Theo Epstein, Please Don't Be Jim Hendry
Theo Epstein had lunch with Carlos Zambrano on Monday at Goose Island in Wrigleyville. (Wish I'd known -- I'd have headed over there, just to watch the show.) Also in attendance were Big Z's agent, Barry Praver, and Cubs director of player personnel Oneri Fleita.
I'm sure Big Z was smiling and friendly and happy, as well as apologetic for the things he's done in the past. Bruce Levine has some details:
"We met today at his request," Epstein said. "It went well. He expressed a strong desire to be a Cub (again) and an even stronger desire to have a strong 2012 season. He's in great shape. He's working out twice a day, pitching down in Venezuela. I told him that we'd let him earn his right back to being a Cub.
"We said he'd have to work hard and that we aren't welcoming him back unconditionally. We said he'd have to earn his way back."
In the past, former GM Jim Hendry had always welcomed Zambrano back; of course, several of the incidents involving Z had occurred when there was a lot more than just one year left on his contract. The Cubs weren't likely to eat $30 or $40 million worth of contract.
But every time Big Z said it wouldn't happen again, it happened again. How many last chances can you give one person?
In this case, I suppose it isn't a "last chance" from Theo Epstein, since he is new to the Cubs and not familiar -- except from hearing about them from afar -- with all the details of what happened each time Zambrano melted down. There's a hint in Levine's article that he at least knows what occurred.
"Most of the details will stay confidential," Epstein said. "But there are steps he needs to take to earn his way back. If he does so, we will see him in spring training and welcome him back."
Epstein said that Zambrano seemed sincere and contrite in the meeting, but he's taking a wait-and-see approach.
"From what I understand, he's seemed that way before," Epstein said. "So this is a trust-but-verify situation."
Epstein stayed the course when asked if this decision precludes him from trying to trade Zambrano this offseason.
"Right now, we're going to give him the right to earn his way back as a Cub," Epstein said.
There are some read-between-the-lines things in that quote, so let's examine some of them.
"Seemed sincere". "Sincere and contrite." Sure, he did. Anyone wanting to please his bosses after blowups like the ones he's had would seem that way. Theo appears to understand this when he says, "From what I understand, he's seemed that way before." Zambrano isn't going to have the long rope he had under Hendry, who was responsible for signing Z in 1997 when he was farm director. There was a 14-year history between the two men that does not exist with Theo Epstein.
Clearly, Epstein isn't going to tell sportswriters that he's done with Zambrano -- that would kill any trade value that Z might have. It appears that there are specific things that Z must do before spring training. Whether those things are doable, and whether Z will do them, remains to be seen.
Bringing him back, however, in my opinion, would go against the idea that Epstein is going to begin to change the culture of this organization. For too long, veteran players -- not just Zambrano -- have basically been able to do as they please, regardless of what it does to the team. Eating $18 million worth of contract cannot be an easy thing to do. But retaining Zambrano after all of these incidents would send the same message that Jim Hendry gave out when he gave Z all those last chances: it doesn't matter what you do, we'll take you back.
There is no doubt in my mind that Carlos Zambrano is a fierce competitor who wants to win baseball games very, very much. He is also a tremendously talented athlete who has a very good chance of doing that every time he takes the field.
But in my opinion, the baggage is now too heavy. If Theo Epstein is serious about changing the baseball culture in this organization, he'll do whatever it takes to deal Carlos Zambrano, even if that means eating most (hopefully, not all) of the year remaining on his contract. Maybe Theo's carefully chosen words on Monday were meant to help increase any trade value Zambrano might have; if so, good for Theo.
But if Carlos Zambrano opens the 2012 season in a Cubs uniform, it'll be the same story we rehashed over and over and over under Jim Hendry: player blows up, player says he's sorry (for the fifth time)... and then player does the same thing again.
Theo Epstein, if you really want to change the clubhouse culture of the Cubs organization -- and that is something that's sorely needed -- please begin by trading Carlos Zambrano.
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Look, all Theo is doing is to avoid setting the car on fire before hanging a "For Sale" sign on it
by ClarkFan on Nov 15, 2011 8:38 AM CST reply actions 9 recs
Compare and contrast between Theo's comments yesterday, and Jim's comments after the WhiteSox blowup.
One GM understands the value of preserving an asset. The other vented and devalued the asset as much as he potentially could. I know what course of action I prefer.
“This is a trust-but-verify situation”
vs.
“We’ll play with 24 before we bring that guy back. Anger management won’t work.”
When I criticized Hendry for how he dealt with Z in 2010, the standard line around here was that Hendry couldn’t have devalued Z, because Z had no value whatsoever to begin with.
We now have a front office that understands that every player has value, and it’s the President/GM’s job to maximize that value, whether that means trading, cutting, or even keeping the troubled asset.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Nov 15, 2011 8:53 AM CST up reply actions 9 recs
If what Theo was doing yesterday was trying to increase Z's value..
…. more power to him, and I hope it works.
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If what Theo was doing yesterday was trying to keep Z...
…I reserve the right to boo him, yet I hope it works.
♪ He held me very tight under stars so bright and whispered darlin' "Who do you love tonight?" I told him "baseball, baseball...." ♫
If what epstein was doing yesterday was trying to keep Z...
…then it only proves this cliche’ as being correct …“Nobody’s perfect”. He went about a month or so without doing something stupid. What “cultural change”?
"Keep looking into the past and you'll keep repeating the past" - Some Smart Guy
It's mostly that.
But there’s something else at play. As has been discussed a lot recently, there is a definite lack of pitching available this offseason AND the Cubs’ rotation is really bad.
Epstein, in two months, might come to the conclusion that keeping Zambrano for one more year (with the possibility of spinning him to a contender) is a better investment than signing Jackson to a 4 year deal. If that happens, the Cubs will have to make a splash elsewhere — Prince Fielder, I’d guess — to mollify the fans and, possibly, the other players in the clubhouse.
And if Zambrano is back … well, the new president shouldn’t spend the offseason decrying him (or giving him the silent treatment).
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I agree.
Right now Zambrano is worthless in a trade situation. I’m sure one condition of his return is that he waives his no trade rights. So if he starts out strong, and the Cubs don’t, he might bring something of value in a trade.
That’s not the case at the present time.
by Clark Addison on Nov 15, 2011 9:56 AM CST up reply actions
Why on earth would you for one second consider the fans when making any kind of baseball decision??
Win, and you mollify the fans forever. Spend $200mm and you mollify the fans until the player’s first cold stretch. I love the word mollify, by the way.
I'm not suggesting a 2006-07 style offseason.
But let’s say the Cubs bring back Zambrano and Pena, meaning the only real difference will be the guy manning third — and that guy might be a downgrade. Team management shouldn’t make decisions SOLELY to mollify fans — but there has to be some reason to come out to the ballpark.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Beer, Ivy, Starlin, and seeing my mom happy to have been able to go to at least one more game (cancer)
works for me
Yeah, but we're superfans, you know?
I hope your mom gets to see a lot more games, in any case. :)
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
by elgato on Nov 15, 2011 6:10 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Me too!
I hear what you’re saying, though. We all obviously want as best of a team as possible to be fielded every year. I’m just burned by long onerous contracts. Every year I look to see if Soriano’s contract is almost over and there’s still MULTIPLE years left. It’s insane.
I would much rather Theo be Hendry by giving Z another chance than by doling out 8+ year contracts for $30mm/yr.
This car is on FIRE! FIRE! FIRE!
Chicago Blackhawks 2010 Stanley Cup Champions
Duke Blue Devils 2010 NCAA Men's Basketball Champions
It's not business as usual, Al. It's just business.
When life gives you lemons, you make lemonade.
Z is not a “cultural” artifact that polite company no longer needs to be displayed.
He is a commodity that will be thoroughly groomed, polished, cleaned and then dealt with.
If it ends up he’s in the Cubs rotation after “earning” it back, it’s business, baby.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
I think you can change the culture and stil bring him back if you have to for financial reasons
It’s only one more year and he can be kept on a very short leash. That being said, I’ve wanted Zambrano off the Cubs for a long time.
and get fined if/when
he does something stupid.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
and suspended
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
But why do you want to go through that circus again?
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I don't.
Neither does Carlos. If he realizes that he may get himself suspended by being himself, he might take a buyout to go FA in Spring Training.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
This is the smart move....
Theo is thinking cash and prospects. Let’s just say that Z Jeckyll shows up in the spring and is Mr Solid Citizen and throws the way he’s capable. He then breaks camp and pitches well in April and May——THEN you get what you can get and save a couple mill. to boot. Eventually Hyde will surface, but hopefully not until the baggage has been delivered somewhere else.
Best case scneario, I know—but maybe?
"God, I always said I would never bother you about baseball, but if you could make this pain in my shoulder stop for ten minutes, I would really appreciate it."
Billy Chapel
its also a contract year for Z, so...
I see him being on his best choir boy behavior, keeping his nose clean and pitching with some gusto and getting a new contract elsewhere next year.
So i you can give you can take it.
by epsilon on Nov 15, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
That's probably what he wants to do.
But Z’s problems usually don’t stem from anything well thought out.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
If he does well in this contract year and places top 4 in Cy Young voting and is healthy...
He will then have his 2013 option vest and the team will owe $19.25MM.
not that he's not capable...
but i dont think Z is capable of top 4 in Cy young. not with Halladay, Lee, Lincecum, Cain etc.
however, if Z finishes the season with no incidents because of the “trust but verify” AND he is in the top 4 in cy young, worse things could happen with that option vesting.
So i you can give you can take it.
Oh, I'm not saying he can do it. It just may be his motivation there.
In 2011 he had to finish top 2 in Cy Young which is not possible with the pitchers in the NL. But top 4 can happen if things go right for him.
thats a lot of ifs...
but also, it wouldnt be the worst thing if he is that good again, for the 19.25 option to pick up, and then at max you have him for one more year, and who knows, maybe his attitude is correctly adjusted.
I dont think it’ll happen, on both things, but who knows.
I just dont want to see the Cubs eat 18 million dollars on a position that we have absolutely no depth at.
So i you can give you can take it.
I'd rather Z get another chance, or a bad contract for bad contract thing.
I know a lot of people don’t like Figgins, but Z for Figgins could relieve the pressure of needing SP/1B/3B/OF to just SP/1B. Figgins would have 2 years, if he can play average or better defense to hold 3B till someone in the minors scream ready.
I'm okay with that...
doesnt excite me in any way, but okay with it. I’d rather have Z pitching than chone mucking around out there. but we’d still need a pitcher and its just so meh in the free agents this year. i’d rather spend some money on some serious pitchers next year.
So i you can give you can take it.
I'd rather have Z also, but if the masses say Z cannot come back then this is the only way to get something that might be useful.
A lot of people here and those on MLBTR take the stance of he shouldn't put a foot in the clubhouse for 2012.
by ubercubsfan on Nov 15, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
well the masses arent paying 18 million dollars for him...
they have nothing to lose if he pitches or doesnt.
So i you can give you can take it.
We don't really know if it's the only way.
Lotta offseason left. And the masses aren’t just BCBers and folks on other blogs.
Zambrano’s return could send a bad message to fans who might not come to Wrigley if they think Theo (to paraphrase Al) is the new Jim Hendry.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
how could any rational human being compare the two?
i dont see Theo “coddling” Z, from what i read of Theo’s comments he didnt say, “welcome back aboard buddy!” he said that Z has to earn his uniform back, that even if he does earn the uniform back, he’s going to be on a short leash…Cubs need a pitcher, there are really no great options for pitching, the cubs owe 18 mil to Z to pitch. let him pitch, if he burns Theo i’m sure Theo will be quick to yank the leash and cut the man. if he doesnt burn theo, well then its been a good year Z, good luck in your career.
So i you can give you can take it.
by epsilon on Nov 15, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, let's see.
The guy who founded this blog wrote a headline TODAY that implied that if Z returned, Theo would “be Jim Hendry” — look at the TITLE OF THIS POST, for crying out loud.
I consider Al to be very rational — more rational than most fans and more tapped in as far as information than most fans. I might not have chosen those exact words for a headline (I think Theo’s actions yesterday had more to do with bargaining position than anything). But I understand why a rational fan might come to that conclusion.
And, of course, not all fans are rational and most don’t have the amount of information that Al has. So it’s possible that a great number of people who pay money to watch the Chicago Cubs play baseball will see the return of Carlos Zambrano as a continuation of the the Cubs culture that everyone agrees needs to change.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I think it would be a real statement of culture change
… if Carlos Zambrano were not in a Cubs uniform in 2012.
Remember also, and I didn’t even mention this in my post, that Tom Ricketts said last August that he “couldn’t imagine” Z in a Cubs uniform again.
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You know I agree with you on this point.
My only disagreement with you today is that Theo’s actions yesterday don’t indicate, to me, that Theo is following in Hendry’s footsteps.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Perhaps not so far.
