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Cubs Trade Tom Gorzelanny To Nationals

As first posted in this FanShot and reported by Bruce Levine at ESPNChicago.com, lefthander Tom Gorzelanny has been traded by the Cubs to the Nationals for three prospects, which will include "two pitchers and an outfielder", according to Levine.

Well, at least Gorzo got to enjoy a weekend at the Cubs Convention before he was sent away.

This leaves the Cubs with no lefthanders in the rotation, although manager Mike Quade says he may try James Russell there. That, in my opinion (and I agree with Josh who said the same thing in the FanShot), would be a mistake. Russell did start in the minors, but he wasn't very good at it. He's better off as a LOOGY. In fact, if the Cubs do have an all-righty rotation, having three LHP (Sean Marshall, John Grabow and Russell) in the bullpen could be an advantage, forcing opposing managers to flip lineups in the late innings.

Gorzo did a good job; he wasn't spectacular, but did what he was asked, including going to the bullpen last year. I think I'll remember him most for the shots he took off his body -- twice -- last year when line drives came right back at him.

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Why do I have a feeling these minor leaguers are going to be non-prospects

It’s not usually a good sign when the minor leaguers aren’t named.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 1:58 PM CST reply actions  

Can't be named until Gorz passes his physical.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Huh

Had Garza passed the physical before Archer and Lee were named?

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't specifically remember.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I am going to guess no

Considering that they were announced immediately. There are plenty of times the prospects are announced before the trade is finalized.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:18 PM CST up reply actions  

The pitcher--can't even remember the kid's name now--

wasn’t annoucned for a couple days.

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Jan 17, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

zach rosscup? something like that i think

Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.

by mikegncb34 on Jan 17, 2011 7:33 PM CST up reply actions  

iirc

Archer and Lee were ‘accepted’ as two in the trade immediately. The two pieces to the Cubs were announced later, with the pitcher being about the time the physicals were passed.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Wait, so the insiginificant pieces were the ones not announced

Thus consistent with my original statement.

Why do I have a feeling these minor leaguers are going to be non-prospects It’s not usually a good sign when the minor leaguers aren’t named.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

You may be right.

But I don’t think “not naming” is a “sign” of anything — other than that maybe the Nationals do business differently than the Rays.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

And everyone else in MLB

It’s not a good sign. Let’s just leave it at that.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

because you are a Cubs' fan

and you assume the worst?

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Jan 18, 2011 8:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Bye Gorzo - All the best to you.

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Jan 17, 2011 1:59 PM CST reply actions  

Now who's gonna get hit by all those hot shots back to the mound?

That was Gorzo’s main role – being the target for line drives.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Jan 17, 2011 2:01 PM CST reply actions  

If Aram has a 2+ moonth slump like last year...

I have a suggestion… same with the “streaky” Alfonso…

I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".

by jeffstorm2 on Jan 17, 2011 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Whoopsie! "mOnth" :]

I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".

by jeffstorm2 on Jan 17, 2011 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I hate the fact that we couldn't find a place for Gorzo

I thought he was a solid southpaw, and did his part in the underrated ‘10 pitching staff. Nationals got a good pitcher, and I really don’t know who the prospects are.

by braziliancubsfan on Jan 17, 2011 2:01 PM CST reply actions  

in a way, me too BCF

I been seeing you round the “other boards” ( using boards lightly)!

I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".

by jeffstorm2 on Jan 17, 2011 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Da Gorz was a magnet for comebackers, that's for sure.

And I’d agree that he did a solid job in his time with the Cubs. Best wishes to him in Washington.

Don’t get your hopes to high on the prospects coming back. This was just tweeted by Nats beat writer William Ladson:

I have been told the #Nats are not giving up signifcant Minor Leaguers.

I’ll take a Demp-Z-Garza-Wells-Cashner rotation, thanks much.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 17, 2011 2:02 PM CST reply actions  

Agreed

He seemed like a good guy. Nothing but the best to him, but it seems like a good move.

Chicago fan stuck in Florida.
RIP Ron Santo

by alkappy on Jan 17, 2011 2:02 PM CST reply actions  

Why?
Nothing but the best to him, but it seems like a good move.

Why does this seem like a good move?

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Because the Cubs did it.

If the Cubs had done the precise opposite, that would also have been a good move, by virtue of the Cubs doing it.

In this case, we know that Gorzelanny has been traded for 2 or 3 human beings. We also know that the Nats will be taking on some or all of Gorzo’s salary, or none. Or, we’re sending money with him. We just don’t have the facts. Regardless, it is obviously a good move, because the Cubs did it.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 2:52 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

As opposed to the reflexive opposite, seemingly stated so many times here..

…. “everything the Cubs do is wrong.”

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:56 PM CST up reply actions  

True.

But that was then, this is now. I choose to not look back.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Those who forget history...

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 3:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Have really bad memories and usally fail the class.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:17 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

or have alzheimer

and every day they meet new people

I agree with Al, about looking forward, but there is no denying what has happened

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka

by Cubbie-Tim on Jan 17, 2011 7:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Still think Jim Hendry is a good GM

"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer

by BoVandy on Jan 18, 2011 6:16 PM CST up reply actions  

usually text their BFF sitting next to them for 3 hours in Western Civ 101

Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..

coda

ELO, 1975

by cubnational on Jan 18, 2011 7:09 PM CST up reply actions  

My favorite is always:

“The Cubs are X games back with X games to play. The 2002 Astros went 53-4 to make the playoffs. It might be unlikely, but it’s still possible”

by Schwa on Jan 17, 2011 3:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Once in a hundred years means it's possible.

Cue Dumb and Dumber reference 1-2-3….

"The problem isn't that people aren't smart, it's that some folks have an attention span of about seven days. Look at the broader picture and you'll always be smarter." - Bill Barnwell of F.O. on why the media picks playoff winners on Monday.

by propheteer on Jan 18, 2011 6:13 PM CST up reply actions  

that is such utter nonsense.

So we can’t base any of our opinions on what has happened in the last few years?

Really?

"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer

by BoVandy on Jan 18, 2011 6:16 PM CST up reply actions  

No one's saying that.

But some here seem to think that because mistakes were made in the past, mistakes will thus ALWAYS be made.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 18, 2011 9:44 PM CST up reply actions  

not at all

people are objectively evaluating moves based on the history of the PLAYER being acquired, NOT the history of the TEAM acquiring.

People evaluated Garza based on GARZA’S history, not the CUBS. Same with Pena, same with Kerry Wood….

The Cubs as an organization just happen to make more questionable moves than most.

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 19, 2011 8:36 AM CST up reply actions  

The Cubs as an organization just happen to make more questionable moves than most.

I think this is the view of some here because we, as Cubs fans, analyze the Cubs more closely than other teams. I suspect if you were a fan of another team, you might say the same thing.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 19, 2011 8:58 AM CST up reply actions  

not at all

there’s been a number of studies examining the efficiency of general management decisions based on payroll vs. performance or FA dollars paid vs. performance, etc (some are better than others, the most recent one posted here examining +/- of WAR by players let go was extremely poor) and all the examples point to the Cubs near the bottom.

This team hasn’t been to a world series in over 50 years. The team hasn’t won a world series in over 100. The club has just SIX playoff appearances in the last 65 years

You’ll point out that 4 of those have come in the last 12 years, which is fair, but also corresponds to a period in which the Cubs began raising payroll significantly.

Since the Cubs began spending with the big boys in 2004, they’ve averaged just 82 wins per season (mediocrity).

On most metrics you could find to assess the organization its been in the lower half of baseball.

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 19, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Nevertheless...

… the first decade of this century has been the best decade of Cubs baseball since the 1930’s.

Granted, that’s not saying much. But I do think the team is headed in the right direction.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 19, 2011 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh please.......

Just because we don’t win a world series doesn’t mean that there haven’t been alot of things that have gone right.

by jballgame on Jan 17, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions  

You're sarcastic?

I had no idea at all.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

State high point count: 3/50

Beat the Chicago Bears, THEN I'll talk about the Packers being in the Super Bowl. But not until that happens.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 17, 2011 8:59 PM CST up reply actions  

If you measure "right"

Solely by world series wins, you’re doomed to be disappointed quite a bit in life. Look, I’m not saying I’m pleased with where the Cubs are, but the doomsday, sky-is-falling, overdramatization of the negative is a bit ridiculous.

by jballgame on Jan 17, 2011 5:29 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

"We have absolutely no facts regarding this trade. Still, it seems like a good move."

Come on, Al. The post I responded to was exactly the type of “if the Cubs did it, it’s correct” statement I’ve been referring to. How can we even say “it seems like a good move” with zero facts to consider? We didn’t know anything about the financial terms, prospects involved – NOTHING. And still it “seems good”.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 3:51 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Point taken.

Right now, it seems neither good nor bad to me.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Paul Sullivan took an indirect shot at Al...

Saying that the only blog that made it into the media session on Friday was the one that finds no fault with anything the Cubs do. :)

by rgonzale on Jan 17, 2011 5:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Ha, that is interesting

Most of the Cubs blogosphere takes a lot of shots at the Ricketts. Al is definitely the most glass-half-full of the group.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 5:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Let me say, it's my assumption he's talking about BCB...

link…

Media social, 3 p.m.: The Cubs players and executives meet with the Chicago media in a social setting for interviews and small talk. Fans and bloggers are not allowed, with the exception of the blog that lauds every move of the Ricketts and the Cubs’ higher-ups.

by rgonzale on Jan 17, 2011 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Ouch.

Well, thanks for the link. I’m guessing Sully doesn’t like the fact that BCB so regularly trashes him — i.e. how his Twitter page showed nothing about the Garza trade the day it was coming down.

I’m not saying Al made those comments, for the record.

by elgato on Jan 17, 2011 5:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm guessing it has more to do with Sully being 100% accurate in this regard

Al has turned into an EVEN BIGGER cheerleader this offseason, with very little reason.

"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer

by BoVandy on Jan 18, 2011 6:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Paul Sullivan is an idiot.

And a crappy writer. So there’s that.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 6:00 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Don't forget Paul Sullivan is featured in the first installment of Between the Ivy!

Er, ThePenismightier, we mean. Revisit exciting memories from the 2009 season here!

Look for the second edition of BtI before the 2011 season starts!

Chester Cheetah is a fictional anthropomorphic cheetah and the official mascot for Cheetos brand snacks and Chester's Puffcorn. He is distinctive for his lanky body, large sunglasses, tennis shoes, and smooth persona.

by dtpollitt n SWL on Jan 17, 2011 6:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow

I think that might set the record for longest post ever on BCB. Ivy Walls is jealous.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 6:15 PM CST up reply actions  

HAHAHA

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Jan 17, 2011 6:24 PM CST up reply actions  

That's NOT true...

Al has criticized the Cubs for lots of things, just not anything related to the direct performance of the baseball team.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 5:28 PM CST up reply actions  

You know, I missed that Sullivan post.

Funny thing, too. Other blogs trash Sullivan. Some posters here do. I don’t, but he takes a swipe at me anyway.

And yes, I criticize on-field stuff as well as other things. I just don’t reflexively bash everything the team does.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 18, 2011 8:30 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't get the animosity toward the beat writers.

Sullivan isn’t the best reporter in town, but he’s not that bad. Gordo gets bashed a lot, but he occasionally gets a big scoop — e.g. Garza. FWIW, I do understand the animosity toward the columnists, many of whom are pretty bad.

As for you Al, you are certainly more charitable to the front office than most around here, including yours truly. Part of it, I think, is that you’ve decided (consciously or not) that you’re going to be more restrained in your criticism of Cubs personnel if you think we’re stuck with that person or persons for a while.

Just an observation. Feel free to refute.

by elgato on Jan 18, 2011 8:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Honestly, I don't even notice the beat writers as "personalities".

As swipes go, Sully’s definitely leaves a bit of a mark. But I have to agree with elgato, and I’ll go a bit further:

Al does start from the point of reflexively agreeing with everything that the Ricketts and the front-office higher-ups do.

Sometimes, he eventually comes around to disagreement. But not lately. Even when he had disagreed with a proposed move the day prior – when it becomes an actual move, he’ll change his opinion and vociferously defend the front office’s decision.

