Cubs Trade Tom Gorzelanny To Nationals
As first posted in this FanShot and reported by Bruce Levine at ESPNChicago.com, lefthander Tom Gorzelanny has been traded by the Cubs to the Nationals for three prospects, which will include "two pitchers and an outfielder", according to Levine.
Well, at least Gorzo got to enjoy a weekend at the Cubs Convention before he was sent away.
This leaves the Cubs with no lefthanders in the rotation, although manager Mike Quade says he may try James Russell there. That, in my opinion (and I agree with Josh who said the same thing in the FanShot), would be a mistake. Russell did start in the minors, but he wasn't very good at it. He's better off as a LOOGY. In fact, if the Cubs do have an all-righty rotation, having three LHP (Sean Marshall, John Grabow and Russell) in the bullpen could be an advantage, forcing opposing managers to flip lineups in the late innings.
Gorzo did a good job; he wasn't spectacular, but did what he was asked, including going to the bullpen last year. I think I'll remember him most for the shots he took off his body -- twice -- last year when line drives came right back at him.
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Why do I have a feeling these minor leaguers are going to be non-prospects
It’s not usually a good sign when the minor leaguers aren’t named.
Can't be named until Gorz passes his physical.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I am going to guess no
Considering that they were announced immediately. There are plenty of times the prospects are announced before the trade is finalized.
The pitcher--can't even remember the kid's name now--
wasn’t annoucned for a couple days.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 17, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
zach rosscup? something like that i think
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
iirc
Archer and Lee were ‘accepted’ as two in the trade immediately. The two pieces to the Cubs were announced later, with the pitcher being about the time the physicals were passed.
Wait, so the insiginificant pieces were the ones not announced
Thus consistent with my original statement.
Why do I have a feeling these minor leaguers are going to be non-prospects It’s not usually a good sign when the minor leaguers aren’t named.
You may be right.
But I don’t think “not naming” is a “sign” of anything — other than that maybe the Nationals do business differently than the Rays.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
because you are a Cubs' fan
and you assume the worst?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 18, 2011 8:24 AM CST up reply actions
Bye Gorzo - All the best to you.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Now who's gonna get hit by all those hot shots back to the mound?
That was Gorzo’s main role – being the target for line drives.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
If Aram has a 2+ moonth slump like last year...
I have a suggestion… same with the “streaky” Alfonso…
I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".
Whoopsie! "mOnth" :]
I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".
I hate the fact that we couldn't find a place for Gorzo
I thought he was a solid southpaw, and did his part in the underrated ‘10 pitching staff. Nationals got a good pitcher, and I really don’t know who the prospects are.
by braziliancubsfan on Jan 17, 2011 2:01 PM CST reply actions
in a way, me too BCF
I been seeing you round the “other boards” ( using boards lightly)!
I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".
Da Gorz was a magnet for comebackers, that's for sure.
And I’d agree that he did a solid job in his time with the Cubs. Best wishes to him in Washington.
Don’t get your hopes to high on the prospects coming back. This was just tweeted by Nats beat writer William Ladson:
I have been told the #Nats are not giving up signifcant Minor Leaguers.
I’ll take a Demp-Z-Garza-Wells-Cashner rotation, thanks much.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Agreed
He seemed like a good guy. Nothing but the best to him, but it seems like a good move.
Chicago fan stuck in Florida.
RIP Ron Santo
Why?
Nothing but the best to him, but it seems like a good move.
Why does this seem like a good move?
Because the Cubs did it.
If the Cubs had done the precise opposite, that would also have been a good move, by virtue of the Cubs doing it.
In this case, we know that Gorzelanny has been traded for 2 or 3 human beings. We also know that the Nats will be taking on some or all of Gorzo’s salary, or none. Or, we’re sending money with him. We just don’t have the facts. Regardless, it is obviously a good move, because the Cubs did it.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
As opposed to the reflexive opposite, seemingly stated so many times here..
…. “everything the Cubs do is wrong.”
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
True.
But that was then, this is now. I choose to not look back.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Those who forget history...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
Have really bad memories and usally fail the class.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
or have alzheimer
and every day they meet new people
I agree with Al, about looking forward, but there is no denying what has happened
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
usually text their BFF sitting next to them for 3 hours in Western Civ 101
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Or you do it very selectively.
Just like any of us, you frequently reference old games, old players, old trends, etc.
THE TOP 100 CUBS OF ALL TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
My favorite is always:
“The Cubs are X games back with X games to play. The 2002 Astros went 53-4 to make the playoffs. It might be unlikely, but it’s still possible”
Once in a hundred years means it's possible.
Cue Dumb and Dumber reference 1-2-3….
"The problem isn't that people aren't smart, it's that some folks have an attention span of about seven days. Look at the broader picture and you'll always be smarter." - Bill Barnwell of F.O. on why the media picks playoff winners on Monday.
Samsonite... I was WAY off!
Wait.. wrong reference?
that is such utter nonsense.
So we can’t base any of our opinions on what has happened in the last few years?
Really?
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
No one's saying that.
But some here seem to think that because mistakes were made in the past, mistakes will thus ALWAYS be made.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
not at all
people are objectively evaluating moves based on the history of the PLAYER being acquired, NOT the history of the TEAM acquiring.
People evaluated Garza based on GARZA’S history, not the CUBS. Same with Pena, same with Kerry Wood….
The Cubs as an organization just happen to make more questionable moves than most.
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 19, 2011 8:36 AM CST up reply actions
The Cubs as an organization just happen to make more questionable moves than most.
I think this is the view of some here because we, as Cubs fans, analyze the Cubs more closely than other teams. I suspect if you were a fan of another team, you might say the same thing.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
not at all
there’s been a number of studies examining the efficiency of general management decisions based on payroll vs. performance or FA dollars paid vs. performance, etc (some are better than others, the most recent one posted here examining +/- of WAR by players let go was extremely poor) and all the examples point to the Cubs near the bottom.
This team hasn’t been to a world series in over 50 years. The team hasn’t won a world series in over 100. The club has just SIX playoff appearances in the last 65 years
You’ll point out that 4 of those have come in the last 12 years, which is fair, but also corresponds to a period in which the Cubs began raising payroll significantly.
Since the Cubs began spending with the big boys in 2004, they’ve averaged just 82 wins per season (mediocrity).
On most metrics you could find to assess the organization its been in the lower half of baseball.
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 19, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
Nevertheless...
… the first decade of this century has been the best decade of Cubs baseball since the 1930’s.
Granted, that’s not saying much. But I do think the team is headed in the right direction.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Oh please.......
Just because we don’t win a world series doesn’t mean that there haven’t been alot of things that have gone right.
The scary part is not being able to tell if this is sarcasm.
by Schwa on Jan 17, 2011 4:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
since when are you sarcastic?
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Jan 17, 2011 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
he is sarcastic 230% of the time
the other half of the time, he is being facetious
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
i refuse to believe it
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Jan 17, 2011 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
You're sarcastic?
I had no idea at all.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
Beat the Chicago Bears, THEN I'll talk about the Packers being in the Super Bowl. But not until that happens.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 17, 2011 8:59 PM CST up reply actions
If you measure "right"
Solely by world series wins, you’re doomed to be disappointed quite a bit in life. Look, I’m not saying I’m pleased with where the Cubs are, but the doomsday, sky-is-falling, overdramatization of the negative is a bit ridiculous.
by jballgame on Jan 17, 2011 5:29 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
"We have absolutely no facts regarding this trade. Still, it seems like a good move."
Come on, Al. The post I responded to was exactly the type of “if the Cubs did it, it’s correct” statement I’ve been referring to. How can we even say “it seems like a good move” with zero facts to consider? We didn’t know anything about the financial terms, prospects involved – NOTHING. And still it “seems good”.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 3:51 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Point taken.
Right now, it seems neither good nor bad to me.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Paul Sullivan took an indirect shot at Al...
Saying that the only blog that made it into the media session on Friday was the one that finds no fault with anything the Cubs do. :)
Ha, that is interesting
Most of the Cubs blogosphere takes a lot of shots at the Ricketts. Al is definitely the most glass-half-full of the group.
Let me say, it's my assumption he's talking about BCB...
Media social, 3 p.m.: The Cubs players and executives meet with the Chicago media in a social setting for interviews and small talk. Fans and bloggers are not allowed, with the exception of the blog that lauds every move of the Ricketts and the Cubs’ higher-ups.
Ouch.
Well, thanks for the link. I’m guessing Sully doesn’t like the fact that BCB so regularly trashes him — i.e. how his Twitter page showed nothing about the Garza trade the day it was coming down.
I’m not saying Al made those comments, for the record.
I'm guessing it has more to do with Sully being 100% accurate in this regard
Al has turned into an EVEN BIGGER cheerleader this offseason, with very little reason.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Well, if he is 100% accurate in that statement...
There really is a first time for everything.
Paul Sullivan is an idiot.
And a crappy writer. So there’s that.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 6:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't forget Paul Sullivan is featured in the first installment of Between the Ivy!
Er, ThePenismightier, we mean. Revisit exciting memories from the 2009 season here!
Look for the second edition of BtI before the 2011 season starts!
Chester Cheetah is a fictional anthropomorphic cheetah and the official mascot for Cheetos brand snacks and Chester's Puffcorn. He is distinctive for his lanky body, large sunglasses, tennis shoes, and smooth persona.
by dtpollitt n SWL on Jan 17, 2011 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
That's NOT true...
Al has criticized the Cubs for lots of things, just not anything related to the direct performance of the baseball team.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 5:28 PM CST up reply actions
Al has been pretty critical of on-field stuff.
He did call for Lou’s departure last spring.
You know, I missed that Sullivan post.
Funny thing, too. Other blogs trash Sullivan. Some posters here do. I don’t, but he takes a swipe at me anyway.
And yes, I criticize on-field stuff as well as other things. I just don’t reflexively bash everything the team does.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I don't get the animosity toward the beat writers.
Sullivan isn’t the best reporter in town, but he’s not that bad. Gordo gets bashed a lot, but he occasionally gets a big scoop — e.g. Garza. FWIW, I do understand the animosity toward the columnists, many of whom are pretty bad.
As for you Al, you are certainly more charitable to the front office than most around here, including yours truly. Part of it, I think, is that you’ve decided (consciously or not) that you’re going to be more restrained in your criticism of Cubs personnel if you think we’re stuck with that person or persons for a while.
Just an observation. Feel free to refute.
Honestly, I don't even notice the beat writers as "personalities".
As swipes go, Sully’s definitely leaves a bit of a mark. But I have to agree with elgato, and I’ll go a bit further:
Al does start from the point of reflexively agreeing with everything that the Ricketts and the front-office higher-ups do.
Sometimes, he eventually comes around to disagreement. But not lately. Even when he had disagreed with a proposed move the day prior – when it becomes an actual move, he’ll change his opinion and vociferously defend the front office’s decision.
