Matt Garza Traded To Cubs For Chris Archer, Hak-Ju Lee, Others
by Al Yellon on Jan 7, 2011 9:30 AM CST
in Chicago Cubs News
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PrintAs reported by Bruce Levine at ESPN Chicago, the Cubs have acquired Matt Garza from the Rays in an eight player swap:
The deal, which has been agreed to pending physicals, sends right-handed pitcher Chris Archer, outfielder Brandon Guyer, catcher Robinson Chirinos, shortstop Hak-Ju Lee and outfielder Sam Fuld to Tampa for Garza, a minor-league pitcher and a minor-league outfielder.
On the surface, I like this deal. Some thing Garza isn't worth that package -- but remember, Chirinos and Guyer are older and likely backups. Essentially, it boils down to Lee and Archer for Garza. Garza is 27, has playoff and World Series experience and has remained healthy throughout his career.
Archer and Lee may become good major league players, but they aren't yet. And Fuld will likely make the Rays, where he might not have made the Cubs' roster.
There's some information on the Cubs' new spring training complex that I had in this post originally; it's now after the jump.
It was reported this morning that the city of Phoenix is working on a deal to keep the Milwaukee Brewers in the spring training complex in Maryvale (a western area of the city of Phoenix) that they have inhabited since 1998.
So I thought this would be a good time to give an update on what's going on with the Cubs' new spring complex, for which funding was approved by voters in Mesa in November.
The timeline lays out something like this: the Cubs are currently accepting proposals from various architects and should choose one in the next couple of months for the complex that will be built near the intersection of Loop 101 and Loop 202 in Mesa. Ground will be broken later this year. One thing the Cubs do not want to do is to rush things; this is what happened with Camelback Ranch for the White Sox and Dodgers, resulting in a decided lack of access roads and a mess getting out of the parking lot, or what's happening with the new Diamondbacks and Rockies complex on tribal land near Scottsdale -- they are literally working 24/7 to get that complex finished in the next six weeks so it can open on time.
So, the Cubs will spread out construction through 2012 and the first part of 2013. Then, they will open their offices and rehab and workout facilities during the 2013 season, and play the AZ Rookie League season and some Arizona Fall League games there during 2013 to work out any problems that may exist.
And then the first spring training games will be played there in March, 2014, so the Cubs will remain in Ho Ho Kam Park for this year and two more seasons.
After that, the city of Mesa will negotiate to have another team move into Ho Ho Kam (with Fitch Park as their minor league base). Since the Brewers are likely to be staying in Maryvale, speculation has centered around bringing one more team west from a Florida training base -- something officials in both Arizona and Florida wouldn't mind, because that would give them an even number of teams in both states (16 in Arizona, 14 in Florida). Possible candidates for a move West include the Blue Jays -- there are many thousands of Canadians who live in or winter in Arizona -- and the Twins, who would have essentially the same length flight from Minneapolis to Phoenix or to Ft. Myers. Both teams have contracts that expire around the time Ho Ho Kam would be available. Even the Washington Nationals have been rumored to be considering a move to Arizona for spring training; they'd be the first East Coast based team to train there since the Red Sox left after 1965.
The Cubs have not yet announced pitcher and catcher reporting dates but according to this page, it will be somewhere between Feb. 14 and Feb. 19 -- around 40 days from now. Can't come soon enough.
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as good as garza is..
and can be in the national league..i dont know if its worth trading 3 of our top 10 prospects (including our #1) for Garza. I’ m a huge Garza fan from when he was with the Twins, and I loved seeing him pitch against the other AL east teams i hate so much, but I don’t think that trading Archer and Lee are worth it.
"Slump ? I ain't in no slump. I just ain't hittin." --Yogi Berra
Jim Hendry hasn't learned a g-- d--- thinv
If this is true. Once again he is overpaying for a B+ player on a non-contending team. Except this time instead of spending Tribune dollars he is spending prospects including our prospect with the best chance of becoming that homegrown top of the rotation starte we have coveted for so long. All for a guy that is not much of an upgrade over what we already have in our rotation. At the end of the day, even with Garza the Cubs are likely a 4th place team.
This is Juan Pierre 2.0. Fire Hendry tomorrow.
by JSB on Jan 7, 2011 9:42 AM CST via mobile reply actions 7 recs
He's a horrible GM.
I just can’t believe that the Ricketts decided to keep him on. Time to reap the whirlwind, you stupid, stupid billionaires.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
He's a bad GM.
I’m still holding out hope that a detail or two that is yet to be released takes the sting off losing Archer.
Like Longoria or Price was included?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
The Ricketts are clueless
I was in favor of cleaning house at the end of the season, but I was willing to give Hendry a second chance to prove that his terrible moves were a result of the Tribune win-now mandate rather than the fact that he is a terrible strategic GM. This trade (assuming it is as reported) is the last straw.
What an f-ing joke. And the fact that it’s the Rays makes me even more mad. I trust their scouting department 1000x more than I do ours. The fact that they asked for Archer means he will probably be better than Garza by next year. Chirinos will be their back-up catcher the year and I bet Guyer makes their roster as a 4th OF.
Oh, and Lee will probably figure out to hit. Just our f-ing luck.
by JSB on Jan 7, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It seems it's trades like this that have kept the Cubs out of the world series for 65 years.
Trade the potential stars of the future for something we have in spades.
Yes'm
i totally agree..
Garza is good…and he was great pitching against the tough competition for the American League. And he would probably do spectacular pitching against weaker national league teams..but I believe that Archer can be just as good if not better if we keep him and continue to develop him.
side note: Archer wasn’t home grown, he came from the Indians’ farm system…but close enough :) lol
"Slump ? I ain't in no slump. I just ain't hittin." --Yogi Berra
Archer wasn't homegrown - he came over from Cleveland in the DeRosa deal
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Too much
If those are the players involved, that is too much. 2011 is a lost cause. Don’t trash our farm system for a player that will not make a difference this year.
2011 is only a lost cause to people with a loser mentality
I’m glad Hendry doesn’t share that with you.
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
by bluemagic9 on Jan 7, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Well sh*t then, by all means, acquire some more #2-3 starters!
If we acquire enough players who are slightly above average, we’re guaranteed to compete with elite talent! Quantity over quality always wins the day.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
The correct line is
In your mind you know you’re right even if you’re not.
Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr
by bubbamike the one and only on Jan 7, 2011 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
agreed.
The cubbies lost 27 one run games last year with the horrible pitching they had from certain players and with lee playing the way he did. take away half of those and turn them into wins then were over a .500 team. No doubt adding Garza would keep us in the hunt, but we can still compete with the roster and system that we have…considering we add a veteran free agent (i know there aren’t many left out there) to either fill the 5th spot or make spot starts.
"Slump ? I ain't in no slump. I just ain't hittin." --Yogi Berra
We have more than enough guys to be #5
The pitching staff is the least of this team’s problems. Again. I know everyone wants that Phillies rotation, but it’s not possible, and finding additions to a staff that was second in the NL in quality starts for a bunch of backups and one top prospect is a win.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Jan 7, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
There has got to be more pieces
That price for Garza is way too much. I like Garza but that is flat ridiculous. hopefully we are getting some pieces back also.
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
i would much rather
give them carpenter and vitters in the deal..although i’m sure the rays aren’t looking for a drafted out of high school 3rd basemen whos been barely more than questionable since he turned pro.
"Slump ? I ain't in no slump. I just ain't hittin." --Yogi Berra
Hendry apparently has no negotiation skills
And the Rays no that Vitters will never have a BB% over 5.0 and that Carpenter is best-suited to be a reliever.
by JSB on Jan 7, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
On it's face I think it's too much.
However, I am not going to jump off the ledge without knowing ALL the details of the trade.
We've been waiting to see the rest of the plan with Hendry for 8 years. What you see is what you get.
If I had a nickel for every time I’ve read “surely this can’t be it, Hendry must be up to something else” in this forum, I’d have something like 55 cents.
It would be sweet if there were someone else coming back to the Cubs. Maybe a someone who could play 2B while swinging a MLB-level bat.
But I am not holding my breath that this GM even notices that “someone else” is needed.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I'm no Hendry apologist
In fact I think he is a below average GM. Where I think he has been slightly above average is in his trades. Obviously everyone points to the Juan Pierre trade as a colossal fail, but other than that, I would say he has done well in trades.
Obviously I view his ‘non-trade’ GMing as definitely below average. I would have approved his firing at the end of the season, but alas TR must have lost my number.
Let me see if I'm getting this.
We’d go from a non-contender with a top 10 farm system… to a non-contender with a top 20 farm system.
Getting Archer in the DeRosa trade was sneakily one of Hendry’s best moves… and now he wants to piss it away by shipping Archer off right as he became our top prospect?
I’ve always thought the ‘Fire Jim Hendry!’ brigade was a little obnoxious. But hot damn, if it goes down like it’s reported, they may have a new recruit.
by Schwa on Jan 7, 2011 9:51 AM CST reply actions 9 recs
Yep
I was willing to give him a second chance. But this is it. He refused to break the prospect bank for Adrian Gonzalez and Zack Greinke, and now he is doing it for Garza?
And the Ricketts don’t get off so easy either. I don’t doubt that they were more willing to let Hendry trade for Garza because the money he is due in 2011 is less than what is owed Gonzalez or Greinke. Those cheap m-fers have done nothing but hurt the franchise since they have taken control.
by JSB on Jan 7, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm not sure about the blame for the Ricketts. There's too much going on behind the scenes there for me to figure out.
And do we really know Hendry wasn’t willing to break the bank for Gonzo/Greinke? It’s highly possible that the Cubs’ offers in those deals simply wasn’t as good as what SD/KC got. You never know.
But that doesn’t really matter to me. What does matter is depleting the farm system for a good, solid pitcher in a year in which contending seems like a longshot.
Garza is due to make more
than Gonzalez – I think that non-trade had more to do with the Padres contempt for the Cubs
That right there is the most telling part.
If we’re willing to give up our absolute top prospect as well as another top 10, why the hell weren’t they in a package for Gonzalez?
I’ve been saying Hendry is a moron for years. I wish he’d stop giving me more ammo
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Maybe they were and the Padres preferred the Red Sox offer.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Latest report from Levine
says “upwards of eight players” could be involved in this deal.
Hey, how about waiting until the deal is actually finished and we know who’s in it before blasting Hendry?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Agreed
Hey, if the deal stinks, I’ll be glad to say it. But at this point it doesn’t.
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
No waiting at the bashing table
It’s an all-you-can-eat buffet.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 7, 2011 9:56 AM CST up reply actions
Loud, sustained applause.
Reading all these “the sky is falling” posts every time a rumor is reported, has led me to not frequent the sight as much as I used to.
I understand everyone wants to be the first one to say ‘I told you so’ and can point to the timestamp on their overreaction of a post….but it is irresponsible and more than annoying.
Well the sky is falling
But that’s a Global Warming issue and/or a Nicolas Cage movie. I can’t blame Jim Hendry for that. Yet.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 7, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
Keep looking.
I’m sure you’ll find something to blame him for.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
So when you posted the currently rumored deal...
were we all supposed to say: ‘Interesting. I will not comment or voice an opinion until everything is 100% official’?
No. You posted that in hopes that we would discuss the deal as it’s currently reported. As it is CURRENTLY REPORTED, it’s a terrible move for the Cubs.
If it goes down as some huge 8 player deal? Maybe it will be a different story.
by Schwa on Jan 7, 2011 10:02 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Sheesh.
What would it have taken for this discussion to NOT turn into Hendry-bashing?
So far, this is only a rumor. It’s OK to bash Hendry based on the first rumor, but when I post another link that says more players are involved, it’s still OK to bash Hendry?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This is more than a rumor.
This is almost certainly going to happen now. But it’s unclear what will happen, so it’s a bit early to hang Hendry.
And I’m a pretty ardent critic of the guy.
...
If it goes down as some huge 8 player deal? Maybe it will be a different story.
I fully acknowledge that if the pieces change, this might not be a bad move. But as it’s currently reported, as YOU posted for us to discuss, I don’t think it makes much sense. Hendry’s the man making the deal, who else should shoulder the blame?
What would it have taken for this discussion to NOT turn into Hendry-bashing?
Not trading our top prospects for a non-elite player?
by Schwa on Jan 7, 2011 10:09 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Our top prospects
are not elite either..! Until last year Archer was not in out top 10!. They are just prospects! Tell me the last time we traded a prospect who became an elite player.
Only way to find out if they're elite is to keep them in the system and work with them over time.
Or watch Ricky Nolasco light it up for the Marlins.
What about Dontrelle Willis?
He had a few good years after he was traded to the Marlins.
True
but he had an elite season.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
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"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 7, 2011 6:42 PM CST up reply actions
Patterson?
Really? he never had a season close to a 6 WAR season like Willis had.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 8, 2011 2:14 AM CST up reply actions
Everyone bashing Hendry here has praised most of the off-season
This isn’t some reflexive Hendry-bashing by any means. We have all said what we thought would be an acceptable price for Garza. Hendry went FAR BEYOND what any of us imagined we would have to give up to get Garza.
Why are you surprised we are angry?
Your link no longer says 8 players are involved.
It says Archer, Lee, Chirinos and Fuld for Garza and 2 minor leaguers.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Honestly, if Archer is involved at all, Hendry should be criticized.
We know what Garza is. He’s a middle of the rotation guy for a good rotation.
We have LOTS of that guy.
What we don’t have is a difference making elite pitcher. I don’t know if Archer will be that guy.
But there’s a decent chance that he could be. And that’s worth more than Matt Garza.
And then when you throw in Hak-Ju Lee, it goes from bad to infuriating.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 6 recs
Agree 100%
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jan 7, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
Garza is a 200 IP, 3.80 ERA guy /in the AL East/
In the NL Central he’s likely to be a 200+ IP, 3.50 ERA guy. That’s a really good, yes difference-making pitcher. And we have him for three more years of his prime.
And with the Cubs’ record at developing homegrown players, you really want the uncertainty of Hak-Ju Lee (.375 SLG in the low minors this year) and Chris Archer (“good” pitching prospects are famously unreliable) over the assuredness of Matt Garza? Garza is the kind of player the Cubs should be trying to develop and we’ve got him ready made for something like 10 million a year. This is exactly the sort of move a big-market club should be making.
So in other words....
DUDE! YOU’RE GETTING A GARZA!!!!!
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 7, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't tell them that, cf,
it ruins their adolescent, you-be-the-GM fantasies about “rebuilding.”
I think it’s a good deal, for now and for the future. As I was told earlier today, this also makes Zambrano more expendable.
Another nice move by Hendry.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Wait, so the reason Z hasn't been traded is because the Cubs don't want to?
And it has nothing to do with his huge contract?
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
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I LOVE THAT SONG!!!!!!!!!!!!
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"They played like son of a guns......lord have mercy." Mike Quade
So the Cubs are giving up Brett Jackson and Trey McNutt too?
In all seriousness, all of my Hendry-bashing posts have said “if true….”. If the Cubs get some good prospects back from the Rays, then this deal might not be so bad.
The Wittenmeyer report I saw just had these 5 players in it though.
really?
can you post link for that article?
"Slump ? I ain't in no slump. I just ain't hittin." --Yogi Berra
Al's link now says Archer, Lee, Chirinos and FULD for Garza + 2 minor leaguers.
So, it’s getting better?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
FWIW
The 11AM (EST) update has taken out the 8 players part.
As for the “blasting”… you, as well as most of us, trust Bruce.
And even if there were other parts… that means bit players and or far away minor leaguers. It doesn’t mean they are throwing in Upton.
Even if the 8 player thing stuck, for the Cubs to give up their #1 prospect along with another high end prospect and two more possible, probably contributors… I’m not sure what the Rays could possibly add to Garza to “even out” the trade.
As noted elsewhere… Garza straight up for Archer is a wash (and I wouldn’t trade Archer for a non-top 7 in baseball starter)… adding ANY other parts means the Cubs have lost the trade.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Talk about overvaluing a prospect
Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr
by bubbamike the one and only on Jan 8, 2011 12:35 AM CST up reply actions
Per that report, the extra players appear to be Fuld going, and a minor league pitcher and hitter coming.
forgive me if I’m not swayed yet.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Im hoping that some of the minor leaguers we get
are power bats. We shipped a lot of players over and lets hope we can get some 3b/1b prospects or corner power outfielders.
I suspect
that the Cubs viewed the prospects they gave up as blocked. Hopefully what they get back fits future needs better.
Yes, Chirinos is blocked by Koyie freaking Hill
And Archer wasn’t blocked by anybody.
It was a bad move. Stop trying to defend it with failed logic
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
I'll say this
The Rays are THE model of how to scout & develop players. They will trade Garza, plug in Hellickson & not miss a beat and then get our top minor league player to re-stock their system.
