2012 Hall Of Fame Ballot
by Al Yellon on Dec 1, 2011 8:30 AM CST
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Baseball's Hall of Fame ballot was released yesterday; "approximately 600" voting members of the BBWAA will decide whether any eligible player will be inducted next July.
This is, of course, in addition to the new Veterans Committee vote that will take place early next week at MLB's Winter Meetings in Dallas, at which we hope Ron Santo will at last gain induction.
Beyond that, though, it doesn't appear that this year's ballot has anyone new on it that rates induction. Here's a list of the players appearing for the first time:
Jeromy Burnitz, Vinny Castilla, Brian Jordan, Javy Lopez, Bill Mueller, Terry Mulholland, Phil Nevin, Brad Radke, Tim Salmon, Ruben Sierra, Bernie Williams, Tony Womack, Eric Young
There are a fair number of people on that list who played for the Cubs at one time. Six of them, in fact: Burnitz, Mueller, Mulholland, Nevin, Womack and Young. Not one of those ex-Cubs deserves Hall of Fame consideration. Neither, in my opinion, do any of the other 13 newcomers; as Rob Neyer points out, Williams is probably the best player on that list and he's a prime candidate for the Hall of Very Good.
There are 14 holdovers from last year's ballot:
Jeff Bagwell, Juan Gonzalez, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Rafael Palmeiro, Tim Raines, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell, Larry Walker
Larkin and Morris are the only ones returning who got more than 50% of the vote in 2011 (62.1% for Larkin, 53.5% for Morris). Generally, when someone gets over 60% of the vote, he eventually gets in.
Yesterday, we discussed this to some extent in this FanShot; I don't see Larkin as a Hall of Famer, but many pointed out that he has the same argument in his favor as Santo -- he's one of the top shortstops in history.
I've attached a poll to this post. If you were a voter for this in real life, you'd get to vote for up to 10; unfortunately, SBN's poll infrastructure doesn't yet allow for multiple votes in a poll. So, vote for the ONE player you would most like to see inducted this year. Then, in the comments, you can post what your entire ballot would be if you had an official vote.
Personally, I would vote for Larkin, Smith, Raines and Martinez. I've softened my stance on Martinez; I never felt he had the counting stats. But he is clearly the best DH in MLB history. That deserves recognition.
Next year is when voting really gets interesting. First-timers on the 2013 ballot will include Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza, Sammy Sosa and Curt Schilling.
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Tony womak
Marilyn Monroe "yogi your a pretty cool guy"
Berra " Marilyn you ain't so hot yourself"!
Should never be on a hof ballot
Marilyn Monroe "yogi your a pretty cool guy"
Berra " Marilyn you ain't so hot yourself"!
by Notsnud on Dec 1, 2011 8:47 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He's there because he meets the qualifications.
Which are: play 10 seasons, and be retired from the game for five years.
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Palmeiro
Will be the only player in major league history to hit 500 hrs, and 3000 hits, and not make the HoF.
There’s only three others who have accomplished this. Name them?
Marilyn Monroe "yogi your a pretty cool guy"
Berra " Marilyn you ain't so hot yourself"!
Oh goody - 2013
Time for more hypocritical whining about steroids by a bunch of amphetamine-laded has beens and fat sportswriters who would only take steroids in order to be able to lift bigger pizza slices.
Let all the bastards in.
"It's all in the game, yo"
by Worf on Dec 1, 2011 8:54 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Don't hold back.
Tell us what you really think.
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Wouldn't it be great
if all those guys with HOF stats were all denied and a class act like Craig Biggio made it on the first try.
Should happen
Marilyn Monroe "yogi your a pretty cool guy"
Berra " Marilyn you ain't so hot yourself"!
You mean the class act that routinely did watever he could at the plate to get hit with a pitch?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 1, 2011 6:59 PM CST up reply actions
Is that a complement
or an insult?
Marilyn Monroe "yogi your a pretty cool guy"
Berra " Marilyn you ain't so hot yourself"!
the most aggravating part
is that these same hypocrites who won’t vote for HoF for any of these players embraced them during the late 90’s and early 00’s. Then once baseball was done with them, they turned their backs on them, just like Selig.
I'm going to the 2012 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp!!! Who's with me?
Was just wondering your reasoning.
