What are Cub fans entitled to expect
by tharr on Jan 19, 2011 9:40 PM CST
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PrintThere is no doubt that everyone here WANTS the Cubs to win every year. Obviously that hasn't happened and isn't about to happen. And let's admit, many of those people are VERY knowledgeable fans. Now while I'll acknowledge that a baseball team can't be run by following populist opinions, there are few decisions made which draw 70%-80% opposition that end up well. So, whenever we're told we don't have all the so called "source" information and therefore we should merely be optimistic, it is met with much disagreement.
If a business has been successful for years, the stockholders are willing to accept the decisions of the Board of Directors. However, those same stockholders are unwilling to support a Board that is inconsistent. Unlike Cub fans, they can sell their stock or vote out the Board members. We Cub fans have no such options. Most of us are in for life.
The Cubs are a major franchise with very inconsistent results. Since 1984, whenever the team played .500 or better, only twice did their record improve the following year. Is that acceptable for us? If it seems many of us are unwilling to merely trust the people at the top, can anyone blame us? This franchise should never be in a position to accept a competitive team and a rebuilding process. And to suggest we should support the man in charge for 8 years who hasn't brought us more consistently winning teams seems unreasonable. The Cubs are still going into 2011 with a tinkered roster. That's factual. We'll probably be ranked to finish 4th. And while we may be better, why should this franchise be rated so low? This organization seems too willing to be good. Good isn't good enough. Only great is. As Quade has stated, the players will be held accountable. Likewise, we fans have every right to hold the organization to the same standard.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Consider that $110 million will go next year to Z, Sori, Demp, Aram, Dome, Byrd, Silva, and Pena
which, alone, is more than 24 of 30 team’s entire payrolls in 2010. I think that does a lot to provide context for what we should expect from the guys on this team. Incidnetly, I like the Pena deal, as well as the Soto resigning, because they are one year – they’re learning. The Garza deal is an even better sign, because he represents the solid, consistent players that can be had in the next tier down of salary and that will make us deeper. Incidently, Lilly and Lee accounted from another $26 million last year, and moving them was the start of reinventing how the Cubs sign contracts. my only rub is when people blame players for getting big contracts and make the straw man argument that they aren’t trying to play well – it’s more up to the people who give out the contracts to make sure they are spending wisely.
by DisCUBbobulated on Jan 19, 2011 10:30 PM CST reply actions
"Fuzzy" Math
Those guys will get paid $95.475 million in 2011, not $110. Still a big chunk of change, though. The price of tickets (which is directly correlated to the payroll) is the reason why Cubs fans are entitled to expect a good on-field product. Does any non-Yankee team have higher ticket prices than the Cubs? I think the Red Sox are close, but I’m not sure.
Depends on how you frame the question
The strident will tell you that the Cubs have the highest ticket prices in all of MLB, and they base it on this article. Take note that the math there only accounts for “non-premium” tickets, and the article states:
One important caveat in the numbers is premium ticketing. The Cubs’ have the smallest percentage of tickets (not including luxury suites or the team’s new PNC Club or Batter’s Eye club) classified as “premium” at just below 1 percent.
So the answer is: maybe, but we know the Cubs are close to the top no matter what.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Very true
As been discussed here many many many times it will be interesting to see attendence figures this year.
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
What will be most telling...
… is how sales go on the first day, Feb. 25. From 2004-2009, there was a mad rush for tickets that day. It was slower last year. I’d expect it to be slower still this year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
But in the end, if they still hit their typical 3M+ tickets sold number, does it really matter when they were sold?
and frankly, the key number in all of this is the ticket revenue number, not the number of tickets sold. If less tickets at a higher price results in greater ticket revenue, then I suspect mgmt will claim success – and it’d be tough to argue.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
My guess is that they won't sell that many tickets.
The team admitted at the convention that the higher price tickets are “subsidizing” the lower price games. But if those higher-price games don’t sell because of the prices, the revenue will go down.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Depends on how concessions and souvenirs
are affected. Like old man Wirtz (the really old one) used to say, “an empty seat doesn’t buy any beer”.
Just win the next game...!
maybe just a fuzzy source...
I got the information here . My math is pretty impeccable, if you ask me, but my source might be off too. However, I’m guessing you only added $14.5 million one time instead of one each for Demp and Dome.
by DisCUBbobulated on Jan 20, 2011 6:13 PM CST up reply actions
stop judging on previous results
there is new ownership in place and they are doing the job they are supposed to. This is their baby. stop telling them how to raise it. Think of how you would be running it if it was your business.
Everyone here wants quick results. It doesn’t work that way. I would love them to spend money like the Yankees but that’s not possible. This organization needs to fix its foundation first.
If you don’t agree with the team’s direction, you don’t have to buy tickets to watch them play. As far as I am concerned, i would not give out a grade until this years draft. In fact based on what they have done this postseason, i am satisfied.
by lakhania on Jan 19, 2011 10:37 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
The new ownership has retained the existing managment and strongly endorsed not only their process, but their results.
I don’t know how you can possibly make the statements in this post. “Stop telling the Ricketts how to run the Cubs” is just a silly statement.
And “if you don’t like it, don’t go to games” is equally silly AND counterproductive.
Cubs fans are very much entitled to judge management when they misallocate resources – especially when that misallocation is the result of management’s failure to appreciate the most effective means of rating players (and occasionally, outright disdain of these “new” statistics.)
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 20, 2011 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Where has new ownership endorsed results?
Where did you see Tom Ricketts say, “Wow, great! We won 75 games last year!”
