The Curious Case Of Compensation For Theo Epstein
Again today, I wrote this for Baseball Nation and rather than write substantially the same piece for BCB, I'm simply linking it here. While the Cubs and Red Sox have not yet agreed on compensation for Theo Epstein, I have no doubt that they will.
8 months ago
Al Yellon
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Can the announcement just be made already?
Stuff like this makes me real worried…
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
Well, Epstein still does officially work for them.
So going to the office would be something he’d do. I wouldn’t read too much into that.
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Wouldn't he also be somewhat involved in the compensation discussions?
Seems like Beane and DePo were talking compensation before Beane’s later-aborted attempt to go to Boston. If the same is true here, I could see Theo going into the office to help in those talks.
That is, unless Theo’s been totally removed from those talks. But I haven’t heard that he is.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Who's he going into the office to help?
I mean, is he going into Boston’s office to help the Cubs out with the talks? Else, that’s a pretty big conflict of interest there…
Yeah, I can't see Theo involved in thi.
I believe it’s between Tom Ricketts and Boston ownership.
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*this
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by Al Yellon on Oct 14, 2011 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
You're ^this-ing your own comment?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
by elgato on Oct 14, 2011 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're kidding, right?
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Look again.
I misspelled “this” in the original subject line. Was just correcting myself.
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Though I gotta admit
It looked a bit like that at first — I assumed elgato was making a wisecrack…
Sorry for the confusion.
Gotta start typing better.
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I know that, which is why I posted what I did
I think you’re reply was meant for el. At least it should have been!
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
*your
^that
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh. Ha!
Sorry, Al.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I thought you knew and were just joking.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
I wish, Katie.
Not that clever. :)
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Who's on first?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Oct 14, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
I like it.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
10 comments (and counting) over a typo.
Amazing.
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11
This comment thread goes to 11!
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I rec'd it
Help bring Boys of Spring The Movie to life!
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1742828131/boys-of-spring-the-movie
See, now that's clever.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
Even a broken clock, Katie.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
You may have started a trend over a type, recommending your...
…own comments.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
Typo
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
This^^^
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
by troutfishin on Oct 14, 2011 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
See, I must have started something, because you did it too.
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You trend setter!
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
What's on second?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Oct 14, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't know.
THIRD BASE!
"Juuuuuuussst a bit outside. He tried for the corner and missed..."
- Harry Doyle
by Rusty in Peoria on Oct 14, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Thi whol threa i littl sill - ge h onl forgo on lette
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
It's a valid question.
But there is precedent here. Beane was involved in his own compensation talks nine years ago. I have no idea what Theo’s exact role would be — but couldn’t he act as someone who starts conversations, brings up players’ names, methods that haven’t been broached?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Totally agree.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I would think...
…Theo would be excluded from being involved in these discussions for either side.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I'm not too worried about it
But I would feel a heck of lot better if it were official.
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Oct 14, 2011 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Boston fans don't seem all that happy about Theo leaving.
Saying, “Well, we got cash in return” won’t sit well. They’ll play hardball as long as they can, I’d think.
Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!
yeah, you could barely drop everything and go
He’d need a little time at least to hand things off to Cherington.
But , business as usual? highly unlikely.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions
He could learn to eat a Snickers with a knife and fork.
We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 for Hall of Fame.
I have a bad feeling about this.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
Eh ...
worst case scenario is the Red Sox make the Cubs pay through the nose for Theo. That’s not good — and giving up Brett Jackson would be a hit. But even BJax wouldn’t be considered an untouchable prospect in other organizations.
My guess is we end up giving up Trey McNutt and maybe somebody on the MLB roster (I read somewhere that the Sox were fans of Jeff Baker?).
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I think McNutt, Szczur, B. Jackson are all off the table.
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But the negotiations are stalling.
My point is that the Cubs could very well have to give up one of their untouchables, and I think McNutt ranks third on that list.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
IMO, the Cubs need to stand their ground on this.
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I think they should definitely attempt to stand their ground on this.
But do you think Ricketts will lose Theo Epstein over Trey McNutt?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I agree
I think they should definitely attempt to stand their ground on this.
The Cubs need to stand up to this bully (Boston) and not give in to their demands. They can have Jeff Baker and a non-top prospect or give ’em cash.
"The standard is the standard" Mike Tomlin
Alright, alright!
Blake DeWitt!
But that’s our final offer!
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
To a point I think they weill
I’ll bet Ricketts draws the line at Brett Jackson, but any other prospect is available (McNutt and Szczur both have their flaws as prospects) — maybe a utility-type guy like Baker would be a way of splitting the difference.
I wouldn’t be thrilled to give up so much, but the Cubs weren’t going to get an elite GM like Epstein cheaply.
I agree.
I hate to say it, but I’m actually starting to sour on this whole thing. The more I read, the more I get a bad vibe. Like about him wanting to get away from the public attention. IDK. Maybe he isn’t the right guy. On the off chance this does fall through, I think my attitude will be that it wasn’t meant to be.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
Boston has no hand
No hand at all. Stay strong Cubs. They are not taking Theo back. They already named his replacement.
by cozmotaylor123 on Oct 14, 2011 12:11 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
No hand? We have the only hand in this negiociations.
You really think Ricketts can walk away from any deal right here? Nope. He needs Theo Epstein now that it has came out through the media that he has agreed to a deal. What happens if he fails to get Theo? The Cubs fans who were finally happy for the first time in a while lose it.
All the pressure is on the Cubs. You don’t have to like it, but it is true.
My Twitter @totheights
I love the arguing about who has the upper hand.
Ricketts can’t let this fall through because of PR and the fans, but Boston doesn’t have any leverage as there is no way he’s coming back as Boston’s GM. It’s a tricky situation for both sides, but it shows me that this deal will eventually get done, and MLB may have to assist if it continues to drag out.
and Bud legalizes
pick trading in time to whisk away 3 Cubs picks
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
This is what I love
Cubs fan: Theo Epstein is the greatest GM ever — he’s gonna turn around our farm system, give us all 10 of baseball americas top 10 prospects every year. But, I wouldn’t give up a bucket of baseballs for him.
Sox fan: Theo Epstein Sucks. Lackey, Crawford, the list goes on! But, no way the Sox should let him go for less than Castro and Jackson.
by venknat on Oct 14, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I love making shit up too...
Once upon a time, there was a rhino named Lloyd who loved to eat pineapples. He lived on a quiet block on the suburbs with a family named the Elmersons. Elmer, the father, worked at a dry cleaners, the mother Bernice was a secretary at the middle school and they had two children 11 and 8 named Nicolas and Patty. They loved Lloyd very much and always made sure he had one fresh pineapple everyday. Then one day the police were called to the Elmersons’ home because Lloyd was a wild animal and had destroyed most of the interior of the house, fatally gored Patty, crushed Mrs. Elmersons’ femurs and knocked over the stove causing a serious gas leak. He was killed by a S.W.A.T. Team sniper and Mr. Elmer Elmerson was charged with various misnomers, a felony and is currently embroiled in a wrongful death civil case with his now ex-wife over the tragic death of their daughter.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
That's a sad story
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I just need someone to illustrate it...
I want to turn it into a popup book for early readers.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Nobody is saying we shouldn't have to give anything up.
Most people just want to hold on to Marshall, Garza, Cashner, Jackson, and Castro. That’s five names. FIVE. Give up anything in the organization other than those five guys and Cubs fans will be perfectly happy. I know we suck, but we have more than five guys with some value in this organization.
Really?
What about Szczur and McNutt? After that, the Cubs just don’t have that much in the minors of value.
Szczur and McNutt AND more prospects?
That’s a lot, but if the BoSox insist, I’d be willing to throw in some of our high upside A ballers. Wells, Golden, M Hernandez, Amaya, and Candelario, step right up! Hell, throw in a couple out of Lemahieu, Flaherty, Vitters, Castillo, Carpenter, Dolis, etc…. The Red Sox should not expect more than two top prospects back for a GM.
