How would you make changes for 2012?
Now it seems that we finally have a (good) GM, what actions would you like to see for the upcoming season? Obviously, this team has major problems in areas - so how would you address those weaknesses?
Here are a couple of ways I would address the 2012 Cubs and make changes to the current roster (or disaster for some).
First, I think we can all agree on this one:
1) Fire Mike Quade, replace Quade with Sandberg - Look, I'm sure Mike Quade is a good guy. He seems like the type of guy that walks the elderly across the street, pays his taxes on time, and always drives the speed limit on the highway. But I think we all saw enough from him that he certainly wasn't the major problem - but he certainly wasn't the answer. His in game decisions are bad, and his non authoritative attitude isn't something this team needs with next to no leadership on the team.
2) Explore third base options if Ramirez does not come back - I like Aramis. I really do. I have said before, he's certainly the best and most talented third baseman we've had since Santo. But look, his defense is not good. His leadership isn't what this team has needed. While he swings the bat like a damn good player, it's the fundamental problems that I take issue with. That's been a Cub problem for my entire lifetime. Fundamentals are NOT this organizations strong suit.
Explore the options that maybe available in the trade market. If nothing is available, and if Ramirez is not signed yet - maybe consider taking him back. Offer arb (which he will most likely reject), and get some picks for him if he signs elsewhere.
3) Improve the teams starting pitching - You have nowhere to go but up. This teams starting pitching besides Garza was pretty bad.
4) Trade Alfonso Soriano & Carlos Zambrano somewhere - I don't really care how much of these contracts you have to eat. Even if we have to replace both with rookies to make it work. This team needs to get more value from salaries, and one player has a decent attitude but horrible play (Soriano) - and the other has good talent and play at times but an horrible attitude (Zambrano).
5) Sign Prince Fielder if Pujols' won't be an viable option - Pujols is going to cost you alot. Let the Cards offer him an deal more than 6 years. At least kick the tires on him. If not, set your sights on a player like Fielder who is younger and is a great hitter in his own right.
These options are in no obvious order, I'm just hoping Epstein can lead the Cubs in the right direction (which I'm sure he can and will). What are your wishes for this Cubs' offseason?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Ramirez or Madlock?
Tough call.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
Given that Ramirez has years as good as Madlock's
I’d give it to Ramirez since he was here so much longer – 9 years vs 3 years.
Their peak years were pretty similar in value – 4.5 and 5.3 WAR for Madlock, 5.1 and 4.7 for Ramirez.
I'm with ya...
But I’m not sure that makes us good enough to basically be maxing payroll right back out and being saddled with long term commitments.
For conversation sake let’s say we Hire Ryno. We go out and get Pujols or Fielder. We get CJ Wilson, Roy Oswalt, or Edwin Jackson. We Resign Aram or get Cuddyer, Encarnacion or Casey Blake. The we get Kelly Johnson or Aaron Hill. All that right there takes up more than what we have to spend. We still need at least 1 more OF, a Reliever or 2, some depth and we have arbitration to deal with.
I have thought and thought and thought about this subject. I have weighed all sides. The wanna win now side of me wants to spend every dime we have and do whatever it takes right freaking now but that is no guarantee and it leaves us with no room for additions as needed. I will be Happy if we get a Superstar or Two this offseason.
With that being said we gotta be really careful with the win now pressure and let this thing play out slowly while more bad contracts continue to go away and Minor Leaguers continue to develop into useful major leaguers or flame out.
The economy will still be bad
for many MLB teams for awhile. Make some solid 3 year signings, and sign a 1B. Let Theo work his skill of bringing in quality players
If Ryno comes onboard, that should get us near 3 mil and buy us a year. Improve the finances. Lose more bad contracts. Swoop when needed.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
And even if he isn't
… he’s 38. Why would you want him?
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Here's what I would do...
1) Fire Mike Quade and offer him a job elsewhere in the organization, possibly as a scout. Then I would fire the entire coaching staff including Rudy Jaramillo.
2) I would hire Ryne Sandberg as manager and suggest hiring Jim Riggleman as bench coach. I would like to see Sandberg have a veteran manager with some experience as his bench coach. For coaching staff, I would let Ryno pick the guys. My suggestions would be Doug Dascenzo for 1B coach, Larry Bowa for 3B coach, Ron Jackson for hitting coach, Rick Sutcliffe for pitching coach and Jim Riggleman for bench coach.
3) I would trade Zambrano to the Marlins along with cash and Soriano to an American League team looking for a DH.
4) I would trade Marmol and look at a guy like Cashner, Marshall or Carpenter as a possible closer next year.
5) Sign Pujols or Fielder to play first base and a couple of free agent pitchers to shore up the pitching staff.
6) Sign free agent 3B Kevin Kouzmanoff to replace Aramis Ramirez.
Well.....
…- I doubt Quade would stick around to scout. Most guys let go as manager don’t stay with the team.
- What happens if Epstein decides to keep Quade for another year as a placeholder for Francona? You never know.
- Sutcliffe does not want to work full time. He’ll do “guest instructor” bits during Spring Training, but that’s it.
- Zambrano is likely headed to Miami. Hendry DID try to unload Soriano at the deadline, but found no takers at any price.
-I’m all for unloading Marmol. He’s not going to tame his wildness.
- What happens if Epstein actually wants to keep Pena. Is Theo still a genius?
- No way on Kouzmanoff. He’s unemployed right now for a reason.
-
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Buried in an article and again today....
Q’s coaching staff contracts expire at the end of the month. Earlier it was reported that they had all been invited to take other job opportunities if they exist.
To me that sounds like we’re cleaning house. Sorry, no links, I’ve read so many Theo to Cubs articles the past week. The contract reference was in Gordo’s Sun Times article about Ryno returning today.
As far as Unique’s off season plans, here is one you all may over look. When Dallas Green took over the Cubs he fleeced the Phillies for a minor league player with some ability. We came to know him as Ryno. Maybe Theo has a minor league player the Red Sox are will to let go of, or another player he had his eye on. Cheap return for our investment maybe. I hold out hope for a diamond in the rough find.
Also Unique, let’s move pitching up to #1. If we are going to compete, it all has to start with pitching.
We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 for Hall of Fame.
I could see Dernier keeping his job if Sandberg is the next manager.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 12, 2011 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I could see this as well. My question is, was Booby the baserunning coach?
Outside of Campana, the Cubs dont really run the bases well. But that could be just lack of speed or they just look bad when doing what the 3b coach says.
I'm going to assume that was a typo in the subject line...
Anyway, I think Ivan DeJesus made several head scratching calls at 3B as you alluded to. Also, there is only so much that a coach can do. If a player isn’t a good runner, things can be taught, but it takes time.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 13, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I may not agree with all your points, but....
I like the approach for sure. On Jaramillo—there’s some pretty good hitters on a team in Arlington, that’s just a tad from being in the WS, who credit him with being a big help. I almost think the poor club house attitude contributed to players in Chicago not listening to Rudy. Theo will figure it out though.
