Yu Darvish
I'm about to post a 2 year plan for the Cubs but I have been thinking on Yu Darvish. Before I make that post I would like to generate some thoughts on Darvish. Anyone not familiar with Darvish, he is widely considered the best pitcher not in the U.S.A. From what I'm reading he may be posted by Nippon this off season. Posting means that his controling team may offer him to the highest american bidder. Many Japenesse players have went through this porocess including but not limited to Ichiro, Hideo Nomo, and, Dice-K. Dice-k, I believe, holds the highest posting at 50 million. This posting amount is not an actuall contract offer but just the right to negotiate with said player. I think all told Matsuzakas total amount to aquire him by the Red Sox was roughly 100 million.
Let's start with the book on Yu Darvish. Darvish has been an elite propsect since junior high. He was his high school's top pitcher by 15. Without getting to much into his H.S. years by the time he was done he was considered among the top ametuer players for the 2004 draft. His professional career has been outstanding. By the tender age of 20 he was his profesional teams best pitcher. At this point let's take a look at what he has to offer repertiore wise.
Darvish does resemble Matsuzaka in some ways especially considering his wide variety of pitches he throws. A string bean when he began his career as a 18 year old, Darvish, has since added weight to his 6'4 frame now weighing a stout but athletic 220 pounds. Throwing from a high three quarters arm slot with a drop and drive motion that I like. To start his four seam FB sits 91-94 and can touch 97. His "slurve" sits 77-80 with hard bite and break. I've heard and I'm saying I have not seen this personally, but 1 guy I talked to says it would rival the pre TJS Kerry Wood slurve circa 1998.
Note: Woods slurve, especially, the Astros game when he 1 hit 20 k, is probably the the most devastating pitch I have ever seen from any pitcher. Flat out unhittable. I don't think that Darvish has this pitch but I'm just putting it out there. At the least the pitch is a swing and miss pitch that is considered plus (widely thought) to plus-plus (have heard this also).
Darvish also throws a good sinker and cutter. He aslo offers a solid CB, splitter and CU. I have not read anything on his command/control but his numbers in Japan pro ball indicate that he has solid to plus control. He spots his pitches well, does not walk many, and has an excelent K/BB rate. Darvishs numbers in Japan are SICK.
My personal thought: My only chance to see Darvish pitch was in the 2009 WBC.I do not claim to be a scout but this was what I came away with. I had the feeling that he was a good maybe really good pitcher. His stuff was solid to good and he mixed his pitches well but I did not see that elite type stuff nor the command that was hyped. Now mind you this was only 3 games and on a really big stage for the 1st time in his career. I liked him though but his movement on his FB was just slightly better then ML average. Like I said above this was an extremely small smaple size but this is my only chance to see him pitch live against good competition.
Analysis: Now many scouts consider Darvish an elite prospect and feel his stuff is much better then what I have noted. The scouts are probably closer to reality then my small take but I still feel he may be at least slightly overhyped. Mind you this is a guy I own in many fantasy leagues where owning this type of IFA is legal. I do like Darvish very much and he will just be entering his prime once (IF) he enters ML baseball this year. 1 major thing to be noted the Japnesses ball is slightly smaller then the ML baseball. While this will not add velocity imho it does allow for more break/bite/movement on pitches.
The thing is Junichi Tazawa was given a 3.3 million dollar ML contract by the Red Sox to sign after Japanesse college (forgoing the Japanesse draft). Now the intial reports out of Japan on his SL was that it was above average. After seeing 4 minor league games and 2 Ml games his SL, was imho, just ML average at it's best.
Discusion: 1st off Darvish is going to be posted via bidding. The guy is so hyped I could see some team, namely the Yankees or Red Sox offering something in the neigborhood of 70-80 million ( I would not rule out a 100 million dollar offer by the pitching starved and cash flush Yankees). That is just for the rights to negotiate with Darvish. I would imagine he would want more then the 5 year 60 million Matsuzaka got. I'm thinking 150-170 million total to aquire Darvish. I admit the Cubs have not been linked to him and that ownships conservative style probably means this is not plausible, but.................................................. If we went after Fielder we would need some SP.
So anyone interested and be mindfull that I am more conservative of players that I consider "unknown" such as Darvish.
Is this something we should persue?
Is the price worth the potential?
How much should we be willing to pay?
How good do you think Darvish can be? (anything you can add to my post)
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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I don't like the extremely small sample size of Japanese pitchers to consider overpaying for one.
I’d like to see a large sample transition to MLB before we can see extrapolate and find some patterns developing. The Japanese style of play, pitching, and practice is so completely different than MLB’s I cannot justify crippling this team’s future anymore than it already is for one totally unproven guy.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Agree
Considering they only play 2-3 games per week you make an excellent point. i should have also made this point in nthe above article.