Dcr18 just said we were only protecting five names
There’s at least two others that are also being marked by at least some as “untouchable”. But no one else is all that valuable.
Alot of people have showed willingness to give up Szczur and McNutt.
I’ve only see Sully name those two “untouchable”. And like I replied to lugz, there is a medium between our five elite guys and our organizational guys. The Red Sox shouldn’t be expecting multiple top prospects in return for a GM.
He said that he thinks the Cubs have done so.
But I don’t think the Cubs are willing to lose Theo over Trey McNutt.
And he also said the Cubs need to stand their ground on that
Meaning he agrees with that position.
And then was shot down by everyone who replied to him.
I don’t think many Cub fans, including Al, will be devastated if we lose McNutt or Szczur. Obviously most feel like Dolis and Lemahieu are more fair compensation, but if it’s Trey McNutt or bust I don’t think people will start turning on Ricketts.
I think something like a combo of LeMehieu and Dollis is a fair offer
It’s giving some major league potential without offering up our top prospects.
I was being a bit sarcastic.
Of course they aren’t giving up eight players, just trying to show that there is a medium between our elite and our organizational fillers.
Can be hard to tell sometimes....
I kind of figured you were.
Oh, they have hand, cozmo.
And they’re gonna need it.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Who is Seth Mnookin kidding?
Who is Seth Mnookin? What kind of name is Mnookin?
OF COURSE there will be crazy public and media expectations. More so, I’d reckon, than in Boston, regardless of where Epstein grew up. Look at the fervor that has developed over this even before the announcement has been made. Does Mnookin have a clue about the Cubs and their history? His comment says no, he doesn’t.
Anyway, this will get done. When the Red Sox granted Epstein permission to talk, they sealed the deal. For them to now balk by trying to extract their own price in exchange is trying to dictate everything on their own terms, because well, they’re the Red Sox and they think they can do that. Did they think nothing would happen if they let them talk? They already jettisoned Francona, and Epstein and Lucchino have never been best friends. Boston comes out looking like Mike Brown of the Bengals if they try to stop this, making a guy sit and do nothing because their ego has been bruised by someone wanting to leave.
I’d suggest their exclusive contractual rights were ceded once they allowed Epstein to talk to the Cubs, even if they said nothing is final until they agree on compensation. It’s like giving your spouse permission to cheat and then when she wants to stay with her new boyfriend, you tell her to come back, it’s more than a little awkward.
Help bring Boys of Spring The Movie to life!
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by BeerCub on Oct 14, 2011 9:33 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree
He’s not going back and he will be a Cub in a few days. We are all just excited so this week feels like it has been going on forever.
by lshaffer_69 on Oct 14, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
"Okay, you can have Theo
but only if Bud voids Lackey’s contract."
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
That is fine
But the Red Sox don’t have to make a deal to appease their fans (with the mess we have right now, it can’t get much worse). The Cubs do.
My Twitter @totheights
As a Sawks fan,
what would you consider valid compensation? Just curious.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
I don't know the Cubs system enough.
Obviously, Brett Jackson…but even I don’t see that happening.
But to hear that we got a Cubs top prospect like McNutt or Szczur, I would be happy.
My Twitter @totheights
I'd give up our righty McNutt to get Epstein.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rimshot
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Oct 14, 2011 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll bet McNutt or Szczur is where this ends up, and I'd be OK with that.
Though I still say you guys can have Jackson if you also take Soriano :)
I don't think Tom will
do anything to appease the Cub fans. He will do what he feels is right for the Cubs.
No we don't
we move along to the next GM in line. And you have an unhappy GM as you’re GM in 2012. And yes, he will be your GM – you think Selig is going to allow him to be demoted for interviewing for a potential promotion with another team?
Maybe they should ask for the Mnookin.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Regardless of how things play out with compensation...
…Theo Epstein will no longer be the GM of the Red Sox even if a compensation deal isn’t worked out. This will probably go into arbitration which would allow MLB to negotiate just compensation, it could also mean (and this is a slim possibility) that Theo takes a year off and doesn’t officially begin his duties with the Cubs until 2013.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
Not with the way the front office has been behaving over the last few days.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
They've been ****s
But unlike Francona and BeerChickenGate, Epstein’s name has been kept clean, AFAIK.
Nah, they took some shots
at Theo too. Not as much as Francona, but Lucchino (and let’s not kid ourselves, he was behind this) smeared Epstein too.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 14, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Got a link?
I mean that sincerely, since I actually haven’t heard that.
Not Lucchino, but Henry
@SI_JonHeyman
Jon Heyman
How can john henry say he didn’t support the crawford signing (as he did on wbz-fm 98.5)? As
Seems like it’s a sour grapes swipe at Theo
Fixed tweet
@SI_JonHeyman
Jon Heyman
How can john henry say he didn’t support the crawford signing (as he did on wbz-fm 98.5)? As owner, he’s in charge
From the Boston Globe
Hatchet job.
To general manager Theo Epstein, acquiring Gonzalez by trade last winter from San Diego was crucial to solidifying the middle of the Sox lineup. But Epstein struck out in trying to beef up the bullpen, most notably by investing $12 million over two years in Bobby Jenks, so far a bust.
The Sox also suffered from the exorbitant signing of Lackey ($82.5 million over five years), as the righthander logged the worst ERA (6.41) among regular starters in team history.
While Epstein has accepted blame for signing subpar performers such as Lackey and Jenks, the owners share the responsibility of unanimously approving their signings. But Carl Crawford was a different story.
Ownership was divided over Epstein’s push to acquire Crawford as a free agent, sources said. At least one top executive believed Crawford’s skills as a speedy lefthanded-hitting outfielder seemed to duplicate Ellsbury’s. But the owners ultimately agreed to gamble $142 million over seven years on Crawford – a lost wager to date.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 14, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
This was right after
they slammed Adrian Gonzalez for his lack of “leadership skills” and his “grousing in the clubhouse” about the schedule, the inference that Gonzalez wasn’t as good a trade as it appears.
One thing that’s been lost in the Globe story was that it wasn’t written by the sports department who would have to go back into the clubhouse after writing this. They instead farmed it out to a reporter from the investigative journalism department.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 14, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I dunno...
These examples seem way, way, milder than the other stuff that Luccino has come out with. Not something I’d classify as “burning a bridge.” Though there’s now supposedly an interview from Henry himself making it look like Theo is really at the end of his term in Boston.
Supposedly
Henry finally admitted Theo had permission to talk to other teams
Gee, if the Sawks are upset at Gonzalez, too
The Cubs could relieve them of the burden of the rest of his contract as compensation. Fair is fair……
I don't find the Sox displeasure with AGonz too surprising
His “It was God’s will that we went 7-20 in September” comments couldn’t have sat well with Larry Lucchino and Tom Werner.
I don't understand this shit.
GMs sign good players. All of those guys are good fucking players.
Lackey, in his 1500 IP before coming to the Red Sox: 116 ERA+, 3.81 ERA, 102 wins. That’s a guy you want on your team.
Crawford, in his 1200+ games before coming to the Red Sox: 107 OPS+, 27.4 WAR. That’s a guy you want on your team.
Jenks, 329 games before coming to the Red Sox: 173 saves, 136 ERA+. That’s a guy you want on your team.
Gonzalez, 858 games before coming to the Red Sox: 137 OPS+, 21.5 WAR. That’s a guy you want on your team.
All five of these guys are good—really good players. It’s not a GM’s fault when a player doesn’t perform.
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Oct 14, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
It is a GM's job to foresee if a player will stop performing well
That’s not to say any GM should be expected to be perfect, and it’s not to say the good doesn’t outweigh the bad with Epstein, but it’s fair to criticize him for the bad acquisitions.
Wait, what?
That is an incredibly stupid sentence.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I know you're trolling me, and I know you're a troll,
but it’s still bothering me.