If Ricketts is serious about building from the farm up he should hire the entire TB scouting crew.
by CalCalender on Jan 7, 2011 9:55 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Rays were one of the worst teams in baseball for decades...
Do you REALLY want the Cubs to become the Blackhawks of the late 90s early 2000s in order to rack up dozens of #1 picks? It’s so easy to point and say “I want that,” but no one here is willing to go through what the Rays did to get there.
Yes
I think that’s what many Cubs fans want. The “burn a village to save it” philosophy.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
I don't see why any time the word "rebuild" comes up
Everyone has to take it to the extreme, and assume the Cubs are going to tank for a decade.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
No no no...
I’m all for rebuilding, don’t get me wrong. But to get to where the Rays are with depth and superstars all over their farm system, you need to be REALLY bad for REALLY long.
That's true
But the Cubs can speed up the process because they have money to spend. Or they used to, at least.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Doesn't this trade sort of demonstrate that he ISN'T serious about building from the farm?
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Just in time to
1. Clear out the remaining Cubs Convention tickets.
2. Boost single game ticket sales.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
Isn't that the point of a business?
To make money?
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
What makes more money for a sports franchise than building a consistent winner?
This is a short-term fix to a long-term problem. That is not a wise way to run a business.
That is Blasphemy around here ;)
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 7, 2011 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
Short term gains at any cost, EVERY YEAR!
(three steps back) ONE STEP FORWARD!! (two steps back) TWO STEPS FORWARD! (eight steps back) LOOK AT THE SHINY OBJECT!
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Love the dopes who overvalue our prospects
got some good laughs this morning
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
Acquiring Garza would do neither.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
Anyone who goes to the convention after last season
needs their head examined!
"Boycott the Cub Convention! This team sucks!"
If the Cubs trade Archer...
I might just need a vacation.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
Wow can we bitch about Hendry even more?
He’s doing what some of you want, and you’re still complaining about it.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
Some people just always have to complain about something
it’s sad to watch
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
Garza straight up for the first four prospects ...
was probably too much. But we should wait to see what happens when the dust settles.
No, we just shouldn't predict that the sky is falling.
I’m all for talking the hell out of this, dude. But let’s not burn Hendry in effigy until we know precisely what he did.
by elgato on Jan 7, 2011 10:04 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Saying something is a terrible move isn't quite the same as predicting that the sky is falling.
I said that I’m more than willing to reconsider my view if more information is announced.
But let’s say that the deal does end up being this 4-for-1. That’s a terrible move. That’s all I (and some others) are saying.
'some others'
While still other others (other others?) are comparing this to the Pierre trade and saying they’re now Royals fans.
The reported trade is awfully similar to the Pierre trade.
It’s eerily similar to the Pierre trade.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I don't buy that ...
for the simple fact that Garza is younger than Pierre was and under team control for three seasons at a decent price.
"Fail to get the guy you wanted, weeks later, massively overpay for a similar, lesser player"
In both cases, the team traded a top pitching prospect to a Florida team.
Obviously, we’re sending away more talent here, and receiving, ostensibly, a more talented “similar, lesser player”.
But the similarities are too strong to ignore.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Correction:
Garza straight up for Archer is probably too much.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
You ONLY trade your best one or two prospects under these scenarios:
1. You’re “going for it”… all in for this year.
2. You acquire an established impact player in return.
If the Cubs are under the impression of #1, the entire front office should be canned.
And while Garza has value, he is absolutely not an impact player.
Given the Cubs rebuilding status, you simply cannot make deals like this.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
At this point, Archer is indeed a pretty elite prospect.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
No he isnt
Being the top prospect in Cubs system doesn’t make you elite. If anything, he was a B+. Elites are A, A-.
I will consider him close to where Bret Wallace was a year ago. Cardinals gave him up along with others to get 6 months of Matt Holliday.
And Archer is on the rise... and on the fast track.
And he had the same grade (B+) as Lawrie, who got the Brewers Marcum all by himself.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Lawrie
is more than a B+, imho, if he stays at second.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 7, 2011 6:43 PM CST up reply actions
Unfortunately
Not all front offices go by John Sickel’s rankings.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 10:58 PM CST up reply actions
Further... I was thinking of a better comparison.
Even if Archer is not a truly elite prospect, there is the matter of relative value.
If a strong system with a number of high end prospects (like KC) traded away a B+ prospect, that barely makes a ripple.
The Cubs’ farm is strengthening, but much more in depth that in elite talent. I believe on that letter grading system, the Cubs had just three prospects at the B+ level: Brett Jackson, McNutt and Archer (since Cashner has lost his “prospect” status, though he must still be considered, realistically).
So, in relative value, the Cubs just traded HALF of what are, for them, elite pitching prospects.
If you are getting a decidedly elite talent in return, that’s one thing… but the Cubs aren’t. They are getting a very solid, useful #2 SP.
So, yes, I consider trading away a full 1/3 of your top dozen prospects for a guy with a ceiling of being a #2 (and really more likely a #3) isn’t the best idea.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Garza could be an impact player in the NL Central.
Don’t write him off just yet.
And you don't trade your #1 prospect
for a “could be.”
Reread that statement please...
What the hell else is a prospect other than a “could be?”
I am not "writing off" Garza in any way.
But he simply isn’t an “impact” player. He’s a very solid starter and makes the rotation better.
But pardon me if I don’t jump for joy that we just traded our best pitching prospect for a player who might, if he reaches his ceiling, improve the rotation by 1 WAR. It’s just a terrible deal. There’s really no two ways around it.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Jan 7, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
no
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
If you'd trade Archer in order to add Matt Garza to the 2011 Cubs, you're either lying or underinformed.
The addition will mean next to nothing. The subtraction will hurt the organization immensely.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Would you trade Archer...
to get someone like Chris Carpenter in his prime?
"Whoever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" - Frank Chance
Of course.
But that isn’t the deal. Not even close.
There are lots of elite players worth trading our best pitching prospect for. Garza isn’t/wasn’t on that list.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Perhaps you should check this out...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/carpech01.shtml
His numbers in the AL were very pedestrian, IMO. He even blew out his arm when he was 27. The Cards pick him up, and when healthy, he’s a perennial Cy Young contender.
Garza, from what I’ve read, has very similar if not better, stuff on paper than Carpenter when the Cards landed him, and he hasn’t had the injury history.
"Whoever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" - Frank Chance
Sorry, Garza is not Carpenter. Not close.
And STL signed Garza as a free agent roll of the dice. I’d say that’s “not the same deal” as trading away five players, including two top prospects.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
We've traded Archer to add Matt Garza to the 2011/12/13 Cubs
and, if he improves, as expected, with a move to the NL, maybe a few years longer.
I'd trade 5-6 years of an unproven minor leaguer
for 3 years of a strong starter in the AL East.
How strong is "strong"?
I see .500, 1.25 WHIP, ERA just under 4.00.
I think that there are a lot of stronger pitchers in the AL East.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
That are controlled for 3 years
making under 6M that are moving from the hardest division in baseball to one of, if not the easiest?
List please?
Leaving aside the "changing divisions" part, which in this hypo would apply to any AL East pitcher -
I see Price, Lester, Buchholz as clearly better, Romero and Marcum as arguably better, and Phil Hughes as not there yet.
And I don’t see Garza making under $6M this year.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I agree with Price and Lester.
And if the Cubs made this offer for either, they’d be laughed off the phone.
so we should just keep offering it to whoever will take it
even if the offer goes the other way and becomes overpaying?
You’re advocating making a move just to make a move at that point
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Get real
I am not someone that reflexively bashes Hendry. But the reported deal is absolutely terrible. From a strategic and value standpoint.
But that deal is not official.
So you’re basically bashing him for something he has not done.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
And if it doesn't turn out to be a deal then I will retract my statements
But EVERYONE is reporting this. It’s gonna happen.
“The prospects, according to the Daily Herald report, are SS/2B Hak-Ju Lee, P Chris Archer, OF Brandon Guyer and C Robinson Chirinos. There is a possibility the Rays will give up another player, possibly a major-leaguer, and get back another player, possibly another major-leaguer, according to the report.”
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
You claim you're not bashing for nothing, but make comments like this
You have no idea, yet assume the worst.
I honestly can't wait for it to be official so you can stop trying to defend a bad deal
what am I saying, you’ll defend it even when it becomes official
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
he isn't
doing what alot of us want. so no.
Surprisingly, some people want the Cubs to go for it this year.
So yes, people are still bitching, and Hendry is doing exactly what they want.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
I always want the Cubs to "go for it"
but getting at best a #2 starter while trading away your top pitching prospect and 3 other top prospects is not going to do it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Robinson Chirinos and Brandon Guyer are not top prospects.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
They are top 15
Not very top. They are tradeable. I would not object to putting them in a deal but like most I am freaking out over trading Archer and Lee.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
Lee had a lot to prove before he was ready to be a major leaguer.
I don’t mind losing him. Archer definitely stings, and I need to see what we got besides Garza.
I'm willing to bet a dollar that no one - not ONE poster - wanted to trade Archer for Garza.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I had to check my calender
I seriously thought this was April Fools. I will wait for details but it looks like the Juan Pierre
trade on speed.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
When I saw the Cubs were trading for Garza
I was like, oh ok. Not bad. I looked at the first 3 names, Chirinos, Guyer and Lee. I was like, hmm. Seems ok. But, then as soon as I saw Archer’s name I literally said: NOOOOOOO. And started cursing.
by JSB on Jan 7, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed.
Hendry flinched and panicked.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I don't want to comment until the deal is final
but people holding on to a job by the thread might just panic.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
This is the deal of a GM with his back against a wall...
…He’s paid his salary to build a winning team, and I admire that he’s trying to do that. That said, I hope that Archer isn’t a part of this deal, or that this is all there is to the deal as a whole.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
That's on Ricketts
He is a huge dumba— for thinking that he could retain a guy as GM of a rebuilding team and not mortgage the future.
It's funny how no one can read the writing on the wall until their backs are up against it.
Ricketts should have seen that Hendry needed to be replaced a long time ago. Instead, he’s going to let the guy trash his organization, and fire Hendry when the team hits rock bottom for the 2nd (3rd?) time in Hendry’s tenure.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
What report were you reading that listed Archer last?
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 7, 2011 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
In the first report
I skipped over it… since it was my mind not believing Hendry could be so short-sighted.
Plus, Archer’s name was the only one without a bio link… at least originally.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
That is exactly how I felt.
Time will tell, I guess.
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
its sad to admit
but I was pretty happy at the time of the Pierre trade. It was before I started to really pay attention to the game.
Ha, same here.
I thought getting Pierre and Derrek Lee back together again would lead to great things.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
And I wasn't.
I thought the perceived trade value of Nolasco, Pinto and Mitre was higher than Pierre. Only Nolasco has turned out to be any good, but the Cubs could have gotten a lot more than that for those three.
And that’s a cautionary tale, too. At the time, it was thought that all three could have good major league careers. Now, the Cubs have traded four players away and everyone’s up in arms.
The odds that more than one of the four will be a solid major league performer are pretty small.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Sometimes Al, you talk yourself into circles bending over backwards to defend our idiot GM
You said yourself. “the Cubs could have gotten a lot more than that for those three.”
Whether or not those three all turned into superstars, their value at the time was MUCH higher than a one year rental of Juan Pierre.
Whether or not Archer turns into the ace many think he will, or Lee turns into the stud many think he will, the Cubs could have and should have gotten more RIGHT NOW than they did.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
I agree with you re: the Pierre deal.
We’ll wait and see re: Garza, who is a far better player than Pierre ever was.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Oh, lord.
So trading four prospects for a 27-year-old 15-game winner (under team control for three seasons) is the same thing (on speed) as trading three pitching prospects for a “leadoff man” under control for ONE season who played mediocre outfield defense and a horrible OBP?
Let’s not get carried away.
I don't believe the Pierre group
included nearly as many top prospects let alone the top prospect. Both seem desperation
win this year and screw the future deals.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
I'd continue to debate you ...
but when you said you wouldn’t make this move if it meant shedding all of Soriano’s salary, well, you lost all credibility.
Good bye.
Well I was exagerating a bit
because of course Rays are dumping salary, but as proposed this is a HORRIBLE trade.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
A 'bit'?
I’m leaning toward not liking this deal, but I do want to see more on the two minor-leaguers from Tampa.
I suck at using Al's sarcasm font
It is still a bad deal.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
WINS, elgato?! Seriously?
Silva won 10 games last year. Maybe someone will trade US 2 of their top 10 prospects.
Are you seriously saying that 15 wins on an awesome team, with mediocre peripherals, warrants 2 of your top 4 prospects, including your #1, a damn-near MLB ready pitcher who has a far higher ceiling than Garza?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I'm not saying that.
I’m saying there’s more upside here than the Pierre deal.
And given the peripherals
Translates to 10-12 wins in the NLC playing in Wrigley with the Cubs D… no matter how you slice it.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I'm not commenting until the details are final
but it better not be this 4 for 1 deal.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Buster Olney's Take on Twitter
Buster_ESPN
Cubs stepped up last 48 hours to be very, very aggressive to get Garza — just as Brewers stepped up for Greinke. An NL Central arms race.
An interesting decision by the Cubs to mortgage such a cache of young players in order to try to win in 2011.
I'm getting ill
but I don’t want to comment until the trade is final.
I don’t want to irritate the Hendry lovers.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
cubs are a better team now, and that makes you angry?
hilarious
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
So you'd be happy if we went from a 75 win to a 79 win team?
At the sake of giving up some young, cost-controlled talent?
It’s the whole ‘we need to win NOW!’ short-term problem solving attitude that has the Cubs in a hole.
by Schwa on Jan 7, 2011 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, garza is only worth 4 wins
lol, you people crack me up.
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
How much do you believe he's worth?
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 7, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
Who is Garza replacing?
I bet the Cubs will win 2 extra games because of that upgrade. And that might be an overstatement.
Ted Lilly.
I would be shocked if Garza is 2 WAR over Ted Lilly.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
LOL
I just spit out my coffee.
Garza is worth 4 MORE wins? Pass the pipe.
I’ll wager you essentially whatever you want Garza doesn’t post a WAR of 4 (nonetheless a WAR of 4 MORE than what he is replacing, which is about 1 WAR) in any single season the next two years.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
You don't understand baseball, or apparently, marginal utility.
How much better will the 2011 Cubs, with Garza as their #3, be than the 2010 Cubs, with Lilly as their #3?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't waste your time.
You crack him up with your use of logic.
by Schwa on Jan 7, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I you dont try
you will never win… Look at the long term with this deal in find.. The only player that will be missed in this deal is Archer. and you have Garza for the next 3 years. Plus Garza is a sure thing. Just remember someone traded him to you for Derosa and everyone was crying about it. Now you are getting Garza for it and you are still crying.
Until last year Archer was not in out top 10!. They are just prospects! No sure thing
Garza is a sure thing... how?
Sure to be an above-average pitcher? Well, sure. I’ll bet that he’ll be very good.
Sure to be better than Chris Archer over the next 5 years? I disagree with that assessment. He very well MAY be better than Archer. He may not be.
Sure to be a top 10 pitcher in baseball, as the Cubs are claiming today? I don’t think that’s likely at all.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
D98 as many times as we have butted heads
90% of what you have said in thie thread is dead on IMHO and leaving me with no reason to comment
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
You're talking as if Chris Archer is a sure thing.
Garza has major league success under his belt already. Archer does not.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
No, I'm not. I'm talking as if Chris Archer has a solid chance to be a #1 starter.
The Cubs have lots and lots of above-average talent. They got a little bit more today.
What the Cubs don’t have a lot of is elite talent. I have no idea if Chris Archer is such a pitcher. He seems to have a chance to be. That chance is worth holding on to.
Garza would be a nice addition if it hadn’t come at such a cost.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Do you think...
…that Trey McNutt has an equal or greater chance than Archer of becoming an elite talent?
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Sure. But I'd rather have 2 lottery tickets than 1.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Same here.
Or perhaps it’s better to say we had THREE lottery tickets if we include Cashner.
I didn’t want this trade to happen, but I’m tryin to make some peace with it.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Would you rather
have three lotto tickets and maybe win big money, or a sure-fire $10,000 in your pocket?
I’d take the sure fire $10,000.
The Rays traded him because they are too cheap to try to lock him in the future. He is a great pitcher. I am shocked people are so pissed.
You can make that case
that McNutt is a better prospect than Archer. I wouldn’t, but it’s close enough.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
I think Hendry could have been thinking along these lines.
He’s still got two top young pitchers in Cashner and McNutt to continue developing.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
So given the state of the Cubs
Why would you trade the more ready guy?
And I’ve given Hendry the benefit of the doubt, but I seriously doubted he considered this. Anyone who would claim Garza is a top 10 pitcher in baseball simply doesn’t have the capacity.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I'm not in favor of this trade at all
But that’s because I don’t think Garza is all that great.
