Sandberg to be named PCL Manager of the Year
Success as a player and a manager. What else does he have to do to be named our new manager?
over 1 year ago
mrcubsfan
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Good for Ryno
Managing in AAA has got to be difficult with all of the player movement between AAA and the big club. You want to win at AAA, but you know if the big club needs somebody that you’re going to lose a star player at AAA. That’s just the way it works. The award does bolster Ryno’s credentials. I see Fredi Gonzalez as the main competition, but he appears to be the frontrunner for the Braves’ job. I’d like to see Ryno get a crack at the Chicago job.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Good job Ryno
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
I'm not sure I know who I want to be the next Cubs manager.
But I have no problem with it being Ryno.
Wouldn't this be nice to read in a Chicago newspaper next year
In Sandberg’s first season as Cubs manager, the team was a season-high 21 games over .500 entering Thursday’s contest at …
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
As Opposed to 20 Games Under .500 for Chicago
The I-Cubs are 20 games over .500 after Thursday’s loss.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
Good for him
Hope the Mariners are paying attention.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 10:49 AM CDT reply actions
Ryno must have snubbed you when you asked for an autograph a long time ago.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't get your total disregard for Sandberg's candidacy.
I’ll be the first to admit that there MIGHT be a better choice. But I do think a youngish manager is a good idea. And other than Joe Girardi — who won’t be leaving the Bronx — there isn’t anyone available who’s miles and away better than Ryno.
There certainly are better choices
Just look at the resumes.
Think with your heads, not your hearts.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I love how only you get to decide what "subjective" is.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Bruce.
Please don’t infer that I’m thinking with my heart. I’m not.
I’m not sure who’s the best choice. But Sandberg might be lightning in a bottle.
by elgato on Sep 3, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't say you, specifically, were, eg
I know some people really think Sandberg is the right guy — Al, for example — based on his abilities and experience.
But I think a lot if not most Sandberg supporters on this board and in general are doing so out of sentimentality than ability.
(And, honestly, the abilities/experience argument doesn’t hold much water, either, IMHO.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
You have no evidence to support this opinion
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
by Ace Venom on Sep 3, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Plenty of evidence
Just look at some of the posts.
And are you going to tell me that Sandberg’s resume is more impressive than Quade’s?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Lou's resume was more impressive than Girardi's.
That worked out well…
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Two division titles, 97 victories?
Yeah, other than winning the whole enchilada, it did.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Lou's managing was the last thing on the list of things that enabled this orgainzation to win two division titles.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, I disagree with that.
I give Lou a lot of credit for the decisions he made that turned around the 2007 team. Dusty Baker would not have put Theriot at short. He would not have moved Soriano to left or Jacque Jones to center.
Lou was still a good manager in 2008. But the collapse that year, IMO, took a lot out of him. He ran out of ideas/faith that experimenting would work, and he REALLY gave up after the August collapse last year.
He shouldn’t have come back in 2010. But let’s not forget what he did in 2007 and 2008.
The Cubs won 2 division titles because Theriot was the shortstop and Soriano and Jones moved over one position?
LOL
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't say anything about those decisions affecting 2008.
But yes, SWL. Lou’s decisions in 2007 were HUGE. How else can you explain the fact that the team went from nine game under to win the division?
Soriano starting hitting when he moved to left. Theriot could hit, where Cesar Izturis couldn’t. And Jacque Jones, amazingly, had a good second half as the Cubs’ centerfielder.
I can’t believe you’d dispute any of those points. And each of those moves were decisions made by Lou Piniella.
Retort?
2008 was just everyone on the team playing above their heads....
a dead man would have won 90 games with that roster.
Piniella’s moves in 2007 weren’t as big of a deal as his attitude and leadership. Yes moving and playing those guys where he did helped, but I don’t think it made as much of a difference as you think it did. Theriot playing SS was a gusty move that only worked because he was hitting…this was simply Lou using what he had at the time…which he immediately forgot how to do shortly there after.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
So Lou's attitude and leadership ...
were responsible for that team turning things around? Or Lou had nothing to do with it? I’m confused.
I’m not a Lou defender, but he did a very good job with the 2007 team. Moving Soriano to left was a huge move that got the Cubs’ big offseason acquisition to perform. Of course, Theriot at short only worked because he was hitting. But in 2007, HE WAS HITTING, whereas Izturis and Cedeno were not — which was my point. And making Jacque Jones the everyday centerfielder was a big deal.
Lou didn’t just used what he had at the time. He used them in ways that made the team win. And that’s a big part of being a good manager.
I’ll agree with you regarding the 2008 team, and Lou, after August 2009 was an awful manager. But give credit where it’s due for his first season.
I just did...
but moving Soriano back to the position where he had played the previous year after he was slumping wasn’t rocket science.
