologies to Mike)? If I could boil down my feelings about all this into one simple thought, it’d be this:
Given the previous day’s incident and the earlier events of the evening, I think it’s pretty obvious that something was going to trigger a bench-clearing brawl. I just don’t think stealing two bases was enough of a trigger, even when set in proper context. That’s all.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Lol
I gotcha and disagree, given the sequence of moves and everything that went down during the game. I understand you saw it all and knew what you were talking about. For me if I had seen the last incident by itself I may have and probably would have disagreed. But I think he earned it. Ah well. I’ve been resentful of the Marlins for all their idiocy when they play the Cubs, feels weird sticking up for them period.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 2, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
See the fun
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11615635&topic_id=8878534&c_id=fla
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
He looks exactly like the punk diva wide receiver that needs everyone to look at him.
I think he has to be extremely pleased with himself. You know he’s telling all his buddies what punks everyone is and soaking up the spotlight. He doesn’t care one bit if he looks like an idiot. Thank god we don’t have him on our team…one headcase is more than enough at a time. If I was on the Marlins , specially after their catcher had his shoulder separated, I’d take up a collection for whatever fine Sanchez got for clocking the little jerk.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions
He sure is.
And mark this as a time I was glad to see retaliation, kudos to Sanchez for his quick response. Shows the Marlins stick up to an egotistical bully and back their own players.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I was at last night's game (sorry for posting here)
I think I saw you, Al…were you wearing a light blue t-shirt with the old Cubby bear logo?
A LO PROFUNDOOO...NOO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NOO...DIGALE QUE NO A ESA PELOTA!!!
GANAN LOS CACHORROS DE CHICAGO!!
Last night?
Yes.
Next time you’re going to be at the park, email me your seat location, I’ll try to stop by.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Thanks.
I was sitting at sec. 205, with a bunch of friends of mine…we eventually moved down to the lower level, since so many people left after the 7th inning.
A LO PROFUNDOOO...NOO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NOO...DIGALE QUE NO A ESA PELOTA!!!
GANAN LOS CACHORROS DE CHICAGO!!
by Azul Cachorro on Sep 1, 2010 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm announcing my instant fandom of the Yankess for the next two months
To see Kerry Wood win a World Series.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
That's one of us.
Nothing wrong with Wood getting a ring, in fact I’m glad for him if it happens. I’ll never root for the Yankees though, ever.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Before everyone relegates Fukudome to a platoon player
here are the stats.
vs RHP .830 OPS
vs LHP .882 OPS
However, his career splits are 100 points less against LHP. It seems wise to play him as often as possible down the stretch to have sufficient data about his future. If Jaramillo has actually turned him around, we may do well to keep him for his final year rather than eating $10M of his salary next year. Just looking at him, he looks to be an entirely different hitter.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Careful - those stats against LHP are a whopping 34 PAs
He was bad enough last year that the team is not using him against lefties this year. And his career numbers are stil only .244/.345/.349. That is still only over 252 PA, but there is a decent case that he doesn’t hit lefties well.
I know what you're saying
and that’s why I mentioned his career numbers which clearly showed a problem vs LHP. But RHP account for 72% of plate appearances so it’s easier to accept a LHB with severe splits than a RHP. However, I’ve noticed a distinct change in Fukudome’s approach at the plate. That’s why I believe it is in our best interest to see what he does the rest of the year and that he gets the majority of starts.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
I'm kind of shocked
that people around here aren’t writing folk songs about Darwin Barney. I love the guy, but I expected an overreaction to his defense today.
Have we gotten realistic or just apathetic?
In the game threads, some were saying he got lucky to get the call at 2nd
After a brilliant reaction to the ball caroming off of 3rd base. If it wasn’t actually an out, I thought DeWitt sold it with the stretch, but Barney did a very nice job just getting his glove on the ball, turning, and firing on target.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I think for me the defense this season has demonstrated
Evaluating their defense based on a season and not a few plays. If you go by a few games you’d be going mad by now with all the errors we’ve seen…gotta take a breath and look at the big picture.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 1, 2010 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Well yeah
I agree with you. I’m just shocked their wasn’t a knee-jerk reaction the other way.
But Barney is a very good defensive player.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 2, 2010 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions
I sure hope so.
