Carlos Zambrano Solid Again; Cubs Win Third Straight. With Z: Now What?
by Al Yellon on Sep 4, 2010 4:05 PM CDT
in Chicago Cubs Recaps
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PrintAbout two hours before today's 5-3 Cubs win over the Mets, Mets starting pitcher Jenrry Mejia exited a taxi outside Wrigley Field near the corner of Addison & Sheffield and pleasantly signed autographs for a couple dozen fans (many in Mets garb) before entering the park.
This is pretty unusual for a starter on the day of his turn; usually they want to be more focused than that, and Mejia, who was making his first major league start, was just as pleasant to the Cubs over his 5 innings of work. The Cubs knocked out eight hits and scored four runs off Mejia, the last of those four on a wild pitch, and the Cubs added a run on Aramis Ramirez's 21st home run of the season. The Cubs now have two players with 70 or more RBI (Alfonso Soriano with 72), so there's a pretty good shot that one of these guys will make a run and finish with 90 or more. No player has led the Cubs in RBI in a non-strike season with fewer than 90 since Mark Grace led the 1989 NL East champions with 79.
Meanwhile, Carlos Zambrano was stating his case -- again -- for the 2011 rotation. What do you do now? As I said after Z's last outing, I was one of those in favor of trading him no matter what after his meltdown at the Cell. But now? He's 4-0 in six starts since his return, with a 1.98 ERA and 30 strikeouts in 36.1 innings in those starts. The walks were a concern, but he walked only two today (22 walks in those 36.1 innings) and gave up just three singles and a home run to Ike Davis, his only real mistake.
Meanwhile, the Cubs were having offensive fun against Mejia and three other Mets relievers before Bobby Parnell came in with two out and no one on in the eighth and stopped the Cubs from scoring more runs. Interestingly, Mike Quade had James Russell get up and join Carlos Marmol in the bullpen in case the Cubs had scored enough to take the save situation away. This is not a criticism of Lou Piniella, but he probably would not have done that, letting Marmol pitch anyway.
As it turned out, the Cubs did not score and Marmol came in and struck out the side (and allowed a single to Davis). His 118 strikeouts are now more than any Cub who has pitched exclusively in relief except for Bruce Sutter, who struck out 129 in 1977 (in 107.1 innings; Marmol has, to date, thrown 65.1 innings).
Starlin Castro went 2-for-4 and raised his average to .321, at this writing two points behind Joey Votto and ten behind Carlos Gonzalez. The wild card in the batting race is the Braves' Omar Infante, who is hitting .341 but with only 383 plate appearances, not enough to show up in the qualified leaders -- yet.
The wind died down a bit from yesterday, though gave both home run balls today a bit of a boost, and bright sunshine beamed down on about 30,000 of the announced 39,473 (my estimate of how many were actually in the park). A handful of people appeared at gate K on Waveland between 2 and 2:30, who had evidently not heard about the change in starting time, thinking they were early for the game, originally scheduled for 3:10. Some of them came in; others just walked away.
One more note on Z. His eight strikeouts today give him 1411 for his career, moving him ahead of Kerry Wood (1407) on the all-time Cub list. Fergie Jenkins leads the list with 2038; Charlie Root had 1432, which Z could eclipse before the end of this season. Will he get a chance to move up further in future years?
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What to do with Z?
My thought process was to see how things played out after he got back into the rotation. Sending him to the bullpen in the first place was a mistake – it’s just not his mentality. I really don’t think the Cubs will be able to unload him, so let’s keep him as the #3 starter.
Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!
There's a chance Z would not be piching this well if he had been starting all long.
Or perhaps he would have been pitching better sooner. Maybe the anger classes are really helping him, perhaps in combination with his family issues he has found his grove. As Quade said, ’He’s a calmer dude." This is good news whether we keep him or trade him.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Sep 4, 2010 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions
This is sort of my thinking, as well
If he really needed some form of therapy to help him sort things out, then I’m glad he got it, even if it was (essentially) forced upon him. Correlation may not equal causation here, but there’s no denying the fact that he’s been a much more effective pitcher since coming back than he was beforehand.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Therapy
and maybe medication. One reason for a several-week departure from work is to allow the body to adjust to medication under less stressful conditions. Many treatments for anxiety and depression take months to build up in the body to an effective level. I don’t want to speculate too much, but given Z’s background and church affiliation, he probably would have been reluctant to use antidepressants.
This is the kind of information the club, including the players, would have that we as fans do not. If they are convinced Zambrano has changed, I would not be at all surprised to see him on the team again next year.
Somebody take Aramis' bat off the restricted list, please.
circumstantially this appears to be the case
Therapy almost invariably involves medication. Anger management is a broad stroke for what is the particular reason. The trick in competitive sports or competitive professional ranks is not to nip the edge an athlete or professional possesses while addressing the obstacles that now effect them.