Replacing Izturis with a player that could actually get on base wasn’t out of the box thinking.
Putting Jones in center field was simply a reaction to moving Soriano with what was on the roster.
Those guys hitting can be attributed somewhat to Lou, so yes, I give him alot of credit for 2007…but the bulk of Lou’s work as a manager in Chicago was borderline neglect and mostly bad.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Good enough.
I would say that putting Jones in center (a position he hadn’t played in years) and Theriot at short (where he was never expected to play) were gutsy moves that paid off.
I wonder about 2009, though. Lou had a team with a boatload of injuries in first place by early August, and then it melted down. Now, Lou’s responsible for the melt down, but was he neglectful for the first four months? I guess it really doesn’t matter.
Theriot played 274 of his 583 minor league games @ SS.
It wasn’t like putting a career 1st baseman @ SS.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
But no one expected him to be a SS in the majors.
Lou gambled that Theriot’s lack of range would be mitigated by his bat and his speed. And, in 2007, it was.
It was a good gamble that the team’s previous manager would not have tried.
you are aware Jones was a CF in Minn
not that gutsy as you are making it
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
I didn't say anything about those decisions affecting 2008.
But yes, SWL. Lou’s decisions in 2007 were HUGE. How else can you explain the fact that the team went from nine game under to win the division?
Soriano starting hitting when he moved to left. Theriot could hit, where Cesar Izturis couldn’t. And Jacque Jones, amazingly, had a good second half as the Cubs’ centerfielder.
I can’t believe you’d dispute any of those points. And each of those moves were decisions made by Lou Piniella.
Retort?
If some of the Ryno supporters
applied their critieria to real-world situations, they’d be laughed out of a human-relations office.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
You missed my point.
Which is Girardi turned out to be an excellent manager. But no one knew that at the time of the Lou hiring. The same could be said for Sandberg. He may turn out to be an average manger, he may be something great. But like Giardi, no one knows for sure.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Girardi had been groomed for years
because he showed aptitude and intellect as a player and as a coach.
Sandberg had shown neither.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Good aptitude
to perhaps be manager of the Royals or the Mariners, sure. Not for this team, not for this time.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions
You keep saying this, and it doesn't really make any sense
How often do managers jump to better jobs? This isn’t college sports. Ron Gardenhire isn’t leaving to manage a high payroll team after this year. If a guy is successful, he usually stays put.
The implication is that Sandberg
is the second coming of the next great manager.
I don’t think he is.
If Hendry indeed is looking for a manager who has major-league experience (as has been reported in at least one media outlet), that makes all this moot, because Sandberg wouldn’t qualify.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, it would make it moot
People want to hire Sandberg for a number of reasons, and obviously you have a right to disagree with them. I don’t see anyone claiming he’s a genius, just that they’d like him to be the manager.
But why?
I think most people who want him as manager want him because of affection they have for him as a player, not because of accomplishment.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, you do think that....
and you don’t really have anything other than you’re own wild guess to base that on.
I think people want Bob Brenley to be the next manager because of the affection they have for his mustache.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
That's your assumption
And likely a big reason why you get in disagreements with people in these threads.
Regardless, there are people who also want him to be manager because he’s familiar with the minor leaguers, and now he’s being honored as the PCL manager of the year. Does the familiarity have an effect on people? I dunno, probably. But in the end, we really don’t know much at all about any of these managers, or else we’d be debating something other than experience all the time.
Tell me NBF...
Have you seen anyone post something on BCB along the lines of…
“I don’t care what kind of job Ryno’s already done as manager, I want him to manage the Cubs because I just wuvved him so much as a player. He is my all-time favoritest player. He’s the bestest Cub of all!!!”
(Mmmmm…. smack smack smooch… hugs, kisses, mmmm)
Because I sure haven’t.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I haven't....or have I?
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
You do that awfully well, bh
Maybe not quite like that, but in the same vein? Absolutely.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I think this is the problem people have with you
You dismiss anyone who supports Ryno or doesn’t think he’d be terrible as falling under the vein of “BEST PLAYER EVAH!”
I think we’d like you to actually explain rather than out of hand dismissing.
I've explained
until I’m blue in the face.
You just don’t like the explanation.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, you haven't.
You’ve explained your position. However, many people (myself included) have pointed out that our support of Sandberg is NOT because we liked him as a player. It’s perfectly reasonable to disagree on this.
Your disagreement, however, has often been disagreeable.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think you and a few others
are the exception.
I think again, most of the support for Sandberg is based on sentimentality and emotions than on resume and results, particularly in contrast with others being considered for the job.
Now I’m really, really tired of playing ring-around-the-rosey with you and others who just can’t seem to understand how anybody could be opposed to their golden boy getting this job. Enough.