My point is that the Cubs lost nothing they couldn’t afford to lose. But just because I can live without something doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to give it away for cheap.
The Garza comment is just advertising copy, though. I wouldn’t read it literally.
I’m on your side. Mostly.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
Fair enough.
My one subtle difference in the “afford to give up” area is that Archer is at least a potential TOR. At this point, only McNutt and Cashner could be considered that in the Cubs’ system. When you’ve only got two other guys with that kind of projection (and both with plenty of questions), I just don’t think you can “afford to give that up” without getting an elite return, which they didn’t.
Totally agree on the advertising copy… of course the issue with that is it sets unrealistic expectations for the fans. The casual Cub fans will hear that and think they really are getting one of the 10 best SPs instead of just a solid starter.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I think he's more a #2 ceiling
if that makes you feel any better. Archer’s control is still an issue.
But believe you me, no one is more upset about this trade than I am.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
And believe you me....
… I understand your pain.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Here's the explanation.
We had profiles of Archer and Chirinos, written by Josh, ready to go for the MSP Cubs Annual.
Now we’ve got to punt.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Josh
It’s hard reading through almost 700 comments, so I apologize up front.. Josh I would really like to hear your input. Not knowing a lot about all the players involved, but I feel the Cubs gave up a lot in this deal.
Just read the first line, then comment.
However,
I do have some work to do today SINCE I HAVE TO REWRITE EVERYTHING I WROTE FOR THE MSP ANNUAL BY TODAY!
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, because baseball is played on paper
get a clue
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
Explain exactly how I referred to anything whatsoever "on paper"?
I’m saying that Ted Lilly has been a top performer in EXACTLY the same spot Matt Garza will be slotted.
If you think that going from Garza to Lilly is worth MORE than a 4 win swing, then I don’t know what to say, other than you must not understand some pretty basic concepts of baseball and/or economics.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Versus SIX years for Archer.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Six years of uncertainty.
He could be horrible, or he could be terrific. Likely at his best he will not be much better than Garza.
Also keep in mind at least one or two of those years will be developmental years. He’s not going to step in the majors fully-formed as an ace. David Price took a year to get acclimated and he was a MUCH more highly touted prospect than Archer.
And not all at the MLB level either.
Certainty is not so easily shaken.
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
by awfullyquiet on Jan 7, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
I heard Chris Archer
has like no control whatsoever. You have no idea if he will get hurt before he makes the majors, will be able to handle hitters in the majors or will ever develop control.
Garza is better than a #3 pitcher. He is more like a #1 or #2. This whole dismay thing is shocking.
How do you see him as a #1? Seriously.
I see a 4.00 ERA, pretty mediocre all around on the peripherals, and a .500 record for a way-over-.500 team, for what that’s worth.
Has he ever been a #1?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
You know...
at some point, saying ‘I don’t want to comment until the trade is final’ is pretty meaningless when it’s paired with a comment about the trade as it currently stands.
there has GOT to be something more to this deal
there’s no way hendry is giving up that much just for garza. what other rays players could be useful to us? zobrist?
I would not like this deal as posted
If it included the Rays taking Soriano and his whole contract off our hands.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
hahahahahahahah
So you wouldn’t take Garza and $72 MILLION for Archer, Lee, et. al?
Archer has yet to pitch in the majors...
I’m a huge fan of protecting young pitching, but this is a little overboard.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
leave it to you Doggie
to make the most asinine post about this on the board. That’s completely insane.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Jim Callis Take
jimcallisBA
Are the #Cubs going to give up Archer, Lee, Guyer & Chirinos and Garza? Seems bit rich to me, especially if the #Rays are trying to save $.
The deal is done, but the deal is unknown
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
I've never been one
to be on the “Hendry absolutely sucks, let’s fire him” bandwagon, but if THIS is the deal. I will be on board that. There is absolutely no reason for that to be the deal. Garza is a high end #2..MAYBE. Our package is way too much for Garza. Ridiculous. I’ve never been so mad about Cubs deals. And I’ve gotten pretty bad.
It's an eight player deal ...
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
Let's play the opmtimism game here for a second:
One name I’d like to see thrown in the mix is Sean Rodriguez. Still somewhat young, has some serious upside, plays solid D, has some speed, some pop, etc. I don’t think it would make me like this proposed deal that much more, but he’d at least be an interesting piece to consider if you’re the Cubs.
I was just looking at the Rays roster and wondered about him
but I would think they would be willing to move Zobrist before Rodriguez.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Well we'd be more willing to trade a pile of baseballs than Archer.
I just feel like we’d need to take some upside back to make up for the loss of young talent.
(Was that a little snarky? Just frustrated)
I'm not disagreeing with you
I wondered about him too. It’s just that he is so cheap that I doubt the Rays would move him.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Yeah, I guess you just hope Hendry would say something like:
“Hey, we’re giving you two of our absolute best prospects. You need to throw in something intriguing like S-Rod to make this work.”
cubs got minor league outfielder and some other minor leaguer
wow. hendry was fleeced. this is about three times as much as the brewers gave up for greinke. wow. the organizational ship is sinking. no plan.
sorry - listening to levine live on waddle and silvy
he was stating it as fact. done deal. i’m just assuming he’s right.
by John T. Unger on Jan 7, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
levine updated his story
“The deal, which has been agreed to pending physicals, sends right-handed pitcher Chris Archer, outfielder Brandon Guyer, catcher Robinson Chirinos, shortstop Hak-Ju Lee and outfielder Sam Fuld to Tampa for Garza, a minor-league pitcher and a minor-league outfielder.”
"Slump ? I ain't in no slump. I just ain't hittin." --Yogi Berra
Rays got a great system
Hendry plays his cards right he could get some good value back
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
That is my only hope.
Maybe they are getting some good lower level talent. The Rays org though isn’t quite as strong as it was since many guys have been graduating.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Ok let's wait and see what else is invloved.
I wonder if it would possibly include Zobrist? ’ve heard nothing yet but he sure would solve our 2b proble
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
lol later sam fuld
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:23 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
home sick, not much to say except
jim hendrey will never learn. this deal could negate the respect he gained from a 1 yr pena deal.
I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".
He gained respect for handing Pena $10 million?
Are the Rays the new Baltimore Orioles for Hendry by the way?
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
i suppose a lot depends on who the minor leaguers are from the rays
but we traded two of our top three prospects. wow.
+1
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-cubs-wrigley-bound/
levine
says the cubs think they’re getting one of the top 10 pitchers in the majors and a guy who is better than greinke. i sure hope they know something we don’t.
by John T. Unger on Jan 7, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
That is now the question.
If Garza can be a high #2 then the deal might be worthwhile.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
One of the top 10 pitchers in the majors?
Good god. Hendry is dumber than a pile of rocks. Sure, Garza is better than:
Halladay, Lee, Sabathia, Lincecum, Felix Hernandez, Jon Lester, Matt Cain, Francisco Liriano, Ubaldo Jiminez, Justin Verlander, Clayton Kershaw, Adam Wainwright Josh Johnson……That’s 14 names off the top of my head that are slam dunks.
by JSB on Jan 7, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You could likely name 10 better pitchers in the NL
Greinke, Halladay, Cain, Lincecum, Carpenter, Wainwright, Cliff Lee, Ubaldo Jiminez, Clayton Kershaw, Tim Hudson, Tommy Hanson, Josh Johnson, Yovanni Gallardo…..
I was on a roll. There’s 13 right there!
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and he'll be put 3rd in the rotation
which means we must have three of the top 10 pitchers in baseball.
Then the Cubs are farking idiots.
Top 10 pitcher? Does Hendry have a drinking problem we aren’t aware of?
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
@thekapman
Matt Garza is coming to Cubs. One GM (not Hendry) just told me That cubs made a solid deal. Said prospects are good but not elite.
Us fans know more than baseball GMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
well archer is the #1 prospect
in a system ranked eighth by baseball america. if he’s not an elite prospect he’s pretty damn close.
by John T. Unger on Jan 7, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Look at this link and tell me where Archer is. You have one great year and you’re at number 1.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
Look at this link and tell me where Castro is.
Prospect’s rankings change all the time.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
And it's not like you should ever look to it as gospel.
Five foot three seems to thrive on his misery...
by awfullyquiet on Jan 7, 2011 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
Ranked #8 because of incredible depth, not star heavy.
There is a big difference.
“Us fans know more than baseball GMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
welcome to internet message boards, lol
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
Oh yes
Everything Jim Hendry has done is good. He has led the Cubs to such glory.
Of course, there are two sides to every deal. It is just that some of us broke our blue colored glasses watching the disaster that our wonderful GM gave the fans last year.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
According to BRUCE
Just heard with my own ears:
Archer, Lee, Guyer, Chirinos, AND FULD
for
Minor league OF and Pitcher
Sorry JEssica
FULD this is a worse deal
Just kidding. He needed a change but this is a TERRIBLE deal.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
It depends on who the other minor leaguerS are in return.
Yes, plural. Here is the latest:
The Tampa Bay Rays and Chicago Cubs have agreed to a multi-player deal that will bring right-handed pitcher Matt Garza to Chicago, according to a major league source.
The deal, which has been agreed to pending physicals, sends right-handed pitcher Chris Archer, outfielder Brandon Guyer, catcher Robinson Chirinos, shortstop Hak-Ju Lee and outfielder Sam Fuld to Tampa for Garza, a minor-league pitcher and a minor-league outfielder.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I want to see who the "minor league pitcher" and "minor league OF" are first.
The Cubs might have gotten some decent value back in that case.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Al you're awesome...
I don’t think anyone else but you would be capable of having a calm mind after a trade like this. Very impressive zen stuff… I think I"m going to hire you as my spiritual coach. :)
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
I don't do the torches and pitchforks thing.
Seems like many here have those warmed up and ready to go no matter what Hendry does.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It's not unreasonable...
for Hendry to deserve skepticism after the job he’s done running this organization from top to bottom.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Skepticism is one thing.
This is a mob scene.
This is approaching a "worst case/DEFCON 1" trade for Hendry.
“no matter what Hendry does” is an absurd thing to say. He just traded 2 of the team’s top 4 prospects for yet another middle-rotation pitcher.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Which part of that is opinion?
The fact that Lee/Archer are 2 of our top prospects? Or that Garza is a middle of the rotation pitcher?
I'd imagine ...
Al’s referring to “worst case/DEFCON 1”.
Fair enough.
But if you acknowledge that we’re shipping off 2 of our top prospects for a middle of the rotation guy… then it’s really not that big of a leap.
Personally, I don’t think this is the worst thing in the world. It’s simply another short-sighted move by a guy who consistently seems to not have a long-term plan.
I believe Garza can be BETTER than a middle of the rotation guy.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Based on what?
And that’s not meant to be snarky… I’m just curious. What about his track record indicates that he could be a top of the rotation guy? Maybe you’ve seen him pitch enough to think that his stuff is better than his numbers indicate… I don’t know. I’d just like to think that your belief is based on something more than ‘Man, I really hope he can be a top of the rotation guy for us for the next 3 years.’
I'm one of those who believes...
… that coming from the AL East to the NL Central will improve a pitcher’s numbers.
Call him a right-handed Ted Lilly.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Here we go ...
Al, I believe you are about to get flamed …
I may just exit this post for the rest of the day, then.
Because honestly, I cannot stand some of the attitudes around here, which amount to “HENDRYSUCKSNOMATTERWHATHEDOES.” or “Everything the Cubs do is wrong.”
Really, why are those people Cubs fans in the first place?
I have never seen the kind of negativity from ANY other team’s fanbase that I see here. It really wears on me.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well, this is a controversial trade.
I’m not that happy about it, personally — though I would like to see more about the minor leaguers we’re receiving.
Why is this controversial?
Archer has no control. He hasn’t proven anything.
Lee had a .375 SLG in the low minors. I do realize he’s good defensively, but ask Red Sox fans how much they liked having Alex Gonzalez as their SS for a year.
The other two are backups.
We have Garza for 3 years at a good price!
What is there to bitch about?? Believe me, I hate a lot of what Hendry has done, but this is a good deal!
Don’t let the BCB door hit you in the butt on the way out.
You must be dizzy from the violent 180 degree turn you made regarding trading Archer for Garza.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 7, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think you're going to get flamed for that.
Lilly obviously pitched much better when he went from the AL East to the NL Central. It’s possible that happens for Garza as well.
And I figured you’d be immune to the ‘sky is falling’ people by now. It’s not like they just showed up out of nowhere.
Exactly what I want to know
It’s beyond ridiculous.
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
by bluemagic9 on Jan 7, 2011 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
AL don't leave
Your right in the negativity on this site….I’ve been here for about 3 years now and I see the same thing over and over, some people have to find the negative in everything, and no matter what the cubs and hendry do or don’t do, it’s wrong and they suck and need to be replaced…..Prospects are just that: Prospects…they are not proven at the major league level and no one knows what they will or won’t do…it’s all projections and simulations and conjecture by people sitting in offices that have nothing better to do. This team needed a solid pitcher and they got one….and I believe he will make an impact on this team and contribute greatly.
Oh, WHY do people bemoan Hendry's horrible deals that consistently blow up in his face?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I'm not sure people understand how awful last year's team was
To spend that much money and finish that poorly is nearly unprecedented. Now everyone’s supposed to be super optimistic heading into 2011 with the same FO. I dunno, too much of a stretch for me.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
by shoemile on Jan 7, 2011 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't blame you, Al
I don’t care for Pollyannas, but I think Negative Nellies are much, much worse.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
"I don’t care for Pollyannas"
Wut? That’s your entire persona. Granted your as an abrasive a pollyanna as I’ve ever seen but I’ve never seen you disagree with ONE move Hendry or Lou ever made.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
And I've never seen you
agree with one.
Go away.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
Couldn;t agree more Al. I thought this was a Cubs fan site.
It’s OK to criticize, but this is out of hand. Garza makes us better. I don’t know how you can say he doesn’t
Probably because most teams
don’t have the huge fan base that cares so much about their team like the Cubs have.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jan 7, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
as opposed to the "WhateverJimHendrydoesisright!"
tact you’ve taken since the Bradley for Silva deal?
I STILL remember you claiming that moving Zambrano to the pen was a good move because Carlos is such a good teammate that it would work out.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
You know, we had the ACTUAL Ted Lilly last year.
And we could have kept him!
And it wouldn’t have cost the organization’s best prospect!
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Lol, so, so true.
I don’t come here often, as despite the awful job Hendry has don, we get rocked for suggesting that he sucks at his job. It’s not negativity, it’s realism.
How 'bout a comparison to Chris Carpenter...
Without the arm issues.
He came from the AL East, had middling record and stats. Goes to the NL Central and becomes a Cy Young winner.
Same age, even.
"Whoever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" - Frank Chance
"That's your opinion."
At least my opinion has the benefit of being based on Garza’s actual performance, as opposed to yours, which is based entirely on warm fuzzies and a reflexive desire to defend the indefensible.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
YESTERDAY, you were against this deal.
Today, you’re all in favor of it.
The only thing that has changed is that Hendry actually did it.
I don’t even know if you have an opinion. It certainly isn’t worth much if you change it every time Hendry does the opposite.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
He's not in favor of it, he's just not against it
until he knows what the actual trade is!
Maybe we should call this the
Trade to Nowhere.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Essentially, this is a trade for Archer for Garza.
CC Sabathia:
3.18 21-7 197 1.19
Phil Hughes:
4.19 18-8 146 1.25
Matt Garza:
3.91 15-10 150 1.25
And remember, Sabathia doesn’t have to pitch against the Yankees.
So we’re getting a pitcher who has likely performed about as well as Sabathia, who is under control for 3 more years, and who is only 27 years old. We gave up a good prospect, but one who has no control.
And people are pissed because… ?
I would’ve traded Archer for Hughes. Seriously, why is everyone so upset?
If it is a trade of Archer for Garza
Can we keep Lee, Guyer & Chirinos?
That is simply idiotic. It is trade of all of them
for Garza.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not crazy about this deal, Schwa.
But it’s very hard to judge right now. I imagine Hendry would have been crucified three years ago had he sent Rich Hill to Baltimore for Brian Roberts. It was a mistake to keep Hill, as it turned out.
Maybe it won’t be a mistake to deal Archer. I don’t know — but this isn’t the same old thing from Hendry, right or wrong.
It was a mistake to trade Nolasco for Pierre, too.
Obviously, the stakes are higher here. But trading the organization’s top-end arms for players who are proven to be “above-average” is not the path to greatness.
Once again, Hendry is proving that he’s just not capable of competing in his chosen profession. It’s a tough racket, and the Cubs need a smarter man at the wheel.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I'm done with Hendry, too.
But this deal isn’t the reason why.
It's hard to say which trade is worse
The saving grace is that at least the Cubs control Garza for the next 3 years. Pierre was a one-year rental.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Check out the post below about Moore.