Take, for instance, the Ricketts’ request for $200M in taxpayer funds. Al came out with a front-page story on Day 1 strongly in favor of the deal, calling it a “win-win”, despite the fact that (and I’m being charitable here) he didn’t have a full grasp of all the facts and details of the deal. (Frankly, I’m not sure anyone did at that point.) Still, that first story (11/16/10) contained statements from Al like:
“It’s not quite as simple as some make it out to be when they say, “This is public money for a private project”, and
“The proposal made today by Tom Ricketts … I believe addresses this without taking money away from anything else”, and
“Cubs president Crane Kenney told me that tax revenues that would be generated by the economic activity that is created by these projects is projected to be many times over the amount of amusement tax that would be used to retire the bonds.”
Even several weeks later, when the plan had been soundly rejected, Al still disputed that the $200M in public money was a “gift” to the Cubs, claiming that “it was going to be paid back somehow.”
Now, I know that Al is not a journalist per se. But Al does have a very large readership, and it seems fairly obvious that a sizeable chunk of the BCB community tends to rely on him as an opinion leader.
I think that in many cases, BCB would be well served to hold back on the “We agree with Hendry/Ricketts!” pronouncements until BCB understands all of the angles in play – and even when making such pronouncements, BCB would be well served to strike a little more of the analytical tone Josh77 did in his “What We Gave Up” post on 1/7, as opposed to the “Why the Matt Garza Trade Is A Good Deal For the Cubs, Part One/Deux” posts that flanked it. (But that’s just my personal preference – I am sure that others love cheerleading.)
More to my point – There’s no question that, in recent years, Al has been granted more access to the Cubs than any other independent blogger. There’s also very little question that he’s advocated on behalf of the current front office more than any other (prominent) independent blogger.
It goes without saying that there’s no quid pro quo in play – that would be silly. But as an “ad hoc” thing, at some point, it starts to look like relaying the party line in exchange for enjoying this continued access.
And I can’t say that I wouldn’t be swayed in the same way. I probably would. That kind of access would be a blast.
But you have to be willing to absorb the slings and arrows from the Sullivans out there if you’re going to take that path.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 18, 2011 9:22 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
FTR ...
I think it’s WAY over the top to say Al agrees with everything the Cubs do and say. And I said that yesterday.
I do think he’s more charitable than I am and many posters are.
Certainly.
And I’m sure that there have been some – but I just can’t think of many disagreements – even mild ones – with Hendry or Ricketts in the last year. (Lou, sure.) Really, the Bradley signing was the last time I can remember any disagreement at all.
There was the tax levy thing, and Z to the bullpen, and dealing Archer, and spending so little on the draft, and Lilly-for-DeWitt with Kelly Johnson on the table, and Hendry’s initial reaction to the Z blowup. Even the Grabow deal got defended.
I guess what I’m getting at is, that kind of access legitimizes the blog and builds the brand, but it is going to come with some mild drawbacks, like having a Trib beat reporter more or less call you a sycophant, fair or not.
(And on second thought, I don’t remember Al being on board with the 2011 ticket pricing.)
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 18, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I really think ...
it has less to do with access and more to do with Al’s personality. Last year, he and I argued like crazy about giving Jeff Baker some outfield time in ST. I thought it would add to the Cubs’ versatility. Al kept saying there was no point (considering how many outfield options the Cubs had).
I think Al figures that we’re stuck with Hendry and the Ricketts, so we might as well make the best of it. I’ve also think that he’s a little more boisterous in defense of the management given how things have turned more negative in the past couple years.
elgato is correct.
Since he and I have met in person and discussed some of these things, I think he’s got a better understanding of where I’m coming from.
Let’s just say I hope my optimism is justified.
D98 is correct on the ticket pricing — I did criticize that, and still do. I think they’ve made a serious mistake in overpricing many games, and they will find out how bad a mistake this is on Feb. 25.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You're in the ...
why-complain-if-it-won’t-help camp. There are quite a few BCBers who feel this way, and even some who think that we need to be positive as a way to help the team.
I understand the first camp (though I’m not part of it). I really don’t get the second camp. I don’t think any talking we do as fans affects the Cubs’ results. Someone will undoubtedly bring up the Wrigley atmosphere during the Dodgers series, but I think that’s a lot of bunk.
Points taken.
When the Cubs do something I disagree with, I’ll say so. No one has ever told me what to write, if that’s what you’re implying.
I do have a problem with what appears to be the reflexive statements by many here, no matter what the Cubs do, that they’re wrong.
Good example, in fact, is this thread. Is this trade a good deal? It may not be, as not having a LHP in the rotation isn’t necessarily a good thing. But it may work out. I don’t have any problem discussing both sides of this issue.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'm certainly not implying that - I said just the opposite.
I said it would be “silly” to imply a quid pro quo. I just think that it’s natural for anyone to give the benefit of the doubt to Cubs brass when you’re speaking with them personally.
As for this Gorzo deal, it’s probably good in both the short and long-term. I don’t know that Gorzelanny is going to be a major contributor for a team with WS aspirations, and we definitely have an abundance of back-of-the-rotation arms.
But I don’t really see anyone blasting this deal in and of itself. We got a power bat for a system that sorely lacks power, and a relief arm that could be an MLB contributor someday. However, we have to consider the context.
I noted that it’s kind of ridiculous to say, as Quade did, that today’s deal means that Russell will be looked at as a starter. If having a left-handed starter is so important, then the team should have found a different way to save $1.6M.
I’ve also noted that this deal has to be considered in light of the Garza trade, as the primary impetus was probably salary relief. And in that case, it all really hinges on whether Garza is going to become the anchor starter the Cubs think he’s going to be. I sure as heck hope he is.
Ultimately, as I wrote somewhere else in this thread, it’s probably time for me (and everyone else) to turn our attention to Arizona and see how this team is going to shape up. I’m a whole lot less optimistic than I was 12 months ago, but hope springs eternal this time of year.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I agree with you regarding the LH starter and Russell.
Russell seems well suited to being a LOOGY. He wasn’t a good starter in the minor leagues — why would now be any different?
I share your hope re: Garza. Will he ever be a Halladay or a Cliff Lee or a Sabathia? No. But with Dempster, Z and Garza at the top of the rotation, I believe the Cubs can match up with anyone in their division.
Glad you said “hope springs eternal”. It does, doesn’t it? Can’t wait for pitchers and catchers to report… it’s less than four weeks away.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
IMHO, Sullivan is pretty bad.
When he sticks to passing along factual information about the team, he’s adequate. But he’s taken so many unwarranted, unfunny shots at various Cubs players that his objectivity is dubious at best. And his shot at Al above (and ridiculous blocking of many of his Twitter followers) reveals a very condescending, out-of-touch attitude regarding bloggers and the Internet at large.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Sully doesn't shy away from putting more opinion in his stories
than I’m comfortable with.
If he writes a column, then he’s free to opinionize (is that even a word?) any way he wants. It really doesn’t have a place in ame stories and non-columns.
Bruce Miles does a much better job of presenting viewpoints that are backed by sources. IMHO, he’s the best guy on the beat.
Gordon spends too much time writing about stuff like curses. I think he’s closer to Sully then he is to Miles.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 18, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
Miles is still the best. Gordo doesn’t bother me as much as Sully, though he has his unflattering moments as well.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Miles is the best beat reporter by a mile
I think Gordon is petty too. The self-congratulations over him being the first to break the Garza story were unbecoming as well.
Levine works hard, but it seems
his info often isn’t accurate. Hasn’t that been a problem with him, eg?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 19, 2011 1:46 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I appreciate Levine's work ethic.
He passes along a lot of interesting info. I’m not crazy about his analyses, though. He seems to say a lot of off-the-wall stuff.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
by daver on Jan 19, 2011 9:05 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
In addition to questionable writing skills, apparently Sully doesn't know how to read either.
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
The Cubs won't be sending money
If the prospects weren’t named at the front end, this is a “salary dump.” Hendry can’t dump the big ones, so he has to settle for dumping a little salary.
Seems like a Hendry move
Get a nice guy to a place where he will be able to have a role. And don’t worry so much about what you’ll get back.
If we’re getting non-prospects, couldn’t we have done so in March.
Agreed
I’d rather have had Hendry give them Silva for nothing instead of trading a valuable lefty for a few farmhands.
"Whenever one finds himself in the majority, it is time to step back and reflect," Mark Twain.
by WindisBlowingOut! on Jan 17, 2011 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
Hey, we had to clear out his salary to make sure we could sign a backup catcher to nearly $1 million this year
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Says someone I'm 99% confident...
Was pissed the Cubs didn’t sign Blanco as a back up for “only” 1 million a couple years back.
Best of luck to you Gorz
Please keep James Russell out of the rotation. K thanks
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
The entire "maybe Russell in the rotation" comment confuses and disappoints me.
The only possible reading is:
“We had to trade Gorzo b/c we are completely and totally out of money. We are now, however, a little troubled about our total lack of LH starting pitching. As such, we are at least considering using a VASTLY, VASTLY INFERIOR option to Gorzellany as a starting pitcher.”
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Only if you think Russell is the replacement.
It could be Andrew Cashner. What would you say then?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That we shouldn't have trade for Garza
If we already had too many starting pitchers why did we trade for one that wasn’t much better than what we had.
See, there's where you & I differ.
I think Garza is better than that. We’ll see.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Honest question - have you ever watched him pitch?
More than twice?
You see a lot of Cubs baseball… so much, in fact, that I don’t know when you’d be able to watch Garza.
And if you’re basing this opinion on stats, I’m more inclined to discount it. His stats are not great.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I've seen him pitch, yes.
Not in person, but on TV. More than once.
I’ve seen it said here (not sure if you said it) that Garza isn’t much better than Gorzelanny. I differ with that opinion.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think Garza is probably better than Gorzelanny.
I don’t think he’s better than Lilly. He’s obviously younger.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I'd rather have Garza's present and future...
…than Lilly’s present and future.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 17, 2011 7:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's not really the choice, is it.
It’s Garza’s next three years vs. Lilly and Gorzo’s, and Archer’s next 6.
At this point, enough players have been moved that it’s probably just time to start looking forward to spring. Today’s move is better than I’d expected, given the circumstances and recent performance in acquiring prospects under duress.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
But not more than twice?
What do you think Garza is going to do this year? What do you think Gorz is going to do?
This is kind of the crux of the situation.
I think that Garza is likely to outperform Gorzelanny over the next 3 years. I would not bet $100 on the proposition. I feel that the Cubs just bet several tens of millions of dollars on the proposition, unnecessarily.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Me too
Honestly, my expectations are that Garza will finish the season with 210 IP and about a 3.80 ERA, while Gorz finished the season with 180 IP and a 4.15 ERA.
Sure, Garza is better. But not to the degree that will make a huge difference between this team making or missing the playoffs.
I disagree.
I think Garza will have an ERA below 3.50 with the Cubs. That’s a significant difference.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
3 of them for the Cubs
the other 14 for the opposition
Man... I'd take
any “action” on the over for that number.
