Tom Ricketts: Next Cubs Manager Must Understand Team History
by Al Yellon on Sep 16, 2010 5:01 PM CDT
in Chicago Cubs News
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PrintCubs Chairman Tom Ricketts spoke today before a panel of Chicago-area sports executives at a symposium sponsored by the Score radio station.
In it, he made some interesting comments about what qualities he thinks the Cubs' next manager must have:"We have to have a manager who really understands what it is to be the Cubs manager, the pressure, the scrutiny you get and be able to handle those periods in June when you lose three games in a row and people start talking about Year 103 of the curse. We have to someone who understands what they're getting into," Ricketts said.
Ricketts also said the team has to have a manager who's "still engaged in being a coach" and is willing to teach fundamentals.
"We're going to have a younger team going forward," Ricketts said.
Ricketts also said he's looking for someone who will be committed to the organization for a long time, possibly ruling out older candidates who may be looking for their last managerial job before they retire.
"I think that we're going to bring in someone who has in their mind that this is their job and their position forever," Rickett said.
Well. While these attributes could be what Joe Girardi could bring to managing the Cubs, it would seem to me that the man they are most likely to describe is Ryne Sandberg -- and not Mike Quade, who, although he has been in the Cubs organization for four years, doesn't have the long history with the team that either Sandberg or Girardi does.
I'm sure these remarks will start up another firestorm of comments here, so have at it.
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I think this line is a bit of a dig at Lou......
“Ricketts also said the team has to have a manager who’s “still engaged in being a coach” and is willing to teach fundamentals."
Not sure it's a dig...
I see it more as a statement of fact…
Ramirez, Fukudome, Soriano and Zambrano. It's the 2010 Murderers' Row of baseball failure. - Paraphrasing Gene Wojciechowski
Yeah, it seems like a dig.
Also the fact that they NOW want a manager who UNDERSTANDS the Cubs.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
I can see how
it could be taken that way.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
I think this might be the most telling part of the statement...
Ricketts also said he’s looking for someone who will be committed to the organization for a long time, possibly ruling out older candidates who may be looking for their last managerial job before they retire.
Ramirez, Fukudome, Soriano and Zambrano. It's the 2010 Murderers' Row of baseball failure. - Paraphrasing Gene Wojciechowski
It's interesting.
But none of the known candidates are last-go-around types anyway.
By known candidates ...
I mean the people we know will be interviewed.
LaRussa...
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I hope Ricketts understands...
…the best way to keep a manager around for a long time, is to improve the organization in which the new manager will be working. The manager is an important piece of the puzzle, but nearly as critical as the organization as a whole.
I understand his thoughts on having someone who understands the Cubs history, but I tend to think it is overblown and by no means should be more important than someone who simply is a good leader and tactician. In a sense, he is almost giving credibility to the long droubt etc, and the right players and manager, will not be derailed by what has happened in the past.
Ricketts has had his year to observe and the onus is really on him right now to make the right decisions if he wants the Cubs organization to start moving towards a Red Sox model as he states.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Quade grew up on Chicago,
so I think he fits the description in a different way.
Hey, it's a new century!
I hope Quade gets a fair shake....
in the process.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Sep 16, 2010 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions
He's earned his fair shake. . .
by learning about what it means to manage the Cubs by actually doing it.
My choices, by rank (not that anybody cares):
Girardi
Quade
Sandburg
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
Carl Sandburg?
Good poet. Lousy manager. Also is dead.
Sandberg isn’t even on your list.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 16, 2010 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Dead Poet Society
A knee-jerk mistake
My bad
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
And since we're here
Thank you
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
I couldn't agree more
Nobody ever heard of Joe Maddon before he was hired in Tampa Bay, and that turned out pretty well. I’m not totally against Ryno getting the job, but I hope the process is not just for window dressing. In other words, has Ricketts already decided that he will veto any name other than Sandberg?
I don't agree with your conclusions about Quade, Al.
What qualifies as a long history? Girardi was on seven different Cubs teams, but he hasn’t been involved in the organization since 2002. As we all know, things have changed a great deal in the past eight years on the North Side. Saying Quade’s four years isn’t enough but Girardi’s seven years are doesn’t make much sense to me.
Ricketts’ comments make me think that anybody not named Sandberg, Quade or Girardi has no chance.
by elgato on Sep 16, 2010 5:07 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Eeeh -- horrible grammar
Sorry, doing too many things at once.
I wonder then how this goes along with Hendry's purported interest in the next manager
Having major league managing experience. Will Quade’s two months be enough for him?
Well that's the question
From where I’m sitting, it looks like Girardi is the only guy who has the resume Hendry is looking for, and while it’s not impossible he leaves NY, it’s wildly unlikely.
Yankees are in a free fall right now
It’s not impossible for Boston to pass them in the Wildcard. If that happens, I’d say it become less unlikely.
When I applied for colleges ...
I really wanted to go to Northwestern. I also applied at Missouri and Oregon.
I didn’t get into Northwestern, and I ended up choosing Missouri over Oregon because I liked the campus and people more.
In this analogy, I think Girardi is Northwestern, and Sandberg and Quade are either Missouri or Oregon. It’ll come down to the interview, I think.
Z-O ...
Can’t do it.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
im a sophmore at the ZOU
North Dakota State baby
by Frozen Toews on Sep 16, 2010 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Just down the road from me...
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
NDSU
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I went to Mizzou and lived in Fargo
The NDSU-Kansas result was one for the century, far as I’m concerned.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're a Mizzou man, eg?
I always knew you were OK. :) (I also applied to Oregon for graduate school, but not NW.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Yup, NBF.
Sorry, for the late response. Headed out soon after making that comment.
Class of 2002.
You're just a pup
I graduated from the J-school in 1987. Saw two of the worst Mizzou football teams ever. Haven’t been back to Columbia in about 10 years, but I hear it’s quite different now.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
It's changed a lot since I left.
Did you work for The Maneater (the student-run publication, for non-MU folks)? I assume you worked for the Missourian.
Don’t suppose you lived in the J-slums, across the street from the J school?
Did the Missourian for two years
Didn’t work at the Maneater, although a lot of my friends had.
I lived in the Mark Twain residence hall (across from the power plant) for a year, then in an apartment on Broadway just west of Providence.
Were you in the J-school?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah. I was a journalism major.
News-ed. Former newspaper reporter now.
I was editor in chief of The Maneater 10 years ago.
Gotta go on a conference call. We should continue this at another time.
Way cool
indeed, let’s discuss this later.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
and Bingo Was His Name-O
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
I'm a Tiger, too.
My alter ego. :)
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I too think Sandberg, Quade or Girardi best fit his description.
Quite honestly I’d be happy with any of them.
♪♫ Take me out WITH the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don't care if I NEVER get back ♪♫ Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer
I would be too.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Eh, no reason to get fired up.
It sounds like the decision has been made, so what’s the point in fretting about it? I’ve accepted the fact that Sandberg is going to be given into the job, all other candidates be damned.
by Danwood on Sep 16, 2010 5:07 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I also see this as a pitch for Girardi or Sandberg.
If Hendry, whose leash will probably be shorter next year, wants to go in another direction, he may be over ruled despite the official word.
Since Ricketts has said he he wants to interview the the short list candidates also...
it’s sounded to me like he has given himself the option of having final say and overruling Hendry.
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"--The Brain
Chances are slim Hendry will outlast the next manager
So I figure he’s very involved in the process.
I agree.
While Hendry is interviewing the candidates, I think Tom Ricketts will definitely have the final word here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Still waiting ...
to learn why four years as a third base coach isn’t enough to understand a team’s history, Al.
Obviously, both Sandberg and Girardi have many more years in the organization.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So you absolutely have to be part of the organization to understand the team's history?
Man, I wonder what we don’t know about the Cubs history.
by Danwood on Sep 16, 2010 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The point is...
… that the two previous managerial hires both said on numerous occasions that they didn’t know what they were getting into until they got here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The guy grew up in Chicago and has been with the organization for 7 years
That seems plenty qualified for me.
Ryne Sandberg spent 15 years playing for the Cubs...
… and four years in the minor leagues for them.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Oh, come on.
No one’s putting a specific number on this. You can’t boil this down to number of years or number of games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
command, knowledge, coaching, understanding, lifer
Long term hire, organizational hire.
Girardi again looks like the top of the list now. Sandberg is right there and has said something interesting identifying the Twins organization as a identity of how the game is played and how a player is developed to make a Twin player….
Girardi could have the same ideas coming out the Marlins and NYY
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Girardi could, yes.
But he is unlikely to be available.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He did...
…but none of those years were as the manager, which is a different gig than playing. He will only know what it is like to manage the Cubs, when has been exposed to it.
IMO, if Sandberg gets the job, his playing days with the Cubs would give him no advantage over a other guys.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Nevertheless...
… he would understand the pressures of being a Cubs player. No manager since Don Zimmer could say the same thing, and Zimmer was a Cubs player for only two seasons and that in an era of almost zero expectations.
Sandberg was a player with two Cubs playoff teams, one of whom was six outs from the World Series. Don’t tell me he wouldn’t understand what a Cubs player would feel like in that situation.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Zimmer's time
as a Cub player was well before the “curse” and “1908” stuff started.
I believe the pressure to win probably dates to 1984. 1969 at the earliest, although I don’t think PK Wrigley really cared enough to put that kind pressure on players.
I think the real pressure to win started after 1984.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 16, 2010 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions
And you could even argue....
that to really understand the current pressure, you have to have been around post-2003. A division-winning season in 1989, and even a playoff season in 1998 are remembered fondly, as wonderful seasons. A division-winning team with the NL’s best record in 2008 is remembered purely as a failure. I think Ryno gets all this, I’m just saying the current pressure cooker really started with the 2004 season.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
I disagree...
…when a player is in the playoffs, he isn’t thinking; “I play for the Cubs, so I have to understand what that means to have success”.
There is more pressure in some markets, no question, but the game doesn’t change.
What is Sandberg going to tell the players? “Remember, you play for the Cubs and they haven’t won in 102 years, so don’t let the media mentioning that get to you”?
Anybody can do that, and it comes down to the manager and players performing.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I think playing for the Cubs played a big role....
in the 2008 playoff failure. Maybe not in the beginning, but I think after Game 1, and especially after the second inning of Game 2, I think they remembered what uniform they were wearing, and panicked. We can’t know that for sure, but that’s sure how it looked as an observer.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
I think this has been stated here by NBF and others....
… including me. The pressure of trying to be the team to break the drought may be too much for anyone to bear. It’s not the uniform, it gets into your head, “Oh, man, we have to be that team, how am I gonna screw it up?”
Players shouldn’t think that, but in certain cases it may be impossible not to.
The team that says, “I don’t care about all that” as one group, and that has the talent, will be the one that wins. I think Ryne Sandberg can be the guy who helps lead that team to that attitude.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
The 2008 team lost because
they had no ace pitchers and no superstars on the field. They overachieved all year just like Lou’s 100+ win team in Seattle and it caught up with them. Those things happen, no one stepped up, no curse, just the way it goes. The front office & Lou blamed it on the lack of lefthanded hitting and went and got Milton which wasn’t the answer.
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
I believe the 2008 team lost...
… because they were ill-prepared for the postseason by their manager. He played the last week of the regular season like spring training, and particularly the last game in Milwaukee — when they had a chance to help decide their first-round opponent. That was poor managing, and I think the team lost its edge.
The LH hitting thing — that, I agree with you.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Sep 17, 2010 7:29 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
I agree with this. I just gotta recommend it.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
And the year before,
they clinched on the last weekend of the season. No time to “play like it was spring training.”
And the result was the same.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yes
That’s why I have never bought Al’s argument about 2008. Lou tried something different from the year before, but the results were the same.
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
Two different teams, same result.
Lou may have blown the 2007 NLDS with his Z move in game one.
In 2008, the team was a much better team and was cruising, unlike the 2007 team. Instead of keeping that edge, Lou helped them lose it by managing like it was spring training and they played like that in the series vs. the Dodgers.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Edge, smedge
IIRC, DeRosa and Soto had some minor injuries at that time, and they got a break because of that.
Ask yourself why any time this franchise faces even a whiff of adversity in the postseason, they fold like a cheap tent.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Gotta be...
…the manager.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Yes, that's right.
Soto and DeRosa needed some time off. The rest of the team should have been playing every day.
And the pitching used on the last day in Milwaukee — when the Cubs could have helped choose their 1st round opponent by winning — was a joke.
Check the boxscore. A joke.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So what?