If we get him, this doesn’t look that bad.
I don't think Moore was included. It wouldn't make any sense. He's an elite prospect.
IowaCubs posted his name but didn’t give a source.
Not to mention trading
Matt, superstar, Murton and Eric Patterson. Just think of how many games we would have won with those talented players on the team. BTW where is Bobby Hill today?
Tired of the nattering nabobs of negativity.
Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr
by bubbamike the one and only on Jan 8, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
There comes a point when *facts* matter.
Hendry is long past that point. He just included Archer in the deal for Garza. Which is something that you have said, on multiple occasions, would be too much.
To now say “you’d be mad no matter what Hendry did”, even as he’s making a ludicrous trade that you have said you would not do for the better part of a week, and that you YOURSELF panned earlier this morning, is hypocrisy.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Why aren't the Rays prospects named?
Even Sam Fuld was named. That leads me to believe they are organizational fodder acquired just so the Cubs can say they got more than Garza back.
Well, let's wait on that.
There’s enough to be upset about without assuming Hendry got fleeced on the minor leaguers.
Right like we are going to trade 2 of our top prospects
and they will give us back any really good ones? I doubt that.
Just an awful deal.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
It's possible the minor leaguers are good but farther away from the majors than ...
Guyer, Chirinos and Archer. That’s the only way I can see them being valuable.
Guyer and Chirinos, IMO..
… are not really great prospects. They are both older and project as backups.
The only real loss here is Archer.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Lee's a loss, too.
But this really comes down to who will be better over the next few seasons — Garza or Archer?
It actually has nothing to do with this
It has everything to do with whether they could have turned Lee and Archer into a valuable piece for a future team that might actually contend. That’s not even factoring into whether they could have actually used Lee or Archer at the MLB level. What Garza does this year is irrelevant, because this team is far from a playoff contender. They’re lucky if they’re the third best team in the NL Central with Garza.
There’s no real positive to this, since Garza doing well over the next few seasons only makes him more expensive for when the Cubs can actually contend… maybe prohibitively so given the direction of the franchise.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
remember Garza
isnt entering a FA year – he will still be under team control for a couple more years – and he still has some upside being only 27
Garza is proven...
Archer is not…..how many times have we seen players rake at the AAA level but can’t make it in the pros…..not saying archer won’t make it, but no one knows at this point
How is Lee not a loss?
I mean, yeah, he might not pan out… but he’s got a very nice skill set and plays a premium position (and plays it better defensively than our current SS). I don’t get that.
He's 20 years old.
Unlike Castro, he isn’t close to being major league ready.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
That doesn't mean he's not a loss.
Even as a prospect, he would have value as a trade chip.
And guess what?
He was just traded! So the trade chip was used!
Let’s see how it pans out first before we blast this deal.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I haven't commented a lot yet
but I really like you Al. Specifically for the “no torches and pitchforks” approach. Keep that level head, I love it.
Chicago fan stuck in Florida.
RIP Ron Santo
by alkappy on Jan 7, 2011 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think people had Castro pinned to be a major leaguer at such a young age.
You never know with prospects when things are just gonna ‘click’ for them. And what’s wrong with having a guy that is 2-3 years away from potentially being a very special player? Aren’t these the guys that we need in the system? That is, unless you think the Cubs are built to contend in the next 2 years. And I won’t argue with you on that, because it’s really just opinion at this time.
If it's a loss than why wasn't this done for GREINKE?
Seems like Hendry played his cards too late.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
Maybe the Royals wouldn't do that deal.
Also, Greinke costs a lot more in dollars.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Really, now.
Greinke pitched against the likes of the Indians, Tigers, White Sox and Twins.
Garza pitched against the Red Sox and Yankees.
Garza
3.91 15-10 150 1.25
Greinke:
4.17 10-14 181 1.25
I hate to be a jerk, but you guys are full of shit. Why can’t you be happy that we just made our team better for three more years?!
PS — I too think Hendry should be fired for the absolutely outrageous signings of Milton Bradley, Alfonso Soriano, and Kosuke Fukodome. However, objectively speaking, this is a good deal.
Garza also pitched against the likes of the Orioles
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Good.
Go be a fan of another team, then. I think you mentioned the Royals? Don’t let the BCB door hit you in the butt on the way out.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Why are you jumping down the throats of people?
I think given Hendry’s track record—combined with the faliure to trade for the ever available Greinke and/or A-Gon—people have a right to be upset.
Sure, prospects are just that until they are proven, but this isn’t the “impact” deal (on the surface) that we all were hoping for. This would be a “nice” addition, had it not included the Cubs’ top prospect, but this was basically the price of a Greinke or A-Gon.
You’d think that someone that has been a Cubs’ fan as long as you would understand the frustration of failing to witness a winner when every other major market in baseball can do it.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Sure I do.
I simply cannot stand the constant negativity.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well, it gets tiresome
but the “self-loathing” Cub fan is warranted.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
Because you guys are full of crap!!
This deal just made the Cubs better.
What do you want us to do, be the Royals and accumulate potential talent? Don’t you want to win now?
White Sox are looking for a few good fans...
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
I don't think it had anything to do with $$ did it?
The royals wanted “up the middle mlb-ready (ish)” talent and we didn’t have it.
by English Cub Fan on Jan 7, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
And LEE
Chirinos was sure to get traded. Guyer is hopefully not much of a loss and poor Fuld needed a team that might actually play him (I don’t know the Tampa OF depth chart)
but Chirios and Guyer were at least middling trade chips for other deals and not worthless. Lee AND Archer is just a killer.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
And Lee
Lee’s a potential star. (Of course, he’s a potential bust too.)
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
As always
“We’ll see”
According to Bruce, the Cubs believe Garza to be one of the 10 top pitchers in baseball right now and liked him always better than Grienke.
if they like Garza more than Grienke
they need to get off the pipe
by CalCalender on Jan 7, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Grienke is a fragile freddy
he could break down at any time.
"Boycott the Cub Convention! This team sucks!"
uhhh
the guy is over 200 IP every year. And he is better at sports than Garza. Fragile?
good argument. Garza is over 200 IP every year as well ....
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
but not
as good as Grienke.
I’m not saying Garza is dog food but the simple truth is he isnt as good as Grienke
Not as good but not far off.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
He's not?
Where is Matt Garza’s Cy Young Award for pitching on the worst team in his league?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
PRESSURE
Isn’t it much more difficult to pitch under pressure, with a winning team. I think the whole cy young for a losing team is a bunch of BS. Greinke has no post season experience — or regular season pennant race experience.
It is?
Which gives you more confidence? Pitching for a team that supplies you with upwards of 4.5+ runs a game or knowing that you have to basically limit your opponent to 1 run in order to have a chance to win?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
Mental fragility is the issue with Grienke
But I think he’s past it. And Milwaukee’s not exactly a pressure-cooker even with heightened expectations.
Not counting the years he was off with mental problems
"Boycott the Cub Convention! This team sucks!"
Year off
And it was all the way back in 2006.
Think before you post. You are easily one of the 5 worst posters on this site.
by JSB on Jan 7, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Can you provide a link
for the list of the 5 worst posters?
by LT on Jan 7, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
I don't have the entire list yet
But I know that Itchy and that stupid Jake Fox fan, whatever his name are on it.
Because I don't love Zack Greinke?
You’re the worst, just flip out and call people names if they don’t agree with you? That’s real smart. Enjoy being a Brewers fan!
"Boycott the Cub Convention! This team sucks!"
No, not because of Zack Greinke
Lot’s of people disagreed with me on Greinke.
You are a terrible poster because you get your facts wrong and because you consistently post dumb stuff.
by JSB on Jan 7, 2011 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Not one thing I said in this post is wrong
Greinke has had mental problems and that’s a fact. They may be gone, which is fine, but it did happen.
"Boycott the Cub Convention! This team sucks!"
Not true
Not counting the years he was off with mental problems
He missed 1 partial season. Not “years”
by JSB on Jan 7, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Freddy is my name :)
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
"They played like son of a guns......lord have mercy." Mike Quade
He looked pretty damn good last year.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
That makes sense because he is cheaper
Cubs through and through.
"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 7, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
Oh my stars
somebody please stop the Cubs and Jim Hendry from doing this trade!
DO NOT give up Chris Archer!
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jan 7, 2011 10:31 AM CST reply actions
yeah let's hold onto prospects for too long
and then trade them to Baltimore when they suck. good plan.
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
Or actually try and develop them, ya know, like a REAL MLB franchise.
I was hoping the Castro/Cashner/Colvin trio was a sign of things to come – a sign that we were starting to buy into the need to develop/cultivate young players through the system.
Maybe not.
There ARE other players in the system.
I’m not wholeheartedly endorsing this deal. But there are still many good pieces in the minors.
Correct.
For example, next up will be Brett Jackson, and possibly Trey McNutt. Those are the guys you didn’t want to give up, and Hendry didn’t.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
You are such an apologist
You can say this is a bad trade Al. Nobody is going to take away your season tickets.
HA!
Lol!
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
Amen brother!
All these people are jumping off ledges over trading one legitimate prospect and 4 guys for a proven major league stud pitcher. For once, I agree with Hendry.
"Boycott the Cub Convention! This team sucks!"
Stud is the key word
Is Garza that pitcher? David Price is a stud.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
The Cubs traded for David Price?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
TWO legitimate prospects
Some people think Lee might have been the best guy in the Cubs system but he is so young. A high value SS is particularly valuable commodity.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What people rated Lee over Brett Jackson?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
We traded 2 highly-ranked prospects, 2 lower-level prospects and a guy
Unless to be a legitimate prospect you now have to be in the top 40 of all of baseball.
Get a grip man. You have no clue what you are talking about.
Uh, yeah he does.
He’s saying that prospects are highly unpredictable. Even top 40 prospects as you said have a high failure rate.
Evidence that Garza is a "Stud" pitcher?
Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, Tim Lincecum are stud pitchers!!!!!
Try again, my friend.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jan 7, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
Tampa Minor Leaguers
Can we hope for Josh Sale and McGee/Moore/Barnes?
Auto racing writer, SB Nation Indiana. Because in 49 other states, it's just sports!
Josh Sale
is better than Archer so I doubt we will get that lucky
I don't know much about Moore.
Can anyone tell us?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
From Fangraphs:
An eighth-round steal, Moore has posted crazy (and oddly consistent) strikeout numbers in three minor league seasons of 12.84, 12.75, and 12.88 K/9. His walk rate, though, rose from 3.15 in ’08 in short-season ball to 5.12 BB/9 in ’09 at low-A ball. Moore made up for the walks by not allowing many hits: just 86 in 123.0 innings of work. The southpaw did not allow a homer to a left-handed batter and posted a 71.2% ground-ball rate in limited innings. His overall ground-ball rate was 45.8%. Moore has a huge upside, but the loss of control in ’09 is worrisome.
This is from a year ago.
And here’s his Fangraph page.
Yes it does. BTW, have you seen a source yet that Matt Moore is included?
That would certainly make this trade more appealing.
Here’s what Sickels wrote a few weeks ago:
2) Matt Moore, LHP, Grade A: Best left-handed pitching prospect in baseball not named Aroldis.
If that's true...
… and Moore is included, that would essentially replace Archer.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Looks like I jumped the gun there...
Fernando Perez is the only other name in the deal. From MLBTR:
11:23am: Fernando Perez is going to the Cubs, according to Miles. The 27-year-old outfielder has a .234/.301/.351 line in 107 big league plate appearances. He hit .223/.280/.299 in 426 plate appearances at Triple-A last year.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
Yeah. I said earlier I would revise my comments if more pieces were added.
I’m coming around on it if Matt Moore is 100% included. In fact, I think I like it if Moore is the guy. I still haven’t seen confirmation though.
That’s some serious praise from Sickels. Almost like a better Archer (higher strike out rate, similar control problems).
He's not, as far as we know. Someone was joking lower in this thread.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Yeah, I amended my comments elsewhere in here when I realized that wasn't serious.
There’s no way he’s in this trade.
Fangraphs on Garza
They like him, but think you can get just as much production a lot cheaper.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/matt-garza-is-aaron-harang/
This is awful.
This is the cherry on top of the horrendous signing/trading float that is Jim Hendry. It is official and I don’t care what the lemmings say, this deal is atrocious. I guess at least we aren’t the Washington Redskins front office. Glass is half full.
"I don't know what the big deal about Crackerjack is"
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Jan 7, 2011 10:33 AM CST reply actions
"Just say no........"
This team can not win the division by just retooling and keeping the core players they have. Hendry, just push back from the table and walk away. You don’t have to do this.
Garza is a good pitcher and he currently comes cheap, but for goodness sakes the Cubs need an infusion of young talented players to have any chance to win in the next few years.
Does anyone else see a physical and pitching resemblance between Garza and Matt Clement? Garza to me is pretty much a healthy Matt Clement.
Everyone take a deep breath...
Other than Nolasco-Pinto, there is not a Cub prospect Hendry has dealt that has tuned into an above-average MLB player. I would rather get a high-caliber MLB player now, who does not have a history of injuries, that “potential”.
However, a 5 player deal, with a potential “ace” coming back? On a team that will be struggling to win 75 games?
This will save money for next year when Z is gone, and if played right could be a good thing.
Again, we will all see.
How on earth will this SAVE money?!
It seems like it costs something like $10M MORE money.
Having Archer in the rotation would save money.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Also, some bad news for you - Z isn't gone next year.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
But Silva, Fukudome, Grabow, and a couple others are.
The only big $$ we still have committed beyond 2011 will be Soriano, Ramirez, and Zambrano. Garza could still be the first piece to the puzzle of the 2012 rotation. Just saying.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Really?
Well the Cubs sure as hell won’t be picking that up then.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Not mutual.
Per Cots:
12:$16M club option ($2M buyout)
full no-trade clause 2007-10, $1M assignment bonus if traded
2012 option becomes guaranteed if Ramirez:
wins one MVP in 2007-11, or
places 2nd or 3rd in MVP vote twice in 2007-11, or
wins LCS MVP once in 2007-11, or
is an All Star 3 times in 2007-11, or
is traded & Ramirez exercises 2011 option
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
UPDATE:
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5998431
Looks like we added Fuld and they added another minor leaguer..
Have you guys even heard of Chris Archer before he was named #1 in the farm system this year?
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
I forgot about the DeRosa deal! You didn't know anything about him though
and how much upside he had.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
actually we did
at the time he was the high upside guy. Turned out we were right
by CalCalender on Jan 7, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Really, what was he ranked last year? I'm just curious.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
i want to say
top ten but I could be wrong
He was not in the top ten.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
Oh no moron?
Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus ranked him #8 last year.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9978
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
Baseball America
had him at #15
I had him at #13.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
I do trust you opinion Josh
You’re probably the most knowledgable poster on this site…….but ranking prospects is all based on opinion.
Either way, Archer didn’t just appear out of thin air in 2010.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, I don't deny that
I felt awkward making prospect lists until I realized everyone else does too.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
You are correct. #8 last year.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
If you are referring to me
I started following him since May 2010.
Do I pass?
And no I'm referring to the Cub fans as a whole because this love for Archer is stunning to me.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
I know, right?
We’re all nuts because a guy that Baseball America ranked #1 in a system that is ranked overall #8 was traded.
Who cares that Jim Callis credits Archer for having the best fastball and slider in the system?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Andrew Cashner > Chris Archer
And in all probability he’s likelier to be the TOR power arm it’s become assumed Archer would become.
Archer was probably the best sell high guy in the system. I really like the arm and thought he was a steal when we got him, but back when the Cubs got him I thought he fit the profile of a really good bullpen arm rather than this #2 starter stuff I’ve been hearing. I really, really do not mind losing him for a proven MLB starter in his 20’s.
Of courrse this
is a valid point to many. Particularly those holding on to Mark DeRosa.
Umm, yes?
He was acquired in one of the more discussed trades in recent Cub memory. The DeRo trade was debated about pretty intensely. I remember at the time Archer being described as a kid with great stuff that could make bats miss, but had control issues. The upside was always there as far as I can recall.
Yes, literally from the moment we acquired him.
It was kind of a big deal. Does no one remember anything around here?!
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Yes, absolutely!
You think we are a bunch of idiots?
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jan 7, 2011 2:27 PM CST up reply actions
I like it
But of course some people are still upset that Felix Pie is gone, hanging on to him really paid off, didn’t it?
"Boycott the Cub Convention! This team sucks!"
why do you like it?
Garza = Randy Wells. Randy Wells is nice to have but you dont need to trade alot of talent for him
You are joking, right?
Hot Time In Old Town SB Nation's blog for Chicago Fire, Soccer, & Chicago History
by Tweed Thornton on Jan 7, 2011 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
That's actually a pretty good point.