If you want to devote this Web site to a 24/7 Ryno circle jerk, be my guest. But that gets old quick.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I think again, most of the support for Sandberg is based on sentimentality and emotions than on resume and results, particularly in contrast with others being considered for the job.
This is your opinion. I see no evidence that this is true, nor have you provided any such evidence.
Far from making it any “24/7 Ryno” (and I won’t use the profane phrase you used) site, I give plenty of space to anyone who wants to promote another candidate. Everyone knows my choice and is free to disagree — as long as they do it reasonably.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
"Ryno isn't the best choice, but he's the right choice"
is the title of just one post on this site.
I’m also talking about Cubs fans beyond this site, not just here.
Maybe you should read some of the Ryno-for-king posts here with a clear, unbiased view, Al.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions
The last thing you need is Al reconsidering the merit of BCB posts and posters.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 4, 2010 7:28 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've not liked the explanation
because I’ve never seen one.
I’ve never taken a position on who should be the next manager. I don’t know enough about the candidates to have an opinion on that. So I read these threads to learn more about them.
"We need to replace the retiring manager at the central office!"
“How about promoting our top-performing branch manager? He’s winning all kinds of accolades around the industry. Plus, he used to work here at the central office, and our customers and current employees just revere him. And some of our competitors want to hire him if we don’t.”
“GET OUT OF MY OFFICE.”
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 3, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
....
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
So writes the guy
with a picture of the Golden Boy as his avatar. No bias there.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions
How about this
There are branch managers in other organizations with better track records and resumes! And we could use some different philosophies than the ones we have now! Let’s get the best employee, not the most convenient one!
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Certainly not taking someone
inbred in a culture of 102 years of losing.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Wait.
You often say — and I agree with you — that “the pressure of winning here may be more than anyone can bear.”
Both Lou Piniella and Dusty Baker said, as outsiders coming in, that they had no idea what they were getting into when they came here.
Ryne Sandberg understands what he’d be getting into. So would Joe Girardi. Most of the rest of them don’t.
I’m not saying that’s the only reason. But it does matter.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Girardi understands
but also has some skins on the wall. Sandberg doesn’t.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 4, 2010 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions
who is to say that these "branch managers"
want the job, knwoing the track record as well as the comments of the prior people who were in that position?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
So Quade is more qualified because he managed more games in MLB?
I’ll be sure to give Alan Trammell a call to tell him he was robbed.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
No
Because he’s managed more games in the minor leagues and spent more time on a major-league bench.
He absolutely is more qualified than Sandberg is.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Not worth arguing
I have better things to do with my time. Considering that Ryno’s AAA season isn’t done yet, it’s a bit premature.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
I wonder what will happen....
….in NBF’s mind if the infallible Jim Hendry hires the indefensible Ryne Sandberg?
Oh, silly me. There’s always an excuse for Hendry. I suppose that the Ricketts will have made Hendry do it.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 3, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nah, it's been done
(see: Bradley, Milton)
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 4, 2010 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks for proving my point
Because Quade is more qualified than Sandberg. That is beyond dispute.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't prove your point
I believe Sandberg is still more qualified than Quade. Something about the letters HoF.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).
Free BLou
Playing careers of managers
really aren’t relevant.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
How about "performance as minor league manager"?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Sep 3, 2010 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions
How about
“performance on a major-league bench’?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
You continue to promote Joey Cora because he has a ring as a 3B coach.
I don’t think that means all that much.
I said they should take a look at him
I didn’t say they should hire him.
Quit misrepresenting my position.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Where did I claim you said they should hire him?
I’ll let someone else examine the hypocrisy of you telling someone to quit misrepresenting his/her position.
What else does "promote" mean?
Not only that, but Al accused me of the same thing recently. He’s wrong.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I simply said you were promoting him
Which could mean promoting the idea of him being hired, or to be looked at as a serious candidate.
I think he should be a serious candidate
I know the Mariners are taking a good look at him. I realize he’s no Ryno, but …
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sure Cora has many of the skills it takes to be a successful manager
Obviously time will tell. I just don’t think a world series ring as a 3B coach is some sort of trump card.
Fine.
You think that’s important. That’s a reasonable position. Some of us don’t think that’s as important. However, you don’t seem to consider that a reasonable position — which it clearly is.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He knows that Sandberg is dumb. That's all he needs.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Compared to you, SWL,
Ryno is a Nobel laureate.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Compared to that statement
He’s a Rhodes Scholar
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 4, 2010 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
And your hatred of him just seems like it fills your need to a contrarian.
I’m not sure I’ve seen you make a real argument about it other than “go look, duh, it’s obvious.”
by Arbusto on Sep 3, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't need to be a contrarian
If he was the best guy for the job, I’d say so.