The year before, you could make the argument that they were rode too hard at the end, and that’s whey they crapped out.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Different year, different scenario, different postseason opponent
Lou screwed up BOTH times, in different ways.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That move by Lou still haunts me.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
Obviously.
But why wouldn’t Quade understand the organization more? He’s the only one of the three who’s been part of the big-league team since 2002.
It's not the organization!
It’s the history and culture. It’s having played here as a Cub. Both Girardi and Sandberg were on Cub playoff teams.
Get it now?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
How about an All-Rick College of Coaches?
Wrona, Wilkins, Sutcliffe, Monday, Stelmaszek, and Aguilera can make it a volleyballocracy – one of them serves ’til he messes up and then they rotate.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Kerry Wood for manager.
He was on three Cub playoff teams.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Sep 16, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stan Hack, Gabby Hartnett, Charlie Root
Hack appeared in the 1932, 1935, 1938, and 1945 World Series for the Cubs.
Hartnett and Root were both in the 1929, 1932, 1935, and 1938 World Series.
They were a lot of Cubs players in the 1906, 1907, 1908 and 1910 Series.
Wood is the only player to be on 4 Cubs playoff teams since 1945.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
So which playoff appearance didn't count?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions
No, I honestly don't.
Quade coached on two playoff teams, and he’s been part of the post-2003 clubs.
Unless you think that PLAYING experience is important, I truly don’t understand your point or the distinction you’re drawing.
OK, I think you're very wrong.
But at least I understand where you’re coming from. And I’ll agree to disagree.
Agreed, then, to disagree.
With the statement that I do think Quade has done a good job — for 21 games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I would say ...
that your interpretation of understanding the team history and Tom Ricketts’ and Jim Hendry’s could very well be different. Just a thought.
yes but Hendry doesn't count anymore
this is a end run around him plain as the W flag on the scoreboard
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Quade
He’s done a better job than Charlie Fox and Frank Lucchesi.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Is it Quade or the absence of Piniella
It is apparent that the team lost games because of him at the helm this year.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Maybe we can do it like the 7th inning stretch
Have a guest manager every day, just as long as it’s not Lou.
I'd like to think I understand Cubs history and culture quite well....
and I’ve never played or coached a single game for the team. I’m playing Devil’s Advocate, of course, only to illustrate the point that I’m sure Sandberg, Girardi, and Quade all understand the history and culture of the Cubs quite well. I think they all get that there is something different about the Cubs that only exists, maybe in Boston, and even not as much there now since they’ve won. You could include Brenly in this too. I think he “gets it”.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Al...
…explain to me how knowing the history of the Cubs would give Sandberg an advantage over a guy like Freddie Gonzalez or any other younger guy who has had success?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
It's not "knowing the history" per se.
I posted above, but I’ll answer your question here. Ryne Sandberg was a Cubs player for 15 seasons. He was on two Cubs playoff teams — one of which was six outs from the World Series. What other managerial candidate could understand the pressure of being there better than Ryne Sandberg, who was there?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
So how...
…can Sandberg make a player perform better with his experience with the Cubs any better than another proven manager couldn’t?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
He can't "make" a player perform better.
But maybe his experience can help a player understand what it feels like to be in that situation. Lou Piniella and Dusty Baker didn’t have that — even though both played in World Series before.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Peter Sellers?
Oh wait, he’s no longer with us. Never mind…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Allow me.
Gonzalez is a fine coach and manager, who I believe will be successful as the Atlanta manager, as he was in Florida. However, in Florida or Atlanta, you have no outside distractions. You have two apathetic baseball cities who simply do not care. Now because players and coaches and managers are naturally competitive people, of course they want to win with or without fan support. But they are able to focus and concentrate on winning much easier, and develop young players easier, because they don’t have 40,000 people, a national TV audience, and a large media contingency hounding their every move and decision every single day. Gonzalez will be a fine manager. But at this stage of his career, he is not ready for the Wrigley Field fishbowl. And if he wins the World Series in Atlanta, you can’t come back with an “I told you so” because there is no guarantee that he would have done it here. Atlanta is the 180 degree opposite of Chicago in every way when it comes to baseball.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Do you think playing experience is more important than 3B coaching experience
In “understanding the culture?”
What else is there, then?
When Dusty and Lou lamented how it was harder than they thought it would be, what more than the pressure of 100 years of failure were they referring to?
That's most of it, I think.
You’d have to ask them if there was anything else.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't think...
…we have any idea how Sandberg would handle the media scrutinity from being the manager.
Being a player is different, because you have greater control/impact over how you can help your team. As a manager, you are relying on others to perform.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
It's not just the media scrutiny.
See my replies elsewhere.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
We don't
But we didn’t know that Lou Piniella would be reduced to saying “What do you want me to do?”
We didn’t know that Dusty Baker would be reduced to walking out on interviews and using his son as a human shield.
The idea that we know how Joe Girardi or anyone else would deal with the media I think is a fallacy. We’re shooting arrows in the dark no matter who gets picked.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 16, 2010 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Here is my problem...
…did Dusty make excuses, or did Lou say his BS because it was the Cubs, or because they were simply frustrated with losing?
In Chicago, the media brings more attention to it, but mayble, just maybe, their frustration came from losing and not having the right mix of players to turn it around.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
It may have been a combination of all those factors.
But I think Josh is on to something here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'd argue
the exact opposite, relative to the needs. 3rd base coaching experience, relative to a comparison to playing experience, gives an individual a far closer understanding of the pressures and situations a manager might face, and thus, presents them a better understanding of the culture and position they are stepping into. We’re looking for the person that best understands the pressure and dynamics that come with being the manager of the Cubs, and playing experience means little. Furthermore, from a socio-cultural development dynamic, cultures can change fairly rapidly.
Look over the quote again.
“We have to have a manager who really understands what it is to be the Cubs manager, the pressure, the scrutiny you get and be able to handle those periods in June when you lose three games in a row and people start talking about Year 103 of the curse. We have to someone who understands what they’re getting into,” Ricketts said.
If I were reading the quote, I think there would be one candidate that stood out from the rest due to recent experience. All that said, I think the quotes that Ricketts made were your standard, expected quotes, telling us very little. Essentially, he said today, we want a guy who understands the pressures of being a manager for the Cubs and someone who will be here for awhile.
while meaning Alston and Lasorda type of tenure
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
so is your one candidate
Quade?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2010 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I think
that Sandberg is probably still the betting money candidate to get the job, although more and more, I feel that Quade is a good notch above him. What I was saying was that I think people are reading too much into these comments. Will make a tag on post below.
You gotta admit... Q loves to win
Quade knows the history of the Cubs and he’s driven to win. He works the young group fine keeping them energized, he scolds the stubborn mules into playing real baseball. Why risk this? Passing up on Quade would be Chicago’s loss.
by brickhousewin1 on Sep 16, 2010 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
How much would you trust Hendry...
…if your family just spent 850 mil, took on 500 mil in debt, you see attendance dwindling and a team with the highest payroll in the NL miss the playoffs for two straight years?
I know how much I would.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I don't see how you can blame all of that on Hendry
sure, he constructed the roster, but he constructed the roster that won 97 games as well.
It’s a group effort, in either direction. The manager, the GM, the players, the coaches.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2010 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't know what I can say...
…I don’t trust the dude, and Ricketts is foolish if he does.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
IF
The Ricketts bought this club and blindly thought they were guaranteed to be in the playoffs this year then we ARE ALL in a heap load of trouble.
If on the other hand they have done due diligence in buying the Cubs and discussed long range strategy with the current GM and are prepared to go forward knowing what they have than good for all of us.
Que NBF rant in...
Three… Two…. One…
Ramirez, Fukudome, Soriano and Zambrano. It's the 2010 Murderers' Row of baseball failure. - Paraphrasing Gene Wojciechowski
I will do it for you!!!!!!
I am NOT Bruce and I say Sandberg is an abomination to managers everywhere!
Hire Joey Cora or Jose Oquendo!!!!!! They will lead us to the promised land! We need an Ozzie Jr Lite to lead this team!
Sandberg is a Cub great and therefore has no business being a manager. I saw him manage once like 3 years ago and I was NOT impressed!
Cora or ELSE!!!!!!
He also didn't give me an autograph
and made me stub my toe because the tears blurred my eyes so much.
Morons Anonymous checks in again
Good work, guys. Like Pavlov’s dog and a bell.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Can we do a joint FanPost when Sandberg is named manager?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd be in favor of that.
What would the username be? NBF n SWL?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Why don't we leave out
the stuff after the fifth word of your sentence. If Sandberg is the next manager, I might just need a joint.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions
And if the Cubs win it all with Sandberg as manager
What would you do then?
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
I don't think I'll have
to worry about that, unfortunately.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions
unbelievable
from the guy who ridicules everyone else for projecting the team and roster’s performance in a negative way
regardless of players you believe the manager will prevent us from winning… wow
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 17, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Then I guess it really doesn't matter
who the manager is. Why don’t you apply? Or me, for that matter?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
It matters, but not as much as you seem to believe it does.
So ratchet down the outrage a couple notches.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 17, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I still think you should change your user name to Not Ryne Sandberg
It would be so Not Funny…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I just might do that, bh
Or at least replace DeRosa’s head in my avatar with St. Ryno of Wrigley …
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions
I have asked you repeatedly to
KNOCK OFF THE NAMECALLING!
We know how you feel. Calling people who want Sandberg “morons” is not acceptable here.
In any case, he was joking. Knock it off.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Sep 16, 2010 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Fun with pronouns
Who is the “he” to whom you are referring, Al?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Hmmm.
I guess you can call yourself names if you want! ;-)
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Reminds me of a Three Stooges short
They were wearing buttons that said A.A.M. – Amalgamated Association of Morons.
I'm wondering if NotBruce would be a good Cubs manager....
I think I’d rather him coach the White Sox, but that’s just me.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
I'd rather manage the White Sox, too
Then they’d never win.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions
If that's the case,
Can you manage the 29 teams besides the Cubs? Possibly all at once?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions
The Other
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
I think this makes clear what was already clear....
if the manager’s name next year isn’t Sandberg or Girardi, something very significant and strange happened along the way.
I've neither the time, nor inclination,
to read between lines and parse statements.
Just hire somebody.
WWOZ.org - New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Station
What does he mean by Year 103?
I thought it was only going to be Year 2.
♪♫ Take me out WITH the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don't care if I NEVER get back ♪♫ Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2010 5:14 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Ahhh, I'm going to miss this TJ when 2011 rolls around.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Do you need a Koolaide intervention here?
Ramirez, Fukudome, Soriano and Zambrano. It's the 2010 Murderers' Row of baseball failure. - Paraphrasing Gene Wojciechowski
2012
The Cubs will win the World Series. Then, the world will end.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
No...
…the world will probably end with two outs in the ninth, when the Cubs are up 3 games to none in the WS and are up by 10 runs.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Not in the WS...
…I believe you have to play full games.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Actually, now that's true...
… after the suspended game debacle of 2008.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You forgot the 0 & 2 count
That’s pretty important; then bang, in a blink of an eye, the game that never ends.
I have PMS & a GPS -- which means -- I am a bitch, and I will find you.
by cub in louies nest on Sep 16, 2010 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Anybody else sick of this fodder until we actually make a move or extend an offer?
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Well, obviously that's not going to happen until the season is over.
I’m just passing along some new info from Tom Ricketts that happened today.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I shouldn't complain.
We got rid of Theriot. It’s been a successful 2010.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Sep 16, 2010 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions 9 recs
one million recs
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I have nothing to add
But my rec.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Must have been a hard decision to rec it or not then, just for a different reason.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions
No, not really
I would prefer they take their time and do it right.
Never thought of that before, but you're right.
So when they make the movie of the Cubs winning the WS, we know who will play Tom Ricketts:
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Hmmm.
Not sure that’s a compliment. Is it? :)
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Taking Care of Business.
Already made. Loved that movie. Mark Grace had fun filming it too I think.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions
He Was In Tootsie
His character had the hots for Dorothy Michaels.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
And Modern Problems.
Always worth a laugh if you can find it.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions
One could theorize that
this is a pretty strong shot across the bow at Hendry. I mean, after the owner gives this description how do you not go out and hire Sandberg?
It could also just be what Hendry has concluded after his past two managerial hires
And Tom is just repeating it.
I would say the guy
that grew up idolizing Ryno is probably the one pining for him, not the one that sent him to the minors for four years to get experience.