If Z shows progress his talent is exceptional and he will be with the club
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
I've said all along we should keep Z. Don't give him a huge contract but
I say we keep him especially since not many other teams will want him and he will be a solid 3 or 4 starter.
Dear Jim: Hi. I'm Mike. Get Ryno in there. Ok bye. ---Mike
He already has a contract
so that is not an issue. Signed thru 2012 with a $19M option for 2013. If his contract was up this year I think the Cubs would just say goodbye.
by LT on Sep 4, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Mostly referring to when his contract is up.
For now though I’d keep him.
Dear Jim: Hi. I'm Mike. Get Ryno in there. Ok bye. ---Mike
I wouldn't worry
about his contract status, that is two years away. I still think that if an acceptable return can be had, you move him. It is only a matter of time until his tantrums resurface, and four starts is not enough to convince me that he is back to his 2003-2006 level of performance. The base issue is still that he underperforms relative to his contract, the tantrums are just an added yearly headache.
Obviously the Cubs should keep him if they can’t get better value back than a 3rd starter being paid 18.5 million, but I think that some combination of injury risk & bad contract can be taken back to justify moving Z. This might mean acquiring a former star producer (Carlos Beltran) who has been knocked down by injuries, or a decent performer with a bad contract that can help the Cubs in another spot.
Hopefully Z’s performance since returning has raised his value beyond a swap for Oliver Perez & Luis Castillo.
I still think that if an acceptable return can be had, you move him.
That’s the problem. What’s a “acceptable return”? You did suggest one, but that’s a risk, also.
The main reason to move Z would be to free up money for other purposes. At this point, maybe since he is being productive, you’re getting value from that contract and thus could keep it.
I’m not convinced myself of this — yet. But it may be an option.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I guess
that determining what an acceptable return is why Hendry makes the big bucks. I think that significant salary relief is unlikely, but maybe we can turn Z into help at another position, in the bullpen or in the lineup. I think replacing his production through internal solutions is possible; we have decent SP prospects in the system. Getting 200 innings out of them is the real trick.
The problem is
Hendry has probably determined an acceptable return. I’m sure that was already calculated after this summer’s antics. If nobody meets those demands, Z sticks around, and people will add it to the “Ways Hendry has personally offended me” list that seems to come up in fanposts a few times during the season.
If you move Z you need another starter, and good ones don't come cheap
And if the team gets rid of Z, they will need to replace him. Even if you get $8M in salary relief, that doesn’t go very far in hiring major league starting pitching. The starting rotation is getting a bit messy.
Cashner isn’t ready to be a MLB starter in 2011, and no one else in the system is a candidate before 2012 at the earliest. I don’t think 2011 is likely to be a serious contending year, but I’m still not willing to watch the team throw a collection of Coleman and Diamond types out to get pounded,
Wow! I believe I've now heard it all now
You want to trade BigZ for Oliver Perez and Luis Castillo? or better yet Carlos Beltran, Those guys suck, BigZ is good.
I find myself dumbfounded with some of the trade proposals I read on this website, but this one definitely takes the cake.
You say BigZ underperforms relative to his contract, yet you want to trade him for two players who are worse than Big Z
I’m glad your not the Cubs GM.
You completely misread his post.
There was some talk about dealing Z for those two players when the meltdown occurred.
Clearly, that would be ridiculous now, exactly as the poster said:
Z’s performance since returning has raised his value beyond a swap for Oliver Perez & Luis Castillo.
No one would make that deal now, and he was not suggesting this deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You know what I've noticed? His motion.
It was all wacky and screwed up at the start of the season. Now, I don’t know, but I feel like it looks a lot better. And it seems like his motion is getting better each game. I’m guessing that that helps his control, that’s why only 2 walks today.
by braziliancubsfan on Sep 4, 2010 4:20 PM CDT reply actions
Just like Wood
Z used to fall off to the left side of the mound at release. Carlos has improved quite a bit lately and is more squared up at release. He used to get more movement on his pitches but he was constantly having problems, particularly with LHB. Lately he’s been allowing less than one hit per inning, but his control comes and goes.
If stats are to be believed, he’s pitching in bad luck this year. His BAbip is .348 which is very high and should come down in the future.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Z knows the spotlight is directly on every move he makes...
he’s not going to flip out anymore…this year. A wolf in sheep’s wool is still a wolf (or something like that). Could it have been Lou causing Z’s meltdowns? Quite possibly. I think we keep him…I don’t think we have a choice. Bad contract for bad contract trade wouldn’t compensate the Cubs enough to equal Z’s ability. He looks good, but, who knows what’s going on in his head. This team could sure use him the way he’s pitching right now, next year.
Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.
One could argue
helped cause his flip out earlier this season
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 5, 2010 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
I should not try to multi-task
Let’s try this again,
One could argue being in the spotlight helped cause his flip out earlier this season.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 5, 2010 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions
It's amazing
how much better this team is playing under Quade. 8-3? Really? I’m beginning to think that Lou might’ve been the clubhouse cancer.