The headline is simply asking Theo to NOT do the same things Hendry did.
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I wouldn't even suggest that yet.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
All I want is for the new regime..
… to be the new regime, change the way things are done.
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Me, too, Al.
Again, I want Zambrano gone. I just don’t think Theo’s actions yesterday are evidence that the new boss is the same as the old boss.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Al...
thats where i see the Z situation changing the way things are done. Hendry blew his leverage the minute he said what he did about Zambrano. theo has done the opposite, he has tried to build value into Z and tried to see the Value Z may still have with the ball club.
So i you can give you can take it.
I understand that.
I hope he follows through and can deal him.
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I also think that
Z knows there’s a new sheriff in town and his antics will not be tolerated as well as when Hendry was here. I am 50/50 when it comes to letting Z go and giving him another chance.
Maybe this time Z has seen the light and realizes that whether he stays or goes, he needs to show that he is finally clear of his adolescent outbursts and can channel his competitiveness and passion to outs on the field of play. Only then can he reap any value he has left.
"IN THEO WE TRUST"
I would think...
that even if Z does pitch in a Cubs uniform next year he would see the real comparison between the two and realize they are not alike. i mean this is day two of this discussion between the two of us. i’m honestly not backing off my position of thinking that for the good of the ball club z pitches in 2012 for the Cubs because of the money, because of his contract, because the Cubs need a pitcher. you arent coming off yours, and honestly both of us see our stances for the betterment of the team and its a good debate. i’m not going to be pitchforking and torching if theo and Jed dont follow my theory.
So i you can give you can take it.
I mostly didn't like your statement ...
that a rational person couldn’t compare Theo and Hendry based on this. But you’re right that we’re not going to change each other’s mind.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
and my statement was for more of the
Cubs.com posters who are black and white stances….
So i you can give you can take it.
Fair enough.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I'm confused.
Hendry was castigated for wasting money. He was also committed to getting rid of Z after the Atlanta incident. So, how would Theo dumping Z and wasting money in the process be a culture change?
"The cheaper the hood, the gaudier the talk" - Philip Marlowe
by ForTheLoveOfBiitner on Nov 15, 2011 5:29 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I'm sorry. It's not.
Carlos Zambrano has no (or very, very little) control of his emotions. The fact that he’s in a contract year only changes the math if we think Z can actually control his emotions for once.
Put another way: In Z’s last contract year, he ended up getting into a fistfight with his own catcher. Yes, that helped galvanize the 2007 team, but that had more to do with Lou effectively channeling that frustrating.
Last point: Zambrano has talked about retiring on more than one occasion, and he’s made tens of millions of dollars in his life. Given how all over the place he could be, I wouldn’t be shocked AT ALL if he retired after 2012.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Gotta disagree.
Big Z obviously has trouble with his emotions, but he’s also not stupid. He’s going to turn 31 next season and even he must know that he’s coming off a dismal season statistically and probably isn’t in the Cubs plans beyond 2012. I’ll believe he’s going to retire when I see it. There was talk about Aramis Ramirez doing the same thing, and he’s looking for four more years. I’ll start saying the same thing about Z than I said about Kosuke: One more year.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
I don't actually think he's going to retire.
But he didn’t control his temper in 2007. Why should we think he can now?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
He's four years older...
…and not the same pitcher.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Who's shown no sign that he's matured emotionally in that time.
Are you saying that he knows he needs to behave better because he can’t get by on his talent anymore? Hell, the REVERSE is just as possible. He might explode thanks to the added pressure.
Again, how do you give Carlos Freaking Zambrano any benefit of the doubt when it comes to self-control? What do you base that on, other than normal, every day logic that has never seemed to matter with this guy?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I think fear for his future...
…could keep Z in line a little longer than it previously did. (Hey, he didn’t melt down in 2011 until August!) So, again, assuming he can’t be traded (which should still be pursued), I can see a rational case for trying to squeeze as much value out of the last year of his deal as you can.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
I'm fine with your last sentence.
Keeping him might be the best course of action, sadly. But we shouldn’t paint it as anything that’s a good idea because he MIGHT show self-control for the first time as a Cub.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
You're claiming he NEVER has control of his emotions when that's simply not the case
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
All it takes is one Atlanta-style incident, Nunya.
That’s all it was last year. He (mostly) behaved the rest of the time. But if he explodes once more — even if he’s an angel the rest of the time …
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Right.
He’s promised to never do it again — at one point citing his young kids and wanting to set an example for them.
And then he did it again. I have little faith in Z’s promises.
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No one does. Including Theo. That doesn't mean he can just jettison $18 million
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think anybody is really advocating THAT.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Some people, in fact, are.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 11:57 AM CST up reply actions
Are you among them?
I’m not. I’d rather roll the dice on Chone Figgins — and push half of the $18 million to 2013 — then simply pay Z for sitting at home and chatting online with his relatives in Venezuela.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
yes they absolutely are.
Al appears to be one of them
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No, I'm not.
I would like to see him traded, even if that means eating 75% of the contract.
Getting maybe $4.5 million of salary relief and a low level prospect or two — I’d be fine with that.
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Just as importantly, what if Zambrano isn't?
Like Aramis last year, he doesn’t need to accept a trade simply because it’s better for the Cubs. In fact, the ideal situation for him is to get cut, so he can choose his team.
Well, Aramis' and Zambrano's situations really aren't similar.
In that Aramis hasn’t been a continued clubhouse cancer anywhere near the level Zambrano has.
If Zambrano torches his career with the Cubs, while simultaneously refusing to leave, there aren’t going to be a whole lot of teams willing to offer him much of a contract. At the very least there’s a CHANCE he could further diminish his value to other teams.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
None of what you typed is really a reason for him to accept a trade
Again, his position can simply be “play me or cut me.” In that situation he’s not really harming his value – after all, he wants to play. If they cut him, then he can simply select what team he wants to play for.
Again, yes he can take that position
It wouldn’t be a particularly smart move. And his situation is different from Aram’s.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
Why wouldn't it be a smart move?
A lot of teams in baseball would be will to take a $500k chance on him. I don’t see how refusing a trade because he wants to pitch for the Cubs hurts his value in the long run.
Well sure, if he wants to make the league minimum or get a minor league contract
that’s the route he can go. It wouldn’t be smart because it might mean he loses out on dollars in the future if he CONTINUES to act like a clubhouse cancer.
If he’s really going to retire after 2012, as he’s claimed, then yes he probably won’t care that he looks like a giant douche one more time. If he wants another team to give him more than rent-a-player money, then it would make sense to agree to a trade if he has yet ANOTHER meltdown and some team is dumb enough to trade for him
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
...huh?
If the Cubs cut him during or before the 2012 season, Zambrano will make his full salary no matter what. If he signs with another team after being cut, that team will only have to pay the league minimum salary (while Z continues to receive his full paycheck from the Cubs).
So… huh?
FTFY
If they cut him, then he can simply select what team he wants to play for. wait and see which teams want him to pitch for them.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
I guarantee that at the MLB minimum there would be multiple suitors
And in that situation he would be able to select which one he plays for.
Ok, but your inital comment made it seem like...
he would be able to just tell his agent which ML team to call and get a contract with.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 4:12 PM CST up reply actions
I would happily take a repeat of 2007 Zambrano
18-13 (W-L), 3.95 ERA, 216.1 IP, 1.331 WHIP, 117 ERA+
If you were to tell me right now that he’ll repeat those numbers and all I have to worry about is he’s going to punch Geo once in the face, well, then I’d say: “Welcome back Z! Oh, and Geo, keep that facemask on at all times.”
by Orval Overall on Nov 15, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
Five years later?
With all the baggage? I don’t see him repeating that.
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Well that's a different issue.
I’m not saying that physically he has the same tools. But the comment above that I was responding to tried to make the point that in Z’s last contract year his emotions got the best of him, so we shouldn’t expect the contract year to keep him in line this time around. My response was simply that for a guy who was supposedly out of control in 2007, Z posted a pretty good line, so I don’t think that criticism works – punching Barrett notwithstanding.
by Orval Overall on Nov 15, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'd take 2010...
…if he could tack on another 40-50 IP to that season’s total.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
I think you know that that wasn't the point I was making.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Bill James Projections look pretty good
10-10 3.83 ERA 180 innings.
We really need that production in a thin free agent market.
It is really Z’s last chance to redeem himself since it’s last contract year. I really don’t see Z as a Cancer like Milton Bradley.
What did James project for 2011?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I am not sure about 2011
some projections for 2011 from other sources were about a 3.7 ERA.
2011 was the only year he’s had a era above 3.95 besides 2001 (1 game).
His strike out rate was down a lot but his strikeout rate has been up and down through out his career.
James tends to lean toward the overly optimistic side of things.
But that’s still nice to see.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Trust-but-verify
Theo using a new group of terms.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
by timh815 on Nov 15, 2011 8:42 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
This kept us out of WW3
I’m sure it can work with a head case pitcher who plays in the NL Central.
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Nov 15, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
I think Z was told yesterday he will be traded and they
probably talked about a handful of teams he would go to with it not being an issue. I am also guessing they talked about how to repair his image (if possible) so that going to a new team won’t be as hard as it could be.
I agree with this.
I’m not sure what grounds I have to base my belief on (hope?) but this makes the most sense to me. We would be selling low on Z right now and it would only make sense for Theo to give as much puffery as possible. I just find it unlikely that Theo would chose to forget the Carlos of old and believe that he’s a new man.
"You know they're not going to lose 162 consecutive games." -Harry Caray
As I said in the thread. I am putting my trust in Theo here
You act as if he has no real understanding of what has happened in the past.
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 8:45 AM CST reply actions 10 recs
I strongly doubt Z sees May 1st in Wrigley
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
I will go double or nothing on my lunch entree
that he does.
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 8:53 AM CST up reply actions
Kind of figured you were not going to bet against the Packers again.
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 8:58 AM CST up reply actions
I guarantee this 100%
Because the Cubs play in Cincinnati on May 1. For Z to see Wrigley that day, he’d need to be on a guided tour.
by Orval Overall on Nov 15, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks for catching that
Al revised bet. Z is WEARING a Cubs uniform May 1 in Cincinnati.
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
This leaves every door open
Although HIGHLY unlikely, Z could return to the Cubs. And by leaving that door open, Theo doesn’t cost the Cubs any trade value, and doesn’t lose face if he’s forced to keep Zambrano. In that way, he definitely isn’t being like Hendry, who repeatedly tied his own hands in these situations.
Bleacher Nation - Cubs Rumors and News
by Brett Taylor on Nov 15, 2011 8:48 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
Like this^
If Epstein says, “There is no way Zambrano will ever play for the Cubs again. I’d rather touch the 3rd rail on a CTA train first,” then other teams know that if they wait a flyer on Zambrano will cost them about $400K for 2012. With some chance he will be on the Cubs, they will have to offer a bit more.
It’s called “not being dumb.” I know that is new for Cubs GMs, but we should get used to it (and celebrate it).
by ClarkFan on Nov 15, 2011 8:52 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
"We'll play with 24 before we bring him back!"
/hangs “for trade” sign out back, is surprised at the total lack of offers
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
wasn't Hendry fired at this point in time?
by cozmotaylor123 on Nov 15, 2011 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
That was after the WhiteSox blowup in 2010. Hendry wasn't fired for another year.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I just wonder how many teams...
…would actually be willing to take a shot on Z?? I could maybe see the Marlins willing to take one, but otherwise I think the market for him would be pretty slim. I would not be at all shocked to see him earn his way back to the Cubs next spring.
KC Royals said they would take Z, if the Cubs simply handed him over.
So we have that going for us.
"Beisbol been berry berry good to me." -Tony Oliva
And if we could get even some lower pieces of the KC farm system I would be okay.
"You know they're not going to lose 162 consecutive games." -Harry Caray
This won't happen early - the FA signings need to shake out first
Z will be a flyer for a team, not the 1st pick for a 2012 rotation piece.
Patience. Rome wasn’t built in a day…..
Theo is trying to boost Z's value...
I think this is as smart of a PR move as we’ve seen so far from Epstein. Look at what’s happening here… Teams looking to add pitching in a very scarce pitching environment want to know if he’s going to turn out to be Milton Bradley.
Best case scenario, the Cubs find a suitor for him before spring training and his value is much higher than it is right now when the scarce crop of free agents have already signed.
Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.
this ^^^^^^
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
And let the second guessing begin...I didn't expect it from you Al
The problem with Z is that he was never held accountable. The only discipline he ever received was only reactionary, it certainly wasn’t proactive. Z has never had to be accountable to anyone, I expect that to change for every player under the headship of Theo Epstein.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
by troutfishin on Nov 15, 2011 8:52 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
Seriously - Al, this is how the game of big-time GM-ing is played properly.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Nov 15, 2011 8:55 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
and Mike Maddux?
I kid, but honestly i have a lot more faith in Maddux and Alomar in particular being able to deal with Z than Dusty or Lou.
