OT: Longoria and Price Call Out Tampa Bay Fans
by ctcoff99 on Sep 28, 2010 3:03 PM CDT
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http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5625055
With a chance to clinch on Monday night, the Rays drew about 12,000 fans. Pathetic, I agree. Two of the Rays biggest stars sent out tweets following the game calling it "embarrassing", among other things. However, players blasting fans is usually a battle they are never going to win. Number one, it comes off as millionaire pro athletes telling average folks how they should spend their money in a down economy. Yet the economy is just as bad in New York, Boston, Chicago, L.A., St. Louis, and other cities who continue to draw well in spite of the economy. So do the Rays superstars have a point? Maybe, but their point also shows a lack of knowledge of the market in which they are playing.
First, football will always be king in the state of Florida, a.k.a. "The Pigskin Penninsula". It takes a major event like the Marlins winning the World Series (ugh!) or the Miami Heat's landing LeBron James to take the focus off the Gators, Hurricans, and Seminoles, as well as the Dolphins, Buccaneers, and Jaguars. Second, Florida is a transplant state, in which everyone who lives there is from somewhere else. Therefore, people move to Florida with their sports loyalties from home, and while they might adopt the Rays, Marlins, Heat or Magic as their adopted team (as I did with the Magic while I lived in Orlando), the hometown loyalties will always endure. What this means is that there are probably more Yankee fans in the Tampa area than Rays fans. Significantly more, in fact. Just like there are probably more Cub fans in the Phoenix area than Diamondbacks fans. Tampa is a small market that was a Yankee town long before the Rays were even an idea.
All players, for all their competitiveness, want to play for a good, loyal fan base. I understand that, and it would be easy for me, as a fan of a team that has been around for 134 years in a major market city, to bash Rays fans for their apathy. But the bottom line is, Chicago and Tampa Bay are on opposite ends of the sports market spectrum. Total 180 degree opposites in every way. Large market vs. Small market, Old sports city vs. New expansion sports market. So it's not even fair to compare the two.
The Rays have been around for about 12 years, and were not even a blip on the sports world radar until 2008. But the fact that they have been winning big for three years now, in the freaking AMERICAN LEAGUE EAST and are still not being supported by the community really shows me that baseball has never really caught on there. Several of their big name players are free agents at the end of the year, and their payroll will be slashed significantly with crowds like this. If they start losing again, in that division, and their crowds get even smaller (which they will), it could signal the end of baseball in the Tampa Bay area. The only question is, would anyone notice?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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The fact that later on in the article
it goes on to quote the owner that the pay will be slashed next year unless the manager wins the lottery say something about team also.
I must admit we have been watching the scores of their games, but only b/c we want the Yankee’s to lose.
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Sep 28, 2010 3:19 PM CDT reply actions
Where to Relocate?
There aren’t many markets that don’t currently have MLB teams that could support one. Perhaps, Portland or San Antonio could. Sacramento is too close to Oakland and San Francisco. Portland and San Antonio are small markets. I don’t know if either one of those places would do better than St. Petersburg. You’ve got 81 home dates with which to deal to sell tickets for every MLB team. That’s why it’s so difficult to support an MLB team.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Portland lost its Triple-A team because it no longer has a stadium
San Antonio is too small and too close to Houston and Dallas. Las Vegas is too small a TV market (15 spots below the smallest current TV market).
The only logical place for any team to relocate is northern New Jersey. The Rays would do great there. But try getting that one past the Mets and Yankees without paying billions in territorial infringement.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Nashville always seemed like a good place to drop a team
"A good cigar is like a beautiful chick with a great body who also knows the American League box scores." Corporal Maxwell Q. Klinger
As a Nashvillian...
…I really don’t see a MLB team coming here, especially in these economic times. The city is not going to step up to build a facility, after building a football stadium and a hockey arena over the past 15 years. Two professional franchises (Titans & Predators) is probably the most this market could support, and it’s no secret that the Preds struggle in what is a hardcore football town. Don’t get me wrong…I would love it! I’m a huge fan of both our pro teams, and have season tix for the Titans, but I would trade both franchises tomorrow for a MLB team!
we have a triple A team that nobody sees
there is no way that Nashville could support a baseball team, we are a geographical novelty, we’re four hours from atlanta, cincinnati and St. Louis.
we used to get the stadium full with Thirsty thursdays (1$ beers) but that was cancelled. we maybe get 3000 people in when the iowa cubs show up.
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
Or New Orleans
I figure if they are crazy about LSU baseball… maybe?
"A good cigar is like a beautiful chick with a great body who also knows the American League box scores." Corporal Maxwell Q. Klinger
New Orleans will probably lose its' NBA
franchise eventually. And, if and when the Saints are losing again…..watch out.
They can rebuild the Superdome all they want, but N.O. is not a growth market and it is almost entirely without corporate support. The Saints trip to the Super Bowl saved the franchise. (For now.)
MLB will NEVER, ever locate a team in New Orleans.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Sep 28, 2010 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions
New Orleans can fill an event like 8 NFL games
But over 81 dates? I can hear the funeral music now.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Sep 28, 2010 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions
New Orleans is way too small a market.
So is Nashville.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Tampa being bigger sure hasn't helped them
Granted I’m flinging stuff at the wall right now, but Louisiana probably has one of the better non-MLB baseball fanbases around. Between several colleges that draw VERY well, AAA-New Orleans and Shreveport’s independent team, they have fans. At least more than 12,000/game.
A stadium? That’s a different story for sure.
"A good cigar is like a beautiful chick with a great body who also knows the American League box scores." Corporal Maxwell Q. Klinger
New Orleans
Five-plus years after Katrina, I still think New Orleans has bigger issues than attracting an MLB team.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
This is true
Thinking on the super super positive side though… maybe it could do for one of the less lovely parts of NO what Petco did for the Gaslamp district? Not a bad thing to build around.