Take, for instance, the Ricketts’ request for $200M in taxpayer funds. Al came out with a front-page story on Day 1 strongly in favor of the deal, calling it a “win-win”, despite the fact that (and I’m being charitable here) he didn’t have a full grasp of all the facts and details of the deal. (Frankly, I’m not sure anyone did at that point.) Still, that first story (11/16/10) contained statements from Al like:

“It’s not quite as simple as some make it out to be when they say, “This is public money for a private project”, and

“The proposal made today by Tom Ricketts … I believe addresses this without taking money away from anything else”, and

“Cubs president Crane Kenney told me that tax revenues that would be generated by the economic activity that is created by these projects is projected to be many times over the amount of amusement tax that would be used to retire the bonds.”

Even several weeks later, when the plan had been soundly rejected, Al still disputed that the $200M in public money was a “gift” to the Cubs, claiming that “it was going to be paid back somehow.”

Now, I know that Al is not a journalist per se. But Al does have a very large readership, and it seems fairly obvious that a sizeable chunk of the BCB community tends to rely on him as an opinion leader.

I think that in many cases, BCB would be well served to hold back on the “We agree with Hendry/Ricketts!” pronouncements until BCB understands all of the angles in play – and even when making such pronouncements, BCB would be well served to strike a little more of the analytical tone Josh77 did in his “What We Gave Up” post on 1/7, as opposed to the “Why the Matt Garza Trade Is A Good Deal For the Cubs, Part One/Deux” posts that flanked it. (But that’s just my personal preference – I am sure that others love cheerleading.)

More to my point – There’s no question that, in recent years, Al has been granted more access to the Cubs than any other independent blogger. There’s also very little question that he’s advocated on behalf of the current front office more than any other (prominent) independent blogger.

It goes without saying that there’s no quid pro quo in play – that would be silly. But as an “ad hoc” thing, at some point, it starts to look like relaying the party line in exchange for enjoying this continued access.

And I can’t say that I wouldn’t be swayed in the same way. I probably would. That kind of access would be a blast.

But you have to be willing to absorb the slings and arrows from the Sullivans out there if you’re going to take that path.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 18, 2011 9:22 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

FTR ...

I think it’s WAY over the top to say Al agrees with everything the Cubs do and say. And I said that yesterday.

I do think he’s more charitable than I am and many posters are.

by elgato on Jan 18, 2011 9:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Certainly.

And I’m sure that there have been some – but I just can’t think of many disagreements – even mild ones – with Hendry or Ricketts in the last year. (Lou, sure.) Really, the Bradley signing was the last time I can remember any disagreement at all.

There was the tax levy thing, and Z to the bullpen, and dealing Archer, and spending so little on the draft, and Lilly-for-DeWitt with Kelly Johnson on the table, and Hendry’s initial reaction to the Z blowup. Even the Grabow deal got defended.

I guess what I’m getting at is, that kind of access legitimizes the blog and builds the brand, but it is going to come with some mild drawbacks, like having a Trib beat reporter more or less call you a sycophant, fair or not.

(And on second thought, I don’t remember Al being on board with the 2011 ticket pricing.)

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 18, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I really think ...

it has less to do with access and more to do with Al’s personality. Last year, he and I argued like crazy about giving Jeff Baker some outfield time in ST. I thought it would add to the Cubs’ versatility. Al kept saying there was no point (considering how many outfield options the Cubs had).

I think Al figures that we’re stuck with Hendry and the Ricketts, so we might as well make the best of it. I’ve also think that he’s a little more boisterous in defense of the management given how things have turned more negative in the past couple years.

by elgato on Jan 18, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions  

elgato is correct.

Since he and I have met in person and discussed some of these things, I think he’s got a better understanding of where I’m coming from.

Let’s just say I hope my optimism is justified.

D98 is correct on the ticket pricing — I did criticize that, and still do. I think they’ve made a serious mistake in overpricing many games, and they will find out how bad a mistake this is on Feb. 25.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 18, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

You're in the ...

why-complain-if-it-won’t-help camp. There are quite a few BCBers who feel this way, and even some who think that we need to be positive as a way to help the team.

I understand the first camp (though I’m not part of it). I really don’t get the second camp. I don’t think any talking we do as fans affects the Cubs’ results. Someone will undoubtedly bring up the Wrigley atmosphere during the Dodgers series, but I think that’s a lot of bunk.

by elgato on Jan 18, 2011 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Points taken.

When the Cubs do something I disagree with, I’ll say so. No one has ever told me what to write, if that’s what you’re implying.

I do have a problem with what appears to be the reflexive statements by many here, no matter what the Cubs do, that they’re wrong.

Good example, in fact, is this thread. Is this trade a good deal? It may not be, as not having a LHP in the rotation isn’t necessarily a good thing. But it may work out. I don’t have any problem discussing both sides of this issue.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 18, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm certainly not implying that - I said just the opposite.

I said it would be “silly” to imply a quid pro quo. I just think that it’s natural for anyone to give the benefit of the doubt to Cubs brass when you’re speaking with them personally.

As for this Gorzo deal, it’s probably good in both the short and long-term. I don’t know that Gorzelanny is going to be a major contributor for a team with WS aspirations, and we definitely have an abundance of back-of-the-rotation arms.

But I don’t really see anyone blasting this deal in and of itself. We got a power bat for a system that sorely lacks power, and a relief arm that could be an MLB contributor someday. However, we have to consider the context.

I noted that it’s kind of ridiculous to say, as Quade did, that today’s deal means that Russell will be looked at as a starter. If having a left-handed starter is so important, then the team should have found a different way to save $1.6M.

I’ve also noted that this deal has to be considered in light of the Garza trade, as the primary impetus was probably salary relief. And in that case, it all really hinges on whether Garza is going to become the anchor starter the Cubs think he’s going to be. I sure as heck hope he is.

Ultimately, as I wrote somewhere else in this thread, it’s probably time for me (and everyone else) to turn our attention to Arizona and see how this team is going to shape up. I’m a whole lot less optimistic than I was 12 months ago, but hope springs eternal this time of year.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 18, 2011 10:35 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree with you regarding the LH starter and Russell.

Russell seems well suited to being a LOOGY. He wasn’t a good starter in the minor leagues — why would now be any different?

I share your hope re: Garza. Will he ever be a Halladay or a Cliff Lee or a Sabathia? No. But with Dempster, Z and Garza at the top of the rotation, I believe the Cubs can match up with anyone in their division.

Glad you said “hope springs eternal”. It does, doesn’t it? Can’t wait for pitchers and catchers to report… it’s less than four weeks away.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 18, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

IMHO, Sullivan is pretty bad.

When he sticks to passing along factual information about the team, he’s adequate. But he’s taken so many unwarranted, unfunny shots at various Cubs players that his objectivity is dubious at best. And his shot at Al above (and ridiculous blocking of many of his Twitter followers) reveals a very condescending, out-of-touch attitude regarding bloggers and the Internet at large.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 18, 2011 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Sully doesn't shy away from putting more opinion in his stories

than I’m comfortable with.

If he writes a column, then he’s free to opinionize (is that even a word?) any way he wants. It really doesn’t have a place in ame stories and non-columns.

Bruce Miles does a much better job of presenting viewpoints that are backed by sources. IMHO, he’s the best guy on the beat.

Gordon spends too much time writing about stuff like curses. I think he’s closer to Sully then he is to Miles.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 18, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed.

Miles is still the best. Gordo doesn’t bother me as much as Sully, though he has his unflattering moments as well.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 18, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Miles is the best beat reporter by a mile

I think Gordon is petty too. The self-congratulations over him being the first to break the Garza story were unbecoming as well.

by JSB on Jan 18, 2011 6:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Levine works hard, but it seems

his info often isn’t accurate. Hasn’t that been a problem with him, eg?

by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 19, 2011 1:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I appreciate Levine's work ethic.

He passes along a lot of interesting info. I’m not crazy about his analyses, though. He seems to say a lot of off-the-wall stuff.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 19, 2011 9:05 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

In addition to questionable writing skills, apparently Sully doesn't know how to read either.

There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?

by Zeke on Jan 18, 2011 5:15 AM CST up reply actions  

The Cubs won't be sending money

If the prospects weren’t named at the front end, this is a “salary dump.” Hendry can’t dump the big ones, so he has to settle for dumping a little salary.

by ClarkFan on Jan 17, 2011 8:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Primarily

because he probably doesn’t have a spot in the rotation, it clears up a little payroll, we get some young talent in return, and Gorz gets to go to a place where he can help a team more.

Chicago fan stuck in Florida.
RIP Ron Santo

by alkappy on Jan 17, 2011 7:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Seems like a Hendry move

Get a nice guy to a place where he will be able to have a role. And don’t worry so much about what you’ll get back.

If we’re getting non-prospects, couldn’t we have done so in March.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Or not at all

Gorz is a good young lefty. No reason to give him away.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

I’d rather have had Hendry give them Silva for nothing instead of trading a valuable lefty for a few farmhands.

"Whenever one finds himself in the majority, it is time to step back and reflect," Mark Twain.

by WindisBlowingOut! on Jan 17, 2011 5:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Says someone I'm 99% confident...

Was pissed the Cubs didn’t sign Blanco as a back up for “only” 1 million a couple years back.

by bdlugz on Jan 18, 2011 11:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Best of luck to you Gorz

Please keep James Russell out of the rotation. K thanks

Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.

by mikegncb34 on Jan 17, 2011 2:03 PM CST reply actions  

The entire "maybe Russell in the rotation" comment confuses and disappoints me.

The only possible reading is:

“We had to trade Gorzo b/c we are completely and totally out of money. We are now, however, a little troubled about our total lack of LH starting pitching. As such, we are at least considering using a VASTLY, VASTLY INFERIOR option to Gorzellany as a starting pitcher.”

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 2:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Only if you think Russell is the replacement.

It could be Andrew Cashner. What would you say then?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

That we shouldn't have trade for Garza

If we already had too many starting pitchers why did we trade for one that wasn’t much better than what we had.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:02 PM CST up reply actions  

See, there's where you & I differ.

I think Garza is better than that. We’ll see.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Honest question - have you ever watched him pitch?

More than twice?

You see a lot of Cubs baseball… so much, in fact, that I don’t know when you’d be able to watch Garza.

And if you’re basing this opinion on stats, I’m more inclined to discount it. His stats are not great.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 3:52 PM CST up reply actions  

I've seen him pitch, yes.

Not in person, but on TV. More than once.

I’ve seen it said here (not sure if you said it) that Garza isn’t much better than Gorzelanny. I differ with that opinion.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I think Garza is probably better than Gorzelanny.

I don’t think he’s better than Lilly. He’s obviously younger.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd rather have Garza's present and future...

…than Lilly’s present and future.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 17, 2011 7:50 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

That's not really the choice, is it.

It’s Garza’s next three years vs. Lilly and Gorzo’s, and Archer’s next 6.

At this point, enough players have been moved that it’s probably just time to start looking forward to spring. Today’s move is better than I’d expected, given the circumstances and recent performance in acquiring prospects under duress.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 9:12 PM CST up reply actions  

But not more than twice?

What do you think Garza is going to do this year? What do you think Gorz is going to do?

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

This is kind of the crux of the situation.

I think that Garza is likely to outperform Gorzelanny over the next 3 years. I would not bet $100 on the proposition. I feel that the Cubs just bet several tens of millions of dollars on the proposition, unnecessarily.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 4:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Me too

Honestly, my expectations are that Garza will finish the season with 210 IP and about a 3.80 ERA, while Gorz finished the season with 180 IP and a 4.15 ERA.

Sure, Garza is better. But not to the degree that will make a huge difference between this team making or missing the playoffs.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 4:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I disagree.

I think Garza will have an ERA below 3.50 with the Cubs. That’s a significant difference.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 4:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Man... I'd take

any “action” on the over for that number.