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 8:55 AM CST up reply actions
Yep!
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
Well.
That’s possible, I suppose. But no one was able to control this kind of behavior in the past. Why is it different now?
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True enough.
There are no guarantees, though.
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Zambrano also might figure ...
that he’d better get his act together if he wants a job (or, at least, a lucrative one) in 2013. I wouldn’t be totally shocked if Theo told him something like that.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
No one has ever had the BALLS to deal with him properly
every time they disciplined him it was because they were forced into a corner, they never took proactive measures with him.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
We don't know that.
What about the anger management he took after the 2010 blowup? Why didn’t that solve the problem for good?
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she was hot!!!
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
So does she
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Nov 15, 2011 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
No one has controlled Z yet...
both the player and GM have an incentive to play nice. z costs himself money in his next contract if doesn’t play the part. in the past he had multiple years left. Would expect that the possibility of lost money will discipline him more than Theo or Hnedry, Maddux, etc…
Carlos would get a mustache slap if Maddux was the sheriff of Wrigleyville.
"You know they're not going to lose 162 consecutive games." -Harry Caray
by Mapanator on Nov 15, 2011 9:00 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd it
Z has never had to be accountable to anyone, I expect that to change for every player under the headship of Theo Epstein.
It’s been a vicious cycle for years.
Flawed Cubs Culture—→Promising Future with Big Z——→No Accountability——→Tantrums
One can’t expect someone to grow up when they have never been given guide lines and/or structure, throughout their life, to abide by and follow.
It’s all about to change!!
"The standard is the standard" Mike Tomlin
I'm assuming htis is just trade negotiations
If Zambrano starts the season as a Cub, that is the end of Theo’s leash for me. I’m growing weary of the “Theo knows best” routine.
He won two World Series with a gigantic payroll and one of the greatest postseason pitchers ever and maybe not a little help from steroids. It’s time maybe to say, “WTF, Theo?”
We’ve seen this movie before. Zambrano always fails. Always. He is too old to change.
Zambrano starts the season, he gets ONE incident. Then, if he is even let back into the locker room to change clothes, then freak this freaking team and this freaking game.
"It's all in the game, yo"
Yep he won two WS with a giant payroll
while the Cubs could not get past round 1 with a giant payroll. I am giving my full trust to Theo
for a long while ( and I promise even if he does not hire Maddux I will be fine because every guy they have interviewed looks good to me)
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 8:57 AM CST up reply actions
No but Z is a player with a huge upside
and I don’t think Theo wants to give that away for zip. The Cubs history of attacking their own problem players and getting little for them is not something I want Epstein to do.
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 9:01 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
His upside was lost long ago
He’s too old and he is showing injury issues.
Sticking with him is like sticking with the hot girl who is actually crazy because she can still clean up well once in a while. In the end, the sex is never as good as the crazy is bad.
"It's all in the game, yo"
I did not realize the last half of 2009 was that long ago
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 9:03 AM CST up reply actions
Yes thank you
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 9:04 AM CST up reply actions
17-7 in between 2010 and 2011 suspensions
I’m not sayin, I’m just sayin.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
Nobody should need sex so bad as to put up with crazy
and no team needs pitching this badly
"It's all in the game, yo"
I think some people
take the prefix “theo” (meaning God) literally for him.
♪ He held me very tight under stars so bright and whispered darlin' "Who do you love tonight?" I told him "baseball, baseball...." ♫
Just to clarify...
if he gets us to the WS, I will be one of them.
♪ He held me very tight under stars so bright and whispered darlin' "Who do you love tonight?" I told him "baseball, baseball...." ♫
by katie casey on Nov 15, 2011 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
At the same time
Theo also presided over a team that had the worst September collapse in baseball history.
Not that I don’t think Theo knows what he’s doing — but just saying that you trust him because he won two World Series, doesn’t mean he knows everything.
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No but I think he knows how to deal with players who are a problem
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 9:07 AM CST up reply actions
His problem players produced
Manny was the best hitter in baseball not named Albert when he was a problem. And his other major problem, Nomar, got shipped out.
"It's all in the game, yo"
And yet, he had to dump Manny when Manny quit on the team.
Theo didn’t hesitate to do that.
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Would Theo have been better off slamming Manny to the press in the 2003-04 offseason?
Or maybe…. is it a sometimes a positive step to laugh off the troubled player with the occasional “Manny being Manny”?
Manny was being crazy and Theo let it be known that he’d put Manny on waivers. No one took him. And even if they had, Theo could have pulled him back. It was a no-risk power move, and it put Manny back in check. Publicly, Theo said all the right things. Privately, it appears, he also said all the right things.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Clearly, I think Theo is trying to increase Z's trade value here.
Let’s hope it works.
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Says the man still hot for Mr. Beane
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
Says who?
I’m perfectly happy with the hires that have been made. Just pointing out that they’re not perfect people.
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...

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 15, 2011 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
LoL!!! I knew that was coming.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
Well that was large
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:22 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Your leash sounds like a chocker collar with a 2 link chain.
Give the guy a break, if he can’t move Z, 18 million is hard to swallow.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
Theo holds ALL the cards...
in this situation. Basically, he has Z by the throat and even the smallest slip up and Theo can just release him. The Cubs are in need of SP and have one under contract. It doesn’t make sense to trade him if you have to eat a significant portion of the contract. If it were Hendry still in command then I totally agree that trading makes sense but with a new regime I believe a “my way or the highway” approach will be set as the level of expecation for Z and all players within the Cubs organization. That’s the new culture.
Also, Big Z sells tickets…. He’s an entertaining player to watch (and I’m not talking about the blowups) but in general I enjoy his approach to the game and his competiveness.
by cubbiefanTN on Nov 15, 2011 8:57 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
His approach to the game????
He approaches games without stretching, hydrating, thinking about his own at-bats instead of the opposing teams’ and loses it at the slightest error by his outfielders.
His approach to the game would get any 8-year-old kicked out of Little League
"It's all in the game, yo"
Z holds the contract
And the 10 & 5 rights. And apparently he did not retire according to an arbitrator or MLB. If he had, the Cubs could easily have cut ties with him by now.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 15, 2011 9:17 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, you have that completely backwards.
If Z wants to, he can make the Cubs liable for his full salary. Release isn’t exactly punishment – in that case, Z gets to choose his team and still gets paid the same amount.
The Cubs have very little leverage here, and the best thing for them to do is to get as much value from him as they can – and given his trade value and no trade rights, that’s only going to happen on the field.
by Wreckard on Nov 15, 2011 9:33 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
well...
that’s what i get for posting before I had my first cup of coffee! Thanks for setting me straight.
Still wouldn’t mind to have him back if he can get / keep his nose clean.
by cubbiefanTN on Nov 15, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
Wondering if
we get to see Mike Maddux burp him.
♪ He held me very tight under stars so bright and whispered darlin' "Who do you love tonight?" I told him "baseball, baseball...." ♫
by katie casey on Nov 15, 2011 8:57 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
The best part of that was his response when someone shouted
that Z was 6’5 and weighed something like 200 pounds. Maddux said with a laugh
“Strong back baby”.
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 9:02 AM CST up reply actions
I was looking forward to Baby Z being burped by Daddy Maddux.

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
5 and 10 rights? NTC?
Can Zambrano be moved? He has to agree to any trade since he has 10 years in the league all as a Cub.
I am willing to see if Z responds to a change of management, but if not and he doesn’t want to be traded what can the Cubs do, outright release him and pay $18M for nothing? That doesn’t sound like good business to me.
Better to see what you can get out of him for one last year and make the best of the situation.
by El Borto on Nov 15, 2011 9:01 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
This.
The Cubs have zero leverage here. The sensible thing to do is let him play. It’s just one year, and likely a lost one at that.
by Wreckard on Nov 15, 2011 9:34 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I can see it now. The Cubs' new marketing plan:
It’s just one year, and likely a lost one at that.
But still come to Wrigley! We have beer!
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I keep telling myself...
that everybody who has been watching this train wreck understands this fact, but evidently, I’m wrong.
Culture changing is a process, one that usually can take upwards of a decade to fully embrace. There’s no reason to paint yourself into a corner over a guy in the last year of his deal. The Cubs aren’t re-signing him, so realistically, he probably is out of here by July anyway.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 15, 2011 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm sorry, but you can't know this with any certainty:
The Cubs aren’t re-signing him, so realistically, he probably is out of here by July anyway.
If Z melts down again — and history would indicate that he very likely will — do you really think a team in contention will trade for him? Worse, Z’s outbursts often seriously affect his performance.
You can make your case that keeping Z - when there’s little good starting pitching on the FA to be had, when the Cubs have few options internally - is a smart play. But predicting that another team will “probably” take this goofball off our hands in July? That’s borderline ridiculous.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
If Z had another meltdown...
(Assuming he’s with the Cubs next season), he’d likely be immediately released. So he still wouldn’t be with the Cubs, would he?
by Damen Jackson on Nov 15, 2011 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
No.
He would get suspended to the fullest extent permitted. And we’ll save some money.
He will be gone before then, I think.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
I think so too...
As I said, I just don’t get the people that think that you can just drop kick him to whatever destination that the Cubs wish, or that it’s definitely in their best interest to do so. I mean, did someone really suggest a Chone Figgins for Zambrano trade? REALLY? Crap, at that point, it’s better to just waive the guy, and let Baker play third.
by Damen Jackson on Nov 15, 2011 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
Just because someone's yapping on
a Cubs board doesn’t mean they know what they’re talking about.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
by timh815 on Nov 15, 2011 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
I suppose.
But I don’t know if he would be released if he had another meltdown.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
He'd
get
suspended. And lose money. That the Cubs could keep.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
I don't think that's true.
Does the labor agreement allow for that?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I suspect
… that there might be some sort of agreement that this really would be the last, last, wereallymeanitthistime last chance, with some sorts of penalties if he melts down again.
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I don't think you can assume that ...
given the nature of the current labor agreement.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Did he get paid
last suspension?
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
I believe he did not get paid for the actual period
of the suspension but then the Cubs agreed to pay him and not show up after that.
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 15, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
Not necessarily.
What if Z has a Carlos Silva-esque first half of the season? I don’t think it’s out of the question that a contender, desperate to stabilize the lower portion of its rotation, would trade for him.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
That's possible.
It’s not probable, which is what I was reacting to — that Z would probably be good enough in the first half to warrant a trade. That seems unlikely to me given his combustible nature AND the fact that he isn’t the pitcher he was three years ago.
Now, Damen cleared that up to say he’d either be good enough or he’d be released if he melted down. I’m not sure you can hang a “probable” on those actions either — though I agree adding the possibility of release increases the chances that Damen’s original statement was accurate.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
This is an important point, too.
Bringing Z back may be a setback for the culture change we want to see. But isn’t that culture change going to have to take root at the minor league levels anyway? Carlos Zambrano doesn’t have that much culture-destroying power, and he’s more than likely not going to be here in 2013 anyway even if he did.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
It's a perception problem.
If Z comes back, struggles and then melts down, the new regime looks bad. That can affect ticket sales and the ability to compete going forward.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
They'll only look bad...
…to fans who let their emotions get the better of them. And, again, emotionally speaking, I want Z gone, too. But, rationally speaking, if he melts down, they can release him (maybe after 15 to 20 starts) and say, “Meh, we gave it a shot.”
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Look at the title of this post, daver.
Al Yellon is a rational guy, and he believed (at least, when he wrote the headline) that Epstein’s comments yesterday indicated that he could “be Jim Hendry.”
And, anyway, are you really saying that fans (by and large) pay for tickets to Cubs games based on rationality?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
No, I'm saying the Cubs front office has to think and act rationally.
Let the fans indulge in their emotions. That’s part of the fun of baseball.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
It's not that simple.
What if attendance at Wrigley falls to 2.5 million in 2012 because the fans see a lousy team AND a new management regime that’s ineffective and not really changing the culture?
You can’t just write off fan reaction when fans are the ones who pay for the team.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
If the attendance didn't fall that far...
…during the hopeless mess that was 2011, I doubt it’s going to in 2012. And we’re talking about one player here — who can quickly be dealt with (i.e., released) if he does melt down. (And, again, who has one year left on his deal.) You guys are building Z up into more of a monster than he really is.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
by daver on Nov 15, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And you're cutting him more slack and giving him more credit ...
than he deserves. How can you argue that Carlos Zambrano can exercise self control AT ALL?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Cmon dude.
How can you argue that Carlos Zambrano can exercise self control AT ALL?
Because he’s done it. Not as often as he should have, but the dude doesn’t lose his damn mind on a daily basis.
Your question pretty much underlines the comment you were responding to.
“You guys are building Z up into more of a monster than he really is”
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
the dude doesn’t lose his damn mind on a daily basis.
No, he doesn’t. But I don’t see other players causing these disruptions even as often as Z does.
