How should we judge Z's performance in Venezuela?

Perhaps the biggest question mark going into 2012 appeared to pitch adequately in Venezuela last night (three runs in six innings). But considering the competition Z's facing, should he be doing better? Can somebody provide a little context?

7 months ago elgato 45 comments 0 recs |

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Context

I’m sure that velocity and movement are being carefully noted, but let’s keep in mind that it’s only the halfway point of Z’s extended off season.

Numbers may not lie, but they don’t tell the whole truth (and nothing but the truth), either. -- Doug Glanville

by leothelip on Nov 13, 2011 9:10 AM CST reply actions

Sure, I get that.

I guess I’m more interested in a) what the competition looks like generally in Venezuela and b) if things like small ballparks or climate could affect his numbers.

I mean, he’s facing Bryan LaHair and not Albert Pujols, so we know that the competition isn’t what he’d be facing next year for the Cubs. I guess I’m hoping someone (Josh?) who knows a lot about these matters can chime in.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Nov 13, 2011 9:14 AM CST up reply actions

I think I read somewhere...

…. that Venezuelan winter ball is roughly equivalent to Triple-A ball. So in a way, you could view this as a rehab assignment for Z.

I hope he pitches well enough to interest other teams in him.

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by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2011 9:58 AM CST up reply actions

Amen to that

by Mulhollandmania on Nov 13, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions

This ^^^

by DCCubsFan on Nov 13, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions

He should pitch effectively enough......

….. to interest another team, as there’s no way he should stay a Cub. Period. Let’s not have the passage of time lull us into a false sense of security with this human time bomb. He blows up no matter who’s in charge, and given Zambrano’s proven volatilty and immaturity, there’s no reason to think having Epstein, Hoyer and whoever the next manager is around is going to change that.

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by BeerCub on Nov 13, 2011 9:49 AM CST reply actions

No argument here.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Nov 13, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions

I agree, but...

Is it possible that competent management could turn Z around? If Maddux gets the job, could he salvage some of Z’s value so that he can be traded at the deadline?

I’ve always liked Z and have been disappointed in his antics. But, I’m still rooting for him to get over the hump.

by Hoostino on Nov 13, 2011 10:08 AM CST up reply actions

'Competent management'?

Z’s been like this through two well-regarded managers (Dusty and Lou) and one of the game’s best pitching coaches (Rothschild). None of them could handle him.

And does a front-office really have that much control of a pitcher who routinely blows up on the field, or in the clubhouse?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Nov 13, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions

Eerie, ain't it?

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by BeerCub on Nov 13, 2011 10:35 AM CST up reply actions

What, that we wrote pretty much the same thing?

I actually gave Z a lot of rope over the years. He’s reportedly not a bad person, and he wants to win badly. Also, while he didn’t win in the 2007-08 postseasons, he actually pitched reasonably well. The Cubs defense let him down in Game 2 of the Dodgers series, and the bullpen blew Game 1 against Arizona.

Z’s last outburst was by far the worst. Deserting his teammates after they’d given him so many chances? Wow.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Nov 13, 2011 10:45 AM CST up reply actions

Nitpick - the OFFENSE blew game 1 against AZ

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 13, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions

Mutually responsible.

Marmol didn’t exactly have his best night.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Nov 13, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions

Or his worst . . . .

In all seriousness, 1 run doesn’t get the job done.

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 13, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions

Agreed.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Nov 13, 2011 11:27 AM CST up reply actions

Tis it is eerie...

That you must think Dusty and Lou knew how to handle adversity.

by Hoostino on Nov 13, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions

Dusty and Piniella? Seriously?

Look at all the drama that has surrounded this organization with Dusty and Lou at the helm. Z wasn’t the only one with probs.

So, if you think Dusty and Lou handled adversity well…then, we see from different dimensions.

by Hoostino on Nov 13, 2011 1:29 PM CST up reply actions

Wow.

You’re just very, very wrong here. Lou is a borderline HOF manager. Your original adjective, competent, is something that Lou exuded. He didn’t get it done in Chicago, but he managed two teams to the playoffs and, somehow, had the dysfunctional 2009 team in first place until early August. To say Lou was not competent is really off base. You either don’t know what you’re talking about or you’re taking too much from Lou’s final season in Chicago.

Dusty Baker has managed three big league clubs to the postseason. I strongly dislike the man — his us-against-the-world strategy is really kind of disgusting — but I wouldn’t say he’s not competent.

Now, I know you tried to reframe the argument — competency versus handling adversity well. But BeerCub and I took issue with.your original statement. To, essentially, say Lou and Dusty are or were incompetent is just wrong.

And I notice you didn’t mention Larry Rothschild, who was Z’s pitching coach for nine years and was so incompetent that he was hired by the New York Yankees.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Nov 13, 2011 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

How well did they handle adversity?

Then, tell me I’m wrong 10 more times. Wow.

by Hoostino on Nov 13, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions

Ok, I'll jump in.

You’re wrong.

All three men elgato is referring to are very competent baseball men.

And Piniella in particular handled the adversity of 2009 just fine. Some think that was the best year he had as a Cub manager – keeping that group in contention as long as he did.

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Nov 13, 2011 5:12 PM CST up reply actions

I'm not alone, here.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Nov 13, 2011 6:09 PM CST up reply actions

You're wrong.

Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!

by shoemile on Nov 13, 2011 7:09 PM CST up reply actions

....