Too high of a career ERA, IMO. Not enough on the counting stats.
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Black Jack...
was one of the most winning pitchers in the 80s, a wonderful guy to have for starting Game 7 of a World Series game and won titles in 2 decades – 1 with the Tigers in the 80s and another with the Jays in the 90s. If Blyleven’s in, Morris should be in as well. Both are in the Hall of Good IMHO but if you’re going to let all the HOGs in, Morris is deserving.
by ChicagoBlues1983 on Dec 2, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
In 1991, I never would have dreamed that Chuck Knoblauch's dummy play on Ronnie Smith would inadvertently help lay the keystone to so many bad Jack Morris HoF arguments
I really liked watching Morris pitch, but he wasn’t anywhere near as good as Dave Steib (who it should be remembered, isn’t a Hall of Famer) back then. Given your criteria (“a wonderful guy to have for starting Game 7 of a World Series game”. “won titles in 2 decades”), Allie Reynolds is a much better choice…and he’s not in the Hall, either (and no one, myself included, is raising a stink over this).
Regardless of whether or not you think Blyleven was a good choice, it shouldn’t factor into the argument. The arguments for Jack Morris should only involve what Jack Morris achieved and by all the evidence which I’ve heard presented as well as witnessed back then, he doesn’t make the cut. Not to say he wasn’t a player I wouldn’t have wanted on my team then, but he’s certainly not a name to jump to mind when you consider assembling an all-time best team. That’s the Hall standard, at least in my mind.
…as I don’t have a Hall of Fame vote, I guess you can easily dismiss that, though :)
Nitpick.
Lonnie Smith, not “Ronnie”.
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My votes: Raines, Larkin, McGwire, Morris, Palmeiro
I’ve been on the fence on Morris in past years (along with Mattingly, Murphy, McGriff), but am at a point now where pitching excellence seems to be in lesser quantities than hitting excellence.
Currently on the fence with Martinez, Smith, Bagwell and Walker.
Al – you don’t see Larkin as a Hall of Famer, but you would vote for him? Most curious…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well, as I said...
… my mind was changed by some of the discussion yesterday. Before that, no, I wouldn’t have voted for him. Now, I think I would.
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If I only had one vote, it would be Larkin
My reasons were in the other thread. Larkin is probably one of the 10 best (certainly one of the 15 best) shortstops of all-time, but he’s underrated because (1) he didn’t excel at any one particular aspect of the game (2) he spent his whole career in a small market and (3) playing in the same league as Ozzie Smith for much of his career probably cost him several Gold Gloves.
If I had multiple votes, I’d also vote for Bagwell, Raines, Smith, Trammell, and Walker.
by Jody Jody Davis on Dec 1, 2011 10:20 AM CST reply actions
Went With Larkin Over Bagwell and Lee Smith
I felt Larkin had more impact as a shortstop than Jeff Bagwell had as a first baseman. I’m a bigger fan of most, when it comes to closers. At that, with only vote, I couldn’t take Lee Smith over the shortstop Larkin. I believe a good shortstop is a little more important than a good closer. Of course, I’m somebody that supported John Franco as a HoF’er. The silence was deafening, when it came to that support.
Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.
Mine
Trammell, Raines, Larkin, Bagwell
-
they are all no-brainers to me. I can’t understand how anyone can leave Bagwell out.
-
And how come no one cares about drug users like Bob Gibson being in the Hall or cheaters like Gaylord Perry being in the Hall, but when it comes to roids, it’s a guaranteed ‘no’?
Bob Gibson
Gibson admitted he would have used steroids if they had been available. I found that pretty funny.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
WTF?
Lee Smith leading the voting on this site? AYFKM?
LOL
U r an ass clown. He is the only one deserving moron.
by 41YearsandCounting on Dec 1, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
Jeromy Burnitz gets my vote...
…for the high socks/stirrups Hall of Fame.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Two thoughts. Three paragraphs.
Most of this year’s group fits the Hall of Good or Hall of Players I Liked. Of the holdovers, I like Larkin. I also think Lee Smith should have made it earlier, and his chances have been diminished by the achievements of Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera. Smith did hold the career saves record for awhile though. Lastly, I can’t decide on Bagwell, but I hear strong cases on MLBN. I see he’s a favorite among folks with an actual vote.