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and bad drivers don't get into accidents on a daily basis...
what’s your point here?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
THANK you.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
That he can indeed control his temper when he actually wants to.
EG is making the man out to be some deranged lunatic, marauding through Wrigley field
I think there’s a chance that Zambrano can control himself long enough to drag his value off the cellar floor, and I think that’s all Theo is hoping for. As I said earlier, Zambrano’s trade value has never been lower. If he can go the first half, and be a decent pitcher who doesn’t freak out, there may be a team at the deadline who’s willing to pay SOME of his contract.
Right now, I think teams are more than willing to make the Cubs cut him.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll rephrase my original statement.
How can you argue that Carlos Zambrano can exercise self control over a sustained period of time?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
And I'll answer the same way
Because he has before.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
So you're rolling the dice ...
that Carlos Zambrano (who has very little self control) will wait until after he’s traded to have his annual melt down?
Year 3. It’s happening!
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Yep.
Just because he goes long periods without incident doesn’t mean there won’t be another one.
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Like herpes.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
Like herpes.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
Nothing worse than getting it twice.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
No pics - it never happened
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:54 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
What the hell do you want to do then?
I’m not rolling any dice, I have no control over the situation. I’m choosing not to rend my garments over a situation that appears to be getting handled as well as humanly possible.
You say you aren’t advocating just cutting him loose, you claim you want to trade him. How do you trade him at this point without basically eating his contract? His value is ZERO.
Theo is taking a gamble that Zambrano will be able to control himself for a long enough period of time that his value will be SOMETHING. He’s basically gambling with someone else’s chips. If Zambrano melts down again, it’s the first time under Theo’s watch and the choad is gone. If he doesn’t melt down until we can unload him, then….BONUS.
I’m not saying the man is cured, I’m saying we have very few alternatives than hope he can contain himself for a while
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
Assuming Figgins' defense at third is at least average ...
I’d trade him straight up for Z.
Yesterday.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
You have no idea if that offer is actually on the table
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
True.
My point is that I would have very low expectations in what I would take in return.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Why cement those expecations, instead of trying to raise them?
You’re basically saying Theo is making a mistake, because he’s trying desperately to raise Zambrano’s value.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
Um, if you read my comments ...
throughout this thread, it’s clear that I like what Theo did yesterday, and that I think it’s as much about bargaining position, as anything else.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
While simultaneously claiming there's no way Zambrano can raise his trade value
because he can’t control himself for long periods of time.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
That's not exactly what I said.
I said it’s foolish to hope that he can, given his history — and that we would essentially be hoping that we can time his meltdowns.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Ok, I'm gonna let this go in a minute
but those certainly seem like contradictory positions to me.
You like that Theo is trying to raise Zambrano’s trade value, while claiming it’s foolish to try.
That’s how your coming off to me.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
At no point have I said it's foolish to try.
I’ve said it’s foolish for us, as fans, to hold out much hope for what Zambrano can do next year as a member of the Cubs. That’s important because some BCBers are turning up their noses at (admittedly speculative) trade proposals like the Figgins/Zambrano swap.
If you think he can hold out for most of the season without melting down, then you’re less likely to be OK with a trade of another bad contract.
But Theo should absolutely try to raise Z’s value. The TEAM PRESIDENT should not say, “Z’s a pain in the ass. We’re going to dump him.” But it’s fine if we, as fans, think that way regarding what we hope and what we will accept as far as a Zambrano trade.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Ugh.
You do know Figgins has at least TWO years left on his contract, right?
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Well aware.
You realize that it would be the same as deferring $9 million from Z’s contract this year, right?
Might be the difference between having Grady Sizemore or Tyler Colvin in right.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I'd rather take a chance on Z's pitching.
We’d probably get the same or better level of defense (and overall production) from some combination of Flaherty, Baker and LeMahieu. Figgins has been pretty bad for two seasons running.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Maybe.
but then you only have half for next offseason, when Zambrano will be gone regardless, the minor league system has had a year to develop, and there’s big name starting pitching hitting FA.
And Chone Figgins sucks really really bad. At least there is some glimmer of hope Zambrano won’t totally suck.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Nov 15, 2011 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
Two years. And owed $1M less than Z over those 2 years.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Sure. I'd want to see how Z looks, I guess.
I’d also want to see Figgins running pain-free.
If the team is serious about keeping Z as Plan A, which I don’t believe that they are, then you have to actually look at whether he can be your 3-4 starter.
If they’re looking to ditch as much salary as possible, this hypothetical is better than most.
$1M in true savings, plus $9M deferred to 2013, plus the money saved from whatever you were going to give someone to play 3B. You might even be able to get SEA to throw some cash your way.
You’re adding a guy who is a couple of years removed from being a really disruptive force and who can play a lot of positions. Granted, he’s probably unable to contribute the way he did for Anaheim, as he’s older and coming off a leg injury.
But as lightning-in-a-bottle chances go, I like it more than trading Ted Lilly for Blake DeWitt.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Fair enough.
Like you say, it all depends on whether Theo & Jed are seriously considering Z for next season or whether all of this talk is just posturing to maintain or drive up his trade value. Given the state of our starting rotation, I’m inclined to think they’re serious about bringing him back unless they get a really great trade offer.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Seriously.
You make it sound like every time he’s walked out to the pitcher’s mound, he’s flipped an umpire the bird or punched a catcher. He’s got issues, but he’s also pitched well over 1,800 innings at the major league level. There’s certainly reason to believe he could make it at least partly through a season without losing control in some major way — especially in a contract year.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
I object to that characterization.
I never said there wasn’t reason to believe that he can’t make it at least partly through a season without losing control. But the eruption always comes — it’s at least once a season, sometimes twice.
I’m not in the cut-Z-now camp. But let’s be sincere about who and what this guy is.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Except for the part where you said he can't control himself for any period of time.
You’re doing a pretty good TJ impression on this issue EG
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:18 PM CST up reply actions
That's not exactly what I said.
My original statement:
How can you argue that Carlos Zambrano can exercise self control AT ALL?
Later amended:
How can you argue that Carlos Zambrano can exercise self control over a sustained period of time?
My original comment wasn’t intended to mean that he couldn’t have self control for a few games. I realized that it was unclear, and amended.
And let’s keep this civil, huh? I know you like to go for the jugular, but I’m not in the mood to go 10 rounds with you today, Nunya.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Your question just seemed to imply...
…a certain amount of hysteria on this issue. Z has been able to pitch for long periods within a season without blowing up. All I’m saying is, if I can’t trade him, I’d put him in the rotation and see how far he can go without forcing my hand.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
And I'm saying ...
that our bar has to be really low in terms of return, considering that Z could blow up at any time. Just because he blew up in August last year doesn’t mean he’ll make it that long again.
And if that means taking a serious look at Chone Figgins (assuming he can still play third capably) then so be it.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Well, as stated above...
…if it’s a choice between Z and Figgy, I’m rollin’ with Z and taking my chances.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
And if we go that way ...
we’ll be holding our breath/waiting for the next Z melt down.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Absolutely.
But, looking on the bright side, it would add another level of interest/tension to the season. Another spice for our soup, if you will.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Sorry.
I’m sick of that spice. Walking out on his teammates — after they had given him a pass for SO MUCH crap over the years was too much for me.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
What was the state of the team?
What was their record? How was the defense? I could go on…
I’m not advocating what Z did…but, it wasn’t like he walked out on this cohesive, winning team. The team was run by clowns and his teammates played like clowns…what do you expect from a volatile, competitive person?
You inferred so much on one of my previous posts about competent management. Please tell me that anything ran and handled by Jim Hendry was competent.
Didn't say it does...
But it doesn’t mean that Theo and Jed can’t make a difference with Z.
The Cubs won three division titles under Jim Hendry.
His time had passed, he clearly was being outsmarted by other GMs and hiring Mike Quade was a terrible decision.
But to question whether ‘anything’ was competent in the Hendry years is … well, really strange. Was the Ramirez trade competent? Was the D-Lee trade?
I’m not excusing Hendry, and it was time for him to go. But you’re overreaching to ridiculous extremes.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
He was competent...
At raping low-budget teams and spending outlandishly. He was competent at letting drama perpetuate.
Is that ridiculously overreaching?
Without giving him credit for any of the good things he did here?
Yes. Yes, it is.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Wrong.
I’ve given him credit…I just don’t think JH was competent whatsoever at handling controversy. The proof is there.
You’re definitely ridiculously overreaching every time you comment on my posts because you assume waaaay too much. Ask more questions first.
Ha. Hilarious.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
So...
Hendry was competent at handling controversy?
Nope...
Asking a question. You want to answer?
So ...
you like the change the argument midstream — and you like to put the onus on other posters to understand exactly what you’re thinking?
Saying Hendry mismanaged controversies is a LOOOONG way from saying everything he did was incompetent.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Well, there was this?
Please tell me that anything ran and handled by Jim Hendry was competent.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
What?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Ah. Good point.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Are you drunk?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
It comes in waves.
My wife’s out of town. But I see you’re changing the argument again.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I was trying to understand your comment.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I had a large garlic and spinach pizza with 3 glasses of a Chardonnay.
Does that make drunk?
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
You said...
I wasn’t going to admit I was wrong…well, I did.
You'll never admit that Nutter Butters are better than Eskimo Pies.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 5:21 PM CST up reply actions
I need to turn off this computer.
I read “Nutter Butters” as “Nutler Brothers,” and I was about to ask “WTF is a Nutler Brother?!”
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Damn, shoe!
You got served!
Not.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Can we please stop with the "Everthing Shoemile does is wrong"...
wait…on second thought, let’s keep that up until ST is over.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 5:22 PM CST up reply actions
i hate comment chains
that get so long that they look like these
THEOOOOOOOOO (and Hoyer)
by jesus christos on Nov 15, 2011 5:28 PM CST up reply actions
Especially on iPhones...
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:50 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
#firstworldlproblems
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
Just like Z is.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:57 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
NO PROBLEM, BRO
THEOOOOOOOOO (and Hoyer)
by jesus christos on Nov 15, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
I'll rip Hendry all day.
But I’m not going to buy into the attitude that whoever just left/got canned was responsible for everything wrong with this team (It was quite the lovely maneuver for all the Hendry defenders until there was no one left to blame but the man himself).
Perhaps Theo and Jed can fix him for this year. I’ve said as much. I’ll pull my hair out if there’s a whiff of talk about an extension, though. He’s a ticking time bomb, and that’s his fault.
Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!
Now that I'd pay front row prices for
FIGHT!!!
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 15, 2011 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
Dude...that kind of thinking is EXACTLY the kind of thing most of us want changed with this franchise.
It seems that the motto of The Chicago Cubs has always been…

It time to scrap that and try running this organization as if they EXPECT to win.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
So, to be clear, you're advocating that the Cubs...
…release Carlos Zambrano from his contract as a statement that the team expects to win?
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
No, I'm advocating that regardless of whatever they decide to do with Carlos Zambrano...
if it DOESN’T END WELL they don’t piss away 24-48 hours of media time and then come out in the press and shrug their shoulders and say “Meh, we gave it a shot.”
I want to see some semblance of leadership displayed by Hoyer and Epstein nano-seconds after anything happens…something along the lines of “THIS AGGRESSION WILL NOT STAND.”
I get that Zambrano’s contract is totally cost prohibitive to just eat and barring swapping him for someone else’s problem(s), he’ll most likely be a Cub in 2012. I just want the choke chain on him really tight and on a hair trigger.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
I suspect that will be the case...
…if Carlos does come back and I agree. But I don’t really see the point in getting all outraged at Z if he does blow up. We all know who he is and how he’s capable of behaving. What will matter more is if another young player comes along who behaves similarly — then it will be important for management to make a statement.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
At this point...
nobody should be surprised or outraged if Z blows up.
I think people are just really uncomfortable not knowing how these new guys in the front office and whoever the next manager is will handle it if/when the Z bomb does go off. We just got this new, fresh hope installed and I think everyone just wants to be able to wash the stink of the past decade off…and the Z behavior thing is a really old wound that’s never healed with the fan-base around here. Mostly because Z finds a way to rip the scab off every single freaking year.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
DINGDINGDING!
Winner.
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by Al Yellon on Nov 15, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's laying it on a little thick
Especially the “stink of the past decade” bit, given that there were 3 playoff appearences in that last decade.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 15, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
how often do you reminisce and bask in those "appearances"????
…….yeah….thought so.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:50 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not built that way
I don’t need a sports team to boost my ego. Maybe you do.
Now, back to what you said. Thanks, but I don’t need you to characterize how everyone feels. It can’t help but be wrong and overstated. It’s basically how you feel and an attempt to project it and validate it. No thanks.
I’ll be fine with or without Z on the Cubs next year. I’ll go to games, drink beer, and have fun with my friends.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 15, 2011 3:03 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I hope you enjoy every minute of every game you go to.