Didn’t happen.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
They have endorsed Hendry's "philosophy" and decision-making process, and his ultimate decisions.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
True.
Hendry has two years left on his contract. I assume that if progress isn’t made in those two years, they’ll hold him accountable at that time.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
He can be fired tomorrow
It doesn’t make sense to me to keep someone on the payroll who probably makes less than $1M who is responsible for a $700M organization and has done a poor job. If that is the way Ricketts operates, we’ll never get to that elite status he promises.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Also
It was the old ownership that sold this teams future with back loaded contracts for short term gains. Every one knew it was going to come back to haunt us. Now we have to go through it.
Let me follow this theme
Included in the everyone is Hendry who gave out the contracts. But we should retain him as GM because he can’t fix what he broke. Is that your position?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Hendry gave out the contracts based on what he was told.
The ownership wanted to back-load the contracts. Not Hendry. Look at the moves he has made under new leadership. The only one which went bad was the signing of Grabow. and even that one can be redeemed. Byrd, Bradley dump, Garza, Wood, Pena are all good deals that improve the team.
Can you provide the tapes
supporting your conclusion? And I presume you’re also suggesting Bradley was forced upon Hendry. Maybe Shark’s contract was out of his hands also. Hell, if you try hard enough Hendry was simply a stooge for the real people who ran the team.
Finally, please check next year and notice what $10M bought us at 1B this year.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
by tharr on Jan 20, 2011 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Bradley was definitely NOT forced on Hendry.
That was a bad signing from day one.
And I’ll disagree with you on Pena — I think the Cubs got a pretty good 1B out of that.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Jan 20, 2011 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Let's just say we disagree on Pena
I hope you’re right and I have to eat my words but we shall see. $10M for him seems a great leap of faith for a team with a low chance of success in 2011. it’s one of the places I would have cut costs.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
The good part is the deal is only 1 year.
If it’s true what you say that we have a low chance of success in 2011, (to be fair, you’re probably right, but I choose to be an optimist until I actually see the team playing actual games in April) then I would much rather take a chance on a guy with a 1 year deal going into this year, as opposed to a year in which the Cubs are loaded and poised for a run at the World Series. Now, if Pena proves to be a good signing, as I believe he might, they can bring him back. If not, it will be peace out, and maybe next year they can afford to make a run at Pujols, who knows?
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Why do you need proof for something that can be concluded based on common sense.
Go back and see all the analysis of those trades on major publications during those times. You would know.
If i was Sam Zell and trying to increase the value of the team without paying for it, I would do the same thing. To make the financials look better, i need to increase the tix sales and the best way to do that is by improving the team with future owners money. you thing Sam Zell shelled out 300mill because he wanted to win? Bottom line: Its a business. You first priority is to make a profit on your investment.
If you want to conclude that Hendry wasn't involved, go ahead.
But Zell didn’t have a clue about baseball and would have had to suggest the players, terms and payroll. If you want to believe the GM of a team isn’t responsible for the deals, that’s a leap of faith I don’t accept.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Anyone who follows baseball at all could have forseen
that ~$5M to a mediocre, middle reliever would be ridiculous. Even for a good one, it was stupid.
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 20, 2011 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
i have provided links about this multiple times
where it was made known that Zell/Trib was “spengins someone elses money” with the backloaded contracts.
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Or what?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 19, 2011 10:57 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
You can hold them to any standard you want to
But every year 29 teams are going to be disappointed. The 09 team I found to be one of the most unlikable teams since I started watching them 25 ish years ago. If I had to hold each Cubs team to a standard I’d like…………………………………………………
I’d be a Yankee fan.
Being a Cubs fan means there will be suffering involved. I’ve tried more than once turning my back on them. It didn’t work.
They are when are you are single that ex that you wants you back and claims they’ve changed…. and you know they haven’t but you fall for it anyways. Then you remember why you broke up in the first place.
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 19, 2011 11:02 PM CST reply actions
So your suggestion is
don’t hold them to any standard?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Exactly
I realize my relationship with the Cubs is one sided. I love them.
When they got swept in 08 play offs, I took any Cub thing in my apartment and put it in my storage unit. Why b/c I expected them not to get swept.
What good did that do? The Cubs on the other hand got play off shares and likely back to their homes and enjoyed their off season.
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I assure you
that love them also. Nut because I care about them so much, I cannot be passive about their efforts to become a great organization. Flashes of brilliance aren’t sufficient for me. I want continued excellence. That means we must have an excellent organization run by people with good knowledge and high standards.
How many times have we been told that this or that manager will make us a winner. None of them made us great because the foundation has been terrible. Now we’re asked to wait longer because the new owners will make things better. Seems like I heard that story when the Trib bought the team..
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Of course we've heard the same story
I must admit sometimes it’s easier to be frustrated over the Cubs b/c it’s independent then real life things. It’s a nice diversion frustration.
As opposed to losing a job, dealing with family issues, or any number of things each of us have in our day to day lives.
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
Fans aren't frustrated because they didn't win the WS. They're frustrated b/c they make counterproductive decisions.
Every time this team pays $3M to a backup catcher, or spurns Carlos Beltran b/c they can pay Jeromy Burnitz half as much money, or decides that $20M would be better spent on 2 above-average players instead of one difference maker, the fans’ frustration is justified.
This management team is one of the longest-serving in MLB. This, despite the fact that their results have been middling at best.
This indicates that ownership either does not hold management to the same high standards as other organizations, or that ownership is happy with management b/c they’re applying a metric that is based on something other than on-field results (i.e., postiive cashflow generated year-to-year.)