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Oh, good summary, too.
I recommended it.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
It seems unfair to discredit Darvish
by virtue of a small handful of predecessors …
Still, I can’t help but agree.
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Exactly how I feel
While there are your Ichiro’s and Hideki’s out there, there are quite a few more Fukudome’s and Kaz’s that turned out to be not nearly what the MLB thought they were worth.
Darvish
has a few advantages over most Japanese pitchers. One, he’s younger. Two, he’s 6’5" and thus likely more durable. It also means he throws on a nice downward plane. Finally, his parents met going to college in Florida. His parents would probably be able to prepare him for life in America better than other Japanese pitchers.
On the other hand, I don’t like the amount of money that it would likely take to sign him. But I’d certainly put in a bid.
RE;
From what I saw in 2009 he does not throw on a definitive downward plane. Yes his parents met in FLA but 1 of his parnets is Iranian which is part of why he has taken so long to be posted.
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I don't buy the Iranian thing
A lot of crap gets written in the Japanese press. Very little of it is true. Hammed Haddadi is playing in the NBA without incident.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 6, 2011 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions
I think the posting fee will not go above $50 m
Because of how Matsusaka petered out after his first two years. I just have the sense that teams will not feel comfortable exceeding that round figure. But it’s just a guess.
I would say no to Darvish, possibly yes to Iwakama (?) the lefty who is a free agent.
...formerly known as zambranofan
Disagree
The posting fee will surely be more then Dice-K’s and Yu is considered an elite player.
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not sure
it’s a different economy from when Dice-K got posted, and Dice-k was a significant disappointment by every standard. It’s been long enough since a Japanese player met expectations here that teams will be wary to pay huge posting fees, Yu’s height notwithstanding.
DEJESUS!!!
It should be a smaller opening posting fee
Teams will be hesitant to pay after the way Dice-K, Nishioka, and Fukudome have turned out. Even if Yu is the best player to get posted in a long time, this is seen as a much larger risk than it used to be.
It's not worth the risk for the Cubs.
Of the 72 million payroll the Cubs have guaranteed for next year, over half of it is to two players, Soriano and Zambrano. That is a lot of dead salary in just two players. I don’t think the Cubs can run the risk of adding more to that for a player with no MLB experience. Especially considering the Japanese market hasn’t been all that great for awhile now. I understand Darvish may be different, but for 170 million? As much as I think starting pitching should be the Cubs top concern, If they are going to throw that kind of coin around I’d rather they throw it at more of a known entity, like Fielder or CC (if Sabathia doesn’t re-sign with the Yankees).
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Oct 5, 2011 10:16 PM CDT reply actions
For the best info on Darvish
I’d look to Patrick Newman over at npbtracker.com. He’s scouted Darvish over the past few years and, if I recall correctly, he’s of the mind that Darvish can be a pretty good pitcher in MLB, although whether he can be an ace (the type of frontline starter his posting fee should equal) is really open to speculation.
I watched a few games on TV in Japan and his stuff looked pretty good, although I’m not a scout by any means. Like most Japanese pitchers, he kind of pitches backwards with a lot of breaking stuff and while he’s reported to be able to touch 97, I think it’s a rare occasion if he goes over 93-94 (although that may have to do with simply not needing to ever go that high against the competition). I think he may have hit 97 in the world baseball classic a few years ago, though, so he does have it.
His numbers place him pretty far apart from the other pitchers in the NPB and it really seems like the league isn’t much of a challenge for him anymore. That need for a new challenge may push him to lobby for posting, but at the same time, according to one of my friends in Japan, Darvish has said he doesn’t want to come to MLB at all—he may even be considered a kind of anti-matsuzaka in that sense, someone who won’t defect. Obviously, no one but him knows.
I will say that you have to be careful about the age. While he’s only 24, the mileage put on a Japanese arm is pretty high by the time they’ve gone through the grueling tournament schedules in middle school/high school and up into the majors. I went to the Spring Koshien this past year and saw a few pitchers who will likely be NPB draft prospects. To a man, they all threw at least between 110-120 pitches per start—with a few going way way highter—and, if they’re good and move their teams through the tourney, they’re guaranteed to accrue astronomic pitch counts on consecutive days. (and that’s only the actual final tournament, excluding the regionals and the notoriously lengthy side sessions). Think back to Daisuke Matsuzaka’s super human (even by Japanese standards) effort when he pitched in the Koshien. I say all of that to say that if the Cubs or any other MLB pitcher does pursue him, they have to think about the effects of wear and tear toward the end of the contract when deciding on the type of money to give him.
I agree with you on the pitcher abuse
It’s a real concern.