I’m good with Sandberg and I love the idea of bringing back Riggs to help with in game tactics. I’d prefer Greg Maddux as a pitching coach if he’d be willing. and I love me some Larry Ballgame as the 3B coach—plus the man oozes ball. Great to have around—fiery—generally upbeat.
Cave in to the realization that dumping Z anf Fonz will involve losing millions but it’s part of t he price for the cure.
Agree on Marmol. Not at all sure I agree on Pujols or Fielder though. Players similar to Kouzmanoff are what we need more of. Without having checked on him my premise is that fundamentally sound players are what we need. Theriot was one of those types and getting rid of him was a big blunder. I hate the Cards as much as the next guy but that’s one of the things they seem to ALWAYS do wel.. Acquire consistent all around players who typically don’t cause their team to get beat with stupidity. We need a Yadier Molina clone behind the plate—desperately. Geo will never be a field general.
"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know. " Abraham Lincoln
We need more players similar to Kouzmanoff?
That’s worse than when someone said we need to bring in more Marlon Byrd types a couple weeks ago. The guy had 7 HR and an OBP in the .280s. That’s something we definitely don’t need more of.
And getting rid of Theriot was “a big blunder”? On what planet is this? Screw Ryan Theriot, the guy sucks and is getting benched to make room in the lineup for Nick freakin Punto. Not to mention he always seemed to kill the Cubs with his stupid play, especially on the basepaths. He’s as far from a “consistent all around player” as it gets. There is so much wrong with your last paragraph my jaw literally dropped.
I completely disagree on the last paragraph
Kouzmanoff has done the following over the past 4 years in OPS: .732, .722, .679, .656. That’s going from mediocre to very bad. If it was 2007 and we were talking about the 24 year old who had a .786 OPS as a rookie, then I’d be interested. But this guy has just progressively gotten worse and worse.
And getting rid of Theriot was not in any way a blunder. He was overpaid, pretty bad, and absolutely a contributor to the losing in 2010. So we replaced him with a better, cheaper version in Barney. St. Louis made the mistake of signing Theriot, which they realized midseason and thus acquired Furcal to replace him. Now, he’s a platoon player with Nick Punto and probably not going to be back with the Cardinals next year.
Agreed with the two above posters.
Kouzmanoff is awful.
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Huh?
Players similar to Kouzmanoff are what we need more of.
I thought the goal was to make the team better. Apparently cubfever7 has a different goal.
Without having checked on him
If you have not checked on him (and seen just how bad he is) why would you say the Cubs need him? He stinks. The A’s, a team desperate for hitters, gave up on him.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 15, 2011 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't have a leg to stand on with Kouzmanoff...
as I said, I made no effort to look him up before hand and any crap that rains down on my post as a result is my own fault. and by the way, some of you are not too bad at raining down crap.
I would submit that with all his warts (and now that i’ve looked at his #‘s) he’s a better defender and baserunner than Aram. but is obviously nowhere near the hitter.
Should Theriot have said what he said? No
Does he wish he never said it? I’d guess that he surely does.
Was he wrong? No he was not. They have been a better run organization for decades.
Theriot maybe was and maybe wasn’t a blunder—but he’s headed in the direction of Grace and Fontenot as players who were good enough to have a roster spot elsewhere on a winning club.
I hate the Cards, but here we are again with them 1 game away from the dance. it seems to happen that way for them alot. I think it was May or June that I posted here that I’d trade the Royals or Pirates 40 man roster straight up for ours. I still would. Wouldn’t you? How can this be with 2 “small markets” known for having made their fair share of blunders too?
The worst thing Theo can do in my view is to delude himself into thinking that a few pieces here and there added to what’s on hand will turn this team around. That’s what Hendry always thought (and acted upon), as did I and quite a few of you.
I’m at the point where i’ll take a .250 hitter like Kouzmanoff who K’s a ton but thinks and hustles all the time over a great run producer who looks to be all about himself for 120 games a year. Ramirez looks arrogant when he’s trying not to—sort of reminds me of the old Bob Dole line “even when he smiles, he looks like he just evicted a widow.”
I think Sandberg can reach Castro—somebody needs to immediately. I keep Starlin—Barney—Byrd and Pena. Pitching wise—Garza, Dempster—Marshall-Wood and a couple of the kids—if the rest are traded, I’m ok with it. Focus on pitching, base running and defense first. Good luck Theo. And I wish peace upon all my fellow Cub fans.
"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know. " Abraham Lincoln
That you would prefer Kouz over ARam speaks volumes
and none of it good
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 15, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
a team built around guys like kouzmanoff would win 60 games a year
THEOOOOOOOOO
by jesus christos on Oct 15, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Trying to only go with realistic possibilities...
1.) Address starting pitching. I’m not all about spending a ton of money on CJ Wilson, I don’t see Cashner pitching starter type innings and we don’t have anyone in the system who can step into the rotation (Even though I think Dillon Maples will eventually turn into an ace). This year’s free agent crop doesn’t have anybody that is a must have, and I’d save some money for next year to take a stab at guys like Matt Cain or Cole Hamels,
So I’d take a Bruce Levine approach and try and make some deals for good young pitchers who had down years. I’d probably make some calls and ask about John Danks on the Southside, or call to Houston and ask about J.A. Happ (who was very good before he made the move to Houston). Also, a little less talked about, I’d have Epstein call down to Tampa and ask about James Shields.
2.) Remove Mike Quade as manager. If he is willing to be reassigned to another position in the minors, then by all means, he can stay and work with some of the young guys in some aspect, but his in-game skills are lacking. Quite honestly, I’m also sick of hearing his nicknames for everyone in the post game press conference. Also, I’m not opposed to keeping a guy like Bob Dernier as a first base coach, I think he works well with guys like Campana, Castro and can teach how to actually run the bases effectively. Rudy Jaramillo is alright, but if you are going to keep him, then his “hitting process” needs to be taught throughout the entire organization, not just at the major league level because at that point, it’s too late.
3.) Hire a manager. I’m not necessarily going to say Sandberg because if you hire Sandberg, at some point you will probably have to fire him and I don’t know how that would go over. I’m not opposed to him though. Somebody who truly does want to play the best players and hold people accountable.
4.) Z has to go to Florida. Send him there and get what you can for him. If the Marlins insist on the Cubs needing to eat a lot of the contract, then the Cubs should insist on getting either real prospects or Logan Morrison in return.
5.) Soriano…isn’t going anywhere. We can wish to trade him all day, but we have a better chance at seeing a real unicorn in it’s natural habitat, then we do of seeing Soriano in any jersey besides a Cubs jersey next year. Unless he is willing to accept a buy-out of sorts (if that’s even possible), he’s not leaving.
6.) Try and re-sign Aramis at 3rd. He’s said a few times now that he wants a 2 or 3 year deal and although he’s said that he wants to play for a contender, he’s also said that the Cubs would always be an option. Call his bluff and make him tell you no again. After him, I honestly make an effort to sign Wilson Betemit to a 1 or 2 year deal. I think the Cubs may have a future option at 3rd in either moving Castro to 3rd, DJ LeMahieu or Josh Vitters (if he continues to put the bat on the ball). Betemit is an average hitter with pretty good defense who is a viable stop-gap because the next few years are very down for 3rd basemen.