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 20, 2011 9:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with your point
I mean, of course people can complain. Hell, complain about anything you please – personally I like to complain about how middle aged women can be fans of children pop-stars like Justin Bieber (CREEPY). I guess what I would hope we all get out of these dicussions about complaining is that a complaint backed up with facts and/or good logic without unnecessary rambling and reiteration is preferred. I think we all get tired of people continually trying to make their point on either side about a trade, management decision, etc.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
What Cub fans are "entitiled" to expect.
Nothing.
We choose to become, remain, or stop being fans. We can do so based on team performance or some other reason, whatever that may be for the individual in question. There is no entitlement here.
I’d personally like them to become more successful on the field, especially in the postseason. I believe they do as well.
Do I feel somehow entitled to that?
No.
Will life go on if they don’t?
Of course.
And my interest will likely wax and wane relative to their success, though again life goes on, and it’s not something they’re going to do or not do based on my feelings in the matter.
All that said, I’m glad spring training draws nearer every day.
by MN exile on Jan 20, 2011 5:25 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
the only thing we're entitled to
is our opinion.
We’re not entitled to winning. We’re not entitled to full transparency.
We’re entitled to our opinion and our feelings about the team. It would be tremendous if we got all the things each individual wanted out of the organization, but we’re not entitled to anything.
The sense of entitlement surrounding Cubs fans (we should compete every yr, etc) is one of the things that has annoyed me most in the last 5-7 years. Just because we spend more than others, doesn’t mean we’re entitled to more success. Just because we’re a bigger market doesn’t mean we’re entitled to more success.
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 20, 2011 8:05 AM CST reply actions 10 recs
Correct.
Plus, a new regime took over this team a year ago. While they have held over a lot of the previous regime, including the man everyone seems to want to bash (Jim Hendry), you cannot judge the results of new ownership after one year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I can judge effort
each and every day. While I am not naive enough to expect a championship franchise immediately, I have every right as a lifelong customer to demand accountability. If you’re willing to be passive, that’s your option. However, I will always dream of a Cub team that dominates. And that takes a better effort from the organization to be great. And it presumes owners unwilling to passively take their time while whining about finances.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
I believe the team is on the way to being that franchise that dominates.
You are expecting results in one year, as a stockholder would. Being a fan of a sports team, IMO, doesn’t work that way.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not so
Check my posts and you’ll find I have low expectations for the team in 2011. I recognize we have many holes to fill. And I was onboard for a reorganization of the farm system. Added scouts and instructors, willingness to buy costly draft picks with high upside.
However, I am not convinced Ricketts is willing to make the committment it will take to make this organization great. Personally, he seems like a great guy. But he has shown no evidence that his wallet doesn’t overrule his promises.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
You have the right to think that
But if you choose to feel that way….. there is going to be a lot of disappointment no matter what sports team you follow. B/c you have zero control of it. Do you enjoy watching/ listening to the Cubs during the season?
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
Doesn't the concept of "demanding" something imply that you're willing to take alternative action...
…if you don’t get what you demand?
So while I share in your frustration on many of the actions the Cubs take, I don’t understand what your intent is here. What are you going to do if you don’t get the level of accountability from the Cubs that you demand?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
You make an excellent point
To be honest, I have little recourse to effect my demands. I don’t live in Chicago so I can’t stop going to Wrigley. I won’t give up MLB.tv to watch the games. So I guess I’m stuck with trying to find all the bully pulpits I can and hope that the message reaches ears that have power to improve things.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
by tharr on Jan 20, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
you can only judge
what you can see. I submit you, I, and most other Cubs fans don’t see enough to be able to make informed judgments.
You pay for a ticket to go to a baseball game. The Cubs don’t work for you. They work for the owners, who don’t work for you either.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2011 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
Who DO the owners work for?
I haven’t finished my MBA, but I’m fairly certain that businesses “work for” customers.
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 20, 2011 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
they work for themselves.
The point is, there’s no chain of accountability between Alfonso Soriano or Koyie Hill to the average ticket holder. Even season ticket holders. You get tickets to see a baseball game. Winning isn’t implicit in that contract, only playing.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2011 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
Al,
This site is the first thing I check just about every day – I absolutely love reading all the opinions here, and think you have provided a tremendous outlet for what is in my opinion the premier place to go for Cubs discussion and information. Just my .02 on the post you made yesterday about the discourse on the site. When you say “If any of you feel I’ve come down too hard on you simply for disapproving of Cubs moves, I’m going to try not to do that. Criticism, when backed up with logical arguments and facts, is always welcome here.” I think what some people find fault with is when you say soon afterwards something like the above: “including the man everyone seems to want to bash (Jim Hendry).” Again, as people have pointed out, not everyone wants to “bash” him – a lot of us disagree with the moves he has made. Its not that a lot of us enjoy the fact we think he’s done a bad job. If he was doing what we considered a good job, I think most of the people would be praising him. Except for a FEW, not EVERYONE that like to complain regardless. Your insistent throwing out the idea of “everyone” suggests that the people with valid criticisms are just bitching. That’s not any fairer than people calling you out as a Cubs suckup (which I don’t believe you are). As we continue to try to have civil conversations and exchange intelligent opinions, maybe we can try to cease with the frequent jabs at people who disagree with your view.
by John916 on Jan 20, 2011 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
OK, maybe "everyone" was a little over the top.