ಠ__ಠ
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Answer me this:
Who projected Lackey’s 66 ERA+?
Or Crawfords 0 WAR?
Or Jenks negative WAR?
You either being extremely obtuse or trolling. And you know what you’re asking is to predict the future, and basing GM performance off the unknown?! You know that, right? That’s now how you evaluate a GM. You don’t wait 20 years to see if he won a championship, because the deals a GM makes don’t occur in a vacuum, where you have the luxury of seeing how good a player’s going to turn out. I’ve see Harry Potter, the fucking Time Turner doesn’t exist.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Oct 14, 2011 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
No one predicted
that those guys would be this bad. If that’s your point, you’re correct.
But I think a lot of people predicted declines for all three of those players and that none of them would be worth what the Red Sox were paying.
John Lackey had been an quality starting pitcher for the Angels for almost a decade. Yet they made almost no attempt to re-sign him, and it’s not like LAA is a poor franchise.
Carl Crawford had been a left fielder with average power and average on-base percentages. He can’t hit lefties. His one 80 skill is speed and he was 29, an age where players start to slow down. Does that sound like a $20 million player over 7 years to you?
Bobby Jenks is a reliever, most of whom are disposable. His conditioning habits consist of how many pork rinds he can swallow at a sitting. He also is on the wrong side of 30.
Now on the other hand, no one could have predicted that these guys were going to fall off as much as they did. (Except maybe Lackey. I think the Angels knew something.) If you want to defend Epstein, you can say that he knew he was overpaying for declining talent, but he figured they’d still be better than his other options and hey, it’s not like the Red Sox were hurting for money.
I think the problem is that you two are not arguing the same point. It is the GM’s job to predict what players are going to do in the future, not the past. And you’re absolutely right in saying that while a decline on all three players was to be expected, the utter collapse of all three of those guys was something no one could have predicted.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 15, 2011 4:17 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think venknat is saying that it's like the difference between signing Adam Dunn and Milton Bradley
One disasterous result was hard to foresee, one was not entirely unpredictable from past observations.
Then there’s cases like Soriano that fall in the middle, where a five-year deal might have been justified, but a nine-year deal that takes a player into their late 30s season was possibly too risk-laden to be called sound management decision-making.
Sosa was the one deal where I never thought he’d live up to the contract at the time it was signed, where the player lived up to the money. Soriano flat hasn’t played up to his contract. You should be able to use that to evaluate a GM.
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Oct 14, 2011 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Explain to me how signing Adrian Gonzalez or John Lackey or Bobby Jenks or Carl Crawford appeared questionable.
The contracts might be questioned, but the players themselves were all generally in the peak performance range and above- to significantly above-average players.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
You could make the same argument for Soriano.
And Bradley. Both were perfectly fine players before they came to Chicago. And Zambrano was a perfectly fine pitcher before he signed his huge contract. And Hendry is vilified for it (and rightly so, IMO). Some of these flops were more forseeable (by us) than others. I expect a GM to foresee these things more than you or I, because it’s their job to do so. I don’t expect it every time, but when four such contracts pop up, it’s fair to point out the pattern.
Bradley was a perfectly fine player before he came to Chicago?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
He *played* well
His attitude was a different story. If you just gave me his OPS+ and WAR, I expect you’d find it was just fine.
Well that's a nice fantasy.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Here
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bradlmi01.shtml
His OPS+ and WAR just fell off a cliff after he came to Chicago. If Epstein should get a complete pass on signing those four guys just off WAR and OPS+, then Hendry should get a pass on Bradley.
I'll try again, so you can understand...
nobody care’s about your fantasy team.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Anybody else find it funny that he's using Milton Bradley as the example of bad GMing?
Because Jenks, Crawford, Gonzalez, and Lackey are totally like Bradley.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
If a signing should be good just because *we* didn't see it blowing up
Why the hell are GM’s getting paid millions of dollars? Maybe it’s because we can (and should) expect them to see things we don’t, and a pattern of failing to do so is fair game.
And I think it's fair to expect a GM to catch the hard cases too
at least a fair amount of the time.
At the same time, whiffing on Milton Bradley is much more embarassing then Crawford.
Every GM has their hits and misses, but the Bradley deal was frowned upon by the majority straight from the beginning.
and crawford was classy enough to own up to his bad season
rather than get himself run out of town
THEOOOOOOOOO
by jesus christos on Oct 14, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
And as I explicitly said before
It’s not everything, and I’d love Epstein to be the Cubs’ next GM, but a track record of bad FA signings, even ones none of us would have foreseen, is important to consider.
So you're basically giving his FA signings one season to work out?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
This is what I take issue with
GMs sign good players. All of those guys are good fucking players.
[Lists four guys that haven’t panned out, at least as of yet]
All five of these guys are good—really good players. It’s not a GM’s fault when a player doesn’t perform.
…
All five of these guys are good—really good players. It’s not a GM’s fault when a player doesn’t perform.
The last sentence is what I strongly take issue with. It’s a GMs job to put together a good team on the field. Part of that is getting guys who will perform (as opposed to who did perform, which as we know isn’t always the same thing, and is often predictable). Guys that get signed, and don’t do well afterwords, are a legitimate part of that conversation, even if the warning signs weren’t visible to us beforehand.
I guess this means Brian Cashman is also a shitty GM.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Huh.
Many here blamed Jim Hendry when players he signed didn’t perform.
But I guess Theo Epstein is exempt from that.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
If you sign crappy players like Bradley,
expect to be flamed for it.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Yes Al, that's exactly what we're saying.
Nailed it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Bradley always had potential that was constantly pissed away by attitude and injury problems.
He finally put together a career year in 2008, just in time to get a big contract in free agency. Let’s see, a 31 year old, injury plagued OF coming off a career year, in which he played 100 games for the first time in the last four seasons and bringing along a ton of baggage and a terrible attitude. Let’s bring him to one of the biggest pressure cookers in baseball with a relentless media, that’ll work great! Yea, alot of people saw what was coming.
Mank that would make for a shitty-ass GM.
I bet the entire team would consist of guy who’s futures you could predict:
Ryan Theriot: Shitty, but predictably shitty
Koyie Hill: Super shitty, but predictably shitty
Aaron Heilman: Model of mediocrity
Wellington Castillo: Easy to predict, mostly because he doesn’t play
Dusty Baker: Toothpick, every game
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Bradley was a nut job who regularly offered to harm anyone who criticized any aspect of his play
And could only stay in the lineup as a DH.
I *didn't say that.
I said that there was no particular reason to think Adam Dunn would suddenly hit .165, you can’t really blame Kenny Williams for that one. But Milton Bradley was a ‘known’ clubhouse cancer, and Hendry bid seemingly against himself to sign MB for 3 years while Bobby Abreu was waving his hands to get someone to sign him for a 1-year, $5m deal.
I think some free agent signings can be flagged when they are made, and it’s fair to use that when evaluating a GM.
And if you’re hiring away Theo Epstein because of his stellar track record, in the long view those signings are fair game to consider anyway. If you keep making bad bets, that goes against your track record – even if they looked good at the time. It speaks toward his player evaluation skills. It’s part of the record. Not determinate, but it’s part of the conversation.
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Oct 14, 2011 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
It's a large part of why
a farm system is so important. AAA guys that don’t translate are cheap losses. FA flops really suck.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
I'll take all of Epstein's "bad acquisitions" listed above over ANY of Hendry's "bad acquisitions"
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly. At this point it's too late for the Sox
1. Epstein obviously wants to leave, if only to get out from under Larry Luccino
2. The Sox brass hasn’t exactly been begging him to stay
3. The longer this goes on, the more it becomes impossible for them to reconcile
4. We Hold all the cards.
Any compensation we offer them at this point is a bonus. He’s gone anyway.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree, it appears we hold all the cards,
but if Ricketts has struck up a friendship with those in Boston, and would like to continue that friendship, it would appear to me that “fair” compensation would be something that would make both sides happy. I think Ricketts is more of the nice guy than the stick it in your ear type. So, negotiations go on until both sides walk away amicable towards each other.