An ERA under 3.5 is basically best case scenario.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
how can you even compare Garza and Gorz?
a 3.5 is less tthan a half a run a game improvement from what he was last year…pitching in the AL East with a DH. Getting to picth against the Pirates and Asrtro’s several times a year is going to give you half a run a game at least
There's a lot more to the story than that
Garza is a fly-ball pitcher. Trop is a pitcher’s park, Rays OF defense is much better than the Cubs.
-.41 ERA Improvement
Thats the average from this study
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/fantasy/article/the-statistical-impact-of-switching-leagues-for-pitchers/
i think his avg ERA was 3.8 so around 3.4 ERA. If you expect an increase in defense and park factors he might see an increase. But i think our outfield defense isnt that bad. Soriano wasnt that bad, while bryd and fukudome are pretty good.
I think he has a good chance to be around 3.5 for his age.
I don't think his ERA will go up.
IMO, It will stay essentially the same. I’m with JSB… ~3.80.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
So if that .41 is the average...
…and if you think Garza is an above average pitcher, then it stands to reason his delta would be above average too, would it not? 3.50 is very doable.
Then again, 4.00 wouldn’t surprise me either. Getting thumped by StL (Pujols, Holliday, Rasmus, Theriot, Berkman), Mil (Fielder, Braun, Hart, McGehee, Weeks), and Cin (Votto, Bruce, Phillips) on a regular basis would be enough to shell-shock anyone.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
He's a solid pitcher.
But his peripherals don’t really translate to making that .41 jump just cause he switched leagues. If he brings down his peripherals, he is capable of making the jump. I just don’t see it, based on what I’ve seen of him.
BTW… I definitely laughed at you including Theriot on the thumper list.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I was wondering if anyone would notice that... ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I agree with you on that, but..
Garza pitched very well in non pitchers parks as well, like Yankee stadium, Fenway park, and Camden Yards. Not to mention the two weakest teams in the AL east (the O’s and Blue Jays) are probally better offensively than the two best in the NL central.
I just really think going from a 3.91 ERA to a 3.50 is very possible
0
I do too
I don’t think a 3.50 ERA is out of the question. I guessed he would have a 3.80. Not a huge difference there. But a 3.50 ERA in the NL Central would not have him anywhere close to the top 10 pitchers in the game.
I don't think he's near the top 20...
I think he is a solid #2 starter, who has pitched some really great games in the playoffs.
I forgot he threw a no hitter last year
One good example for league switches is....
Bronson Arroyo. He went from the Red Sox to the Reds and had one of his best years. He increase his War from 2.7 to 5.8. He also lowered his ERA from 4.51 to 3.29.
Although he want from a hitters park to another hitters park, but he had similar stats. Although i think Garza has better stuff and is younger.
This kind of reasoning happens a lot on BCB.
If the Cubs are 15 games out in mid-July, meteoric comebacks of other teams in previous years are cited as reasons why the Cubs can come back too.
The problem is that examples like that are usually exceptions, not rules.
Yep. And Mitch does that... a lot.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Arroyo is on the high end of improvement
But i dont see a list of players who failed moving to the NL. -.41 ERA is the avg.
And when think of AL East to NL Central switches
I can only think of the successes like Lilly, Carp, and Arroyo.
As a Pessimist maybe you can give a list of failures.
all I was saying is that if he has the avg. improvement of a player making this change he will have a 3.50 ERA
that would not be an exception it would be the norm…
Which is why we look at other factors...
like defense and park.
And the fact that Garza is an extreme flyball pitcher.
And that his peripherals suggest he’s not getting better.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
when Ted Lilly was signed so many said he was a bad sign, and would fail
because he was a flyball pitcher, I think he improved a little better than the .41 avg.
just one example
Well, that's the point of an average.
Some will be better. Some will be worse.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Sometimes
you give off the impression that you think it’s impossible he’ll improve, because you think the defense and park change outweigh the league change. Perhaps that’s not what you mean to convey, but to me at least you come across as though you’ve already seen next year’s stats and therefore you couldn’t be wrong about the conclusions you’ve made about him.
In reality, he could be better, worse or the same. We can use stats to make inferences and draw conclusions, but their predictive value is far from absolute.
DEJESUS!!!
If that is the impression I give, then I apologize.
It surely isn’t what I mean.
If anything, it is a defense mechanism/reaction to all those who are doing the precise opposite—-stating assurances that Garza’s numbers will improve just because he is leaving the all-mighty AL East.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
None off the top of my head, no.
But that is in part because 200 IP in their prime rarely move at all, not to mention move as specifically as one particular division to another particular division.
And, for the record, none of Lilly, Carpenter, or Arroyo fit the qualifications of consecutive seasons of 200+ IP and in their prime.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
well then...
they all were a lot better makeing the switch..
just a few other names off the top of my head
CC Sabathia, Cliff Lee,
How about a couple of guys who we’re great in the NL and not so much in the AL
Javier Vasquez, A.J. Burnett
I could list many more....
if he isn’t better it will be abnormal
Barry Zito and Mark Mulder?
Tim Hudson? Edwin Jackson sucked with ARI. Dan Haren was better with OAK than he was with ARI. Johan Santana basically held serve, although the peripherals were often better in MIN.
How many players pitch 200+ innings for 2 straight years and then get traded?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Zito is abnormal,
he lost alot of MPH on he fastball, and Mulder was pretty even until he got hurt
Edwin Jackson has always been inconsistant
Tim Hudson was an injury, and I’ll have to look up Haren, but I thought he has benn good most everywhere until he was traded to the Angels this year
So if the players don't support
your view, then they are just “abnormal”?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
isn't that the word that is used when something isn't close to the norm?
there are always exceptions, good and bad, but for this discussion there are more examples of good, does that mean I am saying that Garza will be good…no. For all I now He may need Tommy John Surgery because he’s thrown over 400 innings in 2 years
No, there aren't more examples of good.
There will be a largely equitable number of examples of “good” and “bad”. That’s how you arrive at an average.
The good examples come to mind easier because they are better, and more prominent, players.
A pitcher who goes from the AL East to the NL, stinks, and never makes the majors again contributes to the average.
Look… we ALL hope Garza is one of the “good examples”. In baseball terms, there’s not much that would make me happier than for him to develop into a legit ace. I’m just not holding my breath.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
well the Avg. per Baseball Ref. is a .41 improvement witch is all I was talking about in the first place
which considering last year his ERA was 3.91…that would put him at 3.50 so saays the laws of avg.
just sayin…lol!
This division thing has been hashed over endlessly.
The difference is overrated by … a lot. Look up some of the “old” threads when Garza was acquired for more elaborate discussion.
Runs scored last year:
Yankees 859 (1st in baseball)
Red Sox 818
Cincy 790
Toronto 755
Milwaukee 750
STL 736
Baltimore 613
Houston 611
Pittsburgh 587
More or less…
BOS = CIN
TOR = MIL
BAL = HOU
That leaves New York, St. Louis and Pittsburgh. So that means the 3-4 starts Garza would make against the Yanks are instead against the Cards and/or Pirates.
I’d say that 3-4 start difference will be more than wiped out by park and defensive differences.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
you really can't compare this either because the level of Pitching faced
looking at the history of interleague play the AL has dominated the NL, I do think the power is begining to shift a little the NL’s way though
Then Hr Factor Cancels out for Garza
AL East Top 3: 669 homeruns
Nl Central Top 3: 520 home runs
So -149 homeruns means Garza’s home run increase to Wrigley will be canceled out by the league change
Why are you just arbitrarily parsing statistics?
Did Garza only pitch against “top 3” AL East teams? Will he pitch against only “top 3” NL Central teams?
You’re more than welcome to keep being optimistic and hoping that Matt Garza will all of a sudden “find it”. I sure as heck hope he does… I would be ECSTATIC to be wrong.
But there’s really nothing in the numbers to suggest it will happen.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Fortunately baseball
is actually played out on the field though. Maturity, talent, coaching, confidence, luck and other factors all go into it. The numbers may not suggest he is likely to get any better but they also don’t guarantee he won’t. And being optimistic is better than the opposite imo.
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by Section 312 on Jan 17, 2011 7:06 PM CST up reply actions
define find it....?
I don’t think he is going to ever considered an “ace” type of pitcher, but I don’t see how you can look at this guy the last few years and say he needs to find it. If he just stays the same pitcher he will be better in the NL central
Zack Greinke will be better by leaving baseball purgatory, not BECAUSE he's moving divisions.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Hendry said he's an ace. That's the price he paid.
(Paraphrasing) Hendry said Garza was one of the ten best pitchers in baseball, which is why he worked on the deal for so long.
The problem, of course, is that Garza is nowhere close to being an ace.
He will help the Cubs. He makes them slightly better. But Hendry paid the price of a guy who would make the Cubs a LOT better.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't know Hendry said that
I think he gave up unproven for proven, Garza to me is a 2/3 type pitcher, at a reasonable cost for 3 years
Hendry did not.......
Pay the price of an “ace”……give it a rest. He didn’t pay the price of a Halladay, Cliff Lee, etc.
Hendry traded
1/3 of our top dozen prospects.
That’s the price of an ace.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Archer.....
as the top prospect is hardly a Justin Smoak or Kyle Drabek, to name a few top prospects that were traded for aces.
Fine. So we traded quantity instead.
So instead of trading an “elite” prospect that we didn’t have (I guess we can be “proud” of Hendry for not surrendering Brett Jackson), we traded our best SP, best IF, best C, and 2nd best OF.
Pardon me for not being thrilled at trading those guys away for a slight upgrade in SP, which our GM labels a top 10 pitcher.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
even though they might have been top prospects in our system they wern't ranked very high with the rest of baseball
and none of them really fit in the plans for the next 2 years..
Huh?
Archer is a top 50 prospect and Lee was top 100. That’s fairly well thought of.
And Lee is the only one who couldn’t contribute to the 2011 Cubs.
Chirinos could be a back-up catcher, Guyer a 4th or 5th OF and many/most thought Archer would be ready later this year.
Seeing as the Cubs have Koyie Hill on the roster and Perez might be the back-up RH OF, I’d say those two could’ve contributed.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Apples and oranges.
In 2011, no… Garza will be “more valuable”, though at ~$6M he’s not really “cheap”.
But #2-3 starters weren’t the problem… they already had/have #2 & 3 taken care of with Z and Dempster. The Cubs needs an ace.
And they just used a bunch of their trade chips, and ate up a fair chunk of their future salary space, to acquire Garza.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
were their any #1's avalible?
i’m sure the cubs would have given the same package for Grinkee, but it wouldn’t have gotten the deal done
No, it wouldn't.
But that’s not a reason to trade 1/3 of your top prospects for a #2/3 starter.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Oh wow.......
In 2011, no… Garza will be "more valuable", though at ~$6M he’s not really "cheap".