I agree with you there are a lot of people that usually do go crazy after a game or two, perhaps they just are apathetic by now as you suggest. It would be nice to finally have a good defensive player come up through our minor league system.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 2, 2010 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Silva got croughed up tonight, five runs on six hits
He was expected to throw 70 pitches, but threw only 50. Let’s give him another minor league start, please
Silva
The 50 pitches thing worries me a lot more than the runs allowed. A lot of times in rehab starts pitchers will throw nothing but breaking pitches because that’s what they need to work on. So they get shelled. It’s no big deal. But if he was pulled early, then that indicates to me that he wasn’t feeling all that great, and that is a problem.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 2, 2010 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions
hopefully Silva gets back to close to where he was
and if not, great job by Jimbo for getting something out of the failed experiment
I Love Larry - Brick are you looking at random things around the room and saying that you love them - I Love Larry
Currently 34,839 on the Season Ticket Wait List - Expected age of being #0: 119
Wanna know how bad it's been this year...
…especially against the Pirates? Check ESPN’s ‘Scoreboard’ – the blurb for the Cubs game reads “Fukudome, Cubs beat Pirates to avoid sweep”. ?
Hahahahah… I guess they just ASSUMED…
Wait a minute... who am I here?
I'm chiming in late on this.
But I’m amazed at the number of people who want to keep Kosuke after one really good month. Admittedly, I’ve been one of the harsher critics of Kosuke and of the signing around here for years. But we need to view what he’s doing now as a way to increase his trade value. Here’s why:
1) We have a replacement waiting in the wings in Tyler Colvin, who can’t play center every day (making a Byrd trade a bad idea) and who can’t play left every day, because Soriano’s not going anywhere. Now, if the Cubs are planning to try Colvin at first, I’ll change my tune, because I could live with Kosuke in right for another year. But do we really want another season of Colvin not getting the playing time he likely deserves in favor of overpriced veterans?
2) The Cubs are in a budget crunch for next season, so a good month by Kosuke might convince another team to take him in a trade and pay a good portion of his salary. Note that I’m not saying the Cubs should pay most of the salary. But if a team is willing to pay $5 million or more, you make the deal. Especially because Colvin is a cheap replacement already in the organization.
3) Good teams trade from strength. Outfield depth is a strength, and the return from the trade plus the potential monetary savings could be used to shore up the bullpen or add another starter.
4) As Al pointed out, Kosuke is a platoon player. Unless I’m forgetting someone, there is no one within the organization who could platoon with Kosuke in right next year, prompting us to sign someone like Reed Johnson. I like Reed, but his signing would mean that we’d be paying $16 million or so (Kosuke, Reed and Colvin’s salaries) instead of Colvin’s salary plus whatever the Cubs have to send with Kosuke. In other words, a potential savings of at least $5 million. That’s assuming, as I said earlier, that the Cubs don’t just give Kosuke away — which I’m NOT advocating.
Put me in the camp that questions whether Kosuke has a good season in him, even as a platoon player. But let’s assume Kosuke/Reed is better than Colvin for a full year. Is he $5 million better? Is it worth hampering Colvin’s development (considering the Cubs are not doing anything to give him time at first)? Is he worth keeping at the possibler expense of improving our AWFUL bullpen?
Don’t trade Kosuke at all costs. But don’t KEEP him at all costs either.
At the end of the day,
The Cubs will continue to try to trade Kosuke for a reasonable deal, if he continues to perform the rest of the year, perhaps they will get a better offer for him than before. I just don’t think any of this here really matters…Hendry will continue to try to trade him, the only question is for what percentage of his salary ..until we know what is acceptable to him (and if we ever do which is not likely) it’s all moot. I agree with you that trading him for significant salary relief is important but if we can’t then trading him hurts the team. We only have ourselves to blame for his contract and the bigger problem to me is we still have the GM here that signed him. Whether or not he was told to make the deal I’ll never trust that Hendry would make the same mistake again.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 2, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
You and I agree.
But there were some people in this thread who were totally dismissing the very idea of trading Kosuke. Which I find patently ridiculous.
Kosuke’s upside isn’t THAT high, his price tag is huge and the Cubs have a cheap replacement who (defense aside) is probably just as good, maybe better, won’t require a platoon partner and is very cheap.
Yes. Agreed.