"Whenever one finds himself in the majority, it is time to step back and reflect," Mark Twain.
by WindisBlowingOut! on Sep 4, 2010 4:28 PM CDT reply actions
We've beaten the Nationals, Pirates and Mets
Dear Jim: Hi. I'm Mike. Get Ryno in there. Ok bye. ---Mike
Could we have done that with Lou tho? That's the question.
Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.
Teams often get a "bounce" when a manager is changed.
Know who the last Cubs manager to start 8-3 was?
Jim Essian.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Even dead cats
bounce a bit. Although they did get a series win over Pittsburgh, which is an improvement.
Still
One has to wonder what might’ve happened if we’d done this in, say, May.
Or all the way back to a certain game in Philly a few years ago...
…when Lou totally mismanaged his bench and bullpen. Right, Doggie? ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
One would wonder, yes.
But it’s the end of the season…players traded from non contenders, much less at stake…a completely different situation than before. I like seeing them win now but if anyone thinks this means they would have done this before I think you are kidding yourself. It is possible. It sure doesn’t mean it would have happened. There has been a change in the atmosphere. But it’s not hard to be loose when there’s nothing to play for besides pride and next year.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 4, 2010 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Whether it's against good or bad teams
the team IS playing better, that’s undeniable. That’s the first step to turning the team around. They’re obviously looser and some of that must go to Quade’s influence. I know none of the players are going to publicly rip Piniella, but I feel many of them weren’t sad to see him go. I’d love to hear what Fontenot and Baker have to say about him off the record.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Perhaps not a cancer... but...
I don’t think Lou was a cancer in any way, but I imagine that the challenges he was going through might have rubbed off on the team in a negative way. I’m just happy to see the team coming together in a small way.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
(Name Redacted) endorses this message.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
Zambrano
Obviously this is good no matter what. If we are indeed stuck with him, maybe he won’t suck. And hopefully he won’t be yanked around like he was this year under the next manager. However, the better he pitches, the more likely somebody will take a chance on him over the offseason. I’m ambivalent about which one I want to happen (positives to both situations), but if we could move him, I would be much more inclined to take the plunge on Adam Dunn.
This is exactly how I feel.
Z’s performance is a positive whether he’s traded or not. If not, he could be a solid rotation piece next year. If he is traded, clearly he has more value now than two months ago.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think some of this comes down to expectations, though
There has been pressure on Z to be the Cubs’ ace, and he just hasn’t performed at that level. Opening Day 2011 is beginning to look more and more interesting to me – my preference would be that Z not be our starting pitcher that day. That could be a bitter pill for him to swallow, but having someone other than Lou delivering it could soften the blow somewhat.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Good point.
Based on his performance and leadership, Ryan Dempster should start on Opening Day next year. Maybe that alone would take some pressure off Z.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Dempster
I agree that Dempster should start on Opening Day next year. It would be nice to have the first Cubs game at home for once. The last time was in 2008. Before that I think you have to go back to 2001. It would be even nicer to see #23 handing out the lineup card on Opening Day. :)
Personally, I thought Lilly should have gotten the nod for Opening Day this year. It’s a moot point, I know. But I agree that giving the ball to someone other than Z would take some pressure off him.
by jeffmills1972 on Sep 4, 2010 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions
It would be nice to have the first Cubs game at home for once.
I’ve heard it likely will be. The 2011 schedule is due to be released within a couple of weeks.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
First Cubs game
I’d love to get tickets to the first home game of 2011 and go with my dad. My dad was diagnosed with lung cancer last October and he’s doing very well under the circumstances. One of the three tumors is gone and the other two have shrunk considerably since last fall. He’s not out of the woods yet, but we became Cubs fans in May of 1984 and it would be so sweet to go to our first Cubs game with Ryno managing. If not, it would still be great to go there with my dad. His doctor says that if he keeps doing what he’s doing, there’s a great chance that he could be in remission by the end of this year.
by jeffmills1972 on Sep 4, 2010 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I hope you get your wish,
And I wish a speedy recovery for your father, with nothing but good news!
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 4, 2010 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks.
Thank you. A funny thing happened. Well, not so funny, but the night of Game 6 fo the 2003 NLDS I was watching the game at home and I was by myself at the time. I almost called up my dad who was watching the game with my mom and told him I was going to drive to their house to watch the final innings with them. Because I wanted to be there with my dad to enjoy this moment together when the Cubs finally clinched the pennant. Something inside of me said not to and it was also pretty late at night. So I didn’t. And, of course, a few innings later I was glad that I didn’t make that drive down.
by jeffmills1972 on Sep 4, 2010 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions
You and your dad
are in my thoughts and prayers . Sure hope that both of you can make it to opening day . Our family has had a battle with cancer and my dad was a diehard baseball fan . Stay positive !!