But #2-3 starters weren’t the problem… they already had/have #2 & 3 taken care of with Z and Dempster. The Cubs needs an ace.
So Garza is not cheap as a #2 starter, but Z and Demp are?
And Garza will not “eat up a fair chunk of their future salary space”-that honor belongs to Soriano, Z, Dempster, etc.
"Cheap" is relative, I suppose.
Garza’s salary is likely near $10M in 2012 and over that in 2013. I don’t think of that as “cheap”, even if Z and Dempster make more.
Just like I don’t consider Rafael Soriano a “cheap” pitcher for the Yankees just because Mariano, CC, and AJ all make more than he will.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Quit misrepresenting
Archer COULD be ready IF he develops a 3rd pitch AND control. You seriously sway the information to support your view man.
Well, until he was dealt....
Archer was being discussed by Hendry as a candidate for the rotation.
I take that to mean he wasn’t felt to be “far away”.
I’m well aware that Archer is far from a sure thing and have never pretended as such.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Doesn't matter.......
if they’re our “2nd best” etc………..the point is, they are not worth the price of an “ace” as you stated. I “pardon” the not being thrilled, but this overdramatization of the negative is a bit over board here.
The problem is it DOES matter.
Relative value matters.
And I’m not being overly dramatic, at all.
The Cubs SP got a little better by acquiring Garza. That’s good.
But Garza isn’t an ace (as Hendry has stated, or at worst inferred with his “top 10” comment) and the Cubs overpaid.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Once again...
false.
Price of the ace this offseason was a starting CF, SS, and the top 2 pitching prospects of the team getting him.
Insisting something is true doesn’t make it true.
Hell Halladay cost Phillie one of the best pitching prospects in baseball period, PLUS two other top 8 Phillie prspects…Please stop perpetrating lies.
I imagine the irony is lost on you.
Insisting something is true doesn’t make it true.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Its not arbitrary
I was comparing Homeruns because one of the concerns was his home run totals increasing and lessing his value moving to the NL central.
I picked top 3 because top 4 would include Cubs which he wont face. But even if you did top 4 it still favors the East. He plays a good amount of games against his division (16). 6 against the red sox who crushed him for 8 homeruns.
Im just trying to give balance to the bad stats towards Garza.
It is arbitrary because
he’s going to have 32-34 starts. Focusing on how he did in ~9 starts against selected division foes just isn’t that predictive.
And even if you want to be fascinated with how he did against those teams, it doesn’t “balance” out his stats over the course of a year.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
OK. And?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
OK 16 starts adding Orioles
Thats half his starts against better home runs clubs than the Reds, Cardinals, Brewers, and pirates
802 homeruns to 646.
Just pointing out that the 16 starts at “Home Run Friendly Wrigley” vs 16 starts against Home run Friendly Teams.
I dont think its silly to think his Home runs will stay the same or go down.
I point at home runs because it seems like a big factor to his ERA.
Maybe they will cancel out.
I just doubt it. I think a lot of those FB that used to land in the gap in Carl Crawford’s glove are now landing in the basket.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
This a thousand times.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Two responses.
First off, he may be in the rotation already anyway as the #5.
Secondly, the Quade quote that I paraphrased from you clearly indicated that, in the wake of the Gorzo trade, Quade was at least a little concerned that they have no left-handers in the rotation. Cashner does not solve that problem.
Ultimately, the Gorzelanny trade has to be considered in concert with the Garza trade. And it tilts the scales even further toward “what we gave away” vs. “what we got back”.
The whole thing makes sense if you honestly believe – as the Cubs do – that Matt Garza is a Top 10 overall pitcher in MLB.
If you believe – as many others do – that Matt Garza isn’t all that much better than Tom Gorzelanny, then it’s just an infuriating set of transactions that allowed the team to tread water with their rotation while dealing 4 of their top 12 prospects and adding to payroll.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 3:55 PM CST up reply actions 9 recs
It does appear...
…the Cubs leadership strongly believes that Matt Garza is either already a top of the rotation pitcher or that he will become one in the very near future.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Agree, but I think it also makes some sense if Garza is a top 30 MLB pitcher
That would be a pretty big upgrade over what they had previously. But, i don’t think Garza is anywhere close to that.
Matt Garza is not a top 10 pitcher, and top 15 or even 20 is pushing it.
And you’re right, D98, recommended.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I think hes around top 30 pitcher
Garza is ranked 31st, Lilly 28th, and Greinke 19th according to espn. http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?page=60F6I100930
although it doesnt have greinke’s and Garza’s move to the NL
Yeah, that's fantasy, but still somewhat useful.
FanGraphs, however, is a bit more helpful:
MLB WAR pitching leaders 2008 – 2010, Garza (7.9) is most comparable with Paul Maholm (8.0 or Mike Pelfrey (7.5). That puts him at the #41 spot for pitcher WAR.
MLB FIP leaders 2008 – 2010, Garza (4.24) is most comparable with Aaron Cook (4.23) and Edwin Jackson (4.32). He’s in the #13 spot for pitcher FIP.
Neither make me excited.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yuck
I can’t imagine anyone would be excited if we traded for Paul Maholm.
It’s amazing what pitching in the mythical AL East and the playoffs can do for your reputation.
Playoff experience!
We need playoff experience!
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
we should have swapped gorz for marquis
hendry, you fool!
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Jan 17, 2011 5:32 PM CST up reply actions
Have to ask a Saber guy about FIP
Is Matt Cain overated because he posts simiiar FIP’s but sports a low ERA. So is FIP always accurate if a pitcher keeps outperforming it?
Also i know baseball reference uses another method for WAR ,but it has Garza as 9 WAR over that time period
I'm no sabermetrician but...
Cain’s career ERA is 3.45; his FIP, 3.84.
FIP takes into account only the things he can control—homers, walks, and strikeouts. The rest (grounders, flies, liners, errors, etc.) are included in ERA. FIP is helpful because (at least in my mind) I envision the pitcher against the hitter and nobody else. Every other outcome depends on a defensive teammate. Since Cain has been in the league (2005) the Giants have been a pretty good defensive team.
Differences in ERA/FIP are accounted for by stuff like BaBIP, pitching with/out runners on base, liners, luck, etc. If I had to make a somewhat-educated guess, Cain benefits from a good defensive team behind him.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Not a Saber expert but what i read
Cain ranked high in LOB %. I think that being a good pitcher under pressure like him helped him. Lilly is another guy with a high LOB % and he performed above his FIP with out a good defense.
Matt garza has the 14th highest LOB % in 2008-2010. Batters have one of the lowest Batting averages against him w/risp. I think he continues to outperform his FIP.
Exactly.
Everyone is in love with Garza’s “name brand” and “stuff”.
Can you even imagine if we traded “just” HJ Lee (not to mention the others) for Maholm?? BCB would’ve literally exploded.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Just as an FYI
Matt Garza isn’t actually Paul Maholm.
No, he's not.
But he’s much, much closer to being Paul Maholm than being a TOR.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I'll disagree with that contention.
We know you don’t like this trade. However, I’d give it a year, at least, before you reach any conclusions on how it will help or hurt the team.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Fsuappollo made a factually correct statement
Based on past performance, Matt Garza is closer to Paul Maholm than Adam Wainwright.
Anybody know how Matt Garza compares to Ted Lilly before his move to the NL?
Both are from an AL East team so they faced the same teams basically. Though don’t think Matt had to face a team like the Rays were before 2007.
by ubercubsfan on Jan 18, 2011 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
I've been silently wishing...
…someone would write a Garza vs. Lilly comparison article just because so many Cubs fans are using Ted as a reason to be hopeful about Matt.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
done for you daver
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 18, 2011 6:54 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks!
I haven’t had a chance to read ubercubsfan’s Fanpost and the comments therein closely yet, but I’ll do so ASAP.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
I don't understand this post on many levels.
For one, I’ve said nearly countless times that Garza makes the Cubs better. My contention is that the improvement is not significant (i.e., Matt Garza makes the Cubs one, or at most two, games better than they were before).
Secondly, as has been discussed before, why do people who don’t like the trade have to wait to evaluate it, but those who like it don’t?
Again, as I have posted countless times, I am dying to be wrong. From a baseball perspective, there is absolutely nothing that would please me more than for Garza to be what Hendry thinks he is. But, when you look at things analytically, there’s not many reasons to believe that will be the case.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Jan 18, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And even if Garza is everything we all hope he is
We still paid TOR value at a time when his performance did not indicate he was that valuable. It could still look like a good deal in the long run if it all works out, but you usually gamble on upside when you have an opportunity to buy low. We bought high in anticipation of improvement.
I've seen this question raised many times here recently...
Secondly, as has been discussed before, why do people who don’t like the trade have to wait to evaluate it, but those who like it don’t?
…but have yet to see a tangible answer to it
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 18, 2011 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I asked it a week ago and never got a good response.
Double standards are fun!
by Schwa on Jan 18, 2011 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This quote comes to mind...

“Well… we’re waiting!”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I like the deal
and I think we have to wait and see how Garza does before we can full know if it was worth it or not.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jan 18, 2011 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
Correction
Garza is #48 in FIP, not #13. That’s out of 67 ranked pitchers.
I bet that makes you feel better.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Are you sorting by FIP? I see him 13th.
Or I’m doing it wrong.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
He's #13 on the 2nd page
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Damnit, I sorted it wrong.
You’re right, thanks, tharr. Garza is worse than I initially posted.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
If you look above
13 was a typo. He was 13th on the 2nd page… 48th overall.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Saw it...
as with any stat, it is what it is. Doesn’t really mean much all by it’s lonesome.
For instance...
I thought 13th in 2010 was impressive in the sense that it would have been 13th in 2010. Doesn’t mean much going forward…just that he was 13th in FIP in 2010. I could easily name 13 pitchers I think will be better than Garza next year, and the significance of that is also pretty small.
Is Ricky Nolasco better
Pretty good FIP. Had a 4.3 war with a 5 ERA how do you that? Hes above Cole Hamels in FIP
Hmpf, that is curious.
But that’s the power of FIP: 5.06 ERA/3.35 FIP/3.28 xFIP in 2009. Career high (thus far) BABIP of .336. Ricky ran into some very bad luck.
I also can’t help but notice that Randy Wells was more valuable than Nolasco in 2010. Interesting…
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
You should look at his stats with w/risp
He gets crushed. Gives up way more walks per ab and home runs so you cant blame the defense on that.
No, but RISP stats...
…usually come in small sample sizes. So they’re not the best predictors and, again, the bad luck thing may be more to blame.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
The guy must be very unlucky
Never comes close to his FIP.
I think someone should look at BABIP w/runners on and risp. Because it seems like one thing FIP cant account for is whether a pitcher pitches well under pressure.
I do think that Garza is a good bit better than Gorzelanny
But if they didn’t get actual prospects from the Nationals, it really looks like they gave up too much for that improvement. A trade of Gorzo, Archer, Lee, Chirinos. Guyer, and Fuld for Garza, a 4-5 outfielder and miscellaneous minor league spare parts doesn’t sound like much of a deal for the Cubs.