An ERA under 3.5 is basically best case scenario.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

how can you even compare Garza and Gorz?

a 3.5 is less tthan a half a run a game improvement from what he was last year…pitching in the AL East with a DH. Getting to picth against the Pirates and Asrtro’s several times a year is going to give you half a run a game at least

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 5:47 PM CST up reply actions  

There's a lot more to the story than that

Garza is a fly-ball pitcher. Trop is a pitcher’s park, Rays OF defense is much better than the Cubs.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 6:00 PM CST up reply actions  

-.41 ERA Improvement

Thats the average from this study
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/fantasy/article/the-statistical-impact-of-switching-leagues-for-pitchers/

i think his avg ERA was 3.8 so around 3.4 ERA. If you expect an increase in defense and park factors he might see an increase. But i think our outfield defense isnt that bad. Soriano wasnt that bad, while bryd and fukudome are pretty good.

I think he has a good chance to be around 3.5 for his age.

by Mitchener on Jan 17, 2011 6:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think his ERA will go up.

IMO, It will stay essentially the same. I’m with JSB… ~3.80.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 6:26 PM CST up reply actions  

So if that .41 is the average...

…and if you think Garza is an above average pitcher, then it stands to reason his delta would be above average too, would it not? 3.50 is very doable.

Then again, 4.00 wouldn’t surprise me either. Getting thumped by StL (Pujols, Holliday, Rasmus, Theriot, Berkman), Mil (Fielder, Braun, Hart, McGehee, Weeks), and Cin (Votto, Bruce, Phillips) on a regular basis would be enough to shell-shock anyone.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 17, 2011 8:06 PM CST up reply actions  

He's a solid pitcher.

But his peripherals don’t really translate to making that .41 jump just cause he switched leagues. If he brings down his peripherals, he is capable of making the jump. I just don’t see it, based on what I’ve seen of him.

BTW… I definitely laughed at you including Theriot on the thumper list.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 8:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I was wondering if anyone would notice that... ;-)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 17, 2011 8:55 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with you on that, but..

Garza pitched very well in non pitchers parks as well, like Yankee stadium, Fenway park, and Camden Yards. Not to mention the two weakest teams in the AL east (the O’s and Blue Jays) are probally better offensively than the two best in the NL central.

I just really think going from a 3.91 ERA to a 3.50 is very possible

0

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 6:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I do too

I don’t think a 3.50 ERA is out of the question. I guessed he would have a 3.80. Not a huge difference there. But a 3.50 ERA in the NL Central would not have him anywhere close to the top 10 pitchers in the game.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 6:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think he's near the top 20...

I think he is a solid #2 starter, who has pitched some really great games in the playoffs.

I forgot he threw a no hitter last year

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 6:18 PM CST up reply actions  

One good example for league switches is....

Bronson Arroyo. He went from the Red Sox to the Reds and had one of his best years. He increase his War from 2.7 to 5.8. He also lowered his ERA from 4.51 to 3.29.

Although he want from a hitters park to another hitters park, but he had similar stats. Although i think Garza has better stuff and is younger.

by Mitchener on Jan 17, 2011 6:20 PM CST up reply actions  

This kind of reasoning happens a lot on BCB.

If the Cubs are 15 games out in mid-July, meteoric comebacks of other teams in previous years are cited as reasons why the Cubs can come back too.

The problem is that examples like that are usually exceptions, not rules.

by elgato on Jan 17, 2011 6:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep. And Mitch does that... a lot.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 6:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Arroyo is on the high end of improvement

But i dont see a list of players who failed moving to the NL. -.41 ERA is the avg.

And when think of AL East to NL Central switches

I can only think of the successes like Lilly, Carp, and Arroyo.

As a Pessimist maybe you can give a list of failures.

by Mitchener on Jan 17, 2011 6:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Ha.

Man, am I tired of the optimists-versus-pessimists debate around here.

by elgato on Jan 17, 2011 6:50 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Which is why we look at other factors...

like defense and park.

And the fact that Garza is an extreme flyball pitcher.

And that his peripherals suggest he’s not getting better.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 6:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Facts!

Ahhhh my eyes!

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 6:59 PM CST up reply actions  

when Ted Lilly was signed so many said he was a bad sign, and would fail

because he was a flyball pitcher, I think he improved a little better than the .41 avg.

just one example

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 7:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, that's the point of an average.

Some will be better. Some will be worse.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Sometimes

you give off the impression that you think it’s impossible he’ll improve, because you think the defense and park change outweigh the league change. Perhaps that’s not what you mean to convey, but to me at least you come across as though you’ve already seen next year’s stats and therefore you couldn’t be wrong about the conclusions you’ve made about him.

In reality, he could be better, worse or the same. We can use stats to make inferences and draw conclusions, but their predictive value is far from absolute.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jan 17, 2011 9:12 PM CST up reply actions  

If that is the impression I give, then I apologize.

It surely isn’t what I mean.

If anything, it is a defense mechanism/reaction to all those who are doing the precise opposite—-stating assurances that Garza’s numbers will improve just because he is leaving the all-mighty AL East.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 9:40 PM CST up reply actions  

None off the top of my head, no.

But that is in part because 200 IP in their prime rarely move at all, not to mention move as specifically as one particular division to another particular division.

And, for the record, none of Lilly, Carpenter, or Arroyo fit the qualifications of consecutive seasons of 200+ IP and in their prime.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:16 PM CST up reply actions  

well then...

they all were a lot better makeing the switch..

just a few other names off the top of my head

CC Sabathia, Cliff Lee,

How about a couple of guys who we’re great in the NL and not so much in the AL

Javier Vasquez, A.J. Burnett

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 7:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I could list many more....

if he isn’t better it will be abnormal

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 7:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Barry Zito and Mark Mulder?

Tim Hudson? Edwin Jackson sucked with ARI. Dan Haren was better with OAK than he was with ARI. Johan Santana basically held serve, although the peripherals were often better in MIN.

How many players pitch 200+ innings for 2 straight years and then get traded?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 7:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Zito is abnormal,

he lost alot of MPH on he fastball, and Mulder was pretty even until he got hurt

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 7:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Edwin Jackson has always been inconsistant

Tim Hudson was an injury, and I’ll have to look up Haren, but I thought he has benn good most everywhere until he was traded to the Angels this year

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 7:29 PM CST up reply actions  

So if the players don't support

your view, then they are just “abnormal”?

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:31 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

isn't that the word that is used when something isn't close to the norm?

there are always exceptions, good and bad, but for this discussion there are more examples of good, does that mean I am saying that Garza will be good…no. For all I now He may need Tommy John Surgery because he’s thrown over 400 innings in 2 years

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 7:36 PM CST up reply actions  

No, there aren't more examples of good.

There will be a largely equitable number of examples of “good” and “bad”. That’s how you arrive at an average.

The good examples come to mind easier because they are better, and more prominent, players.

A pitcher who goes from the AL East to the NL, stinks, and never makes the majors again contributes to the average.

Look… we ALL hope Garza is one of the “good examples”. In baseball terms, there’s not much that would make me happier than for him to develop into a legit ace. I’m just not holding my breath.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:41 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

well the Avg. per Baseball Ref. is a .41 improvement witch is all I was talking about in the first place

which considering last year his ERA was 3.91…that would put him at 3.50 so saays the laws of avg.

just sayin…lol!

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 7:47 PM CST up reply actions  

This division thing has been hashed over endlessly.

The difference is overrated by … a lot. Look up some of the “old” threads when Garza was acquired for more elaborate discussion.

Runs scored last year:
Yankees 859 (1st in baseball)
Red Sox 818
Cincy 790
Toronto 755
Milwaukee 750
STL 736
Baltimore 613
Houston 611
Pittsburgh 587

More or less…
BOS = CIN
TOR = MIL
BAL = HOU

That leaves New York, St. Louis and Pittsburgh. So that means the 3-4 starts Garza would make against the Yanks are instead against the Cards and/or Pirates.

I’d say that 3-4 start difference will be more than wiped out by park and defensive differences.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 6:33 PM CST up reply actions  

you really can't compare this either because the level of Pitching faced

looking at the history of interleague play the AL has dominated the NL, I do think the power is begining to shift a little the NL’s way though

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 6:48 PM CST up reply actions  

What?

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 6:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Then Hr Factor Cancels out for Garza

AL East Top 3: 669 homeruns
Nl Central Top 3: 520 home runs

So -149 homeruns means Garza’s home run increase to Wrigley will be canceled out by the league change

by Mitchener on Jan 17, 2011 6:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Why are you just arbitrarily parsing statistics?

Did Garza only pitch against “top 3” AL East teams? Will he pitch against only “top 3” NL Central teams?

You’re more than welcome to keep being optimistic and hoping that Matt Garza will all of a sudden “find it”. I sure as heck hope he does… I would be ECSTATIC to be wrong.

But there’s really nothing in the numbers to suggest it will happen.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 6:56 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Fortunately baseball

is actually played out on the field though. Maturity, talent, coaching, confidence, luck and other factors all go into it. The numbers may not suggest he is likely to get any better but they also don’t guarantee he won’t. And being optimistic is better than the opposite imo.

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by Section 312 on Jan 17, 2011 7:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure.

I’m not guaranteeing anything. I find it very unlikely Garza will have a sub 3.5 ERA.

If he does, that would be fantastic.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:08 PM CST up reply actions  

define find it....?

I don’t think he is going to ever considered an “ace” type of pitcher, but I don’t see how you can look at this guy the last few years and say he needs to find it. If he just stays the same pitcher he will be better in the NL central

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 7:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Hendry said he's an ace. That's the price he paid.

(Paraphrasing) Hendry said Garza was one of the ten best pitchers in baseball, which is why he worked on the deal for so long.

The problem, of course, is that Garza is nowhere close to being an ace.

He will help the Cubs. He makes them slightly better. But Hendry paid the price of a guy who would make the Cubs a LOT better.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:11 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I didn't know Hendry said that

I think he gave up unproven for proven, Garza to me is a 2/3 type pitcher, at a reasonable cost for 3 years

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 7:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Hendry did not.......

Pay the price of an “ace”……give it a rest. He didn’t pay the price of a Halladay, Cliff Lee, etc.

by jballgame on Jan 17, 2011 7:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Hendry traded

1/3 of our top dozen prospects.

That’s the price of an ace.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Archer.....

as the top prospect is hardly a Justin Smoak or Kyle Drabek, to name a few top prospects that were traded for aces.

by jballgame on Jan 17, 2011 7:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Fine. So we traded quantity instead.

So instead of trading an “elite” prospect that we didn’t have (I guess we can be “proud” of Hendry for not surrendering Brett Jackson), we traded our best SP, best IF, best C, and 2nd best OF.

Pardon me for not being thrilled at trading those guys away for a slight upgrade in SP, which our GM labels a top 10 pitcher.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Huh?

Archer is a top 50 prospect and Lee was top 100. That’s fairly well thought of.

And Lee is the only one who couldn’t contribute to the 2011 Cubs.

Chirinos could be a back-up catcher, Guyer a 4th or 5th OF and many/most thought Archer would be ready later this year.

Seeing as the Cubs have Koyie Hill on the roster and Perez might be the back-up RH OF, I’d say those two could’ve contributed.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Apples and oranges.

In 2011, no… Garza will be “more valuable”, though at ~$6M he’s not really “cheap”.

But #2-3 starters weren’t the problem… they already had/have #2 & 3 taken care of with Z and Dempster. The Cubs needs an ace.

And they just used a bunch of their trade chips, and ate up a fair chunk of their future salary space, to acquire Garza.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 8:07 PM CST up reply actions  

were their any #1's avalible?

i’m sure the cubs would have given the same package for Grinkee, but it wouldn’t have gotten the deal done

by wfree0104 on Jan 17, 2011 8:15 PM CST up reply actions  

No, it wouldn't.

But that’s not a reason to trade 1/3 of your top prospects for a #2/3 starter.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 8:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh wow.......
In 2011, no… Garza will be "more valuable", though at ~$6M he’s not really "cheap".

But #2-3 starters weren’t the problem… they already had/have #2 & 3 taken care of with Z and Dempster. The Cubs needs an ace.


So Garza is not cheap as a #2 starter, but Z and Demp are?

