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Brett Jackson = Mike Cameron?

I've been looking at Brett Jackson and trying to get a good feel for what his reasonable offensive profile might be at the ML level. Many including myself have compared BJax to Grady Sizemore-lite. And while his absolute best case senario ceiling maybe that of Sizemore circa 06-08 I'm just not sure he will reach that. In looking at MiLB numbers Size K'd at a much lower rate 16.6% to 26%. I don't see Jackson as a 30/30 player but more of a 20/20 player in his prime. My biggest concern is where his BA will be once he get's to the ML level.

He hit a respectable .276 in 228 ABs in AA this year and K'd 27.6%. Jackson is very streaky and at this point in his development I'm not sure he will hit for anything more then .260-270ish considering how much he strikesout. Granted some of his K's are offset by his high walk rate but against ML pitching I have to think his K rate will drive his BA down. If he's already striking out at a roughly 26% clip what will that look like once he reaches the majors? Of coarse he could make some strides in this area as he learns the nuances of the game I just don't see any signs that this will happen.

What type of player can we reasonablely expect? Well in looking over numerous players who made the majors who have similar profiles I find that potentialy a Mike Cameron-type offensive profile is a good fit. The K and BB rates are pretty similar MiLB wise and taking into account what BJax has done so far I think he wil probably K roughly the same rate Cameron does in the ML. Now some may read this and say mehhh to Mike Cameron but check out what he's done in his career:


http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/camermi01.shtml

If the Cubs could get this type of production out of BJax I'd say that's pretty darn good. I think that a 250-260 avg 350ish OBP 450-480 SLG and 20/20 with 130+ k's is probably a safe bet for a ceiling. Now Cameron also sports GG caliber defense which adds to his value and it's very difficult to gauge where Jackson will ultimatley settle in defensively but I think solid average to slightly above average defense is pretty safe bet.  Overall I'd be pretty happy with this type of career and I think we would be wise to temper our expectations from BJax based on his K rate. What's your thoughts? 

Poll
What do you think BJax reasonable offensive ceiling is?
Mike Cameron-type
24 votes
Higher than Cameron
75 votes
Lower than Cameron
25 votes

124 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

Comment 52 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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It depends on what you mean by "higher" or "lower".

There are different skillsets you can imagine out of Jackson. I’ve heard him compared to Steve Finley. I think that might be a better comparison.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 8, 2010 7:37 AM CDT reply actions  

RE: Finley

Not a good comp at all imo. Finley only K’d once in his career and posted numerous seasons in the 60-70 range and he didn’t draw a lot of walks. Finley was a speedster in the minors and early in his career. I think someone hit it on the head when they said you just can;t trust Finley’s numbers.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Sep 9, 2010 6:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Finley only K'd once in his career

That’s amazing!

"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko

by DTJchris on Sep 9, 2010 3:21 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Guy was the greatest contact hitter of all time.

Arms as long as a schoolbus. Wielded a 10-foot bat. It was a different time.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Sep 9, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Should read

only K’d 100 times once

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Sep 9, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh.

I must be thinking of someone else.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Sep 11, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

i keep coming back to jim edmonds

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=edmond001jam

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jackso003bre

I think Cameron’s a decent comp to, but I like the Edmonds comp because Edmonds similarly performed well at the lower minors. Cameron had his stumbles before putting things together in his 2nd go-around at AA

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 8, 2010 8:19 AM CDT reply actions  

We can only hope he'd be as good as Edmonds.

I’d settle for Steve Finley.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Sep 8, 2010 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Finley was a pretty good player in his prime and played

until he was 39 or so, I’d take that from Jackson.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Sep 8, 2010 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

I trust Finley's numbers less than almost anyone else's in the era.

He developed power and bulked up at a ridiculously late age (31), changed teams with Ken Caminiti (for chrissakes) from HOU to SDP, and played until he was 42, although he completely lost his power after 2004.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Sep 8, 2010 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Brady Anderson?

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Sep 8, 2010 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

The "Brady Anderson took steroids" meme

makes no sense.