Are you saying I can’t disagree with the people who disagree with me?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Of course you can
and should. That’s what makes this forum so lively and entertaining. Just saying that people who hold a differing viewpoint, even if its 100% of the time shouldn’t be lumped in as reflexive “bashers” and more than you should be labelled a reflexive apologist.
by John916 on Jan 20, 2011 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Being entitled to an opinion...
….means that fans are entitled to criticize Jim Hendry when, in the fans’ opinion, he misallocates resources and makes decisions that have ultimately hurt the Cubs on-field performance.
It’s not “bashing” Jim Hendry to criticize him for his occasional tendency to target (and spend heavily on) second-tier everyday players and to massively overpay bench players, in lieu of targeting and acquiring true difference makers.
When we see Boston do this every offseason, while spending only marginally more money, it gets to be incredibly frustrating.
You noted yesterday that Jim Hendry is one of the longest-serving GMs in MLB, and took that to indicate that he must be pretty good. I would counter that Hendry’s relatively long service time, coupled with his admittedly poor results and admittedly massive expenditures, would indicate either that the Cubs are not holding Hendry to a standard shared by other MLB clubs, OR that they aren’t necessarily evaluating him based on his on-field results.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 20, 2011 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Boston doesn't spend "marginally" more money.
Their payroll for 2010 was about 20% more than the Cubs’. I suspect it will be so again this year.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I see $168M vs. $145M. That's not 20%.
Honestly, that difference is more or less 1 extra top-dollar player.
I have no idea, but I also expect that their payroll will be substantially more than the Cubs this year as the Cubs scale back.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I don't really have a dog in this fight...
except to quibble that even based on your numbers, +/- 14% isn’t really a marginal difference, particularly when your base units are between $100 and $200 million dollars. That’s a lot of money.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Jan 20, 2011 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Well sure...
but we could just as easily pick a player who isn’t a bust. Or more usefully it can be a few players whose combined WAR is equal to a star, while filling multiple holes, and providing a team with much greater depth.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Jan 20, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
"A few players whose combined WAR is equal to a star" is how you build an also-ran.
The idea is to get the most WAR out of each roster spot.
Getting 7 WAR from your $20MM 1B is worth a whole heck of a lot more than getting 3 WAR from your $8MM 1B, 1.5 WAR from your $3MM RF, .8 WAR from a $2.4MM middle reliever, 1.2 WAR from your #5 starter, and .5 WAR from your 5th OF.
First, because the marginal value of each win vs. replacement from each roster spot is more valuable to a contending team. Secondly, because presumably, Team A with the 7 WAR 1B can also get some production better than replacement level from their own RF, middle relievers, #5 starter, and 5th OF.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I agree and disagree.
In general, you’re right that you want to maximize WAR per position. But for one, you’ve exaggerated what I was suggesting by spreading the money too thinly. If you assume that both the Red Sox and Cubs are equally efficient in their WAR/$$ spent (which is not true in real life, but for the purposes of our discussion lets pretend), then we might assume that for the first $148 million spent they’ll have roughtly equal lineup strength. Having an extra 14% allows the Red Sox to fill in peripheral needs, whether with 2 or 3 impact players or one higher WAR player. That makes a difference, particularly in a season as long as MLBs where a 2 game swing can determine who makes the playoffs. Anyway, the division of the extra 14% need not be not a parade of Willie Bloomquists, as you seem to imply I’m arguing.
While I agree in general with the point of maximizing WAR per position, there’s a limit to your logic. A team with Albert Pujols and 8 Brant Browns is likely not going to be a better team than one with a marginally lower WAR 1B and higher WAR 3B and LF. Why? Because there’s only so much one player can contribute to the success of a team because that player has a limited number of plate appearances per game with which to make a difference. As such you want to maximize your WAR per position so long as doing so doesn’t preclude your ability to field the other positions effectively.
by CubsWin!Oregon on Jan 20, 2011 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
It seems you are perfectly willing to accept
substandard effort. I’m shocked at your acceptance of being a C student. When Cub fans begin to stop demanding excellence, we will most probably receive average. Excellence begins with lofty goals and above average effort.
The next time you see Soriano stare down a single off the wall or Ramirez not run out a grounder, remind yourself that you’re not entitled to anything better. And the next time we see Koyie Hill grounding into a DP in the 8th inning of a tied game, remind yourself that the team chose him when better options were available.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Ummm
Hate to point it out but the Cubs have been C students for along time – and I mean ALONG TIME. I agree with demanding excellence, and going back to your original post I think the best way to demonstrate that is with ones wallet. I think we all can agree that Cubs ownership would have to be brain-dead not to recognize that people already are showing serious frustration by virtue of ticket sales, convention ticket sales, etc. But at the end of the day can we at least temper some of our complaints with a little dose of positivity?
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
i choose to accept reality
the Cubs aren’t going to get to being an A student without recognizing a lot of time and effort goes into becoming an A student. The cubs have been trying to “cheat” that (to keep consistent with your analogy) by taking short cuts (excessive FA spending) to getting there for short periods of time.
Holding the Cubs to an expectation of having to win immediately, without going through that process is only encouraging taking short-cuts. For the Cubs to be the kind of consistent winner that you feel you’re entitled to its going to take a significant amount of time and restructuring of the organization. It can’t happen overnight.
Again, I HOPE they do those things, but as a fan I’m not ENTITLED to them doing those things. I’m only entitled to my behavior and my thought process.
As far as effort goes, I hope that everyone in the world gives the best effort at their jobs, but i realize i’m not entitled to everyone in the world working at their highest efficiency. Same thing with results… Koyie Hill grounding into a DP is going to happen, by being a fan of the Cubs I’m not entitled to only positive results happening
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 20, 2011 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
the Cubs aren’t going to get to being an A student without recognizing a lot of time and effort goes into becoming an A student.