And Garza will not “eat up a fair chunk of their future salary space”-that honor belongs to Soriano, Z, Dempster, etc.

by jballgame on Jan 17, 2011 8:59 PM CST up reply actions  

"Cheap" is relative, I suppose.

Garza’s salary is likely near $10M in 2012 and over that in 2013. I don’t think of that as “cheap”, even if Z and Dempster make more.

Just like I don’t consider Rafael Soriano a “cheap” pitcher for the Yankees just because Mariano, CC, and AJ all make more than he will.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 9:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Quit misrepresenting

Archer COULD be ready IF he develops a 3rd pitch AND control. You seriously sway the information to support your view man.

by jballgame on Jan 17, 2011 8:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, until he was dealt....

Archer was being discussed by Hendry as a candidate for the rotation.

I take that to mean he wasn’t felt to be “far away”.

I’m well aware that Archer is far from a sure thing and have never pretended as such.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 9:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Doesn't matter.......

if they’re our “2nd best” etc………..the point is, they are not worth the price of an “ace” as you stated. I “pardon” the not being thrilled, but this overdramatization of the negative is a bit over board here.

by jballgame on Jan 17, 2011 8:41 PM CST up reply actions  

The problem is it DOES matter.

Relative value matters.

And I’m not being overly dramatic, at all.

The Cubs SP got a little better by acquiring Garza. That’s good.

But Garza isn’t an ace (as Hendry has stated, or at worst inferred with his “top 10” comment) and the Cubs overpaid.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 9:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Once again...

false.

Price of the ace this offseason was a starting CF, SS, and the top 2 pitching prospects of the team getting him.

Insisting something is true doesn’t make it true.

Hell Halladay cost Phillie one of the best pitching prospects in baseball period, PLUS two other top 8 Phillie prspects…Please stop perpetrating lies.

by SenorGato on Jan 17, 2011 8:10 PM CST up reply actions  

I imagine the irony is lost on you.
Insisting something is true doesn’t make it true.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 8:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Its not arbitrary

I was comparing Homeruns because one of the concerns was his home run totals increasing and lessing his value moving to the NL central.

I picked top 3 because top 4 would include Cubs which he wont face. But even if you did top 4 it still favors the East. He plays a good amount of games against his division (16). 6 against the red sox who crushed him for 8 homeruns.

Im just trying to give balance to the bad stats towards Garza.

by Mitchener on Jan 17, 2011 7:23 PM CST up reply actions  

It is arbitrary because

he’s going to have 32-34 starts. Focusing on how he did in ~9 starts against selected division foes just isn’t that predictive.

And even if you want to be fascinated with how he did against those teams, it doesn’t “balance” out his stats over the course of a year.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:36 PM CST up reply actions  

OK. And?

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:46 PM CST up reply actions  

OK 16 starts adding Orioles

Thats half his starts against better home runs clubs than the Reds, Cardinals, Brewers, and pirates

802 homeruns to 646.

Just pointing out that the 16 starts at “Home Run Friendly Wrigley” vs 16 starts against Home run Friendly Teams.

I dont think its silly to think his Home runs will stay the same or go down.

I point at home runs because it seems like a big factor to his ERA.

by Mitchener on Jan 17, 2011 8:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe they will cancel out.

I just doubt it. I think a lot of those FB that used to land in the gap in Carl Crawford’s glove are now landing in the basket.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 8:16 PM CST up reply actions  

This a thousand times.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

It does appear...

…the Cubs leadership strongly believes that Matt Garza is either already a top of the rotation pitcher or that he will become one in the very near future.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 17, 2011 3:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree, but I think it also makes some sense if Garza is a top 30 MLB pitcher

That would be a pretty big upgrade over what they had previously. But, i don’t think Garza is anywhere close to that.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Matt Garza is not a top 10 pitcher, and top 15 or even 20 is pushing it.

And you’re right, D98, recommended.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 5:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I think hes around top 30 pitcher

Garza is ranked 31st, Lilly 28th, and Greinke 19th according to espn. http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?page=60F6I100930

although it doesnt have greinke’s and Garza’s move to the NL

by Mitchener on Jan 17, 2011 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, that's fantasy, but still somewhat useful.

FanGraphs, however, is a bit more helpful:

MLB WAR pitching leaders 2008 – 2010, Garza (7.9) is most comparable with Paul Maholm (8.0 or Mike Pelfrey (7.5). That puts him at the #41 spot for pitcher WAR.

MLB FIP leaders 2008 – 2010, Garza (4.24) is most comparable with Aaron Cook (4.23) and Edwin Jackson (4.32). He’s in the #13 spot for pitcher FIP.

Neither make me excited.

Dan

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Yuck

I can’t imagine anyone would be excited if we traded for Paul Maholm.

It’s amazing what pitching in the mythical AL East and the playoffs can do for your reputation.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 5:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Playoff experience!

We need playoff experience!

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 5:21 PM CST up reply actions  

we should have swapped gorz for marquis

hendry, you fool!

He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA

by jesus christos on Jan 17, 2011 5:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Have to ask a Saber guy about FIP

Is Matt Cain overated because he posts simiiar FIP’s but sports a low ERA. So is FIP always accurate if a pitcher keeps outperforming it?

Also i know baseball reference uses another method for WAR ,but it has Garza as 9 WAR over that time period

by Mitchener on Jan 17, 2011 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm no sabermetrician but...

Cain’s career ERA is 3.45; his FIP, 3.84.

FIP takes into account only the things he can control—homers, walks, and strikeouts. The rest (grounders, flies, liners, errors, etc.) are included in ERA. FIP is helpful because (at least in my mind) I envision the pitcher against the hitter and nobody else. Every other outcome depends on a defensive teammate. Since Cain has been in the league (2005) the Giants have been a pretty good defensive team.

Differences in ERA/FIP are accounted for by stuff like BaBIP, pitching with/out runners on base, liners, luck, etc. If I had to make a somewhat-educated guess, Cain benefits from a good defensive team behind him.

Dan

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 6:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Not a Saber expert but what i read

Cain ranked high in LOB %. I think that being a good pitcher under pressure like him helped him. Lilly is another guy with a high LOB % and he performed above his FIP with out a good defense.

Matt garza has the 14th highest LOB % in 2008-2010. Batters have one of the lowest Batting averages against him w/risp. I think he continues to outperform his FIP.

by Mitchener on Jan 17, 2011 8:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly.

Everyone is in love with Garza’s “name brand” and “stuff”.

Can you even imagine if we traded “just” HJ Lee (not to mention the others) for Maholm?? BCB would’ve literally exploded.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 6:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Just as an FYI

Matt Garza isn’t actually Paul Maholm.

by SenorGato on Jan 17, 2011 10:48 PM CST up reply actions  

No, he's not.

But he’s much, much closer to being Paul Maholm than being a TOR.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 18, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions  

I'll disagree with that contention.

We know you don’t like this trade. However, I’d give it a year, at least, before you reach any conclusions on how it will help or hurt the team.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 18, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Fsuappollo made a factually correct statement

Based on past performance, Matt Garza is closer to Paul Maholm than Adam Wainwright.

by JSB on Jan 18, 2011 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Anybody know how Matt Garza compares to Ted Lilly before his move to the NL?

Both are from an AL East team so they faced the same teams basically. Though don’t think Matt had to face a team like the Rays were before 2007.

by ubercubsfan on Jan 18, 2011 11:29 AM CST up reply actions  

I've been silently wishing...

…someone would write a Garza vs. Lilly comparison article just because so many Cubs fans are using Ted as a reason to be hopeful about Matt.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 18, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

done for you daver

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 18, 2011 6:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks!

I haven’t had a chance to read ubercubsfan’s Fanpost and the comments therein closely yet, but I’ll do so ASAP.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 19, 2011 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't understand this post on many levels.

For one, I’ve said nearly countless times that Garza makes the Cubs better. My contention is that the improvement is not significant (i.e., Matt Garza makes the Cubs one, or at most two, games better than they were before).

Secondly, as has been discussed before, why do people who don’t like the trade have to wait to evaluate it, but those who like it don’t?

Again, as I have posted countless times, I am dying to be wrong. From a baseball perspective, there is absolutely nothing that would please me more than for Garza to be what Hendry thinks he is. But, when you look at things analytically, there’s not many reasons to believe that will be the case.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 18, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

And even if Garza is everything we all hope he is

We still paid TOR value at a time when his performance did not indicate he was that valuable. It could still look like a good deal in the long run if it all works out, but you usually gamble on upside when you have an opportunity to buy low. We bought high in anticipation of improvement.

by Bradsbeard on Jan 18, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I've seen this question raised many times here recently...
Secondly, as has been discussed before, why do people who don’t like the trade have to wait to evaluate it, but those who like it don’t?

…but have yet to see a tangible answer to it

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Jan 18, 2011 1:55 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I like the deal

and I think we have to wait and see how Garza does before we can full know if it was worth it or not.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Jan 18, 2011 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Correction

Garza is #48 in FIP, not #13. That’s out of 67 ranked pitchers.

I bet that makes you feel better.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Jan 17, 2011 5:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you sorting by FIP? I see him 13th.

Or I’m doing it wrong.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 6:03 PM CST up reply actions  

He's #13 on the 2nd page

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Jan 17, 2011 6:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Damnit, I sorted it wrong.

You’re right, thanks, tharr. Garza is worse than I initially posted.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 6:13 PM CST up reply actions  

If you look above

13 was a typo. He was 13th on the 2nd page… 48th overall.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 18, 2011 9:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Saw it...

as with any stat, it is what it is. Doesn’t really mean much all by it’s lonesome.

by SenorGato on Jan 19, 2011 12:30 AM CST up reply actions  

For instance...

I thought 13th in 2010 was impressive in the sense that it would have been 13th in 2010. Doesn’t mean much going forward…just that he was 13th in FIP in 2010. I could easily name 13 pitchers I think will be better than Garza next year, and the significance of that is also pretty small.

by SenorGato on Jan 19, 2011 12:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Is Ricky Nolasco better

Pretty good FIP. Had a 4.3 war with a 5 ERA how do you that? Hes above Cole Hamels in FIP

by Mitchener on Jan 19, 2011 1:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Hmpf, that is curious.

But that’s the power of FIP: 5.06 ERA/3.35 FIP/3.28 xFIP in 2009. Career high (thus far) BABIP of .336. Ricky ran into some very bad luck.

I also can’t help but notice that Randy Wells was more valuable than Nolasco in 2010. Interesting…

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 19, 2011 9:13 AM CST up reply actions  

You should look at his stats with w/risp

He gets crushed. Gives up way more walks per ab and home runs so you cant blame the defense on that.

by Mitchener on Jan 20, 2011 2:48 AM CST up reply actions  

No, but RISP stats...

…usually come in small sample sizes. So they’re not the best predictors and, again, the bad luck thing may be more to blame.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 20, 2011 9:33 AM CST up reply actions  

The guy must be very unlucky

Never comes close to his FIP.

I think someone should look at BABIP w/runners on and risp. Because it seems like one thing FIP cant account for is whether a pitcher pitches well under pressure.

by Mitchener on Jan 20, 2011 6:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I do think that Garza is a good bit better than Gorzelanny

But if they didn’t get actual prospects from the Nationals, it really looks like they gave up too much for that improvement. A trade of Gorzo, Archer, Lee, Chirinos. Guyer, and Fuld for Garza, a 4-5 outfielder and miscellaneous minor league spare parts doesn’t sound like much of a deal for the Cubs.

How much did they get for Lou Brock again?

by ClarkFan on Jan 17, 2011 8:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I think

Archer is a relief pitcher. I don’t think Lee will have the glove to be a significant piece on the MLB club. I liked Chirinos a lot as a backup catcher, but Max Ramirez doesn’t look too much worse, if he can make the club. I don’t think Guyer or Fuld are prospects.

I think Garza is quite a bit of improvement over Gorzo.

I could be wrong about all of the above, but I think Hendry did a solid job upgrading the rotation without giving up anything we can’t live without. The prospects were highly rated now—but if Archer can’t continue his success as a 2-pitch pitcher in the big leagues, or if Lee continues to have a lot of errors and doesn’t improve his significantly, their value is going to drop a lot.

