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Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Found this series by Razzball.com the other day and found it interesting. Keep in mind that this is from a Fantasy Baseball blog, but the evaluations that are done here are very unique. Here are the author's criteria:

1) Career Excellence - Career WAR
2) Peak Excellence - Did he dominate a few peak years?
3) Hall of Fame Position Representativeness - Has a player been top ten at his position over the past 60 years.

Thoughts?

over 1 year ago Ali_liston_tiny IowaCubs- 23 comments 0 recs  | 

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Ron Santo qualifies under all three criteria.

… and has since he retired.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 3, 2011 1:02 PM CST reply actions  

Yep...

that man shoulda went in on eligibility year #1.

Can this off season get any worse?

by Easy Ed on Jan 3, 2011 3:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I found the graphic on Alomar eye opening
Roberto Alomar’s sterling defensive reputation is not backed up by advanced defensive statistics.

Name # of Gold Gloves Rfield
Roberto Alomar 10 -32
Ryne Sandberg 9 +60
Bill Mazeroski 8 +147
Frank White 8 +121
Joe Morgan 5 -47
Bobby Richardson 5 +15
Craig Biggio 4 -71
Bret Boone 4 -39
Bobby Grich 4 +83
Orlando Hudson 4 +23

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jan 3, 2011 4:32 PM CST reply actions  

Sabermetrics...

woulda probably denied alot of HoF players. That’s why sabermetrics suck. See the ball, hit the ball, catch the ball, throw the ball…that’s all that matters. Do it well enough and go to Cooperstown.

Can this off season get any worse?

by Easy Ed on Jan 3, 2011 4:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Easy to say that if sabermetrics aren't well understood

This is unfortunately the case with many people who decry sabermetrics.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Jan 3, 2011 8:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not a big stat guy, as you know.

But I think both advanced metrics and other, less tangible, factors, can and should be considered for HoF voting.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 3, 2011 9:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm definitely a numbers guy

I also believe that it is important to evaluate new evidence and consider it when deciding a case. Traditional stats count for something. Intangibles also count for something. Numbers may not tell the whole story at face value, but must be placed in their proper context. We have records to see where players generally batted in the batting order, how much run support per game a starting pitcher received, how effective a reliever was at converting saves, how much a player’s running and defense impacted the game, etc.

Where my evaluation begins is seeing if perception (my eyes) matches reality (hard numbers). If perception matches reality, this is an easy test. If perception does not match reality, the harder evaluation begins. Where intangibles can enter the argument is a question of what sort of impact said candidate has on the history of the game. This is why I back Lee Smith’s candidacy despite a less than stellar career WAR and ERA. I still feel that Andre Dawson and Jim Rice were not BBWAA mistakes despite low OBP. I’m a late convert to the candidacies of Trammell and Murphy, thanks in part to examining their cases through the lens of advanced metrics.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Jan 3, 2011 10:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Santo's numbers speak for himself

On those alone he should be in the HOF. But on top of it all, Santo was a man who loved what he did, who he played for, and wasn’t afraid to show it on and off the field. Not al players were as passionate as him and many were out there just to collect a paycheck.

"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck

by Musicdude10 on Jan 4, 2011 12:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Santo is a good example of a player who passes both tests

Oddly enough, some people did not vote for Ron Santo because of a mistaken view that a team could only have so many Hall of Fame players on its roster. Given that the 1969 Cubs didn’t even win their division, some feel that Jenkins, Banks, and Williams are more than enough representation for that team. It’s a faulty opinion, but there are a few teams underrepresented like the 1959 White Sox, the 1984 Detroit Tigers, and the 1884 Providence Grays.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Jan 4, 2011 10:17 AM CST up reply actions  

You mention the 1959 White Sox.

Who else besides Aparicio and Wynn belong in the Hall from that team?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 4, 2011 10:32 AM CST up reply actions  

More than Aparicio and Wynn made Cooperstown

Nellie Fox and Larry Doby were also members of the 1959 White Sox that are in Cooperstown. Billy Pierce isn’t an egregious Cooperstown omission, but he still makes my cut.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Jan 4, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

Forgot about Fox.

Doby, too — he played 21 games there finishing his career and didn’t play in the WS.

Pierce — I dunno. Pierce’s top comps are Vida Blue and Mickey Lolich — very good pitchers, but not Hall of Famers. He seems comparable to Rick Reuschel, too.

Another member of the Hall of Very Good.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 4, 2011 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't put a lot of stock in similarity scores

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Jan 4, 2011 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Why not?

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 4, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Go through the breakdown

It appears to act more like a standardized test score than actually evaluating players more analytically. This is something I feel that the more advanced metrics are capable of doing, whereas similarity scores don’t.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Jan 4, 2011 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I grant you...

… similarity scores aren’t the be-all and end-all of comparing players. They do give you a good general idea of “who is this player most like”.

In Pierce’s case, almost all of the comps are from the HoVG. I’m not sure I’d have put Catfish Hunter in the Hall of Fame, either.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 4, 2011 4:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Ditto on Catfish

Catfish is like Morris in the regard that they played for good teams and received above average run support per start. Neither were especially spectacular. Pierce was still better than either pitcher and his peak lasted longer. Whether that matters or not is more of an instance of opinion. I consider him borderline and thus is not someone I’d consider to be an egregious omission. I would not, however, view him as a mistake if he were elected by the VC someday.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Jan 4, 2011 6:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Hunter...

… I think got in with the five straight 20-win seasons and all the big games he had in the postseason with the A’s.

"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

by Al Yellon on Jan 4, 2011 10:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Catfish Before My Time, But...

I can see the argument made for him based on peak value. He threw a perfect game, won a Cy Young, and had those five straight 20-win seasons you mentioned. He did win the clinching game of the 1978 World Series for the Yankees in addition to his postseason exploits with Oakland. Though, after 1975, he wasn’t the same pitcher for the Yankees.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jan 5, 2011 11:12 AM CST up reply actions  

What about small market players?

If you read the author’s post today, you’ll see that there’s a pretty big case to be made for Tim Raines induction. Unfortunately, the dominating years that he had with 7 years of 6 WAR or more go relatively unnoticed in Montreal. The years that people remember are the declining years on the South Side and in New York. Sabermetrics absolutely must be considered when evaluating HOFers.

Perception doesn’t necessarily match reality.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jan 4, 2011 9:32 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm not disagreeing with you here

I take intangibles into account due to historical context, but the author was correct about Jeff Bagwell. He’s also correct that Houston is a great place to have an exceptional, yet anonymous career. The same could be said of a lot of small market locations.

Being a scientist, my approach in life is to evaluate new information and consider it. If there is new evidence that forces me to re-evaluate my views on an issue, then I do it. Sabermetrics provides great tools for that sort of thing when evaluating Hall of Fame cases for baseball players. It’s why I’m a late convert to the case of Alan Trammell. For that matter, the same could be said of my support for Dale Murphy, Bobby Grich, Darrell Evans and Lou Whitaker.

RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).

by Ace Venom on Jan 4, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Facts

woulda probably denied alot of HoF players. That’s why facts suck.

by Wreckard on Jan 4, 2011 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Wow! on Alomar's Defense

I always thought he was a LITTLE overrated on defense, but I never thought of him as being a minus second baseman after the first part of his career in San Diego. My eyes must have deceived me watching him play second base. While I never thought Biggio was anything special defensively at second base, I didn’t think of him as a minus second baseman either. I thought he was okay there.

"The big possums walk late." - Harry Caray

by memphiscub on Jan 5, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

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