Think about it. Say he made the decision to take steroids before his 1996 season. It was a wild success and he hit 50 home runs, although I know of no credible person that thinks steroids can turn a 15 home run a year guy into a 50 home run a year guy. But let’s say that they did.

So he took them. He hits 50 home runs. They succeed beyond his wildest dreams and he becomes a star. But then, going into his contract year in 1997, he stops taking them? Why? They didn’t start testing in 1997. Then, as his career goes to pot, he’s never tempted to go back to the magic elixir that turned him into a 50 home run guy? Even though there’s no chance of getting caught? (Remember, still no testing.)

So to think Brady Anderson turned himself into a 50 home run a year guy with steroids, you have to believe he made a conscious effort to cheat, succeeded, didn’t get caught, but then had a conscience attack and never did them again. His conscience had to bother him so much he’d see his career fall apart rather than take steroids again, but not so much that he’d ever admit it after his career was over and there would be no repercussions. (Not like it would hurt Brady Anderson’s HOF chances.)

I think the only logical conclusion on Anderson was that he just had one incredible fluke season.

by Josh Timmers on Sep 8, 2010 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

see Bautista, Jose

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 9, 2010 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Question

How do you feel about Luis Gonzalez and steroids?

by Luis on Sep 9, 2010 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I used to think this....

until I heard Brady Anderson speak. He’s very intelligent and spoke highly about the game.

Now I just think it was a fluke year or something.

by SenorGato on Sep 9, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

The poll

says his “ceiling” so I voted higher, because I think there is a reasonable chance (say, 30%) that Jackson will have a higher peak than Cameron. But it’s a good comp.

Somebody take Aramis' bat off the restricted list, please.

by cubzfan on Sep 8, 2010 9:15 AM CDT reply actions  

What are you basing this statement on?
Now Cameron also sports GG caliber defense which adds to his value and it’s very difficult to gauge where Jackson will ultimatley settle in defensively but I think solid average to slightly above average defense is pretty safe bet.

Reports are that Jackson’s center field defense is shaky, hence the limited action in center since his promotion. Much of Cameron’s value comes from his excellent defense, so I’m not sure where you’re getting this comp from.

by Wreckard on Sep 8, 2010 9:42 AM CDT reply actions  

I haven't heard that at all

I’ve been told that he hasn’t been playing CF every day because they want Campana and Guyer to get chances there too.

If you’re talking about Goldstein’s throwaway line to that effect, that’s what it was, a throwaway line. Goldstein was speculating and had no inside info.

by Josh Timmers on Sep 8, 2010 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

re: Defense

For the most part, it’s considered decent-solid, but there have been some concerns that he’ll eventually have to move to the corner spot, and sooner rather than later.

by toonsterwu on Sep 8, 2010 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

actually not completely

there were some folks that expressed concerns this year.

by toonsterwu on Sep 8, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Cameron's D

i wasn’t making any comps to BJax being Cameron like defensively. My only comp to Cameron was offensive. It’s also very dificult to gauge D based on the minors. I so often see conflicting reports from many repsected writers. I was saying solid average was fairly safe.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Sep 8, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Edmonds, Cameron...

…I’ll take either one, though I’d probably lean toward Edmonds as I’m guessing he’s had better plate discipline throughout his career. I do recall from looking at Cameron’s numbers this past off-season that he’s been one of the most remarkably consistent offensive performers in recent history. In any case, I’m looking forward to see how Jackson does in the AFL.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Sep 8, 2010 10:54 AM CDT reply actions  

never came up with a comp i really loved

I think Cameron’s defense was that much better, and I think Brett will hit for a better average.

Finley didn’t strike out as much. He also had a power spike in his 30’s (makes you wonder), and I think Brett will be better defensively.

Edmonds had huge power in his 30’s, power that I doubt Brett will come close to at any point in his career. Of the three, this is probably the comp I’d go to, though. I think Brett can be a slightly above average CF in his prime, like Edmonds was.