Anyone who expects it not to play into
his decision making is kidding themselves, including Ricketts himself. You really don’t think that (at least subconsciously) Ricketts dreams of being the owner that finally got them the World Series while doing it with his childhood hero as the manager, whom he hired? Please.
"Childhood hero"?
Tom Ricketts moved here for college in 1984 — that’s when he became a Cubs fan, and when Sandberg started on his HoF track… hardly his “childhood”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I guess I just look at things differently than you, or most people
I’ve never been one to get too attached to players, so I wouldn’t care if it’s a former Hall of Famer or a guy who toiled away in the minors for years.
I’m sure he dreams about being the owner that finally got them to the World Series with a manager he hired. But it sounds like he’s also a pretty savvy businessman and is well aware that almost all success is a byproduct of following your head, not your heart. I have faith that he’ll hire whoever he feels is best suited to lead this team to that WS.
I don't believe this is a simple as it appears.
Ricketts, with a career in business and management, has probalby taken a business type approach in this job search.
A detailed plan of attirbutes they are seeking (appears that young, knows Cubs history and willing to be a manager/coach are a few of those) and probably a list of things they do not want in a manager. This somewhat of a “list” has probably been discussed by all those in power and handed to Hendry as a master plan of who they want to hire. The person that compares the most favorably with the most things on the list is probably the hire.
As with most lists, it can be constructed to lean toward a particular candidate that the Ricketts family may favor. I’m sure this is a detailed process with checks and balances. I doubt it’s just “Sit down and tell us about yourself” type interview. Ricketts wants to get this right, even though he may lean with his heart to a certain hall of fame player who entertained him in the 80’s.
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
is Girardi in the HOF?
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
On a side note
Nice to see an owner who legitimately cares about the future of this team, because that really hasn’t been the case for say 100 years?
Viva la Cubs Révolution!!!
Not exactly.
William Wrigley, who died in 1932, very much cared about the team. PK, his son who took over after William died fairly young (61), didn’t care about baseball.
Had William Wrigley lived another 10-15 years, the history of the Cubs post 1932 would have been quite different.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Or William Veeck Sr.
PK would have just let Veeck continue to run the team. Instead, he went out looking for another Veeck Sr., which was dumb because William Wrigley got lucky when he hired Veeck, who was a sportswriter with no experience. So PK just kept looking for some sportswriter rather than a baseball man.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 16, 2010 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions
True.
He hired Jim Gallagher, a former sportswriter. Who was really bad at it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
LOL
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll say it again.
If they can get Girardi, he’s the number 1 choice. In that situation Sandberg will be offered the bench coach position.
If not, Sandberg is the guy.
That was easy, what next?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
world peace, ending hunger and poverty
and hardest of all making Sox fans and Cubs fans love each other.
stick with world peace, ending hunger and that poverty thing...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I'd like to say a prayer and drink to world peace.
♪♫ Take me out WITH the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don't care if I NEVER get back ♪♫ Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer
Hey Tom,
any chance we might act like a major market team in the off season? Or are you still broke?
User..name..in..tatters
It seems obvious...
… the job belongs to either Joe or Sandberg. I think Joe will stay in NY until the BossBoys kick him out in 6-8 years. When he’s free from there, I can picture him coming back to Chicago. The Cubs want to make Ryno into a Bobby Cox type person… someone they can market as a manager. I hope Ryno can do this…
Still, I think Hendry seems really wrong for the type of team they are building. Maybe… I dunno. Will Hendry work well with a young team?
I guess Tom wasn't qualified to run the Cubs
He didn’t have experience being an owner.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
Cubs fans might just get the manager they deserve
In which case, the long wait in the wilderness is likely to get even longer.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 5:58 PM CDT reply actions
he can't cook?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2010 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I've been waiting for someone to mention his name :)
<img src=“”http://s955.photobucket.com/albums/ae33/stonemesa/?action=view¤t=DeRo.jpg" target="_blank">
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"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Sep 16, 2010 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll ask you one more time...
how can you constantly insinuate that a manager can make the difference between winning a WS and not winning a WS?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Only if they have managerial experience
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
He would be good.
In fact, there’s already a day named after him in February.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm such a fan
That I give my wife a card reminding her about how great he is.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 16, 2010 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions
There is no correlation at all.
Talent, and being hot at the right time, now that wins World Series.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
because he was?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
But why fixate on it then?
Xavier Nady sucked hard the first half of the season too, but I didn’t feel the need to point it out after every game, since the team was bad anyway.
It's what we do here shoe...
Where you been?
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Wishing things have changed, I suppose
I’m glad that everyone just argues about the next manager these days, since I don’t have an opinion on it one way or the other.
I did but no more than 3 times a week.
Nady bothered me more than Theriot because the Cubs knew starting the season he was still recovering from a major surgery, yet chose to play him anyway.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Sep 17, 2010 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions
so why does that matter
hell lets hire an un-trained monkey for manager then or bring Dusty back, I mean clearly he didnt fail epically…you know, there are certain managers that have several WS rings, but clearly they just stand there slapping asses and eating burritos
It's not a question of that.
It’s a question of lineup construction. Granted, Lou didn’t have the greatest lineup in baseball, but it seemed for the longest time that he was playing favorites, as if Theriot, DLee, and Aramis were set in stone for leadoff, third, and cleanup in the lineup, respectively. And then, he promised lineup changes, and moved one guy one place in the batting order.
What I’d like to see is a Cubs manager who would look at the lineup, and if it wasn’t producing in a certain manner, shuffle things a little bit. Don’t sit with the same guys in the same spots in the lineup when it’s clear they’re not producing there.
Lou seemed unable to make those changes.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions
between being an idiot and not being an idiot? yes.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
The part about being hot at the right times
Also comes into effect. If a team has a great regular season and then gets cold in October, well, that could result in them not being champions. I know this is hindsight, but in September 2008, Lou had the chance to push the Cubs into the playoffs and determine who the Cubs’ opponent would be in the NLDS. Instead, he sat back and the Cubs cooled off in the last week of the regular season, getting swept out by the Dodgers.
Contrast that with a manager who pushes his guys hard into the playoffs and they make it despite having a mediocre regular season at best. Chances are the guys go into the playoffs hot and ready to play.
A team did that recently … the 2006 St. Louis Cardinals.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Lou affected that team's performance in the playoffs
In the very first game, no less. First, he put Zambrano in to pinch-hit in a bases-loaded spot. Then, to add insult to injury, he lifted Zambrano when Z was cruising through the Diamondbacks’ lineup.
Take note of what SWL says below.
managers can do far more harm to a team than they can do good
The loss in the playoffs in 2007 was on Lou, not the players. They were ready to play. Lou, through a couple very questionable decisions, cost them the series.
If he leaves Zambrano in, who knows what happens? But it could have resulted in a very different end to the 2007 season.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions
If you start a game, you don't pinch hit
And he took out Z and put in an reliever whose ERA that year was 1.43. People act like he threw Brian Schlitter in there. Sorry, your reasoning doesn’t wash with me, nor does this logic that if you lose the first game of a playoff series you can’t win the second and third.
Sorry,
But losing Game one could be so demoralizing to the team that they won’t win another game in the series.
If Zambrano was cruising through the lineup, why was the pitching change even really necessary?
Not only that, but the stress of playoffs can make even good elements of a team’s game implode. See the Green Bay Packers’ defense from last year. Was great in the regular season (#2 overall in the NFL) and then collapsed in the playoffs.
So the reliever whose ERA was 1.43 in the regular season could have put more pressure on himself to do well, which resulted in him not playing as he usually played, and the result could be a loss which demoralizes the team to a point where they can’t win the second and third games.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions
And this is what happened in 2007.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions
A lot of this is stuff you're only going to realize in hindsight
I mean, do you blame McCarthy for relying on a defense that was great all of last year? Was he supposed to magically know that they weren’t going to be able to cut it in the playoffs?
But how often has it been with the Cubs
Where one loss causes a multi-game losing streak in the postseason and results in a series loss?
1984.
1989.
1998.
2003 (Florida Marlins series).
2007.
2008.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Fine
That still doesn’t make putting in a set up guy who finished 26th in MVP voting a bad move. Why can’t we simply blame Marmol?
Perhaps because...
Marmol might not have even been in the game had Lou not lifted Zambrano.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
But Marmol was one of, if not the, best reliever in baseball that year
I don’t see how you don’t think that’s relevant
As I said earlier...
So [Marmol,] whose ERA was 1.43 in the regular season could have put more pressure on himself to do well, which resulted in him not playing as he usually played, and the result could be a loss
That usually happens due to playoff inexperience. It was Marmol’s first appearance in the postseason, after all.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions
And if Z had been worn out after the sixth
And Lou didn’t put in Marmol, do you think the excuse you’re giving would’ve flown with Cubs fans? I’m guessing no.
Well, the fact of the matter is,
Z WAS NOT WORN OUT.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not trying to reason why Marmol failed...
I’m saying not letting Z stay in the game was the wrong move.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
And that's fine
My only point was that Marmol’s mental fragility should not have been a factor in whether he should pitch or not.
I agree...
he should have pitch that game….in the 8th inning where he belonged.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions
there were lots of small miracles that season.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I know everyone around here loves to bash Howry
But he actually was quite good two of his three years here (ignoring the strange decision to bring him back this year)
now your defending Lou's move by asking what if's about thing that weren't
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Goodness,
Marmol would not have been in the game had Lou not lifted Z. And Lou did not need to lift Z! He had thrown 85 pitches!
I can understand Marmol was the one who gave up the home run, but come on. Lou should take at least some of the blame for lifting a pitcher who wasn’t tired at all.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure, he should take some of the blame
I just disagree with your assertion that the 2007 failure was on Lou, not the players. As I’ve said many times before, in my opinion, the back to back no shows of Ramirez and Soriano were the real culprits.
That is the case, too.
But how do you know that the Game 1 loss didn’t demoralize the team to the point where they couldn’t win another game?
That can happen in the playoffs in multi-game series.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, I said some, not all of it
And I’m simply not willing to redirect the blame to a demoralized team when guys making 15 and 18 million dollars a year are no shows in back to back playoff appearances.
If they don't perform,
The team suffers. This year is a prime example of that.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions
why is Marmol's fragility something to blame on Marmol
but the team’s “demoralization” something to blame on Lou?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2010 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Page way back up.
So [Marmol,] whose ERA was 1.43 in the regular season could have put more pressure on himself to do well, which resulted in him not playing as he usually played, and the result could be a loss which demoralizes the team to a point where they can’t win the second and third games.
I make this point. Does this sound like I’m blaming Lou? You started this argument by accusing me of blaming a player’s mental fragility, and now you’re accusing me of blaming Lou?
If one thing is clear, it’s that you’re going to continue to argue with me no matter how much I try to prove my point. You’re going to continue trying to make me seem to blame person A, then person B, then group A, and so on…
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
This is what started it for me
The loss in the playoffs in 2007 was on Lou, not the players. They were ready to play
Apparently not Marmol, though.
Because they had to drive themselves to the playoffs!!
The decision to take out Z and put in Marmol … was that the players’ fault? Seriously?
That’s on Lou.
Now the top players on the team (Lee, Soriano) could no-show, but that team had won several games without major contributions from them during that season.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course it wasn't the player's fault
that Lou put in one of the best reliever’s in baseball.
But the way I’ve been reading your comments, I’ve got to wonder what would have to happen for you to consider something the player’s fault.
Umm,
Maybe a wild pitch, throwing error, fielding error, wasting an RBI opportunity, TOOTBLAN, not giving full effort, and so on….
None of that is on the manager. If you had actually read my comments throughout the course of 2010, you’d realize right away that I really get on the case of players who continually do those things, unless there is a good reason why they play that way.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I've seen you take plenty of swipes at Piniella
Search his name on your profile if you don’t remember. Which goes back to what started this whole thing, which we completely agree on:
Talent, and being hot at the right time, now that wins World Series.
Obviously you’re welcome to post whatever you want within the parameters of Al’s moderation. I just don’t understand the massive bashing of a guy who, while I agree should have been fired, was not the biggest problem with this team.
Okay, let me see if I get this straight.
Keeping Theriot at leadoff was not Lou’s fault?
Keeping Lee and Ramirez in 3-4 when they were not producing is not Lou’s fault?
Putting a lineup together that made no sense is not Lou’s fault?
Constantly going to Grabow, even when he had other options, is not Lou’s fault?
Not putting Ramirez on the DL is not Lou’s fault?