And yes, I’m talking out of my bum.
"A good cigar is like a beautiful chick with a great body who also knows the American League box scores." Corporal Maxwell Q. Klinger
New Orleans tried to attract teams years ago
Finley tried to move the Athletics here years ago, but the city of Oakland wouldn’t let him out of his lease. New Orleans also tried to attract the Pirates. This was back when the Superdome was a shiny, new stadium.
I can speak for the “New Orleans” market overall and I can say one thing. The Saints have the following throughout most of Louisiana as well as a big chunk of the Gulf Coast region (Miss and Bama). They actually managed to make it work here despite not having a winning product for much of its history.
The NBA experiment, however, hasn’t been that great. New Orleans lost the Jazz and I don’t know if they’ll be able to hold onto the Hornets. The NFL situation is a bit unique and pretty difficult to replicate. An MLB experiment might have worked when the city was trying to attract teams over 30 years ago. It’s a bit too late to put hands in the pot now with how mass media works now.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
Of course, this all ignores a simple fact
Television deals in the NFL are different than in other sports. I can watch Hornets games on CST. But if you don’t have that cable service, you can’t catch the games. There are plenty of people who support the Hornets despite long time loyalties to other NBA teams. We’re pretty passionate about our teams down here. It’s just unfortunate that an MLB experiment couldn’t work now.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
There's no way New Orleans is a big enough market to support a baseball team.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You just agreed with me, you know
Media in baseball is pretty obscene right now. My main point was that the time to dip their hands into the pot was 30 years ago, which they tried to do in attempts to attract the Athletics and the Pirates.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
Obscene in the sense that
So much revenue is tied directly to the media as opposed to how systems operate in other leagues.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
Or Rich Enough
I see it as a similar market to Memphis. I agree that Memphis and New Orleans are too small to support MLB, but the bigger reason is that neither market is nearly rich enough to support MLB. If you can take home at least $25,000/year after taxes in either market, you’re doing better than average in New Orleans and Memphis.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
New Orleans is.
NO is the 52nd TV market. Surprisingly, I discovered Nashville is larger than Milwaukee — 29th. Milwaukee is 35th — currently the smallest TV market in the major leagues.
Las Vegas is 42nd.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
When evaluating TV markets...
Do they look at the city alone or do they consider the state it’s in? Milwaukee may not be big but when you combine it with Madison it can’t be small.
It's the metropolitan area.
Madison is its own TV market.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Nashville Market
That encompasses Clarksville and Murfreesboro, TN, and Bowling Green, KY. That’s why that market is so much bigger than Memphis. Clarksville, Murfreesboro, and Bowling Green are all closer to Nashville than Jonesboro, AR, Jackson, TN, and Tupelo, MS are to Memphis. I might add that the Nashville market is richer than Memphis, but there’s no way Nashville could support a third major league pro sports team.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
No Bowling Green in Nashville Market
Okay, I saw that Bowling Green is the #181 market and not included in the Nashville market. Anyway, Clarksville and Murfreesboro are closer to Nashville than Jonesboro, AR, and Jackson, TN, are to Memphis, so that’s why Nashville is a much bigger TV market than Memphis.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Bowling Green may not technically be in the Nashville market...
…but in reality it is. All Nashville TV stations, most radio stations, and to some degree the morning newspaper all reach into southern Kentucky and northern Alabama. For Predators hockey, the regional viewing area on Fox Sports and SportsSouth includes all of Tennessee, Kentucky, and good bits of Mississippi and Alabama. It’s still apples and oranges…MLB is not coming to Nashville anytime soon.
saints came close to moving to San Antonio before the hurricane
and they played in San Antionio while rebuiilding. San Antonio wants at team badly. Red McCombs tried to move the Vikings as well to San Antonio, but was not able to, so he sold them shortly after buying them.
baseball, they have a team and i dont see them going from the minors to the bigs
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Interesting question
Portland is largest “TV Market” that doesn’t have a baseball team; it’s larger than Pittsburgh, Baltimore, San Diego, KC, Cincinnati or Milwaukee. I have relatives in the Portland area who take Amtrak to Seattle to watch major league baseball. Source: tvb.org
San Antonio isn’t that close to Houston or Dallas – farther apart than, say, Chicago & Milwaukee, Washington & Baltimore or San Diego & LA.
Understood
and it looks unlikely they’ll have another suitable stadium soon. It’s just odd that this is the case in a market that clearly is big enough to support MLB.
Definitely agreed on market size.
Sacramento and Portland are the largest USA TV markets with no major league baseball — except for Orlando, which is only 90 miles from Tampa.
On the TV market size list, Sacramento is one spot ahead of St. Louis. Both Sacramento and Portland are ahead of the following cities that have MLB teams: Pittsburgh, San Diego, Baltimore, Kansas City, Cincinnati and Milwaukee.
Complete list of all 210 USA TV markets. You’ll note that the NY metro area is clearly large enough to support another team.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well how about Pittsburgh?
They have a blue collar fanbase that likes sports despite being smaller than Portland. I think it might work if you put a Major League team there.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Oct 5, 2010 1:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, it would.
Especially since they have a nice ballpark.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
LV Mayor Oscar Goodman says
his aim is to build a ballpark to lure either of 2 (unnamed) AL Teams.
One of the teams is the Rays. The other is the A’s.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Sep 28, 2010 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I never thought putting a team in Vegass was a good idea
The Phoenix metro area has a lot of baseball fans, I would hazard a guess way more than in LV. When the D Backs aren’t playing well, they don’t draw at all, as most of you know. If an established ( I think I can call the D Backs established, they have won a few division titles and a WS and have been here for over a decade) team has trouble, a middling team in Vegas won’t draw tumbleweeds. Plus, they would have to build a domed stadium, that’s a lot of money to invest on a return that most likely will be crap.