7.) Sign Prince Fielder. He’d be the only real money you spend this off season. Forget going after Pujols, he’s going to 40 by the end of his contract and eventually, his skill set will start falling. Fielder is hitting his prime and can be your first baseman for the next 7 or 8 years. Sign him as soon as possible or have fun trying to fill 1st base anytime soon.
Zambrano for Morrison (or a real prospect) is not a realistic possibility
To trade him, we are going to have to eat a lot of his 2012 salary and get little in return.
He's not THAT far into the doghouse
The Marlins aren’t dumb enough to trade a young, talented, cost-controlled player for one year of Zambrano. They may not be thrilled with him at the moment, but they know he has more value than that.
They did fire the National League manager of the year for back-talking the owner
The rationality of the franchise may be over-rated.
The obvious:
1. Quade should be replaced. Interesting to see who Theo hires. If the rumor or report about Theo trying to hire Sandberg for the Pawtucket job then Ryno has a good shot for the job.
2. Z being traded. The answer is what the Cubs get for him. Whatever they get in return would be a plus.
Now the tough part. What to do with the rotation. Counting on Cashner and Shark as part of the rotation is not what you would call “the rotation is set”. CJ Wilson will command and get a deal he is not worth. I don’t see the Cubs getting in a war over him. The rest of the free agents are weak. I guess you could look at Kuroda, Jeff Francis, Edwin Jackson, Malhom as options. I can’t see spending a lot of money and years on those types.
Theo is going to have to get creative. If Ramy walks, do the Cubs get in on Prince? Next 3 months will be interesting.
Dallas Green
Take a look at what Dallas Green inherited when he took over the reins in 1981. Very little to trade with and little in the farm system. Within three years he assembled a strong contending team, and a solid upcoming group of prospects in the minors. I believe Epstein can do even better than Dallas, and I admired Mr. Green alot.
"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields
It's a pretty generic list
But here are my thoughts on the list:
1. Quade will be gone. I don’t know that it has to be Sandberg to replace him though. Sandberg is no more experienced as an MLB manager than Quade was. Hopefully (if we do get Sandberg) he’ll be better than Quade.
2. If Ramirez will take a 2-3 year deal, I’d want him back. We aren’t going to find a similar talent on the free agent market, and the good 3B will cost a lot in trades.
3. Starting pitching definitely needs an upgrade, and that upgrade isn’t likely to come from the farm (at least not any time soon). The problem is that the SP free agent market this year is not deep. I’d explore trade possibilities and/or look for 1 year “buy low” candidates and hope for better options in the 2012 offseason. I don’t want a 3-4 year commitment (with the requisite overpricing) to just a decent starter.
4. I’d word your #4 differently. I don’t think you can say “trade at all cost” and then say “this team needs to get more value from salaries.” If you trade those guys and eat their cost, you’re going to be paying as much (or more) salary for likely a similar result (or worse) from their replacement (because you’ll be paying 4 players for the job of 2).
I think Zambrano will be moved and we’ll eat a ton of salary and get nothing in return. It’s too bad, because he’d be a near perfect (though overpriced) stopgap starter for the remaining year on his contract. He’s got the ability to eat innings and the off-chance of being an above-average starter (something we’ll be short on next year). And then we could offer him arbitration and get a draft pick or two for him next offseason. Unfortunately, the emotional issues mean he’s going to be gone.
Soriano is much more complicated. I’d say his production (at least the production he gave us last year) would be much easier to replace than Zambrano. Unfortunately, he’ll be much harder to unload due to the duration of his contract. Unless he has a
5. Getting Pujols is probably unrealistic. I think the Cardinals want to keep him, and I think he wants to stay there. I think they’ll figure it out. Fielder is a greater possibility. But there’ll be competing offers and there’s no guarantee he’ll want to come here. If we can get him, I’d say he’s the guy to get this offseason.
Uggh, didn't finish my Soriano thoughts
Unless he has a surprising resurgence, he’s going to soon not be a viable starter even as a DH (he was only an average hitter this year).
A "surprising resurgence" for Soriano?
The only way that happens is if somehow he manages to get younger. I don’t think anyone, let alone any baseball player, has figured out how to make time reverse its course.
I know it's generic.
I didn’t really expand as much as I would want. I just listed some of the more significant thoughts I hope for this offseason.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
Sorry, that title may have sounded harsher than I meant it to
by SouthernCub on Oct 13, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Your fine.
I pretty much agree with your responses.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
Not what I'd do, exactly, but I'm guessing young Mr. Theo will:
1. Not fire Quade. I expect a wholesale change over in personell and he won’t want to bring in a big named manager (unless his sole choice is only available now) and just let Quade take the bullet for the on-field product for next year.
2. Not pick up the Aramis option. He’s 33 now and what’s gained for 2012 and 2013 when he may still be able to produce if the rest of the team is being rebuilt. Money better spent elsewhere.
3. Will spend what money he has on pitchers. Therefore, LaHair, Colvin, Dewitt, and Barney probably stick around.
4. Trade Soto for prospects. He’s 28 and not improving and either arb eligible this year or next.
5. Trade Byrd, if he’s still under contract, for prospects, or not re-sign him. At 33, see my comments on Aramis.
6. Not sign Pujols or Fielder. I may be wrong about this if he can find a taker for Zambrano and Soriano where the Cubs eat less than 50% of the remaining dollars.
My expectation is Theo will spend the first year trying to get the payroll managed to equal the value he sees on the field and not spending unless there is real value in return for 2013 and beyond.
may addition by subtraction be real
by N Oakley on Oct 13, 2011 9:36 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I disagree on a lot of these
1. I’d be very surprised if Quade isn’t let go. Not that I think it’ll make much difference in 2012, but I think he’s going to want to start fresh.
2. Fine, as long as you understand that we’ll likely take a substantial step back at 3B for the foreseeable future by letting him go.
3. People keep saying “spend on pitchers.” I agree that starting pitching is a huge need for us right now, but I don’t think people are actually looking at how mediocre the free agent market is for starting pitchers. This isn’t the year to “spend big” on starting pitching.
4. Soto is arbitration eligible this offseason and next offseason. He was actually arbitration eligible this past offseason as well. Given that he’s cost-controlled for two more years and coming off a down year, I’d actually keep him for 2012. Don’t sell low on a guy who’ll still be relatively inexpensive next year and is (even in a down year) an above-average option at C.
5. Byrd is under contract for one more year at $6.5 million. I don’t think his age is a big issue for one season. He’d be relatively easy to move given his price.
6. We aren’t going to get a deal for Soriano or Zambrano in which the Cubs eat less than 50% of their contracts unless we take on someone else’s similarly-bad deal in return. That said, considering the lack of quality starting pitching available this offseason, I’d go after Fielder this offseason since there isn’t going to be a similar-value 1B available next offseason. I’d make the move for starting pitching next offseason (when there’ll theoretically be better value available).
by SouthernCub on Oct 13, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't have any issue with what you want.