I just doubt that an August, even September surge is going to impress a lot of GMs. But it will make things more interesting. Hope it happens.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 2, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it depends.
If Kosuke has a new approach at the plate or a noticeable mechanical adjustment, scouts might tell other teams that he’s figured it out. If that happens, another team might be willing to take a flyer on him.
It’s funny that so many statheads say that Kosuke has been worth his contract (or close) but then turn around and say that no team would pay even close to the amount of money for him.
That argument about Kosuke has baffled me
and makes no sense with Sori either. They point out his production and market value and how you should expect X production for this amount of dollars…and then yes it makes me laugh when they agree no one wants him because of his high salary. Yet we should be happy with their performance for the money. Right.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 2, 2010 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
We might be painting with too broad of a brush.
Most of those who defend Kosuke’s salary might not be arguing he’s untradeable because of his salary. But there are some.
The problem with Soriano’s contract is the length. He’s not horribly overpaid this season, but no one would take the deal because no one figures he’ll be decent in four years.
I simply
Have a problem with the argument that Sori is being paid at his worth because I believe the only way you can justify signing him for the amount and length of his salary is if he was to perform close to the level he did with the Nats. He has of course not performed like that and is unlikely to ever approach that level. So you may say he is worth X amount of dollars and then figure in the market value, blah blah blah but it always comes back to we expected an elite player for the contract, and will never get it. And other teams seem to think the same thing by being disinterested in signing him.
It just doesn’t matter a lot to me if he’s worth 60% of his salary or 80%. He’s not worth what we signed him to be. If we had won the WS with him, then sure it all changes. But we didn’t and his performance hasn’t been horrible, yet his exorbitant salary is something to definitely avoid doing again.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 2, 2010 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Honestly, the Soriano situation should be a cautionary tale regarding Sandberg.
Ryno could very well be the best choice as our next manager. But he’s certainly the best choice if the Cubs are making moves based on marketing (other than maybe Girardi). It’s often argued that signing Soriano was done in part to bring the fans back after the 96-loss season in 2006.
The good news is, if hiring Sandberg turns out to be a mistake, he won’t be a $136 million mistake.
He won't get 8 years, either
That’s going to be the killer. By 2014, Soriano may be playing in a wheelchair….
One quibble..
(about Colvin:) considering the Cubs are not doing anything to give him time at first?
Even Len and Bob are openly hinting that the reason we haven’t seen Colvin at first yet, is because of how Colvin has looked in practice. He hasn’t played 1B in a game that mattered since he was at Clemson. I expect we’ll see this in a couple of games late in the season, against non-contenders – and then Colvin will be asked to work on this in the winter, to see if he can play a passable 1B in spring training. Which means he’s not going to be relied on to be the 2011 first baseman.
But for all the complaints about Colvin riding the pine, he’s played in 122 of 134 games so far, and is on pace for around 425 plate appearances. If he takes a step forward, he should start almost every day – but there is such a thing as the sophomore slump to keep in mind. I have no problem keeping Kosuke around for the last year of his deal as a 4th outfielder. Longer term, I have concerns about Colvin’s 3½:1 K/BB ratio. (Compare to Castro at 2½:1, and Soto at 2:1 in his rookie year.)
Dome provides strong defense, and does all the little things right in addition to his league average hitting. Better than average this year, as he’s been rested more. The money is a sunk cost, and would make it unlikely you could trade Kosuke for anything more than partial salary relief. He’s a 4th outfielder, overpaid or not. If Dome wants to go back to Japan (and we get out from the contract that way), I’m okay with that – otherwise he’s more valuable on the club than off.
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Sep 2, 2010 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions
You're saying the return on Kosuke will be minimal, so why bother.
I can respect that. I disagree, but I respect your position.
My feeling is that Kosuke might bring enough salary relief in a trade to upgrade the team at another position, notably the bullpen. With a replacement on hand who will be close to as good, I don’t see why trading Kosuke shouldn’t be seriously explored.
Also, I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that Adam Dunn is our first baseman next year, meaning the only spot for Colvin (barring injury) is in right.