How much did they get for Lou Brock again?
I think
Archer is a relief pitcher. I don’t think Lee will have the glove to be a significant piece on the MLB club. I liked Chirinos a lot as a backup catcher, but Max Ramirez doesn’t look too much worse, if he can make the club. I don’t think Guyer or Fuld are prospects.
I think Garza is quite a bit of improvement over Gorzo.
I could be wrong about all of the above, but I think Hendry did a solid job upgrading the rotation without giving up anything we can’t live without. The prospects were highly rated now—but if Archer can’t continue his success as a 2-pitch pitcher in the big leagues, or if Lee continues to have a lot of errors and doesn’t improve his significantly, their value is going to drop a lot.
Hendry finally traded some guys at peak value. He traded Gorz, who he basically got for nothing a couple years ago, for 2 of a team’s top 20 prospects. Despite me being a card-carrying member of the fire Hendry club, I can acknowledge that he worked this fairly well. I’d rather have Adrian Gonzalez, but the club is better in the short term, and I don’t think it’s significantly worse off in the long term.
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Jan 17, 2011 9:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It certainly is possible, but you don't know that Hendry traded them at peak value.
Just as you noted above, since none of us know the future… we sure can’t say who was, or wasn’t, traded at “peak value” yet.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Michael Burgess is the OF
http://twitter.com/#!/jonmorosi/status/27092519946813440
If everybody likes you, then either no one knows anything about you, or you're dead.
Fantasy Prospect Central: http://fantasyprospectcentral.blogspot.com/
interesting
Burgess was viewed as a bust his first couple pro seasons, but when I saw him in Potomac in ’09, I was shocked by how clearly good his tools were. And he made some major strides in contact last season, while continuing to show excellent power. Not a bad start.
by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
Hate to see Gorzo go
But Burgess as part of the package back isn’t such a bad return. He does strike out a lot but has a ton of pop in his bat and as good an arm from RF that you’ll see. He was 21 last season and held is own fairly well in AA for a short period (1.000+ OPS in around 25 games).
He's a lefty
and was a Nats’ 1st round choice (20 something) in 2007
Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville
Way more athletic than Branyan though.
Burgess is a true outfielder, not a 1B posing at an outfielder like Branyan.
Good pickup.
He can hit for decent average, he talks walks, and he’s got power. Also was a high profile draft pick…
No lefties in the rotation?
Going to be rough against the Brewers and Phillies.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
true but...
how easy would it be with one lefty in the rotation?
But... but... we got left-handed power in the lineup now. LOL.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
point taken Sackman! LOL
I forget, how’d that work out last time… ?
I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".
Sadly
It can’t be Harper. They can’t trade him until they’ve had him a year.
I'll take Strasburg "on the cheap"
and wait out the TJ surgery ;).
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 17, 2011 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
Gorzo Fleecing
I think the prospects are two nobodies named Stephen Strasburg and Bryce Harper. The Nats became impatient with them. (Sigh) Seems like the Cubbies got fleeced again. This is like Groundhog Day—-the names may change but the concept remains intact.
but if it were Harper,
what with Koyie Hill?
Unless the prospects are somewhat decent, this is kind of dumb.
Gorzelanny was a nice guy to have around. 2 million for a nice lefty who can spot start or go long relief would have been a fine price to pay.
I agree
I don’t see the point of this move except to save $2million, which when you just gave $850k to Koyie Hill seems pretty dumb.
Maybe because they have 16 starting pitchers?
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
Why can't some of them be in the bullpen?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
Even without Gorz
The bullpen still includes Marmol, Wood, Cashner, Marshall, Russell.
Not to mention guys like Samardzija, Coleman, McNutt, Jay Jackson…
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
Wait, Shark is in the rotation...remember?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
dont even joke about that
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Jan 17, 2011 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You're not going to mention
Samardzija. Cool.
Keep McNutt in the minors all 2011. He doesn’t become eligible for the Rule 5 draft in December. Keep him off the 40 man so he can pitch through the strike/lockout.
Then maybe they shouldn't have traded 4 good prospects for Matt Garza
If they get something decent for Gorz, this is a fine move. Otherwise, it seems dumb.
AKA, the MO of the Chicago Cubs.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
I wonder if Maddux
approved this one. j/k. kind of.
Can we stop this now
Just because Greg Maddux is working in the front-office doesn’t mean that all their moves are going to be good. I am already tired of this meme.
I'm not necessarily saying this move is good or bad.
Just that Maddux is likely consulted on everything.
The Cubs had some rotation depth. Gorzo was the most tradeable. Thus, he was traded. Obviously, we’d have liked it better if they could have moved Carlos Silva, but that probably wasn’t possible.
I don’t love this move, but neither do I hate it.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
"tradeable" players are usually used to get things of value...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 2:29 PM CST up reply actions
We don't know if the people coming in have value or not, yet.
Most posters here are assuming the worst, apparently.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That line of thinking has seemed to be the most rational these last few decades.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's a real time-saver.
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and heart saver.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You've pretty much summed up my thoughts on this move.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Quit playng it so safe...
“nice” isn’t the goal.
I love how aggressive the Cubs are being this offseason. We’ve added some good MLB talent, decent minor league talent, and only gave up a nice ML pitcher and some decent prospects.
Playing it safe should be the goal when assembling a bullpen.
I look back on the prospects the Cubs got in return and I’m not too mad about the deal—I think Hendry did all right on this one.
But “decent minor league talent” is about all you can say about it. And I think you are undervaluing what we gave up. They aren’t just “decent prospects.” They were definitely “high quality prospects.” Whether they will be “high quality major leaguers” we won’t know for awhile—but they are more than decent prospects.
But still, after last season’s failure of a bullpen, I’m of the mindset that you can never have enough cheap and young veteran pitchers who are dependable (and left-handed to boot).
I really hate this
It is hard to imagine the any of the guys will be top flight and lefty starters are at a premium.
I think this is a sell low we have to many back end starters. This is another domino from the Garza trade.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 17, 2011 2:24 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I don't know
I understand the importance of a lefty ( please no Russell in the rotation) however the Cubs still have depth in the rotation. Coleman and Carpenter could be options as well.
If this Burgess kid is included in the deal, I will take it. This is Gorzo not Cliff Lee, Gorzo is a 5th starter period.
This is the point in a nutshell.
I don’t even know that Garza is an upgrade from Lilly. But it appears we just gave up 4 of our top 12 prospects, and Tom Gorzelanny, to find out.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Are there any people here who liked the Garza trade but hate this one?
Because that would not make sense.
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:27 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
It was logical BEFORE the Garza trade.
Considering the team’s SP depth.
But I agree.
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
He might have been.
Now, this could free up some money for a mid season acquisition, possibly.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That doesn't make a lot of sense
I can’t imagine another team is going to give up a cost-controlled player (a full-priced MLB player of Gorz’s value won’t be available for $2million) without us trading more prospects.
Isn't it more likely
This was necessitated because of acquiring Garza?
Deferring some of Pena’s $, having to get Wood’s small salary approved, and then acquiring Garza surely meant some other money had to be dealt, no?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Yeah...like trading for a LH starting pitcher...
…this trade was beyond stupid.
"I think part of a best friend's job should be to immediately clear your computer history if you die." - Anonymous
Boy, I sure am going to miss saying "Gorzo"
When is the last time the Cubs didn’t have a lefty in the starting rotation?
Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!
The 2002 Cubs had no LHP in the rotation.
Wood, Prior, Lieber, Bere, Clement, Zambrano started 127 of the 162 games.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And that team was terrible.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
But not because of the starting pitching.
Check it out. Except for Bere, the other five starters did a very good job. The bullpen is what doomed that team.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I know, that was a bad team...
…And that’s pre-injuries Lieber. Was Fassero still closing then?
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Only for the first half of the season.
He was good in 2001, awful in 2002, eventually traded to the Cardinals.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
For a team that was as bad as that one....
I don’t have the heart to research who started the other 35 games. I’d be willing to bet the names on the list would make any Cub fan sick to their stomach.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
It is quite
Juan Cruz 9
Alan Benes 7
Steve Smyth 7
Pat Mahomes 2
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I don't hate it but don't get it
And while it might be a domino from the Garza trade Gorz was mentioned as trade bait well before that trade – I just don’t why they were so eager to move him and/or announce he was available
Michael Burgess
Ranked the number 8 Nationals prospect by Sickels. Unfortunately they apparently have a terrible Minor League system because Sickels only has him as a C+. For comparison purposes, Guyer was a B-.
Michael Burgess, OF, Grade C+: Borderline B-. Power, arm strength, don’t expect batting average.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/11/27/1839272/washington-nationals-top-20-prospects-for-2011
I was thinking when I looked at his stats
I thought weaker version of Guyer.
Burgess
has more potential than Guyer. Guyer doesn’t have the tools that Burgess does. I like this trade.
And he projects to have way more power...
Guy hit 24 between low and high A in ’08…18 last year between high A and AA at 21…6 in 87 PA in AA.
as Callis just said on Twitter
he’s better (and younger) than Guyer, Sickels was way off there (overrating Guyer)
Jim Callis
Burke doesn’t have Burgess’ power. @crocketttm: So how does Burgess differ from Kyler Burke? That seems to be Burke’s exact profile
by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
Frankly, more than I thought we'd be getting.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Goz
has never really amounted to anything. Big deal they traded away a pitcher. It does remain to be seen if as a LH he matures this year or next.
Is it April yet?
Let's all keep in mind that it's the so-called "marginal players/prospects"
that were used to acquire Gorz. ( Kevin Hart, Jose Ascanio & Josh Harrison)
Hey, it's a new century!
Ah, the old
We traded a walkman to get this iPod, so who cares if we give it away for free argument.
by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Correct.
Hopefully one of three that came in this trade will amount to a decent player, it is a win.
The Cubs have done a pretty good job
of acquiring some of these types of players and using them in trades to acquire useful pieces.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 17, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
Harrison
might end up being a good major leaguer one day. Hart and Ascanio are disposable relievers, at best.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2011 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
this argument is so damn dumb.
“Hey, we actually probably came out ahead in a deal, so let’s turn around and see if we can’t erase that gain!”
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Al, I am NOT re-writing the Top 20 prospects again
But Burgess would probably check in around #8 or #9 in our system. Kevin Goldstein at BP ranked him as the #7 prospect in the Nats system. Young kid with great power. Works the count deep, which leads to a lot of BBs and a lot of Ks. Goldstein does question his bat speed.
All in all, a great pickup for Gorzelanny.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2011 2:37 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
On that note,
I like this trade. If Josh puts the guy in our Top dozen, it earns my stamp regardless the two pitchers. With all the new guys, I’ll rely on other people’s prospect lists this year.