Sending Zambrano to the bullpen is not Lou’s fault?
I guess we will have to agree to disagree here.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions
It's true,
Blame does not equal impact.
But Lou did cost us some games this year, with his lineup construction and bullpen decisions. I was at a game where he lost it and the Cubs lost as a result.
This does not excuse the players from not performing, however.
So do we agree on this last point?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Lou cost this team some games, sure.
And the players did as well. To me, there are just larger problems within the organization, and that’s why the constant criticism of Piniella this year while Hendry’s gotten it pretty easy in comparison gets to me into these discussions.
Good point.
Hendry was the one who set up this bullpen, sent Z to it, and has gone with the celebrity managers for far too long.
I agree with everything you say here.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think I'd say Hendry sent him to it
Just that he had veto power that he didn’t exercise. It sounds as though it was Rothschild’s idea, and Lou was ok with it, and so was Hendry. Who in the chain of command is most responsible? It’s tricky.
I think you understand where I’m coming from though. It was like going into a game recap early in the year and everyone complaining that Mike Fontenot is a crappy backup SS because he struck out when he pinch hit, and then someone quietly mentioning that Theriot went 0-4 with 2 K’s.
Yep, exactly.
And those discussions in the recaps led to some fierce arguments.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Indeed.
Same here. All too often, it gets to bashing the other person and name-calling.
I have to say ours was possibly the longest disagreement that remained civil that I’ve ever seen on BCB.
Thanks for not calling me names. This is also due to the debates about manager (see Al vs. NBF).
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 17, 2010 6:20 AM CDT up reply actions
This is the way disagreements should be handled here.
Thank you both.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
everybody
has to have a first appearance tho. Marmol was balls that year. Dominant.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2010 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
It was a playoff road game...
our “Ace” was pitching…
it was a tie game…
Z had only thrown 85 pitches…
Z MADE THE LAST OUT IN THE PREVIOUS INNING
it was a really really really stupid move to take him out of the game.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you're forgetting that this is the Cubs we're talking about...
I honestly don’t think they will EVER win a WS unless they run the table in the postseason. Every playoff loss has always just made them fold like a cheap lawn chair.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
But pressure doesn't mean anything
in the Cubs’ case … right?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Pressure is what you feel when you think you're going to fail.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
So apparently, the Cubs
never will succeed. And that might be right.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait, aren't you the guy that can't stand the negativity in the gamethreads?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions
I can't stand irrational reactions
to what happens pitch by pitch.
Taking the longer view, winning a WS for this franchise might be the impossible dream. I hope it isn’t.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Irrational Reaction = Your reaction to Sandberg as a managerial candidate.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nope
Irrational reaction = handing over the managerial reins of one of baseball’s premier franchises, one whose mission is to win a World Series as soon as possible, to someone who has spent NOT ONE MINUTE in a position of authority on a big-league bench. And not much in the minor leagues, either.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
So the other 29 teams don't share that same mission?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
None of the other 29 teams
are quite like this one.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly why they have to make a hire like Ryne Sandberg.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't think it's that easy
move a guy when he’s slumping, and you might shatter his confidence. Managing a baseball team is much more of an art than a science.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2010 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Why have one at all, then?
Let the players play without a manager, if it makes no difference.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions
and we're the dumb ones?
Managers do have some influence on a team’s performance. However, I believe that (most of the time) managers can do far more harm to a team than they can do good. Lou wasn’t going to get this team to the playoffs in 2010 with these players, but he damn sure made enough stupid decisions to keep them from winning games they should have won.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Well said!
Rec’d.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions
when you make sense like this too often you ruin our reputation here.
That could lead to a lot of pressure.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I myself have been wondering if there isn't another Moneyball-type "market oversight"
when it comes to managers. They’re undervalued based on the premise that they don’t make much difference. But what if the reality is that the ones that typically get hired are just lousy? What if in fact there were plenty of potential skippers out there that possess expert motivational skills and the ability to get every single man on the roster to play hard as a team, but get overlooked because they lack what MLB executives consider to be essential qualifications (eg. having played at the big-league level, having a “tough guy” reputation, having managed big-league clubs before).
No, and I never alluded to or stated that I did.
I want a manager that can analyze the current state of his roster and make rational, educated moves when appropriate.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 17, 2010 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
It's strange how you continually generalize a group you are part of
And then pit yourself against it.
....
he’s in the real Cub fans group.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
So does this mean
That the two managerial candidates most likely to get the job are Dusty Baker and Lou Piniella?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 5:58 PM CDT reply actions
this guy, he is the history
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
Who would play him in a movie about the Cubs' winning the World Series?
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Many levels here and Rickett's Family I hope you read this
IF, if I were conducting an executive search with these parameters and then the job description you told me three possible candidates
A) GIRARDI, no doubt. He has faced the music, the press, still is a coach is a lifer going back to Northwestern U…., has developed younger players. It truly puts the ball in Girardi’s court, through tan indirect communication channel in that Girardi has the option to leave the NYY on his own at the end of the contract. It is also timely after they lost a tough series with the TB Rays.
B) Sandberg is the back up, no doubt he lacks the MLB baseball experience facing the music at this level but fits everything else——including coming back and desiring to pay the piper and dues to get to this position is a lifer and knows the history.
I think if Girardi takes the bait, gets a long term deal it will be up to Girardi to pick whomever is his bench coach. Sandberg would be a great PR move and both would know each other but Sandberg would have to agree to it. My guess is the market place makes that decision. What if St Louis calls Sandberg?
Another level, this was preemptive strike towards Hendry doing something stupid like Quade or someone else…it takes the decision process out of his hands (GOOD JOB Ricketts) as I said not allowing him to offer someone that is loyal to Hendry…Hendry is here as a caretaker role and why I don’t think Dunn will be signed next year. Cubs are reducing liabilities not gaining new ones. If a trade happens like Bradley-Silva trading my bad for your bad that reduces years or $$ somehow than albeit but no adding.
It means Ricketts are in control and also the manager will be loyal to them—-Good work! And nice use of the medium…..
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
forgot to add the last name
Maddux, but he is a wild card w/o experience and only fits with lifer and coaching but that is weak
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
I know plenty of Yankees fans who Joe is a joke handling a
pitching staff. I agree with them. He was lousy in Florida also with young pitchers.
OK, he won a WS with a team of AllStars and this year, well if they fail to make the playoffs and get caught by Boston, which I doubt, he won’t have to worry about negotiating a new deal with the Yankees it will be bye bye Joe.
It's nice to have a little bit more info about how the candidates manage
Instead of just what teams they played for.
by shoemile on Sep 16, 2010 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
The boys on the SCORE are ripping
Ricketts for his comments -
Cause that's what sport radio hacks do...
Ramirez, Fukudome, Soriano and Zambrano. It's the 2010 Murderers' Row of baseball failure. - Paraphrasing Gene Wojciechowski
by Endrick on Sep 16, 2010 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Guess hack radio announcers
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
you mean these guys
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
who's on first?
:)
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Sep 16, 2010 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions
The left fielder's name?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Bud: Now listen, Who is not pitching. Who...
Lou: I’LL BREAK YOUR ARM, YOU SAY WHO’S ON FIRST!!!!!
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I think for making Cubs job sound like the most pressure packed job ever and
for re-hashing the 103 years curse and (in general) for just making excuses already. Said he should just hire Sandberg already and start acting more llike an owner and less like a fan -
It is the most pressure-packed job in sports right now
No doubt about that.
Not sure about the rest of it.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions
more pressure packed than coaching Notre Dame football?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think so
Notre Dame’s national-title drought isn’t as epic as the Cubs’.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, but they only get 12 games...and if they lose more than 2 in a row the Head Coach is crucified....
pun intended.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL
Good point, but I still think the Cubs’ might be worse, because of the futility.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Which college football job has more pressure?
Notre Dame or Michigan?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Good point.
There, the expectation is to win the World Series every year.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
That's crazy.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
It's the Yankees.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
If you fail as a Yankees manager, then you haven’t lived up to past managerial greats. If you fail as the Cubs manager, well, then you’re just another Cubs manager.
Not any more
Not since 2003, I think.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions
By hiring Sandberg, he would only be acting even more like a fan.
PR and stupidity are the only excuses for hiring Sandberg.
"It was a perfect situation for the Brewers," Hill said. "They had a guy up there at the plate [in Counsell] who takes a lot of pride in what he does and he practices those situations, so when it does come up, he gets the bunt down to the right side of the field. They have the perfect guy on first base [in Gomez], who is one of the fastest guys in the league, and they had one of the worst fundamental teams on the field, so it was a perfect situation for them."
by louslovechild on Sep 16, 2010 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions
This would be a good statement if you had any meaningful data or evidence to base it on.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 16, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions
What do you base hiring Ryno on
relative to others who might be in contention.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I have no basis for pretty much any of the candidates
As you and I have discussed before, I don’t a put a lot of stock in experience in this situation. If I knew more about the candidate’s managerial philosophy/strategy, then I’d probably formulate an opinion.
You need a mix of philosophy and experience
In my mind, Girardi is the perfect choice. He fills every criterion.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, but the thing is, no one on here argues about philosophy
Think of the things people ripped Lou for (lineup construction, bullpen usage, having too much sway with the GM (which is bull, but whatever)).
Now, how have the candidates done in similar situations?
Is he a slave to the Yankees?
I believe his contract is up after this season. That means he’s free to work where he pleases.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
True.
But the Yankees don’t negotiate extensions during the season. That doesn’t mean they don’t want him back.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
We aren't sure...
…whether the Yankees wanting him back means he doesn’t want to jump at the Cubs job while it is open. He will be free to do as he chooses.
Granted, I would agree it’s likely he stays with the Yanks, but that could change if he views the Cubs gig as something he really wants.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Maybe.
But I don’t think anyone knows the answer to that question except Joe Girardi.
One thing that works against him: the Cubs job might be filled before the World Series, and Girardi’s Yankees could be in it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Could be...
…but why fill it before the WS if you have a shot at Girardi?
I understand they want someone before the org meetings, but that isn’t crucial and certainly not important enough to pass up on the possible best candidate.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Maybe they already know they don't have a shot.
Or they don’t want to wait. We are all just speculating.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
How would they know...
…they don’t have a shot at this point?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Who knows what has been said in private?
We don’t.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I haven't heard anyone
who thinks that Girardi would take the Cubs job over the Yankees job except Cub fans on the internet.
Everyone says the emotional attachment, but jeez louise, it’s not like Girardi didn’t play for the Yankees too. He was even a teammate of three current Yankees, which he can’t say about the Cubs. On top of that, we all know the Cubs are in rebuilding mode. Why would you want to go through a year or two of hell when you’ve got a chance to win the WS every year in NY?
by Josh Timmers on Sep 16, 2010 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you.
This is the most reasoned analysis of Girardi’s likely thinking process that I’ve seen.
Caveat: no one knows what Girardi is going to do except Girardi.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Very logical...
…and you may very well be on target.
The only reason I give this a chance, is because I don’t think Girardi is your average bird and may indeed be motivated a little differently.
At the end of the day, no one knows what is going through Girardi’s head except him.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The only reason ...
would be if he and the Yankees got into a disagreement over money. Other than that …
I look at it differently...
…as I don’t think money will be an issue with the Yankees or the Cubs.
It will simply come down to whether the Cubs job is one Girardi wants badly enough to jump on it while it is open.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Watch out, LLC
The Ryno-a-holics here will rip you to shreds.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions
As someone who doesn't really care who the next manager is
I’d just prefer if all sides could try and come up with some reasoning for the manager they want hired, instead of just calling a hiring stupid without backing it up. Some do, some don’t.
True enough
But I’ve listed my reasons for not wanting him ad nauseam.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions
That's right, you have.
We know how you feel. The rest of us differ. We may be right; you may be right. If I and others who support him turn out to be wrong if he’s hired, we’ll say so.
Will you do the same if he’s hired and succeeds?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sure
But taking a chance is not something this franchise can afford to do.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, I think it's exactly what they have to do.
Do something bold and different. The same old routine hasn’t worked.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
'The same old routine'
isn’t really that old.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
It's not?
Cub managerial hires in recent years have all been either big-name guys, or retreads with other teams. The last truly original managerial hiring by the Cubs, I’d say, was Jim Frey.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm judging only from 2003
when the Cubs got serious about winning and contending.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions
You can't do just that.
First of all, I believe the Cubs were serious about contending from the time Tribune bought the team.