I hope you and your
dad get to go to the game. I wish him the best.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Hey Sue. Your Hawkeyes look pretty good. The Big Ten should be a good
battle this year. There seem to be a lot of good teams evenly matched. It could get kind of crazy by the middle of November.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Sep 4, 2010 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Do they still have a team down there in Champaign?
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Sep 4, 2010 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks willie.
I try not to get too excited til later in the season but I liked what I saw yesterday. The Big Ten is very evenly matched and it will be a fun season for sure.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Two questions
1. When was the last time the Cubs started the season at home?
2. Have the Cincinnati Reds ever started the season on the road?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 4, 2010 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions
2008 and not sure
I believe 2008 was the last time the Cubs started the season at home against the Brewers. I distinctly remember Kosuke hitting a home run in that game. I think it was that year. Off of Eric Gagne, of all people.
Before that, I think the Cubs opened the season at home in 2001 against the Montreal Expos. And before that was 1996 against the San Diego Padres with Jaime Navarro starting. Wow. There’s a name from the past.
by jeffmills1972 on Sep 4, 2010 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
True on the openers.
Frankly, considering how cold it usually is in Chicago in early April, I don’t mind if the Cubs open the season on the road.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I actually kind of like it
Admittedly I don’t go to Wrigley, but I like the idea of opening on the road because then you get the season opener and the home opener. It’s kind of nice to get two special games in April.
Truth to tell
I think that all the inland cold-weather non-dome teams (Cubs, White Sox, Tigers, Indians, Rockies, and now the Twins) should open their seasons on the road and stay on the road for a couple of weeks. They can return the favor by hosting more games in the warmer months when playing outdoors in Miami, Atlanta, or Texas (for example) is becoming uncomfortable, but the northerly cities are seeing highs in the 70s.
This would be a favor not only to the fans but to the players – keeping them in mild weather would delay injuries brought about by being exposed to extreme temperatures.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
No. That's not fair for cold weather teams.
Nor is it fair for teams fair-weather markets or in domes. Then, those teams would always be at a disadvantage later in the season, if home games were front-loaded for fair-weather or domes
Then, the ‘bad weather’ teams you suggest would always have a built-in advantage later in the season. Nice for the Cubs and others, maybe.
Play in the weather you have. Don’t screw with the schedule.
The next logical step down that slippery slope is to move all playoff games/World Series to fair-weather or domed cities.
After all, it’s getting cold in the midwest/east in late October.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Sep 4, 2010 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
The big reason is money
It’s unfair to the warm weather teams. Attendance goes up when school gets out in every part of the country. This plan takes high attendance games in June out of warm weather and domed stadiums and gives them to northern cities with outdoor stadiums.
That’s why they don’t mess with the schedule for weather reasons.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 5, 2010 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions
By June, it's generally pretty warm to hot everywhere
If June 1 is your target date for attendance rising because that’s when school’s out, then make that the end of unbalanced scheduling. Play the April games down south and the May games up north and just balance the rest of the schedule.
Heaven forbid I try to take the bread from any owner’s mouth.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
But if you did as you suggest...
… that gives the “warm weather/dome” teams a disadvantage with fewer home games later in the season.
It just doesn’t work.
Now, that said, you could certainly open the season for one series or two, maybe, in warmer weather or domes. But a whole month? No way.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I really don't want to get too involved with this
But how would that work? Assume 27 games (9 3-game series per month). In April, those 27 games for (say) Texas are played at home, and in May, the Rangers play 27 games on the road. How does any team lose out on extra home dates later in the year than if they opened at home for 2 series, went on the road for 2 series, came back home for 2, etc.? Maybe my math is off or I’m missing something, but so long as you found a complimentary Southern team for each Northern team in each league, unbalancing just the first two months of the schedule wouldn’t make any difference at all later.
Again, I’m blue-skying here, and it’s something that’s probably best discussed on a crappy January afternoon or two, but hey…
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
There's no way a team would agree to go on the road for virtually an entire month.
It’s just not realistic.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Unless it's 1996
You’re the Braves, and you need to stay out of Atlanta while the Olympics are going on. There’s precedent.
That was fairly amusing, actually. One of the local radio stations got a Braves player (Steve Avery, maybe?) to call in every day from the road. At first it wasn’t that great, but it got really funny once the guys started running out of clean socks and underwear. For about a week solid, it became the Braves Which Are Wearing Clean Underwear Report – you could kind of make inferences about the opposite situation, if you really wanted to do the math…
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
The Reds don't start on the road
Opening Day is a really big deal here – a holiday for a lot of people. There is a full scale parade though downtown from Findlay Market to the ballpark, and the game sells out in about 15 seconds when tickets are available. I don’t think there is anything like that in any other city.
Remember, the Reds lay claim to being the oldest professional baseball team – that gives them a decent claim to opening at home, even if the chain of that franchise gets a little confused in the early 1870’s. And if Major League Baseball wants to abandon these kinds of traditions for $$$$, then to hell with Major League Baseball.
I hope it happens but I can see why it hasn't often in the past.