Garza Trade
He wouldn’t rank top 10 if the four guys ranked ahead of him hadn’t gone in the Garza trade. He’d be around #12 with Archer, Chirinos, Guyer and Lee in the system.
Burgess reminds me of Reggie Golden, our second round pick this year.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
That's good to know.
Hopefully, Burgess will be in the top 10 next year, also.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Back end of the top 10 sounds about right
Great tools, questionable production, still young enough to make a breakthrough.
The fact that a player with his profile is in the Cubs’ system is a bit disconcerting. We haven’t had a strong track record with guys like Burgess.
by Outshined_One on Jan 17, 2011 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
Well, that's some good news.
He sounds a bit like Carlos Pena.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Should have traded Wells.
Russell to the rotation is interesting.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
OK, let's make the question different.
You have to pick one starter to deal. Who, and why?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
TRICK QUESTION
Z, because he is unstable and lazy and stuff.
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
LOL
But you can’t do that due to the NTC. Try again.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There's got to be a clause in the NTC
that states “If the player is certifiably crazy, you can trade him anyway.”
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Well, I would never have acquired Garza
Assuming that I can’t trade Silva, I guess I would choose Gorz. But, I reject the premise.
Why?
Since your answer is premised on not acquiring Garza, it’s not logical.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I reject the premise that they had to trade a starter
Even after acquiring Garza I think they should have kept Gorz.
Why?
The Cubs have about eight people competing for five spots. You’d keep him just because he’s a LHP?
That’s not an unreasonable position, mind you. But the reflexive “this is awful” before you even hear what the Cubs got in return, that’s what bothers me.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Because I know the prospects will be worse than what we gave up for Garza
That’s why I hate it. In isolation the move might turn out to be a good trade, but if the Cubs thought they had an excess of starting pitching the Garza trade just makes no sense.
You "know" this?
Do tell.
Yes, I’m aware that Archer and Lee are regarded more highly than whoever we get. But until any of them play in the major leagues, you can’t make that judgment, in my opinion.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Then how do you
“know” that Garza will be better than what he’s been (or what we had)… when there’s nothing or, very little, statistically to support it?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I think there's a bit more evidence for that than for untested minor leaguers, don't you?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This is such a hair-pulling argument
All minor leaguers aren’t equal Al. Saying it over-and-over again doesn’t make it so. Sure, we don’t know how they are going to pan out, but we clearly gave up more value in the Garza deal than we got back in the Gorz deal.
by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No, they are not equal, but the evidence that these particular ones are
worth more than Garza in open for debate also. Stating that the Garza deal is bad over-and-over again doesn’t make it so either. You don’t like the deal. We get it.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
And many on here are fine
with trading 1/3 of our top dozen prospects for a modest upgrade at SP, which was the position of relative strength for this team.
We get that, too.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's not open for debate
We gave up two top 100 prospects and 2 B-/C+type prospects for Garza. We are getting back 2 B-/C+ type prospects for Gorz.
These two trades in combination made our minor league system weaker. That really isn’t up for debate.
by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Sure it's open to debate. You have an opinion and so do I. Just because you don't
agree with it doesn’t make it any less legitimate than yours. You can try and state your opinion as fact until the cows come home, but it’s still your opinion. It hasn’t been proven and it won’t be proven until the careers of the players are more established.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This is what you are arguing
You are arguing that Michael Burgess + AJ Morris > Chris Archer, HJ Lee, Brandon Guyer and Robinson Chirinos.
You really want to go out on that limb? Because from my vantage point, that seems pretty silly.
by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm just open to the possibility that the combination of Archer and
Lee aren’t the second coming of Nolan Ryan and Ozzie Smith. Sure, they are nice prospects and there is a chance that they could develop into really good major league players, but I’m not as sure of that as you are. It’s just an opinion and I’m not going to damn you for disagreeing with it.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure of it either
I am sure that they have a better chance than the guys we got back in this Gorz trade.
We are probably in agreement on that. The fact that the names
weren’t mentioned doesn’t bode well for their futures. This trade may be the last you ever hear of them.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:34 PM CST up reply actions
and Gorz
is a guy the talent starved Pirates sent back to the minors to delay his arbitration.
Garza was a key pitcher for a playoff calibre team the last few years.
I’m not sold on the Garza trade yet, but Garza is a much more ‘projectible’ pitcher than Gorz.
I love that the pro-Garza camp
Dismisses prospects because they could never contribute while relying on Garza’s “projectability” and stuff at the same time.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
were you surprised
when he threw a No Hitter?
everyone is surprised when someone throws a no-hitter.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
Sure. I'm surprised when anyone throws a no-hitter.
Were you surprised when Dallas Braden threw a perfect game?
What’s the point?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I don't think Gorz
is a very good big league pitcher. I’d be stunned if he pitched a no-no.
He’ll do fine in Washington where nobody cares how he does.
I’m not sold on the Garza deal, but Garza >>>Gorz.
Those of us opposed to the Garza trade realize Garza is better than Gorz.
The “problem” is the difference is not nearly what you might think it is.
It is more like Garza>Gorz. And last year, Gorz was more valuable in his limited starts than Garza was all season.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
You're not going to
hang your hat on the Pirates’ ability to evaluate talent, are you?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Nah, but if he
was appearing as good as Zach Duke was looking, they’d have kept Gorz.
But these trades also made the Cubs major league teambetter,
at least IMO. Garza is an upgrade over Wells/Gorz and is a likely replacement for Dempster long term.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I agree with that
I don’t think the upgrade from Gorz to Garza was worth the premium prospects we gave up. But, I suppose that at least can be argued.
I don’t see how you can argue in good faith that the haul of prospects we got back in the Gorz deal is better than what we gave up for Garza.
I can't either.
But what’s done is done. I think Garza is going to be good here. Archer might turn out fine, we didn’t need Lee or Chirinos or Fuld. Garza is an upgrade to our rotation and should be our #2 for the foreseeable future.
Gorzelanny is not as good as Garza, that’s why what we got in return for him wasn’t as high.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
As you know, I'm "with you" on this argument.
But, the actual “math” of the equation would be: Michael Burgess + AJ Morris + (Garza-Gorz) > Chris Archer, HJ Lee, Brandon Guyer and Robinson Chirinos.
Now you and I believe that “>” should be a “<”, in part because the difference between Garza and Gorz is not that large.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I think this is the statement that started this sub-thread
we clearly gave up more value in the Garza deal than we got back in the Gorz deal.
For some reason Willie Mays Hayes tried to argue with that statement.
Nope wrong. I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth, now.
I can make a silly wrong-headed argument all by myself, thank you. I just differ with your opinion of the players in the original Garza deal. I would never go out on a limb and try to justify that deal by stating that we got equal value in this deal. I have no idea of what we got today. The fact that names weren’t probably means we didn’t get much.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
Either you misunderstood me or I stated it poorly. I
wasn’t intimating that this deal made up for the Garza deal. In my opinion, that deal did not have to be made up for at all.
"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris
by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
But that isn't the question.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
If Garza isn't a good pitcher
the trade with TB was bad.
Because Gorzelanny has a higher ceiling IMO.
Wells is an overrated pitcher who is inconsistent and throw very hittable stuff. Plus we now have a better version of him called Matt Garza.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I'd disagree with you.
Maybe lefties mature later and maybe he’ll do OK in Washington.
But I still think Wells is a solid #4 guy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think Wells is a nice #4.
I just think Gorzelanny is a better pitcher he out-performed Wells last season despite splitting time in the bullpen/rotation.
Gorzelanny will have a good year in Washington and will then sign with the White Sox as a free-agent.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Good point, I don't believe he is, yet.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
According to his bb-ref page he's not eligible for FA till 2014.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Nope. Arb 3 next year.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I was going off Cot's. They had him listed as arb 3 next year.
Oh well…. point being, he isn’t a FA after next year.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I just have a hunch that he'll end up with the Sox
and Don Cooper will help him.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
really?
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 17, 2011 6:40 PM CST up reply actions
Oh lord.
The no lefties in the rotation is a bit unsettling. Once I see the names in the trade I will formulate an opinion. Too bad they couldn’t move Silva.
"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 17, 2011 2:45 PM CST reply actions
I'd like to see the catapult that could send Silva flying.
I’m picturing a Monty Python kind of image.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Actually, I'd just like to see the fail whale picture again.
First time I saw it I got everyone in the office looking my way I laughed so hard
His rotundness would equate to him making as much
damage as an actual cannonball.
"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 17, 2011 5:51 PM CST up reply actions
There were no bulldozers available.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
Beat the Chicago Bears, THEN I'll talk about the Packers being in the Super Bowl. But not until that happens.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 17, 2011 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
Daley rented them for years to a private company?
good grief.
"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 17, 2011 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah,
He sent them to a private firm so Meigs Field was no longer an airport.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
Beat the Chicago Bears, THEN I'll talk about the Packers being in the Super Bowl. But not until that happens.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 17, 2011 9:05 PM CST up reply actions
Well... would've liked to keep Gorzo, but this was going to happen.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Confused
I’m confused as to what the plan is here ? No lefty in the rotation ?
Therein lies the problem!
THERE IS NO PLAN!
JOKE’S ON US!
BUAHWHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAA
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
It's gonna be interesting to see how Gorz and Garza do this season
I have a feeling it will be a lot closer than their respective trade values.
AJ Morris
is one of the pitchers, according to the twitters
he's a 4th round pick, so he must have some talent haha.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 17, 2011 2:56 PM CST up reply actions
stats are here, nothing special
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=morris001aj-
Sickels had him at #17, but “liked him better than the stats” said he should
by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 2:56 PM CST up reply actions
I like his low BB/HR numbers - both very good..
But he’s a low-minor prospect who’s already 24, so is kind of a long shot just by virtue of that alone. If he’s maintaniing his current stats at AA in the next year, then maybe we’ve got something, but that’s a big if just like it always is with prospects.
by DisCUBbobulated on Jan 17, 2011 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
Baseball America
hasn’t released their Nats Top 30 yet, but in a chat they said Burgess would be “Closer to 20.” (Presumably around #18 or so, give or take one). They love his power and his arm, but question his approach at the plate. They also said he was young and could still be a good player.
don't worry folks.
Morris will have a great year next year and will be ranked top 5 in the Cubs farm system. People will adore him and never want him to be traded.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
Sure
If Burgess turns out to be a MLB outfielder, then this will be a decent deal. I still think the whole trade for Garza-and then-deal-Gorz plan seems really dumb. But, whatever.
if it makes you feel better
gorz was pretty much off the team the second brian wilson struck out nelson cruz
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Jan 17, 2011 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, that actually would make me feel better about this deal
If this trade had nothing to do with the Garza deal, then if they got fair value, then it’s fine. But, I don’t see how they aren’t related. I mean, why would you trade for a starter if you already thought you had too many.
I believe I can speak for everyone when I say...