My comments were merely predicting what Theo may do to try to right the ship long term. This, of course, only based on a few interviews and other peoples insight on his baseball philosophies.
may addition by subtraction be real
And I don't think Epstein will do those things, either
based on the logic I gave. I guess we’ll just have to see.
by SouthernCub on Oct 13, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
2 points
Would you be disappointed if Theo decided to keep Zambrano (for many of the reasons you listed above?) – makes a lot of sense to me and I believe it’ll make a lot of sense to Theo. Some people on here think I’m crazy for wanting to keep Z, but I think its the right move at least to start the 2012 season and see what happens. I just don’t see much use in paying 75-80% of his salary for him to pitch for the Marlins…..
As for starting pitching, there may not be any Roy Halladays out there, but there are some really solid pitchers who could probably be had for a 3-4 year $10M Ted Lilly type of deal. I’m a big advocate of the Cubs trying to sign Edwin Jackson and keeping Zambrano.
I really like a rotation of Garza/Jackson/Dempster/Zambrano/ and one of Wells or Cashner. There’s not a #1 starter among them, but there is a high #2 starter (Garza) and 3 really solid #3-4 starters between Jackson/Z/Dempster, and the potential for a high end starter in Cashner (w/ Wells being a backup plan).
There are going to be at least 3-4 legitimate #1 starters on the FA market after the 2012 season, and with Dempster and Zambrano’s salaries off the books, we should have the payroll flexibility to sign at least 1 of them.
The emotional issues are the only reason not to ride out 2012 with Zambrano
On talent alone, it’d make more sense to just keep him for the year. If you keep him for 2012, he gives you #3-4 starter quality (albeit overpriced). And then, at season’s end, you decide whether to offer him arbitration (to get a draft pick or two if he declines) or not. The only question is whether Epstein will consider Zambrano to be a must-move or whether he is willing to wait it out like you mention.
As for the other rotation spots, I’m not yet sold on Jackson. I’m certainly not sold enough to commit 3-4 years to him. It might work out, but I’d be hesitant. I think I’d rather sign a couple of “rebound” types to cheaper 1-year deals to allow our finances to clear out. Then, I’d go all-in next offseason when the pitching market should be better.
The best reason to dump Zambrano...
… is to send a message that the culture is changing, that enabling behavior like that will no longer be tolerated.
His talent level, I think, isn’t such that the Cubs absolutely must keep him.
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Another way to change the clubhouse culture is to win some friggin ball games!
a winning clubhouse = a good clubhouse. a good clubhouse full of shitty players is still not going to win anything, but it seems like that is what a lot of BCB Cubs fans want. Another (better) way to change the culture would be for Theo not to waste money on flawed players like Bradley, Grabow, Soriano, and Fuke and buy some players that are, I don’t know, actually good at this game of baseball like Prince Fielder.
His talent level, I think, isn’t such that the Cubs absolutely must keep him.
This statement’s kind of a head scratcher. Without Zambrano and no FA signings our rotation consists of Garza/Dempster/Wells/Coleman, maybe Cashner, maybe they resign Lopez. I have less than zero faith in anybody after Garza and Dempster. So the Cubs would need to go out and sign not just 1, but likely 2 starting pitchers who they will have to pay all the while paying at least $14M to watch Zambrano pitch elsewhere. That seems like a stupid move. If we had a young cost-controlled pitcher in the farm that was any good, I’d be okay with paying for Zambrano to pitch somewhere else, but we don’t and none of those guys (outside of maybe Wells) has any chance at being even a half-way decent 4-5 starter. Zambrano would be better than both of them and he has the ability to still be very very good.
You're not even considering the possibility of trading for a starter.
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I've considered that, but the minor leagues are barren
we don’t have the prospects to make a trade for a good starter. Outside of BJackson and the Czar, most of our top 20 players regressed. I’d be okay with getting rid of Czar, but not BJackson.
Even if we trade for a starter, we’d still be paying Zambrano AND this new starter and it seems like the Cubs should avoid paying two times to fill one rotation spot. And I don’t care what any MSM say, the Cubs are going to have to eat a lot more than $10M to get rid of Zambrano, closer to $14M, IMHO. The only way I would be okay with trading Zambrano and eating salary is if there was a viable low-cost, starting pitcher coming up from the minors who has a high upside, but the Cubs don’t have any of those. That’s why I’d rather trade Soriano and eat his money because we actual have an OF prospect who appears to be ready for the majors in BJax who could replace Soriano.
Good organizations don’t trade useful players to create more holes on the team, Look at what Theo did with Nomar and Manny, he replaced those guys right away with good players in Cabrera and Bay in multi-team trades and didn’t have to eat a ton of money when the trades were made.
Maybe he’ll be able to do the same thing with Zambrano or maybe he’ll look at Zambrano’s performance over the last 3 years and decide to keep him to start the season and if the Cubs are out of contention, trade Z for a decent prospect and eat less money.
That’s what I believe a well-run, smart organization would do and ultimately, that’s what I believe Theo will do, I don’t think he has ever sold low on players, like so many want the BCB posters would like the Cubs to do…….
Your love affair with Z is head scratching.
While you’re assessment of the Cubs’ in-house options isn’t all wrong, replacing Z’s production just isn’t as hard as you think it is.
He has some talent, but he’s also clearly on the decline. There’s really no reason at all to expect that he could return to the level of a 3 WAR SP. If you wander through his Fangraph’s PitchFX, you can see that the velocity on all his pitches is steadily dropping. Simply, there’s a lot of miles on that arm… and it isn’t getting better.
He’s not useless as a SP, and I’m not inferring as such… but bringing him back for the sake of “ohmygodwhatwilltherotationlooklikewithoutZ!!!!!!” (particularly when Z is no sizable improvement) is simply far more trouble than he is worth.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I don't have a love affair with Z, I have a problem with the COST of replacing Z
because it will be Zambrano’s salary + the cost of his replacement. And I don’t believe in any of the in-house pitchers (Coleman/Spellcheck/Wells), If I had faith in our current rotation options, I’d be all in on trading Zambrano. So that makes his replacement a likely FA signing and the going rate for a decent FA starter (like EJackson or Buerhle) will start at $10M AAV (probably more like $12M though). So we’d be paying at the very least $22M for Zambrano’s rotation spot, and that’s being conservative. That’s a stupid way to spend money.
And most people have known that Zambrano’s velocity has been dropping for a few years now, so your not pointing out any new information there. Why not take a look at his other peripherals, which are quite consistent with his career numbers.
I posted this in another thread
What decline in peripherals?
outside of declining velocity, more HR/9, his BA against being up 0.039, I’m not seeing a lot of "diminishing peripherals". His FIP and xFIP were up, but all of those might be fluky. Usually when pitcher’s decline starts to become problematic, you also see changes in other peripherals. And there is a lot more evidence in his peripherals suggesting that he was basically the same pitcher in 2011 that he has always been. His BABIP, WHIP, K/BB ratio, GB%, FB%, LD%, %LOB, . His 2011 numbers in these peripherals were right in line with his career averages.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=305&position=P
and regarding WAR, Zambrano would have had a lot more WAR had he pitched in more games in 2010 and 2011. I’m pretty sure you’re the poster that has compared Zambrano’s WAR production to that of Randy Wells and said that Wells is a better (or at least) equivalent to Zambrano, which is so misleading because of the difference in innings pitched (favoring Wells) between the two pitchers.