We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 for Hall of Fame.
I think the Cubs' leverage is overstated here.
They can sit on Epstein and pay him to do nothing in the worst case scenario and wait for GM positions to open up in the fall.
Meanwhile, Ricketts would take a massive PR hit with the “ZOMG we are competing now!” crowd.
Boston is eventually going to get a higher compensation package than everybody thinks.
"Hey, why don't you people watch the game?"-my mom after viewing a wave going around Chase Field.
by Reynolds rapper on Oct 14, 2011 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
A proven commodity over a prospect?
One that could help from the field, the other from his desk. It’s a tough choice.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
by troutfishin on Oct 14, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
It's not that simple at all...
The real equation would have to be:
Theo and losing your top prospect vs #2 GM Choice and keeping your top prospect.
I highly doubt the difference between Theo and choice #2 is worth losing a top prospect, and top 40-50 overall in baseball, over.
Unless choice #2 would *also* be a GM under contract to another team...
Cause then, you’d be giving up some talent for him too.
Understood... but point still stands.
Even if it’s the #1 available option (Cherington, Hahn, etc.) I would rather have them than Theo and losing B Jax.
There's value in having a known (good) track record
We don’t know how an assistant GM would do when placed in the full GM role.
There you go..
Ricketts should give Cherington a call. You don’t have compensation when you give an exec a promotion to change clubs.
The Sawx can keep the guy they’ve just alienated, and been trying to push out the door for years – and we’ll take the guy they wanted to replace Epstein all along. Let John Henry and Larry Lucchino factor THAT into their calculations.
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Oct 14, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You have to have permission to talk to someone under contract
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
The Sox don't want to be in the middle of this mess any longer than they have to...
On top of all of the other crap that’s already happened, can you imagine if they called off talks of compensation for Theo and THEN refused to let their assistant GM, who they already told was being promoted mind you, the right to speak to another team about a major promotion?
Good luck.
See below
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Additionally, talking to Cherington would be seen as cheap and petulant
It’s not happening.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
How would it be seen as cheap and petulant?
We didnt get our #1 choice, he’s our #2 choice. Just because he works for the same company and the first choice didn’t work out means you abandon all hope of #2.
It’s not like Cherington was a nobody and we never had interest. He was on a short list of people that might take over the Cubs GM role.
You don't think it would be seen as a cheap ploy?
I sure do.
“You won’t give me what I want, so I’ll take something else from you.”
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
It would be different if Cherington wasn't on our wish list before this all went down
He was, therefore it’s just moving forward with filling our GM vacancy.
The Cubs goal isn’t to make friends with other ownership groups, it’s to field the best team and front office possible.
Same goal as the Sox, amazingly enough.
Which is why they’re not going to get rid of a known, excellent GM on the cheap if they can at all help it.
Of course they aren't
But when their not playing nice with us pisses off their employees, they’ve got some serious problems.
Everything about this whole thing is assumptions
I don’t feel it’s required to spell that out every single time someone posts. The fact is, there are ZERO facts in this whole thing.
Also, it’s common sense that Cherington would be a little raw about the scenerio.
But your conclusion
only holds if this assumption holds, and I dispute that assumption. Why the heck would an experienced front office executive not know that all the stuff that’s been going down the last few days is contingent on compensation?
I understand that...
But then if they were to deny him the right to interview for the Cubs GM position as well is where the issue comes in.
Yeah, I don't think the Red Sox would take it that far
But they’d probably still ask for some “small” compensation.
I actually do agree with you in that there’s nothing wrong for the Cubs to ask for permission to talk to Cherington — just don’t think that’ll be free either.
I guess the larger point is
Over the last couple days since the contract was “agreed to”, everyone in the media, and a lot of people here, have been assuming that this is a “done deal.”
This, to me, is just one of the worst assumptions I’ve ever seen accepted on such a grand scale. The point of compensation is such an obviously non-trivial issue that I can’t see why people haven’t seen it til now? And I find it very unlikely that any of the participants in the game — Ricketts, Epstein, Cherington, BoSox ownership, haven’t had this in their heads all along, knowing that this was a significant hurdle to overcome.
Then why are the stories in Boston media busy slagging Epstein?
The Sawks are busy knifing him in unattributed stories in the press. They can’t just bring him back after that and have everyone be happy campers.
and sign Pujols to a 14 year deal
33 per annum.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
That's not what the perception would be.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Who cares what the perception is?
If he was a legit target before the Theo (if he falls through), he needs to remain a legit target after.
Anyway, this is all likely moot as I doubt Ricketts lets this fall through.
That would be the BOS perception
And if you don’t think that your negotiation partner’s perception influences negotiations….
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions
The unwritten baseball rule
is that you grant permission for other clubs to talk to your employees if it is a promotion.
Right before Ricketts picks up his ball and walks home, he requests to speak to Cherington about his open GM position and tells Theo that the Cubs presidency contract will be their waiting for him after next year.
"All I want is food and creative love" - Rusted Root
by TheRiot Police on Oct 14, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
If it's unwritten, it isn't a rule
The Red Sox are under no such obligation, and with everything that they’ve done in the past two weeks, what makes you think they’d play ball?
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Because it would make them look even worse than they already do...
It would likely mean they have a pissed off GM in Theo, a pissed off assistant GM in Cherington, and no manager.
^This^
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Pissed off GM and assistant GM doesn't mean they'd do bad work
It’d be stupid to do, but neither of them are going to not give their best efforts if they want other jobs in MLB.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Not to mention that
It’s still an assumption, not fact, that Theo is just itching to leave Boston to come here, and that Cherington wouldn’t be understanding given the circumstances.
Cherington would most likely be pissed off...
That’s a safe assumption. “Hey, Ben, if Theo leaves we’re promoting you to GM.”
a week later… “Sorry Ben, we just couldn’t work out the compensation. Oh, by the way, the Cubs called asking if they could interview you and we sent them packing! Don’t worry, you’re still our assistant GM.”
I don't think they'd forbid a conversation
Just as they didn’t forbid one with Theo. In fact, they may accept less compensation for him than for Theo. But the Cubs aren’t just entitled to take other teams’ employees.
Including players
I know, no one brought that up here. But sometimes people seem to think the other 29 are there to help the Cubs.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Whatever happens...
I think we will probably start to see opt out clauses added to Front Office contracts….
Agents of this people want to get paid too and they don’t want to see their star employees prevented from taking promotions.
"All I want is food and creative love" - Rusted Root
by TheRiot Police on Oct 14, 2011 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Do they even have agents?
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions
They could.
But I don’t see this becoming that big of an issue.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Why would they want them?
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
If a middle exec had it written
into his contract that his former employer would be due compensation if he ‘up and left for a promotion’, wouldn’t that hurt the employee with the clause?
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
I took the opt out clause to mean the reverse
That he could leave if offered a promotion elsewhere, if he wanted, without compensation.
ok, gotcha
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
They don't have leverage
There are very few “star” executives. No one is going to give their employees that.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
But for those very few
you might see those clauses.
Possible
But I’d bet a large sum of money against it.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
This is all contingent on how much of a hardass the RedSox want to be about this
If they start being a pain about Cherington and Epstein, other execs will take notice…
Has a team ever had to give compensation
For promoting another teams assistant GM to GM with their permission?
That would be a new one for me.
There's been compensation for GM to President
Why is this different?
I can't tell you why it would be different
But as I’ve never heard of compensation for such, I would assume it is.
Probably a "perceived value" thing more than anything else.
If Cherington is perceived by the Sox to have more value than other assistant GMs, that would set a new precedent.
No precedent
The fact remains that there is no precedent in the history of baseball to offer compensation for a GM. Why should there be? The first time it happened with a manager, it was Piniella going to Tampa for Randy Winn – not an all-star, not a top prospect. The White Sox gave up 2 nobodies.