Better to build another hotel/casino instead of a baseball stadium.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
Think Of When the LV People Work
A lot of them work at night, when the games would be. We all know how much MLB has been worried about betting on baseball. Las Vegas wouldn’t be a good fit.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Oscar Goodman likes to talk
But action is another issue.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 29, 2010 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Jersey probably does make the most sense.
Brooklyn would be sweeter.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Sep 28, 2010 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions
TWHS?
"A good cigar is like a beautiful chick with a great body who also knows the American League box scores." Corporal Maxwell Q. Klinger
As a Colts fan, I've always wondered about if Indy could support baseball
They have a nice AAA team, major league stadium would be an issue unless they could convert Lucas Oil Stadium to one. Finding new fans is always the problem, but Indy could work because it’s pretty well split between Cubs/White Sox/Reds/Cardinals/Random fans.
I don’t know if it would work though, the Colts didn’t do all that well until Manning, and the Pacers aren’t drawing (and are in danger of moving) now that they are awful.
It’s just a shame that Tampa isn’t producing even when the team is. THAT is when you know you have a problem.
The world's biggest BCS hater and damn proud of it!
Proud Colts fan boycotting StampedeBlue.com since 7/17/2010
The opinions of Brad Wells (BigBlueShoe) do NOT speak for all Colts fans. Most Colts fans are well informed fans and good-hearted people. Most Colts fans are not egotistical douchebags.
This has been a public service announcement.
I suppose that's the problem with them moving just about anywhere
Is that most markets already have fan support for a different team.
The world's biggest BCS hater and damn proud of it!
Proud Colts fan boycotting StampedeBlue.com since 7/17/2010
The opinions of Brad Wells (BigBlueShoe) do NOT speak for all Colts fans. Most Colts fans are well informed fans and good-hearted people. Most Colts fans are not egotistical douchebags.
This has been a public service announcement.
Indy - Not Big Enough Market (Familiar Refrain)
Even if it was further away from Chicago and especially Cincinnati, I don’t think Indy would be a big enough market for MLB. Let’s face it! There aren’t any good choices for relocating an MLB team. The potential markets are too small, or there’s no MLB stadium, or the demographics don’t work out.
I think Indy is far enough away from Chicago, but It’s less than a 2-hour drive from Cincinnati. With Cincinnati being such a small market, there’s no way the Reds would want an Indy team taking away from their fanbase.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
I agree
I’m from Indiana and the majority of my family is Cubs fans and most of my wife’s family is Reds fans. There are a few scattered Tigers fans in there too. I just don’t see any baseball fan switching allegience because a new team is in the home state. I know I will never change allegience from the Cubs, even if Indiana got their own major league team.
Would affect Chicago's team
South of Madison St but surely not the team North of Madison St.
Just win the next game...!
Yap.
People also might overlook it’s only three hours from STL as well. A veritable Bermuda Triangle that sucks away fans of baseball.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Oct 5, 2010 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions
I think its about time Pittsburgh got a team
"There are no curses here...Games are won and lost on the baseball field" - Lou Piniella
I'm surprised that no one has tried the "gamble" of Vegas.
Pun intended. :) There was talk of the NBA trying to expand there for a while, then MLB, but the owners and commissioners in every sport are too afraid of the possible ramifications of playing in the gambling capital of the world. There are just too many potential disasters that could occur there. Even so, it would be interesting to say the least. Problem is, I think Vegas is a lot like Florida in that it’s a transplant city, so everyone who lives there already has their own loyalties from home.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
What about San Juan, Puerto Rico??
The Expos played there a few years ago so there is a precedent and we know that the Caribbean is a baseball crazy place with a lot of major leaguers and no major league team.
Also, since PR is part of the United States, you wouldn’t have the problems that I know some foreign teams (I’m thinking of Blue Jays, Raptors, ex-Vancouver Grizzlies) run into with converting finances.
I’m sure how major league ready their stadium is, but I would bet that they would draw a lot more than 12,000 fans for an important game. Also, PR really isn’t that much farther than Florida. For an east coast team, its a lot closer than playing the Dodgers or Angles or whatever.
What does everybody think??
Nope.
I have been to that stadium. It is way, way far from being major league suitable. They’d have to make millions of dollars in upgrades.
“Not that much farther than Florida”? Um, not correct. It’s over 1000 flight miles from Miami to San Juan — that’s about two hours flying time, about what it takes to get from Chicago to Denver. And that’s from the CLOSEST MLB city to Puerto Rico. Plus it’s not counted as one of the television DMA’s for TV rating purposes — so any televised games there wouldn’t count for national ratings.
It would be a disaster.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Who here hopes
that Ricketts dumps a load of money in front of Andrew Friedman (Rays GM) after Hendry’s contract is up? Think what that guy could do with double the resources?
That would be fine with me....
But the chance of Ricketts spending much money isn’t too good.
Mark Cuban he is not!
Is this your new mantra?
Over the top optimism to Ricketts is cheap?
"I knew when I left that restaurant that night that he was our guy." ~ Cubs GM Jim Hendry, Jan 2009.
What I'd love to see
is for the Cubs to go after someone like Chaim Bloom. He’s their Asst. Director for Minor League Ops right now, a former Baseball Prospectus writer. He’d be the type of young, modern GM to groom for the future, and bringing their know-how and patience as it regards to minor league ops would be nice. They do a wonderful job with raw pitching through systematically developing them to ensure that the young pitchers are ready for advancement. I’d love to see him as farm director (give Oneri a asst. gm title to open the spot up if need be) or, if they are adamant at keeping Oneri in the farm director spot, then perhaps give someone like Chaim an assistant GM gig.