Pretty cold in Chicago and avoiding postponement I think figures into it. With spring getting warmer each year I think it has become less of an issue…though the snow a few years ago shows it is still possible.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 4, 2010 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 4, 2010 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions
On Z
I would love to have the cubs give him another chance. I think he has earned it via his actions both on and off the field. I still fear being burned – it is a high-risk, high-reward situation. They have a higher ceiling with him than without him… at least in the short term.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
Keep him.
I have zero faith in Z. I love personally. But you wont get equal value trading him, so keep him.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
We're all going to say "trade him at all cost" when he loses again, right?
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Not necessarily.
Say he pitches well but the team loses 4-0. Or he has one bad game but doesn’t blow up at fans or media. Those things would show a change in him.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
meh.
I think you’re still reacting from a time there’s far less pressure on him. I’m glad to see him do well but the expectations are kind of low right now other than making sure he doesn’t meltdown. May/June of next year is when you’ll see whether he’s truly learned anything. And when he’s had several bad outings in a row. One bad game isn’t enough to tell much. He knows that will happen.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 4, 2010 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions
A couple of Z thoughts...
1) When reviewing any “bad contract for bad contract” trade possibilities, I think you have to consider the production potential. Clearly we all know what Z is capable of when every thing is going well. I would have to say no way does the likes of Oliver Perez / Luis Castillo have that kind of potential anymore. Beltran? Good question. As neifiisgreat said earlier – this is why Hendry gets paid the big bucks.
2) Z beat out an infield hit today. In a key situation, IIRC. The dude still plays hard and wants to win. That has to count for something.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
What would we do with Beltran?
Just asking. It seems like we already have too many outfielders.
Still, that’s they type of player we’d want. No dumping Z for Oliver Perez/Luis Castillo.
move colvin to first and beltran to right?
by jesus christos on Sep 4, 2010 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions
If Colvin can play first...
Should the Cubs try to go after Jayson Cavebeard Werth?
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
YES!
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 5, 2010 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
I really hate
this Colvin to first base idea. I think he’s a good right fielder and I don’t think he’ll get on base enough to be a first baseman who would help us.
I don't think the Cubs really "want" to move Colvin to 1B...
…but it behooves them to find out if it’s an option. Because if it is, it gives them greater flexibility in the offseason. If they get the 1B they want via trade/FA, then it’s a non-issue. But if they find a better OF option, then they can slide Colvin to 1B.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I agree the block is Soriano and Zambrano is not going to be traded
Unless someone overspends or WOW’s the Cubs Z is not going to be traded, his contract: from Cots:
2011:$17.875M, 2012:$18M, 2113:$19.25M vesting player option
full no-trade clause
Zambrano receives 2013 player option if he is first or second in 2011 Cy Young vote or if he finishes in top 4 in 2012 Cy Young vote and is healthy at end of 2012
After the FULL NO TRADE CLAUSE is the high risk of Z, his under performance in relation to his salary….(think Zito)
Cubs must double down and bring this talented under-performing still relatively young player to a player of performance and motivate him to seek a Cy Young consideration.
As for Soriano he is the block in the OF next year, the question is not Colvin getting playing time, his performance and athleticism will do that, it is finding a spot for Brent Jackson.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
so
he’d get on base more if he played RF?
by circuitclout on Sep 4, 2010 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions
No
There is a certain level of offense and defense you expect at each position. As a RF, Colvin is below average OBP and above average power, So he’s about average. With good defense, he’s a net positive
At first base, he’s way below average in getting on base and even a little below average in power. He’s unlikely to be a great defensive first baseman and even if he was, defense at first base can’t make as much of a difference as defense in the OF.
As a RF, he’s a slightly above average player. As a first baseman, he’s way below average.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 4, 2010 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
The Cubs need to plan long term and Colvin is a much better fit in the OF. We have a few prospects that look decent at first in Ridling and Bour and then there is free agency.
We could even look at moving ARam there and seeing if eithe Smith or Canzler is ready for the jump. Ramirez defense has gone down this year so I’d rather move him to first that shift a quality defensive player like Colvin.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
I don't think we can write off Vitters
In a perfect world, Vitters rebounds next season and looks to take over a corner infield position in 2012. Vitters could very well end up as the long-term answer at 1B.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 5, 2010 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions
By no means am I writing him off
However, 2011 must be a turnaround season. We don’t need any more Earl Cunninghams tempting us.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
i disagree
on a lot of different levels.
1. i don’t think we can say, one way or the other, what colvin would be able to do defensively at 1B.
2. his power this year certainly hasn’t been below average, even for a 1B. among players with 300 or more ABs he’s in the top 10 percent in ISO and top 15% in SLG.