I don’t have much of an ego, so I don’t really have much “at steak” when it comes to defending myself…and I was only summing up what has seemed to be a pretty general consensus around these parts for some time. You may disagree with it, but that only puts you in the minority.
Whether or not Z pitches for us in 2012 isn’t up to you or me, so what we’re talking about is just for fun anyway.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 3:33 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks for help us chew the fat in here ballhawk.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 4:04 PM CST up reply actions
thanks Emelie, ballhawk and I don't always meat eye to eye on things
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
I'm just posting in this part of the thread
… to have some steak in it.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
It is very misty here, I not sure what is going on.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
Relax, it's just some good-natured ribbing Al.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 16, 2011 11:57 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah - it should be "stinks of the past decade" anyway...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Carlos loses value in 2013 if the Cubs release him
He may get a shot to pitch somewhere else but the fact that a team would eat 18 million dollars would affect any future contracts.
If he makes it through the year with a 3.83 ERA with no issues then maybe other teams think he has been fixed.
Z wants to play for this team and wants to redeem himself before he leaves for free agency.
Like you said it’s only 1 year.
A good reminder
I have said I think it’s time for the Cubs to move on without Zambrano, but they can’t just do whatever they want, unless they want to release him.
I believe there is some chance that “earn your way back” means some specific therapy. For instance (and this is just a for instance, not trying to guess what actually happened), Z might have agreed to go through anger therapy before, but not to try medication. Praver might have told Epstein that Z recently sought out a psychiatrist and is now seeing how he pitches while adjusting to new medication. Epstein may have said that continuing on the medication is necessary, but there are also behavioral changes that must be made before and during Spring Training.
Now, on the more factual side, Zambrano has teen or preteen girls at home, and a relatively new adopted son. I’m quite sure his daughters and wife do not want to move at this time, or be left with dad living in another city for a season. If nothing else, he has pressure from home to try and make it with the Cubs for 2012, and in that desire I think he is sincere. From his side, this isn’t just posturing for a better trade situation. From the Cubs side, I hope it is.
...formerly known as zambranofan
Agree
It’s not like the Cubs are going to the WS next year. If Z stays in control and has a decent year, I’m cool with that. It’s not like the Cubs are loaded with SP, either. If he delivers 12-14 wins, I’ll take it. Dempster seems to be on the decline and the others are a kind of a crapshoot coming off injuries. Garza is pretty solid, so why not?
"IN THEO WE TRUST"
So apparently Z did not retire
I never saw any news on this. But the Cubs must have lost that fight over Z retiring in Atlanta.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
He later recanted.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I know he recanted - his agent made sure of that
And the Cubs still argued that he retired and I think it went before a mediator or MLB.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 15, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think that has been settled yet.
If anyone has any info to post that confirms or denies this, I’d like to see it.
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I think you have to file paperwork
to officially retire. I’m guessing his agent would’ve sent 4 or 5 300 lb. bohemoths to hold him back from doing so. And anyway, he probably changed his mind 10 minutes after walking out of the clubhouse.
I’m still not sure if he even broke any written team rules. I’d be surprised if the Cubs won any monetary claims on his suspension.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Nov 15, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
Suspended without pay
monetary claims?
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
exactly
if he didn’t break any team rules, how can you suspend him without pay? I would think an arbitrator would rule that he is owed his salary during the time he was suspended.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Nov 15, 2011 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
He may have broken a rule by walking out after his ejection
Zambrano was supended and from wiki – A player may be suspended by his club or the league for insubordination, misconduct, or failure to report in playing condition. A player on this lists counts both towards the Reserve List and the Active List limits.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 15, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
I doubt that "leaving the ballpark when ejected" counts.
And Hendry and the Cubs’ attempt to “honor his wishes” about retirement, based upon the fact that he’d “told the clubhouse guys and trainers that he was retiring”, is bush league.
It was, really, the final failure of the previous regime to exhibit any crisis management acumen whatsoever. The face of the org to the media on the issue was Mike Quade, for crying out loud.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Actually Hendry put Z on the Disqualified list
which is for “Players who violate their player contract.”. I’m sure the player contract has some standards of conduct that Z may have violated.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 15, 2011 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
He did...
…but I don’t think there was any question, the culture within the organization (which started with Hendry) helped allow the Z situation to get to the point it did.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
None of that matters
It’s just commentary or faux-disgust for Hendry or Quade. And it doesn’t resolve answer any questions going forward. They are both gone and you can’t get any more blood from them.
Here’s where we stand
1. Z was ejected, told club house personnel that he was retiring, and left the ballpark.
2. Z was placed on the Disqualified List and suspended without pay.
3. The MLBPA filed a grevience on Z’s behalf.
4. Z was paid for the last 2 weeks of the season. I think we was reinstated to the 40-man roster.
Questions:
1. Has that grevience been heard by an arbitrator?
2. Or could it have been quietly dropped as the new Cubs management told Z and his agent that he could get another shot in his walk-year?
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 15, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
It may just quietly go away
Since Z never filed any paperwork, the Cubs don’t have much to go on process-wise. And MLB and the union are about the complete their deal. I won’t be surprised if there is no meeting, arbitration, etc.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 15, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
MLBPA at work
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
The Cubs' argument was silly.
“you said it! No backsies!”
There are procedures that have to be followed w/r/t retiring.
And while I’m at it, the Atlanta 2011 “ejected/retiring” situation was blown so far out of proportion by the Cubs, and intentionally so. Theo will handle these situations more professionally.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Nov 15, 2011 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
my two cents
Sounds to me like he is building up his trade value
You have to be hard-nosed
The fact is you don’t win without better pitching than we have. And Ramirez’ attitude bothers me a whole lot more than Z’s. Z is a hot head, he loses it — but nobody can say he doesn’t care and put everything into it. Ramirez just can’t be bothered to run hard or cover his postion.
Having said that, as a lawyer, I don’t understand why they don’t put some of this stuff in their contracts — want to drag your feet? or curse out the umpire? it is going to cost you big time. Second best is a strong manager with support from ownership — and Epstein knows that. Its harder in baseball where players’ salaries dwarf managers’, but in any organization the difference between a manager who knows what he is doing (think LaRusso) and one who doesn’t or phones it in is magnified in the bottom line.
Zambrano is going to pitch for the Cubs this season
The most likely scenario is that Theo is taking a “this is a new administration” approach while telling Zambrano that he has exactly one chance left.
If Zambrano can hold it together, and actually pitch decently for the first half of the season, I would imagine Theo will do as much as he can to unload Z at the deadline. Theo is not a stupid person, he understands Zambrano’s value has never been lower. He was left with A TON of bad contracts. This view that he was just going to cut them all was silly.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 10:00 AM CST reply actions 6 recs
Really just 2 bad contracts
But not nearly enough good ones.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Nov 15, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
I'm putting Dempster in there as well.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
I just hope that Marmol's isn't on that list.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Maybe. But Demp's 2011 #'s
look a lot better with a manager who knows when to take him out. I would think that if that player option had been a team option, it may have been exercised, if for no other reason than there’s very little else available.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Nov 15, 2011 10:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Does it have to send this message?
Bringing him back, however, in my opinion, would go against the idea that Epstein is going to begin to change the culture of this organization. For too long, veteran players — not just Zambrano — have basically been able to do as they please, regardless of what it does to the team. Eating $18 million worth of contract cannot be an easy thing to do. But retaining Zambrano after all of these incidents would send the same message that Jim Hendry gave out when he gave Z all those last chances: it doesn’t matter what you do, we’ll take you back.
If Theo brings Z back AND Z behaves, can’t that send the message that Theo is eliminating the culture that vets can do as they please? Wouldn’t Z then be the poster boy the culture change?
OR
If Z blows up…again…how Theo handles that would be evidence of this.
Al, I’m going to use one of your favorite lines: we just don’t know. We don’t know what conditions Theo has placed upon a return, or the repercussions threatened if he does blow up.
by Arbusto on Nov 15, 2011 10:06 AM CST reply actions 8 recs
Basically the same thoughts that I have
The thought process that everyone seems to be looking at as far as leverage is concered is that Z is in the drivers seat. While this is true as far as contract and 5-10 rules are concerned it’s not neccesarily true when it comes to his motivations. Who knows what carrot or stick Epstein is weilding.
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
by carolinacub on Nov 15, 2011 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
What difference does it make? There's only one year left on his contract.
If we’re going to be talking about dumping a contract, it ought to be Soriano’s, since the Zambrano problem will work itself out by next year. Zambrano has no long-term future with the Cubs. The only question is whether he’s unloaded now, midway through next season, or after 2012. The worst case scenario is that they bring Zambrano back, he has another meltdown two or three months into the season, and they have to release him. If that happens, so what? A lot of people would like to release him already. In a way, it would be a great way for the new regime to make an example out of someone. At least you’d get a few months out of him if you bring him back. Zambrano at his worst is a league-average pitcher, and the $17 million is a sunk cost. Even a few months of league-average pitching would likely be more valuable than whatever low-level prospect we’d get for him right now. Theo isn’t going to make moves simply to mollify the fans or because of vague notions like “clubhouse culture.” What people should be more worried about is making sure that we go into spring training with at least 6 starters, because it obviously would be foolish to count on Zambrano to be in the rotation all year.
This is likely...
…a ruse to try to do anything to raise Zambrano’s value on the market and nothing more.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I just don't see that
How does it substantially raise his trade value? It doesn’t make his 2011 stats any better, or his risks any lower.
And Zambrano himself would be best served by a release – that way he gets to choose his team. Z could easily say “play me or release me” since a trade doesn’t really benefit him in any way.
Because it makes the Cubs look less desperate to deal him.
It provides the Cubs another option and, therefore, more leverage in negotiations.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
You really think the rest of the league is that gullible?
Zambrano is going to pitch for us. One statement that we’re not desperate to trade him doesn’t automatically raise his value
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's a matter of degree, Nunya.
Theo probably figures that it will help his case (even a little) if other teams know that he has a better relationship with Z and that he’s more willing to bring him back than Hendry would have been.
And, as I said, this also makes things better if Z does return. Z won’t spend the whole winter getting the silent treatment or (worse) getting trashed by the Cubs.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Correct...
…and although the rest of the league can probably figure this out, it is the wise choice, to at least make it apparent, they are willing to bring him back.
To address Wreckard, the Cubs aren’t going to release a guy they owe 18 mil to, it just won’t happen.
If there are absolutely no takers for Z (even if the Cubs are willing to eat a large chunk of his deal, it is possible they bring him to ST and hope he pitches well, to see if that changes his market value. Also, they may have to let him pitch a portion of the year, to do the same. They aren’t going to eat 18mil and just let him go.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I agree with that.
Again, though, eating 75% of the deal — I could see that.
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You have more of the depth in the campaign here
Building trade value for Z won’t happen from one statement. It will take a series of events, including some teams coming up dry in pursuit of FA pitchers. You don’t win a chess game with the first move.
Has Zambrano ever agreed to be traded?
I am asking an honest question here.
Trade is not an option unless he agrees to it. So the argument is do we play him, or do we eat his entire salary without compensation.
IIRC, he made a comment last year ...
that he’d be open to a trade if the Cubs wanted to move him. Of course, Z contradicts himself all the time …
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Yeah, he's kinda gone back and forth on it.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
TWSS
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
I have to believe even a man-child like him is smart enough to realize you can't nearly burn down your own house
and then refuse to move out of the smoking wreckage.
He would ONLY hurt his value if he constantly acted like a choad and then refused to be traded.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
Z doesn't seem to have the ability to do things (or not do things) to preserve his trade value.
Isn’t that sort of the point? Z has no control and can’t act in his own self interest.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Where, there's a bit of a difference between his behavior on the field and right after he's ejected
compared to what he says in the offseason.
Part of the thing that makes Z so annoying is that he acts like a giant child, and then says all the right things later on.
I’m not even talking about trade value, I’m talking about VALUE. He can’t really think (because his agent is surely telling him) that burning his bridges here in Chicago, and then REFUSING to allow the Cubs to trade him, isn’t going to be real attractive to other teams.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
Have you seen the NBA news lately?
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
by RiskyBusiness on Nov 15, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
I have no problem with this news
Z requested the meeting. He showed interest in returning. To be fair, I think Epstein should give him a last chance under new management. We know Z is crazy but his issues with the team were with guys like Hendry. If anything, Z will rebound, have a good season and either help Cubs in post-season or becomes trade bait in July?
I see no downside in this if Zambrano wants to come back.
i dont think Z's issues were with Hendry...
i think they were with Quade, who had issues with Garza and Dempster. yes, Garza and Dempster dont have the emotional wreckage that Z has, but it explains a little more how inept management frustrated Z. it does not explain the Chipper incident, but it explains the “what manager” comment.
So i you can give you can take it.
While you're right that Zambrano ...
probably had more of an issue with Quade than Hendry, he didn’t behave better under the previous two managers (both of whom were successful big-league managers) or for nine years under one of the game’s best pitching coaches.