Organizationally, we lack, on paper, that top young GM type mind that many organizations groom. Going out and landing Andrew Friedman is nice, but it’s not necessary. Identifying top young talent should always be the name of the game, whether it’s on the field or in the front office.
Well written post
I was born and raised in South Florida and am still a resident today. As you noted though I grew up with a family from Chicago and was raised with Chicago loyalties
The one additional thing that should be mentioned is the distinct difference between the baseball stadiums in Florida and those elsewhere around the country. Florida is comprised mainly of large sprawling suburban cities. We generally don’t have centrally located cities and as a result there’s little to no public transportation utilized.
While all the other points you make are valid and likely more of the reason for the low attendance down here, the lack of public transportation and centrally located stadiums really hurts sports that are hosting games daily. Its a 20-30 minute commute for almost everyone in that stadium and they don’t have the luxury of making the commute via train or bus or any other public vehicle that would allow them to rest or doing something else during the commute other than dedicating attention to the road.
The other point i’d bring up is the economy has been especially hit hard in Florida. So much of our economy is tied to luxury goods, tourism, and real estate that a real-estate inspired economic collapse hits this area a bit harder than a lot of other areas. I believe southern california and arizona have been similarly impacted. Financially the unemployment number of 12% is severely under-representing the number of people who work commission or sales-based jobs related to the real estate market that while still employed have seen their finances SEVERELY impacted.
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 28, 2010 3:33 PM CDT reply actions
Very true about the Florida economy.
And because of that economy, what you have in Tampa is a lot of people who “like” the Rays. And in 2008, they were willing to pay good money to go watch their pennant race. But the fact that these people are from the Boston area, the New York area, the Washington D.C. area, the Chicago area, or anywhere else, and the fact that rooting for the Rays is not in their blood because they did not grow up rooting for them, and they did not have four generations rooting for the Rays before them, in this economy, the Rays are not a priority. Or at the very least, they are watching them on TV for free. When you factor in the economy, and the hometown loyalties, and the 30 minute drive across a bridge to get into St. Petersburg, it really is not surprising that they are not doing well at the gate.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
that's minimum
for a lot of other people its 1-1.5 hours each way
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 29, 2010 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions
didnt state it as well as i should have
but my point was very few people live in the immediate surroundings of those two stadiums. When EVERYONE in your ballpark is commuting in at least a half hour, it means a large percentage of your fan-base is required to travel over an hour each way.
If we’re talking about a 3 hour game, you’re looking at 5-6 hour commitments for people after a work day. It’s going to be tough to get consistent attendance in that environment. In a lot of the bigger “markets” that draw consistently well, the stadiums are either located in central downtown areas or in areas that have suburban communities right around the stadium’s locale that feed downtown or the area the stadium is in
The Marlins are in Davie, FL…. The Rays are in St. Pete …no where close to a metropolitan area and Florida doesn’t even really have metropolitan areas. Workforces in Florida are not centrally located, they’re sprawling and generally in little pockets of concentration that are spread out. It makes it difficult to get big groups of people to commute to one area on a daily basis
We get people who will travel to Dolphins games because its 1 day a week. We’ll get people to Heat games (now) because they’re considered an event and the stadium is located closer to downtown Miami
The Rays and Marlins even when they’re really good, it becomes more of a challenge because of the geography of the state and all the other things mentioned (economics, origin of fandom, lack of a history with franchise, etc)
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 29, 2010 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions
No Metropolitan Area ?????
The city of Tampa is within an hour of Tropicana field (Are you familiar with that area Dart). I have Driven past Tropicana Field once and as I remember it was right off of a Major freeway. There are no harder ball[parks to travel to in Baseball than Chicago,NY, Boston. I don’t buy that the location of Tropicana field is the Problem.
You drove past Tropicana Field once...
…and that makes you an expert in Bay area traffic between 3 and 7 pm in that area…got it.
The Stadium is at least one hour drive during rush hour, which lasts about 4 hours.
The issue is not the drive, it’s that there’s only about 51,000,000 people within an hour drive. Sarasota/Bradenton, Orlando and even the Tampa burbs are more than an hour.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
I could do 1-1.5 hours standing on my head.
It takes me at least 2 1/4 to get to Wrigley and that’s when traffic is good. Somehow I made it to about 20 games. I must be out of my flippin mind.
♪♫ Take me out WITH the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don't care if I NEVER get back ♪♫ Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer
impressive
i dont think i could dedicate 8.5 hours of my day to attending a game
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 30, 2010 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't buy the drive time part of your argument
It is pure hell to get in and out of Chavez Ravine, and 3 million people do it every year. Unless you happen live and work on the train lines, it is hard to get to Wrigley, Fenway and Yankee Stadium. It probably takes a solid hour or more to get from Manhattan to Flushing Meadow for a Mets game.
People don’t go to Rays games because not enough of them care.
The population of Los Angeles...
… is almost six times the population of Tampa. Much larger fanbase, and a driving culture. I’ve never been to Tampa, but it is my understanding that the stadium is in almost the worst possible location. The fact that Rays TV ratings are higher this year tells you that “not enough of them care” is incorrect.