One other that I’ve pondered briefly was JD Drew. Seems odd on the surface, and Jackson has to strike out a bit less, and walk a tiny bit more.

by toonsterwu on Sep 8, 2010 11:17 AM CDT reply actions  

can't believe I forgot about

Sizemore. The offensive comparison works for me here. Jackson may strike out a bit more than Sizemore did, and I’m not sure Jackson will ever swipe 30+ bags a year, as Grady did twice, but overall, the profile’s are close enough relative to a positive expectation for Brett. I don’t know if I really expect Brett to be the defensive player that Grady was at his best, though, and as such, I’m doubtful we’ll see Brett match Grady’s peak value years of 2006 and 2008, but here’s hoping.

by toonsterwu on Sep 9, 2010 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just nit picking but....

 “I think Brett can be a slightly above average CF in his prime, like Edmonds was.”

I’d say Edmonds was more then slightly above average defender. Dude won 8 GG and while I do think he was a bit overrated as a defender he still was wel above average in his prime.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Sep 9, 2010 6:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Cub

fans would run him out of town if he put up the numbers Cameron did his first several years. I certainly hope Jackson has a better career than Cameron. Not that Cameron’s career has been bad, but I think his defense has always been his forte.

Go Cubs!

by wild bill on Sep 8, 2010 12:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Sori, Colvin, and Jackson...

at least 5 k’s a game for the opposing pitcher.

"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon

by Cubbiegoon on Sep 8, 2010 12:17 PM CDT reply actions  

It's just a plus that he's being compared to some of the best...

CFs of the past 15-20 years. That says alot about him.

I like the Edmonds comparison best.

by SenorGato on Sep 8, 2010 12:50 PM CDT reply actions  

Rick Monday?

Not a recent player….lefty with some pop not a high avg. Hope he has more speed than any of those mentioned above that’s one of our main needs, He’s got the body of a ballplayer.

by QuincyCub on Sep 8, 2010 7:23 PM CDT reply actions  

Sobering

I’ve been guilty of irrational exuberance with some of our farmhands this yr. When we have seasons like this at the ML level, it is hard not to project your hopes for the future on these kids and the expectations can become a bit unreasonable. If nothing else, it sounds like Jackson brings a varied skill set and quite a bit of athleticism – two things missing on the current roster. The validity of the Cameron comp underscores that this team needs some people with major offensive upside, other than Castro and Soto.

by Mmurton on Sep 8, 2010 9:40 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

RE:

Basically this post was to try and bring a reasonable realistic look at what we could expect. I looked into MiLB numbers of numerous players who carry a similar profile to try and see what type of offensive ceiling we could expect from a guy K’ing at 27% and drawing walks. I think ppl get a bit lazy when comping players. The thing is I’m not a guy who says because player X did this in the minors and player Y had similar stats then player Y will be as good as X but it does give us a starting point. Combine that with scouting reports and we have something to start with.

Edmonds is a far better hitter then BJax at the same stage. If you take out Bjax 1st 19 ABS in AA in June his AVG is a very pedestrian .259 over 208 ABS. THis is more in line with what Cameron did then what Edmonds did. Someone pointed out how badly Cameron struggled intially I think we could very possibly see Jackson struggle intially in the ML. I love BJax so don’t take this as me knocking him but the K rate gives me cause to be cautious and I still contend he may never hit for a high AVG at the ML level. Right now I think Bjax is more in line to post a 250-260 avg with 150 k’s then 280-300 w/ around 100 Ks.

I like the Rick Monday comp a lot. That’s something I’ve gotten away from recently. Using historical players gives us a much wider base and closer profiles then when limiting ourselves to players currently playing.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Sep 9, 2010 6:06 AM CDT reply actions  

On Cameron struggling

He had his first full season at over 100 OPS+, then dropped to a 60(!) the next season, after which the White Sox traded him. From there, he went on to 11 straight seasons of over 100 OPS+ with excellent defense.

I think that sophomore slump bears noting more for Tyler Colvin than for Brett Jackson.