If a man leaves his job early, isn’t that his business? To seek out a promotion or even make a lateral move? Why should any team have to compensate a guy looking for a promotion?
I think Al’s right, and that the Cubs don’t owe them anything, and they should be happy to get any compensation at all. The fact that this thing has stalled most likely means that Lucchino is an asshole and he’s demanding more than he should, with no interest in a friendly long-term relationship with Ricketts. We should just stiff them, and see them just try and stop the deal.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Oct 14, 2011 10:31 AM CDT reply actions
nobodies?
Not a fan of the Marlins’ system, but they were Top 10 in their system, nonetheless.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
bench players at best
One guy is a light-hitting shortstop with a ceiling of a utility man, the other guy is a AA reliever with control problems.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Oct 14, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
If they were getting nobodies, they'd be
Low-A guys with bad numbers.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
MLB has to approve the deal.
That sort of scares me.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
This is an incorrect assessment of the situation
If a man leaves his job early, isn’t that his business?
Not if he is contractually obligated to work for one team. He could quit without permission, but he’d have to remain out of MLB until the contract expired.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
I could actually live with that.
He could pretend he isn’t working, borrow Bobby Valentine’s fake mustache and hide behind Randy Bush all year.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Oct 14, 2011 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Wouldn't be Randy Bush
Probably Josh Byrnes would “run” things for a year.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 14, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
The problem is we all have no actual idea of what the hell is going on.
And all this talk is posturing at this point until something official comes out from either side.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Oct 14, 2011 10:40 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Stop making sense.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2011 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Dust In The Wind
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
I know,
that’s Kansas. Just trying to run some late 70’s tracks on the post.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
I can't seem to face up to the facts
I’m tense and nervous and I
Can’t relax
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
You know, if I wrote that, people would be all over me ...
… for complaining about speculation.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Too soon
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
No, they wouldn't....but some of us might start complaining if you keep playing the "martyr" card about this stuff.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Well that's the sword you fall on
for being the moderator; everybody’s gotta respect your authoritah. Me, I’m just a celebrity, I can say things like that.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
A "celebrity"?
On what planet is that?
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Soup Club is my answer.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Oct 14, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That could be a planet.
It’s pretty far away.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I'm going to have to declare Dan the winner of this debate.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
You can't win, Al.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
But if we keep it all in, we'll get ulcers,
and lash out at others in inappropriate ways. It’s nice to have something to talk about so we don’t have to address the fact that the Brewers and Cardinals are competing for a spot in the World Series.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Oct 14, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Is that why my Crohn's is flaring up this week?
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Gross.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I didn't see an option to "choose your own disease" when I was born.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
You should have paid more attention.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Yeah, it's literally right there
most people just choose the “Squirt goo in my eyes” thing, but some people are slow on the uptake or freak about their eyes and they end up choosing something like Crohns instead.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Oct 14, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
I have a weird "eye" thing
in that I don’t want people touching them, so I got stuck with migraines.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Oct 14, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
I sense an odd thread starting ...
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Thankfully I'm pretty normal...other than, my little foot issues.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
That is 110%...
fucked up.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Oct 14, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
That hurts!!
I don’t want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it.
by cub in louies nest on Oct 14, 2011 4:40 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Read an article the other
day that there is a Doc in FLA who is experimenting with Pig Worms and Crohn’s. Theory is that we have purified so much of our food and water that our bodies are lacking the appropriate bacteria to fight off diseases like Crohns. The study is to have a the participants ingest Pig Worm eggs…they will hatch and eventually leave the body in a couple of months. They will leave behind bacteria to fight off the Crohns symptoms.
"All I want is food and creative love" - Rusted Root
by TheRiot Police on Oct 14, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I love this idea...
Dan, you have to try this.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
The Link
"All I want is food and creative love" - Rusted Root
by TheRiot Police on Oct 14, 2011 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions
The Pic
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
suddenly
I’ve decided I won’t be drinking at all tonight.
"The cheaper the hood, the gaudier the talk" - Philip Marlowe
by ForTheLoveOfBiitner on Oct 14, 2011 4:52 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd like to taste it.
Looks pretty good to me.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
Dude, people with Crohn's do the weirdest shit.
I’ve read about incense and candles that work (?!), all these odd sorts of diets, even some magnet stuff. I haven’t tried any of that stuff, but I did hear about this worm thing.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Wow, this thread really took an odd turn.
So, if I’m reading correctly, Tom Ricketts is going to give the Boston Red Sox pig worms for Theo Epstein?
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
and a staph infection
TBNL
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
Bet it's from the game threads.
That’s why I try to stay out of them. And sorry, hope you are feeling OK.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Thanks katie.
I’ve had it for a couple years now. When it flares up I just take my meds and that helps.
If Ricketts believes that Theo is the MAN, and he seems to
then hopefully he believes that Theo will do the same thing in Chicago that he did in Boston, make and keep the Cubs perennial contenders, through signings, trades and the draft. That the Cubs will be in the World Series, not as a fluke but as an expectation.
If he doesn’t believe the above, then I wouldn’t think he’d be going after a GM under contract, willing to pay that salary and include compensation.
So, if Theo is that important to the Cubs and their long term future, then no player should be untouchable. There’s no one in the minor leagues that is more important than Theo if the above is true.
Let's play cards.
You can lay all your cards down, face up. Nothing wrong with negotiating the best thing for the team – the Cubs have been bad at it for decades, so you just might get your wish.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Oct 14, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Of course
No where did I say that the Cubs shouldn’t negotiate. I said no player should be untouchable. If Theo is the savior of the franchise, then you don’t take any bargaining chips off the table.
Sticking with your card analogy, this isn’t penny ante, it’s no limit.
by ScottT on Oct 14, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
But.....
why pay more than needed.
Theo with Brett Jackson will have a better system than Theo without BJax. It won’t be that much.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
One reasonable explanation for giving them Jackson would maybe be...
that Ricketts has decided to spend more $ on player development/drafts the you trust Epstein’s ability to draft better talent than what we’ve gotten in the past so that Jackson can be replaced by another player relatively soon.
Especially if they really think Jackson is the deal maker to guarantee the Red Sox allow him to come here.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Hope it's not Brett
Brett Jackson is the first player, seemingly, to come through the system with actual plate discipline in the history of the organization.
I say let them have Colvin or Vitters – guys who just don’t get the whole “hey, I can take a pitch” thing. We’ve had enough of that.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Oct 14, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Awesome user name, KO
I’ve been debating changing mine to Buffalo Billious or KO Bossy or Curly Q. Link.
That's a good point.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
by katie casey on Oct 14, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
It's not that Jackson isn't acceptable
But that there’s no reason to go that far.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly how do you know this?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Because Sox ownership
never gave the slightest hint that they wanted to keep Epstein there anyway. And with the way this has played out in the media, with every little whisper getting blown completely out of proportion, we would’ve known it.
Plus, Epstein wants to leave.
Generally, given those 2 facts about the situation, it seems pretty clear that giving up BJax would be overpaying.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
What exactly were they supposed to do?
“Because Sox ownership never gave the slightest hint that they wanted to keep Epstein there anyway.”
I mean, he’s still under contract. Terry Francona was gone what? Two days after the season ended? The fact that he still has an office there is a “hint” they wanted to keep him. The fact that they are wanting pretty good talent in return seems to be a hint as well. If they had no interest in keeping him, they would have let him go for nothing.
You seem to be operating under the assumption that every team exists to help the Cubs
by Nunyabidness on Oct 14, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Also...
And with the way this has played out in the media, with every little whisper getting blown completely out of proportion, we would’ve known it.
How exactly do “whispers getting completely blown out of proportion” = “facts”?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe you need to re-read
you are equating two things which aren’t equitable.