It is easy to get to Mets and Yankees games by train, since the NYC subways go pretty much everywhere. And it does not take “an hour” to get from Manhattan to Citi Field. Even in heavy traffic, it can be done in 30 minutes. I’ve done it myself.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Regarding LA
Dodger Stadium is quite possibly the hardest stadium to get in and out of in the MLB. For fans just 20 miles from the stadium it could take upwards of 2 hours to get there and at least that going home (with only two roads leading into and out of the stadium). Considering there’s no public transportation worthy of mentioning, driving culture or not, that’s a large deterrent from attending games. And yet they do…
It’s not just one factor for why baseball in Tampa has not worked (and likely will not in the long run): bad stadium in bad location, transplanted sports culture, preoccupied locals who are notoriously fair-weather, no team history, ten years of being an abject failure followed by two years of success, their team colors being teal and black…. It’s all of the above.
Teal and black?
That’s the Marlins. The Rays are blue and yellow.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Baseball players are not entitled to adoring crowds
I realize that most sportsfans are sheep, but generally, telling somebody they are pathetic isn’t a particularly good way of getting them to pay your (bloated) salary.
That being said, this just feels like a transparent attempt to goose lagging playoff sales. I’m pretty curious to know if it works out or not.
WWOZ.org - New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Station
If only the Cubs
had star players with “bloated” contracts like Longoria’s!
2011 can't get here soon enough.
by Castro Por Presidente on Sep 28, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Just watch, the Rays will pull a Marlins and become another franchise
that should be contracted up…
All sports in Florida suck.
I’d be pissed too if I were the Devil Rays. And I refuse to call them the “Rays”, like I won’t call the Angels the LAA.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
My friend was in Tampa when the Lightning won the Stanley Cup.
He saw the team celebrating at a restaurant with the trophy. Nobody seemed to care, no fans really were surrounding them. So he has about 20 pictures of him posing with the Cup since nobody else gave a crap.
And he was visiting from Texas.
Why the hell does Florida have 2 baseball teams when many much more viable markets have none??
Bad market research.
Nothing more, nothing less. MLB, in its infinite wisdom, simply looked at the biggest markets without a team, and went after expansion in those cities with no regard for anything other than market size. Portland for sure would have been a better option than Miami or Tampa Bay. And the NBA found a diamond in the rough in Oklahoma City.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
It will be interesting to see...
…what the new ballpark in Miami does for the Marlins’ attendance numbers.
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie" -- Tony Montana
nothing after the newness of it wears off
ADRIAN GONZALEZ IS 5000X BETTER THAN PV AND BROB
by jesus christos on Sep 28, 2010 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Bingo.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
I dunno about that.
One of the reasons fans don’t go to Marlins games — in addition to the fact that the stadium has terrible sightlines and is in the middle of nowhere — is that in the summer, there are constant rain delays. Rainouts are rare, but people who go there often have to sit through delays.
With the new park, that won’t be an issue.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
its also incredibly uncomfortable
to sit in 90 degree weather with 90% humidity when over 80% of the seats are sun-soaked
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 29, 2010 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Funny story
I went to see them play the A’s one time last season, and of course the day i go they do throwback day and are called the Devil Rays that day.
I’ve still never seen the Rays play
by cubsfaninatl on Sep 28, 2010 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe 20,000 free tickets will do the trick
"A good cigar is like a beautiful chick with a great body who also knows the American League box scores." Corporal Maxwell Q. Klinger
You never know
In 1989 the Cubs were playing a series in Pittsburgh in Sept. To show support for the team which was pushing for a new park, the business community bought the tickets to one of the games and gave them away. Unfortunately for the Pirates most of them ended up in the hands of Cub fans who came to support the team. I remember they asked one player how it felt to play in such a full house and he said." 30,000 fans and 25,000 are Cub fans , thanks a lot"
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Sep 28, 2010 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Adrian Gonzalez should call out Padres fans.
I couldn’t believe the amount of empty seats last night — PETCO was half-empty!
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie" -- Tony Montana
There is a good chance he will play somewhere else next year
With the collapse, the Padres won’t get the season ticket numbers to support his post-2011 contract. Gonzalez will probably be on the block in the off-season and moved by August 1, 2011.
The lack of intensity in this market
is startling. The 10 game losing streak had an impact. Only the true faithful believe the Padres are headed to the post-season. Even with this, the team will show an attendance rise of 2K per game this season.
The next 3 games will probably see better crowds, as all “unused” tickets can be exchanged for a ticket that night, or Thursday afternoon.
The 1984 Throwback day, Thursday, as they shove their pennant in the Cubs faces again will probably see the best crowd of the week. It’s the last home game, and the later start (3:35 PT) seems to be popular.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Sep 28, 2010 7:54 PM CDT reply actions
For Goodness sake
will they please move the frigging Rays to another city where people might actually give a crap??
Why expand in the first place?
I’ve never understood some of the places baseball has moved to the last few years. I understand the concept of expansion, and the money that comes with it. I just can’t understand why it was done so poorly. Why wasn’t more research done to find better places for teams. Florida should lose both it’s teams. They can’t fill a stadium between them.
Tampa is horrible for pro sports
Did anyone see the Steelers-Bucs game in Tampa this past Sunday? It looked and sounded like a Steelers home game at Heinz Field. I saw the Eagles play the Bucs there a few years ago and it was all Eagles fans there.
I have friends who live the Tampa area and the only sports the Florida born natives (not the transplants) care about are college football and NASCAR. Even when the Rays made the World Series in 2008, games 1 and 2 in Tampa were split 50/50 between Rays fans and Phillies fans. Newspaper articles here said it was cheaper to buy for a round trip flight to Tampa and watch a game down there, then it was to pay for a ticket at Citizens Bank Park.
Miami, Tampa, Phoenix and other cities in the US are loaded with transplants and most of the them are not going to be giving up rooting for the teams they grew up with. Especially with the internet and direct tv letting people keep in touch with what’s going on with the teams they grew up with.
Florida sports fans deserve a lot of the grief they're getting.