 Hendry finally traded some guys at peak value. He traded Gorz, who he basically got for nothing a couple years ago, for 2 of a team’s top 20 prospects. Despite me being a card-carrying member of the fire Hendry club, I can acknowledge that he worked this fairly well. I’d rather have Adrian Gonzalez, but the club is better in the short term, and I don’t think it’s significantly worse off in the long term.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jan 17, 2011 9:23 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

It certainly is possible, but you don't know that Hendry traded them at peak value.

Just as you noted above, since none of us know the future… we sure can’t say who was, or wasn’t, traded at “peak value” yet.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 9:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Michael Burgess is the OF

http://twitter.com/#!/jonmorosi/status/27092519946813440

If everybody likes you, then either no one knows anything about you, or you're dead.

Fantasy Prospect Central: http://fantasyprospectcentral.blogspot.com/

by Archie A on Jan 17, 2011 2:04 PM CST reply actions  

interesting

Burgess was viewed as a bust his first couple pro seasons, but when I saw him in Potomac in ’09, I was shocked by how clearly good his tools were. And he made some major strides in contact last season, while continuing to show excellent power. Not a bad start.

by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Hate to see Gorzo go

But Burgess as part of the package back isn’t such a bad return. He does strike out a lot but has a ton of pop in his bat and as good an arm from RF that you’ll see. He was 21 last season and held is own fairly well in AA for a short period (1.000+ OPS in around 25 games).

by Crash1207 on Jan 17, 2011 2:32 PM CST up reply actions  

He's a lefty

and was a Nats’ 1st round choice (20 something) in 2007

Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville

by leothelip on Jan 17, 2011 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Way more athletic than Branyan though.

Burgess is a true outfielder, not a 1B posing at an outfielder like Branyan.

by Crash1207 on Jan 18, 2011 10:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Good pickup.

He can hit for decent average, he talks walks, and he’s got power. Also was a high profile draft pick…

by SenorGato on Jan 17, 2011 10:50 PM CST up reply actions  

No lefties in the rotation?

Going to be rough against the Brewers and Phillies.

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Jan 17, 2011 2:07 PM CST reply actions  

true but...

how easy would it be with one lefty in the rotation?

by txtom on Jan 17, 2011 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

But... but... we got left-handed power in the lineup now. LOL.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Jan 17, 2011 2:10 PM CST up reply actions  

point taken Sackman! LOL

I forget, how’d that work out last time… ?

I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".

by jeffstorm2 on Jan 17, 2011 3:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Sadly

It can’t be Harper. They can’t trade him until they’ve had him a year.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 2:10 PM CST reply actions  

I'll take Strasburg "on the cheap"

and wait out the TJ surgery ;).

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Jan 17, 2011 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Gorzo Fleecing

I think the prospects are two nobodies named Stephen Strasburg and Bryce Harper. The Nats became impatient with them. (Sigh) Seems like the Cubbies got fleeced again. This is like Groundhog Day—-the names may change but the concept remains intact.

by A.A. Stagg on Jan 17, 2011 2:12 PM CST reply actions  

Good Luck Gorzo

Guy did a decent job. Maybe one of three will amount to a decent player in return.

by Grockcubs on Jan 17, 2011 2:16 PM CST reply actions  

Unless the prospects are somewhat decent, this is kind of dumb.

Gorzelanny was a nice guy to have around. 2 million for a nice lefty who can spot start or go long relief would have been a fine price to pay.

by mic on Jan 17, 2011 2:17 PM CST reply actions  

I agree

I don’t see the point of this move except to save $2million, which when you just gave $850k to Koyie Hill seems pretty dumb.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe because they have 16 starting pitchers?

"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"

by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Some of them might be.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Even without Gorz

The bullpen still includes Marmol, Wood, Cashner, Marshall, Russell.

Not to mention guys like Samardzija, Coleman, McNutt, Jay Jackson…

"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"

by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

You're not going to mention

Samardzija. Cool.

Keep McNutt in the minors all 2011. He doesn’t become eligible for the Rule 5 draft in December. Keep him off the 40 man so he can pitch through the strike/lockout.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Then maybe they shouldn't have traded 4 good prospects for Matt Garza

If they get something decent for Gorz, this is a fine move. Otherwise, it seems dumb.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

AKA, the MO of the Chicago Cubs.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I wonder if Maddux

approved this one. j/k. kind of.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually, I'm sure Maddux was consulted.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Can we stop this now

Just because Greg Maddux is working in the front-office doesn’t mean that all their moves are going to be good. I am already tired of this meme.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not necessarily saying this move is good or bad.

Just that Maddux is likely consulted on everything.

The Cubs had some rotation depth. Gorzo was the most tradeable. Thus, he was traded. Obviously, we’d have liked it better if they could have moved Carlos Silva, but that probably wasn’t possible.

I don’t love this move, but neither do I hate it.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

We don't know if the people coming in have value or not, yet.

Most posters here are assuming the worst, apparently.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

It's a real time-saver.

"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"

by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:33 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

and heart saver.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I already hate it

Seems like they gave him away to save $.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

You've pretty much summed up my thoughts on this move.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Quit playng it so safe...

“nice” isn’t the goal.

I love how aggressive the Cubs are being this offseason. We’ve added some good MLB talent, decent minor league talent, and only gave up a nice ML pitcher and some decent prospects.

by SenorGato on Jan 17, 2011 10:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Playing it safe should be the goal when assembling a bullpen.

I look back on the prospects the Cubs got in return and I’m not too mad about the deal—I think Hendry did all right on this one.

But “decent minor league talent” is about all you can say about it. And I think you are undervaluing what we gave up. They aren’t just “decent prospects.” They were definitely “high quality prospects.” Whether they will be “high quality major leaguers” we won’t know for awhile—but they are more than decent prospects.

But still, after last season’s failure of a bullpen, I’m of the mindset that you can never have enough cheap and young veteran pitchers who are dependable (and left-handed to boot).

by mic on Jan 18, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I really hate this

It is hard to imagine the any of the guys will be top flight and lefty starters are at a premium.
I think this is a sell low we have to many back end starters. This is another domino from the Garza trade.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Jan 17, 2011 2:24 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

Yep

Makes the Garza move look even worse.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:27 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't know

I understand the importance of a lefty ( please no Russell in the rotation) however the Cubs still have depth in the rotation. Coleman and Carpenter could be options as well.
 If this Burgess kid is included in the deal, I will take it. This is Gorzo not Cliff Lee, Gorzo is a 5th starter period.

by Grockcubs on Jan 17, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

This is the point in a nutshell.

I don’t even know that Garza is an upgrade from Lilly. But it appears we just gave up 4 of our top 12 prospects, and Tom Gorzelanny, to find out.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 4:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Are there any people here who liked the Garza trade but hate this one?

Because that would not make sense.

"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"

by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:27 PM CST reply actions   2 recs

Bingo

This was the logical follow-up to the Garza trade.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:36 PM CST up reply actions  

It was logical BEFORE the Garza trade.

Considering the team’s SP depth.

But I agree.

"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"

by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point

Although I still thought Gorz seemed like a good value at $2million.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

He might have been.

Now, this could free up some money for a mid season acquisition, possibly.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

That doesn't make a lot of sense

I can’t imagine another team is going to give up a cost-controlled player (a full-priced MLB player of Gorz’s value won’t be available for $2million) without us trading more prospects.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Isn't it more likely

This was necessitated because of acquiring Garza?

Deferring some of Pena’s $, having to get Wood’s small salary approved, and then acquiring Garza surely meant some other money had to be dealt, no?

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Possibly so.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah...like trading for a LH starting pitcher...

…this trade was beyond stupid.

"I think part of a best friend's job should be to immediately clear your computer history if you die." - Anonymous

by Easy Ed on Jan 17, 2011 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Boy, I sure am going to miss saying "Gorzo"

When is the last time the Cubs didn’t have a lefty in the starting rotation?

Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!

by DKT on Jan 17, 2011 2:27 PM CST reply actions  

The 2002 Cubs had no LHP in the rotation.

Wood, Prior, Lieber, Bere, Clement, Zambrano started 127 of the 162 games.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

And that team was terrible.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

But not because of the starting pitching.

Check it out. Except for Bere, the other five starters did a very good job. The bullpen is what doomed that team.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I know, that was a bad team...

…And that’s pre-injuries Lieber. Was Fassero still closing then?

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Only for the first half of the season.

He was good in 2001, awful in 2002, eventually traded to the Cardinals.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

For a team that was as bad as that one....

I don’t have the heart to research who started the other 35 games. I’d be willing to bet the names on the list would make any Cub fan sick to their stomach.

"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004

by ctcoff99 on Jan 17, 2011 6:36 PM CST up reply actions  

It is quite

a list.

Juan Cruz 9
Alan Benes 7
Steve Smyth 7
Pat Mahomes 2

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 6:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't hate it but don't get it

And while it might be a domino from the Garza trade Gorz was mentioned as trade bait well before that trade – I just don’t why they were so eager to move him and/or announce he was available

by doofusguy on Jan 17, 2011 2:28 PM CST reply actions  

Michael Burgess

Ranked the number 8 Nationals prospect by Sickels. Unfortunately they apparently have a terrible Minor League system because Sickels only has him as a C+. For comparison purposes, Guyer was a B-.

Michael Burgess, OF, Grade C+: Borderline B-. Power, arm strength, don’t expect batting average.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/11/27/1839272/washington-nationals-top-20-prospects-for-2011

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:29 PM CST reply actions  

Burgess

has more potential than Guyer. Guyer doesn’t have the tools that Burgess does. I like this trade.

by Ryno G on Jan 17, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Burgess is four years younger than Guyer.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

And he projects to have way more power...

Guy hit 24 between low and high A in ’08…18 last year between high A and AA at 21…6 in 87 PA in AA.

by SenorGato on Jan 17, 2011 10:54 PM CST up reply actions  

as Callis just said on Twitter

he’s better (and younger) than Guyer, Sickels was way off there (overrating Guyer)

Jim Callis
Burke doesn’t have Burgess’ power. @crocketttm: So how does Burgess differ from Kyler Burke? That seems to be Burke’s exact profile

by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Frankly, more than I thought we'd be getting.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jan 17, 2011 4:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Goz

has never really amounted to anything. Big deal they traded away a pitcher. It does remain to be seen if as a LH he matures this year or next.

Is it April yet?

by wild bill on Jan 17, 2011 2:33 PM CST reply actions  

Let's all keep in mind that it's the so-called "marginal players/prospects"

that were used to acquire Gorz. ( Kevin Hart, Jose Ascanio & Josh Harrison)

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Jan 17, 2011 2:34 PM CST reply actions  

Ah, the old

We traded a walkman to get this iPod, so who cares if we give it away for free argument.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Correct.

Hopefully one of three that came in this trade will amount to a decent player, it is a win.

by Grockcubs on Jan 17, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions  

The Cubs have done a pretty good job

of acquiring some of these types of players and using them in trades to acquire useful pieces.

Hey, it's a new century!

by cowsarecool220 on Jan 17, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Harrison

might end up being a good major leaguer one day. Hart and Ascanio are disposable relievers, at best.

by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2011 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

this argument is so damn dumb.

“Hey, we actually probably came out ahead in a deal, so let’s turn around and see if we can’t erase that gain!”

"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer

by BoVandy on Jan 18, 2011 10:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Al, I am NOT re-writing the Top 20 prospects again

But Burgess would probably check in around #8 or #9 in our system. Kevin Goldstein at BP ranked him as the #7 prospect in the Nats system. Young kid with great power. Works the count deep, which leads to a lot of BBs and a lot of Ks. Goldstein does question his bat speed.

All in all, a great pickup for Gorzelanny.

by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2011 2:37 PM CST reply actions   2 recs

On that note,

I like this trade. If Josh puts the guy in our Top dozen, it earns my stamp regardless the two pitchers. With all the new guys, I’ll rely on other people’s prospect lists this year.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Garza Trade

He wouldn’t rank top 10 if the four guys ranked ahead of him hadn’t gone in the Garza trade. He’d be around #12 with Archer, Chirinos, Guyer and Lee in the system.