Hendry has been burned in recent years by his unwillingness to trade the likes of Pie and Rich Hill. Trading them in 2006-07 would have caused a riot, too.
I’m still undecided/leaning toward not liking this move. But it’s interesting that Hendry (for once) traded a prospect at possible peak value.
Pie is a different case
He should have been traded if Piniella didn’t like him before Piniella drove his value to nothing.
I’m not blaming him for Hill. No one saw that coming.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Think about those rumored deals though.
Rich Hill—at a time—would have netted Erik Bedard (back when that meant something, but was a true TOR).
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
Intrepid
beat reporter Paul Sullivan is hot on the case
Hey now we have LOTS of roster space
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:44 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
FYI we now have to dump one starter and find a 5th OF
Cubs can probably dumpster dive for a right handed bench bat for 5th OF. Gorzo to the Mets for what?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
How far off the majors was Archer?
2 years? 6 months?
My impressions of this deal are settling by the minute. Hendry is just saying “Screw this losing crap… Let’s just win.” Okay whatever, let’s see how you dismantle Albert Pujols and Ryan Braun, Mr. Garza, and then I’ll sit back and be impressed in November.
Think of it this way. We traded DeRosa for Archer, so basically we’ve traded DeRosa for Garza. Sounds fair.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
"Screw this losing crap... Let's just win."
Yeah, because that’s a strategy that has been successful.
We traded DeRosa ...
while trading our only decent backup third baseman as the 2007-09 window was closing for Garza.
If not for Lee...
I’d agree with you. Either way, this team isn’t a competitor with Garza. Turning a 75 win team into a 78 win team doesn’t do anything for me. To me, Garza isn’t a necessary piece to the next Cubs World Series contender. I hope I’m wrong since there’s no choice in it one way or another.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
Well, Garza is under team control for three seasons, isn't he?
He could be a contributor in 2012-13.
Yes, but a lot of assumptions there
All I’m assuming is Lee and Archer’s continued health and improvement. As of right now, there’s nobody who thinks we’re not selling low on them as it is… but then we’re also assuming there wouldn’t have been a better option than Garza available in the next two years. With all the pitchers getting traded these days, it’s hard to see that being the case. And the ultimate downside is if Garza performs like a #2, it’s still not going to be enough to make the Cubs a winner in 2011 and will just make him more expensive… when they could cash in all of these trade chips next year when the team is closer to contending for more sure assets or at least ones that won’t break the Cubs’ budget.
And if he doesn’t perform like a #2, then it’s a bad trade! Pick either edge of the sword you like.
I don’t haaaaate the trade, just the timing.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
Meaning not this year
when the Cubs are barely going to get to 80 wins even with Garza, Pena and whatever other TB castoffs they can come up with.
I would have rather went after the 2012 version of Matt Garza.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
Also...
I don’t think TB was immersed in other options to trade Matt Garza or any of their other pitchers. If some miracle happens and the Cubs end up in the race a couple months into the season, they still could have made this trade… or another similar trade for these prospects. (the injury hypothetical is completely canceled out by the hypothetical that Garza’s arm could fall off, so don’t try going there either)
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by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
But...
… Garza is team-controlled for three years. Maybe NEXT year, he’s a big piece of a winning team.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
who cares?
next year there will be other pitchers… as we’ve seen in every off season and mid-season known to baseball fans. Still makes the trade now pointless.
You’re asking for a lot of hope and a lot of things to go right for a trade right now to be necessary.
Don’t forget that he might be team controlled, but he’s not cost controlled. They’re still going to have to pay him next year for what he does this year.
When you include giving up the prospects and major-league ready backups, however you want to say that, there’s not enough specific to Matt Garza to make this deal a necessity for January 2011.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
He's not cost-controlled.
But he won’t require a long-term contract after 2011. That does improve the situation, IMO.
I love how everybody thinks this team will not play well next year....
Last year’s team QUIT on Pinella and he QUIT on them and they were phoning it in till Quade took over and we saw what they did. Had the same team, and turned them around and had one of the best records in MLB over that last 30 game stretch…..let’s wait and see what quade and his staff can do before we pronounce this team dead in the water
I understand.
I’m not a huge fan of it myself. But I do like that Hendry is mixing things up and not trading top prospects after they’ve bottomed out.
If this works out in the Cubs favor — IF, people — then Hendry will look very good in a year. If not, he’ll be gone.
This is really Hendry’s ass on the line.
Agreed...
without getting into whether he should have a line to put his ass on.
You can also look at it as hamstringing the next GM.
I can see the reasons to do it, but I’m not a fan of Matt Garza and I’m not going to immediately call him a great pitcher just because he puts on a Cubs uniform.
If he’s the best they could do for Archer and Lee, I would have passed. And as I’ve stated, it doesn’t really matter whether he succeeds or not.
I’m almost hoping he doesn’t succeed next year and then signs for cheaper and starts performing in 2012… and I hate that kind of thinking.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
You can't look at it that way
Think of it this way. We traded DeRosa for Archer, so basically we’ve traded DeRosa for Garza. Sounds fair.
Let’s say you invested $10 last year in a stock that went up 400X. Then you turned around and sold the stock for a roll of quarters. Do you think that was a good trade?
by Shanghai Badger on Jan 7, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Boo hoo...
Just let me be in denial, OKAY? I deserve at least that much.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
Wouldn't it be hilarious if Archer completely sucked this year and fell like Vitters?
What would happen then? Would Cub fans be pissed for not trading him when we had a chance?
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
But
You can’t use hindsight like that. The deal is bad NOW. Garza could die in his sleep next month…it doesn’t change anything about the present.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
If Vitters EVER put together a season like Archer's 2010, you may have a point.
As it stands, however, you don’t.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I can't wait when Casey Coleman has a great year next year and is the number 1 prospect the following year.
DON’T TRADE HIM! DON’T TRADE HIM! HE’S NUMBER 1 SO HE’S UNTRADEABLE!!!
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
You realize that you're using hypotheticals to argue with things that actually happened, right?
I mean, maybe they’ll all get hit by buses tomorrow. That doesn’t make this trade any more or less defensible.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Coleman isn't a prospect
anymore because he’s pitched too many innings. So stop it.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
A season like Archer’s 2010…half a year at AA in which he had BB/9 of 5.0 and a K/BB rate of 1.72. I thought Archer was a nice haul for DeRosa, but the way he is being discussed on this site would make one believe he’s the second coming of Tim Lincecum. So, you trade a guy who had a decent year that looks worse when you drill down into the stats, a 20 year old good fielding SS who plays a position that is already filled, and decent roster filler, and you get back a very solid AL East starter who plays with serious intensity and will give you a consistent 200+ innings. Could Hendry have made a better trade? Probably, but it’s not nearly the disaster that so many of you chicken littles have made it out to be.
Eliminate that pesky Dominatrix in one easy step. Step 1: Tell her you're a Cubs fan!
Yeah, I've been a Hendry hater, but I really don't get the crazy hate going on
At least with Garza you’re getting a sure thing. From what I’ve read today, none of those prospects sound like can’t miss guys. Plus, I totally forgot that Archer was the guy we got back in the DeRo trade. So, Hendry basically turned DeRo into Garza. I’m fine with that, even if Archer turns out to be really good
Until Keith Bogans is taken out of the starting lineup, it's: Tommy Del Thibo
by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 7, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
Right.
Some of the same people bitching about this are the people who yell, “Why does Hendry hang on to his prospects so long and not trade them at peak value?”
Now you’re trading some at peak value. Yes, it’s a risk. But I think one will pay off.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Yep
I’m at peace with this one. And, to be honest, I’m pretty excited for the season now. Which definitely hasn’t been the case up until now
Until Keith Bogans is taken out of the starting lineup, it's: Tommy Del Thibo
by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 7, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
Please stop using the "peak value" thing.
We don’t know what Archer’s “peak value” is/will be. This might be it. It might not. Same for Garza.
It is possible that Hendry just pulled the deal of the century. It is more likely he lost a deal in a furious and futile attempt to win now.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
No prospect is can't miss
but they still have value. I feel a package like this could have gotten us Greinke or close to A-Gon even…Garza just isn’t worth this.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
I like Garza's makeup better than Greinke for a team like the Cubs
I think he’ll be a great fit here. The one guy that I’m kinda miffed we didn’t get was Gonzales. He would’ve been great
Until Keith Bogans is taken out of the starting lineup, it's: Tommy Del Thibo
by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 7, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
You mean the part of his makeup
that makes him closer to a Zambrano type hothead? Garza is always described as “fiery” and has been talked to about trying to keep his head.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Milwaukee
has impetus to make a trade like this. They can take this kind of risk because they’re a lot closer to competing than the Cubs as constructed. The Cubs need two more of these kind of deals to even be a Wild Card contender. Next year would have been different.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
I was making fun of the idiotic what if game being played here
Of course this trade could turn out to be the most brilliant trade ever. I doubt that will happen.
Proven or unproven, which would you take?
Unless Chris Archer is a Strasburg/ Halladay type of prospect, you do it.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
What if Archer blows his arm out?
That’d be really hilarious.
by Pre on Jan 7, 2011 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
What if Garza does?
We’d all be laughing at that one.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
ouch
The posts are coming so fast, my screen is jumping arond so much, I’m gettiing a headache trying to read all this. Ha
Hak-Ju Lee
I understand he has been hyped about for quite sometime but he’s now 20 years old. From 2009 at Bosie to 2010 at Peoria, his OPS dropped from .820 to .704. He’s not old but he isn’t a spring chicken at that level either. I’m not too concerned about seeing him go
Hot Time In Old Town SB Nation's blog for Chicago Fire, Soccer, & Chicago History
Wow he is 20. Definately a wash out.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
He’s not a wash out for sure but he’s not sure thing either. You would have to agree on that, no?
Hot Time In Old Town SB Nation's blog for Chicago Fire, Soccer, & Chicago History
by Tweed Thornton on Jan 7, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
He is a top SS prospect
Those are rare. All evaluations are that he is improving and could if he had stayed in the system potentially have forced the Cubs to move Castro to 2B.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
The Dodgers held onto their top SS prospect Chin Lung Hu for years and allowed his trade value to plummet. There are a lot of good fielding SS prospects, but that fact is that very few of them ever hit (see: Bocock, Brian)
Eliminate that pesky Dominatrix in one easy step. Step 1: Tell her you're a Cubs fan!
Most everyone was fine with
Lee, Chirinos and another piece for Garza.
When Archer was, stupidly, included… there was no need to also include Lee.
You don’t say “ok, you didn’t like the offer on the table? Fine… I’ll add my #1 prospect and not pull anyone else back.”
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
And did you think
the Rays would give up an elite pitcher who is cost controlled for three more years, and who is only 27 years old, for FREE???
Not at all.
But when are they trading us an ELITE pitcher? There isn’t one in today’s transaction.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
You are right
there wasn’t an elite pitcher in this deal. Going either direction.
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by Section 312 on Jan 7, 2011 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
Of course there isn't.
But given the price in prospects the Cubs paid, there should’ve been.
And there’s just as much of a chance Archer becomes an ELITE pitcher as there is for Garza.
Fangraphs has Garza’s comparables as Steve Trachsel-esque guys (can’t find the link right now, but someone else posted it earlier).
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
At first I was pretty happy...
…when I read it was Guyer, Lee, and Chirinos. But then I figured out it also included Archer. I’m not down.
It’s like Hendry is sacrificing the organizations future to save his job for a few more years. Why didn’t we pull of the trade for AGon, but this is okay?
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
I love our
knee jerk reactions. lol
All I can say is I was so excited when Hendry signed Soriano.
“World Series bound!”
IF Chris Archer pans out – at LEAST he will be in the AL.
BEsides, I am sure the Cubs have another catcher they can convert in the minors that will be just as good. ;)
Garza vs. Marcum
How different are they? Brewers traded one prospect for Marcum.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
There were three teams
“heavily bidding” apparently.
Not justifying – just saying.
You would have to compare both of the above head-to-head against AL East opponents.
GArza pitched in pennant runs and the Playoffs.
Just sayin’
Unfortunately the Cubs won't be able to
utilize any of Garza’s pennant-run experience in the next two years.
They traded their 2nd best prospect!
Oh shutter! Cub fans can’t fathom the thought of trading prospects for good players!
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
And the Cubs traded two
That is my question. I’m fine with trading prospects but the question is did the Cubs overpay?
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I honestly don't think so.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
lol shudder*
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions
And the Cubs traded their # 1 and #4 prospect
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
#1 prospect - a guy that went from unnoticed to #1 in a year.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
So what?
A guy with great stuff finally started piecing it together and put together a hell of a season, and that’s not legitimate?
like I said before, wait till Casey Coleman has a Archer type of year.
Next thing you know, Cub fans will be begging Hendry to not trade him.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
If I recall Castro shot up to #1 after a great year
Seems to have worked out.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah he went from 7 to 1. Archer when from nothing to 1.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
Or...as I stated above....
He went from #8 to #3—according to Kevin Goldstein.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
fabulous point.
the difference is the brewers traded Lowrie when the market for pitching was cheaper back in November. The Brewers win this offseason for sure, but Brewers fans are equally as miffed at Melvin for trading Lowrie.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
I'm not conceding the Brewers won anything this offseason.
Greinke is a good pitcher (or has been), but IMHO he’s not the type of guy you want to build a rotation around. I did not want him in the Wrigley Field pressure cooker. Milwaukee may be somewhat similar to KC in terms of market size, but the point is, I need to see Greinke up close to really form an opinion of him. Coming from the AL Central, most of what I’ve seen of him is simply stat lines and SportsCenter highlights.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
I've seen Greinke pitch 15-20 times
in the last two seasons. And I can count on one hand the number of pitchers I have seen with equal or better stuff. People on this site are going to be really eating their words if Grienke stays healthy next year.
"We love them, We mourn for them, Unlucky boys of Red" - Morrissey
"Giggs gets past Viera, past Dixon, who comes back at him, it's a wonderful run from GIGGS!!!" - Martin Tyler
Nucks Misconduct's Prodigal Son, Chief Curmudgeon, Chief Hunk, Chief Charmer and Chief Drama Queen.
"I think about it still, almost every day," Joyce says. "I don't want to be known as Jim Joyce, the guy that blew the perfect game. But I think that's inevitable." Why? "Because I'm Jim Joyce," he says, "the umpire who blew the perfect game."
by Section 312 on Jan 7, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
Marcum is two years older than Garza.
Garza in the last 3 years – almost 600 IPs
Marcum in the last 3 years – completely out in 2009 almost 350 IPs
So other than consistency and age, there isn’t much difference between the two I guess.
Hot Time In Old Town SB Nation's blog for Chicago Fire, Soccer, & Chicago History
by Tweed Thornton on Jan 7, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
Selling high
Never easy/comfortable to trade away multiple interesting prospects, but at least we are moving guys on when their value is high (for a change).
Archer is the only one i’m worried about losing, and a lot of reports have him ending up as a bullpen arm anyway.
I'm fine with trading prospects
The question I’m wrestling with is whether the Cubs overpaid. As I posted above the Brewers gave up one top prospect for Marcum. The Cubs traded two but got back some other prospects. I’m waiting for those names.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Again, if you
can see how the pitchers both performed against the Yankees and Red Sox (and how Marcum performed against the Rays), you could have a clearer picture.
As much as Hendry made this shitty team more competitive, he also potentially coutered the moves made by the closest rivals.
Well looking at 2010
Both got crushed by the Yankees. Marcum did respectable against the Red Sox. Garza didn’t.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Bruce Miles says one of the TB prospects is Fernando Perez
no word on the pitcher.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
Switch-hitting, speedy outfielder
Older than Guyer, but with some major league experience. Possible 4th/5th outfielder this year, at best.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
The only possibilities that would get me excited
aren’t really possibilities at all. Anyone worth noting would have been named by now.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
Perez is a creative writing major from Columbia U.
Also, he wrecked his wrist in a dive in Spring training 2009, and was out for most of the season. When he came back in September, they realized he had torn his left labrum at the same time (he throws righty). So 2010 was a recovery season for him.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
He can take over Fuld's spot
as the smart college grad.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
AAAA Player
… this deal is a real shitburger
by dblplay on Jan 7, 2011 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He's minor league roster filler
Non-prospect.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
A little context.
We still can’t hit in the clutch.
Senior Writer and Editor for SBNation's Nascar Ranting & Raving (http://www.4ever3blog.com/)
Or have a leadoff man.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 7, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
Well...
At least we didn’t sign Werth. That’s much more Hendry’s style.
Don't worry.
If he had the cash, he probably would have.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jan 7, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
That would be the look of disapproval.
SWL is a redditor.
What is a horse shoe? What does a horse shoe do? Are there any horse socks? Is anybody listening to me?
That would even things a little
Young but apparently throws hard. 208 K’s in 144 innings last season.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
that was my wishful thinking
it ain’t gonna happen
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
If it did happen
my knee would jerk in the other direction.