I understand the distinction you’re drawing. But let’s not write off Z’s issues as the result of a rift with Mike Quade.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
honestly asking here
what was his beef with Lou? the only incidents i can remember are from Lee and Barrett…and both were under lou, and i never heard anything between him and Rothschild.
So i you can give you can take it.
It wasn't necessarily a beef with Lou.
It’s more that Lou couldn’t handle him. Remember Z’s outburst on the South Side in 2010?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I'm sure Z had NO beef with Hendry
… considering Hendry was the one who kept enabling this behavior.
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and he had no beef with Dusty or rothschild right?
so its one old manager who lost focus and one young(ish) manager who had no idea….
So i you can give you can take it.
But nobody could keep him from exploding.
Not Lou, Dusty, Rothschild or Quade.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
The team winning will stop it
but by the time this team is winning his contract will be over and he will be retired. If he retires after this contract like he said he would.
by lshaffer_69 on Nov 15, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
I know - How could Quade fail to control an MLB dugout?
Seriously, though, I find it hard to come down too hard on Z for the 2010 incident.
They’d just put him in the freaking bullpen for absolutely no reason.
And then, while the team “leaders” sleepwalked through another season, Z goes too far in calling them out for lack of effort (f’ing DIVE!) – which, BTW, TOTALLY wakes DLee up – (that’s BS! That’s BS!) – that scenario happens.
Hendry should have taken the mike that night and said “This team is underperforming. No one is happy about it. We didn’t deal with this poor performance very well today, and we’ve had a closed-door team meeting about it. There will be no further comment.”
Instead, he decided to poke the grizzly bear again. And to burn down the house he was trying to sell.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
The 2010 incident was not the worst of Z's transgressions.
But it also wasn’t Z’s only transgression.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
And the 2011 transgression was really more of a whimper.
Get rocked, throw in the vicinity of Chipper twice, get ejected, pout and leave.
If any player other than Z had done the “tell the trainer I’m retiring and leave” routine, we literally never would have heard about it.
It’s crybaby stuff, but it’s hardly a rational basis for the all-out go to the mattresses war that it inspired last year. I think that it had more to do with the prior incidents, the obviously very poor relationship between Z and the staff and front office, and the fact that the team was playing just horrifically.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
My guesstimate of the situation is that...
…it’s either the Zambrano or the Soriano contract that the Cubs are willing to eat the majority of. To eat both would be upwards of $30M. Plus the FO has put pitching and defense as top priorities. Theo will probably trade Soriano over the winter. And perhaps Maddux does think he (figuratively) can “burp” Big Z – LOL.
I enjoy this website because it's so interesting to see folks pole vaulting over mouse turds.
to eat both would be close to
$75 mil. Z = 18 mil. Soriano = (18×3) 54 mil.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Nov 15, 2011 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
You're right
I was thinking next year only, which the team cannot do.
I enjoy this website because it's so interesting to see folks pole vaulting over mouse turds.
by BAMACOLONEL on Nov 15, 2011 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
By all means, give him a chance to either improve his trade value, or reclaim a spot in the rotation...
It’s a pity that sports media will jump at any opportunity to provoke Z, e.g., milking Zambrano’s bat-snapping show in Pittsburgh for several days to speculate on whether Z’s wheels were coming off with this supposed show of disrespect for Quade.
The same thing happened with Zambrano’s candid “triple A” comment, which was treated by some fans and media as a sure sign that Z needed more counseling. Sure, he’s being paid like an ace when he’s really only a number 3 or 4 starter, even on the Cubs. But the fact remains any team can get decent production out of him if he’s used in this more limited role. Here’s hoping the Cubs get 200IP and a 15-12 record out of him in 2012.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
We will see.
Lets play this out. New sheriffs in town, Hendry is done. I truly believe if Z can’t perform under the Theo watch, then the only place he can go is Miami.
I also think the new manager will have a piece in this as well. So let him come into spring training, apologize for the 125th time and see if Z can act like a 31 year old should. I am not holding my breath on any of this, but the Cubs options are limited.
Even if Big Z throws a temper this year
he will not be the problem for this team on the field. The only problem that he causes is his contract. Big Z throws a baby fit when the cubs are a losing team. His fits dont really occur when they are winning. He is not the problem. With all of that said we try to trade him and if we can then we play him this year and say goodbye after his contract is up.
I didn't.
I was just hoping he wouldn’t make the same type of decision that Hendry kept making.
It doesn’t appear that he will, fortunately.
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It's still sort of amazing to me the speed and veracity with which you've turned on Hendry.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
It's a matter of examining his entire body of work.
The culmination of which was the hiring of Mike Quade, which turned out to be the worst kind of buddy-hire, which led to the complete breakdown of clubhouse discipline and accountability.
Yes, I know what you are going to say. It should have been obvious to me long before that. Maybe so. However, the good thing is that we are all on the same page.
Note again, I was NOT comparing Theo’s actions to Hendry’s. I just don’t want him going down that path. I’m sure you’ll agree with that.
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I'm sorry, but unless you were simply refusing to examine his entire body of work until the day he was fired
then this excuse holds little water. You were still a giant defender of Hendry’s last year.
And as usual Al, the point isn’t really that you changed your mind (at least to me) it’s that while you were vociferously defending Hendry until just a few months ago, you did so most of the time by taking a tact that those of us who weren’t happy with him were complaining just to complain, that we were taking a “the Cubs can’t do anything right” approach. Now….suddenly, you’re willing to concede there are a great many things the man did horrendously.
THAT’S why it’s strange to see this turnaround.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Can we please stop with the "Al can't do anything right" posts?
It’s annoying.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
try and go a day without posting TWSS
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
you're not the boss of me
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
You live in SD right??
I am going to be working for a company this season that’ll pay me to score Padre games from home. Not a lot of money.
Hoping to graduate from that one day to score at the stadium
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
...
Hoping to graduate from that one day to score at the stadium
That reminds me of this video I saw on the internet once….
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
Can you simply accept that I changed my mind?
You know, sometimes people do.
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I KNOW you changed your mind.
Again, the speed and veracity with which you did so is interesting.
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
Gonna take years for Theo to earn that putrid comparison.
Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!
by shoemile on Nov 15, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Next time Z blows up
lets swap out the gatorade cooler for Jerry Sandusky
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
by Hammer on Nov 15, 2011 12:02 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
too soon.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
you're right
Z still may be traded
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
Occupy Gatoraid?
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Too soon???
Sandusky needs to be thrown in the exercise yard of a Federal Penitentiary naked during free time. I thought the idea of Big Z bashing him with a bat was the easy way out.
"The standard is the standard" Mike Tomlin
If Theo...
keeps Zambrano (and thus chooses NOT to waste 18 million dollars) then he’s Jim Hendry? What a stupid notion.
by kanderber on Nov 15, 2011 12:50 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Your point only holds water if Zambrano actually pretends to be sane enough to pitch for the Cubs in 2012...
also he needs to not be terrible when he does pitch…and then yeah, it won’t be a waste of 18 million dollars.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
On the bright side
It’s not like Epstein hasn’t had to deal with headcases in the past. I’d like to believe that Manny has just as bad if not worse behavior than Zambrano…
And he got rid of Manny when Manny quit on the team.
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Well, it was just Manny being Manny.
Author at Acme Packing Company, SB Nation's Green Bay Packers blog.
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 15, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
Right, so what makes you so worried about this situation that you compared him to Hendry?
When his own track record shows he will handle it very differently
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Again, I did NOT compare him to Hendry.
I don’t want him going down that road. I hope he continues that track record. That’s my point.
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After navigating 5 years of absolutely crazy behavior, right?
Manny actually faked an injury in order to force a trade. When it came to that, sure. Plus, it was 2008, and it was the end of his contract, essentially.
But back in ‘03-’04, the situation took a little bit of a lighter touch.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Look.............
This is a smart move by Theo. Available starting pitching is not that great, whether you look at the free agents available or the in house candidates. If we go with a Maholm or other type of pitcher, it costs the Cubs MORE money and we have plenty of other holes to fill other than SP.
Our starting rotation appears to be Garza, Dempster, Wells, and perhaps Cashner. That leaves 1-2 spots to fill. I’d personally prefer taking a shot at Z over Coleman, Russell, etc.
Trading Z now is foolish. We will get next to nothing for him, and will have to eat the entire contract. A few low level minor leaguers will not fill our starting pitching gap nor will they likely develop into anything worthwhile. The price of Z has been set by KC as well as the Marlins (outright refusal to take him on).
Theo has given pretty good indications that they’re not going to put up with anything from Zambrano with statements like “trust and verify” and “he’s going to have to EARN his way back as a Cub.” Just because people on this board are all anxious and disapprove of the way Hendry handled things shouldn’t translate to how it appears as though Theo is going to handle it. By making these statements (and hopefully enforcing them), he’s ALREADY changing the culture of this team.
At this point, Z can pitch for the Cubs and fill another starter’s role at no additional cost to the Cubs if he earns his way back. If he doesn’t Theo will likely do whatever he can within the context of the rules of the MLB, or just release him. We may get lucky with a trade partner, but that is highly unlikely.
So, how about we put some faith in the new regime and trust that they know what they’re doing, and that they’re clearly NOT handling this situation like Hendry et. al?
by jballgame on Nov 15, 2011 12:57 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Completely Disagree, Keeping him does change the culture.
Big Z is much more valuable to the product on the field than if he was cut. He’s a league average pitcher, and should earn about half his salary. If he’s cut, Cubs lose the full $19M, plus whatever a replacement pitcher could cost. That’s a difference of losing $9.5M or closer to $25M.
The encouraging thing is...
I’m almost 100% certain our front office understands this concept….for a change.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 1:07 PM CST up reply actions
I'll grant you that.
I just hope Theo makes the right call — whatever that turns out to be.
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but there's another debate...
is theo’s decision no matter what, the right call? or if Theo eats 80% of the contract and Z does finish fourth in Cy young voting, was that right? Or if Theo allows Z to come back to the Cubs and pitch and he does well but then we see a chipper pt 2, was it right?
Good luck Theo!
So i you can give you can take it.
That's why you hire a good manager
A good field staff should be able to handle the vast personalities on a team. Big Z is going to have some good outings, some bad outings, and probably some outbursts. That’s who he is. As long as he’s being a productive part, overall, to the product on the field, then keeping him is the right decision. It’s the managers job to make sure he doesn’t affect the whole team.
If the Cubs...
had a plethora of starting pitching then it might make sense to dump Zambrano. But the Cubs, as of now, have three starting pitchers for next year (Garza, Dempster and Wells). Carlos Zambrano has been an above average pitcher (read: a #1 or #2 starter) every single year of his professional career up until the 2011 season. This isn’t a kindergarten classroom… the Cubs are the business of winning baseball games, not punishing people who do bad things.
I don’t think there’s any question that Carlos Zambrano gives the Cubs a better chance at winning games as the 4th member of their rotation than whoever would replace him would.
So when you consider that A) Zambrano is a great option from a talent perspective and B) he’s owed a shitload of money and the Cubs are a for-profit organization, you HAVE to bring him back.
Bottom line, if Theo wants to create a winning culture then he’ll keep a very talented pitcher rather than paying 18 million dollars to have him go away.
by kanderber on Nov 15, 2011 1:07 PM CST reply actions 7 recs
A No. 1-2 starter every single year of his professional career?
Baloney.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
That's just not true.
He hasn’t been a No. 1-2 starter since mid-2008, other than a string of good starts at the end of 2010 (playing in low-pressure games against teams with expanded rosters).
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
As well as a No. 1-2 starter?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I agree. He hasn't pitched 200 innings since 2007.
Greg Maddux has emphasized this many times. One of the most important attributes of a top of the rotation guy is taking the ball every fifth day and giving your team a chance to win.
Agreed.
He hasn’t been at a No. 1 or No. 2 level for the last two seasons at the very least. Otherwise, I agree with kanderman’s post for the most part. (I’d still explore trades as much as possible.)
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Defining exactly what a 1 - 2 starter is a nebulous argument
But with the exception of 2011, Z has been a well above average starter his entire career as evidenced by ERA+.
Well...
When you define it as your 1 and 2 starters being above average, your 3 starter being average, and your 4 and 5 starters being below average… then yes, he has absolutely been a 1-2 starter every year of his professional career (aside from 2011). The point was, however, that he has unarguably been an above average pitcher for 90% of his career. So I’d say that he’s likely to be above average again this year. I’m sure you’d agree that the Cubs could use an above average starter.
That's a pretty strange way to define No. 1-2 starters.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Not really.
It’s a pretty simple way of looking at things, for sure, but you continue to miss the overall point… which is that Zambrano has unarguably been above average the vast majority of his career.
No, I get that you're trying to make that point.
But you’re oversimplifying how good he’s actually been.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Yeah, that is a little odd.
Do you mean “league average” or just “average” (by some other standard)?
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
the green is well deserved sir
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
On this, I agree.