3. the cubs already have three useful OFers in soriano, byrd and fukudome and among the options already in the system colvin might be the best option at 1B. i don’t buy into the theory that he magically becomes less a hitter at 1B. and given what colvin will make next year vs what it would cost to acquire a “perfect world” bat for 1B there’s little reason not to at least explore the possibility.
by circuitclout on Sep 6, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
I dunno. Obviously Good Beltran would be good to have but we really don't need another OF.
Too bad we didn’t have a talented but troubled OF that we could trade for a SP… oh wait, never mind… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I wonder if Beltran could play first
with his bad knees, it might be the best way to keep him in the lineup. He’s never been an infielder, but he’s not short, and he is very good with the glove in the outfield.
Somebody take Aramis' bat off the restricted list, please.
Beltran is done. His knees are like peanut brittle. He used to be a speed and
power player and now he has neither. Why would you want another player who can’t stay healthy? I’d pass.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Sep 4, 2010 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Zambrano and the Cubs
If ownership invests whatever they can get for Zambrano back into the team, then I would still like to see Zambrano traded. He is raising his trade value. It is about what they can get for him. Trade or no trade it is encouraging to see him win.
The Cubs 8-3 record under Quade is skewed toward playing the Nationals, Pirates and Mets. Notice the offense has produced enough off of the pitching staffs of non-contending teams to win. They lost 2 of 3 to the Reds. Following Lee’s departure they have also gone with a .300 hitter in the 3 spot for some of these games. Ramirez, while not hitting the cover off of the ball, is in the lineup producing more than he was earlier in the season. DeWitt plays better OBP ball than Theriot did. So, there are alot of moving parts. I would like to see how this team does facing some of the better teams they will be playing before this season ends.
Nevertheless....
… the Cubs lost two of three to the Nats at home in April, couldn’t beat the Pirates for anything all year, and lost three of four to the Mets in NYC in April.
Now they can handle these teams. I consider that an improvement.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Indeed an improvement....
If the Cubs sweep tomorrow that would be 9 out of 12 for Quade. No matter how you slice and dice it, that’s a .750 winning % and, correct me if I’m wrong, but, I don’t think there was ANY stretch this year of 10 or more games, where this team had a .750 winning % during.
Joe Girardi...2011 Chicago Cubs Manager...Book it!!
Adam Dunn..2011 Chicago Cubs First Baseman - 3 yrs/$42 mill with a club option for a 4th.
Cubs went 8-3 from May 16-27...
… and 9-4 from May 16-29.
That’s as close as they came to that, before now.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Improvement
It is an improvement alright. But this is not the same Cub lineup and it is not the same opposing team in some instances. Today the opposing pitcher had his first ML start. I think every Cub position player had a hit! These things turn 1-2 run losses into 1-2 run wins. The Cub bullpen doesn’t matter as much.
Today the opposing pitcher had his first ML start.
And we still managed to win!
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
We still managed to give up the first ML Hit and RBI to someone on the Mets
Don’t remember who but Len mentioned it during the telecast
Lucas Duda.
That was yesterday, not today.
One day, they should play “The Camptown Ladies” when he comes up to bat.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Santo has been having a lot of fun with that name the last two days.
I can only imagine what Harry would have said… ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Brenly actually mentioned that
"That’s what I love about my skip, man. He’ll tell you that you suck...I know I suck. We know we suck...Yeah, we suck. But we’ll see who sucks at the end."
- Gary Sheffield
by DrGalazkiewicz on Sep 4, 2010 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions
To those who say "Well, it's the Mets, Nats, Pirates, etc..."
It’s silly. I take it as a positive that the Cubs team hasn’t quit on their manager unlike some of the other losing teams in the National League. The pressure is off them now so perhaps that could be why they’re playing a bit better. They’re more willing to take risks than they would be if they were in the playoff race when teams tend to play more conservative. But at least they haven’t quit on Quade or the team knowing that they’re out of it. Watching the Mets recently was like watching the Team of the Living Dead. They’re a bunch of zombies out there on that field.
by jeffmills1972 on Sep 4, 2010 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Lee
Lee isn’t so far helping out in Atlanta either. I assume this isn’t because Bobby Cox fails at motivating him. Maybe it’s his back.
Losing probably breeds pressure too.
Derrek Lee
I love D-Lee, but I think his back is bothering him and he’s in the twilight of his career IMHO. I could be wrong, but I think last year was probably his last big year for his career. He could still put up decent numbers, but I doubt he’ll come close to his 2009 or even 2005 numbers again.
by jeffmills1972 on Sep 4, 2010 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I think with the Cubs,
they might’ve just needed it to feel different. Lou leaves and suddenly it’s like the office when the boss is on vacation. You’re still responsible, but everything feels different, more relaxed. It’s not surprising they’ve played better of late. They seem to just be having as much fun as they can while the season lasts.
"One of the things I like about baseball is that between innings you can go to the restroom.'' ~Manny Acta.
I think it's a positive sure.