Between 2009-2011, Zambrano has averaged 1 WAR / 65.2 innings and Wells has averaged 1 WAR / 78.5 innings. This difference would have been much greater in favor of Zambrano had Lou not been an idiot and screwed with him in 2010 and who knows what his final 2011 numbers would have looked like had he pitched more innings, He might have finished the 2011 season on a tear like he did in 2010.
And since you compared Zambrano to Doug Davis, Doug Davis has produced 1 WAR / 119.3 innings between 2009-2011.
So, I’d rather the Cubs roll the dice with Zambrano to start the season, spend the extra money on upgrading at other positions where we have a greater need, and see how the team is doing at the trade deadline and make a decision regarding Zambrano then.
I’m not the only one talking in this way, at least a couple of articles in the papers that I’ve been reading have suggested the same thing (Gene Wojciechowski, and a couple of others, Rick Morrissey is one I think) are thinking the same way I am. Keep Zambrano and get rid of Soriano.
Citing
Rick Morrissey isn’t going to help your argument. In fact, as a pot stirrer (a la Rosenbloom), it really only reinforces that it is a bad idea.
And you are rather misrepresenting Wojo’s article. He says Z has “some value”, but thinks he may return because Ricketts won’t eat the money. That’s not exactly the same as saying the Cubs should keep Z, as you clearly advocate.
On the money, we don’t know what the Cubs would have to eat to get rid of Z. In the Wojo article you posted, he noted the Cubs might get up to $8M of relief (though likely less). While you can present the money spent as $22M for one spot, the better and more practical way is to realize that you have to get rid of the cancer that is Zambrano. You simply can’t have a ballclub under the auspices of “culture change” that includes Z. While nobody loves paying someone to not do something (like pitch for your team), a worse “use of money” is to continue paying someone to be part of the problem.
The cost of making that mistake go away is going to be somewhere between $10-18M. And while the cost of adding Buerhle or Jackson may indeed be in the range you listed, you can look at that in one of two ways. On one hand, Theo could believe that is a good value at which to add a SP. On the other hand, Theo could decide that isn’t a good price and simply roll with what he has for 2012 (with the understanding there’s very little possibility the Cubs’ record in 2012 is relevant)… or he could deal for a SP.
That’s great that Z’s other peripherals are consistent. His on field production is clearly slipping. And why in the world would you assume his FIP and xFIP were “fluky”??? His xFIP has actually been awfully consistent since 2006 while his FIPs were down the previous two years before rising last year.
His K/9 was down and HR/9 were up dramatically last year… and he even benefited from being “lucky” with a lower BABIP. Put it all together with his age (particularly the “miles” on his arm) and there’s really no logical reason to think he could be better next season than he was last year.
I actually wasn’t the one comparing Wells and Z. But, we can.
2009 WAR: Z 3.6 (28 starts), Wells 3.0 (27 starts in his rookie season). Edge, Z.
2010 WAR: Z 2.3 (20 starts, 36 appearances), Wells 3.2 (32 starts). No edge, these end up being similar rates, based on starts.
2011 WAR: Z 0.9 (24 starts), Wells 0.1 (23 starts). Edge Z.
TOTAL WAR: Z 6.8 (72 starts plus some relief work), Wells 6.3 (82 starts)
Even throwing out that Wells was clearly still hurting for at least two months following his injury last year, you’re talking about a WAR edge for Z of at most 1 win over three seasons. So, if you have no confidence in Wells… it is hard to have any in Z, who has had similar results the last three seasons. Wells is no star. He’s a 4th SP at best and more likely a 5th. Which makes Z… a 4th starter when he’s not melting down.
We don’t know how Lou “messing with” Z affected Z in 2010… and we sure can’t assume he would’ve posted good numbers (nor can we assume he would have stunk). And we sure can’t assume he would’ve gone on a “tear” at the end of 2011, following his latest temper tantrum.
The reason to move Z is simple and two-fold: For one, he is part of the old culture that needs changing (see the line regarding teammates from the Wojo article). Secondly, there’s nothing in his performance to suggest he is the difference between anything of consequence for the 2012 Cubs. The Cubs put up with a lot of his garbage when his talent outweighed the detriment. That’s no longer the case. So given that 2012 is a transition / rebuilding year, there’s no compelling reason to “roll the dice” and keep Z around.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Oct 14, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
No way Z can stay
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 14, 2011 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions
The only question is whether Epstein will consider Zambrano to be a must-move or whether he is willing to wait it out like you mention.
Looking at this in a vacuum, emotional issues withstanding, and knowing Epstein’s track record, Its hard to believe Theo would view Z as a “must-move” player.
I’m not yet sold on Jackson. I’m certainly not sold enough to commit 3-4 years to him. It might work out, but I’d be hesitant.
I don’t know, if you go look up Jackson’s stats on fangraphs, he’s been averaging 3.73 WAR over the last 3 seasons. If he could be had on a 3-4 year deal at $10-12M AAV, I’d do that deal in a heartbeat. 3.73 WAR on the FA market should be worth a little over $16M per year. I think a lot of people share your skepticism regarding Jackson, but the numbers indicate that he’s a very good pitcher.
Having to eat 50% of Soriano's and/or Z's contracts would be stone bargain for the Cubs
That they should take in a second. I’m afraid that 75-80% is closer to the mark.
I think you misunderstood what I said
I said that the only way we’d get a team to pay more than 50% of Zambrano’s salary would be if we took one of that team’s bad contracts in return. In other words, we wouldn’t really be saving money – we’d just be trading bad contracts.
That was my point – the 50% number simply isn’t a realistic possibility.
by SouthernCub on Oct 18, 2011 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions
You wouldn't get much back for Byrd
He’s not a very hot commodity and would be part of a package but people aren’t going to give you much for him.
Agreed on all points, but still hopeful that #1 won't happen.
"You know they're not going to lose 162 consecutive games." -Harry Caray
My prediction is based on a theory of Theo taking the year
to see how he fills out the roster to determine what kind of manager he wants/needs for the players he acquires and to allow time for more contracts to come off the books.
may addition by subtraction be real
I don't think you acquire players and then get a manager that works with them
You hire the manager you want for the team you plan to assemble.
Other than NBF, no one is going to be expecting the Cubs to win 95 games next year. There will be some patience shown by most fans.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 13, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with that statement, usually.
I personally think 2012 will be a complete rebuilding year, not quite the 02 and 03 Tigers, but a struggle to .500 and not contending.
I hope Quade is gone, but my hunch is that Theo will be revamping the major leaque roster and will figure might as well let Q’s record take the hit and see how the 2013 roster is coming together before cementing a long term option at manager.
may addition by subtraction be real
I trust Theo to do a better job than I
or just about anyone on this board. It feels good to say that. I didn’t have any faith in Hendry to have any kind of long term plan, comprehensive system in place, or moves that were smarter than the moves made by other teams.
I feel like I can sit back and enjoy where Epstein takes us. I look forward to seeing the plan.