Burgess reminds me of Reggie Golden, our second round pick this year.

by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Hmmm

Well, that sounds better than the Sickels evaluation. Maybe this will turn out to be an ok move.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:41 PM CST up reply actions  

That's good to know.

Hopefully, Burgess will be in the top 10 next year, also.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Back end of the top 10 sounds about right

Great tools, questionable production, still young enough to make a breakthrough.

The fact that a player with his profile is in the Cubs’ system is a bit disconcerting. We haven’t had a strong track record with guys like Burgess.

by Outshined_One on Jan 17, 2011 2:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, that's some good news.

He sounds a bit like Carlos Pena.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 17, 2011 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Should have traded Wells.

Russell to the rotation is interesting.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 2:38 PM CST reply actions  

Why trade Wells?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions  

OK, let's make the question different.

You have to pick one starter to deal. Who, and why?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:47 PM CST up reply actions  

TRICK QUESTION

Z, because he is unstable and lazy and stuff.

"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"

by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

LOL

But you can’t do that due to the NTC. Try again.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

There's got to be a clause in the NTC

that states “If the player is certifiably crazy, you can trade him anyway.”

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, I would never have acquired Garza

Assuming that I can’t trade Silva, I guess I would choose Gorz. But, I reject the premise.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Why?

Since your answer is premised on not acquiring Garza, it’s not logical.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I reject the premise that they had to trade a starter

Even after acquiring Garza I think they should have kept Gorz.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Why?

The Cubs have about eight people competing for five spots. You’d keep him just because he’s a LHP?

That’s not an unreasonable position, mind you. But the reflexive “this is awful” before you even hear what the Cubs got in return, that’s what bothers me.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Because I know the prospects will be worse than what we gave up for Garza

That’s why I hate it. In isolation the move might turn out to be a good trade, but if the Cubs thought they had an excess of starting pitching the Garza trade just makes no sense.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

You "know" this?

Do tell.

Yes, I’m aware that Archer and Lee are regarded more highly than whoever we get. But until any of them play in the major leagues, you can’t make that judgment, in my opinion.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Then how do you

“know” that Garza will be better than what he’s been (or what we had)… when there’s nothing or, very little, statistically to support it?

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:07 PM CST up reply actions  

This is such a hair-pulling argument

All minor leaguers aren’t equal Al. Saying it over-and-over again doesn’t make it so. Sure, we don’t know how they are going to pan out, but we clearly gave up more value in the Garza deal than we got back in the Gorz deal.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:09 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

No, they are not equal, but the evidence that these particular ones are

worth more than Garza in open for debate also. Stating that the Garza deal is bad over-and-over again doesn’t make it so either. You don’t like the deal. We get it.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:14 PM CST up reply actions  

And many on here are fine

with trading 1/3 of our top dozen prospects for a modest upgrade at SP, which was the position of relative strength for this team.

We get that, too.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

It's not open for debate

We gave up two top 100 prospects and 2 B-/C+type prospects for Garza. We are getting back 2 B-/C+ type prospects for Gorz.

These two trades in combination made our minor league system weaker. That really isn’t up for debate.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Sure it's open to debate. You have an opinion and so do I. Just because you don't

agree with it doesn’t make it any less legitimate than yours. You can try and state your opinion as fact until the cows come home, but it’s still your opinion. It hasn’t been proven and it won’t be proven until the careers of the players are more established.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:20 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

This is what you are arguing

You are arguing that Michael Burgess + AJ Morris > Chris Archer, HJ Lee, Brandon Guyer and Robinson Chirinos.

You really want to go out on that limb? Because from my vantage point, that seems pretty silly.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm just open to the possibility that the combination of Archer and

Lee aren’t the second coming of Nolan Ryan and Ozzie Smith. Sure, they are nice prospects and there is a chance that they could develop into really good major league players, but I’m not as sure of that as you are. It’s just an opinion and I’m not going to damn you for disagreeing with it.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure of it either

I am sure that they have a better chance than the guys we got back in this Gorz trade.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

We are probably in agreement on that. The fact that the names

weren’t mentioned doesn’t bode well for their futures. This trade may be the last you ever hear of them.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

and Gorz

is a guy the talent starved Pirates sent back to the minors to delay his arbitration.

Garza was a key pitcher for a playoff calibre team the last few years.

I’m not sold on the Garza trade yet, but Garza is a much more ‘projectible’ pitcher than Gorz.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I love that the pro-Garza camp

Dismisses prospects because they could never contribute while relying on Garza’s “projectability” and stuff at the same time.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Sure. I'm surprised when anyone throws a no-hitter.

Were you surprised when Dallas Braden threw a perfect game?

What’s the point?

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think Gorz

is a very good big league pitcher. I’d be stunned if he pitched a no-no.

He’ll do fine in Washington where nobody cares how he does.

I’m not sold on the Garza deal, but Garza >>>Gorz.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 3:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Those of us opposed to the Garza trade realize Garza is better than Gorz.

The “problem” is the difference is not nearly what you might think it is.

It is more like Garza>Gorz. And last year, Gorz was more valuable in his limited starts than Garza was all season.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

You're not going to

hang your hat on the Pirates’ ability to evaluate talent, are you?

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Nah, but if he

was appearing as good as Zach Duke was looking, they’d have kept Gorz.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

But these trades also made the Cubs major league teambetter,

at least IMO. Garza is an upgrade over Wells/Gorz and is a likely replacement for Dempster long term.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with that

I don’t think the upgrade from Gorz to Garza was worth the premium prospects we gave up. But, I suppose that at least can be argued.

I don’t see how you can argue in good faith that the haul of prospects we got back in the Gorz deal is better than what we gave up for Garza.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I can't either.

But what’s done is done. I think Garza is going to be good here. Archer might turn out fine, we didn’t need Lee or Chirinos or Fuld. Garza is an upgrade to our rotation and should be our #2 for the foreseeable future.

Gorzelanny is not as good as Garza, that’s why what we got in return for him wasn’t as high.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions  

As you know, I'm "with you" on this argument.

But, the actual “math” of the equation would be: Michael Burgess + AJ Morris + (Garza-Gorz) > Chris Archer, HJ Lee, Brandon Guyer and Robinson Chirinos.

Now you and I believe that “>” should be a “<”, in part because the difference between Garza and Gorz is not that large.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I think this is the statement that started this sub-thread
we clearly gave up more value in the Garza deal than we got back in the Gorz deal.

For some reason Willie Mays Hayes tried to argue with that statement.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope wrong. I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth, now.

I can make a silly wrong-headed argument all by myself, thank you. I just differ with your opinion of the players in the original Garza deal. I would never go out on a limb and try to justify that deal by stating that we got equal value in this deal. I have no idea of what we got today. The fact that names weren’t probably means we didn’t get much.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

You did

I said that the trades made our minor league system weaker. You said we don’t know that.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Either you misunderstood me or I stated it poorly. I

wasn’t intimating that this deal made up for the Garza deal. In my opinion, that deal did not have to be made up for at all.

"Hats for bats.....keep bats warm." - Pedro Cerrano
"Hey bartender, Jobu needs a refill !!!!!!!" - Eddie Harris

by willie mays hayes' gloves on Jan 17, 2011 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

But that isn't the question.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Because Gorzelanny has a higher ceiling IMO.

Wells is an overrated pitcher who is inconsistent and throw very hittable stuff. Plus we now have a better version of him called Matt Garza.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd disagree with you.

Maybe lefties mature later and maybe he’ll do OK in Washington.

But I still think Wells is a solid #4 guy.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I think Wells is a nice #4.

I just think Gorzelanny is a better pitcher he out-performed Wells last season despite splitting time in the bullpen/rotation.

Gorzelanny will have a good year in Washington and will then sign with the White Sox as a free-agent.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 2:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Is he even FA-eligible yet?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point, I don't believe he is, yet.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope. Arb 3 next year.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

he is a super 2

so 2013 will be last arb year.

by lakhania on Jan 17, 2011 5:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I was going off Cot's. They had him listed as arb 3 next year.

Oh well…. point being, he isn’t a FA after next year.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 6:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I just have a hunch that he'll end up with the Sox

and Don Cooper will help him.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

really?

follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com

by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 17, 2011 6:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh lord.

The no lefties in the rotation is a bit unsettling. Once I see the names in the trade I will formulate an opinion. Too bad they couldn’t move Silva.

"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"

by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 17, 2011 2:45 PM CST reply actions  

I'd like to see the catapult that could send Silva flying.

I’m picturing a Monty Python kind of image.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually, I'd just like to see the fail whale picture again.

First time I saw it I got everyone in the office looking my way I laughed so hard

by CubFan90 on Jan 17, 2011 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

His rotundness would equate to him making as much

damage as an actual cannonball.

"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"

by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 17, 2011 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

There were no bulldozers available.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

State high point count: 3/50

Beat the Chicago Bears, THEN I'll talk about the Packers being in the Super Bowl. But not until that happens.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 17, 2011 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Daley rented them for years to a private company?

good grief.

"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"

by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 17, 2011 5:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah,

He sent them to a private firm so Meigs Field was no longer an airport.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

State high point count: 3/50

Beat the Chicago Bears, THEN I'll talk about the Packers being in the Super Bowl. But not until that happens.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 17, 2011 9:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Well... would've liked to keep Gorzo, but this was going to happen.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Jan 17, 2011 2:45 PM CST reply actions  

Confused

I’m confused as to what the plan is here ? No lefty in the rotation ?

by jda on Jan 17, 2011 2:53 PM CST reply actions  

Therein lies the problem!

THERE IS NO PLAN!

JOKE’S ON US!

BUAHWHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAA

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 5:03 PM CST up reply actions  

It's gonna be interesting to see how Gorz and Garza do this season

I have a feeling it will be a lot closer than their respective trade values.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:54 PM CST reply actions  

AJ Morris

is one of the pitchers, according to the twitters

by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 2:55 PM CST reply actions  

he's a 4th round pick, so he must have some talent haha.

"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie

by lexmarklover on Jan 17, 2011 2:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I like his low BB/HR numbers - both very good..

But he’s a low-minor prospect who’s already 24, so is kind of a long shot just by virtue of that alone. If he’s maintaniing his current stats at AA in the next year, then maybe we’ve got something, but that’s a big if just like it always is with prospects.

by DisCUBbobulated on Jan 17, 2011 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Sickels evaluation

17) A.J. Morris, RHP, Grade C+: I like him better than the numbers say I should.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

2:51pm: Right-hander A.J. Morris is also going from the Nationals to the Cubs, according to MLB.com’s Bill Ladson (Twitter link).

by Ryno G on Jan 17, 2011 2:57 PM CST reply actions  

Baseball America

hasn’t released their Nats Top 30 yet, but in a chat they said Burgess would be “Closer to 20.” (Presumably around #18 or so, give or take one). They love his power and his arm, but question his approach at the plate. They also said he was young and could still be a good player.

by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2011 2:57 PM CST reply actions  

don't worry folks.

Morris will have a great year next year and will be ranked top 5 in the Cubs farm system. People will adore him and never want him to be traded.

"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie

by lexmarklover on Jan 17, 2011 2:58 PM CST reply actions  

Let's hope that happens

Hopefully these prospects turn out to be good.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

That would make this deal decent, right?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure

If Burgess turns out to be a MLB outfielder, then this will be a decent deal. I still think the whole trade for Garza-and then-deal-Gorz plan seems really dumb. But, whatever.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

if it makes you feel better

gorz was pretty much off the team the second brian wilson struck out nelson cruz

He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA

by jesus christos on Jan 17, 2011 3:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, that actually would make me feel better about this deal

If this trade had nothing to do with the Garza deal, then if they got fair value, then it’s fine. But, I don’t see how they aren’t related. I mean, why would you trade for a starter if you already thought you had too many.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I believe I can speak for everyone when I say...

… we understand that you didn’t like the Garza deal and do not like the Gorzo deal.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"

by Ross on Jan 17, 2011 3:58 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

...and then he will be traded....

for another mediocre big league player.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 17, 2011 3:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Baseball America on Morris

" Morris really clicked after moving to the bullpen, showing a 93-95 mph fastball with serious life, and I think he’ll be a quality bullpen option in the majors pretty quickly."