Absolutely correct. It is true, perhaps, that in the past that effort wasn’t given. It will take time to see if it’s being given now or in the future.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think there has been effort
over the past few years. After all, they did make the playoffs two years in a row very recently. This team has been better over the last five years than it has generally been in the past for any length of time. Does that mean I’m happy with where the organization is right now, or the failures to get to the World Series? No, but I think they have tried to get it done. Hendry has made some mistakes but he put a few pretty good teams together too; it isn’t his fault they choked at playoff time.
I do want a World Series badly; very badly, and find that when the team falls short, like last year, that I am far less forgiving than I used to be. I don’t think I would say I feel entitled though; I can always quit watching I guess. I do know that no matter how bad the season is going, I still enjoy each individual game and take some joy in each victory. That’s the difference between the Cubs and my other teams. My interest in the Cubs never wanes no matter how bad they are and I think that is why the failures hurt so much more with them.
Of course it takes time
I never suggested otherwise. And I never insisted I was entitled to wins. I have been talking about effort. And that’s where we seem to disagree. As long as i have skin in the game, I am entitled to effort. This isn’t a volunteer organization that doesn’t receive compensation. If you go to a restaurant and pay $100 for a meal, do you feel entitled to good food and service? Sure, you may get neither, but you have every right to feel entitled.
I understand that Hill may hit into a DP. I get that. However, I feel Cub fans are entitled to a better choice than Hill. So perhaps your sense of entitlement is lower than mine. i accept that. But I damn well won’t lower my expectations for excellence.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
restaurant analogy
I hope to get what i paid for, but if i don’t I recognize its not only a reflection on the quality of service i get, but a reflection on the quality of my decision-making, and furthermore i recognize my CHOICE as a consumer is to decide whether to hold them accountable through not participating in their business further
As a consumer of the Cubs you still have the choice to decide how you’d like to hold them accountable. You’re holding them accountable through higher expectations as opposed to cutting consumption.
I don’t live in Chicago and am not a season ticket holder. My consumption of the Cubs is through the MLB package which i can enjoy regardless of the Cubs success. Admittedly, I haven’t taken trips to Chicago since ‘08 to take in games, because of frustration with the team on the field, so perhaps i’ve decided to hold them accountable through cutting consumption, but its been mild.
We just choose to view things differently. You feel as a consumer you’re entitled to higher standards. I feel I’m only entitled to my opinion and can i only feel entitled to things i have control over, my decisions, my spending, etc.
To take the analogy further, if you kept going to a crappy restaurant repeatedly and not getting your monies worth is that your fault or the restaurants?
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jan 20, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry DCF
But I find your response nonsense. You’re trying to to dance around the responsibility that the Cubs owe to their fans. Caveat emptor has long ago been discarded as a defense. And to suggest that entitlement and choice are interchangeable just isn’t a valid defense.
But in essence, we do view things very differently. I believe I am buying a defective product. Unfortunately that product is the only one which meets my needs, ie, it’s the only baseball team I can follow so I choose to call upon the team to do much better. I am entitled to that from them. Obviously you do not and that’s OK with me. But no one can tell me I am not entitled.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
It surely is not the "only" baseball team you can follow.
To continue your restaurant analogy, if you don’t like this one, there are 29 others to choose from.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Are you suggesting
you could ever change from being a Cubs fan? If not, your suggestion was rather childish.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
No, I wouldn't change from being a Cubs fan.
But then, I don’t have the negative views you seem to have. You don’t seem to enjoy this very much. If you’re not getting any pleasure out of being a Cubs fan, why not go somewhere else?
Although of course I want what we all want — a World Series title — I can get pleasure out of being a Cubs fan even without that. Doesn’t seem like you can.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I think
That this is the main difference between a fan of a sports team and choosing not to buy/frequent another type of business. As most of us know, its not easy to change one’s allegiance to a team. If I don’t get good service from Menards, I have no problem going to Home Depot. But most of us can’t just choose to follow a different team. That’s what makes it so frustrating being a fan in general, and specifically one that continues to underperform. To make another bad analogy perhaps, its like having a child that doesn’t do well. You can’t just stop loving him/her and find another child to love. A sports team is more like a family member in terms of loyalty extracted from you, rather than just another business to frequent or not.
by John916 on Jan 20, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Edit - "Frustrating
being a fan in general, and specifically one to a team that continues to underperform."
Trying to work and post at same time.
I agree sort of
Your right it is like family. I’ve never met Ron Santo, I’ve listen to him for years and when I found out he passed away I cried. I’ve never before cried over anyone famous dying before. Nor have I ever even considered sending something. But we donated $10 to JDRF.
But we tend to forget this is a business.
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
North Dallas Forty
Every time I call it a business, you call it a game. And every time I call it a game, you call it a business.
The Tooz
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Think it goes too far to ...
even suggest following another team or changing allegiance.
I pointed out below the best way to voice displeasure without causing heartache for yourself is to stop going to games and buying merchandise, or at least curb that expenditure a notable amount, say 50%.
My analogy is the Blackhawks. They SUCKED for SEVERAL straight seasons. Worse than the 2010 Cubs, the 2006 Cubs or the 2002 Cubs. For a TEN YEAR span the ‘Hawks were a laughing stock. I canceled my ST’s, didn’t buy a sweater or anything. I still followed the team news and sort of knew what was going on. I simply dropped my financial investment nearly 100% and emotional investment 90%. I still wore my Blackhawks gold charm on my rope chain necklace, still do and have been over 30 years.