… we understand that you didn’t like the Garza deal and do not like the Gorzo deal.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
by Ross on Jan 17, 2011 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
...and then he will be traded....
for another mediocre big league player.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 3:12 PM CST up reply actions
Baseball America on Morris
" Morris really clicked after moving to the bullpen, showing a 93-95 mph fastball with serious life, and I think he’ll be a quality bullpen option in the majors pretty quickly."
They have him ranked in the 11-20 range.
Kevin Goldstein on Morris
“17. A.J. Morris, RHP: He’s a classic sinker/slider type who might work better in a relief role.”
That’s ranked #17 in the Nats system.
?
I’m not being sarcastic when I ask if anyone has any real insight into what the plan is for this season . Hendry makes a big trade to land an 8th starter causing a log jam and the guy he moves to make room is the only lefty in the rotation ? I REALLY don’t understand this anymore .
"Hendry makes a big trade to land an 8th starter causing a log jam "
what?
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 17, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
the real plan is to not lose 100 games
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
Look, it's not easy to fill out an 8-man rotation.
The deal had to be made.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
There's no rule
saying you HAVE to have a lefty. Get over it. You pitch your best 5 guys.
by Ryno G on Jan 17, 2011 3:03 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Gorzo was the one dragging Wells out at nights
He was the Mark Grace to Randy’s young Kerry Wood – had to get rid of him to save the future!!!!
by doofusguy on Jan 17, 2011 3:05 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Gorzo was the one dragging Wells out at nights
Got any proof of this?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There has to be a unnamed source
somewhere
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
isn't Gorz married?
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 17, 2011 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
Do you have a source?
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 3:09 PM CST up reply actions
Wow, I have to say,
Only a doofus would say something like this. ;-)
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
Beat the Chicago Bears, THEN I'll talk about the Packers being in the Super Bowl. But not until that happens.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 17, 2011 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
JSB
Let me start by saying I think you are spot-on most of the time. In this case, I think you are a bit off base. Clearly, the Cubs don’t feel that Gorz is one of their top 5 starting options. That fact coupled with the 2mil they clearly need to cover the budget would indicate they should move him. Moving him now before it becomes too apparent how little he figures into their plans makes a lot of sense. He is unnecessary and and would be overpaid in the pen. Furthermore, this is the last season that Gorz would come very cheaply as he enters final arb yr next season.
That is a good argument
I think the reason I hate this trade is not the trade itself. It actually seems like the Cubs got some decent prospects back for Gorz. I really hate this trade because I just see it as part of the Garza trade.
If the Cubs didn’t think Gorzellany was one of their 5 best starting pitchers even before the Garza trade, then i guess it’s fine.
Garza's No Hitter
and solid seasons surprised few. If Gorz were to put up a low-WHIP, high K/9 IP, the MLB world would be surprised.
For that talent step=up, you surrender more high-end prospects.
Gorz was pretty comparable to Garza last season
He was also formerly a pretty good prospect. Gorzo has talent. It really wouldn’t surprise me that much if he had a better season than Garza.
This is why the Cubs should have dealt Wells.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I disagree.
And Wells is very trade-able. I can see why the Cubs kept him, he’s cheaper and younger than Gorzelanny. But I feel that Gorzelanny is a better pitcher with a higher ceiling. Wells over-achieved in 2009 IMO.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Wells got overworked in 2009
All the rest of the starters broke down. Verducci effect hinted at a bad 2010. If he has his head on straight, he could make for a good 4 until he gets too expensive.
Dateline: September 29, 2011
CHICAGO (AP)——-Addressing the media following his club’s pedestrian 80-82 season, Cubs’ GM Jim Hendry talked about his plan for the offseason.
“We feel like we’re just one or two pieces away from bringing Cubs’ fans the championship they deserve,” Hendry stated with confidence. “I appreciate the show of support from the Ricketts family as we continue that championship pursuit.”
When pressed for specifics, Hendry was clear.
“Our starting rotation was solid, but obviously we’d like to get a little more left-handed. We’ll look around and see if we can add a young left-handed starter to what we already have here. Then you look at middle of the order power maybe needing a boost and adding a lead-off hitter. We’ll continue to try and shore up the defense and strengthen the bullpen… but like I said, this team is only one or two pieces away from being a championship club. And I look forward to putting those pieces in place.”
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:38 PM CST reply actions 10 recs
Is it sad that whenever I read an article with quotes from Hendry,
I can’t tell if it’s real or from The Heckler?
by Schwa on Jan 17, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
There's no way in hell we win 80 games in 2011. Unless you combine spring training wins with regular season wins.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
What will the S&P500 close at that day?
I mean, it looks like you have this “view of the future” thing down cold. Might as well make some money from it……
I can almost see/hear the press conference, with some member of the Ricketts family standing by and nodding sagely. Is it February 2 yet?
Well, this is goodbye to Gorzo.
My best (and really only) memory of Gorzelanny in a Cubs uniform is when I went to see him pitch on Sunday night baseball against the Phillies.
Wonderful night, first game in the bleachers.
I wish him well from here on.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
Beat the Chicago Bears, THEN I'll talk about the Packers being in the Super Bowl. But not until that happens.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 17, 2011 3:50 PM CST reply actions
Decent return for Gorzo but
I don’t like no lefties in the starting rotation. I think mixing up the rotation helps.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I prefer a lefty or two in the rotation as well...
…but not enough to try and shoehorn James Russell in there. (Not that you’re saying we should.)
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Agree completely on that as well.
Russell should stay in the pen.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I think it's a solid value return
usually when Hendry trades away players, the guys we get aren’t on any list of the system’s top prospects, and these 2 guys are both top 10-20 (albeit in a weak system).
I do wish Hendry would’ve adressed some of the near-term needs of the team and system, that being corner infielders and outfielders. We’ve got enough center field/4th outfielder prospects and big-league players to fill 10 rosters, and so many starters we can’t give them away, but don’t have a single 3B or 1B prospect that anyone has confidence will matriculate, and we’re lucky that Soriano is here forever to block prospects because we don’t have any power-hitting outfielder either.
We’re either going to pay a ton of money on the FA market to fill the power void over the next 2 years, or we are going to have one weak-hitting lineup.
I know you don’t draft/make trades for minor leaguers to fill needs in general, but at some point players become redundant, and needs become prominent.
DEJESUS!!!
On the Nats board
they say the OF is blocked by Werth and Harper.
I am worried that other teams will not trade with us anymore!
The way Washington was just fleeced makes me worried the other GMs will not want to be taken advantage of the way Hendry does to other teams!
Its bad publicity! Then on top of it they have to hear how Maddux approves as well!
Its just to much!
We can be happy that Hendry is on our side!!!!
i dont see why
people are down about this trade. We got good value in return
Compare this value
to what we gave up just two years back for the same guy. Win.
I think that's a bad argument
I saw it used with Chris Archer too. If you think the Cubs got good value for Gorz, that’s one thing. But what we gave up to get him really shouldn’t effect how we feel about this trade.
i see your point
i think they got value back. I still really liked Gorz and his xFIP but Wells, Gorz, Dempster are basically the same pitcher so we were going to lose one of them.
I see your point.
But I don’t think it’s disastrous if the Cubs don’t have a LHP in the rotation.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
its not
but i would be the farm that like the poster mentioned above you can just see the 2011 press conference where JH bemoans the lack of LH starting pitcher.
yeah
the one thing i really do like is Burgess is a power hitting prospect which outside of Reggie Golden our system lacks
Other than
to give a hat tip to Hendry for essentially “flipping” Gorz for 2 years of his control at a cheap price and an upgrade in prospects.
DEJESUS!!!
I have posted a poll on the right sidebar on this deal.
Please vote.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Just catching up on all the comments.
If Josh is giving this a tentative thumbs up, then I will, too. Gorzo didn’t have much of a place in the rotation (maybe even before the Garza trade). Assuming this isn’t Michael Wuertz Redux, I’m fine with this move.
Best Wishes Gorz
Team guy, did everything he was supposed to do, will be missed
I think Marshall should get a shot at starting
13- Warner, 23- Sandberg, 40- Tillman, 11- Walter
I'm under the impression Gorz was dealt to try and clear up a logjam in the rotation.
Not sure how getting rid of one guy and throwing another in the mix helps solve that problem.
+1
Plus, Marshall was great last year as a late-inning setup guy. Given all that hasn’t gone well for the Cubs in the past two seasons, sticking with one thing that actually did might be a good idea.
I held out hope that Marshall would get a legit shot at the rotation for the last few years.
It’s obvious that’s just not gonna happen. And I’ve come to embrace the fact that he’s a very solid bullpen piece.
I think his best spot is as a reliever.
He seems better pitching more often than going deep into starts.
Graham Hicks is the third player in the deal.
Via this tweet from William Ladson.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He no likey
Hagerstown. At least the others look legit.
I actually like Hicks a good bit
big projectable lefty, stuff hasn’t developed as much as they hoped for a guy who’s 6’5, but not bad. strikes guys out, a bit too hittable still. this is the type of guy the Cubs have had success developing, unlike Burgess (who I think was a good get despite that fact).
If these are the three guys, I think it’s a pretty decent bunch for a 28 year old swingman
by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 4:58 PM CST up reply actions
A 28-year-old swingman ...
who was fighting four guys (five, if you count Russell) for two spots.
Given the Cubs’ apparent faith in Cashner to land one of those jobs and the fact that Wells really didn’t pitch that badly last season and his comments about being too big for his britches … I think Gorzo was replaceable.
I really respect those of you
who have knowledge of guys like this…. without having to look through your notes. I can’t keep our guys straight all the time. To have the Nats system down as well. Kudos
ha
I lived in DC for a few years, and got a steady diet of Nats news…can’t name every team’s top 30, unfortunately. hopefully the Cubs will keep trading with the teams I do know
by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
5+ ERA in successive trips to
the equivalent of Peoria will do that.
Just curious
Is there a way to turn off the comments portion of the website??
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 17, 2011 5:07 PM CST reply actions
Well, seriously.
Saying you’re against comments on a blog (even to make a point) is like saying you don’t like wheels on a car.
No
it’s like saying I don’t like the car stereo. The car still works and gets me where I want to go. I’m just not annoyed when I get there.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 17, 2011 5:25 PM CST up reply actions
Hilarious crack
by the way about the newspaper. Except I live 800 miles north of Vancouver BC. Not a lot of Chicago papers up here.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 2:18 AM CST up reply actions
Dude, seriously, don't read the goddamn comments if they annoy you so much.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
you don't like the comments portion
but you apparently like the signature portion.. ;)
by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
I don't like it
I love it.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 17, 2011 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
ya
there are these arrows on the right hand side of the screen – one pointing up and one pointing down…the up one keeps the comments from appearing, the down one should not be used by you
by hansman1982 on Jan 18, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
I don't actually use the arrows
my mouse has a track ball. And I usually press ‘Z’ to get new comments. But thanks for your help. Very useful.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
Why do you press 'Z' to get new comments if you don't want to read comments?