They have him ranked in the 11-20 range.

by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2011 2:59 PM CST reply actions  

Kevin Goldstein on Morris

“17. A.J. Morris, RHP: He’s a classic sinker/slider type who might work better in a relief role.”

That’s ranked #17 in the Nats system.

by Josh Timmers on Jan 17, 2011 3:01 PM CST reply actions  

?

I’m not being sarcastic when I ask if anyone has any real insight into what the plan is for this season . Hendry makes a big trade to land an 8th starter causing a log jam and the guy he moves to make room is the only lefty in the rotation ? I REALLY don’t understand this anymore .

by jda on Jan 17, 2011 3:01 PM CST reply actions  

"Hendry makes a big trade to land an 8th starter causing a log jam "

what?

"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie

by lexmarklover on Jan 17, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Matt Garza

Oh, I don’t know. The biggest off-season move by the Cubs.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Look, it's not easy to fill out an 8-man rotation.

The deal had to be made.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 17, 2011 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

There's no rule

saying you HAVE to have a lefty. Get over it. You pitch your best 5 guys.

by Ryno G on Jan 17, 2011 3:03 PM CST reply actions   2 recs

Gorzo was the one dragging Wells out at nights

He was the Mark Grace to Randy’s young Kerry Wood – had to get rid of him to save the future!!!!

by doofusguy on Jan 17, 2011 3:05 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

Gorzo was the one dragging Wells out at nights

Got any proof of this?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

There has to be a unnamed source

somewhere

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Jan 17, 2011 6:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Deepgoat!

"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer

by BoVandy on Jan 18, 2011 10:49 PM CST up reply actions  

isn't Gorz married?

"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie

by lexmarklover on Jan 17, 2011 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes and

he and his wife had a baby last season.

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Jan 17, 2011 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Do you have a source?

"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"

by Lord Palmerston on Jan 17, 2011 3:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow, I have to say,

Only a doofus would say something like this. ;-)

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

State high point count: 3/50

Beat the Chicago Bears, THEN I'll talk about the Packers being in the Super Bowl. But not until that happens.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 17, 2011 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

JSB

Let me start by saying I think you are spot-on most of the time. In this case, I think you are a bit off base. Clearly, the Cubs don’t feel that Gorz is one of their top 5 starting options. That fact coupled with the 2mil they clearly need to cover the budget would indicate they should move him. Moving him now before it becomes too apparent how little he figures into their plans makes a lot of sense. He is unnecessary and and would be overpaid in the pen. Furthermore, this is the last season that Gorz would come very cheaply as he enters final arb yr next season.

by Mmurton on Jan 17, 2011 3:30 PM CST reply actions  

That is a good argument

I think the reason I hate this trade is not the trade itself. It actually seems like the Cubs got some decent prospects back for Gorz. I really hate this trade because I just see it as part of the Garza trade.

If the Cubs didn’t think Gorzellany was one of their 5 best starting pitchers even before the Garza trade, then i guess it’s fine.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Garza's No Hitter

and solid seasons surprised few. If Gorz were to put up a low-WHIP, high K/9 IP, the MLB world would be surprised.

For that talent step=up, you surrender more high-end prospects.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Gorz was pretty comparable to Garza last season

He was also formerly a pretty good prospect. Gorzo has talent. It really wouldn’t surprise me that much if he had a better season than Garza.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

This is why the Cubs should have dealt Wells.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 3:45 PM CST up reply actions  

To me

Garza >>> Wells >> Gorz

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I disagree.

And Wells is very trade-able. I can see why the Cubs kept him, he’s cheaper and younger than Gorzelanny. But I feel that Gorzelanny is a better pitcher with a higher ceiling. Wells over-achieved in 2009 IMO.

"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella

by tripdenten on Jan 17, 2011 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Wells got overworked in 2009

All the rest of the starters broke down. Verducci effect hinted at a bad 2010. If he has his head on straight, he could make for a good 4 until he gets too expensive.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Can I borrow your time machine?

Oh wait…

"I'm not a broadcaster! I'm me!"--Ron Santo

by chilango2 on Jan 17, 2011 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

What will the S&P500 close at that day?

I mean, it looks like you have this “view of the future” thing down cold. Might as well make some money from it……

I can almost see/hear the press conference, with some member of the Ricketts family standing by and nodding sagely. Is it February 2 yet?

by ClarkFan on Jan 17, 2011 9:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, this is goodbye to Gorzo.

My best (and really only) memory of Gorzelanny in a Cubs uniform is when I went to see him pitch on Sunday night baseball against the Phillies.

Wonderful night, first game in the bleachers.

I wish him well from here on.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

State high point count: 3/50

Beat the Chicago Bears, THEN I'll talk about the Packers being in the Super Bowl. But not until that happens.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 17, 2011 3:50 PM CST reply actions  

Decent return for Gorzo but

I don’t like no lefties in the starting rotation. I think mixing up the rotation helps.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Jan 17, 2011 3:54 PM CST reply actions  

I prefer a lefty or two in the rotation as well...

…but not enough to try and shoehorn James Russell in there. (Not that you’re saying we should.)

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 17, 2011 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree completely on that as well.

Russell should stay in the pen.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Jan 17, 2011 3:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I think it's a solid value return

usually when Hendry trades away players, the guys we get aren’t on any list of the system’s top prospects, and these 2 guys are both top 10-20 (albeit in a weak system).

I do wish Hendry would’ve adressed some of the near-term needs of the team and system, that being corner infielders and outfielders. We’ve got enough center field/4th outfielder prospects and big-league players to fill 10 rosters, and so many starters we can’t give them away, but don’t have a single 3B or 1B prospect that anyone has confidence will matriculate, and we’re lucky that Soriano is here forever to block prospects because we don’t have any power-hitting outfielder either.

We’re either going to pay a ton of money on the FA market to fill the power void over the next 2 years, or we are going to have one weak-hitting lineup.

I know you don’t draft/make trades for minor leaguers to fill needs in general, but at some point players become redundant, and needs become prominent.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jan 17, 2011 4:17 PM CST reply actions  

On the Nats board

they say the OF is blocked by Werth and Harper.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I am worried that other teams will not trade with us anymore!

The way Washington was just fleeced makes me worried the other GMs will not want to be taken advantage of the way Hendry does to other teams!

Its bad publicity! Then on top of it they have to hear how Maddux approves as well!
Its just to much!
We can be happy that Hendry is on our side!!!!

by TJ11 on Jan 17, 2011 4:23 PM CST reply actions  

i dont see why

people are down about this trade. We got good value in return

by CalCalender on Jan 17, 2011 4:25 PM CST reply actions  

Compare this value

to what we gave up just two years back for the same guy. Win.

by CalCalender on Jan 17, 2011 4:30 PM CST reply actions  

I think that's a bad argument

I saw it used with Chris Archer too. If you think the Cubs got good value for Gorz, that’s one thing. But what we gave up to get him really shouldn’t effect how we feel about this trade.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

i see your point

i think they got value back. I still really liked Gorz and his xFIP but Wells, Gorz, Dempster are basically the same pitcher so we were going to lose one of them.

by CalCalender on Jan 17, 2011 4:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I see your point.

But I don’t think it’s disastrous if the Cubs don’t have a LHP in the rotation.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 4:42 PM CST up reply actions  

its not

but i would be the farm that like the poster mentioned above you can just see the 2011 press conference where JH bemoans the lack of LH starting pitcher.

by CalCalender on Jan 17, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah

the one thing i really do like is Burgess is a power hitting prospect which outside of Reggie Golden our system lacks

by CalCalender on Jan 17, 2011 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Other than

to give a hat tip to Hendry for essentially “flipping” Gorz for 2 years of his control at a cheap price and an upgrade in prospects.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jan 17, 2011 4:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure

But that’s more about the other trade (which I think was a huge win for Hendry) than about this trade.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I have posted a poll on the right sidebar on this deal.

Please vote.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 17, 2011 4:41 PM CST reply actions  

Just catching up on all the comments.

If Josh is giving this a tentative thumbs up, then I will, too. Gorzo didn’t have much of a place in the rotation (maybe even before the Garza trade). Assuming this isn’t Michael Wuertz Redux, I’m fine with this move.

by elgato on Jan 17, 2011 4:44 PM CST reply actions  

Best Wishes Gorz

Team guy, did everything he was supposed to do, will be missed

I think Marshall should get a shot at starting

13- Warner, 23- Sandberg, 40- Tillman, 11- Walter

by TBru on Jan 17, 2011 4:51 PM CST reply actions  

+1

Plus, Marshall was great last year as a late-inning setup guy. Given all that hasn’t gone well for the Cubs in the past two seasons, sticking with one thing that actually did might be a good idea.

by elgato on Jan 17, 2011 4:58 PM CST up reply actions  

He no likey

Hagerstown. At least the others look legit.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 4:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I actually like Hicks a good bit

big projectable lefty, stuff hasn’t developed as much as they hoped for a guy who’s 6’5, but not bad. strikes guys out, a bit too hittable still. this is the type of guy the Cubs have had success developing, unlike Burgess (who I think was a good get despite that fact).

If these are the three guys, I think it’s a pretty decent bunch for a 28 year old swingman

by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 4:58 PM CST up reply actions  

A 28-year-old swingman ...

who was fighting four guys (five, if you count Russell) for two spots.

Given the Cubs’ apparent faith in Cashner to land one of those jobs and the fact that Wells really didn’t pitch that badly last season and his comments about being too big for his britches … I think Gorzo was replaceable.

by elgato on Jan 17, 2011 5:06 PM CST up reply actions  

I really respect those of you

who have knowledge of guys like this…. without having to look through your notes. I can’t keep our guys straight all the time. To have the Nats system down as well. Kudos

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 5:06 PM CST up reply actions  

ha

I lived in DC for a few years, and got a steady diet of Nats news…can’t name every team’s top 30, unfortunately. hopefully the Cubs will keep trading with the teams I do know

by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 5:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Not in Sickels evaluation of Nats prospects

At least the other two guys are actual prospects.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 4:55 PM CST up reply actions  

5+ ERA in successive trips to

the equivalent of Peoria will do that.

by timh815 on Jan 17, 2011 4:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Just curious

Is there a way to turn off the comments portion of the website??

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."

by Section 312 on Jan 17, 2011 5:07 PM CST reply actions  

Well, seriously.

Saying you’re against comments on a blog (even to make a point) is like saying you don’t like wheels on a car.

by elgato on Jan 17, 2011 5:12 PM CST up reply actions  

No

it’s like saying I don’t like the car stereo. The car still works and gets me where I want to go. I’m just not annoyed when I get there.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."

by Section 312 on Jan 17, 2011 5:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Hilarious crack

by the way about the newspaper. Except I live 800 miles north of Vancouver BC. Not a lot of Chicago papers up here.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."

by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 2:18 AM CST up reply actions  

you don't like the comments portion

but you apparently like the signature portion.. ;)

by PrincetonCubs on Jan 17, 2011 5:10 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't like it

I love it.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."

by Section 312 on Jan 17, 2011 5:13 PM CST up reply actions  

ya

there are these arrows on the right hand side of the screen – one pointing up and one pointing down…the up one keeps the comments from appearing, the down one should not be used by you

by hansman1982 on Jan 18, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't actually use the arrows

my mouse has a track ball. And I usually press ‘Z’ to get new comments. But thanks for your help. Very useful.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."

by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

What doesn't make sense?

I don’t always want to read the comments but they are there so I end up reading them. I was just curious if you could turn them off. Some of the comments and threads are worth reading sometimes I wish I could turn them off for a while. I am a complex person.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."

by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 5:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Well I am sure glad I asked

So I guess I will assume the answer to my question is no? Since no one was willing to give me a straight answer.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."

by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

In all seriousness...