1. Boston doesn’t appear to be making huge efforts to keep Epstein long term.
2. Epstein wants to leave.
Those are the facts. The media thing is simply evidence for the fact.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
this.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
#2 First: Would Epstein have agreed to a deal with the Cubs
if he didn’t want to leave?
#1. Again, I’m only going on what I have read, because I don’t have inside information. All evidence points to the contrary.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
It's quite possible
If he didn’t think he was getting an extension from Boston, then it behooves him to find a longer-term deal elsewhere, either as backup, or as leverage in negotiations.
Those still aren't facts dude.
#2: When you’re offered a title bump and more money, you’re going to feel the pull to leave, it doesn’t mean Theo was running around screaming “OHMYGODGETMETHEHELLOUTOFHERE!” There have been plenty of times when a coach or manager has had one foot out the door and changed his mind. Maybe the recent demands are a sign that Theo has asked the Redsox to help him back out.
#1: You’re right, you don’t have any inside information and the “evidence” is anything but.
by Nunyabidness on Oct 14, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Holy shit if those are facts,
I’m Barbara Walters.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Exactly
The whole Epstein availability thing could even now just be a contract dispute — Epstein wants leverage, Henry wants leverage. We don’t know what’s actually a case of Epstein not wanting to work for the Sox, or is in anyone’s head.
I don't buy it.
If this is a contract negotiation between Epstein and the Red Sox, then it is the most vain, monumental contract struggle in the history of sports. And that’s a hell of a statement.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
still don't buy it
He wouldn’t have accepted the Cubs offer. He would of asked to think about it for a few days, then taken the offer back and shopped it.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm sure "accepted" has to be taken more vaguely here
I mean, everyone involved knew that there was going to be this second negotiation that took place afterwards before the deal really became final. And Beane had a change of heart in similar circumstances to this.
Did we actually EVER hear he accepted it?
We’ve been going off reports the whole time. Maybe they were wrong.
by Nunyabidness on Oct 14, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think you pay enough attention to sports
There have been plenty of situations where a coach or manager has been courted by another team, only to stick with his original team, with a pay bump.
In college football, Houston Nutt has made a career of doing just that.
by Nunyabidness on Oct 14, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
yes, with 1 year left on his contract
Typically the time team’s start to talk extension with key personnel.
How’re those talks progressing? They’re not.
I’m thinking they would’ve let him go for very little—again, this is a vertical move for Epstein…direct report to ownership-which the Sox cannot offer him.
They are simply standing there with a fake explosive holding him hostage for the best they can get. Time to call the bluff.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
And the Sox might not be bluffing...
How’re those talks progressing? They’re not.
Right, so Epstein, otherwise with little leverage, asks permission to talk to the Cubs. Sox OK it, knowing later on they can keep Epstein around just by playing hardball on the compensation package. If hardball works, they’re happy with their load, else, Epstein and the Sox keep working on a compromise, and Epstein now has numbers he can take back to his management.
Agreed.
Nor is there any precedent.
We can (or rather, Red Sox fans can) look at Kevin Youkalis now and say, “See, Boston was willing to give up an All-Star for Billy Beane”, but the truth is that Youk was a guy who had barely sniffed AA at that time. There was still a big “if” as to whether he would contribute eventually. We can draw much closer to assuming that Jax will contribute in some manner. That might make Szczur a more apt consideration.
Then again, The Cub is offering Theo a promotion. It is good form (as John Henry has acknowledged) to let a guy go if he’s geting promotion. Maybe MLB needs to say “no” to any request for compensation.
"The cheaper the hood, the gaudier the talk" - Philip Marlowe
by ForTheLoveOfBiitner on Oct 14, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
As noted, there's already precedent against this
The Cubs gave MacPhail a similar promotion, and gave Minnesota (lesser) compensation. MLB won’t say “no” to a request for compensation.
Good point that I forgot. Thanks for the reminder.
So, MLB can instead say no to outrageous compensation.
I doubt that Bud wants to start seeing teams “trading” their front office staff on a regular basis.
"The cheaper the hood, the gaudier the talk" - Philip Marlowe
by ForTheLoveOfBiitner on Oct 14, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
This seems like shaky ground...
So, it’s ok to have a consensual trade for front-office folks when it’s just bit players, but not when it’s someone important involved? Where’s the line, and why? If the parties involved are all in favor of a given deal, why should Bud stop it?
I don't have an answer.
For me it’s less about how important the players or executive are and just the principle. Trading exec seems weird, which is maybe just because it’s somewhat new territory.
And to clarify: I like Bud involved in as little as possible, but I could see him getting test that teams will start to get more animous towards each other. The risk to his owner unity plan against the players might give him motivation to do something to his benefit.
"The cheaper the hood, the gaudier the talk" - Philip Marlowe
by ForTheLoveOfBiitner on Oct 14, 2011 5:01 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I would hope that these negotiations, whatever the result, don't create animosity
Not every trade negotiation (for players or otherwise) needs to result in a trade — sometimes teams just can’t agree. If this one does fall through, and then creates animosity, then something is seriously wrong with ownership on at least one of these two teams.
How bout this?
Give them Brett Jackson, but also require they take on Soriano?
Clever girl.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Is that a Jurassic Park reference?
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
From Bruce Levine Twitter
ESPNChiCubs Bruce Levine
Source;Red Sox looking for the next Kevin Youkilis in Cub minor leagues as compensation. This may take a bit more time.
Do you know who I am? I'm Mike Martz !!!! I made my bones and WON a Super Bowl when you were going out with cheerleaders.....
- Mike Martz to the his critics and explaining his playcalling
Well, what about Vitters?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
What if the Cubs and the Sox
go halfsies on the shipping cost?
Would you believe Bobby Hill?
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Missed it by that much...
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 14, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
At some point Ricketts has to say
“You know what? Nevermind. You keep the guy who doesn’t really want to be there, I’m gonna go down the road and talk to the Rays about Andrew Friedman”
by Nunyabidness on Oct 14, 2011 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or ...
“I think that Byrnes character got a bum deal in Arizona.”
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Didn't he get canned because he didn't want to fire AJ Hinch midseason?
by ubercubsfan on Oct 14, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Wasn't the only reason
but it was part of it.
Yeah. We can just let Josh Byrnes run the club as an interim GM for a year and then hire Epstein next season for nothing.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 14, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Only if you're prepared for Byrnes to take the job full-time
Which to me, isn’t the end of the world, but you can’t assume Epstein is going to be available next year.
You could make Epstein team president now
without any GM responsibilities like Andy MacPhail did. That’s a promotion. Then after a year, everyone gets demoted.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 14, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Is it a hard rule that teams just have to let people go if it's a "promotion"?
I doubt it. And if I’m right, then the Sox are going to see through that.
Pats traded a 1st round pick for Bill Belichick
Gave up a damn lot to get him. Just like what will happen in this case.
My Twitter @totheights
So are the Cubs. But anyways...
does this mean it’s going to be a AA/A+ player that I believe Youk was when he was offered?
by ubercubsfan on Oct 14, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Looking for something that isn't there
But Zeke DeVoss may be a good imitation.
Let’s get this done!
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
DeVoss can't be traded
Signed less than a year ago.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 14, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, the closest thing to that is Jackson
And I’m not giving him up for Theo or anyone considered management.
He is the one prospect that I think that could be a big piece of the future, contrary to others belief.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
by Unique on Oct 14, 2011 11:22 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
What if part of the future he's a big piece of...
is as the piece that played the pivotal role in bringing the GM here that finally puts this organization on track to being run effectively and successfully for decades to come?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Given Ricketts tack in the GM search
it seems positive we are headed in the right direction anyway. It’s not as if Epstein is the only capable guy out there.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 14, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
I just don't find it
…appropriate to trade significant prospects for management, especially when the particular GM wants to come here on his own terms. He is under contract, but that is something that should be handled on a monetary basis.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
by Unique on Oct 14, 2011 11:32 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
So just explain this to the Red Sox and we can all drop this discussion.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
I think thats what the Cubs stood firm with yesterday.