Think thousands of other ’Hawks fans did the same. United Centre was less than 25% full most games. Now? 108%
Just win the next game...!
Question.
If the Hawks don’t win the Cup again, or, say, even get bounced out of the playoffs in the first round, how many of the bandwagoners will jump off?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Um, I'd have to say 20-30%
But it’s a guess at this point. I base this on what I hear in the stands (I sit in a few different locations throughout the season) from game to game. It’s not too hard sometimes to figure out some bandwagoners.
I think there’s still plenty of us diehards that will easily stick by the team for several years as long as they continue to draft well and cultivate the farm well. The salary cap issues they created for themselves put them in a bind going into this season and perhaps even next; lot’s of variables still in play.
But I can see that if ‘11 doesn’t end too well and ‘11-’12 starts out rocky, the sellout streak will end just as easily as it started near the end of the ‘07-’08 season.
Just win the next game...!
Hasn't the
My country love it or leave it theme gone out of style. Perhaps I haven’t gotten so close to the team that I can objectively criticize them but that hardly diminishes my love for the team. When I coach basketball, I push my players to be greater than they conceive for themselves. When I taught school, I insisted the students reach for the stars. If i was as passive as you suggest, I could never forgive myself.
Perhaps I expect too much and you too little. Who knows.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
by tharr on Jan 20, 2011 11:54 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
rec'd
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
On your question, I sure hope it hasn't
It’s what made America great. But people still don’t have to go to games or buy stuff of whatever.
Don’t have to renounce your fandom but not going to games sure sends a message.
Just win the next game...!
You think WITH OUT A DOUBT
THAT THE CUBS OWE YOU SOMETHING. We get it.
But many of don’t agree with you.
You obviously aren’t going to change your mind b/c you feel very strongly about this. Fine.
But I think a variety of people brought of something interesting points why they don’t share your point of view.
Respect the fact that you aren’t going to change our opinions either.
This so far has been a civil thread discussing something interesting is it possible to keep it that way?
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I philosophically disagree with the assertion that the Ricketts owe "nothing" to Cubs fans.
The Cubs were around for a damn sight longer than the Ricketts’ involvement, and they’re going to be around for a lot longer after they’re all gone.
The Ricketts own the Chicago Cubs, but it’s not like a typical business and really can’t be discussed in those terms.
I wouldn’t argue that they should be allowed (or even that they are allowed) to, say, dissolve the team of their own accord, sell off the remaining player contracts and plant-property-equipment, and move on.
The fact is, the Ricketts are stewards of something that transcends their ownership of the team. They do owe a debt to the public, something akin to a non-enforceable fiduciary duty, to conduct their ownership of the franchise in a certain fashion.
Granted, the only way that this duty is ever enforced is through the MLB commissioner’s office invoking the “best interests” clause, or Congress holding MLB’s antitrust exemption over their heads in order to force some change it deems necessary.
But to be blunt, yes, they owe the public some baseline duty of care.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
So you think every owner of every sports team owes the fan base something in your opinion
What is the baseline duty of care with any team you expect from owners? Is what a Royal fan expect the same as a Cub fan? Or what about a Raider fan?
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions
I gave an example in my post.
They aren’t permitted to, say, unilaterally withdraw from MLB and join the Northern League. They aren’t allowed to stop playing games and refund tickets, even if they’re losing money or if ticket sales stink for a particular weekend. They aren’t allowed to do all kinds of things that business are generally permitted to do.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
So Cubs fans, Royals fan and Raiders fans
should expect the same things from their owners. No matter what the circumstrances then. All owners should ahere to these specific principles.
How do you plan on having the owners find these principles out?
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
Because if they start throwing games, they'll get in trouble?
The Cubs are bound by a large and unique set of rules that govern what they are and are not permitted to do with their MLB franchise. If they were to ignore those rules, MLB or the government would come down on them.
Basically, they’re required to try. All of the teams you listed. They aren’t required to succeed. Or even to try all that hard, as Pittsburgh has demonstrated.
But they can’t WWE it up and arrange a crushing loss followed by an epic comeback, just because it makes for a better story.
They aren’t even allowed to trade all their players away for nothing and replace them with a local beer league softball team, because the league would stop the transactions.
People in this thread who say things like “The Ricketts own the Cubs and can do whatever they want with the team” are ignoring the fact that the Cubs are not a typical business, and they’re governed by regulations and requirements and contracts and CBAs and associations that severely hamper the Ricketts “free will” w/r/t the team.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
The only things they owe
are to have a venue where fans are safe, they follow the rules of the league in which they play & obey the laws of the municipality where they play.
Those are the duties of care of which they owe, not a certain W/L percentage.
Just win the next game...!
brings back a line from Fever Pitch
when the guy was asked if the BoSox loved him back. I’m paraphrasing a bit but I think some of the folks truly believe the Cubs owe them something when in fact they don’t owe anyone squat.
Just win the next game...!
I have to disagree, Al...
I was born a Cubs fan. A pedigree, if you will. Not by choice, although I wouldn’t change it for the world. Mom and dad were HUGE Cubs fans. You can’t thumb your nose at family tradition. My oldest brother tried. He became a White Sox fan just to fit in with a couple buddies of his who were also fans. He sure looked lonely AND stupid eating Thanksgiving dinner off a TV tray in the garage. He learned…he eventually returned from the “dark side”.