That would be painful.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
by cubzfan on Jan 7, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Jeez, all you posters are driving me crazy!
You can’t judge a deal until a year or two down the road. We got an established pitcher who has been healthy throughout his career. If he wins 15-18 games (very possible) we are a better team.
Prospects are just that. Will they ever make a MLB roster? Will they perform? That’s why you trade them because of questions.
If the minor league players we received in return become a couple of our top prospects in a few years, then what we have done are get rid of a couple of players that may not have helped us this year or next and would have sat in our farm system being PROSPECTS! If what we got in return pans out, this is a good move.
Time will tell BCB friends. Don’t judge this deal yet, you’re all just guessing the future and that is a fools waste of time.
We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 for Hall of Fame.
by mrcubsfan on Jan 7, 2011 11:11 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
If the Cubs overpaid then you can judge it now
Prospects have value. Brewers gave up one for Marcum. Cubs gave up two for Garza.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I think Garza is a better pitcher than Marcum.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Based on what? Stats? Have you ever watched either of them pitch?
Seriously, what are you basing that on?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Higher career WAR.
More consistency. Playoff experience. Younger. (Marcum will be 30 at the end of 2011.)
A lot healthier, too.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
by Al Yellon on Jan 7, 2011 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
Higher career WAR over how many more seasons?
Marcum missed a year. And then last year, proceeded to have a better year than any in Garza’s career.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Everyone does...
but we gave up A LOT more to get him.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
Other than health I'm not so sure
Both have been in the AL East and Marcum’s 2010 was better than Garza’s.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I disagree
These prospects have real value right now and this group was worth more than Garza. Hendry got flustered when he found out it was getting down to the wire and he blew his load.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
I am more upset
about Lee being included in the deal. I guess we will find out in about 2 years whether this deal is good or not. But as of right now, I do not like this deal at all. To put Archer and Lee in a package, most have consider the Cubs two top prospects, and to get a pitcher back that is maybe a 2 but most likely a 3 starter is not good. Hell, Hellickson, Price and Schields are all better than Garza.
At this time, this move is not a good move. Hendry and Ricketts deserve each other.
You talk about finding out in 2 years whether this deal is good or not
But you’re jumping to conclusions about Hellickson being better than Garza. He’s pitched 10 damn games in the big leagues!!!
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
Why are people liking this?
The Cubs were’nt very good last year, and if you look at the rotation, they need to replace 117 innings of 3.69 ERA ball from Lilly, as well as get the same decent performance out of Silva, to just be the same team they were last season. Lets say Garza is like Lilly and Silva regresses, which he most def will: the staff will be damn near the same in terms of productivity, and the team won’t be better for it. But whatever, throw away your best young players for a morale booster that really is not much more than a lateral move.
What happened to all that stuff Rickets said about\ “rebuilding through the farm system?”
by dakoose on Jan 7, 2011 11:11 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I don't really trust the Cubs' opinions of their prospects anyway
so losing a few to improve pitching is fine with me.
Getting a solid MLB pitcher with post season experience
We’re getting a fine major league pitcher who eats up innings. Garza can get us to our late inning relievers almost every day he pitches. He also has pitched in playoff games. He also fits in as a strike out pitcher.
I like this trade. It means we are going to put a decent team on the field this year. We will make a run for the division this year.
Prepare to be flamed, bk,
How dare you say such blasphemy!
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Bruce ...
do you think Hendry has EVER done anything wrong? Seriously.
The Pierre deal was abysmal
And in retrospect, so was the Bradley deal.
I think he wins a hell of a lot more than he loses, eg.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
Fine. That's your opinion, eg, and I respect that.
I think you’re wrong.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
I'm with you, NBF.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 7, 2011 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
Retrospect? B.S.
A 3 year deal to Bradley was abysmal the day it was signed. No one REPEAT no one else was going to give that troublemaker who burned bridges with at least half the teams in the league a 3 year deal.
It was idiotic the day it was signed.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Where's Josh?
And who are the damn prospects?!!!!
by SouthWabashSoul on Jan 7, 2011 11:15 AM CST reply actions
I'm here
but I live on the West Coast and I get up later. Plus, it’s easy to get lost in everything on this thread.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
Irrational Love of Prospects...
…I don’t get it.
Garza is in his prime, is coming to the NL, and can be kept under control for 3 years.
We gave up 2 young stud prospects and two prospects that are too old to still be in the minors for a very good pitcher. Good move.
by wordtrey on Jan 7, 2011 11:16 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
And the Brewers gave up one for possibly the same pitcher.
Just saying….
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
It couldn't have less to do with irrationality.
Hendry just got pantsed.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Garza makes the Cubs a better team for the next three years at least.
If you can’t agree on that, you are what you are.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 11:18 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Is he the only asset...
that would make the team better in the next three years? If you don’t agree that the team is at best the third best team in the NL Central in 2011, then you are what you are.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
Dude, stuff happens over the course of a baseball season.
Breakouts, injuries. Fluky good/bad luck. If the Padres can make a run at the NL West with A-Gonz and change, the Cubs can compete in what is a still a wide open NL Central.
When you're counting on ...
stuff happens/baseball’s a funny game/they don’t play games on paper arguments, you’re in trouble.
I'm just saying the 2011 Cubs are far from being a complete failure.
I don’t expect them to win the division or even contend into August.
I /am/ saying this is a good move for the future and not totally counterproductive now.
To me, if a team isn't contending in August.
It’s a complete failure.
Only way to redeem that I guess is to land a top 5 pick in the draft.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
And when you start where the Padres started...
you end up where the Padres ended up… not making the playoffs. And as of right now, they have less than nothing to show for it.
I want luck, flukes, whatever you want to call it to push the Cubs from NL Central favorites to World Series winners… not from fourth place to hoping they get in the Wild Cart hunt.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not saying that's how you should build a team.
I’m just saying 2011 is far from a lost cause for the Cubs, and that by my estimation we are trending upward. Some dead weight will be gone soon (Fukudome, Ramirez, etc.) and we will have payroll flexibility as well as still a number of good young players coming up through the system with which to build a true championship contender.
If you can read I didn't say he made them a championship contender. They are a better team.
Archer and Lee are at least 2-4 years away, and there still isn’t a guarantee of how effective they were going to be.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Lee is easily 2 years away.
Archer could have been on the 2011 Cubs.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Why would you ever bother
making this trade if you didn’t think it was the difference between x place and playoff spot? You don’t worry about making your team three games better when you have to make up 12-15.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
Well, if Hendry really does believe Garza's one of the top 10 pitchers in baseball
Then he probably does think he’ll be the difference.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
He could be the 10 places above the best pitcher in baseball...
and not make enough impact to make up 10 wins on this team. And that’s not including that the Cubs had 6 decent options for starting pitchers before they got him, so it’s not like he’s replacing someone who’s a negative.
If they made this deal one year in the future, I’d be doing cartwheels… but not this year.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
That is absurdly simplistic
If the Cubs had traded their top 10 prospects would you say the same. Archer and Lee were
high value prospects who may either have made significant contributions to the team in the coming years or been used as trade chips in other trades that did not give up so much for one very good but not ace pitcher.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
The argument is that this current Cubs' team is littered
with good/very good pitchers. The need is for a top of the rotation starter.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
Needed a pitcher
It looks like the Rays sold high on Garza when you tally what the Cubs will be paying and what the Rays will be paying. In the future the Cubs might have the opportunity to trade for an ace and their trade partner might accept a similarly talented package of different prospects, but the $ gap would very likely be wider. The Rays didn’t trade who they consider their top two starters. Archer, Lee, et al aren’t locks for success in the majors either.
Better than what?
Better than having Ted Lilly in 2011?
Better than having Chris Archer in 2012-2013…. and 2014-16?
You don’t know that EITHER of those statements are true.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
... I said they're a better team.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
Better than WHAT?
Better than Pittsburgh?
Better than Glenbard North?
Better than they were last year?
Seriously, give us a frame of reference here, or it’s difficult to point out the veracity of your statement.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
They would have better than last year without Garza
That is far too low a standard.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 5:05 PM CST up reply actions
By replacing Lilly with Garza?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jan 7, 2011 5:15 PM CST up reply actions
Garza is eight years younger than Lilly
and cheaper.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
He is younger but not necessarily better or much cheaper
Lilly will make 20 million in the next two years. Garza will likely make 16 to 20 if he is good and I don’t want to think if he is bad. I get that younger is always better, but I am willing to bet Lilly is the better pitcher in the next two years which is not exactly a fair fight as he will play in a pitchers park with better defense behind, but I think he will still be better.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 6:15 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not, Jess
Odds are Garza will be better because he’s younger, and more valuable because he’s cheaper.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
Good trade for the Cubs...
I’m in the Archer as a reliever crowd, and either way I think his value is at an all time high right now. Same for RC…
I’m moderately sad by losing Guyer/Lee, but Lee is years away…Anyone mad IMO is overrated the crap out of prospects.
Garza should/could be a good #2 in the NL…not to mention he’s an early or even pre-prime pitcher with some upside left IMO.
by SenorGato on Jan 7, 2011 11:19 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Logical, but not the only view (not that you said it was)
You have seen evidence and are convinced that Archer will end up as a good reliever, and that Garza can be even better than his performance has shown. Therefore, you think this is a good deal.
Others are convinced that Archer is likely to be at least as valuable as Garza (6 years of control to 3), if more risky, and that Garza’s reputation is overblown because of his team’s strength. Thus, they don’t like the trade.
As I understand it, that’s the debate. If we all accepted each others premises, we would have less argument about the conclusion. But there is debate over the premises.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
People are missing
When they said they’d only do this if it was going for it this year. He’s not a free agent for 3 years. They have 3 years to have him as a piece of the puzzle.
And frankly I’ve waited 42 years to see this team win the world series. if Garza is a huge piece of a world series team while he’s here the prospects included could sweep all the awards for the next 20 years.
Also this is going to soun weird. My Mom was the one to tell me this happened as I haven’t had the radio on and she has WGN on and I called her and she told me the Cubs got Garza.
Every time my Mom is the one to tell me a move was made it has turned out good.
Formerly known as cubstoseriesby100. Thanks Al for letting me change my outdated screenname.
Fire Hendry
This is unreal . All Hendry had to do was wait until next year and wait for all that money to come off the books . Cubs would get a look at these guys in Sept and they go from there. Archer will be at the very least another Nolasco , shipped away for a mediocre player . Cubs still finish 3rd if not 4th this year and Hendry traded a huge chunk of the farm for this guy . THey must be laughing like mad in TAmpa.
Archer will be at the very least another Nolasco
Where’s your proof of this?
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Come on, Al.
There’s no way to have proof of that. Do you have proof that Garza will be better than Marcum or a right-handed Ted Lilly?
Al's got the classic "post as I say, not as I post" approach, doesn't he....
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Call it a hunch. I’ve read that archer has the best slider in the system and averages a K per inning .
I mean, no doubt he has great stuff.
But that doesn’t come close to guaranteeing success. That’s why your statement is foolish.
Hendry is horrible . EVERY move he made after the 09 season was undoing every move he made after the 08 season . Moving Gregg , Davis , Bradley , Heilman . That is so counter productive .
Has anyone here ever argued the opposite of that?
Seriously? Has anyone ever said that the ‘08-09 offseason was a good piece of work by Hendry? Overall, that has to be one of the worst offseasons a Major League GM has ever had. As I’ve said many times, I’m not a big Hendry fan by any stretch, but by the same token, I want the Cubs to win regardless of who is GM. Too many people here seem to want the Cubs to lose in 2011 so Hendry will be fired.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Around here? Oh hell yes.
It took a solid year before anyone was willing to admit that offseason was a clusterbomb. I’m not sure that some people have EVER come around to that opinion.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Matt Garza's minor league K/9 was 10.03.
Archer’s was 9.10.
Just a little perspective.
This is an interesting tidbit...
"Wait, are you saying I'm a sunshine-pumping, koolaid-drinking, Soriano-loving, rainbow-rising, unicorn-riding, double-clutching, Sweet Lou-backing, Hendry-supporting, hey hey whaddya saying, Cubs are going all the waying, glass is overflowing, Rothschild is all-knowing, Cubs fan? - ballhawk
I also read....
that Pie and Patterson were the best Cubs prospects to ever come down the pike. How did that work out? Look, sometimes prospects pan out and sometimes they don’t. Maybe Archer will be a great pitcher. But part of building a farm system is the idea that sometimes the good ones get traded for proven Major League talent. The deal is made, and we got a good pitcher in return. Get over it. We can all judge how the trade worked out in August or September.
I’ll grant you, Archer seems to have a lot of upside. Can’t understand all the fascination with Lee. He has played decently in the low minor leagues. Forgive me if I’m not salivating over his potential. In fact, I’ve gotten my hopes up so many times for Cubs prospects only to be frustrated, that even with Archer, my attitude has always been “I’ll believe it when I see it”. Sometimes I’m right, sometimes I’m wrong, but I just don’t get the FML attitude of some people over this trade. But for those who think a large market team like the Cubs should build in the same way the Rays and Twins do, there is no use arguing. The minors are important, don’t get me wrong. But we’re a major market team; we can build in other ways too.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
It would have been nice to see
Pie develop instead of wasting him on the bench when called up young.
Pie could have been at least a touch above league average.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
Where is your proof that Brett Jackson and Trey McNutt
will be bonafide MLB stars? You hinted at that already in this thread.
To be fair Al, when you play this game, you have to play it both ways.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jan 7, 2011 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
The problem with this thinking
is that it was Hendry who traded for Archer in the first place.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
Not going to miss Lee
Archer…might sting in a couple of years if he can improve his control. That being said, the trade really isn’t as terrible as many are making it out to be. What’s maddening is the timing of this trade. We are not ready to contend, meaning this trade basically becomes void. Oh Hendry….
If we are very lucky this trade works out for BOTH sides
but right now I have nightmares of Archer and Lee haunging the Cubs by 2014 while Garza is a perfectly good pitcher on a team with a lot of holes.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
I am so haunted already I can't even type straight.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
I like this deal
I like this deal alot!!!!!!!!!!!!! This deal comes down to Archer for Garza. Archer is a good prospect but he’s no #1 pitcher period. Say what you want but Hendry went for the for sure thing and got “at least” a #2 starter for the next 3 years. I can’t stand Hendry one bit but I back him 100% for this trade!
why is it ok
to forget about every other player involved in the deal.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
Do people realize that the Cubs
will really be in need of another solid middle infielder? Lee might not be that guy, but was the most likely internal candidate to fulfill that need in the future.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
You know
if you had stopped at Archer and Lee, then this deal would have been fine. Once you threw in Chrinos, it started to stray into the realm of overpaying.
I like Garza a great deal, but it looks like Hendry blinked. Not the worst trade in the world, but you can really start to see the makings of a few more seasons of middling success for the Cubs, given some of these moves.
by Damen Jackson on Jan 7, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Except
that Garza is NOT a “#2 at least”.
There is absolutely nothing in his profile that says he is more than a #2 at best, actually.
Add that with plenty of people thinking Archer could be a #1, with a floor of a #2-3… and you have a terrible deal.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
The City of Tampa I presume.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Damn, it's going to freaking suck seeing the next Roy Halladay pitch for the Rays in a couple years.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
Will someone create a new thread
just for everyone who’s pissed about this trade to rant about it. I’m sick of people failing to understand the value of prospects.
From Olney
@Buster_ESPN Another evaluator concurs with view of others: the Rays didn’t get much in the way of high-end prospects; more depth type guys than impact.
Garza won 15 games in the AL East. I keep repeating that to myself over and over :)
Scott Bora$ is satan.
by Canadian Cubs Fan on Jan 7, 2011 11:28 AM CST reply actions
Get past wins as a meaningful stat and you'll start to see why some people aren't sold on Garza as a stud.
He’ll have the AL East to NL Central switch going in his favor, but wins alone don’t paint the whole picture. They’re really pretty worthless.
Classic Case
OF Cub fans overvaluing our prospects. Their good with upside not elite..not even close to elite. Starting pitching is expensive and we gave up what we had to do to get a valuable SP.
But didn't the Brewers just give up one prospect
to get essentially the same pitcher? It isn’t just a question of whether the prospects have value but overpaying.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
People need to RELAX
Garza is gonna spank the NL this year. I’m really liking the idea of having him on the team
Until Keith Bogans is taken out of the starting lineup, it's: Tommy Del Thibo
by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 7, 2011 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
Awesome!
Finally a voice of reason. You mean we didn’t give up Seaver, Mantle, Ozzie Smith, and Johnny Bench?
"Boycott the Cub Convention! This team sucks!"