THEOOOOOOOOO (and Hoyer)

by jesus christos on Nov 13, 2011 7:38 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs

That's only 9 times!

by ubercubsfan on Nov 13, 2011 7:56 PM CST up reply actions

Math's not my strong suit...

but I count 17.

by Arbusto on Nov 14, 2011 8:02 AM CST up reply actions

Yeah, I realized this after I posted. Was hoping nobody would catch me on it.

Really wish there was an edit feature on sbnation as long as nobody had replied to the post.

by ubercubsfan on Nov 14, 2011 11:22 AM CST up reply actions

I will say this though, in that episode of Scrubs Dr. Cox did say wrong 11 times.

So the picture is WRONG! lol

Wrong wrong wrong wrong,
Wrong wrong wrong wrong,
You’re wrong,
You’re wrong,
You’re wrong!

by ubercubsfan on Nov 14, 2011 11:24 AM CST up reply actions

Dusty never was one for holding players in check

And Lou actually did OK with Z until Lou checked out in 2010. The fight with Barrett actually became a spur for the 2007 team.

I’m not saying Zambrano should come back, but with a competent manager he may be salvageable. But he probably doesn’t have enough left in his arm to still be a starter when the Cubs are getting good again.

by ClarkFan on Nov 13, 2011 4:30 PM CST up reply actions

Where do you get this adversity thing?

Only you have mentioned it vis a vis the managers. The rest of us have said the other managers were indeed competent. Just the same both Baker and Piniella over their careers have handled adversity just fine, otherwise they wouldn’t have lasted as long as they have. Zambrano, on the other hand, is the one with the problem dealing with adversity. Otherwise, none of us would be talking about it.

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by BeerCub on Nov 13, 2011 9:42 PM CST up reply actions

That's not the issue

Andy MacPhail (who called up Zambrano) and Jim Hendry (his two GMs), Don Baylor, Dusty Baker, Lou Piniella and Mike Quade (Zambrano’s major league managers, excluding the interim guys), were not incompetent, they just didn’t win championships here. Coming into the job, most of those managers carried a large amount of cache and credibility and hope not all that different from the present new group. None of the new group ever played major league ball, unlike several former managers, and often that’s what prompts volatile guys to listen.

The Cubs HAVE to be done hoping he changes. It’s the definition of insanity, doing the same thing hoping for a different result. If he pans out for another team, so be it. If I were a betting man, however, I’d wager he eventually has the same issues somewhere else, even in Miami with Guillen.

Help bring Boys of Spring The Movie to life!

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by BeerCub on Nov 13, 2011 10:32 AM CST up reply actions

Right.

How many more last chances can you give this man? Let someone else do it.

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by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions

He's thirty freaking one years old

He’s set in his ways, and I sincerely hope he never wears the blue pinstripes again.

by Mulhollandmania on Nov 13, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions

I agree.

I know he is supposed to have an in-person meeting with Theo soon. I’m sure he will smile and make nice — I have heard Z can be a very good, giving and generous person. The meeting will probably go well.

But there is apparently something within Big Z that makes him snap at inappropriate times. I thought this had been dealt with after his 2010 blowup — but apparently, it wasn’t.

Please, make this another team’s problem.

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by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions

Overall I agree with you.

I wouldn’t be entirely surprised to see him back. I wonder if Epstein believes he has more value for the Cubs that he will get in return. There are not a lot of options available on the market & Z (If he can keep his emotions in check) is a good pitcher.

You are right though. I’m not sure he can keep his emotions in check for an entire season. I do think he will maintain control early because he wants to prove the naysayers wrong. Proving everyone wrong is also important for future contract considerations. It may be enough to keep him sane for an entire season.

I don’t want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it.

by cub in louies nest on Nov 13, 2011 3:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

I have added a poll on the right sidebar of the front page on this topic.

Please vote.

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by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2011 12:42 PM CST reply actions

If he agrees to

a full time sports psychologist & a full time training regimen, I’d be the sucker who gave him 1 more chance.

The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney

by SouthWabashSoul on Nov 13, 2011 12:43 PM CST reply actions

My guess is that he's already had both of those.

And it hasn’t done much good.

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by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions

I'm not so sure about that

my understanding was that after the 2010 incident with D. Lee he went to anger management classes for 6 weeks and was proclaimed “cured.” I’ve never read anything which suggested any of that continued.

and in terms of fitness, I’m talking regular accountability, not just having a trainer at your disposal.

The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney

by SouthWabashSoul on Nov 13, 2011 2:45 PM CST up reply actions

Right.

But I’m still not sure that would be any use.

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by Al Yellon on Nov 13, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions

I judged Z

A long time ago and was proven correct. Some of you still owe me an apology

"It's all in the game, yo"

by Worf on Nov 13, 2011 2:53 PM CST reply actions

I was wrong....

by Dcr18 on Nov 13, 2011 3:42 PM CST up reply actions

Ha - that's pretty funny

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Nov 13, 2011 4:02 PM CST up reply actions

you should apologize for acting

like a self-righteous a@&.

The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney

by SouthWabashSoul on Nov 13, 2011 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

I'm sorry that wrinkly forehead makes you so cranky.

I’ll get off your lawn now.

by Arbusto on Nov 14, 2011 8:04 AM CST up reply actions

i think if the cubs can be rid of him and save 6 million .....

then they should trade him or buy him out .but if the cubs have to eat more than 12 million you might as well try to build value for the trade deadline .i want him gone as much as milton bradley , but it is a business .

by walterj on Nov 13, 2011 4:44 PM CST reply actions