Guys like Baylor and Baker and Piniella were hired because it was thought they had what it took. Management was wrong about them.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sure, you can
I DON’T think TribCo was that serious about it for years.
Dusty’s pedigree was unmatched by every predecessor since Frey, I believe. And Lou’s creds were even stronger than Dusty’s.
I"m not advocating hiring a 60-year-old. But there are younger, experienced guys out there, too.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions
And Dusty and Lou failed.
Time to try something different.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes
Hire a young guy who has won a WS and won with large and small payrolls. Or hire coaches with big-league experience who have been part of WS-winning teams.
Don’t throw the keys of your Mercedes-Benz to a 16-year-old who just got his driver’s licence.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
In my opinion, your analogy is not apt.
What you’re doing is giving the keys to your car to the guy who just got his MBA in his field with high honors.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I can't believe
you really believe some of the stuff you write about Ryno, Al.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Al...
…I think you have to dig deeper and ask yourself why two every successful managers failed after having some success.
Since they had some success, they both proved they could win with the “cubbie pressure”, but when the makeup of the club started to change – 04 and 09, that all changed.
If Ricketts is dead serious about winning, I hope he understands the front office has to be markedly upgraded from the past years.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I don't disagree with this.
Obviously, hiring one man isn’t going to change the entire franchise around. But it is a start, and can make a statement about the direction, at least of that part of the ballclub.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I disagree...
…and would argue hiring the “right man” would and could change the entire baseball organization around and on a consistant winning track.
That one man could put his stamp on the organization in many ways (not unlike Dallas Green did), but the longer you wait, the longer you stay with status quo.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The last good GM hire...
…the Cubs had was Dallas Green.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Then why do you continue to defend Hendry?
Is it simply that you feel the GM position isn’t that important?
What I'm "defending" him against...
… is the kneejerk bashing of anything he does and the call to fire him without any idea of who’s going to replace him.
There’s plenty that Hendry has done wrong. I admit that. There’s also plenty he’s done right. He’s in the middle of the pack of GM’s. But to read some of the stuff around here, you’d think he was the worst GM in Cubs history.
He deserves one last shot to clean up his mess. If 2011 isn’t an improvement, then yes, I think he should go after that.
Enough for you?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't think...
…Hendry should be the “head” baseball man going forward. My criticism of him has not been knee jerk and goes all the way back to the 04 season (although not on this site).
My feelings have been well documented and won’t go through them again, but the bottom line is this; the organization is a long way from being comparable to others that Ricketts wants to model and Hendry is the main reason that is the case.
After investing what the Ricketts family did, I will be shocked if Ricketts doesn’t hire a baseball president this offseason and my opinion of Rickett’s judgment will also decline dramatically.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Honestly, not really.
Because this year you not once “defended” Lou against
the kneejerk bashing of anything he does and the call to fire him without any idea of who’s going to replace him.
The fact that you think he deserves another shot, well, I disagree with, but I take no issue with you having a right to your opinion. To complain that people are saying the same things about Hendry that they did about Lou, and allow one and not the other, well, I don’t understand.
We can't "afford" to take a chance....really?
I fail to see how the next manager is going to lead the Cubs into more than a slightly better position for the next two years. This may be a point unlike anything since the 70’s when the franchise can most afford to take a chance.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's where I respectfully differ with NBF
I can see this being the case with the Yankees but not the Cubs. The Yankees have their lofty tradition to uphold along with answering to a fan base that considers years like 2001 abject failures. That seems to be more of a situation where a team can’t afford to take chances.
And I wouldn't make a blanket statement
like ‘the rest of us differ.’ There are a lot of people here who don’t want him. And there are even more who aren’t here who don’t, either.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
I have done many polls here, and you’re right, not everyone wants Sandberg. Just stop calling Sandberg supporters “morons”, please.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
...
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, of course I didn't say anything about morans.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I know.
Needed the sarcasm font there.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you need a Venn diagram
Not all Ryno supporters are morons, Al.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions
None of them are.
Just stop the namecalling. Your arguments here are more effective without it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You're a lot more charitable
than I am, I guess.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions
If you want to continue to be part of the discussion here...
… you’re going to have to be civil, at least.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think I have been
thus far, thank you.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmmm.
Calling people “morons” doesn’t qualify as “civil”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Truth
is my defense.
And I"ve been called much worse.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Doesn't matter.
Simple rule: NO NAMECALLING ON THIS SITE.
And saying “truth is my defense” essentially did it again. Just freaking stop.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I guess you'll
have to make me, Al.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you asking to be banned?
Because if you keep this up, I’ll do it. Everyone else follows the rules on this site, you are no exception.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's how I read it at first.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not exactly sure what I'm 'keeping up'
But this site quickly is devolving into the Ryno Propaganda Machine.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Hardly.
Yes, some of us support Sandberg, but clearly understand the arguments behind your choices and others.
You refuse to acknowledge that Sandberg can be a good candidate and namecall those who disagree with you.
I repeat, STOP THE NAMECALLING. I have asked you this dozens of times. There’s plenty of ways to make your point without it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And so what if I do refuse it?
Is it some kind of state law that you have to think Sandberg is a good candidate?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Not at all.
It is, however, a BCB law that you can’t call those you disagree with “morons”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
wow.
I’ve seen you get into some long arguments that got nasty before, but never anything stated like this. “I guess you’ll have to make me?” That’s a lot more childish than I thought you would say NBF. There’s some truth for your defense.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't really mean it
I’m just more than a little fed up with Al’s double, triple and quadruple-standards regarding Ryno.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought not.
It was different than anything I’ve seen you post before.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I think Socrates was the first to say
“truth is my defense”.
I forbid anyone on BCB to drink hemlock!
What on Earth are you talking about?
I support Sandberg. I have made that clear. When have I ever called anyone a name who doesn’t, or not listened to their position?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You certainly do everything you can
to discredit other candidacies.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions
"Discredit"
… very strong word. And not true.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That's a matter of opinion
Whatever. I’ll be very, very glad when this whole managerial saga comes to an end.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I prefer Sandberg,
But I’d like to see this too.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Thinking the Score is important is your first mistake.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Haven't read all the points
but I can’t be the only one that thinks this is much ado about nothing … can I? Essentially, Ricketts said he wants someone that understands the pressure of Cubs history and is willing to stay here long term.
If I wanted to read too much into this … I’d ask everyone to reread the first statement again.
“We have to have a manager who really understands what it is to be the Cubs manager, the pressure, the scrutiny you get and be able to handle those periods in June when you lose three games in a row and people start talking about Year 103 of the curse. We have to someone who understands what they’re getting into,” Ricketts said.
If I read too much into that, I’d say there’s a person who has a leg up on the race … and the last name isn’t Sandberg. Folks, Ricketts specifically points out understanding the managerial aspect of being in the organization … he doesn’t reference organizational history as it relates to playing experience.
All that said, I think folks are reading too much into things. I think these are some pretty standard and generic comments, in all honesty.
What do we know? We know that, the way Ricketts runs his business is to let his people decide. We know that Ricketts is a proponent of objective analysis, and that one of his first key hires was a person focused on statistical analysis. We know Ricketts wants to have a bit more of a “new school” organization than what the Cubs currently are. All those things are more important hints as it relates to who Ricketts might favor, IMO, than these quotes.
by toonsterwu on Sep 16, 2010 6:53 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Who was responsible for hiring Howry again?
That’s what I want to know.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
I love how I post something from a reporter saying that the Cubs want someone with major league experience and people just rip me, saying that it’s just his opinion.
But when Tom Ricketts makes these ridiculously generic comments it must signal Ryno’s getting the job. Yeah, nobody’s biased around here.
by Bad Midget on Sep 16, 2010 7:34 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
But Ricketts can actually hire the person.
That reporter can’t.
♪♫ Take me out WITH the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don't care if I NEVER get back ♪♫ Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer
by katie casey on Sep 16, 2010 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think that BM is also trying to say
that people are reading too much into this. I’d argue that Ricketts comments, if I took them to be an indication of the current pecking order on managerial candidates (which I don’t), would suggest that the leader isn’t Sandberg.
let's parse his comments out
and see which candidates potentially fit …
a) Someone who wants to be here long term. Well, if age is the barometer to make this decision, then almost all the realistic candidates could fit.
b) Good coach, good teacher, fundamentals. Again, all the realistic candidates fit this as well. Sandberg, Quade, and Girardi are known as guys that are all good with fundamentals.
c) “We have to have a manager who really understands what it is to be the Cubs manager, the pressure, the scrutiny you get and be able to handle those periods in June when you lose three games in a row and people start talking about Year 103 of the curse. We have to someone who understands what they’re getting into.”
Let’s really analyze this for a moment. If you want to take these statements as hints of some sort, the first part speaks volumes.
“A manager who understands what it is to be the Cubs manager.” Playing experience doesn’t offer that.
Okay, so that was a part of the overall statement. Reading the rest, one could argue that Ricketts statement actually insinuates that major league experience is critical, provided they understand the organization. He focuses on the scrutiny and pressure that comes with being a big league manager. Let’s face it – minor league managers don’t have as much to deal with. There’s far less data, there’s far less media.
Again, I think people are reading too much into these comments, trying to find clues when they seem like fairly generic comments. Ricketts has repeatedly let it be known that his business philosophy is to hire good people and let them do their thing. Sure, Ricketts will make the final call (he signs the checks after all), and he could obviously pivot on his own business philosophy for this situation, but I’m really not sold that these comments are meant to suggest anything more than, “We’re working hard at finding a good manager”.
just to be clear
of the realistic candidates, after pondering it some more, I think Quade is a good notch above Sandberg for me, although Sandberg is a very solid candidate (just don’t think it’s the right team or situation for Ryno). That said, I also think that betting money is still on Ryno right now.
“A manager who understands what it is to be the Cubs manager." Playing experience doesn’t offer that.
Okay, so that was a part of the overall statement. Reading the rest, one could argue that Ricketts statement actually insinuates that major league experience is critical, provided they understand the organization.
Not necessarily. You are emphasizing the word “manager” here. Maybe the emphasis is on “Cubs”.
Like the rest of us, myself included, you may be reading too much into that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
if he didn't mean manager
he would have said “a manager who understands what it is to be a Cub.”
Right now, from this statement, QUADE leads in front of Girardi.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2010 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions
You're overanalyzing.
It doesn’t mean someone has to have BEEN the Cubs manager.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
and how
does one know what it is to be Cubs manager without being Cubs manager?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Someone who has played here as a Cub...
… at least understands the culture of being on the team.
By your comment, you apparently think Mike Quade is the ONLY qualified candidate.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
no, I don’t have much of an opinion. But it’s a perfectly valid interpretation to suggest that this is what Ricketts is saying what he wants. Whether or not that’s what he MEANS no one knows yet.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2010 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions
actually
I’m not reading too much into it. Like I’ve said, I really think all he’s saying is that they are working hard to find a good manager. I simply said if you wanted to read into it, there are a lot of ways one could interpret his comments.
Let’s play around with the words, though. Let’s say you are right and that the emphasis is on “Cubs” and not manager (doesn’t really make sense considering the rest of the statement is focused on managerial pressures). The 2nd part of the statement loosely focuses on the pressures that big league managers face.
At the end of the day, I really don’t think these comments were meant as anything more than to let the fans know that they are working hard to find a good manager. As I said earlier, if people want to assess something, maybe focusing on the type of organization Ricketts wishes to create would be better. In the end, I think this will be Hendry’s call, provided that he can make a good case to Ricketts.
Not my point at all
those comments are some of the most generic you will hear. How is Ricketts saying that he wants someone who knows what the Cubs have gone through, meaning Sandberg is getting the job?
I don’t really care if Ryno gets hired, seems like a fine choice to me. But the bias of the people on this site is really imminent.
Good god, that quote sounds like it’s describing Mike Quade, or for that matter, any Cub who has played for the team over 5 years.
That quote means nothing, except for the fact that eliminates Eric Wedge, holy crap.
I just find it amusing how a generic quote, which can really be used to describe a lot of people, means Sandberg must be the lead candidate. Again, not hating no Sandberg, just kind of annoying how lot of you people call a good reporter’s story crap, but turn around and say that this is most likely the signaling Ryno’s managerial hiring is just kind of ridiculous.
Let's explain this to you again.
One of the comments was made by a reporter who works in Denver.
The other comments were made by the owner of the Cubs, who will ultimately sign off on this hire.
Now between those two, who has more credibility regarding this story? (Hint: it’s not the reporter.)