But he’s far from it.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
But that's the point.
We’re a bunch of goofball fans. How in the hell can we evaluate this?
Now, if we were talking about Terry Bevington, or Jim Essian, that would be something else. But Sandberg might be a better manager than Quade even though Quade has more experience.
My first choice would be Joe Girardi. Failing that, I don’t think the fate of the Cubs will rest on whether Ryne Sandberg, Mike Quade or Fredi Gonzalez gets the job.
I can respect that view, eg
And I want Girardi, too. But I don’t see how you can put Fredi Gonzalez’s experience on a par with Sandberg’s.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not putting their experiences on the same level.
But, it’s possible, that Sandberg will say the right things in the interview, and Gonzalez won’t. Experience is important. But Sandberg might bring other things to the table, in Hendry’s eyes, that make him the choice.
I understand what you're saying.
There are some posters around here (Ivy Walls comes to mind) who are sanctifying Sandberg because of a HOF career and four good years in the minors.
That’s wrong — and it shouldn’t have anything to do with who is hired. But there are just as many posters who think Sandberg is the right choice for non-sentimental reasons. Or there are some, like me, who just don’t know — but don’t object to Sandberg’s candidacy.
Sandberg could have the world’s best interview. Quade could have the world’s worst. Fredi Gonzalez might get the job.
You can question whether Jim Hendry is the guy who can be making these decisions. But it’s tough to second-guess choices — especially choices that haven’t been made yet — when we don’t have access to all the info. Especially when none of the contenders for the job appear to be foolish considerations.
I don’t think YOU think that Sandberg is woefully under-qualified. You just think that he’s not qualified enough AND that some fans are leading with their hearts.
Fans’ hearts won’t make this decision. Jim Hendry will. And none of the choices that we know of will be disasters.
There are two that would be, eg
Bobby Valentine. And Ryne Sandberg.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I do not want Bobby Valentine.
But Ryne Sandberg will not be a disaster. And, anyway, if he’s hired, we’ll never know if someone else would have done a better job.
Sandberg won't be a disaster, Bruce.
And I think Gonzalez will be heading to Atlanta. That leaves Sandberg and Quade. And Sandberg’s interview results might put him ahead of Quade.
Remember that Quade isn’t Joe Torre in terms of experience.
If you rank the candidates based on managerial/coaching accomplishment,
Ryno comes up near the bottom of the list, eg. No matter how it’s sliced.
This particular franchise can’t afford to screw up this hire right now. On that, I think we can concur.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions
But the managerial/coaching accomplishments ...
don’t tell the whole story. That’s all I’m saying.
And that's what I mean
about the heart-over-head thing, eg.
I’ll respectfully agree to disagree with you on this point. Still enjoy talking baseball with you.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Well said
All anyone argues about is experience. To me, that’s pretty far down the list on what I’d be looking for in a manager.
Why?
If you were hiring someone for a senior position in a company, you wouldn’t put a value on experience?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course I'd put a value on experience
His managing philosophy, however, would trump it. And no one seems that interested in debating that in these threads.
I'd like to know what that is
I agree that part has been overlooked.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions
It is, but "playing the game hard"
can (and should) apply to any manager. Ever hear a manger say, “We don’t want players to play the game hard”?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions
He said it would be on the list...
which I take to mean experience does have value to shoemile. He just doesn’t put as much value in it as you do.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Right.
Also, in the example above, wouldn’t you also seriously consider an in-house employee who has done an exemplary job in a position that’s considered a possible stepping stone to the job being filled?
That’s exactly what’s happening here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
No
Because the job should go to the person with the most experience, period. That person should hold the job until they die, and then they should be replaced with the next person with the most experience.
If it’s good enough for the Mormon Church, it’s good enough for the Cubs.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 3, 2010 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I respect that you want more
Than a HOF ex-player, and a good minor league manager…
I also take into consideration what everyone that has played for him has said about him.
I also take into consideration that he would " manage the right way" just as he played. I’m not trying to be sentimental, or trying to think with my heart.
Part of “managing the right way” is going out and trying to get The gm to sign the right players, and develop young players into the players he wants them to be.
by bilbosbuttons on Sep 3, 2010 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm amazed that anybody would predict a disaster.
Sandberg, Quade, Gonzalez … they all seem promising. And we won’t get Girardi and Valentine won’t be the manager.
I’m not that concerned about any of the likely options. They all SEEM FINE.
I'm more excited about any of them
Than I was at the lou’s signing. And I wasn’t against the lou signing.
I just think that therenis a lot to say about the character of ryno. I know he would pursue players like him as a player and try to develop them as much as possible.
I think enough cannot be said about the willpower and determination of a strong person with a goal
by bilbosbuttons on Sep 3, 2010 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
That's fair.