I want Z gone, but I can’t really see Epstein eating $18 million just to send Z away.
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State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 15, 2011 9:19 PM CST up reply actions
At this point is there anyone on this site who doesn't know exactly how this...
…will play out? Z will come to training camp…say all of the right things…promise that he’s a different guy than before and blah…blah…blah….
While I can’t say that I’m not a little bit disappointed in Theo taking him back, I understand that the 18 million he’s owed this year isn’t exactly monopoly money and not all that easy to just flush down the toilet (especially considering the fact that only the most blindly optimistic among us expects much of an improvement in less than one year).
So one more year of Crazy Carlos and then we can finally all get on with our lives.
I will trust Theo on this
but if Z shits all over this team again Theo should be put into a confined area with HWSNBN for 3 hours.
Heh.
15 minutes of that would be enough. 3 hours… ouch.
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TWSS
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
TWSS
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
you are repeating yourslef a lot today
despite what your tag line says
by El Borto on Nov 15, 2011 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, we had 3 hours of him in the bleachers for that Yankees game last June.
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State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 15, 2011 9:19 PM CST up reply actions
WooWoo Dome, the movie...
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:34 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Tough situation all around.
I’m in the camp of keep him until you get a decent offer (whether that be now, the trade deadline, or sometime in between) and then dump his ass.
Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!
BIG Z
look this is not such a bad move a lot of his bs comes from his desire to win only one year left and if your looking at 2012 you know it is pretty much a throw away year; after next year you got him charlie choker dempster(watch what you say all the cubbiewubbies will come to his defense and tell you what a nice guy he is) off the books > the only objection i have is if they dont try to dump him and dempster at the all star break next year or if they start looking at retread veterans for more than one or two year contracts. the plan should be to rebuild first with young players then spend your free agent money to fill in the blanks only four or five players from last year worth keeping. in closing their isnt another retarded mgr like quade who would have left him in to take a beating like he took in atlanta; and then to apologise to the braves because it was chipper on bobby cox night please pass me the vomit bag outta here.
by notcubbiewubbie on Nov 15, 2011 2:07 PM CST reply actions
It's like he was commited to the caps in his subject line
and then said to hell with it after that.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Nov 15, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
It's Eric Hanna in reverse.
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State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 15, 2011 9:21 PM CST up reply actions
uhh... yea...
"Chicago, My Kind Of Town"
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2009 & 2011 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
"Terry's down, oh my! Van Persie all by himself now, around Cech, and that'll do it!"
cool story notcubbiewubbie
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
cool story notcubbiewubbie
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
What's going on?
Author at Acme Packing Company, SB Nation's Green Bay Packers blog.
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 15, 2011 9:20 PM CST up reply actions
What's going on?
Author at Acme Packing Company, SB Nation's Green Bay Packers blog.
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 15, 2011 9:20 PM CST up reply actions
Is there any reason you keep double posting?
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I see what you did there.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
This is a test. This is only a test.
For the next sixty seconds, I am only posting one reply in this double sub-thread. Methinks it’s gonna appear twice though…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Is there any reason you keep double posting?
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I see what you did there.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
This is a test. This is only a test.
For the next sixty seconds, I am only posting one reply in this double sub-thread. Methinks it’s gonna appear twice though…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I think I'm freaking out man
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Nov 15, 2011 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
So So am am I I So So am am I I
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
...

Author at Acme Packing Company, SB Nation's Green Bay Packers blog.
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 15, 2011 9:21 PM CST up reply actions
Here's how Theo is not Hendry:
Over the last two winters, Jim Hendry made it public that he had cancerous players to unload in Milton Bradley and Carlos Silva, thereby tying his own hands on his ability to make a deal that was good for the team.
A smart front office guy telegraphs nothing to the other 29 teams. And furthermore, any good boss in any business situation does not make an employee feel unwelcome or unwanted until it is certain that that person can be let go, or in this case traded.
Whatever Theo has been saying in public about this right now is perfectly appropriate, and sound from a business perspective.
-- Jerome Horwitz
by KO Stradivarius on Nov 15, 2011 2:10 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
I say trade him instead of giving him the cut and eating the contract
You might as well get something out of it if your going to end up paying a part of the year long that’s left. If we put him on the trading block now though, do you think we’ll get as good a deal now than we will around oh say, deadline time when teams on the edge of the playoffs (maybe ourselves, who knows) will be more desperate to bring in someone like Z? I guess it depends on how well he plays during the year, that is if we keep him for that long, but until then… might as well hold onto him and get something out of it rather than just cutting him loose for everybody to go after and get nothing out of it other than a bit cleaner clubhouse.
"Chicago, My Kind Of Town"
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2009 & 2011 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
"Terry's down, oh my! Van Persie all by himself now, around Cech, and that'll do it!"
maybe a Z for Cliff lee Trade?
would that get us value? I mean the Phillies want the Cubs to win, right?
So i you can give you can take it.
Bargain of the century right there
"Chicago, My Kind Of Town"
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2009 & 2011 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
"Terry's down, oh my! Van Persie all by himself now, around Cech, and that'll do it!"
Hello Bleed Cubbie Blue community!
Few questions (hopefully Al chimes in as well)
1. How many years/$ left on Zambrano’s contract?
2. How much would the Cubs realistically want for him?
3. Do you ever think he will change out of being a clubhouse killer?
4. What do you expect from him this season?
5. How eager are you to get rid of him? How eager do you think the Cubs are?
Answer as many as you like, answers are much appreciated.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
This should have been a FanShot.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
What type? I was going to just email these questions to Al, but figured the community might want to say some things as well. Doesn’t really fit into any of the types of fanshots I think.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
My advice would be...
to follow this example….use that as a basic template and you’ll be sure to succeed as a poster here.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
What is your problem?
The guy asked relevant questions in this thread.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
answers!!!
1. 1/18 Million with an option if he finishes 4th in Cy young and healthy
2. 18 million dollars.
3. no. maybe.
4. have you attempted to read any of the comments here?
5. have you attempted to read any of the comments here?
So i you can give you can take it.
Your answer to #4
Average at best, with a few punches thrown here and there…
"Chicago, My Kind Of Town"
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2009 & 2011 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
"Terry's down, oh my! Van Persie all by himself now, around Cech, and that'll do it!"
Re: Question No. 2
I’d guess around $5 million worth of salary relief and a lower level prospect might get the job done. Maybe $7 to $8 million would save the prospect. It all depends on whether and just how much Theo & Jed really do value Z’s pitching ability.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Um, I think the question ...
is how much other teams value Z’s pitching ability/want to deal with the likely melt down.
And, really, other than the mealy-mouthed response from the Royals — and the interest in the Marlins that seems to have passed — where is there any evidence that Z could bring the Cubs anything in return? Or, rather, anything close to what you’re suggesting?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Hey, I said it was a guess.
There’s been no evidence (that I know of) of what the Cubs are asking or what other teams are proposing. But how could there be? Details like that are never made public until after a deal is struck (if ever). I’m just guessing that Theo & Jed would suggest that Z is worth, at minimum, about one WAR, which Fangraphs still estimates as around $5 million. And we’re all assuming they’re trying to trade him, but maybe Theo & Jed really are so concerned about the state of the team’s rotation that they value Z’s ability to pitch more than the risk of him melting down again.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Well, you were basing the guess on something -- which I didn't get initially.
I’m just guessing that Theo & Jed would suggest that Z is worth, at minimum, about one WAR, which Fangraphs still estimates as around $5 million.
That’s a reasonable argument.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Answer as many as you like, answers are much appreciated.
WAR is the best. Statistics rule. Blue Mike sucks.
Those are my answers.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
God, it's nice to be talking about meaningful Cubs baseball issues around the old hot stove...

There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion? (Now #8452 in the Cubs Season Ticket Wait List...)
Oh, and do you think Rothschild could fix Zambrano? I personally don’t have interest in the idea of Zambrano to the Yankees, but I worry Cashman might, so I’m looking into the idea.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
I don't see Z approving a trade to the AL.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Interesting, didn’t think of that possibility. Why not?
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
That’s a funny reason, but it makes sense considering it is Zambrano.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball."
"Every day is a great day for hockey."
Z loves his at bats
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Z loves his at bats
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Z loves his at bats
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Z loves his at bats
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Upps... Mobile posting adventure...
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:42 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
HAHAHAHAHA
I have never seen a quintuple post.
You just put all the guys above to shame!
Author at Acme Packing Company, SB Nation's Green Bay Packers blog.
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Nov 15, 2011 9:22 PM CST up reply actions
you
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
Performance art TJ spreads….. Is TJ
Performance art spreads….. Is art spreads….. Is TJ contagious??
spreads….. Is TJ art spreads….. Is TJ
Performance art spreads….. Is contagious?? Performance art TJ contagious??
Performance spreads….. Is TJ contagious?? Performance spreads….. Is
Performance art spreads….. Is TJ contagious?? Performance TJ contagious??
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
My love for TJ is so great,
my heart melts for him ‘til the dusk of day.
The night performs when him’s away,
continues, create ‘til day’s dawn.
His beauty is great,
Wondering mind ’til him sees,
performing is all I admire,
While waiting for the moment, for him to say “fire.”
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
Z loves his at bats
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I bet he would if it was to NY or Boston
"Chicago, My Kind Of Town"
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2009 & 2011 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
"Terry's down, oh my! Van Persie all by himself now, around Cech, and that'll do it!"
Has Zambrano ever actually said he would never play in the American League?
I get that he wants to hit, but I think Al is blowing his love of hitting out of proportion
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
not many pitchers break bats over their knees when they get out...
but it may not be that big of a deal to Z but, i think it factors in somewhere…
So i you can give you can take it.
I don't think being angry about a failed at-bat = I'll never play in the American League
by Nunyabidness on Nov 15, 2011 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
Does it matter?
As long as their winning and making the playoffs, I bet he could care less
"Chicago, My Kind Of Town"
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2009 & 2011 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
"Terry's down, oh my! Van Persie all by himself now, around Cech, and that'll do it!"
Well, Rothschild couldn't prevent Z from melting down...
…when he was the Cubs pitching coach. So he probably can’t fix him from that perspective. He is certainly familiar with Z’s mechanics and stuff, though, so he might be able to get the most out of him.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
I, like many of you, said we trust Theo.
Well, I will do just that. I have said I wanted Z gone. But maybe we are too close to the situation. Maybe we let our emotions affect our better judgement. Maybe Theo and Jed are able to evaluate what’s best for the Cubs leaving emotions out of it. I think I’ll just trust them to do the right thing.
Theo had two options
Either reinforce the opinion that Z will never set foot on the field in a Cubs uniform or try to put the organization in the position of minimizing the loss. Smart and winning teams take pragmatic approaches. I’m confidant Epstein is wise enough to not burn bridges in this case.
I’m willing to trust Theo is doing the best he and his staff agree will put lipstick on this pig.
If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.
by tharr on Nov 15, 2011 2:46 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Come on, it's only ONE more year!
"Hey-Hey! Home Run! Attaboy Ronnie!" ~ Jack Brickhouse
Dat's what I'm sayin'.
(Assuming he can’t be traded.)
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
If you amend that to ...
and I’ll take Chone Figgins, then I agree with you.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I'm afraid I still reject that amendment out of hand.
I don’t want a bad contract swap, just some salary relief and, if possible, a (as Al likes to say) face-saving prospect.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Moving $9 million to 2013 would help things.
But I know we’re not going to agree here.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Yeah, agree to disagree.
That just strikes me as a Hendry-esque move.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
I don't think Figgins would be a terrible pickup, as long as his defense is still good.
If he doesn’t warrant a starting job, he becomes the team’s supersub. If he can hold down a starting job, we add a lefty bat and fill the hole at third without having to spend anything else.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
what if you guys re-framed your arguments to include the "replacement player" involved?
Assuming we’re talking about just Z vs Figgy here…
So when daver says he’d rather roll with Z, what he really means is he’d rather roll with Z + Baker/DLM platoon (for example).
And elgato rolls with Figgy, he’s really saying Figgy plus Coleman (poor example, I know).
So each of you come up with a realistic combo and then present your case.
::grabs popcorn::
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
We just view the risks differently.
Daver thinks the Cubs would be best served gambling that Z (who still has the ability to be at least a No. 3 pitcher) won’t blow up until at least mid-2012. If that happens, it means the Cubs get some value out of him before they either trade him to a contender or dump him when he does melt down (with half or less of the contract left). Daver also thinks Figgins is very bad at baseball.
I have no interest in trying to correctly time the explosion that is all but inevitable with Zambrano. I’d rather gamble that Figgins could play better if given a change of scenery, fill the void at third (as a potentially valuable switch hitter), be a supersub if he doesn’t hit well enough to start and move some of the money that would be going to Zambrano to 2013 — potentially freeing up cash for a Grady Sizemore.