As I said earlier, there have been a lot of talk in the Japanese press about why Darvish doesn’t want to come to America. I believe very little of it. There’s a lot of pressure on him to stay in Japan. I think the only reason he wants to stay in Japan is that a lot of people he cares about want him to stay in Japan because they want him around. But eventually, the lure of testing yourself on the highest stage is too strong for a talent like his.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 6, 2011 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions
RE:
josh you very much are off on Darvish and his heratige. I have tried to find the interview since you 1st posted your speculation. I saw in the interview 2008 but could not find it. Basically being Iranian very much plays into weather or not he will play ML baseball. He also loves playing in Japan. Just saying I think you down play it a little more then what reality is. i will admit you probably are closer to reality then what the Japan press has been reported.
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Could you clarify what you mean...
…by “being Iranian very much plays into whether or not he will play ML baseball”? Is it a visa issue? (Is he a dual citizen?) Or something else?
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
RE
boy I really wish I could find that interview but his basic attitude was that he was not real interested in playing in America and I got the feeling that being Iranian and dislike for america played a part.
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If you ever find it...
…please post. I’d actually find it a bit surprising for an Iranian of his age to have that intense a dislike of America.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
This was from several years ago:
Hints at the Iranian thing, but seems to be less of a “hate” and more an interest in bringing baseball to Iran rather than feeding the Red Sox another arm.
"We push bunt, we squeeze bunt, we hit and run, we steal home!" - Larry Cox (I think...) on the 1989 NL East Champion Chicago Cubs
Wow, that's a hell of an article...
…especially the bit about him posing nude for a women’s magazine. But, seriously, I read it the same way: I don’t think he has a problem with America so much as he may feel conflicted about wanting to either stay in Japan or bring baseball to Iran. His father seems like a very strong influence.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
His parents met in college in Florida.
So it seems doubtful to me that he “hates” America.
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Not so fast...
Anwar al-Awlaki, the Al Qaeda leader just killed, was born in Las Cruces, New Mexico to Yemeni parents, and went to Colorado State as an undergrad, San Diego State fro his MBA, and George Washington University for a Phd he didn’t finish. Meeting in college in Florida doesn’t obviate anything.
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I suppose.
Still, I don’t think Yu Darvish has any “problem” with America, simply because he’s part-Iranian.
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The lure of testing yourself
And the possibility of making a whole lot more money.
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RE:
I should have touched on the innings thing above. Yes he’s posted very high innings at a very young age but as i pointed above NPB play only 2 games per week. So while he has posted a high inning/pitch counts he does get mor rest then your ML pitcher would get.
Also I just want to say he did hit 100 mph in the WBC.
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Point taken
I think you’re right in pointing out that NPB starters throw fewer games in a season, but I would also just say that as I indicated above, Japanese starters tend to throw ALOT outside of their starts. Remember that one of Daisuke Matsuzaka’s complaints when he came to the Red Sox was that he didn’t throw enough and that he felt as if he wasn’t ready to pitch, so that speaks to how much work they put on their arms.
It may have changed somewhat, but I remember Robert Whiting discussing how Japanese pitchers generally threw at least 200 full-strength warm up pitches before games and around the same number after games (what was considered post-game corrective tutelage by the pitching coach). That doesn’t take into account the almost daily side sessions.
Wear and tear is also a thing you can’t take away once it’s been put on, no matter how much care and rest is given later. I think I’ve read around here that Kerry Wood’s arm already had an unusual amount of work in high school before he was drafted, which may have compounded with his mechanics over time to cause the troubles later.
Ultimately, each pitcher is unique, and you could very well be right that Darvish hasn’t been taxed as much because of the NPB season setup, but I just think MLB teams really need to do their work when it comes to the type of contract they’ll give him, maybe add some kind of performance or durability incentive. Just a thought.
point taken also
Good point about the off game throwing programs. Not sure how much darvish throws outside games though. would be something to look into.
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Darvish is certainly interesting
I think I’d rather see us acquire someone with more of a track record, like CJ Wilson or Edwin Jackson. Jackson would almost certainly cost less.
by Mulhollandmania on Oct 6, 2011 12:30 AM CDT reply actions
Edwin Jackson
I’ve watched this guy very closely. I saw him pitch 2 times in person 2 Comerica and a dozen times on TV in 2010 and just not impressed.
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Jackson is very hot and cold.
Doesn’t seem to be much of an in between.
This is why
Kids have it so easy these days. When I was in Junior High, and High School, I could have trolled places like BCB for all of my essays. Heck, post a thesis, force yourself to defend it, incorporate the arguments, and DONE.
"Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make something up"
Thanks for reminding me of Wood's pre-TJS slurve.
It seemed to break the laws of physics. It essentially may have, considering the havoc it wreaked on his arm – human beings should not be able to make a ball do that. For one brief moment, we had a pitcher who could almost literally do the impossible.