Sandberg was my favorite Cub growing up. But I’d be fine with Gonzalez, and I think I’d be fine with Quade.
Bobby V would make me cry. And I loathe Tony LaRussa. But otherwise …
I'm with you.
I’m not sure who’s the best choice either. Right now I like Sandberg. Tomorrow I may learn something about one of the other candidates and change my mind. But I am sick of the insulting insinuations that by choosing Sandberg I’m thinking with my heart rather than my head.
"Fasten those seatbelts!"-Pat Hughes
Gee I actually gave Lou one year of managing
before seeing he was a bad manager. I also based my opinion on watching what he actually did as a manager. Most people did not agree with me till this year, but again at least I gave him a chance and looked at what he did. I prefer Gonzalez, but Sandberg is a perfectly reasonable choice based on what he has done and not sentiment.
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Sep 3, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
No kidding...
NBF is acting like everyone is claiming him to be a messiah or something.
by bilbosbuttons on Sep 3, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Look at the posts
Most of them are.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh bullshit...
People want to give him a shot because they genuinely believe he’s earned it.
People are vouching and supporting. If anything, I would think that if anyone has messiah stated here it would be girardi.
by bilbosbuttons on Sep 3, 2010 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stop this part of the thread right here.
I’ve had enough. Everyone go have dinner or a drink or both and clear your heads.
This is getting ridiculous.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'll beg off, Al.
But I didn’t think this thread was THAT bad.
Good night.
I confess, I've seen worse
but anyway …
Take care, eg.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm done too...
I’m up in arms over this one…
by bilbosbuttons on Sep 3, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions
well, Lou had a good resume, so there was nothing to doubt
and his resume was better than Girardi’s, right?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
if that were the case,and you looked at resumes only
many coaches and managers never would have been given a chance, and one of the best and current examples is Mike Tomlin who had a much lesser resume than others interviewing for the job.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Which kid are you?
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Sep 3, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Please don't be the kid in the Dallas Cowboy jacket.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
That's Tony Romo
can’t you tell?
"They come to see me strike out, hit a home run, or run into a fence. I try to accommodate them at least one way every game." - Gorman Thomas
by RiskyBusiness on Sep 3, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
the one with your back to him, who is behind him?
you snubbed him
/sarcasm
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
At least you stood next to him
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Heart and head together makes him the right choice.
It would be nice for a Cubsman to run the team and my head tells me he’s won at every managerial level so why not?
This is only the beginning....Lou Pinella end of '07 season and Chicago Transit Authority (the band when they were really good).
he may very well get the job
and he might be qualified enough (that is for Hendry to decide), but using the “won at every managerial level” argument seems a bit weak to me, as the difference between managing in the majors and the minors is huge. There is so much more data and information that needs to be looked at and analyzed in this day and age, and Sandberg isn’t exactly considered a “new school” guy (I believe he’s acknowledged himself as “old school”). When you factor in that the Cubs of 2011 and 2012 are going to be a squad with flaws (as of now – no real good top of the order hitter, free swinging bats in the middle), well, those are the factors that make me question if Sandberg is the right guy when there are candidates, on paper, that would seem stronger and better, at least to me.
Now, all this said, if Sandberg is the guy and hires a good bench coach that offers a contrast to his style (I always thought Trammell was a little too Lou-lite), then it could work. And heck, maybe I’m off, maybe Sandberg can work it with this current squad. But i think there are more than enough reasons on why there should be some pause when debating Sandberg as the manager. as I’ve noted, he’d either be 2nd or 3rd on my list of preferred options (that I think are realistic) so it’s not like I’m dismissing Sandberg. In another time, another squad, I might think he was the perfect guy for the job, and he very well might be the right guy for the job. I simply think that there are more than enough questions about his managerial capability, resume, and background to at least give pause to the idea that he should be the surefire pick if Girardi says no (and I’m not sure how much I would want Girardi, but I’m not even pondering it, as I don’t think he leaves).
on the other side of the coin
Sandberg would be great fgor kids like Cashner, Colvin, Castro and so on. He has worked with so many kids while making his way up the rankings, that i feel more confident in him than the Cubs past few managers (Quade doesnt count) in that area. Knowing we likely are writing off 2011 and going with a lot of youth (opinion only, not saying its fact) it makes sense to me to have Ryno there.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
sure
but i can also argue that Quade knows the kids, having been on the big league staff, met with them in ST, and so forth. When you factor in his big league coaching and current managing experience, wouldn’t that be a trump card over the “knows the kids” argument, with the only advantage on Ryno’s column being that, he’s a HOF Cub player?