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Oct 13, 2011 9:52 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Anybodies thoughts on a Z+Cash for Figgins trade?
Hope he can bounce back to career norms at the plate and be a stop gap for 2012-2013 at 3B. Sure he won’t have the power everybody seems to enjoy from 3B, but a switch hitter that if he can return to form would be 280BA/350OBP with some speed on the pads. Maybe moving out of Safeco will help. But I don’t think Seattle will want another Cubs disaster. However, Figgins is owed 9MM for ‘12 and 8MM in ’13 with a 600PA vesting option for ’14 worth 9MM again. Just thinking both contracts are about equal, and if the Cubs throw in at least 9MM and get out of Figgins contract completely maybe it’d be worth it to them.
Don't care for it
Figgins was bad in 2010 and atrocious in 2011. He’ll be 34 in January, and his entire game is reliant on his speed. And he’s on the hook for 2012 and 2013, and if we actually play him in 2013 he’d be on the hook for 2014.
I probably would prefer a DeWitt/Baker platoon next year and DeWitt in 2013 to Figgins. If we’re hell-bent on getting rid of Zambrano, I think we can do better than getting invested in another aging, mediocre player who is well past his prime. I’d rather trade Zambrano for a couple million dollars savings and a no-name minor leaguer than lock into another overpaid declining veteran.
by SouthernCub on Oct 13, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh I'm weary on Figgins also, but I look at it as 2 birds with one stone.
If the Cubs MUST get rid of Z, their money for what’s left on the contract matches up nicely. It also gives options for either a 3B or 2B depending on the route Aramis goes. If he can come back to form, maybe he’ll be useful as a stopgap at 3B or utility IF/backup CF. I don’t know if it’s just me, but I like the idea of a switch hitter that can play 2B/3B and have a little speed. It all comes down to that if Z has no chance to play for the Cubs, might as well get something that MAY be useful. If Figgins doesn’t play close to par, then limit him to utlity player in 2013 so he won’t get that vesting option.
by ubercubsfan on Oct 13, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
It doesn't match up nicely financially
if the Cubs send money with Zambrano, and it doesn’t match up financially if Figgins’ option vests. And it doesn’t kill two birds with one stone if he continues to stink.
I think my beefs with it are this:
1. why do you think he will come back to form? he’ll be 34 and has been bad for 2 years now.
2. if he does stink, you’re invested $10 million in 2013 for a useless piece.
3. I don’t see Figgins as an upgrade over what we already have at 3B behind Ramirez
I see 2012 as a rebuilding year. That trade gives slightly more flexibility in 2012 (when we don’t really need it) and takes away flexibility in 2013 (when we could need it). I’d rather either ride it out with Zambrano in 2012 or find a way to move him without adding burden after 2012.
Personally, I'm all for keeping Z. But this is only viewed as IF the Cubs MUST move him they will have to pay half his wage or more.
Some are suggesting a low minor league player. But this won’t solve any 3B issue if Aramis leaves. My idea is that you may get Baker/Dewitt performance at 2B/3B from someone who might be a good low risk high reward player. If Aramis is gone, and Z must not play in Cubbie Blue, then I think it makes sense. The extra 9MM is because Z is a headache. Also, Figgins’ 8MM ‘13 salary would still be less than Aramis by about 4MM a year. I’m just looking at this as a “If Aramis leaves, try this trade” situation.
And I'm just saying that even in a "MUST move Z" situation...
we can probably find better deals. I’d rather eat Zambrano’s salary and just play DeWitt/Baker at 3B than pay $8-9 million in 2013 (when we could be decent) to Figgins. I don’t see a ton of reward to be had with Figgins.
AMEN
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Oct 14, 2011 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Lets make a trade!
Trade Marmol and Soto
Trade for Shields
Trade for Carl Crawford
In my lifetime please!
If the Red Sox want us to take Crawford for getting Epstein, I would be for it, or any of the pitchers that were supposedly drinking in the clubhouse.
All are better than what we have at those positions.
I would take a Beckett, Dempster, Garza, Lester, Lackey rotation…..
I know. I know, it would cost to much, But it beats soem of the alternatives we sent to the mound this year!
I would rather have brenly manage than ryno but that's just me.
"I always tell people I want to live to be 150 and they say why would you want to do that. I say, well there's a few people I haven't made mad yet, I want to get them. "
-Mike Ditka
by garyfencikrapping on Oct 13, 2011 12:01 PM CDT reply actions
How about Sandberg as Brendly's bench coach to get some sort of MLB coaching experience before being thrown into the wolf pack.
by ubercubsfan on Oct 13, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Hell, one step further, allow cameras into the dugout and let him be a manager/brodcaster!
Really get that manager’s perspective on things as they unfold.
by ubercubsfan on Oct 13, 2011 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
ok, here I go with my opinion,
Reassign Quade to a personnel position, if he really is a good guy, that would be a fit for him.
Try to trade Z to the Marlins for Logan Morrison, if there is bad blood on both sides, then we could offer to take a chink of Z’s salary, and maybe a borderline prospect, and see if they bite.
I agree on taking fliers on pitchers who are coming off of bad years, as long as the contracts are not paying them good year salaries.
And, the one that will get the most negative, let ARam walk and go after Kouz, he’s potentially better defensively, and has something to prove, not to mention that he should hit better in Wrigley and will be tons cheaper than Prince or Albert.
Some FA or trade targets to consider
Pitchers:
Francisco Liriano (trade) – I’d like to see if he can come cheaply. He’s maddeningly inconsistent, but still has tremendous upside.
Paul Maholm (FA) – Pirates waivering but might decline his $9M option, and are not giving him a long term deal. We might get him for less than that per year on a 3 year deal or so. Particularly if we traded for Liriano, it would be good to have another solid lefty in case of injury. He’s not spectacular, just solid.
Jeremy Guthrie (trade or FA) – The Orioles seem hesitant to lock him up, he’s in his last year of arbitration and he consistently throws 200 innings. Could be non-tendered. Would be a solid 4-5, innings eater type. 32 years old though, so I might be talking myself out of this one.
HItters:
Nick Markakis – would the O’s consider trading him as his salary begins to escalate on his long term deal (signed through 2014)? Don’t know what’s happened to him, he looked like he was going to be a real star, but he’s struggled the last two years. I wonder how he would respond to being in a new organization?
Chase Headley (trade) – Earlier in the season I speculated that he might be a solid buy low option at 3B (good defense, much better hitter away from Petco), but he really came on strong until he got hurt. Don’t know what the Padres plans are, but he’s in his second round of arbitration and they might prefer to sell now rather than later.
Mitch Moreland (trade) – He started out really well for TX, but struggled down the stretch and in the playoffs so far. He has a reputation as a good defender at 1B, and should settle in as a 20-25 HR guy. Can play OF as well. Big drawback is that he can’t hit lefties. TX might move him so they can play Young and Napoli at 1B and leave the DH spot open for Hamilton on occasion, or pursue Fielder.