.. but it didn’t turnout well.
Still think it’ll workout.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
by Unique on Oct 14, 2011 11:40 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
No chance the Red Sox owners just accept money.
They can’t do that after firing the most beloved manager in Red Sox history, then letting the best GM in the history of the club leave for just money.
The will lose the fans, because of all that and the collapse.
My Twitter @totheights
Red Sox fans' view toward ownership
is not our problem. If your ownership insists that one of our top prospects is the only fair compensation, then we move onto to door #2. What’s so difficult to understand?
Also ESPN 1000 sports radio update
Mentioned that Ricketts has given a list of players to his baseball men that are available for compensation….Did not mention who was on the list though…..Ricketts still prefers to give cash over players….
Do you know who I am? I'm Mike Martz !!!! I made my bones and WON a Super Bowl when you were going out with cheerleaders.....
- Mike Martz to the his critics and explaining his playcalling
by CloudyFuture on Oct 14, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
I know a guy like Youkilis
Mike Quade. They have the same hair stylist. Just glue a goatee on him.
I’m all about the fake facial hair today. This is how we will get this done. They’ll never know what hit them.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Oct 14, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
It's going to be hilarious when this is all a smokescreen
and on Tuesday they have a press conference announcing someone else as GM.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Oct 14, 2011 11:36 AM CDT reply actions
Giggity...
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Just threw up in my mouth
On second thought, no, lets just get Theo.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Oct 14, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
To quote Captain Picard
NO!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Billy Beane
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Steve Phillips,
GM of Creep.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I'm shocked that he hasn't sent d*** pics to anyone
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Oct 14, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
::whistles innocently::
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice piece, AL
I had Hendry in the bottom third of GM’s for the last three years and posted that here numerous times.
You disagreed always, but I am glad you finally saw the light!
Theo/Hendry is the Auto equivilent of moving from a Dodge Dart to a Ferrari.
Wrong model
Hendry is a 1982 Buick Regal.
Once a reasonable American car, perhaps too big and guzzles way too much gas. Hasn’t run well for years, but despite this fact, his owner decided to take him out on a real race track for the past decade when he should have kept him strictly on normal city/highway driving. Had a new transmission installed while he was signing Ted Lilly.
When he hits Craigslist, he’ll be lucky to bring 400 bucks.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Oct 14, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll trade it for my old wheelbarrow...
And a slightly used sombrero.
by Flatley on Oct 14, 2011 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
Have any fellow STH
received invoices yet??
Were supposed to be out today.
Probably they are waiting for the Epstein deal to get sealed…
I have not seen anything yet
This would be about the right time – send the invoices out one month before the 10% is due.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, today was supposed to be the day.
I’ll bet they come out close to 5 pm, so the office will be closed when the angry phone calls and emails start coming.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Anger over what?
A. Ticket prices
B. Sending the Red Sox anything beyond Cubs mouse pads for Theo Epstein.
C. Holding the Cubs responsible for Comed electric prices because the Citizens Utility Board = CUB.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
He said it best
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2011 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions
The Ladies room in the upper deck
is in serious need of updating. There are wet rolls of paper towels laying all around the sink. It’s gross. Forget this GM business and get new hand dryers.
Dear Great Pumpkin, I am looking forward to your arrival on Halloween Night. I hope you will bring me lots of presents.
Those wet rolls are a monument to the Cubs 2008 season
Everything was going OK until that last step.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey guys
Y’all take good care of our GM now, you hear? Don’t let him make big FA signings and he could be the best thing that ever happened to Chicago, but if you let him make those big deals well…
Julio Lugo
John Lackey
Carl Crawford
Edgar Renteria
See what I mean?
Good luck Cubs fans. Hope you guys do well with him.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
Thanks, you guys did pretty well with him.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Easy to list mistakes
But Theo brought you All-Stars when you need them in Adrian Gonzalez, Victor Martinez, Curt Schilling, Josh Beckett… Added quality players like Damon and Lowell. Drafted and developed Pedroia, Papelbon, Hanley Ramirez…
Only 2 rings and 6 playoff shots in 10 years in the same division as the Yankees. How sad for you.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Oct 14, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Draft and Developing
That is Theo’s strong suit. You will want him to focus on that during his time in Chicago. He is a hell of a GM when it comes to that.
My Twitter @totheights
Theo is incredible at Drafting and Developing
and he can be shrewd in trades and under the radar FA signings. But his big signings, especially in recent years, have flopped.
Working with Soriano’s contract blocking most big deals should keep him working on smaller stuff, which is what he’s good at.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 14, 2011 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
i'm hoping that dealing with a payroll that's ~$40mill lower and not having to be an arms race with the yankees every offseason
will deter him from making signings like that. i think crawford will rebound, though
THEOOOOOOOOO
by jesus christos on Oct 14, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Adrian Gonzalez seems to have done OK.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
I see your John Lackey and raise you a Milton Bradley
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not saying Hendry didn't make mistakes
I’m just warning you that Theo isn’t the mad scientist the media makes him out to be.
I'm a 7 WAR player in bed.
DFA Rev Halofan, The New York Yankees, The Tampa Bay Blue Seats, Carl Crawford, John Lackey, Darnell McDonald, Curt Young, Dave Magadan, Tim Bogar, Buck Showalter, Dan Johnson, Hawk Harrelson, Jonah Keri, Murray Chass, Mark Sanchez, Micheal Vick, Jared Allen, Jerry Jones, Al Davis, Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, Trent Dilfer, Heath Evans, Cris Carter, Vuvuzelas, The Chicken Dance, Lady Gaga, Justin Bieber, Stephanie Meyer, and the entire fucking city of Philadelphia.
by TheLoneDavid on Oct 14, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
It's a part of that job
Mistakes come with the territory.
What Cubs fans are excited about is the expected change in organizational philosophy.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2011 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Grabow is gone, unless Bush quietly re-upped him.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
We'd have heard about that.
I’m sure he’ll be gone.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
He may do better when he doesn't have to 1-up the Evil Empire every year
The other teams in the NL Central will top out at $110M-$120M payroll. Epstein could work on player development and still have the resources to sign a FA when he thinks it is right.
pretty much.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
Heyman might be on the Ryno train
@SI_JonHeyman
Jon Heyman
Ryne sandberg deserves big league managing chance. Not too many hall of famers are willing to beat the bushes like him
You know just once I'd like to see a tweet that says
“Ryne sandberg deserves big league managing chance. By all accounts he’s a very clever manager.”
by Nunyabidness on Oct 14, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I know what you mean.
But I’d guess that most of the reporters/experts who tweet have never seen him manage.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Most people watching ten minor league games
have no idea if the MGR would be good at it in the bigs. I include myself in this category.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
I would imagine they could talk to those who have.
I mean SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE must have watched Ryno manage more than 10 games and have an idea on what kind of manager he is.
Hell there are a bazillion guys who dedicate their lives to following minor leaguers and prospects. Sure, they’re usually watching the players but it’s a bit concerning that whenever someone is pushing Ryno it’s “he’s put in his time” not, “they guy knows how to manage like a pro”
by Nunyabidness on Oct 14, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Sawks stalling to keep TE
from getting to Zona to watch a game of Instructs. No more silly than other speculation.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
Translation
“The Red Sox are holding up the negotiations to prevent Epstein from going to Arizona to watch an instructional league game.” No more silly than other speculation.
They have his picture on the "do not fly" list at Logan Airport?
Otherwise, what keeps him from just going to Phoenix? Are they going to fire him?
Last game this morning
He’ll have to wait until February.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
When "Moneyball II:Theo Leaves Boston"
comes out in a year (I know, too soon),
who gets which roles?
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
Am I the only one
Who thinks Darth Vader is sitting at the negotiating table constantly saying, “I have altered our deal. Pray I do not alter it any further?”
IT'S HERE! IT'S HERE!