Again, I’m not against Ryno, but when you go down the checklist of things, Quade has everything Ryno has from a managerial style and experience perspective, and Quade is probably a bit more “new school” than Ryno is. Both focus on fundamentals, both are regarded as good teachers that can keep discipline while building a good rapport with the players. Add in his big league experience as a coach, and really, the only thing is, does Ryno’s status carry him over someone like Quade? You can’t even really use the “Ryno understands the pressure” argument for Ryno vs. Quade, because Quade grew up in the area, and he’s been in the org and big league staff.
At the end of the day, I think these are two quality candidates, and I won’t have a big issue if Ryno is the manager, provided that he puts together a good staff that addresses certain areas of concern I have. I’m just not sold that Ryno is the right manager at this moment in Cubs history. The pressure’s going to be ratcheted up a notch if Ryno is hired, and the organization isn’t really in a position to win, unless they are able to make a solid series of moves this offseason and get lucky.
and all you said about Quade makes sense
and is why I hope if Ryno is the manager, Quade gets good consideration as bench coach and is willing to work with Ryno.
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
If Ryno is the manager
I’ll be pulling for Quade to be the bench coach, although as I’ve expressed elsewhere, I think he’ll move on to another organization. I know it’s reportedly something that’s being tossed around/speculated on.
I simply believe, at this juncture in time, that Quade is a better candidate, and would probably prefer seeing Quade get the manager’s job with Ryno as perhaps his bench coach. All that said, I’m fully aware that Ryno is the betting money right now.
If Ryno is the manager I’ll be pulling for Quade to be the bench coach, although as I’ve expressed elsewhere, I think he’ll move on to another organization.
Possible. There may be offers out there for him, but if not, I could see that as a very plausible scenario (Quade as Sandberg’s bench coach).
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Stan Hack
Hack was really the last Cubs manager who had a long, good career with the Cubs as a player. I’m not counting Bruce Kimm, Don Zimmer, Joey Amalfitano, and Bob Scheffing, who spent time as players with the Cubs before managing the team. They weren’t anywhere close to being as good as Ryno was.
Several years after Hack managed, Charlie Grimm came back to manage the Cubs for 17 games in 1960. Grimm had a lot of good years as a player with the Cubs, but most of his managing was done before Hack took over the job. Other than Ernie Banks, Stan Hack didn’t have much with which to work from 1954-1956 as a manager.
I hope that Sandberg has a better record, if hired, than Hack had. I believe Ryno would be dealing with more talent.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
This Sandberg/talent argument is interesting
A lot of people derided Dusty because he apparently couldn’t manage well with mediocre players but was good with good players. Now people apparently want to make sure Sandberg has good players to manage.
Wouldn’t it be more of a test of his managerial ability, and his acumen, if he got the best out of mediocre players? After all, that was a criticism of Dusty.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Mediocre Talent and "Paying Dues"
Ryno better learn to work with mediocre talent, if he wants to manage the Cubs in 2011. If he gets the job, we are going to find out a lot about how well he can really manage next year. He’s done a good job in the minors. I know seeing “paid his dues” is vomit inducing. If you know anything about the minors, some have to pay more dues than others. On one hand, the four seasons he has spent in the minors show that the Cubs didn’t want to hand him anything on a silver platter. That’s good for the Cubs. On the other hand, there are a ton of others that have spent a lot more than four years managing in the minors that have never sniffed a big league job.
"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray
If the Cubs
are going to rely on Starlin Castro, Tyler Colvin, Andrew Cashner, Darwin Barney, etc, it does make some sense to have a manager already very familiar with them.
Uhmmmmmmmmmm....if you get the best out of mediocre players
they’ll still only get marginally better.
So, if you have a whole team worth of mediocre players playing their best, which would be slightly above mediocre, they likely still wouldn’t beat a team of good players under a bad manager (See Dusty Baker and this years Reds).
Bobby Cox has managed some pretty dismal Braves teams, does that mean he’s a bad manager?
The Cubs are horrible this year, so what does that say about Lou’s acumen?
It's observations like this that make me wonder why there's so much hand wringing over the next manager
If the manager is good with good players and poor with poor players, then why don’t we just focus on getting good players?
I say we get
average, mediocre players just to see if Ryno can manage. If he finishes under .500 next year fire him, then hire Jody Davis. If Davis finishes under .500 with the same players fire him, repeat and rinse.
Hack
only got the job because Phil Cavaretta was honest with PK Wrigley and told him the Cubs weren’t very good. So Wrigley fired him. The Cubs in 1954 went 64-90, one game worse than the year before.
We do not want to hire managers like PK did.
Value of a Manager
It’s so hard to say what a manager’s value is in terms of managerial decisions translating to wins. In the end, it seems like a manager can really hurt your chances to win with bad decisions, but there doesn’t seem to be a ton he can do to make a team play better. End of game pitching decisions, lineup order, and clubhouse management seem to be the obvious things. I’m sure there are other areas the manager affects, but it’s really hard to quantify the value of managerial decisions. I’m not saying a baseball manager is only a figure head, but I think a lot of the value of a manager is as a figure head (kind of like the Presidency).