You’re making very little sense. That’s why you’re getting snarky responses.
What doesn't make sense?
I don’t always want to read the comments but they are there so I end up reading them. I was just curious if you could turn them off. Some of the comments and threads are worth reading sometimes I wish I could turn them off for a while. I am a complex person.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
Well I am sure glad I asked
So I guess I will assume the answer to my question is no? Since no one was willing to give me a straight answer.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
In all seriousness...
…I’m fairly certain there’s no way to eliminate or turn off the comments. You could check in with the SB Nation support guys for a definitive answer.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
right under the red bar
set your comments setting to “collapsed”, and then uncheck the auto-refresh box.. Then, first thing, hit when you come to a page. That will mark all comments as read.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jan 18, 2011 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah not really a full solution
but thanks for the suggestion.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 5:37 PM CST up reply actions
well the easiest answer
is to not scroll down to the comments, read the article and move on…you dont need something to stop you from doing something when you can just stop doing that something
I can stop doing
and have at times. I was just wondering if I could turn it off is all.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
If you can turn it off, won't you be tempted to turn it back on, just like you're currently tempted to read them?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
hey Cmon! The internet is supposed to hold his hand and save him from himself!
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
What's the old saying?
Ask a fantastically stupid question, get a stupid answer?
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Should have waited
So we get to Spring Training and a starter or two goes down ( like that will never happen).
While there is a risk Gorzo gets injured it is one worth taking as they did not get that much in return. I think his value would have gone up in Spring Training because of problems with other starting pitchers. Between having no lefty starters and the return I think it would have been better to hold him for a while.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
but we can now work on the Prosects
we traded for now.
I blame this all on
Theriot. It is his fault.
"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 17, 2011 5:49 PM CST reply actions
True!
"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 17, 2011 11:25 PM CST up reply actions
Why did we have to trade Gorzo?
He had a lot of good games and I didn’t think he was costing the Cubs that much money. I realize we are getting 3 for 1, but I suspect the 3 won’t make it. You hope so, but so few actually do! I still don’t get it, are we trying to improve our club or cut costs? Gorzo seemed like a cheap investment and a valuable commodity.
After Garza was acquired, Gorzo made the most sense to trade.
Of the other guys in competition for the No. 4-5 spots, Gorzo was the most expensive guy who had any chance of bringing anything back in a trade. No team is gonna pay even $2 million for Carlos Silva, and why would anybody want Shark at this point?
I don’t hate this trade because I get the idea of dealing from strength. The Cubs had five or six guys competing for two spots, so they traded the one they thought could bring in the best haul without seriously hurting the team going forward. Also, with four lefties vying for bullpen spots, the Cubs don’t really have a need for Gorzo as a reliever.
I don’t know if I like this trade either, because I worry that this will be Michael Wuertz redux. I don’t hate the idea of dealing Gorzo — even though it potentially could make the Garza trade look worse. But I sure hope Hendry got something back in return. Otherwise …
True that Gorzo
probably doesn’t fit into the plans of a WS club. However, let’s look deeper at the trade. The Nats had tried to bolster their rotation with attempts to snag Lee and Grienke. Obviously they were not successful, but also, obviously, they have serious money to spend. That dictates the bargaining positions of both the Cubs and Nets. We all know Gorzelanny is cheap and a LHP.
The Cubs were in no hurry to trade TG. Despite all of this we received very little in prospect value. Again, it merely reinforces my contention that Hendry is a poor negotiator. I still haven’t perceived a valid organizational plan for the future. As for now, the plan seems to be reducing costs, raising prices and getting tax money wherever possible. What I haven’t seen is accountability from the decision makers. Perhaps someone has some comments from Maddux which will make me feel all warm and fuzzy.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Maddux approved the Garza trade, so it's a good one.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
From Maddux's lips to our ears
Can I assume he disapproved of this trade since Hendry hasn’t used him as a source?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Yeah, I did see that from Josh.
There’s just no clear plan here. And the lack of lefties is…odd.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I'm not sure it's that big of a deal.
The ’03 Cubs had a lefty in the rotation — but it was Shawn freaking Estes, who was just terrible that year. The ’04 team, which actually won more games than the ’03 team, started the season with five righties (Rusch was signed mid-season).
Granted Wood-Prior-Clement-Maddux-Z is a lot stronger than Z-Dempster-Garza-Cashner-Wells. But we have seen two Cubs teams in the past decade win 88 or more games without a significant lefty starter.
I think
he got a pretty good return for Gorz. Gorz is a 4th starter whose value gets a little boost because he’s cheap and left-handed. I think 2 of a team’s top 15 or 20 is a solid return.
DEJESUS!!!
Believe it or not, I agree.
I don’t have any issue with the return on this trade.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Entering the discussion late
but all you need to know about Burgess is he’s a power hitter with bad contact from Tampa. A Hendry home boy, aka left-handed Ryan Harvey. I’m not expecting much from him.
On the other hand, I could see them pushing Morris as a reliever all the way up to AAA by the end of the year to see whether they have anything in him.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
From Bruce Miles.....
http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/5088
He posts this insider link from the Nats perspective….some of the people on their message board are upset over losing Morris.
http://natsinsider.blogspot.com/2011/01/nats-get-gorzelanny-for-3-prospects.html#comments
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
From some guy…
This is going to come back and haunt Nats Nation within 2 years. A.J. Morris was the second best pitching prospect I’ve seen in 3 years of watching Fall Instructional League. You don’t have to be very baseball knowledgeable to know who was #1.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 17, 2011 7:53 PM CST up reply actions
Hope like heck that guy/gal is right. Though scouts surely don't seem to agree.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
This was a salary-driven move
Let’s not forget that the Ricketts’ shot most of their wad on just buying the team – they’ve said from the gitgo that they were going to cut salary expenses. Hopefully one of the prospects will be Major League-worthy; I’m not going to grouse until Gorzelanny throws his no-hitter and the three “prospects” are driving Budweiser trucks.
"The problem with the world is everyone is a few drinks behind" - Humphrey Bogart
Here's a decent article about Gorz
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/what-is-tom-gorzelanny/
I liked Gorz, seemed like a good guy, but anyone who thinks Garza is barely better than Gorz is a little deranged.
Chicago fan stuck in Florida.
RIP Ron Santo
Cameron makes some good points
I think Gorzo is a bit better than he gives him credit for, but the inconsistencies are definitely there. It will be interesting to see how he does in Washington.
I think a lot of that depends on whether you think Gorzo's 2008 was an anomaly
That really skews all his career numbers. Outside of 2008, Gorzo has been pretty good.
I like the return.
Morris could be a solid releiver, and Burgess looks like he could have some nice pop. Hopefully Burgess can turn into Tyler Colvin with the ability to draw walks.
FWIW Al did use a TJ friendly photo
with Hill right there for him
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Burgess and Morris....
Nicely done Jim Hendry. I almost regret hating you so much for so long for casual reasons.
Yep, for a guy we got for peanuts
Got Gorz & Grabow for Josh Harrison (minors), Jose Ascanio and Kevin Hart.
"Go Cubs!"
I like the trade despite not having a Starting LH in the rotation.
What we got from Gorz was the maximum he could offer when he pitched. The kids they got in return have some upside, perhaps a different team can help them. Development is possible. Good trade for Jimbo.
"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 18, 2011 1:27 AM CST reply actions
This Trade
Looking at this trade as a payroll dump. Gorzelanny was expendable because of the number of starting pitchers in the system who they probably feel have more upside than Gorzelanny does.
I hope the pitchers, or the whole team for that matter, can stay healthy. The bullpen for one should be better if those penciled in are available to pitch.
Will this be the last move before spring training? I think it will be except for maybe non-guaranteed arrangements. Unless there are some spring training surprises, they look to have a thin bench in 2011.
Don't see why people are surprised at this trade
A couple of you wrote here that once Garz was signed, a pitcher would be moved for purposes of doing a little farm system restocking and at least one person said it would be Gorz. I would have preferred Zambrano. I thought Gorz was a pretty dang consistent lefty and I don’t think we over paid to get him. BUT…ho hum. Surely to goodness someone in scouting knows what they’re doing. Right?
"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know. " Abraham Lincoln
It was his density

I thought pretty much the same thing about this, cubfever7. It was inevitable that someone on the staff was going to be moved when Garza got signed. I liked Gorzellany, though the was a sturdy and reliable pitcher and he’s going to get a lot more playing time now. Will it give the Nats 22 more wins a year? Doubt it, but it can’t hurt them. The depth of the bullpen was too tempting to not use.
But it might it be the Cubs’ front office’s density. The spring will tell. Those prospects don’t sound too shabby.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Even though it was pretty obvoius he was going to be traded,
I don’t really like the deal. I don’t treally like most of the oh so numerous options we have for the rotation. Had the Cubs not promoted the whole Iowa roster to the Majors, most of the names talked in that context would have never been heard at MLB level, and rightfully so.
Looking from what we know today, Gorzo would probably have been a solid #5.
Our alternatives are Coleman, Cashner and Silva. I hope some of them turns out to be an ok #5, but it might just as well turn out they’re not. Throwing Russell (he’s a lefty!) and Shark (he’s expensive!) into the equation lets me fear we’ll have a rotation in mix&match mode, like our bullpen was last year.
And I think the chaos that causes has the potential to derail the whole team.
Not that I expect them to be on track for winning the division or something, but I think what we need for 2011 is a well-rehearsed, confident team with solid fundamentals.
Turning the #5 spot in a high speed rotation of its own doesn’t help that goal too much, even when there’s no real indication any of our options is likely to be better than Gorzo.
by DamageControlFreak on Jan 19, 2011 3:47 AM CST reply actions
I don't like the move
So we traded him to save $2.1 million dollars? I would have paid all of Silva’s salary (except for $2.1 million) to get some team to take him off our hands, in order to keep Gorz rather than him. And I wouldn’t have asked for anything in return except for maybe some pine tar or chalk, or maybe some baseball rubbing mud.
Seriously, why trade Gorz instead of Silva? Wouldn’t any number of teams have taken him on for $2.1 million dollars? I’d guess the Yankees would have taken a chance on Silva at that price, that’s a rounding error for them. Even the Nats perhaps. Texas? Maybe Dayton Moore could have been convinced to spend a little of the newfound “Meche” money on Silva since he’s only signed for one more year and wouldn’t block any of his prospects. Something could have and should have been done to keep Gorz instead of Silva, I just don’t understand the logic of moving the younger, potentially better and cheaper pitcher for next to nothing prospect wise. If you’re getting nothing back anyway deal your trash instead of something potentially useful.
Just my $.02
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey
My guess
Silva doesn’t have much value if any. It could also be that they think they’re selling high on Gorz.
Exactly.
There were probably no takers on Silva. Cubs got a decent/intriguing hitting prospect for Gorzelanny and a couple more arms.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
i liked
gorz.a shame we had to trade him. unfortunately because of silvas salary we were pretty much stuck with him.

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