…I’m fairly certain there’s no way to eliminate or turn off the comments. You could check in with the SB Nation support guys for a definitive answer.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 18, 2011 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

right under the red bar

set your comments setting to “collapsed”, and then uncheck the auto-refresh box.. Then, first thing, hit when you come to a page. That will mark all comments as read.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Jan 18, 2011 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah not really a full solution

but thanks for the suggestion.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."

by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 5:37 PM CST up reply actions  

well the easiest answer

is to not scroll down to the comments, read the article and move on…you dont need something to stop you from doing something when you can just stop doing that something

by hansman1982 on Jan 18, 2011 5:15 PM CST up reply actions  

I can stop doing

and have at times. I was just wondering if I could turn it off is all.

"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."

by Section 312 on Jan 18, 2011 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

if there is a headline click it and it will collapse the comment

other than that

by Villeslgr on Jan 19, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

What's the old saying?

Ask a fantastically stupid question, get a stupid answer?

"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer

by BoVandy on Jan 18, 2011 10:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Should have waited

So we get to Spring Training and a starter or two goes down ( like that will never happen).
While there is a risk Gorzo gets injured it is one worth taking as they did not get that much in return. I think his value would have gone up in Spring Training because of problems with other starting pitchers. Between having no lefty starters and the return I think it would have been better to hold him for a while.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Jan 17, 2011 5:08 PM CST reply actions  

I blame this all on

Theriot. It is his fault.

"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"

by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 17, 2011 5:49 PM CST reply actions  

Theriot?!

We both know it’s Aaron Miles’ fault.

by Ryno G on Jan 17, 2011 6:30 PM CST up reply actions  

True!

"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"

by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 17, 2011 11:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Why did we have to trade Gorzo?

He had a lot of good games and I didn’t think he was costing the Cubs that much money. I realize we are getting 3 for 1, but I suspect the 3 won’t make it. You hope so, but so few actually do! I still don’t get it, are we trying to improve our club or cut costs? Gorzo seemed like a cheap investment and a valuable commodity.

by Saratoga on Jan 17, 2011 6:29 PM CST reply actions  

After Garza was acquired, Gorzo made the most sense to trade.

Of the other guys in competition for the No. 4-5 spots, Gorzo was the most expensive guy who had any chance of bringing anything back in a trade. No team is gonna pay even $2 million for Carlos Silva, and why would anybody want Shark at this point?

I don’t hate this trade because I get the idea of dealing from strength. The Cubs had five or six guys competing for two spots, so they traded the one they thought could bring in the best haul without seriously hurting the team going forward. Also, with four lefties vying for bullpen spots, the Cubs don’t really have a need for Gorzo as a reliever.

I don’t know if I like this trade either, because I worry that this will be Michael Wuertz redux. I don’t hate the idea of dealing Gorzo — even though it potentially could make the Garza trade look worse. But I sure hope Hendry got something back in return. Otherwise …

by elgato on Jan 17, 2011 6:48 PM CST up reply actions  

True that Gorzo

probably doesn’t fit into the plans of a WS club. However, let’s look deeper at the trade. The Nats had tried to bolster their rotation with attempts to snag Lee and Grienke. Obviously they were not successful, but also, obviously, they have serious money to spend. That dictates the bargaining positions of both the Cubs and Nets. We all know Gorzelanny is cheap and a LHP.

The Cubs were in no hurry to trade TG. Despite all of this we received very little in prospect value. Again, it merely reinforces my contention that Hendry is a poor negotiator. I still haven’t perceived a valid organizational plan for the future. As for now, the plan seems to be reducing costs, raising prices and getting tax money wherever possible. What I haven’t seen is accountability from the decision makers. Perhaps someone has some comments from Maddux which will make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Jan 17, 2011 6:44 PM CST reply actions  

Maddux approved the Garza trade, so it's a good one.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 6:44 PM CST up reply actions  

From Maddux's lips to our ears

Can I assume he disapproved of this trade since Hendry hasn’t used him as a source?

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Jan 17, 2011 6:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I did see that from Josh.

There’s just no clear plan here. And the lack of lefties is…odd.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jan 17, 2011 6:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure it's that big of a deal.

The ’03 Cubs had a lefty in the rotation — but it was Shawn freaking Estes, who was just terrible that year. The ’04 team, which actually won more games than the ’03 team, started the season with five righties (Rusch was signed mid-season).

Granted Wood-Prior-Clement-Maddux-Z is a lot stronger than Z-Dempster-Garza-Cashner-Wells. But we have seen two Cubs teams in the past decade win 88 or more games without a significant lefty starter.

by elgato on Jan 17, 2011 6:55 PM CST up reply actions  

I think

he got a pretty good return for Gorz. Gorz is a 4th starter whose value gets a little boost because he’s cheap and left-handed. I think 2 of a team’s top 15 or 20 is a solid return.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jan 17, 2011 9:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Believe it or not, I agree.

I don’t have any issue with the return on this trade.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 9:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Entering the discussion late

but all you need to know about Burgess is he’s a power hitter with bad contact from Tampa. A Hendry home boy, aka left-handed Ryan Harvey. I’m not expecting much from him.

On the other hand, I could see them pushing Morris as a reliever all the way up to AAA by the end of the year to see whether they have anything in him.

No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.

by cubzfan on Jan 17, 2011 7:49 PM CST reply actions  

From Bruce Miles.....

http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/5088

He posts this insider link from the Nats perspective….some of the people on their message board are upset over losing Morris.

http://natsinsider.blogspot.com/2011/01/nats-get-gorzelanny-for-3-prospects.html#comments

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Jan 17, 2011 7:51 PM CST reply actions  

From some guy…

This is going to come back and haunt Nats Nation within 2 years. A.J. Morris was the second best pitching prospect I’ve seen in 3 years of watching Fall Instructional League. You don’t have to be very baseball knowledgeable to know who was #1.

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Jan 17, 2011 7:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Hope like heck that guy/gal is right. Though scouts surely don't seem to agree.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jan 17, 2011 7:55 PM CST up reply actions  

This was a salary-driven move

Let’s not forget that the Ricketts’ shot most of their wad on just buying the team – they’ve said from the gitgo that they were going to cut salary expenses. Hopefully one of the prospects will be Major League-worthy; I’m not going to grouse until Gorzelanny throws his no-hitter and the three “prospects” are driving Budweiser trucks.

"The problem with the world is everyone is a few drinks behind" - Humphrey Bogart

by eamus-catuli on Jan 17, 2011 7:57 PM CST reply actions  

Here's a decent article about Gorz

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/what-is-tom-gorzelanny/

I liked Gorz, seemed like a good guy, but anyone who thinks Garza is barely better than Gorz is a little deranged.

Chicago fan stuck in Florida.
RIP Ron Santo

by alkappy on Jan 17, 2011 8:17 PM CST reply actions  

Cameron makes some good points

I think Gorzo is a bit better than he gives him credit for, but the inconsistencies are definitely there. It will be interesting to see how he does in Washington.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 9:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I think a lot of that depends on whether you think Gorzo's 2008 was an anomaly

That really skews all his career numbers. Outside of 2008, Gorzo has been pretty good.

by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 9:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I like the return.

Morris could be a solid releiver, and Burgess looks like he could have some nice pop. Hopefully Burgess can turn into Tyler Colvin with the ability to draw walks.

by Dcr18 on Jan 17, 2011 8:31 PM CST reply actions  

FWIW Al did use a TJ friendly photo

with Hill right there for him

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka

by Cubbie-Tim on Jan 17, 2011 8:39 PM CST reply actions  

Burgess and Morris....

Nicely done Jim Hendry. I almost regret hating you so much for so long for casual reasons.

by SenorGato on Jan 17, 2011 11:09 PM CST reply actions  

Yep, for a guy we got for peanuts

Got Gorz & Grabow for Josh Harrison (minors), Jose Ascanio and Kevin Hart.

"Go Cubs!"

by Itchy on Jan 17, 2011 11:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I like the trade despite not having a Starting LH in the rotation.

What we got from Gorz was the maximum he could offer when he pitched. The kids they got in return have some upside, perhaps a different team can help them. Development is possible. Good trade for Jimbo.

"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"

by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 18, 2011 1:27 AM CST reply actions  

This Trade

Looking at this trade as a payroll dump. Gorzelanny was expendable because of the number of starting pitchers in the system who they probably feel have more upside than Gorzelanny does.

I hope the pitchers, or the whole team for that matter, can stay healthy. The bullpen for one should be better if those penciled in are available to pitch.

Will this be the last move before spring training? I think it will be except for maybe non-guaranteed arrangements. Unless there are some spring training surprises, they look to have a thin bench in 2011.

by AboutTheCubs on Jan 18, 2011 10:43 AM CST reply actions  

Don't see why people are surprised at this trade

A couple of you wrote here that once Garz was signed, a pitcher would be moved for purposes of doing a little farm system restocking and at least one person said it would be Gorz. I would have preferred Zambrano. I thought Gorz was a pretty dang consistent lefty and I don’t think we over paid to get him. BUT…ho hum. Surely to goodness someone in scouting knows what they’re doing. Right?

"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know. " Abraham Lincoln

by cubfever7 on Jan 18, 2011 11:59 AM CST reply actions  

It was his density

I thought pretty much the same thing about this, cubfever7. It was inevitable that someone on the staff was going to be moved when Garza got signed. I liked Gorzellany, though the was a sturdy and reliable pitcher and he’s going to get a lot more playing time now. Will it give the Nats 22 more wins a year? Doubt it, but it can’t hurt them. The depth of the bullpen was too tempting to not use.

But it might it be the Cubs’ front office’s density. The spring will tell. Those prospects don’t sound too shabby.

Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..

coda

ELO, 1975

by cubnational on Jan 18, 2011 7:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Even though it was pretty obvoius he was going to be traded,

I don’t really like the deal. I don’t treally like most of the oh so numerous options we have for the rotation. Had the Cubs not promoted the whole Iowa roster to the Majors, most of the names talked in that context would have never been heard at MLB level, and rightfully so.

Looking from what we know today, Gorzo would probably have been a solid #5.
Our alternatives are Coleman, Cashner and Silva. I hope some of them turns out to be an ok #5, but it might just as well turn out they’re not. Throwing Russell (he’s a lefty!) and Shark (he’s expensive!) into the equation lets me fear we’ll have a rotation in mix&match mode, like our bullpen was last year.
And I think the chaos that causes has the potential to derail the whole team.
Not that I expect them to be on track for winning the division or something, but I think what we need for 2011 is a well-rehearsed, confident team with solid fundamentals.
Turning the #5 spot in a high speed rotation of its own doesn’t help that goal too much, even when there’s no real indication any of our options is likely to be better than Gorzo.

by DamageControlFreak on Jan 19, 2011 3:47 AM CST reply actions  

I don't like the move

So we traded him to save $2.1 million dollars? I would have paid all of Silva’s salary (except for $2.1 million) to get some team to take him off our hands, in order to keep Gorz rather than him. And I wouldn’t have asked for anything in return except for maybe some pine tar or chalk, or maybe some baseball rubbing mud.

Seriously, why trade Gorz instead of Silva? Wouldn’t any number of teams have taken him on for $2.1 million dollars? I’d guess the Yankees would have taken a chance on Silva at that price, that’s a rounding error for them. Even the Nats perhaps. Texas? Maybe Dayton Moore could have been convinced to spend a little of the newfound “Meche” money on Silva since he’s only signed for one more year and wouldn’t block any of his prospects. Something could have and should have been done to keep Gorz instead of Silva, I just don’t understand the logic of moving the younger, potentially better and cheaper pitcher for next to nothing prospect wise. If you’re getting nothing back anyway deal your trash instead of something potentially useful.

Just my $.02

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Robert McCloskey

by pageian on Jan 19, 2011 5:47 PM CST reply actions  

My guess

Silva doesn’t have much value if any. It could also be that they think they’re selling high on Gorz.

by ol Pete on Jan 20, 2011 8:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Exactly.

There were probably no takers on Silva. Cubs got a decent/intriguing hitting prospect for Gorzelanny and a couple more arms.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Jan 20, 2011 9:35 AM CST up reply actions  

i liked

gorz.a shame we had to trade him. unfortunately because of silvas salary we were pretty much stuck with him.

by NOMAR on Jan 22, 2011 9:11 AM CST reply actions  

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