That said, Sandberg as a sentimental favorite is not that ridiculous a notion. Morale is low in Chicago right now. Maybe what this team and its fans need is the golden boy to come home and rescue the franchise. Now, I’ll admit there is just as much chance (or more) that Sandberg falls on his face and its a fiasco. At the end of the day, that’s probably the decision: would the Cubs rather risk the fallout if Sandberg fails, or risk the fallout if we pass over the fan favorite and he goes to another team (and potentially succeeds)?
by Bradsbeard on Sep 3, 2010 12:50 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Congrats to Ryne.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Good job Ryno
you have done well. I sure hope next year you are in Chicago taking a team into the playoffs.
Look, everyone.
We all know NBF’s position on Ryne Sandberg. He has repeated it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and frankly, even I am getting kind of sick of hearing it.
I am tired of the namecalling that has appeared in this post. EVERYONE STOP IT, RIGHT FREAKING NOW.
If I see it happen one more time in this post, I am closing comments here.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm amazed that no one is stating the obvious.
Sandberg, Girardi, Brenly, Quade, Valentine, Listach……
If the Cubs do not improve the starting rotation, the bullpen, and the offense, (in other words, the whole shebang) it won’t matter who is managing next year. Players win and lose games, not the manager. It’s hard to quantify a manager’s real value to a team. Managers who win always have good players on their teams, and managers who lose oftentimes (though not always) are simply trying to make chicken salad out of chicken…..well, you get the point.
Put it this way, if we narrow it down to Sandberg, Brenly, Quade, or Girardi (just in case he becomes available), then the way I look at it, we’re going to get a good manager regardless.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Sep 3, 2010 6:45 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I've said this numerous times....it almost as if some of us think that the next manager will be the difference between a WS and last place.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Sep 3, 2010 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Dunn player / manager
now we win it all………
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
I gotta tell you guys..
I don’t care what kind of job Ryno’s already done as manager, I want him to manage the Cubs because I just wuved him so much as a player. He is my all-time favoritest player. He’s the bestest Cub of all!!!
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
by Cubbiegoon on Sep 3, 2010 7:07 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
A-HA!
The truth comes out!!!!! ;-)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 3, 2010 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Way to make a liar out of me, Cubbiegoon
I won’t soon forget this…
(shakes fist)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
me reky thees awesum postage
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Choosing Ryno would be the safe choice with regards to the fan base
but I am still not sure it is the smart choice
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
Ryno
I want Ryno because the CUbs have always had ugly managers and he’s just so darn hot even at 51! I know that a hot manager is what the Cubs have always needed. He just makes me swoon!
(please everyone know I’m being silly)
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
This argument is ridiculous.
The funniest part of it, is NBF elevating Quade as a more qualified candidate no matter what the circumstance is, because of “experience.”
That’s like saying your starting QB should be a crusty Drew Bledsoe instead of the young Tom Brady, because Bledsoe has more “experience.”
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
I'll challenge that
I’m fine if Ryno’s the manager, but the Brady-Bledsoe comparison, I just don’t see.
Look at it this way – what exactly does Ryno offer that Quade doesn’t? From a managerial perspective, both are viewed as solid teachers, both emphasize fundamentals. Quade is a bit more “new school” than Ryno, which I view as a plus, considering the makeup of the team. Go down the list of things you want in a manager, and Quade and Ryno are fairly equal. Let’s not underestimate Quade being a bit more “new school” than Ryno – this is a team with flaws that will take some roster finagling, and Quade’s experience in the A’s system should be viewed as a positive. Both are viewed as guys that can keep order in the clubhouse, instill discipline, while also building a good rapport with guys.
Ryno’s advantage really comes down to his “status” as a Cubs icon, something Quade can’t match. Yet, you can’t really use the “Ryno understands the pressure” argument because Quade grew up in the area, has been in the organization for a long time, and has been on the staff. You can’t even use the “Ryno knows the kids” argument, because Quade has been in the system, he’s met most of the kids at ST, he’s been with Castro/Cashner and others this year. Heck, I think the “counter” makes more sense – that hiring Ryno ratchets up the pressure at a time when the organization needs a lot of luck to be competitive.
Look, I’m not going to have an issue if Ryno is the manager, particularly if he hires a staff that I believe will address some concerns that I have (and if he is the manager, I hope Quade will stick as a bench coach, although I have my doubts). I simply believe, when you stack up both sides, that Quade has the advantage. You might note that I haven’t even argued the major league experience argument yet. Does Ryno’s status carry the day? At the end of the day, it might. This isn’t to say Ryno isn’t qualified – rather that Quade is more qualified than Ryno right now.