If the Cubs think that Figgins can’t hack it defensively at third, then I’d stop supporting this (completely speculative) trade.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
That's generally how I feel...
…though I never stated that I think Figgins is “very bad at baseball.” I think he’s a speed-based player who appears to be declining very quickly and on the wrong side of the aging curve and I’d rather not have to deal with trying to find him playing time. And for a team that needs starting pitchers, it just doesn’t feel right to trade away one for that — even with Z’s behavioral issues.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
I was kind of being glib for effect.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
My issue with a Figgins deal is that it reduces flexibility in 2013
And as speculative as Figgins’ value for 2012 may be, he really seems like a long shot for 2013. I think it may be better for the team to take whatever medicine is needed with Z for 2012 (play him, trade him, cut him, whatever), then be done with contract and then start 2013 with that much less overhang.
According to Cotts, the only players on the books for 2013 is Marmol and Soriano for $28.8MM.
I can’t see 9MM hamstringing the Cubs that much at that point. Especially if the payroll is estimated to be 125-135MM.
Everybody else is either ARB or FA.
Garza will be ARB 4,
Soto will be ARB 3,
Wells will be ARB 2,
DeWitt will be ARB 2 (Likely non-tendered),
Montanez will be ARB 1 (Likely non-tendered),
Castro will be ARB 1,
Colvin will be ARB 1 (Likely non-tendered),
Cashner will be ARB 1,
Russell will be ARB 1.
I just don’t see how they will be hurting for cash at all come 2013 as long as they don’t go overboard with stupid signings for FA this offseason.
I really don't see a deal like this even going down...
unless the Cubs pay all of Z’s 2012 salary and the Mariners pay all of Figgin’s salary. I don’t see Seattle taking 9MM more for 2012 at all. If it was done this way, then everything is a wash then, right? Cubs wouldn’t be paying for him in 2013 and only paying 18MM for Z in 2012 to play for Seattle.
Why would the teams do that?
I understand that this deal is totally speculative — but why would you speculate in that direction (re: the salaries)?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I know it's speculative, but if this deal went down, do you think Seattle would just take on 9MM for 2012?
I don’t, that is why I think if it went down, the only way to do it is for the Cubs to pay for Z’s balance in 2012, and Seattle to pay the balance in 2013. It’s still a wash money wise in overall total, but it allows Seattle to still add to their team in 2012 using funds from the Cubs. The money is still the same overall, just shifted around. Think of it like Pena’s 2011 contract. Half up front, half after the fiscal year, but still on the overall books.
Because it means you don't have to spend $18 million ...
on the emotional volcano that is Carlos Zambrano — and it potentially fills the void at third.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
As D98 mentioned the other day ...
if you’re really concerned about that, pay Figgins his whole contract in 2012 (I doubt he’d complain). You still save $1 million in the deal.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Looking at Figgins' recent performance, I would rather try Zambrano at 3B
His BA and OPS are much higher and since he won’t run he won’t be a CS machine.
Seriously, when you look at Figgin’s recent performance arc, he is done, done, done. Speed was all he ever had and that is gone. The Cubs would save the $1M and get a negative WAR player in return. I’d rather see them try to get some value from having Zambrano pitch or eating 80% of his salary to move him.
Well, my case is the Cubs need starting pitching...
…so if they can’t find a reasonable deal to trade Z, they might as well use him, get as much value as they can and not get tangled up for two seasons in a bad contract swap . As far as third base goes…yeah, there’s no easy answers there. I guess I’d lean toward a Baker/Flaherty platoon at the moment unless the team really believes in DJ in which case maybe they could give him a full-season tryout similar to what the White Sox gave Brent Morel last year. I’d look into a Chase Headley trade, too. But I’m not getting my hopes up there.
Baseball is pitching, offensive production, baserunning and defense.
Getting Figgins doesn't necessarily mean we couldn't get Headley later in the offseason.
Given the salary situation, it might actually make it easier.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
New manager, Please Don't Be Mike Quade
Yeah, I know there should be an apostrophe in "Vails," but punctuation wasn't an option when I signed up.
by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Nov 15, 2011 3:53 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I laughed...but then I serious'd when I thought about it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 15, 2011 3:55 PM CST up reply actions
Mister Zambrano, take two Quaaludes, and call your agent in the morning.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid. I'm a Sheeple and proud of it!
Spelling and grammar errors are included for creative and artistic reasons.
by eths on Nov 15, 2011 5:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I can't believe Theo hasn't checked the interest in Z already and found it close to zero.
What the hell else is there to do but dump some wood chips in the transmission, slap a cheap coat of paint on and hang a cardboard sign on him reading “Cream Puff”?
18M is always a compelling reason to have faith in human nature, ain't it ...
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Well put.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
It's just a business transaction. The beancounters must be appeased.
Plumbing the Soriano Abyssal is their next venture, where no Cubs front office man has gone before.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
If I had to play for that pathetic excuse for a team,
and their management, I would have probably blown up also. His upside of talent combined with the lack of pitching available and how much we owe him is worth taking a shot to come back and see if he can take his passion for the game and use it for good to maybe try and help lead this culture of change. If not, get rid of him. Seems pretty simple.
Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser. --Vince Lombardi
You do bring up a good point
We are all collectively as happy or unhappy as the cubs performance merits. Had they won an extra game a week up to that point, this conversation would be nonexistent.
Bigger picture is so much more convoluted than simply decrying zambrano outright.
A good manager would help Z
It was a bad thing what Z did last year but really why did Quade leave Z in that game to get pounded by Atlanta.
3 Homeruns and 4 homeruns wasn’t enough to yank him. He did the same with Dempster. Quade was just asking for a blow up by letting Z give up 5 home runs. Not to mention the lack of mound visits from our pitching coach.
Lou? Dusty?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
specifically last year
Could of avoided the incident if Quade would actually pull a starter.
The point is ...
Z hasn’t exactly behaved under well-respected managers in the pre-Quade days.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
that would have just delayed the inevitable
THEOOOOOOOOO (and Hoyer)
by jesus christos on Nov 15, 2011 7:10 PM CST up reply actions
One thing I will never do
Is make an excuse for Zambrano’s behavior. I’ve accepted he is out of control but at the same time if Theo wants to make amends and Zambrano also does, I think it’s the right call. A focused Zambrano will help more than hurt the Cubs in 2012.
Al's usually pretty rational
But not apparently not about Zambrano. Big Z is a completely unmarketable commodity at the moment, especially with his no-trade contract. Why eat $18 million if he can still pitch? To change “the culture?” Come on. Who cares what “the culture” is if you have a AAA pitching rotation? Even with Garza, Demp, Z, and Wells, we’re scrambling for someone else to fill it out.
It’s far from clear that Z can no longer be an effective starter in the National League. Sure, he’s not worth anything close to $18 million. But that’s a sunk cost. A decent replacement would cost nearly half that, and the available free-agent pitchers aren’t promising or economical. Given all the other holes this team needs to plug, I think it only makes sense to give the ball to Z in Mesa and see if he can pitch his way into the rotation, Nice positioning, Theo! I might become a fan of yours.
The Almighty Contract Rules
The best part of this is that it’s the last year of his contract. I don’t think that Theo and Jed will try to trade him during this off season, but the positive PR is a good idea in case a trade makes sense during the season.
Z should have an easier time with field management and front office people who haven’t actually experienced anything that happened with him in the past. In the end it will be about how he pitches and anything else that causes or prevents him from being under pressure.
I think Theo is putting
the initial brushstrokes on a 2012 Cubs World Series Championship!
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Nov 15, 2011 11:01 PM CST reply actions
I’m not denying that Z is a lunatic,
but honestly, who here could stomach two years of Quade? It’d be like having the dorkiest water boy suddenly getting named your manager.
My favorite quote of the year came when Z was asked a question about the manager not being fond of him breaking bats over his leg, and he answered, "What manager?"
Window dressing and nothing more
He’s doing – on the surface – what many baseball minds thinks he should be doing.
Theo and Jed will take their time and evaluate the whole roster closely. At some time likely before the start of ST, Z will be moved.
Ricketts took that big 1st step I was praying he’d take: Hire the baseball “CEO”. Step 1: Check. Then their front office is filled out. Step 2: Check. Theo is determined to change the culture. Step 3: In progress. Rami is not coming back + there are other guys that will not be back. Next is Z. Only in this case, it’ll take some time if the Cubs hope to save anything notable of that $18M owed.
Just win the next game...!
Calm down guys, and have trust in the new front office.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Re: Z and the new manager
Maybe the simulated game situations given to the managerial candidates included Z beating up the Gatorade cooler and taking a swing at Darwin Barney…
In which case Mike Maddux said he would go out grab him and burp him?
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Nov 16, 2011 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure how much trade value can be build up for Z
Obviously talking nicely about him now and of course inviting him to spring training might help w/o costing a single buck.
However letting him pitch half a season, I don’t see it.
The Cubs will have already paid half of the 18 million by then and it’s more than unlikely that anyone would pick up more than half of the remainder, no matter how good he’s pitching.
Moneywise, I doubt this would be better than trying to buy him out or trying to shop him aggressively, i.e. by eating 80% of his contract.
However, I don’t think that letting him ptich again for the Cubs is neccessarily wrong, but then it would be to get some performance for money, not really to build up value. If it turns out it’s unpossible to unload his conrtact even when eating 75% or more, I gues “giving him one more chance” is the only viable option.
by DamageControlFreak on Nov 16, 2011 9:38 AM CST reply actions
I want him gone, but I think you're being too harsh on this point:
The Cubs will have already paid half of the 18 million by then and it’s more than unlikely that anyone would pick up more than half of the remainder, no matter how good he’s pitching.
$9 million on a 3-month rental isn’t really that bad IF Zambrano has pitched well and hasn’t melted down by July. Boston or New York might be in need of pitching reinforcements in the second half.
The issue here isn’t possible demand — it’s Zambrano’s ability to make it through those three months. Somebody will point out that he didn’t melt down until August in 2011, but trying to time Zambrano’s emotional outbursts just seems foolhardy to me.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
There are a multitude of factors Theo has to consider.
The fact is that Theo has inherited a player with some of the characteristics he is looking for in his players—primarily a strong drive to compete and win. Unfortunately, this same player comes with an unstable emotional make-up and at least $18M attached to him. This is a mess created by the prior regime, which Theo has no choice but to deal with in some way for the next year. (And the talk of Z’s 2013 option vesting is a pipe dream. Even if he pitches and has a career year, are the folks who vote on the Cy Young likely to place them high on their list of candidates? I doubt it, given all of the other competition in the league. I could be wrong, but that’s just my gut feeling about it.) Theo also wants to change the organizational culture, and he clearly will NOT be bringing Z back after 2012, as Z is not the sort of guy he wants in the clubhouse. So Theo’s options are limited and he is being paid to make the best decision he can for the benefit of the team. The lack of available and comparable pitching this offseason, as well as the amount of $$ the Cubs will have to spend on baseball operations adds to the complications. If Theo had unlimited money to spend then his decision would be easy—either eat the whole contract or let Z sit on the bench until he decides to walk away from his contract. But Theo doesn’t have an unlimited amount of $$ to spend (although reports indicated that he had authority to do what he needs to do with the albatross contracts Hendry has left in his wake). Taking all of that into consideration, I really don’t think Theo WANTS to have Z in the clubhouse next season because Z does NOT fit with the culture that Theo wants to cultivate, and Theo will try his best to trade him and get some value out of his contract, if he can. And that’s a BIG ‘if." It seems clear that other teams are very hesitant to introduce a clubhouse problem like Z, given his horrific track record in that regard. Additionally, the Cubs do not have a lot of leverage here, as Z gets to veto any trade he doesn’t like. The consequence is that the Cubs end up on the hook for the $18M owed to Z if they just cut him loose. So, with limited money to spend, limited availability of comparable replacements, and a contract that severely limits your ability to move this player even if you can find a suitor, Theo has to try to turn lemons into lemonade (although it’s likely to be some pretty bitter lemonade). I can’t blame him if he decides that the best thing for the team (not the IDEAL thing to do for the team), is to bring back Z for a year and hope for the best while keeping him on a short leash. And if blows up again and things get intolerable at some point in the season, then he pulls the trigger and just releases him. I don’t equate this decision with Al’s contention that to bring Z back under these circumstances is a failure by Theo to change the organizational culture. It will take multiple years to change the organizational culture, and Z will be gone at the first opportunity, once Theo has more options. Cut the guy a break and see what you think of the organizational culture once he has a team built on the players he brings in, not on those left on Jim Hendry’s trash heap.
by DCCubsFan on Nov 16, 2011 12:04 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I read all of this...
what do I win?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Nov 16, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
A paragraph break
Step Two: Develop an organizational plan
by Shanghai Badger on Nov 16, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
1 year left
can both parties suck it up or do we eat the contract or give him away?whatever theo does is fine by me. we do need pitching and if z pulls this shit again he’ll be released for sure.

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