Somebody take Aramis' bat off the restricted list, please.

by cubzfan on Sep 9, 2010 6:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Cameron's struggles

i noted they were in the minor leagues, his minor league track record was nothing like Jackson’s so far

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=camero002mic

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 9, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

?

Look at their AA seasons at 22. both pretty similar but beyond that they both K and walk at roughly the same rate. Like I said I just do’t see Bjax hitting for a real high avg. Cameron and Bjax are pretty similar players.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Sep 10, 2010 6:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

BJax

turned 22 in mid season, this is considered his age 21 season

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is that how we count it now?

So this is Marlon Byrd’s age 32 season?

is UZR this year is COMPLETELY out of whack with the rest of his career. Is it possible he’s become a +10 as opposed to a -5 (career rating including this year) at age 33??? I guess, but to me that screams outlier and thus unsustainable

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2010/8/28/1655865/report-scout-clocks-reds-pitching#45632862

by JSB on Sep 10, 2010 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

its not how i count it

but its how baseball-reference counts it

so comparing Cameron’s age 22 season according to baseball-reference, we should compare Jackson’s age 22 season right?

but jesus christ talk about trolling….

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 10, 2010 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

point is

What I’m saying is I find a lot of simliarites between the 2 hence the comp. I think the other comps of Edmonds, Finley, even Grady-lite are a little to optimistic considering it’s not only me but many scouts who have reservations about Bjax ability to hit for AVG at the ML level.

I stand by my comp.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/

by cubsfan1 on Sep 11, 2010 5:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

not arguing your comp

just stating why I feel Edmonds is stronger at this point in their careers

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 11, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Whatever

You love to call people out on nitpicky things yourself, so if you can dish it out, you sure should be able to keep it.

by JSB on Sep 11, 2010 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

if you want to troll

then go ahead and troll

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Sep 11, 2010 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't want to start another thread so...

I want to ask…does anyone else see a young Shawn Green in Tyler Colvin?

Like a young Green he’s a tall, high K, mediocre walk hitter with developing power, strong athleticism, and a sweet looking swing (Green’s was sweeter). Both are even first round outfielders who were drafted in the 10-20 range.

I’m surprised to say that Tyler Colvin actually intrigues me greatly in the future. I really like what the Cubs are doing lately.

by SenorGato on Sep 9, 2010 2:28 PM CDT reply actions  

I see what you're getting at

But Green was a better in the minors at a younger age. He also showed better control of the strike zone. Colvin has shown a little more power so far, but without the plate discipline, I don’t know if he’s going to explode like Green did.

That would be a nice outcome for Colvin. Unfortunately, I remember a few years ago comparing Colvin to Jeff Francoeur, back when that wasn’t an insult. Looking at what happened to Francoeur, I just hope I was wrong.

by Josh Timmers on Sep 9, 2010 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think Colvin is as bad as Francoeur.

Francoeur doesn’t walk yes, but his biggest issue is that he can’t even pick up a breaking ball out of a pitchers hand. It’s almost guaranteed to be a swing and a miss unless you hang it…and 99% of pitchers know to bury it.

Iunno man…I’m seeing alot of similarities in their games as young players. Green had mediocre at best plate discipline until he was about 26 years old.

Believe me, I was as shocked as you are to even think of Green with Colvin…but watching him hit and seeing Green’s skills as a young player makes me see alot of intriguing similarities.

by SenorGato on Sep 9, 2010 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

btw

Green was always one of the best case comparisons used for Colvin. I’m taking a wait and see on Colvin … still not sure he’s a regular on a first tier squad, although he’s done enough to get a chance to play.

by toonsterwu on Sep 9, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's not a regular on a first tier squad as he stands now.

That said, it’s obvious he’s put some major work in since he was drafted and that is enough to inspire me. I think he’s one of those guys who’s going to work to improve the holes in his game.

by SenorGato on Sep 9, 2010 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I heard

that Colvin is one of the hardest working kids that has come through here in awhile and that inspires me.

by Ryno G on Sep 11, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think Green is impossible

and I agree that Francoeur would be a worst-case scenario.

by Josh Timmers on Sep 9, 2010 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

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