IPHONE 4S! NO MORE WORLD HUNGER! OMG I’M SO HAPPY
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Put Siri in the room with Ricketts and Lucchino
GETITDONESIRI!
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2011 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Just try pronouncing the name of the woman who wrote that article.
Tougher than “Szczur”, I’d say.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I wonder if the person typing her birth certficate
had a spazz attack and nobody caught it
I bet when she gets married, she hyphenates her last name
You know it!
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2011 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
We should set her up on a date with Jeff Samardzija.
Now THAT would be a hyphenated name for all-time.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Lulgjuraj-Samardzija
Stick that on your Little League uniform kid!
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Oct 14, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
"I'd like to buy a vowel.
The ceremony could be performed by Mike Smrek or Gary Hrivnak
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
The Lilly trade worked out!
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Only if we can send them DeWitt, too.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I would hope Brett Jackson is off the table...
…if only because he’s supposed to be our freakin’ center fielder next season. Now I almost wish he’d gotten a September call-up just so the Cubs could technically classify as him as a “major league player.”
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
John Henry heard the latest Sports radio show got unhappy and went to the station
thekapman David Kaplan
Red Sox owner John Henry listens to sports radio show, unhappy he shows up at the studios and goes on air! Link….
David Kaplan tweeted some excerpts:
John Henry: "I’d love to have Theo back. I’d loved to have Theo as r general manager for next 20 years. You can’t always get what you want
thekapman David Kaplan
“I really can’t go into it,”. "There’s a prohibition against announcements during postseason. Far as I know, he’s still involved with us
David Kaplan
We’ve been smeared. You guys have been smearing us, that we deliberately badmouthed Francona + leaked info to Boston Globe for story on clubhouse. "
thekapman David Kaplan
John Henry: “We did not fire Tito Francona. He said that the team needed a new voice. We chose after that to not pick up his option.”
thekapman David Kaplan
“I’d love to have Theo back. For me to comment further wouldn’t be fair to him or the Cubs. You don’t always get what u want.
Do you know who I am? I'm Mike Martz !!!! I made my bones and WON a Super Bowl when you were going out with cheerleaders.....
- Mike Martz to the his critics and explaining his playcalling
Might be BJax
@thekapman
David Kaplan
brett jackson pulled in usa world cup game, signs pointing he may be apart of theo compensation?!
Weird.
I mean, I hope he’s not hurt, and I hope he’s not the compensation, but I’m not sure what the other explanation would be…
You should know what's going to happen in the future.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Oct 14, 2011 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hey, venknat isn't a professional.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Oct 14, 2011 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Kaplan also said the Sox do not want Theo back and if
the two teams can’t reach an agreement Tom needs to tell them to keep him for one year and we’ll get him next year when he’s a FA and they will get nothing for him. The Cubs won’t be good next season any way so let Randy stay for one year.
There is a CSN reporter from Boston on the show and she said Theo is hated in Boston so they do not want him back next year. She thinks the Cubs have the upper hand in the situation.
If Theo is hated in Boston...
I gave their fans way too much credit for being intelligent baseball fans….
Part of it could be this isn't the first time they've been through this..
I forget the details, but there was a time when Epstein left his job for about three months one offseason. (He followed Pearl Jam on a tour of South America for part of what turned out to be a hiatus.) IIRC there was (and remains) a clash between Epstein and Lucchino. John Henry put them back together before the new season started that time.
Once can be excused, but if Epstein is ‘gone’, and comes back a second time? I think once he agreed in principle with the Cubs, there’s no going back now. Or if he did, the Red Sox front office will be about as comfortable as the Cubs clubhouse if both Zambrano and Quade come back.
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Oct 14, 2011 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd say I'd hope there was some other reason for that...
But then that would probably be injury, which I most certainly don’t hope for…
Who wants an injured player as compensation, anyway?
Maybe Jackson will be fine. Maybe we’ll hear about it Wednesday, or the day after the deal is finalized, whichever comes first.
.
.
.
.
deep gorilla…
by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Oct 14, 2011 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions
CARRIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Calm down. Brett Jackson tweaked his foot. Pulled because of injury. #Cubs
I'm Deep Goat
I've never been happy by something written by Muskat.
There’s a first for everything.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
who knew an injury could be so awesome
THEOOOOOOOOO
by jesus christos on Oct 14, 2011 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem with this, is Carrie could very well be flat out wrong.
by Nunyabidness on Oct 14, 2011 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Facepalm.
She wasn’t the only one to report this.
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Seriously??
Szczur + 2 and $$?? Thank goodness you aren’t in negotiations.
someone should show tom this tweet
Rival GM: “Cubs should just keep saying no (on compensation for Theo). What are the Red Sox going to do — bring Theo back? No way.”
http://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN/statuses/125020400701808640
THEOOOOOOOOO
by jesus christos on Oct 14, 2011 10:23 PM CDT reply actions
I find it funny
that the Boston media think the Red Sox hold all the cards.
The national media think the Cubs hold all the cards.
And the Chicago media think “OH NO! THE SKY IS FALLING! THEO’S NOT COMING AFTER ALL!”
by Josh Timmers on Oct 15, 2011 4:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I wonder if Bud Selig or MLB can step in here...
Because IMHO Boston is behaving unruly about this whole situation. If the Red Sox didn’t want Theo Epstein to leave, then why in the hell did they grant permission for the Cubs to talk with him? All they had to do was deny the Cubs permission and Ricketts could have moved on.
by jeffmills1972 on Oct 15, 2011 4:26 AM CDT up reply actions
If this deal falls through...
The prevailing wisdom from ESPN and the elite media will be that the Cubs blew this and it’s another example of how this franchise is “cursed.” The majority of fans outside of Boston and in the rest of the media will conclude that the Cubs got a crappy deal and the Red Sox look worse. I never thought I’d say this, but Larry Lucchino makes George Steinbrenner look like a saint.
by jeffmills1972 on Oct 15, 2011 4:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Who cares what the media thinks?
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 15, 2011 6:39 AM CDT up reply actions
ESPN
would pay big money to Boston so they keep Theo away from the Cubs. Then they will have more fuel to their "we-love-to-remind-people-everyday-that-the-Cubs-are-‘cursed’ " fire.
In my lifetime please!
If Randy Bush and Mike Quade come back as GM and manager, I'm not coming back to the Cubs until 2013 if at all.
by jeffmills1972 on Oct 15, 2011 4:29 AM CDT up reply actions
I am. I am now convinced that TR has a plan. Larry Lucchino being an asshole isn't going to stop my support of the Cubs
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 15, 2011 6:40 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
I don't have a problem
with them coming back if it means we get Theo in a year and won’t have ot give up a damn thing for him. The Cubs are not going to be competitive next year any way. I’m willing to wait. Stand your ground Tom!
See ya jeff.
but Theo
might hire Quade in Boston.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
and plug in
Wavin’ Wendell at 3rd base coach.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
Lucchino/Epstein feud
The latest on the Boston Red Sox soap opera is that this is very personal against Lucchino and Epstein. Lucchino might make the Cubs and Red Sox wait until after the World Series out of spite. I don’t know about you, but I certainly don’t want Randy Bush being interim GM for 2012. I don’t care if the Cubs or contenders or not because that means Quade comes back another year. Unacceptable. If the Cubs can’t get Epstein, then move on to Plan B. But for goodness sake, let’s hire a new GM and a new manager. My fear is that the Red Sox will hire Sandberg as manager just to shove it in the face of the Cubs.
Would YOU work for the Red Sox right now? If you thought you could get hired elsewhere?
I’ll bet you $100 with the proceeds going to Cubs Care that Sandberg isn’t going to the Red Sox.
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Oct 15, 2011 6:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Come sign with us,
Mr (coach)/(executive). We will happily let you move along to greener pastures, after we dump Citgo oil all over said pasture and demand obscene compensation. I mean, we’ll be fair to you always.
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
by timh815 on Oct 15, 2011 7:29 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
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