If the Cubs can’t work a trade that makes sense, then keeping Kosuke as a fourth outfielder is fine by me, for the record.
well said. hopefully there is a GM out there that values Dome enough
to pay $4-5 million of his salary, money which could be used for Dunn or more pitching.
by holy mackeral on Sep 2, 2010 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
So you two are willing to go into 2011
with Soriano, Byrd and Colvin as your three starting OF, and pick up a new reserve OF (or two) on the cheap, off the scrap heap? Dubois, Fuld, LaHair are all well past prospect age – they’re negative WAR replacement players. Brett Jackson is probably a September 2012 call-up.
Again, given the experience of Soto, Wells and Rich Hill’s follow-up to encouraging rookie years, I’d prefer a 4th legitimate outfield option for next season, just in case. Whatever you save in dumping Dome’s contract, you’d have to pay out replacing him with a Byrd-type deal (I’d guess 2yr/$8m or so for a decent veteran reserve at a minimum).
If you view 2011 as a rebuilding year, and are willing to roll the dice that Colvin will markedly improve his plate discipline – you can justify handing him the RF job. But you can’t expect to have a shot at contending with an injury-prone LF, a 2nd year RF who may or may not repeat his rookie performance, and no viable option if you need someone to replace Sori or Colvin for a long stretch of 2011.
Could be to-may-to, to-mah-to.. I’m not all that optimistic for next season myself – but teams have come out of seeming nowhere before.
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Sep 2, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Um, no.
“you’d have to pay out replacing him with a Byrd-type deal (I’d guess 2yr/$8m or so for a decent veteran reserve at a minimum).”
That’s just not true. Fourth outfielders can be had for less money and for 1 year. See Nady, Xavier or Johnson, Reed. I could go on …
I think you’re a little too worried about sophomore slumps, frankly. Rich Hill’s second year was actually his best year. Soto was out of shape.
Let me put it this way: Would you rather have Colvin, Byrd, Soriano, Kosuke and (say) Fuld as your outfield with less money to upgrade your bullpen, or Colvin, Byrd, Soriano and Johnson and Fuld? Assuming the Cubs get a savings of about $5 million in the Kosuke deal — and this is all moot if they don’t get something along those lines — then the Cubs save $4 million, even after they sign Reed Johnson or another low-priced fourth outfielder.
And, anyway, it would make sense to get a fourth outfielder who can actually play center. Kosuke and Colvin shouldn’t really be better than emergency options in right.
Okay, so technically Hill had a half-season before his big year..
and then fell completely off the table when fans were generally looking for him to be a big contributor for years to come. But there’s a reason that there’s such a term as “sophomore slump”. There’s enough truth in the concept that you don’t have to explain what you mean by using it. My point is that Colvin hasn’t established himself to the point you can just hand him a starting job for next year, much less the next 5-6 years.
You’re seriously comparing Dome with Xavier Nady? (cue Seth & Amy) Really?
Reed Johnson? I’d take him back as the 5th OF gladly. He figures to come in at around $1m, and would be worth that in the role of LHP masher/PH. But I wouldn’t want to have to play him 120 games in case of an injury, or player crapping the bed. Not as a 4th OF, no.
Whether you trade Dome or not, it really depends on what kind of salary relief you get – $4-5 million, I don’t think that’s worth the effort. if you can get the other team to pay $7-9 million, I’d listen.
And to be a little clearer than how I closed last round, I understand we have different opinions here – the last word is yours if you want it. Cheers, and Go Cubs!
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Sep 2, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough. And cheers!
I don’t think Nady is better than Kosuke. But I’m saying that a fourth outfielder can be had for a lot less than 2 years, $8 million. In fact, I’d argue that Hendry overspent on a fourth outfielder (Nady) when he should have looked through the bargain bin.
As for Reed, there were people on this site who were desperate to sign him last winter. I wasn’t one of them, but I’d be OK with him as a fourth outfielder on next year’s Cubs’ team. Here’s why:
We need all three of our primary outfielders to have good seasons next year if we hope to compete. If one of them gets hurt for a while or is ineffective, the team won’t even be a fringe contender. So it won’t matter if Reed Johnson, at $1 million per, gets 120 starts.
But if those guys stay healthy, or another outfielder is acquired, Reed will be a good fourth outfielder who can platoon with Colvin.
And I totally get what you’re saying about the savings from Kosuke. But I don’t think we should say that we have to get $7 to $9 million without knowing what the market looks like. The Cubs might cure their bullpen woes with two relievers earning $2.5 million each.
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