Bitching is part of it. We are required to bitch. Management needs to hear people bitch. We owe it to the players that DO perform who CAN’T say “so and so sucks and I ain’t got a clue as to why he’s even playing”. We’re suppose to be heard. I believe fan opinion DOES make a difference. I, for one, hope Mike Quade listens. Lou didn’t. I think just outta pure spite.
Maybe Quade shouldn’t let the fan base set the line-up, but, just listen to what they’re saying. Some know what they’re talking about. Can’t hurt.
"I think part of a best friend's job should be to immediately clear your computer history if you die." - Anonymous
I wasn't really suggesting anyone stop being a Cubs fan.
But the OP said “this is the only team I can root for”. That is literally true, though of course being a Cubs fan is something we’re born to, most of us, and don’t have much choice in continuing.
We all want to be there WHEN the World Series is actually won.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
To be Frank...
the restaurant analogy doesn’t fit. You rarely eat at the same restaurant every time you go out. And you rarely pick more than one team as your first love
Just because you are having problem with your wife/GF doesnt mean you go out and find another one. Of course if the situation is hopeless, you breakup but they are not easy and you dont give up without a fight. Being Fan of a team is more intimate than picking a restaurant.
good post
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 20, 2011 9:32 AM CST up reply actions
DCF
+10000000
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
ding ding ding
DCF FOR THE WIN
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
You make it sound like [Cubs fans] people are sheeple ...
…and have absolutely no discourse.
If a business has been successful for years, the stockholders are willing to accept the decisions of the Board of Directors. However, those same stockholders are unwilling to support a Board that is inconsistent. Unlike Cub fans, they can sell their stock or vote out the Board members. We Cub fans have no such options. Most of us are in for life.
Wanna “sell the stock” or vote out the “board members”? Stop going to games, stop buying merchandise, stop going to the convention (that one already started). The other two may not be far behind.
It happened at 1901 W. Madison St and the straw that broke that camels’ back occurred 9/26/07 & started a string of positive events. While that team wasn’t quite nearly as close to going away like it was in the 50’s when the rest of the league propped it up, it was at the bottom of the barrel and rated THE WORST major league franchise of the big-4 sports. A regime change occurred (stock was already long since sold and then the board was dismissed) and less than 3 years later? Top of the NHL food chain.
The Cubs are a little different. The “Wrigley draw” is HUGE, but we did see the start of some sort of backlash not only by empty seats last season but raised tensions on public financing, ticket prices and a non-SRO convention. A couple more [contiguous] seasons of discontent and perhaps too the Cubs front office will see an overhaul. Might not even take that long.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Jan 20, 2011 8:26 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
but it's so much easier to just sit in front of your computer :)
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
Agree with the posts above
It’s a friggin sports team not General Electric, we don’t have ownership rights and therefore are entitled to nothing. Be nice if they won more and we can complain till our faces literally turn blue – but at that point it’s mostly a waste of time and energy. Personally I prefer an approach that keeps me on an even keel. That way I don’t seem like a whining child to my family and friends.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
by StevenABQ on Jan 20, 2011 8:32 AM CST via mobile reply actions
A good effort
from everyone in uniform (both teams, umpires, staff) every day. That’s it.
Usenet
Terry,
I’ll just note that just yesterday our old (and I do mean OLD) friend tks was lamenting the ever shrinking circle of friends that we have on the old Cubs Usenet newsgroup. We would all love to have you drop by for another visit.
Instead, why don't you invite all of them to join BCB?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I expect the Cubs to....
Have every intention of assembling a team that has a realistic chance to advance to the post-season year in and year out.
Will those results always happen? Unlikely. But, I expect that to be the goal every year.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
I'm glad there are post like this
If it keeps someone from going postal at work, vent away.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 20, 2011 12:33 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
where did your quote come from?
''"I always thought I was the most competitive person out there. I never thought I'd find anybody more competitive until I met him.'' Ryan Dempster talking about Ted Lilly
by Madison Cub Fan on Jan 20, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
The "Easy on the words, brother,'' quote?
I read it in the Tribune the day after Quade’s introduction as manager – Here
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 20, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
That statement is both factually and philosophically incorrect.
The Cubs are not entitled to do whatever they want with their business. Nor should they be.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Sure they are and if the F--- it up
they go out of business.
Now of course that is the extreme but in the spirit of the title and theme of this post, the fans are not entitled to anything.
Just win the next game...!
No, they wouldn't go out of business.
That simply would not happen.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Yes, because MLB wouldn't let them and ...
as I stated its extreme. But the point of this whole post is what are the fans entitled as far as wins and losses go. And that answer is, “nothing”. You don’t have to swear off the team forever, renounce your fandom or be like one of those nut-jobs that burned a DeRo jersey after they got swept by the Dodgers in ‘08. Just don’t go to the games. Don’t buy any Cubs stuff.
We stayed away from United Centre in droves for 10 straight seasons when the ‘Hawks SUCKED big time. Far worse than anything we’ve seen [10 straight season] with the Cubs for half a century. The UC was less than 25% full for most games. It was the Mausoleum on Madison. And it eventually took “Dollar Bill” Wirtz passing to accelerate changes. Completely revamped front office, philosophical changes on the draft and the minors, etc. Now the ’Hawks play to an average 108% of capacity.
Just win the next game...!
Are the Cubs allowed to throw games? Are they required to make at least a token effort to win?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Allowed? Required?
Allowed to throw a game? No. Just go out there and play with total indifference? Yes, until there’s changes.