But I’ll give them a slight exception on this one. Steelers’ fans travel extremely well and are known for buying up seats in opposing stadiums.
The Bucs had a long, long streak of sellouts and football is king in Florida. But the depressed economics, along with bad on-field performances, have pushed down attendance all over the state.
Shut up Joe Morgan.
Everyone's covered almost all the key points, so I'll just add
The … I guess sad is the best word … part is that, damn, they are such a well-run organization. Certainly, being in position to get so many top picks early on helped, but it’s only been about the last 5-6 years where they have run one of the best operations in baseball. Up and down, they are excellent, from strong front office leadership from Gerry Hunsicker in advising Andrew Friedman, to an excellent minor league operations that does a fabulous job in identifying young talent for managerial, front office roles, as well as on the field.
This is a team that has replacements to step in for the likely losses of Carl Crawford, Carlos Pena, and perhaps a starter if they move someone. They might even have a replacement for Rafael Soriano if they move him (Jake McGee). I don’t anticipate them taking a precipitous drop in the next few years – they might not make the playoffs each year, but they should be competitive. They have one of the nastiest arms in the minors in Matt Moore, someone who, if he gains consistency, could potentially be better than a guy like David Price or Jeremy Hellickson.
If they only had a little more attendance to allow them more payroll flexibility …
The fact that the organization is so well-run....
also defeats the argument for re-alignment, which is completely unnecessary. People say the AL East is unfair because of the presence of the Yankees and Red Sox. The fact that Tampa Bay, of all teams, is trying to not only compete, but has a good chance of winning the division, and is in the playoffs either way, is proof that a well-run small market team CAN compete with anyone. And if Tampa Bay can compete with the Yankees and Red Sox, so can Baltimore and Toronto. Baltimore especially, in a tradition-rich baseball town with a good fan base that will fill the ballpark if they put a competitive team out there. The Priviledged Son, Andy “The Clown” McFail’s presence makes competing impossible for the moment, but as soon as he’s forced out, they will have the ability to do it.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
McPhail isn't really at fault
in Baltimore. I know a lot of Orioles fans are complaining, but the reality is, prior to McPhail, they had no hope. Now, there are a lot of quality young arms in the system (Zach Britton is one of my favorites). He’s built up the young talent base, which was the right way to go about things. He may get forced out, but he certainly hasn’t been the problem. In fact, he was the only guy that could talk some sense into Angelos in regards to rebuilding the young talent base and building the system from the ground up.
Things were bad before he got there....
but the fact that he’s there now means they have no chance to win. He is a tool and a clown, and got a job in baseball, and made a career in the game for the simple reason that he is a charter memeber of the Lucky Sperm Club. In 12 years in Chicago, with major market resources, he made no meaningful contribution to the organization at all, and got credit for 2 world championships in Minnesota despite the fact that the team was basically in place before he got there except for Jeff Reardon in ‘87. And in Baltimore, he has done nothing but take discarded Cubs players off the scrap heap. Look where that’s gotten him. How this man stays employed, beyond his DNA, is absolutely beyond me.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
that's a bit overboard
I didn’t like the McPhail era here either, but
a) Lucky sperm club or not, the main reason that he’s gotten another chance, IMO, is because he worked well with management during the last labor agreement
b) No chance to win? They had no chance to be competitive before McPhail got to Baltimore. He’s made shrewd trades (Erik Bedard deal, George Sherrill to Dodgers deal, even the Tejada deal was fine), built up a strong minor league organization, built up a strong minor league system. Most importantly, he managed to change Angelos’ perspective on things, which was the hardest thing to do. They were headed the right direction, but Tremblay’s message was lost this year, and having Buck Showalter in there may get them on the right track.
c) Am I saying McPhail is good? No … but he’s done the right things since he’s been there, through building a strong system and changing the dynamic in B-more. Faulting his current Orioles tenure with his past isn’t really justified.
His record prior to Baltimore is crap.
His tenure in Baltimore is crap. There is an old saying in baseball about the proper ingredients to make chicken salad, and I’ll just say that McFail’s tenure does not have the proper ingredients. I’ll leave it at that. I’m trying to keep this clean. But I really strongly dislike that man, as I’m sure you can plainly see.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
his tenure in baltimore
has marked the first signs of life in the orioles organization in a long time. I’d hardly call it crap. He’s done a fabulous job building them back up – irrespective of what i think about his past, he has given them a chance. Can he take them over the bump? Who knows. Going from step A to B is fairly easy – smart drafting, dealing veterans off. For the Orioles, it was difficult because of ownership, and in that respect, McPhail gets a lot of credit for what he’s accomplished. Can he take them over in the difficult AL East? It’s going to be hard, but he’ll probably get another year or two to prove himself. Everyone knew the team was going to be ridiculously young this year.
It’s fair to question his Cubs tenure and his Twins tenure. But … there’s very little that you can say about his Baltimore tenure that I would find as crap so far. He did what the organization finally needed to do – start building back up. Going with Stockstill … maybe that’s a poor decision, but in Joe Jordan, he has an excellent guy running his drafts.
let's try this another way
can you specifically point out to me the numerous moves that he’s made that you believe would justify the idea that his tenure in baltimore has been crap? And picking up Cubs discards to fill the upper levels is hardly something that would fit. I mean, gambling on Felix Pie at that point in time, considering the cost, was a good gamble for the organization. Giving Jake Fox a 2nd look is hardly a bad decision.
I have no qualms about challenging his Cubs tenure or his Twins tenure (which I haven’t studied in awhile), but I really fail to see why his overall Baltimore tenure can be labeled as crap. If you want to challenge whether or not he is the right man to take the organization over the bump, fair enough, but his tenure so far in Baltimore has been positive. If you want to argue that he isn’t doing anything different from his Cubs tenure (keeping in mind that in the early portion of his Cubs tenure, the Cubs system was revitalized and considered to be top quality by the turn of the century) and that there is some systematic problem in how he identifies talent, maybe I could even buy that if you can convince me about further similarities that can be identified.