Also, I have no idea what this sentence you wrote means:
But the bias of the people on this site is really imminent.
That makes no sense at all.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Let me explain
How is saying this:
“We have to have a manager who really understands what it is to be the Cubs manager, the pressure, the scrutiny you get and be able to handle those periods in June when you lose three games in a row and people start talking about Year 103 of the curse. We have to someone who understands what they’re getting into,” Ricketts said.
mean this:
While these attributes could be what Joe Girardi could bring to managing the Cubs, it would seem to me that the man they are most likely to describe is Ryne Sandberg
How could you draw that rather firm conclusion on a really, quite frankly generic, comment.
How does Tom Ricketts, owner of the Cubs, who probably wouldn’t want to tip anyone off on who he’s hiring, saying something very, very generic = Sandberg gets job
But…. respected reporter saying Cubs want a manager with big league experience = probably not true at all, nothing too it, don’t read into it, ect.
That’s all bias right there.
That's exactly right.
I read a lot more into the comments made by the man who has ultimate call over the hire, than a random beat reporter who doesn’t live or work in Chicago.
You still haven’t explained what you mean by this:
But the bias of the people on this site is really imminent.
Serious question: how old are you? You seem really, really young, and I don’t care for your attitude.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You just confirmed what I said: You’re 100% biased. It’s a double standard. How is saying that a really, really, really generic quote is something we should read into, but a report, from a well respected reporter, is total garbage, shouldn’t read into it, etc. But a generic quote from the owner, who really wouldn’t want to tip his hand, is something we should read into. That’s complete and utter bias. And quite frankly, it’s really annoying when you come on and say that Renck has no idea what he’s talking about whatsoever, but a generic quote confirms your opinion so you go on to post like it’s a fact. It’s a double standard.
You still haven’t explained what you mean by this:
But the bias of the people on this site is really imminent.
Ummmmmmmmm…………….. that I can tell there is a majority of people who are rather biased on the subject of the managerial position? Yeah, it has bad sentence structure.
Serious question: how old are you? You seem really, really young, and I don’t care for your attitude.
I’m twenty five, thanks for asking.
I'm guessing it's a misspelling of
eminent=prominent?
♪♫ Take me out WITH the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don't care if I NEVER get back ♪♫ Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer
I suppose...that is a defination
Still seems like awkward usage. Generally “eminent” would be talking about renown.
Oh well.
I agree it's still awkward.
♪♫ Take me out WITH the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don't care if I NEVER get back ♪♫ Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer
An archaic definition is overhanging.
Maybe he means that? Who knows?
I have PMS & a GPS -- which means -- I am a bitch, and I will find you.
by cub in louies nest on Sep 17, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
There's no way you're ever going to understand this.
So I’m going to stop trying to explain it to you.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You have a hard time putting what you think into words, bm,
but I think you’ve got a really, really good point here.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think the comments eliminate Wedge
One could read into those comments as wanting an individual who has major league experience and will have a better understanding of how to deal with the pressures of being a big league manager, provided that he could sell the leadership on understanding Cubs culture/history.
Now, I really think Wedge is a bit down the pecking order, and he’s clearly not one of my favorites, but I don’t think the comments eliminate Wedge.
I could not possibly disagree more
I want someone that doesn’t give one rat’s butt about 103 years. Couldn’t care less. Has no history with it. Has no INTEREST in it.
The sooner we stop buying into this curse bullshit, the better.
"It's all in the game, yo"
by Worf on Sep 16, 2010 7:48 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
What curse?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions
More and more, I'm disagreeing with the whole premise here
Baker and Pinella didn’t fail, for one. Yes, they failed to win championships, but they got this team further in each of their first two years than any other manager since the 1908 guys had ever done.
And to the extent that they DID fail to win championships, it wasn’t because they were paralyzed by history.
Baker failed because he didn’t grasp how badly his rookie pitcher and his fragile left fielder were shaken by a weird happening.
Pinella failed because he had the absolute worst matchup two years in a row and failed to adjust.
That’s it. Period.
This insistence on history is just a dugout exorcism and blowing up a ball by a different name.
"It's all in the game, yo"
You're right, and that's not what Ricketts was saying.
He was saying the next manager shouldn’t have to hear the same old crap. Essentially, he was agreeing with you.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Any manager
whether it’s an icon like Sandberg or someone that wouldn’t know Ernie Banks from Ernie the Muppet, will hear that crap.
I want a guy that say, “I don’t care.”
"It's all in the game, yo"
by Worf on Sep 16, 2010 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's exactly what Ricketts was saying.
And someone like Sandberg, who played for the Cubs, could say that. (So could Joe Girardi.)
That’s in comparison to Lou’s “Cubbie occurrences”.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
They're not Lou's 'Cubbie Occurences'
They are what they are, much as I hate derivatives of that phrase.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, yes, they are Lou's.
Because maybe another manager dismisses them as they should have been dismissed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
People didn't exactly look at Lou
as if he was crazy when he said it.
Wish I had a dollar for every time I read/heard Lou had been “Cubbed.”
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions
That's the attitude we need to get rid of.
And hiring another guy who has never been part of the organization will get us into the same trap.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Maybe, maybe not
I doubt, say, a Fredi Gonzalez (before his withdrawal) or (dare I say it) a Cora or an Oquendo would fall into that trap.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe they would.
Because just like Dusty and Lou, they truly wouldn’t understand what it’s all about until they actually had the job.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You don't think
that’s been publicized enough for everybody to know about it by now? And you don’t think someone like that might call Dusty or Lou to get some insight?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
No I don't...
I think in many ways being told what being the Cubs manager and the pressure is like is sort of like trying to explain the rush of sky diving or running with the bulls in spain.
You can put it into words and even see images of it, but it doesn’t give the whole experience…
Ramirez, Fukudome, Soriano and Zambrano. It's the 2010 Murderers' Row of baseball failure. - Paraphrasing Gene Wojciechowski
If they understand baseball...
…and have had success managing, I think they would be fine. They would also know about the pressure in Chicago without anyone needing to tell them about it.
People are making way too much of both this need to understand the Cubs (Ricketts included).
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
They would also know about the pressure in Chicago without anyone needing to tell them about it.
Then why did Lou and Dusty both make a point of stating how they had no idea what it was all about before they got here? Both of them had success elsewhere, yet still found the pressure in Chicago far different than anything they had experienced in long managing careers.
It DOES matter.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I can't answer that...
…but I don’t think either of them was saying I couldn’t do my job because there was more pressure than I thought, they were saying they didn’t realize how much scrutiny came along with the job.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Disagree.
I think they didn’t realize the pressures. Both had plenty of scrutiny in their careers — Lou from the New York media. It wasn’t the media scrutiny.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think we are saying the same thing...
…I only added I don’t think the fact there was more pressure than they thought, kept them from doing the best they could.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I'll agree with that.
The difference is, both of them had dealt with pressure in their playing and managing careers and thought they could deal with pressure in Chicago.
It’s not “more” pressure, necessarily — just DIFFERENT pressure that they had no idea existed.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I highly doubt...
…the “Cubs pressure” had any impact on their ability to manage other than it being a pain in the ass to deal with.
If you are a good manager, that won’t dissappear when you join the Cubs and I think Baker and Pineilla proved that by winning early on. The ballon burst because the makeup of the team changed and that is on the GM, not the manager.
Was Torre a good manager with the Braves and Cardinals? Or did he all of a sudden get smart when he joined the Yankees? The truth is, the Yankees organization made Torre the HOF manager he will become.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Part of the reason ...
the talent changed after 2004 was that so many guys HAD to be traded because of bad behavior which, IMO, was directly related to Dusty’s failure to keep the team from imploding in the final week.
Not the point...
…if Hendry recognized the reasons the 03 club flourished from mid-season on, he wouldn’t have built the 04 clubs and beyond the way he did.
For whatever reason, Hendry chose to ignore the value that 03 club got from certain players and the very next year started a trend of mis-fitting parts with very little effort (or recognition) to get back to the ingrediants that brought his club the most success and the closest to a championship.
That decision was his and his alone.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Now THIS is a new one
In 2004, Hendry:
- Upgraded at catcher;
- Upgraded at first base;
- Upgraded in the bullpen;
- Upgraded in the starting rotation.
And now you’re saying he screwed up the team?
This place has gone off the deep end entirely.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
I get what he's saying:
Barrett was an offensive upgrade, but keeping Miller might have been a better bet.
Also, it’s too bad Hendry didn’t find a way to keep Kenny Lofton. I’ve wondered what an outfield of Lofton, Patterson and Sosa would have done.
Let's look at...
…what made the 03 club go on a run from mid-season on:
Terrific at the top of the order with Lofton and Gruds
A good defensive catcher that knew how to handle pitchers
A balanced lineup that was more “scouting report proof” which is beneficial come playoff time
In 04, I would not call Barrett an upgrade at catcher. In fact, he is one of the worst catchers I have ever seen, period.
The top of the order in 04 was brutal and no one could get on base and Dusty had few alternatives to go to. This is why the 04 club would score 10 runs one game and then shut down the next two.
The 04 club didn’t have a proven closer and this bit them big time.
Beyond that, Hendry did a super job building the 04 club.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Borowski wasn't a proven closer?
The biggest problem was that he was injured and Hawkins had to close.
Barrett was an offensive upgrade over Miller/Bako.
It would have been nice to keep Lofton, but Patterson’s return probably had something to do with that. So too probably did Lofton’s relationship with Sosa.
On paper, at least, the 2004 team was head and shoulders above the 2003 one. Yet another Cubbie Occurance, I guess.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
On paper...
…doesn’t win you games on the field.
I strongly disagree with you here. The 04 club was missing crucial pieces that made the 03 club successful and it showed up on the field.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The problem with the 2004 team
was injuries and an out-of-control clubhouse, aided and abetted by Dusty.
In a head-to-head matchup, the 2004 team would be head and shoulders above the ’03 team every time.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Disagree!!!!
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Statistically, he may be right.
But the 2004 team wasn’t a “team”, and they had no leader to stop the bleeding that final week when they blew a wild card spot that was theirs.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You don't know that
until after the fact, unfortunately.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
The skills...
…of the 2004 team didn’t compliment each other and that is why the TEAM performance was not as good as 03 from July on.
Star power does nothing if it is not balanced to produce team results.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Not in the least...
…all you have to do is look at the main ingrediants you want from a lineup to produce runs – balance.
If Hendry knew how to do this, he wouldn’t have put the team he did together. Funny this is, he saw a terrific example of it in 03 and didn’t recognize it.
Sort of like picking Bradley to be a left handed run producer, when he has always been a better run producer from the right side.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
You can make a case for that
with Bradley.
I don’t think you can make that case with the ’04 team.
Oh, and I forgot throwing in Nomar at the trade deadline. Sorry, that team should have prevailed on talent alone. Chemistry, schemistry.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe, except...
… the Cubs saw how a TEAM made up of not-necessarily-stars got almost to the WS in 2003 with good player leaders like Miller and Karros.
Instead, Hendry broke that team up.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's not so much...
…he broke the team up, he just didn’t recognize how much certain skills meant to team success.
Hendry would be good at putting a softball team together, but has failed at putting the proper value on having balanced skills sets on his rosters.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
More revisionist history
Yes, Hendry broke up that team, just like he destroyed that ’08 team on which virtually every key player returned in ’09.
Christ on a bike.
Al, I think this whole Ryno thing is making you a bit unhinged.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, that's right.
While Michael Barrett hit better than Damian Miller, he was definitely worse for that pitching staff.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Barrett...
…had absolutely no baseball sense at all.
The best thing Lou ever did was telling Hendry to ged rid off him.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Agreed.
He was a nice guy and could hit a little. But as a catcher: awful.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He certainly wore out his welcome
but not at the time.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Which is why, to me,
2004 is more disappointing than 2003 was.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
You know who else could say "I don't care"? Ozzie Guillen.
It doesn’t take a Cubs icon to know how to deal with pressure. Or ignore it completely.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Someone who doesn't buy into the curse
and doesn’t cave to the media who constantly resurrect it. Someone who could handle Chicago’s media could also be someone who doesn’t let New York’s media bother him. But, I am not convinced Girardi would leave the Yankees.
I have PMS & a GPS -- which means -- I am a bitch, and I will find you.
by cub in louies nest on Sep 17, 2010 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Worf talking sense?
Excellent points.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I think...
…you may be on to something.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Understanding the history
and not giving a rats ass about the history are two different things. You can have a manager who understands the Cubs and its painful past and doesn’t give two shits about it and still have been a Cub player.