Logan Morrison (trade) – He’s my first choice to play 1B next year, but who knows whether he can be had in a trade. There’s reason to suspect he might wear out his welcome in Miami sooner than later, but we’ll have to wait and see. Still has loads of promise and the Marlins would be foolish to give him up easily. But judging by some of the Marlins recent decisions…
Daric Barton (trade) – Little power, but great plate discipline and exceptional 1B defense. Was hurt for most of the year and now Oakland has an extremely crowded stable of 1Bs (Carter, Allen, Ka’aihue). I guess he’d be Casey Kotchman with a little room for growth. Of course, there’s always Casey Kotchman too…
Matt Murton (FA) – I know some people roll their eyes when his name comes up, but the fact is when he played full time for us, he was good. Not a superstar, but above average. He won’t command a lot, and could be useful OF depth if we can rid ourselves of Soriano. Let him split time in LF with Colvin or Campana and see what he can do.
Liriano looks like
a potential signing for the old Cubs. A player that was good, but is trending bad.
This is the type of signing I’m hoping fresh ideas shies away from. Maholm and Guthrie are possible fill in arms until something better develops, provided they can be had super cheap.
may addition by subtraction be real
Really?
When I think about the “old” Cubs, I think about signing guys coming off career years for unreasonable amounts of money and years. Liriano is in his last year of arbitration and would be a buy low with high upside. Agreed that you only sign Maholm or Guthrie if the price is low enough.
As long as Peter Angelos owns the Orioles, they will never trade Markakis.
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or Roberts
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 13, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Is he still playing...?
.221/.273/.331 with 6 stolen bases for 2011.
Guess not.
may addition by subtraction be real
Was more a poke at 2007-2008 offseason than anything else
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Starting pitching has to be addressed.
-I’d love to get John Danks if it didn’t include Jackson or Cashner, but I’m not sure how likely that is. Maybe you could build a deal around Szczur, Mcnutt, and someone like Ben Wells, but I’m not sure if KW would bite.
- I’d be fine with Edwin Jackson at the right price.
-Move Cashner to the rotation and trade Wells
-Trade Z to Miami
Garza, Danks, Jackson, Dempster, Cashner sounds like a big improvement over this past season.
I’m a believer in the pen, but no matter how good our 6-8 inning guys are, Marmol has to regain is 2010 form. I’m pretty confident Kerry will be back. Samardzija/Wood from the right side and Marshall/Russel from the left gives you plenty of good 7th and 8th inning options, and I’m also excited to see what Beliveau, Dolis, and Carpenter can bring. Not to mention the addition by subtraction that is John Grabow
-As for position players, I’d obviously love to see Fielder/Pujols. Cuddyer or Kubel would be interesting options for the OF, but I’m not sure we could afford either if we were to add Pujols/Fielder, Jackson, and Danks.
-As long as he’s not traded, BJax should be the CF opening day and whether or not he can produce at the top of the lineup right away could be a big key for the offense. If he could hit first or second with an OBP at .350+ with 20+ steals and 10-15 HR, he and Starlin could make for a pretty dynamic 1-2 punch.
-Trade Soriano and move Byrd to RF. I think you could sell Soriano to an AL team willing to pay him 4-5 mil a year. I wouldn’t mind seeing Byrd traded, but at the same time it would leave us with no OF depth and poor OF defense.
-Bring back Reed Johnson and have Tony Campana as your 5th outfielder. Give LaHair a shot in LF, and if he’s exposed let Johnson and Campana split playing time, or maybe even give Flaherty some starts if his bat looks good.
-Let Flaherty and Lemahieu battle for the 3B job with Baker getting looks vs. LHP. Non-tender DeWitt!
-Barney should start the year as the starting 2B. If both Flaherty and Lemahieu are out-hitting him at some point, put Darwin on the bench and move one of Flaherty or Lemahieu over to 2B.
-I’m very torn over Soto. I want to believe in Welington Castillo, but at the same time I still feel like Geo can bounce back to his 08/10 level. I’d shop Geo around and get a feel for a return. Maybe we could get a good enough prospect to flip into a Danks trade. But if Geo does return hopefully that spells the end of Koyie and either Castillo or Clevenger can take the backup duties.
These moves may not make us a 90-win team overnight, but I feel like stabalizing the pitching staff and getting a prize 1B would put us in good position and only be a couple moves away from a successful 2013.
I like most of these moves
I would only say that I wouldn’t give up on Wells and his value is pretty low now for trade. Wells put up War’s similar to Jackson who would cost a lot more. I would only add Jackson if Danks wasn’t available.
You know Danks is a FA...
after this season?
D98 mistaken, a hyperbole as in a funny or revisionism as in trying to make a new fact to confirm a prejudice
Do YOU know
that Danks is only a FA if the Sox don’t offer him his final year of arbitration, which seems awfully unlikely (even if they decide he needs to be moved, you still offer arb and then just deal him)?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I think I misspoke...
I was referring to “after this season” as if this season was over. So after the 2012 season, he’d be a FA. That is correct, right?
D98 mistaken, a hyperbole as in a funny or revisionism as in trying to make a new fact to confirm a prejudice
Yep.
True FA (barring an extension, of course) after 2012.
Small chance he could be a FA this off-season if the Sox non-tender him, which seems unlikely (more likely to offer arb and then deal).
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Yes.
And if were completely writing off 2012 and looking forward to 2013 of course you don’t make this trade. But if you feel like a trade for Danks coupled with a few other moves is enough to compete with a Fielder-less Brewers team and a Pujols-less Cardinals team, then it’s worth a roll of the dice at the right price.
Fair enough.
I’d just rather not give up prospects if we could sign him (or a number of other quality FAs) after one more season.
I think solving the 1B and 3B situations this offseason is enough (while also exploring the Z/Soriano options). After this next season, we’d have definitive answers about Cash and Wells, be close to shedding Soriano’s contract (I think Z goes, Soriano doesn’t), and Byrd would be gone.
If we’re willing to spend, there are a lot of good/great pitchers available and also Soriano replacements available (Upton, Hamilton, Ethier, Kemp).
D98 mistaken, a hyperbole as in a funny or revisionism as in trying to make a new fact to confirm a prejudice
Fair enough.
I wouldn’t be against bringing back Ramirez along with Prince and focus on pitching next offseason either.
And, dreams be dreams...
Hamilton/Upton/Ethier/Kemp are all free agents as well.
D98 mistaken, a hyperbole as in a funny or revisionism as in trying to make a new fact to confirm a prejudice
No way Rammy resigns if Sandbergs the manager...
He knows he will get called out if Ryno is directing this team. He doesn’t want that.
feet firmly nailed to the floor of the Tyler Colvin bandwagon...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Oct 13, 2011 2:44 PM CDT reply actions
Nuke the site from orbit
It’s the only way to be sure.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
Priority number 1, in my opinion...
Would be to get rid of that “pitching coach” Riggins and try like hell to get Mike Maddux.
I’m assuming Zambrano will be gone, so I won’t even bother mentioning him.
I’d let Ramirez walk and try to work a trade for David Wright (a bit far fetched, I know)
Forget Pujols, forget Fielder, I wouldn’t mind seeing James Loney. LA may non-tender him, and Wrigley could help him out. His defense at 1st is definitely a plus.