If you want to argue about some flaw in the development of an organizational philosophy … okay, tell me what it is, and I could perhaps even buying that. But wholesale calling it crap in his 3rd year when all the moves he’s made have long been needed in Baltimore … I don’t think that’s fair to the man’s work in Baltimore.
I have seen no clues that their organization is headed in the right direction.
Not that I am a huge reader of “Baseball America” or that sort of publication, nor am I perusing the Orioles’ web site paying attention to all their organization moves. But nowhere have I seen or read anything about Baltimore having one of the top farm systems in baseball, or even an up-and-coming one. He shed some veteran contracts, hired an old-school drill sergeant type manager, and let’s see what happens with that. He has the second-worst record in the AL (Seattle is one game worse) and only Pittsburgh has a worse record in the NL. He’s going into his fourth year in 2011. That’s enough time to see some noticeable results at the Major League level. So far, he’s had three consecutive last-place finishes and averaged about 65 wins per season. You can only hide behind the “things were horrible before I got here” for so long. Eventually, the buck stops with the guy in charge, whose job it is to win games at the Major League level. OK, I’ll be very generous and say that after three years, the jury is still out on his Baltimore tenure. I still have nothing good or positive to say about him in any way, shape, or form as a baseball guy, and I stick by what I said about him before: he got into baseball, and has stayed in the game, ONLY because of his last name.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Baltimore's farm system/young talent base
was considered one of the best in baseball the last few years, with talent like their arms (Matusz/Tillman/Arrieta, and the up and coming Zach Britton), along with Josh Bell (from the George Sherrill trade), Matt Wieters, the trade for Adam Jones, and several other first tier young talent. Add in a lot of 2nd tier young talent that they added through trades or draft, along with raw talent like an Xavier Avery right now (who is in AA already). They added to that this year by adding the impact MI talent that they needed in Manny Machado. Add in young major leaguers like Nick Markakis, along with enough pen arm types, and the future is still promising.
It doesn’t mean that they will succeed, BUT considering where Baltimore was pre-MacPhail, an organization that refused to rebuild but had no chance of competing, this was a step in the right direction. No one expected them to take major steps until 2012 at the earliest. What needed to happen was what MacPhail managed to do – Angelos finally listened to a baseball person who was telling him to rebuild the organization.
I will not contest whether or not MacPhail is in the game because of lineage, because only those that know would be able to answer, and none of us can. What I will say is that Angelos became enamored with him after the last round of labor negotations, and that was one of the primary reasons why MacPhail is there. I will also say that I find the idea, nothing personal, that MacPhail has been crap in his Baltimore tenure to be a tad ridiculous. He’s done for the organization what it sorely needed to do for a decade now, bring in young talent and hire some quality people (Joe Jordan is an excellent drafter).
As noted, maybe they head down the same path as the Cubs, with the farm system being great in value but never producing the high number of quality talent that was expected (the Cubs system was top notch in the late 90’s turn of the century, but we failed to produce the high number of top caliber talent that many had expected).
So far, his Baltimore tenure, though, has been everything that the Orioles organization needed. Sure, fans are frustrated here on the sports radio stations (105.7 the FAN). That said, they needed a drill sergeant type with the kids they had, and I think Buck will do them some good. As with Andy, maybe Buck isn’t the guy to get them over the top, but he’ll push them forward and build a more fundamentally sound squad.
here's how i think the situation is best described:
i wish i took a picture of this when i saw it. when the cubs went to tampa bay 2 years ago, what i came away with (other than a disgust for tampa fans who were crowing loudly about how bad the cubs were despite not winning, well, anything at that point in their history) was best encapsulated in a sign someone brought to the stadium for the last game of the series:
“We filled your stadium again. You’re welcome”
both teams had the best record in each respective league at the time. not surprisingly the tropicana dome was split anywhere from 60-40 to 40-60 the entire series. i do not begrudge the tampa bay rays anything. they are a good franchise. however the tampa devil ray fans (and i will continue to call them that, mainly because they hate it) did not and still have not gotten my respect. the next series after the cubs left town, the astros and rays played in front of an average 12,000 f-ing cowbell ringing crowd in tampa. for their series against the angels (who had the second or best record in the AL at the time when the rays were the best or second) they played in front of 12,000. probably less. the next year after their pennant run, they played in front of pathetic crowds with mostly the same players. this year is more of the same.
if the franchise had continued to be bad, and mired in the AL cellar i would agree that the players shouldn’t be calling out the fans. but these fans didn’t come out to see them in 2008 when they were the second best team in baseball, in 2009 when they were the defending pennant winners and this year when they are a playoff team. there only appears to be fan support when the yankees, red sox, or cubs come to town. the fanbase is made of a bunch of front running cowbell ringing poseurs and should be called out by the players. and i hope the local sports talk guys call out the fans as well for their “effort”.
I love this
Jeff Passan at Yahoo took this as an opportunity to blame MLB as well – MLB shares blame for Rays’ ‘support’
Why can’t the lack of Rays attendance simply be based on lack of existing fan loyalty (lots of Yankee fans there), a bad stadium, and a bad economy. How is this now MLB fault?
I find it funny that people hates any sort of “Big Brother” take over of a business, until it’s time to lay the blame sacrifice at the alter.
And he has his facts wrong too:
Chicago, perhaps, though the city’s North-South baseball divisions vanish for the Bears.
I don’t remember that sentiment when both Chicago teams made the playoff in 2008.