You can buy the same car as me for twice as much
but be happy to have a new car. I have a lot more money to buy other things :-)
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I like your effort....
but you’re wasting your time trying to talk sense into the “Prospects are the only way to build” crowd. To these people, we just traded Sandy Koufax, Part Deux, and that’s just all there is to it. As I said, maybe Archer will turn out to be good. But part of building the farm system is the realization from the get-go that some of the good ones will be good for someone else’s big league team. That’s part of the game.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
You can have this brand new Nissan Maxima...
Or choose the car behind door #1! It might be a Ferrari, but it also might be a Geo.
But the Brewers paid half the price for their chance.
I think Hendry overpaid.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I thought Lowrie
was the Brewers’ No. 1 prospect.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
I think that's a good analogy. But if I'm a billionaire, I take that chance 100% of the time.
What use do I have for a Nissan? I need cheap Ferraris. If it turns out to be a Geo behind the curtain, I’ll ship it to Pittsburgh and go buy another Ferrari.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Okay... it's a little different than that.
Cubs have a small amount of cash to work with, being billionaires doesn’t mean anything right now. They need the proven talent they can rely on, because if they get stuck with a Geo they’re in trouble.
All of the Geos and paying for nissans painted to look like Ferraris are what got us in trouble in the first place.
i want to know who we got besides Garza
that could be the saving grace, but i am not happy with this (as it is currently)
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Agreed
Without knowing who they are sending us how is it possible to evaluate the trade? Up in the middle, there’s talk of Matt Moore which balances it out at least a bit for those not liking the surrender of high prospects.
there is no way we're getting Matt Moore
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
I said that...
sorry to confuse people…I thought it was suck a ridiculous suggestion that no one would take it seriously.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
Saving grace for what...
Get out of your little tiny dream world that Cubs prospects are gonna all turn out and be Roy Halladay’s, Derek Jeter’s and Carlos Beltran’s. Not happening. We got a damn good pitcher here.
It seems rich so what are the Cubs thinking?
I have to think that the Cubs do not value either Chris Archer or Hak-Ju Lee as highly as most prospect list do. Maybe they do not see as much upside in Archer, who was picked in the 5th round and 12 picks behind Jeff Samardzija. Or they don’t see Lee as progressing to MLB.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
Good grief...
Do you think cost controlled 27 year old starters of Garza’s caliber can be had for free?
You missed my point
Some people (many here) think the Cubs are giving up too much and that Garza’s caliber is not as high as you think.
So I have to think that the Cubs do not consider one of those prospects as high as outside sources do.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Jan 7, 2011 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
So please tell me why the Brewers only traded one player for Marcum?
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I don't know...
there are plenty of people around here who would give up Randy Wells for a bag of doughnuts. And the two are more similar than dissimilar.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
LOL
Another year, another 365 days of Hendry whining. Utterly predictable and sad.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jan 7, 2011 11:33 AM CST reply actions
5th place!
Highest payroll in the league!
Take a bow, Jim Hendry, you deserve it!
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
You're so right. No one should criticize Hendry's work as GM - the results speak for themselves.
Eventually, you have to get tired of being wrong.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I like this:
“@Buster_ESPN Another evaluator concurs with view of others: the Rays didn’t get much in the way of high-end prospects; more depth type guys than impact.”
Suck it Rays! I’m all for this move.
Here's another comparison.
Remember when the Cubs gave up four guys for Rich Harden? Yes, people were excited about Harden, but “worried” about some of the people given up.
Here are the four given up: Josh Donaldson, Sean Gallagher, Matt Murton and Eric Patterson.
Where are those guys now? Not contributing for the A’s, anyway. Only Patterson has had some real MLB time, and he’s a backup at best.
Sean Gallagher — remember how good people thought he was going to be? How’d that work out?
Chris Archer looked good in the minor leagues for the Cubs. He was their No. 1 prospect by some accounts (Brett Jackson by others). But there are no guarantees he’ll be a good major league starting pitcher. None. And he won’t be for the Rays this year — their rotation is already set. He’ll be in Triple-A this year. I said I didn’t want to give up Archer; yes, I like this deal. I especially like it if Matt Moore is included.
Let’s wait and see.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
This is different.
Archer was the top prospect in the organization. None of the guys in the Harden trade were close to that.
Not according to many Hendry defenders.
Our system, by most accounts, has improved a lot — though it’s not elite.
Wasn't Gallagher close to that?
And not everyone agrees that Archer was No. 1. Some have Brett Jackson there.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Gallagher
didn’t have nearly as much upside imo
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
In the MSP Annual I did in 2008...
.. we ranked him No. 6, behind Pie, Soto, Colvin, Vitters and Samardzija.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
It did produce two solid major leaguers in Soto and Colvin.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Well my comment was more praise for how far I think the farm system has come since then.
I agree that Soto is solid, I’m still not sold on Colvin though. This will be a big year for him.
Here's what Baseball America said about Gallagher in 2008
The Future: In spring training, Gallagher will get the chance to win a spot as a No. 5 starter or long reliever. Spending most of 2008 at Triple-A as a 22-year-old wouldn’t be a setback, however. He has the makings of a No. 3 starter along the lines of Jon Lieber.
They ranked him as the #5 prospect. That is a little different than what they were saying about Archer (although I thought they were a little too optimistic on Archer, but just a little.)
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
Per Baseball America.
Sickels has him as No. 3 — under Trey McNutt.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
A few years ago, the Nationals top prospect was Collin Balester. A few years ago, the Cubs top prospect was Felix Pie. The term “top prospect” does not even come close to guaranteeing long-term (or short-term) success in MLB. I remember two guys in my 90s SOM keeper league almost killing each other over James Baldwin and Scott Ruffcorn, two “can’t-miss” prospects on the White Sox. Nobody is awaiting their Cooperstown ceremonies.
Get over Archer – he was a nice win for Hendry in the DeRosa trade, but he’s not invaluable by any means.
Eliminate that pesky Dominatrix in one easy step. Step 1: Tell her you're a Cubs fan!
A bigger difference
is that Harden had the chance to put that team over the top. I don’t see how the Garza trade does anything more than make us an 82 win team.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
They sure were right
about that one, huh?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Were people really that high on Gallagher?
His stuff never ‘wowed’ me. Murton/Patterson are what they are. Donaldson was mildly intriguing. I’m sure there were some people flipping out about Gallagher… but I think most people that actually watched him pitch knew he wasn’t really that special.
Yes. Thank you. My thoughts exactly.
Garza helps the Cubs fill out their rotation nicely. Archer was good but the bottom line is that he was good in the minor leagues. I’m gonna give this deal a chance. I like it so far.
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
I remember thinking...
Gallagher was a 4th starter, Murton needed a change since they never gave him the chance he deserved, Patterson was a utility guy and Donaldson had a little upside.
This is not the same…and we actually got another useful piece back from the A’s in that trade.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
Murton never got the chance he deserved?
This is an example of a prospect being overvalued by fans. Murton did not have major league starter talent.
by LT on Jan 7, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
He definately wasn't a star
but he had some pretty useful seasons when they let him play.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
3-2-1......
pic of Murton on the unicorn coming. Paging SWL…
by LT on Jan 7, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
Wasn't it just one season? 2006?
And he was pretty good that year.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Yes Murton did. He was a starter on Opening Day 2006.
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
But he was out of the picture by 2008.
He was weak defensively, had little power and hit from the wrong side of the plate.
Also, being the opening day starter on a team that lost 96 games is hardly an achievement.
My posting of this was my response was to the claim that Murton never got the chance
He got his chance in ’06, and was crap after that.
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
Murton was Dwight Smith
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Not really.
Smith was better defensively, and a much better hitter with more power, and he was a lefty. He was also the kind of guy who could start or be a valuable bench guy. Murton was the kind of guy who needed to play every day to be reasonably productive.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
I was referring more to time period of usefulness to Cubs
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I don't remember any posters worrying about the guys we traded for Harden.
You don’t really believe the argument you just made, do you? Because the “We got Harden” thread is still archived here, and there isn’t much handwringing over the guys we lost, if there’s any at all. It was more “WHOO HOO! We got Harden!!”
Not a single one of those guys were heralded at all.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Revisionist history.
Both Gallagher and Donaldson were.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Not to the same extent of Lee and Archer.
It’s a key distinction. Plus, the Cubs were in a pennant chase at that point in 2008, whereas they’re coming off a fifth-place finish. Adding a No. 2-3 starter was a bigger deal then than it is now.
I’m not saying the Garza deal is flat terrible. But it’s VERY different than the Harden trade.
And that’s NOT revisionist history.
By who?
Because I’m really, really not seeing that. Both were toward the bottom of the Cubs Top 10 prospects lists, if/when they appeared at all.
And neither had any seasons that were as elite as Archer’s 2010 was.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
But as I said
the Cubs were in a lot different position when the made the Harden trade than they are now.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
The other difference....
(which I point out here only for comparison’s sake, since I’m not in the camp of bashing the Garza trade) is that when we got Harden, we had a good chance of winning it all right now, and a lot of people thought Harden could be the starting pitcher that put the Cubs over the top. So the prospects we have up were not as important. Much the way people thought Nomar would be the difference maker in ‘04. The people who don’t like the Garza trade are the people who have already decided that playing the 2011 is a gigantic waste of time because we have no chance whatsoever to win.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
DOon't compare these prospects to those
We had already seen some of those guys in MLB and they were nothing special. Not even close.
What?
I know I wasn’t that active on BCB back then, but people really cared?
Sure, Eric Patterson has potential as a 2B, but who cared about the rest?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
And...
The Cubs’ system in 2008 was ranked very highly at all. So even if the top prospects were in the Harden deal (they weren’t), it isn’t as bad.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
No, they didn't care.
It’s all there in the archives, if anyone’s really interested. Suffice it to say there was much rejoicing.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Plus
It’s likely Greg Maddux evaluated both Archer and Garza. If he likes Garza better, it should not be discounted.
Ah, yes.
The Maddux Factor. I believe you’re the first to mention it.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
That's an interesting point.
Hey, it's a new century!
by cowsarecool220 on Jan 7, 2011 1:18 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously Al?
That’s about as funny as Doggie not liking this deal even if we had included Soriano and his contract. Except I think Doggie was trying to be sarcastic. Apparently you’re trying to be serious here.
Maybe you should head out to Mesa sooner rather than later – I think you need the break.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Fernando Perez
is one of the guys coming back. Fernando Perez is not very good. 27 and awful
Scroll up for more on Perez
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
I disagree.
I don’t think Perez is awful at all. Speedster with experience. I wouldn’t doubt he will be on the Cubs next year. He’s useful.
they guy slugged under .300 in AAA AT AGE 27!
what on earth is useful about that!?!?!?
How did Joey Gathright work out fo the Cubs?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
#for
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
HE ONE TIME JUMPED OVER A CAR! YOU TAKE THAT BACK!
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
his OBP was under .300 IN AAA AT AGE 27
What exactly is his “game”
Apparently Hendry was adamant that the cubs got a "speedy leadoff guy"
in an effort to appease certain members of BCB who believe that’s what we truly lack!
by English Cub Fan on Jan 7, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Unfortunately
we also gave up a speedy leadoff guy in the deal, who could get on base to actually use his speed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
He was injured all of 2009
My guess is that Hendry’s scouts think he can rebound now that he is a full year past wrist and shoulder problems. At best he could be a 5th outfielder for the Cubs, and a true CFer on defense. Not much to like, but he did have some success in the lower minors and is a very intelligent man. I would rank him as below all four of the Cub prospects in the deal, but not worthless.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
he was healthy all of last year
and was awful. Beyond terrible. Those are the kind of hitting #’s that get you converted to a RP
I don't know enough about injury recovery to say
He had shoulder surgery in Nov. 2009. He completely messed up his wrist (dislocated) in early 2009. Was Spring 2010 enough time to get his timing and strength back? Was he completely without pain? I honestly don’t know.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
Sure it is.
He’s a potential RH hitting backup outfielder with actual major league experience.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
honestly
this comparison is one of the……………worst you have made. Its just waayyy off base
Perez is the same as Guyer because he has to be.
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 7, 2011 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
That wasn't a comparison...
And it’s all facts. He could potentially be a RH hitting backup outfielder. And he does have ML experience.
I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm.
If it is, bravo.
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 7, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
I don't get it. Are they paying you?
At what point do you say “you know what? I am not sure that I like this.”
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Al has rendered TJ redundant.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
by shoemile on Jan 7, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And that was before I saw his assessment of Fernando Perez
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Perez – 2010 (AAA)
223/.280/.299 (426 PAs)
Guyer – 2010 (AA)
.344/.398/.588 (410 PAs)
He’s three years younger too. But you are correct in that they are both outfielders.
"All right, you ragtag bunch of misfits! You hate me, and I hate you even more. But without my beloved ringers, you're all I've got. So I want you to remember some inspiring words that someone else might have told you over the course of your lives, and go out there and win!"
by Lord Palmerston on Jan 7, 2011 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
"But you are correct in that they are both outfielders."
Made me LOL.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
No
at best he’s Sam Fuld. More likely, he’s a body in AAA.
Look, you’re right. This trade is not all bad. Guyer was easily replaceable and Chirinos was never going to start for us. Lee was a problem too with Castro. It all comes down to why did we need Garza and the first place and why did we give up Archer.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Some of us actually wanted the Cubs to give Guyer a chance to make the club
344/.398/.588 (410 PAs) looks pretty nice to me.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jan 7, 2011 3:24 PM CST up reply actions
I just don't see what all the fuss is about
The Cubs just acquired a proven pitcher with World Series experience that is coming off his best season while pitching in the toughest division in the majors and we gave up a pitcher that was good in A/AA and a shortstop that is competing with Starlin Castro anyways.
If in June Garza is 3-8 with a 4.60 and Archer is at the big league level lighting it up, then that’s one thing. But until then, I’m going to wait until this thing plays out before I bash Jim Hendry like most everyone else does on this site.
I like the move. Solid rotation now for the Cubs.
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
by mikegncb34 on Jan 7, 2011 11:35 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Not impressed.
Here’s my article explaining why. I focus only on Garza’s value, which doesn’t excite me. Add in gutting our top-10 prospects, and I REALLY am not excited.
I think you're right
It’s not the prospects that bother me so much (well, Archer bothers me) but I think Garza is nothing special.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
At least one person approves of this deal
Koyie Hill
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
Have added a front-page poll on this trade.
Go vote.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
There could be 'a slient majority'
Hot Time In Old Town SB Nation's blog for Chicago Fire, Soccer, & Chicago History
by Tweed Thornton on Jan 7, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
ugh - obviously a typo
Hot Time In Old Town SB Nation's blog for Chicago Fire, Soccer, & Chicago History
by Tweed Thornton on Jan 7, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
You can break out your old goatees from 2003
You still have those Matt Clement goatees from a while back? With this trade you can put them on again.
It will be a fun spring, summer and fall in Chicago this year.
Funny, I was thinking about this almost immediately when I heard the news.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Good times can always be had on this here website.
Thank you for providing good fun this morning. Happy new year!
"I'm not a broadcaster! I'm me!"--Ron Santo
Happy New Year to you,
Chilango. And yes, I know exactly what you mean.
by Damen Jackson on Jan 7, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
My best wishes to you both and your families!
Hope to talk to you soon under more sane circumstances.
"I'm not a broadcaster! I'm me!"--Ron Santo
Definitely
Maybe we can do a meetup Opening Day, or something.
by Damen Jackson on Jan 7, 2011 11:48 AM CST up reply actions
My feelings exactly!
I’m glad I can enjoy the cacophony that is BCB rather than get enraged by it.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
It has been a fun read for sure.
Happy New Year to you too!
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
Forgive me if this has been mentioned - the posts are coming fast and furious...
From ESPN…
The deal, which has been agreed to pending physicals, sends right-handed pitcher
Chris Archer, outfielder Brandon Guyer, catcher Robinson Chirinos, shortstop Hak-Ju Lee and outfielder Sam Fuld to Tampa for Garza, a minor league pitcher and minor league outfielder Fernando Perez.
What do we know about Fernando Perez?
Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!
With luck, he can have a long and fruitful career in Des Moines as organizational filler. Like Trinidad Hubbard.
27 and not good.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Hardly.
I’ll give it MAYBE 2 for 1, with the 2 being Archer and Lee.
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
I would have to say that Chirinos, and Guyer will probably make there
roster going north. With Lee and Archer most likely making it within two years. Garza will be the only piece to figure in the Cubs plan.
Well with Tampa I think Fuld beats out Guyer
but ironic it will be sort of the same situation it would have been with the Cubs.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 7, 2011 11:57 AM CST up reply actions
To be fair
We’re not giving up anyone as good as Julio Franco
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
But are we getting back someone as good as the immortal Von Hayes?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
What we also know about Fernando Perez:
He’s the first pro baseball player to be published in Poetry magazine. He’s funny too.
A DRaysBay writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
Ohhhh, that guy.