Here is what I don't want...
…a guy who over anlalyzes that he is with the Cubs and he somehow has to remember game 5 in San Diego or Game 6 against the Marlins to win games.
I want a guy who will manage the game and situation in front of him, and be damned with all this history crap.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I don't think Ryne Sandberg would "overanalyze" game five in SD.
I do think the fact that he was there, as part of his MLB experience, would help him lead his team.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
LOL!
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL!
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Sep 16, 2010 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL!
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 16, 2010 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, now you are all just laughing at each other laughing.
LOL!
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Wasn't meant to be funny :P
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions
neither was that.
you realize now the inmates are running the asylum doncha? LOL
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL!
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Sep 16, 2010 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
I really can't understand this at any level
The fact that Sandberg played and lost in the SD series will help him lead his team better than any other manager?
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Yes.
Because he understands on a personal level what coming close and losing feels like.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I guess I don't understand why that makes him better qualified.
"I knew when I left that restaurant that night that he was our guy." ~ Cubs GM Jim Hendry, Jan 2009.
I think it's important.
The last two managers have remarked that it’s important — understanding the culture.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
self-fulfilling prophecies
in hindmid-sight then I guess…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Being with the Cubs...
…does not give one exclusivity on the experience necessary to manage the Cubs to a championship.
After all the exposure the Cubs have had, someone would have to have been on the moon to not know there will be signficant pressure.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Knowing it and experiencing it are two very different things.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
doesn't ANY player on ANY team
understand this?
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 17, 2010 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Absolutely...
…and way too much emphasis is being placed on this.
Baseball is baseball and you don’t have to have a history with the Cubs to be able to deal with certain pressures that may come your way. If anything, you could make an argument in the opposite direction.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
That would be why I'd make a lousy manager
The players would get sick of me showing them video of Leon Durham and Alex Gonzalez before every game (including spring training!).
isn't that most of the mangers we've had?
just sayin’ :)
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Sep 16, 2010 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions
My head hurts
I couldn’t get through this post. Way too many things to comment on.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
What a bunch of Hooey
Stick to BASEBALL Ricketts!
Did Joe Torre have to “know” about the Yankees before he was hired?!
How much did Dusty know about the Reds while he is driving them towards a Division Title this year?
Both Dusty and Lou stuck to "get me the players, and we will show up and bullocks to the ‘Curse’. The “curse” is poor management decisions, and a horse-bleep organization that has held The Charming Wrigley Field level of importance more than excellence in front office and talent.
Honestly, since the last two “hot candidates” taking up the last six years (or the 39 years prior to them for that matter) on the North Side did not win a Pennant or World Series, what can be lost in trying someone such as Sandberg or Quade anyway?
If that's your name you wouldn't have a choice.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Did Joe Torre have to “know” about the Yankees before he was hired?!
The Yankees didn’t have a title drought to overcome. Also, they had made the playoffs the year before Torre was hired.
How much did Dusty know about the Reds while he is driving them towards a Division Title this year?
Nothing — and he had two bad years before this year. So who’s responsible — Dusty or the players?
The point is, the Cub situation is unique, and both Baker and Piniella said that repeatedly, that they had no idea what they were getting into when they were hired.
Someone who has a long connection to the team, the organization and the city has that. In this case, yes, it is needed, in my opinion.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That really limits your options
on whom to hire.
I get what you’re saying, but I also lend credence to what Worf is saying. I don’t want the taint of failure on the next manager.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions
So does that mean...
… you’d only hire a manager who won the World Series every single year?
Because there is no such person.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well, winning it at least ONCE
would be nice … and an improvement over the last 102 years in this town.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Lou
HAD won a World Series.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Sep 16, 2010 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Might have worked out better...
…for both Lou and Dusty if the Cubs had a better GM.
I would especially emphasize Baker, because he is younger than Lou and still has gas in the tank.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Dusty is only six years younger than Lou.
He’s 61.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Lou won it once as a manager, and twice as a player.
Dusty won it as a player. I just think it’s time to go with a younger manager who is fresh, fired up, and most importantly, feels the need to prove himself. I think the idea of an up-and-coming guy with something to prove. I think Sandberg manages with that mentality, because too many people remember his personality as a player, which is night and day different from his personality now. He knows the Cubs minor league system. He knows and understands the fans, the media, the city, the ballpark, and the culture in general. Most importantly, he’s a Cub. A true, lifelong Cub. This is the job he wants and will be 100 percent dedicated to. He wants to win because it’s personal for him, to deliver to the fans what he was not able to do as a player. When you add it all up, he’s the guy. If Girardi is available, then it’s going to get very interesting. But if he’s not, which he almost surely will not be, they would make a big mistake by not going with Ryno.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Sep 16, 2010 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
You can really argue
that the Cub manager position is the most unique, and the most challenging in all sports. I speak from being a wonderful Browns fan to, but that is another 46 years to discuss that.
Fact is, I do what a manager that has seen and experienced what being a Cub is all about. Lou even admitted it how difficult it was to manage in Chicago, he did not understand the situation.
That being said, the next manager will only be as good as what Hendry can spend and how Jimbo spends it.
how much does ricketts actually know about cubs history?
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
No one's saying that.
Why do you keep making stuff up?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You've said it several times
Of the big 3, only Sandberg knows the real pressures and history because he played for 15 years. If that’s not the history we’re talking about, then I don’t what we are.
That has nothing to do with Tom Ricketts knowing Cubs history.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
but, the point is, it shouldn't matter
knowledge of pointless canonicals should mean nothing to actually being able to manage and run the cubs.
if there was a qualified, mongolian baseball coach who didn’t know the cubs exist, let alone year 103, billy goats, curses, and other nonsense, ricketts comments don’t hold water. the only thing that actually matters is results.
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
by awfullyquiet on Sep 16, 2010 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Right now...
…I’m more concerned about how much he knows about baseball, because his call on whether to keep the status quo in current baseball leadership, will have a far greater impact on the next 10 years of Cubs baseball.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The Yankees didn’t have a title drought to overcome. Also, they had made the playoffs the year before Torre was hired.
When Torre took over the Yankees hadn’t won a title in 17 years, which may not seem like a lot, but in New York that’s an eternity. He was crushed, and I mean crushed by the media.
Nothing — and he had two bad years before this year. So who’s responsible — Dusty or the players?
Dust took over a team that was in full blown rebuilding mode, knowing full well, that it would take time to rebuild the team. Jocketty also took over. They weren’t expected to win.
And really, what does knowing the history of the Cubs have to do with anything? So, if Sandberg becomes the manager, he knows about all the losing the Cubs have had, so he’s what? Because he understands the history of losing he’s going to tell his players not to lose? I fail to see how knowing the history of a terrible team has to do with anything.
Very, very well said!!!!
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Torre "Crushed"
George took heat for hiring him, however they won the World Series his first year. I live in the Atlantic area listen to plenty of New York media, they did not crush him. They did however Crushed Torre going out the door for some unknown reason. Him and Cashman late did not see eye to eye.
How did Terry Francona win in Boston?
Seems like that would be impossible. He never played there. He had no association with the Red Sox.
The fact that he had Manny, Ortiz, Damon, Schilling, etc. must not have had nothing to do with it.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Of himself lol.
add in there the double negative….
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Red Sox had been in World Series.
Yes, of course you have to have good players first.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But Francona had no association
and yet he broke the Curse of Babe Ruth.
"I knew when I left that restaurant that night that he was our guy." ~ Cubs GM Jim Hendry, Jan 2009.
There was no such curse.
Made-up by a sportswriter.
Anyway, if Dave Roberts doesn’t steal that base in the ALCS, the Red Sox get swept out by the Yankees.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sorry forgot the sarcasm font
As for Roberts, agreed. I just don’t see why Sandberg’s playing days mean anything. OK, he loves the Cubs. He wants them to win. He’ll try really really really hard. And those Brownie points mean what in the standings?
At this point, if Sandberg is the manager, fine. There are many things I like about him as a potential manager. I just don’t see why his playing days automatically make him a better choice than Quade or potentially another candidate.
"I knew when I left that restaurant that night that he was our guy." ~ Cubs GM Jim Hendry, Jan 2009.
To be fair
the Goat Curse was made up by a sportswriter too.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 16, 2010 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Not at all.
Only saying that winning there wasn’t all Francona.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Winning is never...
…about what the manager does or doesn’t do, it is about what the players do on the field.
The Red Sox organization won those championships, and Francona was a simply a piece of the puzzle.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Francona's mantra after Game 3 was "just win ONE game"
He repeated it after Game 4, and Game 5, and so on. Not the Agincourt speech from “Henry V” but it still seemed to have rallied the troops.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
hahah. why the pain? If there was one line in summarizing Hendry’s idiocy as a gm to an outsider, I think that might be it
That means more to me than who will be our next manager.
Facts like those will be more important than whether we hire Sandberg, Quade, etc. And oh joy we have Hendry still in place to sign more contracts affecting the long term future.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions
This is why...
…I am happy Baker is showing this year that he isn’t the dumbass Cub fans made him out to be.
Hendry basically took two of the most successful managers over the last 25 years look like crap.
How this keeps flying over so many people’s heads is amazing to me.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Sep 16, 2010 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Hey
Hendry gets no pass here with me. Dome, Bradley, Grabow and the length on Soriano’s deal is killing this team. Bradley and Dome especially.
Bradley alone gets Hendry fired
That was so stupid in my opinion that I can’t trust his judgment on anything.
"I knew when I left that restaurant that night that he was our guy." ~ Cubs GM Jim Hendry, Jan 2009.
What??
I don’t recall in Hendry in any of the post-games new conferences telling either Baker or Piniella what to say.
I remember the Cubs going to the playoff in 2003, nearly in 2004, 2007, and 2008.
You make it sound like Hendry hired these guys and then short-changed them to 70 seasons each year.
These are all grown men and each is responsible and accountable for their own actions.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Sep 17, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Not sure if Hendry made Piniella look bad...
But Quade sure is.
And trust me, if Baker can win again so can Hendry.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Sep 17, 2010 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Well that is less painful than....
Milton Bradley, 3 years $30 million.
Or for the real masochist “I knew when I left that restaurant that night that he was our guy.” Thinking about it, that may be a better one.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
It's Girardi...THEN Sandberg...
I have NO problem with Ryno IFGirardi turns the job down. My concern is…will Ryno have a problem of being 2nd choice? Also, I don’t get what Sandberg being 6 outs from a World Series has to do with anything. How does he use THAT to his advantage? What does he tell the team?…“Hey guys, gather around…in 2003 we were 6 outs from getting somewhere this franchise hasn’t been to in 103 years and we choked. And when I say choked, I mean fell flat on our asses and it’s because of a goat or some curse thing. Just ignore it, cuz, even tho I was amongst a group that DID let the pressure overwhelm us, you should just not even think about it…oh…and let’s ALL welcome Adam Dunn to the team…welcome Adam.”
I don’t understand the logic of that, but, if it works…I’m in.
Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.
BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I asked Cleaverbot(who can be found at cleaverbot.com) who the next Cubs manager will be. The answer….TONY BLAIR!
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
That must be some good stuff you got your hands on...
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 16, 2010 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions
cleverbot not cleaverbot
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Huh.
I tried that site and the answer I got was:
The world will end in 10 years.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I’d Love to Change the World
But I don’t know what to do
So I leave it up to you-oo
:)
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Sep 17, 2010 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions
10 Years After---A Space In Time
one of the best albums evar!
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Sep 17, 2010 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
why is koyie hill still on the cubs roster
It is a reflection on the color of the sea.
that makes no sense
by jesus christos on Sep 16, 2010 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions
the color of the sea is blue
and the cubs color is blue. maybe cleverbot is saying his spot on the roster is a reflection of how much this team sucks
by jesus christos on Sep 18, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Younger team going forward...
Read: little if any money will be spent during the off season. And Dunn certainly isn’t getting any younger…then again, no one is…
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Sep 16, 2010 10:14 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I think you interpreted that correctly...
…and you will not see any significant FA signing this offseason.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Depends, I suppose...
…. on what, if any, money can be cleared off the payroll from existing deals.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Then there's a really good chance
attendance will be down next year. And then there will be less money to spend.
And then no more free agents in 2012, either.
And the downard spiral continues.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 16, 2010 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
What about money coming off the books?
Wouldn’t the expiring contracts free up the cash needed to sign talent?