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
Good for those guys
Douche’bag “fans” used to whine about a crappy team, now the team is good, where the hell are they?!
Just win the next game...!
Florida
Florida is bad for pro sports. Most residents are from other Northern cities and have ties to those teams or members of their family have ties to those cities and teams,
Football is king here, especially college football. Florida, Florida State, Miami, even South Florida and Central Florida have steady followings, For professional football, Jacksonville Jaguars games are on the top off the blacked out list because they can’t sell tickets, I’ve heard rumblings of the Jaguars being relocated. Dolphins fans are pretty loyal, while Bucs fans are not as loyal.
Basketball is decent here, the Orlando Magic and Miami Heat are exciting right now. The Magic open a brand new arena this season and have Dwight Howard who is one of the top players. The Miami Heat have a downtown stadium and Dwayne Wade. Oh yeah, they signed exciting free agents Chris Bosh and some guy named LeBron. Both cities handle 41 home games.
Nobody cares about hockey here. Sorry.
The Rays stadium is in a horrible location, the Marlins present stadium is right off of the Florida Turnpike so it’s fairly easy to get to but a nightmare to leave. The new one is gonna be where the Orange Bowl was, I’m not familiar with that location. A couple years ago the Rays played home games at Disney World and they had a nice turnout but definitely a minor league/ spring training atmosphere that could not support an 81 game season.
Won't shed a tear from me either
Nobody cares about hockey here. Sorry.
Marketing by the league of my first sport has got to be the absolute worst case excuse for a “major” league if I ever saw one.
Not that it’d be that much better in the sunshine state, I mean come on, ice?? In Fla it seems like it should only be in mixed drinks.
Just win the next game...!
I would like to see them move to Miami
and change their name to the Gators by 2015.
♪♫ Take me out WITH the crowd.
Buy me some peanuts and cracker jack,
I don't care if I NEVER get back ♪♫ Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer
Rays rank seventh in local television ratings on FSN Florida/SunSports....
Where do the Cubs rank, you ask? 22nd, on CSN Chicago.
Median household income is much lower in Florida than it is in major markets. Also, you have no idea how poorly located the stadium is unless you live in Tampa. There is next to no public transportation like the “L” or the subway. So much of the population in Chicago and New York use light rail to access the stadium, here you must drive and park.
Also, there is a significant retired population (won’t go to games at night) and much lower corporate support for the team as opposed to major markets.
All of these are reasons for the low weekday attendance. Everyone who is interested watches on TV. Weekend attendance is much better when traffic is less of an issue. High speed rail is in the works between Orlando and Tampa, which will help if a future stadium is located along the planned rail corridor. No rail planned near the Trop in my lifetime.
Everyone with any sense of this area knows that the stadium needs to move to the area near the junction of I-4 and I-75, which puts an additional 2 million fans from Orlando/Kissimmee/Lakeland market wihin 1 hour of the stadium. I-4 and I-75 junction is wihtin the above referenced rail corridor.
More than an hour and the casual fan jsut won’t make that trip from Orlando to St. Pete on a weeknight.
City of St. Petersburg approx 18 more years on the lease of the Trop (30 year lease signed in 1998), and has threatened to sue anyone who approaches the Rays about alternate locations under tortious interference. What they seem to miss is that the buyout of the lease costs less with every passing year, and eventually the Rays will just buy out the lease.
Unless the team moves somewhere between Tampa and Orlando (closer to the geographic population center of the region), people will stay home and watch on TV.
I don’t think the playoffs will be an issue…they weren’t in 2008, although there will be some fans of the other teams due to the transplant issue identified above.
One final thought…many people with families are sick and tired of the jackasses that attend sporting events. At Rays games, the incessant cowbell noise wears on me by the 7th inning. I enjoy watching the team, but I only bought tickets to one game this year. So I guess I’m part of the problem. Boo freaking hoo. Move the team within 1/2 hour of my house in downtown Tampa and I’ll probably buy some walk up tickets.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
Interesting.
I knew some of this, but not all of it. The reasons you cite make a lot of sense as to why attendance is so low. It will be interesting to see what their playoff attendance is like.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
One other thing that is pretty well known locally...
Vince Naimoli, the former majority partner, alienated much of the corporate community during his ownership, so Rays have really poor corporate support.
When Sternberg and his group bought the team, they priortized repairing those relationships. But they have a long way to go, and those advance ticket sales are the cash cow the team needs to keep reasonable payroll year after year.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
Not a chance.
Omaha is the 76th TV market — smaller than Des Moines, and you wouldn’t suggest putting a major league team there, would you?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This is why I hate Twitter.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Move the Rays to Kansas City and contract the Royals; rename the Rays the Royals
Move the Marlins to Pittsburgh and contract the Pirates; rename the Marlins the Pirates
Move the Brewers back to the American League – 14 teams in each league – and move Cleveland to the AL East. Problems solved all around.
The Indians won't like that.
So they finish last in the East instead of the Central.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
the cubs
drew 3 million with a 5th place team.these are great fans. the rays just dont have great fans.remember too in fla we make a lot less money. the next night the rays gave away 20 thousand tickets.gone in 90 minutes. there you go. but really the players should shut up.
As many people go for the ballpark and the atmosphere at Wrigley...
…as they do for the games. New, retro designed retractable dome stadium in the right location (closer to Orlando) will increase attendance.
Watch and see what happens in Miami in 2012.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
dont worry
about the postseason.the rays will sell out every game. for some reason when you call it the playoffs and triple the prices now the rays fan wants to go.
Actually, it's the other team's fans that help the postseason sellouts...
Last postseason, we hosted White Sox (lot’s of Chicago transplants here, including me). and the Red Sox. Two big market teams. But thanks for making my point.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
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