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RE:
Wood was so sick that rookie year. 12.6 k/9 for a Sp is discusting. For guys like Marmol, Kenley Jansen, and other releivers can post numbers that thigh cuz they can just let it all go for an inning. But a SP who has the whole game to think about that number is amazing. 6.3 h/9 is pretty stout also.
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If you just have 50Mill laying around collecting dust
then yes you go for him. I don’t think the cubs have that money. Too many projects in the organization.
My gut reaction is to fold.
Too rich for my blood — and too high a risk of injury or just that Darvish won’t be the wunderkind he’s reputed to be. That said, his is a very interesting story that I intend on following.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
yeah, too much
Let’s say total cost is on the low end of what you say…$150 mil. Let’s further assume that is for a 6 year deal for Darvish. That is $25 mil. per year for a guy who’s making a big cultural and professional jump. For that price you could get 2 or 3 solid contributors including other SP’s or Fielder/Pujols.
Not worth it.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 6, 2011 10:49 AM CDT reply actions
But shouldn't the point simply be:
Set a budget on what you think is a solid gamble; allocate that money between posting rights and salary for Yu; and put in a bid. No one says you have to go to $150M; if some other team does, then good (or bad) for that team and their fans. If not, maybe you’d get him at an average cost that is worth the gamble.
by Orval Overall on Oct 6, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
True. But the problem is in identifying the price
Because Darvish is such an unknown, it makes price transparency difficult.
As a solid starter for a couple years who washes out or ends up as a long man for a bit of the contract, he’s not worth even 40 million. As a high level ace or almost ace for 6 years, he is worth something approaching that $150 million or maybe a bit more, but it’s almost inconceivable he is worth $200 mil. Then there is the wide middle ground. How do you discount for the 1st probability?
Compare him to CJ Wilson. Wilson is expected to get something in the range of 6 yr. 100 mil. this winter. My guess is Darvish has to get, in total, something less than that. I’d think, 30-40 million on the posting and 6/60 on the contract. That provides some upside to the buyer but allows a team with deep pockets to risk the downside. It’s also likely that some team (Washington, NYY?) with deep pockets who wants to win is willing to take a greater risk and put more into it. But any team which buys the posting fee and pays him like an ace right out of the chute is almost certain to lose on the deal.
I just doubt whether a new GM coming in to the Cubs would want to risk that much of Rickett’s capital on an unknown commodity. I don’t think we get Darvish.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Oct 6, 2011 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
My final thoughts/take
Overall it was pretty much a long shot but thought it was worth a post. For the type of money it will take to land him it could be better allocated especially considering that it will take more then Darvish even if he lived up to the hype.
The only guy really considered anywhere near ace is CJ Wilson and I think both the Yankees and Red Sox are gonna be in a bidding war with each and as we all know numbers will get outta hand. If Darvish is posted the loser of that sweepstakes could throw some serious dough out to get Darvish and beat the Rangers and Blue Jays who both are considered the from runners.
I’ll touch more on this in my next post about the Cubs potential 2 year plan but I feel any money to be spent should be held for 2013.
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Is there a reason
people consider Sabathia a foregone conclusion to return to NY? He had said (nad maybe this was to drive the price up) that his family didn’t want to go there. He would cost a ton, but man, what a difference maker he would be to the rotation.
DEJESUS!!!
The assumption is
the Yankees are going to give him an extension before he even hits the market. They are hurting so badly for starting pitching that they can’t afford to lose their ace.
by Josh Timmers on Oct 8, 2011 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Yabbut......
…. I mentioned this in the thread about who Cub fans will “obsess” over this off-season and drew crickets. Harold Reynolds said this on MLB Network a week or two ago. he’s heard that Sabathia might leave. The Yankees’ core is doing nothing but getting older, much older. Off the top of my head, there’s Cano, Granderson and who else as far as proven position players who could still be expected to improve and/or maintain their current levels? Sabathia might just look around and say, well, it’s been fun, and it’s the Yankees and all, but this team has nowhere else to go but down for a while unless they kick a few real big names to the curb, which they won’t do. Plus, after him, who else do they have for pitching that they can seriously rely upon? If I’m him, I’d opt out.
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Come on.....
….. you really think Mark Teixeira and Nick Swisher haven’t peaked, or that Swisher or Gardner aren’t much more than interchangeable pieces? Would you want Teixeira and his contract here?
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Well, you have a point.
I wouldn’t call any of those guys “old”, though.
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Don't want
The posting fee, and the transition to MLB from playing in Japan has given me plenty of examples of guys flopping horribly over here. Way to risky as the Cubs try to rebuild from their era of bad contracts. Take that money and plunge it into the farm system and overseas scouting. Sprinkle with a few free agents as needed and we’ll have a winner on the North side.

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