I remember seeing that clip a while back. Definitely worth watching.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Yeah, what the Cubs are losing in baseball talent
is far compensated in literary talents.
A DRaysBay writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
Maybe he and Dempster could do a show together or something.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
I've had a subscription to Poetry
for awhile. That’s excellent. The writing major in me is smiling. The Cub fan in me, however, is shrugging his shoulders. Meh.
"We are not equations with hats." -Dean Young
Wonder if McNutt gets Archer's place at the convention.
Save your programs kids. Last time Archer’s name will be on anything official from the Cubs
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
Seriously.
I’m trying hard to withhold judgement until it’s all on the table.
"We are not equations with hats." -Dean Young
I wonder how many of the guys bitching about losing Archer
are the same ones who were bitching when the Cubs traded DeRosa TO GET Archer?
Miserable, miserable people, they are.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 11:52 AM CST reply actions
I don't think it's a fair comparison at all.
But those of us that don’t like this deal aren’t all miserable. Thanks for trying, though.
I'm bitching now...
I was not back then. The worst part of this trade is the false hope Hendry (and others) still have that this team can contend without getting extremely lucky.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Why would you assume they are the same people?
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
So you if you complained ...
about trading one of the 2008 team’s most valuable players for minor leaguers (to make way for the Bradley Revolution) you can’t complain TWO YEARS later when one of those minor leaguers is traded?
They’re separate moves made at separate points in the club’s history, Bruce.
Honestly Bruce,
I think people who were upset then were either upset about the trade in general, or the fact that it was designed to pave the way to bring in “He Who Shall Not be Named”.
by Damen Jackson on Jan 7, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
I am not a big fan of the trade,
considering Hendrys dealings the last two years ( Dome, Bradley, Grabow) I love to have a crystal ball and see two years from now, but that will have to wait.
But to call people “miserable people they are” just because they do not like the trade, is a little tough you think?
That's not what I called them
There are plenty of people here who like to bitch for bitching’s sake. That’s directed at them.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
and you like to bitch at the bitchers for bitching's sake.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Jan 7, 2011 8:51 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm bitching now, was not bitching then
This was a terrible trade. The Cubs are still a 4th place team.
right,
we’re the ones who should be gambling on high upside prospects…not trading them for 3 extra wins.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
Well, if this doesn't pan out ...
it’s clear that allowing Hendry to stay based on the
Someone list the Cubs prospects in the last 20 years who have been elite big-leaguers
This is big-money baseball folks. If this pans out, its great for the Cubs. If it doesn’t , there’s another deal down the pipeline that will get everyone riled up again. Let it play out. We’ve been soooo much closer to the promised land the last few years… perspective is a good thing.
I will give you that about the prospects
However it appears the last few years this farm system has done well, Marmol, Soto, Castro, Colvin and to a lesser extent Cashner.
Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Geo Soto, Carlos Marmol...
All had at least one season among the tops at their position.
And they’ve gotten Garza-esque performance out of Randy Wells. Starlin Castro looks pretty good. Going back 20 years takes us into the fallow Hendry-draft years, though, where very little was developed.
Give me 25 years and I can say Raffy Palmiero, Greg Maddux, and Mark Grace.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Don't forget Dontrelle Willis was quite good for a couple years.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
Marmol was a top prospect?
That’s not how I remember it …
He had already washed out as a catcher by age 19.
He had the walks down and was striking out everyone he saw by 2006. He had a 2.33 ERA, a 1.155 WHIP, and 10.4 K/IP at AA at age 23. I have no idea how highly he was ranked, but in retrospect, the signs were certainly there.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
*Newsflash*
Archer is not in the same prospect discussion as a Casey Kelley or a Drabek or a Strasburg. He’s being way way overvalued around here.
And Garza is not a AGon or a Halladay
it’s all relative.
No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.
Is a FIP in the low to mid 4's really #2 caliber?
I guess it depends on your definition of a #2 pitcher.
I'd say No. 2 is Garza's ceiling.
He should be a good No. 3-level starter and could drop lower if he gives up a lot of home runs.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
How do you keep saying that?
I see an established ERA just under 4.00 and pretty mediocre peripherals. He could be nice for the Cubs, but they were better off holding onto the lotto ticket for a top-rotation starter.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Every great player in MLB was, at one time, a prospect.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Which makes Garza what, a scratch-off ticket?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Yes Garza is scratch off ticket
They have much better odds of a modest success but lotto tickets give MUCH higher reward.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jan 8, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
I think he is
Not Strasburg of course, but the other two should never be lumped in with him.
We’ll see where Archer ranks on this years Top 100 lists…I wouldn’t be surprised to see him in the 20-30 range on a list or two.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
This is true
He’s not on that level. But Garza isn’t Adrian Gonzalez or Roy Halladay either.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
Isn't it funny how every baseball guy is saying how it's a solid deal for the Cubs ?
I keep hearing the Cubs gave up depth but not star players.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
Jim Callis of BA agrees with everyone I have spoken to. "Cubs made a solid deal. Gave up depth and good players. No stars.
Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus says Cubs gave up solid players but no superstars.Rays got depth guys according to him.
@Buster_ESPN general perception of Cubs-Garza deal from rival evaluators:Cubs give up a lot of volume,but no real cant-miss star prospect
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
Wasn't that how the Cubs farm system was evaluated in general?
Good depth, no stars?
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
So what's the problem with trading depth then?
Isn’t that part of why you have depth?
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
Did they trade too much of it though?
Personally, I don’t know. But I just looked at that top 10 prospects thread, and three of them are now gone, one of them hasn’t even thrown a pitch at the minor league level, and another may be leaning towards playing football. Does that mean that none of these guys were expendable? No. But for Matt Garza? Eh.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Exactly
If all the Cubs have is depth, then of course they aren’t giving up any stars. But, that doesn’t mean they didn’t give up too much depth. Depth isn’t a synonym for bad.
It isn't
A synonym for useful either
by cubsluver22 on Jan 7, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Um, actually that's pretty much the synonym I'd use.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Um, actually that's pretty much the synonym I'd use.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Callis originally said he thought it was rich
Also, they don’t say that the Cubs made a good deal. They just say the Cubs gave up no can’t-miss stars.
Besides, these guys completely ignore where the Cubs are at as far as the cycle of contention. They aren’t going to win the division next year. They should be rebuilding, instead of trading prospects.
callis said they made a solid deal but ok.
They commented on the deal alone not being in contention.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
Well, you can't evaluate a deal in a vacuum
In the Cubs strategic plan this makes no sense. Perhaps you can argue about whether they got fair value for Garza, but they should not have made this deal if that is what it took to acquire him.
I will take this deal every day of the week
Trade 3 Less stellar prospects for a young cost controlled proven #2 Major League starter and I will win the deal 95% of the time!
You can keep calling him a proven #2 Major League starter.
But that doesn’t necessarily make it true.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Why doesn't it?
15 Game winner with a 3.91 era in the AL East isn’t #2 material? How many 15 game winner’s did we have last year?
I am now convinced
of this guys troll status
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
And that's what you're doing...
when you bring up wins. They mean nothing. That’s a statistical reality.
Garza has a poor home run rate. That’s only going to get worse going from Tropicana Field to Wrigley Field. His home/road splits scare the hell out of me.
These problems could cancel out the gain he’ll get from moving from AL East to NL Central and maturity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
How many wins did Felix Hernandez have last year again?
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
Correction
Pitcher wins are meaningless. Felix Hernandez won 13 games last year. Tyler Clippard won 11 games last year. The W stat for pitchers does not describe in any meaningful way what the pitcher did on the field. It describes some combination of the pitcher’s performance and the team’s performance, but there is no way to directly untangle the two just by looking at the stat. Further, any slob who gets three outs at the right time, or any middling SP on a team with a good offense can pile up wins. Wins do not tell you anything meaningful about a pitcher other than that his team had the lead when he exited the game.
Why do you care about wins for a pitcher?
Pitcher A could give up 7 runs and get the win while Pitcher B could give up 1 run and get a loss.
Umm... what?
What does the division have anything to do with that? My point is that judging a pitcher by his win/loss record is an archaic and pointless way to form an opinion. Doesn’t matter if it’s in the AL East or the California Penal League.
Also.....
Pitcher A could leave in the 8th inning—with a reliever coming in and the bases empty—and the side is retired, earning him a win.
While Pitcher B leaves the game in the same situation and the reliever gives up enough runs to garner a “no-decision” for Pitcher B.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jan 7, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
And the Brewers only gave up one prospect
for an AL East cost controlled pitcher who won 13 and had a better WHIP.
I don’t think is the worst trade ever but Hendry overpaid. He paid the TB price.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Who else
is clinging to the hope that Garza fails his physical.
I would feel pretty bad for the guy...
He’s only made 5 million dollars in his career of playing a game.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
YEAH HE MAKES A LOT OF MONEY! LET'S WISH HE GETS INJURED BECAUSE HE HAS MONEY! YEAH WE'RE COOL!
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
your last comment sounded like it.
"That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June."
- Big boy Frankie
by lexmarklover on Jan 7, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
I was just saying I hope the trade doesn't go through
I obviously don’t want to physically hurt anyone.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
Callis, Goldstein and Olney's tweets are giving me hope.
As is the fact that we still don’t know the identity of the final minor leaguer.
I'm not convinced...
they just don’t want a bunch of Cubs fans throwing their kool-aid slushies at them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, I'm not convinced either.
I would REALLY like to know the name of the final minor leaguer.
I'm not there
I hate the trade but since we made it, we made it. Let’s hope I’m wrong.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 7, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
In need a glossary
What is the definition of an Ace, of a #2 starter? What are the qualifications?
Just read the first line, then comment.
A good question.
Everyone seems to have their own personal definitions, so it’s hard to say.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
I like this idea
Rank pitchers from one league by WAR. Your top 16 (or 14) are #1s, the next 16 are your #2s and so on.
A rotation like the Phillies may have multiple #1s – A staff like the Cubs, may have none….
That's a good idea.
I’ve always wished someone would write an article or blogpost making a solid case for such classifications.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
I heard this once on sports talk show once (rare moment of insight)
I would love to see a list like this put together…..by someone else :)
Here's a question to trade supporters
Even if you think we didn’t give up much why risk that you did? The Cubs with Garza are still the 4th place team in the central. What did we gain here?
I will say this....
I will take my chances any day of the week trading unknown and raw prospects of this caliber for…for sure #2 Starting pitchers.
He's never been a sure #2 starter ever before
At best we can hope he makes the jump to become a #2. At worst his flyball tendencies bite us and he’s back to being an average #3.
Ok
You can think that. When Hak Ju-Lee and Chris Archer are playing for the MLB minimum, and the Cubs are paying Matt Garza $10 million to be an above-average pitcher, you can tell us that there was no opportunity cost involved in having Garza on the roster for $10 million as compared to Lee and Archer for peanuts.
Unless Ricketts is going to raise the payroll to $180 million then paying for Garza instead of Archer and Lee effects our future.
You hold a good major league pitcher, who is still getting better for 3 more years.
And gave up 2 above average prospects who are not proven at all, and one who is at least 2, probably 3 years away and has a lot of question marks.
Garza will be a Cub for more than one year.
He’ll be under team control — so while he won’t be exceptionally cheap, he won’t require guaranteed or multiple years.
I don’t love this deal. But Garza isn’t a 1-year rental, which makes it better.
Cubs only finished 4th in 2011?
Damn. Oh well.
Oh hey! Can you tell me: is the weather just crazybad in the future, like they’re saying it’s gonna be?
"We are not equations with hats." -Dean Young
Just read this on draysbay
didn’t see it here
Acc. to Bruce Levine, the deal is agreed to with only details such as physicals and contract details to be finished. We are also giving up Fuld and receiving a highly rated minor league pitcher and outfielder in return
I copied it from a post on Draysbay
so I’m taking their word for it.
by SenorYuletide on Jan 7, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
Uh, well the outfielder certainly isn't highly rated.
Let’s hope the pitcher is.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Couldn;t we have dealt these guys for Adrian Gonzales?
Ugh.
I hate this deal… and I hate it because we’re dealing with the Rays: the best scouting and player development franchise in all of baseball. They wanted Archer and Lee…. those two were deal breakers. If they wanted them that bad, then they must know those two are gonna pan out very well.
G Damn it Cubs.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Hendry paid their price
when the market for Garza was the Cubs and Nationals. The Rays had few options.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I wonder if that deal was still on the table after the Beltre signing
could the Rangers afford another $6-$7 million or whatever Garza will cost in 2011.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
In the words of the great Elwood Blues,
“Well try not to be so negative all the time, why don’t you offer some constructive criticism.” Seriously, people we are bitching about Hendry making a good move that puts us in to a form of contention? If we ever expect to win a world series we have to ditch this negative mentality. You’d be amazed at what positivity can do from time to time.
If it was easy it wouldn't be the Cubs.
by Cubbinstrongsince86 on Jan 7, 2011 12:35 PM CST reply actions
Stop.
Fan mentality does not affect how teams perform.
Game 1 of the 2008 NLDS
wants a word with you, eg.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
That's RIDICULOUS.
For one thing, Piniella noted after that game that the fans didn’t seem into the game. The early start time brought a “corporate crowd.”
There is pressure associated with the Cubs, and that pressure sometimes affects the team’s play. But the pressure isn’t caused by fan negativity.
All I know is
whatever energy was in that ballpark that night went right out the window after Loney’s slam.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
And all I know is ...
a team shouldn’t need fan energy to win.
Baloney.
The Red Sox fans pre-2004 were pretty much the same and had more negative fans than we do now.
They turned it around. The Cubs should be able to as well. And THEN our negativity will go away.
This was a happier site in summer 2008, Al.
Multiply that by 10 or even 100. That’s what it would be like if the Cubs won a title.
The same? Not quite
The Red Sox had plenty of great teams and were ultra-competitive, even though they weren’t winning the whole thing.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jan 7, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
And they choked year after year.
If anything, they had more dread when things got bad — like after Loney’s grand slam.
Red Sox fans went from "negative" to "insufferable" in a heartbeat.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jan 8, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly
what form of contention are they in? If going all out to be .500 is your brand of vodka, then cheers!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 7, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
This moves does little to position them
for contention in the next couple of seasons. This will help ensure respectability, and sell tickets. That’s pretty much it.
by Damen Jackson on Jan 7, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
Boo!
The Cubs weren’t going to contend this year and essentially traded away their future for the short term. Thanks Hendry.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
Let's see.
They still have Jackson, McNutt and others. Guyer and Chirinos aren’t “future”.
Essentially, it boils down to Archer and Lee for Garza.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
Archer and Lee
Just too much imho.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
lol
our main prospects and rookies are still here. but yeah, let’s keep crying about this.
"It's important in life to not give a shit. It can help you a lot." - George Carlin
Overflow thread and further explanation from me as to why this deal is OK with me.
"You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra
I'll be overjoyed if Garza blows the NL Central away this year...
but for now, count me in the ranks of the disappointed. What I can’t get out of my mind is that we in no way NEEDED to do this deal. There was simply no good reason for us to trade promising young prospects for a mid-level starter. Even if Garza turns into a fantastic starter, he alone won’t get us to the world series in the next 3 years. This just pushes the prospect train back a few years, and will make us more dependent on FA to fill in the gaps to contend.
And we still don’t have a sure-fire top of the rotation impact starter in the rotation, nor an impact corner power bat in the whole system. If we were going to deal from a position of depth (SS and SP), we should have gotten something we needed as a system, a corner bats or a high end starter (depending on who the unnamed pitcher is).
I’ll be the first to admit I was in love with HJ Lee, so I may be a little blinded by his loss. I was also a big Guyer backer, but I’m probably the least worried about losing him (Fuld notwithstanding). I can see dealing Archer with Cashner and McNutt also around, but I have the sinking feeling that Archer has as much or more upside as Garza, and would have been around for more years in which we would have a better chance to compete.
Finally, to top it off, I give you Jonah Keri at Bloomberg Sport’s analysis of Matt Garza with the Cubs
Matt Garza’s Potential Impact with the Cubs
Geez. I go to work. Do my job. Stay off the internet and out of BCB for a few hours and all hell breaks loose...
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
Garza will be the ace of the Cubs pitching staff
The difference between an AL pitcher who faces a DH, and a NL pitcher who faces other pitchers is roughly 0.50 ERA. Garza’s career ERA of 3.97 is all in the AL. In the NL, I expect it to be around 3.50. This puts it on par with Z. Add in the NL hitters have never seen him, and it could be even better.
by californiachicagoan on Jan 7, 2011 2:09 PM CST reply actions
Jim Hendry continues to make great moves
A big bat, a frontline starter, and a top bullpen arm. Love the team he has put together.
by californiachicagoan on Jan 7, 2011 2:11 PM CST reply actions
Jim's ex wife?
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
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