As such, I really don’t see this Brady-Bledsoe comparison.
Ok...
It’s more like the Rams naming AJ Feely (a journeyman in the league for 10 years with very little playing time), as the starting QB, over #1 draft pick Sam Bradford.
Your franchise isn’t going to go anywhere with Feely, despite his “experience.” But with the rookie Bradford, you have the potential for great things to happen. So, you go with Bradford.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
eh
I’d disagree with that comparison as well, as it implies that Quade isn’t as capable as a manager as Ryno. I just don’t see these comparisons. Quade is very highly regarded.
Put it this way – the difference between Bradford and Feeley are the tools. There is no difference in managerial capability that I can see as of now between Quade/Sandberg.
Quade started his managing career in 1985 in the minor leagues.
1985! He managed minor league baseball teams for 20+ years, and never really got on the radar for a major league job.
That should tell you something…
He’s like the Bobby Scales of manager prospects.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
A lot of managers
aren’t as lucky to be HOF guys that are fast-tracked. I wouldn’t read too much into that. A lot of guys that could be good managers don’t get the opportunity for one reason or another.
Let’s put it another way, what are the deficiencies with Quade? I’ve pointed out the two concerns I have with Ryno as a manager, and that didn’t even include the experience question.
What are the concerns with Quade, who is about the same age as Ryno? I just don’t see the concerns.
I’m fully cognizant that Ryno is the betting money guy. I’m also okay with Ryno as the manager, provided that he addresses the concerns with good staff hires. I just don’t think your comparisons hold. In Bledsoe’s case, his lack of mobility was a problem, despite having the better arm. In Feeley’s case, he’s just not that good. There were clear issues with each guy that led to the younger guy taking over.
What is the issue with Quade, then?
If he is the Bobby Scales of managers
Why is he not the starting manager in Sept.?
"Lou Piniella's been a great manager for a long time and I stand by him completely"
Jim Hendry
by Doggie Stalker on Sep 5, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Quade is the starting manger currently
or am I missing something?
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
No, you're not missing anything.
Jessica had to take one last swipe at Lou.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
ok, we should call Lou back this season
he has more experience than Ryno adn Quade do together. how about we see what Sparky Anderson thinks as well. Better yet, many against Ryno due to experience have also said they are against Tony LaRussa who would be much more experienced and has won the WS as well. TLR should be a guarantee based on resume alone.
I used Mike Tomlin above as a perfect example when the Steelers hired him instead of the many more experienced coaches, and it has worked fine. Only time will tell if Ryno is right or not, but to say he is not right due to experience is the same as saying Castro should have stayed in AAA since Theriot had more excperience at SS
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
if that's directed towards me
I would note that I haven’t argued experience above. My main argument as to why I have Quade ahead of Ryno right now is because the makeup of the squad requires a creative, forward thinking “new school” type manager. Quade is a bit more in that mold than Ryno, which Ryno himself has acknowledged in interviews (that Ryno is old school). When you factor in that Quade brings in old school elements, and is considered a good teacher who has a great work ethic, and I think that’s a big plus for Quade.
I’ve also argued in the past that Quade’s experience in different organizations is a benefit to a Cubs organization that, until recently, tended to not be as innovative, creative.
The experience argument, though, can’t be thrown aside. I didn’t make the argument above, the amount of information that a major league manager needs to process, the amount of responsibilities a major league manager has, it far dwarfs what is needed in the minors. Another small point I’ve tried to make is that Ryno actually brings more pressure at a time when the organization is not in the best position possible.
All that said, I’m not against Ryno as manager. I simply believe that Quade is a better candidate than Ryno right now.
not directed to anyone in particular, just keeping it inline with the chain
Chronologically inept since 2060
"I could be writing this crap!" -- Crow T. Robot
Me: Q: I can run but not walk. Wherever I go, thought follows close behind. What am I?
Wrigster A: Theriot
Regarding Quade...
… one has to ask the question, with all this “experience”, why has he not been offered a manager’s job up to now?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
One could have asked the same about Joe Maddon in 2005, no?
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 5, 2010 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe.
Maddon served as interim manager of the Angels twice, in 1996 and 1999, when he was quite a bit younger than Quade is now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yes, I thought about adding that
So, why was he good enough to be interim, but not permanent?
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 6, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
It was the glasses
I don’t think they were cool enough for Southern California
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
opportunity, circumstance
who knows. There’s only a handful of jobs.
Success as a player and a manager. What else does he have to do to be named our new manager?
What does success as a player have anything to do with success as a manager?
Indeed.
Ted Williams is a good example.
by Shanghai Badger on Sep 6, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
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