I’m glad to see they haven’t quit and are playing well. But for all the reasons you mention I would only say that stating as some have without Lou as manager that they would have made the playoffs this year…that Lou is the only reason they didn’t…its the end of the season and you have no idea.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 4, 2010 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Apples to apples, then
The Cubs 8-3 record under Quade is skewed toward playing the Nationals, Pirates and Mets.
The Cubs’ 2010 record under Piniella vs. the Nats, Pirates, and Mets:
Nats: 1-2
Pirates: 3-9
Mets: 1-3
Overall: 5-14, or a .263 winning percentage. Quade’s .727 looks a lot better.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Slight correction
Quade’s record vs. those three teams is now 7-1, for a winning percentage of .875
Mea culpa.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
It's 10 games. It's September and the games don't matter.
Glad to see they are winning but you can’t say you know it would be much different under Quade.
Starlin Castro singles on a pop up to catcher Jason LaRue.
Ryan Theriot scores. Two out -Gameday 7/23/10
by Sandberg's evil twin on Sep 4, 2010 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Not what I'm saying at all
I was being more tongue-in-cheek than anything else, but if you’re gonna throw “weak competition” out as a reason for winning now as opposed to earlier, I think it behooves us to make the proper comparisons.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
The season of "What If"
“Z” pitching well helps the Cubs no matter what. I believe he will remain a Cub and personally I do not have an issue with this, as long as his head is locked in with a vice.
Keep winning games fellas, confidence is gained into next year.
Go Iowa Cubs.
Z
Hello, BCB
I’ve stayed off-board this entire season until now, cringing in silence and enjoying comments both here and on facebook.
Let’s face the facts here: the Cubs would have to eat so much of Zambrano’s contract, or get so little for him (probably a combination of both), that he can’t be considered an asset. I hope that we keep him, he continues to rehab the shambles of his once-promising career, and he settles into a leading role on the 2011 staff.
Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I’ve been a Cub fan for many years and find comfort in my half-full glass of Old Style.
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
Welcome back
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Can I give the I-Cubs lineup?
1. Adduci CF 2. Smith 3B 3. Snyder RF 4. Dubois LF 5. LaHair 1B 6. Scales 2B 7. Robinson C 8. Camp SS 9. Atkins P
Biggest game of the year for the I-Cubs. At least until tomorrow.
No you can't :)
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
recent Z
Any chance Maddux made contact with him?
He’s always said how much he’s learned from GM. Maybe he suggested a more over the top motion or offered up some advice that Z listened to.
by cozmotaylor123 on Sep 4, 2010 7:19 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
The key to pitching in six simple steps
1 – Throw strikes
2 – Don’t walk guys
3 – Keep the ball down
4 – Change speeds
5 – Give them what they earn – avoid the big inning
6 – Repeat steps #1-5
Easier said than done, but Z should (and could still be) a 20 game winner every season with the stuff he has.
Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!
by DKT on Sep 4, 2010 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Ray Miller, pitching coach extraordinaire, was known for his simple 3 step approach
1. Throw strikes
2. Work fast
3. Change speeds
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
You know it. I loved watching Maddux pitch.
The game moves along quickly, the players are ready on every pitch and he was the epitome of efficiency. He could throw a complete game shut out in 2 hrs barely throw 100 pitches, many times less.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
gogo castro!
2011 can't get here soon enough.
by Castro Por Presidente on Sep 4, 2010 7:47 PM CDT reply actions
Was at the game today
and I thought Zambrano looked to be in total command all day long. Cut down on the walks and made a lot of good pitches when he needed them. Two of the hits he gave up were a broken bat blooper and an infield single. I think the best option going forward would be to keep him.
I can also tell you that the sun wasn’t shining in section 215 and it was a little chilly there, but a pretty nice day overall. For me, there is a different feeling with the team right now. Although I was frustrated with the 12 men LOB, I just felt all game long that the Cubs were in control of things and were going to win it, instead of waiting for the roof to cave in on them. I don’t care who we are playing, kudos to Quade, he has the team playing better right now and I am enjoying it.
Keep Z
I really think in retrospect that Lou putting Z in the bullpen was a terrible move. I can’t get inside Z’s head and probably wouldn’t even want to dare try. LOL. But I think Carlos might have perceived this decision as a lack of respect for him. Yes, he was struggling. And I can certainly understand the frustration Lou had and the rest of the team. But having a manager who says to you, “Carlos, you’re starting. And no matter what happens, I’m sticking with you in the rotation.” has to mean a lot to him. I don’t think it’s coincidental that Carlos is pitching well under Quade. It could be the anger management helping him. Probably is. But having a manager who’s got your back has to help him with his confidence and overall attitude.
by jeffmills1972 on Sep 4, 2010 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Piniella was really struggling to cope with this year
And Z bore some of that. Really, how nuts is it to put the Opening Day starter in the bullpen after, what, 4 starts? That either means the guy shouldn’t have been starting that particular game (maybe) or team management is lost.
Is Z unstable and has he underperformed his early potential? Sure, but yanking him around doesn’t do anything to help that.