Trade Geovany Soto and let Castillo and Clevenger get the playing time. I’ve been tired of Soto since 2009, and there’s plenty of other .230 catchers with mediocre defense.
Keep Koyie Hill as a bullpen catcher, Edgar Tovar never really impressed me.
Bring back Kerry Wood.
Obviously the starting rotation is still very thin. Outside of C J Wilson, there are no other big time options. To be honest, I don’t know what the trade market for pitchers is gonna be this winter.
You're worried about the bullpen catcher?!?!
And what do you propose they give up for David Wright? Magic beans?
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I hope so, but I'm not sure
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
It was a joke people...
I could give a rat’s ass about a bullpen catcher, just trying to add some fun.
Imagine an offense...
with Loney at 1B and Ramirez and Soto gone.
D98 mistaken, a hyperbole as in a funny or revisionism as in trying to make a new fact to confirm a prejudice
Imagine an infield defense...
With Castro and Ramirez on the left side, and an immovable tub of lard at 1st.
It’s not like Soto’s offense is that great; 2008=great, 2009=pathetic, 2010=very good, 2011=poor.
Granted you’d take that if he were an excellent glove man, but he’s not.
That's not quite accurate
2008 = 3rd best offensive catcher in MLB
2009 = average offensive catcher
2010 = best offensive catcher in MLB
2011 = average offensive catcher
You’re looking at his stats relative to the average hitter. But for his position, he’s been elite in two of the last 4 years and average in the other two.
That may be so...
But you still have to factor in the fact that his defense isn’t very good, and he may be able to bring a decent prospect in return.
The Cubs’ defense last year was atrocious; something which needs to be drastically improved upon.
I haven’t seen enough of Wellington Castillo to make any sort of judgement on his defense; let’s hope it’s not Jake Fox or Jesus Montero bad.
I think Soto's defense is just fine
The Cubs’ defensive problems were at other spots on the field, not so much behind the plate.
by SouthernCub on Oct 14, 2011 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Coaching stagg goes first
1. Clean house on the coaching staff
2. Get younger and cheaper. Trade Byrd to replenish the farm and give us some salary relief and replace with Jackson. Z and Sori get traded for more salary relief. We save about 15- 20 million. Giving us about 60-65 million to spend.
3a. Ramirez is out and Cuddyer is in. Cuddyer will come cheaper and is versatile enough that he can be moved around if a better 3rd base option comes up later.
3b. Look to trade for a 3rd baseman.
4. Get a quality starting pitcher. I would put my bids out for CJ Wilson and Edwin Jackson. I would also explore a trade for a pitcher like John Danks.
5. Sign Fielder. Cubs won’t compete in 2012 but he is a piece we will need in 2013.
6. Give the young guys a shot. Let Colvin, Jackson, Lahair start in the outfield. Add a veteran too the outfield mix because one of those guys will probably fail at the major league level. Kubel would be a good addition.
7. Hold onto Soto and let him build up his value and trade him to a desperate team in contention for a near ready starting pitching prospect.
New additons: Danks, Fielder, Kubel, Cuddyer,
Ramirez is out and Cuddyer is in. Cuddyer will come cheaper and is versatile enough that he can be moved around if a better 3rd base option comes up later.
Michael Cuddyer? A man who has played 14 games at third base since 2005? Your 3B defense would be horrific. This isn’t fantasy ball.
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our 3b defense is horrific
with Ramirez at 3B…
not suggesting Cuddyer would be adequate, but at least recognize that its already quite bad
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Oct 14, 2011 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Replenish the farm system by trading Byrd?
Good luck with that.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
All I want...
is Fielder and A-Ram signed. Explore Soriano/Z options and call it good.
D98 mistaken, a hyperbole as in a funny or revisionism as in trying to make a new fact to confirm a prejudice
Here we go
1. Fire Q and hire Ryno
2. Trade Soriano and cash for Figgins. They need a right handed power guy and want to get rid of Figgins. I think Figgins still has some value as a backup 2nd/3rd baseman.
3. Trade for Chase Headley. His numbers outside Petco are really good, they have other 3rd baseman coming up in the system. I don’t think it would cost much.
4. Trade Z (paying his whole salary), Marmol, and Matt Szczur for LoMO. IF we have to add one more good prospect then do it.
5. Sign Fielder to play 1B and Cuddyer to play RF and 2B sometimes.
6. Sign a low budget pitcher like Pinero or Maholm and pray to God it works out. Spending 100Mil on Sabathia or Wilson is not the answer.
by CubFaninStLouis on Oct 14, 2011 8:40 AM CDT reply actions
#4 - really? I mean, really?
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Is LoMo
the new LIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Stop calling, we have a winner.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Kind of. But they were actually supposedly looking at those guys
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Well at least in terms of fan intrest.
Lind was more of a BCB inside joke rather than a fanbase player obsession.
Also true
LoMo is somewhere in between
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
ZOMG GETITDONETOMIFYOUEVERGETHERE!!!1!!
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 15, 2011 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
A lot will be determined
by what happens with Aram. If he walks, that gives us another 15 mil or so to play with. Then you go after Prince or Albert. The money saved on Aram and not resigning Pena (forget about the split salary) is enough to pay one of them and front load the contract a bit. Also does Baker go to boston? If not, he would be ok for a season at 3rd, and cheap. I would rather have Baker at 3rd and the 1st baseman we want, than Aram for 1 more year and who knows what at 1st.
People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby
Baker cannot be the everyday 3B.
He was barely able to hit .200 off of RHP this year after struggling to even hit .100 of off them in 2010. His extremely drastic splits make him a perfect platoon option though, perhaps with Ryan Flaherty, a guy who hits RHP much better than lefties.
pitching
it’s looking more and more that we cant depend on coleman or wells.cashner is still an unanswered question.that leaves us with 2 pitchers.we know z wont be back.defense.these players need to learn how to field.situational hitting.stop hacking at everything and use your head.if we get theo on board he should bring in some new players.hendry would have trotted out the same team and ame mgr in 2012.it has’nt worked for 3 years. time for changes.
what i can't wait for is a new coaching staff.
of course hire ryno to run it all . maybe bring in someone like hershiser for the pitching coach.perhaps stealing tim wallach to be the 3b coach . bring in someone with experience to be the bench coach like buddy bell because i wasn’t sold on riggleman when he managed the cubs . find out where tim raines is at and make him the 1b coach . trading for david wright would be my first player transaction and then signing fielder . sign edwin jackson to help the rotation and sign cudyer to play rf .
No love for Davey Martinez as manager?
He’s an excellent candidate who has sat at Maddon’s right hand through multiple playoff runs. And he’s an ex-Cub, so that should satisfy his faction.
Of course, Quade still is the manager, so this is all speculation.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Oct 19, 2011 11:13 PM CDT reply actions
I'd say he's a similarly reasonable prospect to Sandberg
in that neither has any MLB manager experience. Sandberg has more managerial experience, Martinez has more MLB bench experience.
I’d be okay with either one, and it has nothing to do with “former Cub” status. I’d be okay with someone other than those two as well.

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