Plus I’m not so sure that attendance can be directly tied to a team’s ability to compete. It certainly helps to have as much money coming in as you can, but the Rays will soon boast a 3-year span of 97-84-90+ wins while finishing in the bottom third of MLB attendance during that same time.
The money is part of it...
…but I’m not so sure Ricketts just doesn’t want to put moratorium on any signficiant signings since the Club has been burned so often.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Could be, but whether that matches up
with the attendance decrease is uncertain.
The Rays aren’t exactly doing great financially, from what I hear. But one thing is certain: You can’t throw open the doors at Wrigley and expect a sellout anymore.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I see two interesting implications in ricketts remarks
The first is the Cubs commitment to going younger by building from within. Many of us have been distressed by the team’s lack of a long range plan. Look at Minnesota and Atlanta and Tampa Bay. They all have been built from within and team fundamentals have been consistent all the way up the ladder for their prospects. It seems Ricketts acknowledges that there will be a reliance on building from within. No more 8 year deals and constantly trying to plus holes for one year at the expense of the long haul.
Secondly he wants to have a long term manager who has a history with the Cubs. It didn;t seem to me that he was explicitly ranking Sandberg, Girardi ir Quade who all have different history with the organization. But there is no doubt in my mind that Ricketts, not Hendry will make that selection.
I’d ask one question. Is it better to have lived through failure after failure with the Cubs (Sandberg) or less history but has experienced success in the WS (Girardi)?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Can anybody comment on
Sandberg’s knowledge of or willing to work with sabermetrics? Is he going to be an old school guy or does he get the #’s?
by SouthWabashSoul on Sep 16, 2010 11:13 PM CDT reply actions
no on knows for sure
as the amount of information that he has to study for the minors doesn’t compare to the amount of information he has to study for the pros, but he’s acknowledged before that he’s an "old-school’ type, and most people believe that’s the type of manager he will be.
I think this
is a big argument for Quade.
by SouthWabashSoul on Sep 17, 2010 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions
He's never mentioned it
so it’s assumed he’s not big on it.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 17, 2010 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions
And, has Quade as bench coach for Ryno
left the building? I think maybe it has.
by SouthWabashSoul on Sep 16, 2010 11:14 PM CDT reply actions
Why?
It may be possible that Quade would be offered a manager’s job elsewhere, if the Cubs don’t retain him. Good for him if so.
If not, he could be offered the bench coach job under Sandberg, and under those circumstances he’d likely take it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I could be wrong...
…but if Sandberg gets the job, I’ll bet his bench coach is not currently on the staff.
Also, if it is Sandberg, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Dawson involved somehow.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Well, if you've been promoted
and done well in your new position, do you really want to take a step back and carry water for someone else? And if you’re the new man in charge, do you really want someone who held your position before and clearly still covets it, sitting next to you?
If Sandberg is the new manager and is truly an old school guy, I definitely want someone at least whispering the #‘s in his ear. Don’t care if it’s Quade or whoever. I think Ricketts gets this too: He started an investing platform for crying out loud. May be a point against Ryno in the decision making process.
by SouthWabashSoul on Sep 17, 2010 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Agree...
…if it is Sandberg, I think the right move for bench coach is someone with signficant experience and will be able to lend that to a rookie manager.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Then why hire Sandberg at all
if he needs someone to hold his hand?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
He isn't my first choice...
…but I think the answer to your question is obvious.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Ahh, living on Mtn. time
seems like everybody’s left the building.
by SouthWabashSoul on Sep 16, 2010 11:16 PM CDT reply actions
We need a manager that will end all the lollygagging
by Soriano, Aramis, and anyone else. One that will bench guys regardless of what they make. Find that guy, and you will be much better and ,in time, win.
"Any player who gets the opportunity to play at Wrigley should welcome it"
With guys like Ramirez and Soriano...
…you have two options; you either don’t sign them in the first place, or you get rid of them.
They are what they are and they were that way long before they came to the Cubs. There is no manager that is going to change them now.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
You lollygag to first, in and out of the dugout, you know what that makes you?
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 17, 2010 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions
The only guy who can manage this team is one that
hit two homers for the Cubs off the best reliever in baseball at the time to win a game in June 26 years ago and then watched a ball hit by a San Diego Padre bounce over his head soon after a ball had rolled under the first baseman’s mitt in October of that same year.
It is this man and this man only who possesses the fusion of history and knowledge necessary to figure out how to milk four more years out of a fading left fielder making a zillion dollars, a third baseman who has lost all interest in playing third base, a collection of starters who seem allergic to pitching in any inning past the sixth and a two man bullpen.
It is this son of Cubdom that will provide a special alchemy developed by playing hundreds of meaningless September games on rotten teams for bad managers.
by the nth on Sep 17, 2010 1:05 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Can I get a witness? Amen brother!
I 100% agree with you!
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Sep 17, 2010 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions
All this analysis over a quote
reminds me of that scene in Life of Brian where he’s trying to hide in the crowded market by pretending he’s a prophet and they are all arguing about the meaning of everything he says and does. Are we going to end up following the shoe or the gourd? Here.
♪♫ Take me out WITH the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don't care if I NEVER get back ♪♫ Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer
I was thinking the same thing, minus the Life of Brian reference.
One key point (and I apologize if this has already been made):
What if Fredi Gonzalez had agreed to an interview? I doubt Ricketts would have made his comments yesterday about understanding the team’s history. Gonzalez was said to be Hendry’s top candidate. We can speculate that Ricketts could have overruled Hendry, but I think there’s a simpler explanation:
Ricketts’ comments don’t indicate much because they’re not set in stone. If the Cubs turned around and hired someone who has been discussed — Maddon? Scioscia? — who was generally respected, Ricketts would simply say that a great candidate presented himself, and the Cubs couldn’t refuse. He’d have to field a couple questions about his comments yesterday, but so what?
I think the next Cubs manager will either be Sandberg or Quade, with Girardi as a wild card. But I don’t think that because of Ricketts’ comments.
That is my favorite scene in the film
Because it distills the fundamental problem that has plagued organized religion for thousands of years into a couple minutes. Truly an “it’s so funny ‘cause it’s so true” moment.
Kind of like the Big-Endians and Little-Endians
in Gulliver’s Travels fighting about the right or wrong way to crack an egg.
♪♫ Take me out WITH the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don't care if I NEVER get back ♪♫ Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer
Speaking of delivering a message...
…this could be the key quote to focus on:
“I think that we’re going to bring in someone who has in their mind that this is their job and their position forever,” Rickett said.
If they would like to land Girardi (and I see no reason why they wouldn’t), this could mean the Cubs are willing to give him a very long contract term (5-6 years) to get his attention. I would doubt the Yankees offer him any more than 3 years.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Possible, I suppose.
You’re right that the Yankees might not offer him more than 3 years; but they could offer him more total money.
Is a 5-6 year deal the right thing to do for a manager?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Depends how badly...
…you want him and it sounds like Ricketts wants someone for a long time.
With an unproven guy like Sandberg, I wouldn’t give him more than 2 year with an option, because you just don’t have the track record to see how it would workout.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
probably not
5-6 years on a manager sounds a bit ridiculous … although admittedly, it might be the only way to get Joe Girardi to ponder it, since it would give him security during the rebuilding years. If the Cubs wanted to get aggressive, a 5-6 year deal for 20-24 million would perhaps make the Yankees think long and hard about it. They aren’t going to pay through the roof for Girardi yet, and a combination of length and an AAV 4 million and up … might get them to ponder not trumping the offer.
Giving 5-6 years and that much money to any manager, though … it isn’t Soriano-esque, but I don’t think that’s a smart move. At the end of the day, I think Joe Girardi is going to use the Cubs to leverage a better deal from New York. If I had to take a stab at it right now, I think he might resign with the Yankees for, say, 3-12 to 3-15.
How many years...
…would you give an unproven Sandberg?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
For Sandberg or Quade
I’d go 2 years and either 1 or 2 options years, depending on AAV.
I'd probably do the same thing.
Then, presuming there was significant improvement in year 1 or 2, you could guarantee the third year and give an extension.
That is, BTW, exactly what the White Sox did with Ozzie Guillen.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Three men in Cubs history
have managed the team for six straight seasons, and two of them were before World War I. Leo Durocher, Frank Chance and Cap Anson. If you count five years, you can add Charlie Grimm and Jim Riggleman (???) to the list.
Offering Girardi a contract like that would be a typical dumb Cub thing to do. Kind of like offering Soriano eight years. But you really won’t be able to trade Girardi if something goes wrong.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 17, 2010 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
The fact that only...
…3 guys managed for 6 years tells you a bit about the organization, not the managers.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I would add...
…the Cubs main priority right now should be building an organization where managers can be successful and stick around for 10+ years, not constantly spitting them out and looking for the next “perfect” guy to be the answer.
If the Cubs did offer a guy like Girardi 5 years or so, they could be saying we recognize the organization is more to blame for the revolving door than the manager and we are willing to fix that and commit to a manager we feel fits how we want to go forward.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The problem is
There is absolutely no guarantee that Joe GIrardi would be the guy you’d want around for six years.
If you give me Girardi along with Mark Teixeira, Alex Rodriguez, CC Sabathia and Mariano Rivera, I’d take that. But you can’t separate the job he’s done in NY from the roster he’s been handed. Has Joe Girardi done a good job in NY? I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe a different manager would have won two World Series there. Maybe they would not have won any. I just don’t know.
I believe that hiring managers is close to a crap shoot. I don’t believe it makes much sense to throw a ton of money and six years at a crap shoot.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 17, 2010 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
At least, there's not enought evidence
to suggest it is worth giving Girardi 5 or 6 years when Ryno would probably take 2 with an option along with less annually.
Hiring managers...
…is more of a crap shoot if the organization has flaws and that has been the main issue with the Cubs.
A good organization should be able to win with a variety of good managers, because they are in a position to win. I will go to my Joe Torre example again. Could other managers have won in NY with that team? I say a definite yes!
Strengthen the organization, and the manager situation will take care of itself.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
So the Cubs want a guy who'll stick around a while
but we’re not willing to give him that guarantee?
Oy.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
How many years has Bobby Cox ever gotten on a single contract?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Touche
But you get what you pay for (or, in the Cubs’ case, overpay for).
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 17, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I lived in LA for a while, and saw the Dodgers play a lot.
As I recall they always gave their managers like Walt Alston and Lasorda year-by-year contracts.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
Walter Alston - 23 one-year contracts as a manger for the Dodgers
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Times have changed
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I don't think
the Cubs feel obligated to get into a bidding war with anyone. They have enough good options that it simply isn’t necessary. Ryno really makes things quite easy on them by wanting the job so badly. They know he’s there if a reasonable attempt at Girardi falls through.
Oh, Good Grief, Just Give It To Sandberg Already
We all know how this is going to end, so why bother going through the dance?
they asked the eternal question
the dance is the thing.
by SouthWabashSoul on Sep 17, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
As long as
it’s not Bobby F. Valentine, I guess I will be ok.
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
How about the smartest baseball analyst EVER for manager?
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
Have in their mind
The comment about getting a manager who has in their mind that they will have the job forever is probably asking the right man to pretend or to not think too far into the future. No doubt there was something about what Lou did or said that Ricketts didn’t like. Very likely they are going to hire a manager several years younger than Lou. And maybe he really meant having a job managing some team forever, not necessarily the Cubs. When the team loses alot, they’ll want another manager no matter what that manager thinks, no matter what the manager did previously, and whatever he does they won’t like it even though anything different is more likely because of the team losing and the lousy team than it is for anything having to do with competent managing.
Totally agree that the 103 year drought is something a new manager should just ignore. A team that buckles is buckling for some other reason that has to do with circumstances of recent vintage. A good briefing of the media aspects that come with the Cubs job and feeling the candidate can handle it sounds like a good idea.
I didn’t think anything within the highlighted comments pointed to an internal candidate being favored or ideal. They didn’t exclude that possibility either. Ricketts wants somebody who won’t go to pieces because of pressure outside of the organization. When the losing is significant, the pressure will come from within the organization. There was a knock on Lou somewhere here too.
Ricketts can hire whoever he wants and it sounds like there are a few good candidates who are being interviewed. Managers are usually paid enough to deal with whatever their boss thinks they should. A good manager is important, but the status less concerning to me than the roster.
Sandberg is still my guy
I like Quade and he’s doing a very good job. But I would hire Sandberg as manager and have Quade be bench coach. If the Cubs hire Quade as full-time skipper, I’d bring Ryno up to the big-league level as Quade’s bench coach.
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