BOBBY SCALES PUTS THE CUBS UP 5-4
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
And Berg follows it up
With a nice shut-down inning.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I was not aware the Cubs were playing a double-header today.
Oh wait…
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 4, 2010 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions
And a possibility to break it wide open
Bases loaded, 2 outs
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
NM
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Sing it!
Hey Des Moines, whaddya say?
The Cubs are going to win today
by Josh Timmers on Sep 4, 2010 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice edit to the hat. :)
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
Mount Washington conquered July 5, 2010! State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Sep 5, 2010 5:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Zambrano
I have an experience with someone close to me getting treatment for anger management with therapy and drugs. It did wonders and this person has turned his life around in the 2 years since it started.
Mental illness is very hard to diagnose, pinpoint and treat and very hard to understand and also very hard to admit to needing help. If a player breaks his leg we hear “Player A broke his leg” they see it on an xray put a cast on it he’s out for 6 weeks they take the x ray when the time is up and see it’s healed and we see him back on the field. That’s easy to understand and cut and dried. Mental issues are not.
On the baseball side Zambrano isn’t exactly collecting social security checks yet either. There’s still a very good chance he can turn it around. I think he’s had some public and maybe not revealed health issues.
I figure we’re going to probably have to pay him that money anyway. Wouldn’t you rather pay him that money to play for us and take a chance he turns it around both on the field and off? And let’s face it if we do trade him and pay the money you know with the Cubs luck he’ll win 22 games next season while we pay him to do it.
I’m not completely against trading him obviously if a really good offer comes in. But I don’t think it will. And I don’t think the Cubs will be in a worse position anytime soon on their end.
It never got me the thinking of fans who are rooting against him. Even if you believe the hype and that he is the very embodiement of evil and want him gone, the better he does for the Cubs the better position they are going to be in for trading him.
And he obviously on a good team doesn’t keep them from winning since I doubt there are many Cubs players especially since 1945 that have played in 8 years on 3 playoff teams and 2 other plus 500 teams.
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
by puckishcubsfan on Sep 4, 2010 11:46 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Doctor do you concur?
Yes Doctor I concur…
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
remember the big statistical post by Shawn
talking about how Z was suffering from some horrid “luck” early in the season and would likely bounce back
and how Silva was enjoying some extreme good fortune and would likely fall off
and outlining all the reasons why
well…
here we are
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 5, 2010 8:40 AM CDT reply actions
I'll be very interested in what Silva does....
… over his last 4-5 starts, however many he has left.
If he does well, he very well could be dealable.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
interesting decisions regarding next year's projected starting rotation
from Cots
Dempster: 2011:$13.5M, 2012:$14M player option
Zambrano: 2011:$17.875M, 2012:$18M, 2013:$19.25M vesting player option, full no-trade clause.
Silva: 2011:$11.5M, 2012:$12M mutual option ($2M buyout)
Wells (non arb eligible?), Gorzelanny (arb eligible 2011, 2012)
With competition coming up Archer, McNutt, Dolis, Carpenter, Jackson et cetera.
I suspect that Wells or Gorzelanny are dealt in the off season (see Gorz and his arb eligible status or Wells as a cheap innings guy for a cheap team. On paper Cubs would like to deal a performing Silva in June-July if he repeats his April-June of 2010.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
It doesn't matter.
He’s not tradeable. Any value we would get for him would be extremely low. Now we almost have to keep him and pretend like he’s good, waiting for his next blow up, followed by his next apology.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Sep 5, 2010 9:19 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Big Z
I say keep him. I’m not sure Gorzelanny belongs in a major league starting rotation, and I think the Cubs are going to need Zambrano in the rotation next year.
Gorz is a reasonable #3 or 4 starter
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
on a non contending team wanting innings
He has trade value
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
We've had Gorzo for over a year now...
and he has been consistent and solid.
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
Minor Pet Peeve
gave up just three singles and a home run to Ike Davis, his only real mistake.
To say that was Z’s “only mistake” in the game isn’t quite accurate. In any given start, every pitchers throws pitches that were mistakes, but sometimes they’re fouled off, missed completely, or taken for strikes. Conversely, sometimes a pitcher hits his spot perfectly and it still gets hit out of the park. Left-handed hitters often hit low & in pitches out, and they’re not even strikes.
Of course I’m splitting hairs, and come here every day for your recaps, Al, so it’s really no big deal. It kind of compares to your pet peeve about saying someone was “a triple away from the cycle”.
Keep up the good work!
Scott Bora$ is satan.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Sep 5, 2010 9:37 AM CDT reply actions
In case anyone was wondering where today's Game Preview thread was
It’s right here. I have no idea why it’s not on the front page.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Amazing how all the Z love came out on this thread..
.. after almost everyone was ready to toss him under the bus.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Z's highest value is probably for generating posts on BCB.
If the MLB market for him actually improves then I think it’s a wise move for the Cubs to deal him while he can be moved.
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