Required to make a token effort? Perhaps on the surface. But that’s based on the definition of the viewer/attendee.
Just win the next game...!
they absolutely are
entitled to do whatever they want. The team is owned by the Ricketts family. It’s theirs. You pay for a ticket to a ball game. You don’t pay for wins, or a world-series. The product is getting to watch the game.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2011 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
No, they aren't.
Do you really think that they can “do whatever they want”?
Their ownership of the Cubs is subject to all kinds of restrictions that don’t apply to typical businesses. The Commissioner Of Restaurants doesn’t get to overrule Mitchells’ when they change the menu.
Your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th sentences, which are factually accurate, have absolutely nothing to do with your first, which is not.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
that's because
the teams operate in an association — almost like subsidiaries of a larger corporation, ie, MLB. You’re being pedantic.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jan 21, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
The Cubs are not even allowed to throw games.
They are required, by law, to at least make an effort.
If this was a straight up business – even a “sports entertainment business” like the Harlem Globetrotters or WWE, they could throw as many games as they wanted, if that meant more profit.
If you think that the Cubs can “do whatever they want”, you’re kidding yourself. If they tried to trade away every good player and save money, the commissioner would step in. If they threw a game, the government would step in.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
you're continuing
to be pedantic. This is about what the Cubs theoretically owe the fans, not the rules of operation for MLB teams.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jan 21, 2011 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
No, this is a response to your premise "The Ricketts are entitled to do whatever they want with the Cubs."
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
"pedantic"?
oh man, that’s rich. That’s Soriano rich.
Too funny…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
You know what I'm entitled to?
A better daily Chicago Cubs desktop calendar.
Thursday, January 20 Trivia
Which pair of Cubs infielders both attended Louisiana State University and were named to the 2000 College World Series all-tourament team?
COME ON MAN!
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
Siskel and Ebert?
No, wait. Rogers and Hammerstein!
Dangit. Starsky and Hutch? Ponch & John? Crockett and Tubbs!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Jan 20, 2011 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
I'll take Starsky and Hutch for $200, Alex.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 20, 2011 6:42 PM CST up reply actions
Best Double Play team, Ever!
Sraskey to Hutch to Huggy Bear!
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 21, 2011 9:06 AM CST up reply actions
we are entitled to entertainment
good or bad, baseball and the Cubs are an older version of “reality tv” and we watch it to be entertained. we may not agree with the outcome, but that is part of the reality of it
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
"Are you not entertained?!!"
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 20, 2011 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Cub fans should expect to win a championship at least once every 100 years!!!!
To not want anything less is moronic….
The owners and everyone on down should also expect the same thing. If they are not aiming for this, they should find something else to do!
This is a very interesting discussion....
and I comliment everyone involved. This has been a fun read. If I may offer an opinion on the notion that Cub fans are entitled to nothing from the Cubs organization. In a legal sense, that’s true. To use an example, there was a season ticket holder of a team (it escapes me now which team this guy was a fan of, but I remember reading about it online) who tried to sue the team for services unrendered, on the grounds that he was paying to watch Major League Baseball, and the team was so pathetic that he actually tried to make a case that the service he was receiving as a paying customer did not constitute Major League Baseball. I swear I’m not making this up. But needless to say, the guy was more or less laughed out of court. So we know that in terms of being owed something, as fans, we have no legal rights to anything at all. From a legal standpoint, it’s up to us to find happiness within ourselves regardless of what goes on on the field.
When we leave the realm of legal-speak, however, let’s look at the relationship between the Cubs and their fans from a humanistic point of view. I am a third generation Cub fan, and I’m sure there are people my age who are fourth or even, dare I say, fifth generation Cub fans. Mathematically, at least it’s possible to be a fifth generation fan. The point is, if Cubs ownership and front office people truly understand what Cub fans are all about, and I believe they do understand it, then if they have any blood in their veins at all, I would hope that they feel like we deserve a world championship with the unconditional support that we have levied on the team for our entire lives. The word “entitled” is a strong word, and I’m not going to go down that road. But I feel like if any group of fans in sports history has ever deserved a world championship, it’s Cub fans. And I would at least hope that those in a position of power with the Cubs would feel some sort of MORAL obligation to give 100 percent effort to win it all. Because I feel very strongly that Cub fans deserve that. Some people may have a problem with this point of view, and that’s OK. But I believe that all Cub fans do deserve to know what it feels like to win the World Series. Because I feel an obligation to all my deceased friends and relatives who lived long, full, happy and successful lives, but never saw that dream happen. I owe it to them to keep pressing on and carry the torch for as long as I’m here. Maybe that’s cheesy and too touchy-feely, but that’s the way it is.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
by ctcoff99 on Jan 21, 2011 6:28 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
And I would at least hope that those in a position of power with the Cubs would feel some sort of MORAL obligation to give 100 percent effort to win it all.
Every single person I know in the Cubs organization feels this way.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
so we are to take your word
can you get them to all come and post that they are?
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
or at least go on a sports radio talk show and say they are? ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I find it funny that you ask this question.
As a fan, you are entitled to be a fan, or not be a fan.
Fans:
*Cheer for their team.
*Discuss their team.
*Disagree with management/decision makers.
*Dream for their team.
*Pay attention to their team.
Your not entitled a “return on investment.” This isn’t the stock market.
Your not entitled to be hateful towards players/coaches/decision makers.
Basically, you are not entitled to anything except for your fandom that you choose to be a part of, or choose to not be a part of.
I just want to win...
by bilbosbuttons on Jan 22, 2011 4:35 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
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