Compared to recreational drugs and other unfavorable things that players have done, I think steriods is a much more polarizing issue. The Mitchell Report basically said to fans, “Most everything you saw for the last 10-15 years shouldn’t have happened”. It broke a lot of hearts and the sheer weight of the issue crushes the random story of a guy doing coke or putting grease on the ball.
Personally, I think they should just label the era what it was, and reconsider the McGwire’s of the game. Its not a nice, happy piece of the game’s history, but those numbers did actually occur. A man either threw or put a bat on a ball, something that requires more skill than muscle.
Personally, I think they should just label the era what it was, and reconsider the McGwire’s of the game. Its not a nice, happy piece of the game’s history, but those numbers did actually occur. A man either threw or put a bat on a ball, something that requires more skill than muscle.
This is not an unreasonable position. I would say that IF those from that era are inducted, the reasons for the cartoonish numbers need to be on each one’s plaque.
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It works for me. This or a similar approach.
I should have used a better word than “polarizing”, because this issue is really more gray than black & white. I wish those guys never did it. At the same time, to ignore all of those records and sorta pretend they never happened; I can’t get onboard with that.
Polarizing is actually pretty accurate
… bring this issue up and people get pretty vehement on both sides of it.
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Does it say "He was the best at throwing a spitball" on Gaylord Perry's plaque?
You can’t pick and choose who you want labeled as “cheaters”, Al.
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, Manny and A-Rod were pretty much the biggest part of baseball for the better part of a dozen years. They need to be seated at the table with the big boys…and if the big boys don’t like it, they can take their busts and go home. Starting with that phoney SOB Joe Morgan.
"Keep looking into the past and you'll keep repeating the past" - Some Smart Guy
That's right...
…so, might as well put them in WITHOUT acknowledging it on their plaque or with a separate wing. Real baseball fans, one way or the other, will have their own opinions of them. We all knew…the writers all knew…and yet we still cheered them and the writers still made a living off of writing about them. Now, when it’s time to give them their dues…they’re chastised. Hypocrisy?
"Keep looking into the past and you'll keep repeating the past" - Some Smart Guy
Give 'em their own wing
Right by the sewer hole.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Dec 2, 2011 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
No
What it says on Perry’s plaque is “playing mind games with array of rituals on mound was part of his arsenal.”
So I guess euphemism is allowed. So it should say on Mark McGwire’s plaque: “helped to succeed by a belief in positive team chemistry.”
I hate that these guys cheated the game...
but I’ll never forget how much fun I had watching baseball in 1998.
by JG23 on Dec 1, 2011 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Lee Smith
deserves to be in the Hall of Fame only because Bruce Sutter is already in the Hall and Lee had more saves (and more years) than Bruce.
"I don't believe in curses." -- Theo Epstein
Yep
Lee Smith at his peak in about 1991 may not have been as good as Bruce Sutter was in 1984, but Smith had a lot more good years than Sutter. I’d put Lee Arthur in the Hall of Fame.
Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.
Lee Smith didn't have all those weak ass 1-out saves that Rivera and Hoffman do
pathetic that they even claim they are great relievers compared to how much work Lee performed, i.e. Innings per save. to earn a save.
I'm going to the 2012 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp!!! Who's with me?
Have you ever seen Rivera pitch?
I think Smith is deserving, but Rivera and Hoffman have done more than enough. Hoffman will end up having to wait. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rivera goes first ballot.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
I hate to break it to you but by the second half of his career
Smith was getting as many wimpy saves as anyone else. For example,
1991: 67 games, 73 innings, 47 saves.
1992: 70 games, 75 innings, 43 saves.
1994: 41 games, 38 innings, 33 saves.
The numbers above don’t differ from many of Rivera’s top seasons. If you want manly closers you have to go further back.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
The problem is
that Bruce Sutter shouldn’t have been inducted. We can’t go around inducting every player better than Travis Jackson or Freddie Lindstrom into the Hall, because then Jay Bell and Troy Glaus would be in Cooperstown.
I like Larkin and Bagwell
I wanted to make an argument for Larry Walker, but in my mind he falls just short. Only 2 on my ballot/.
Gotta go with Edgar Martinez
Living in Pacific NW, I got to see him play a lot. He was clutch, a great all-around hitter and, if any DH deserves this (and why shouldn’t they?), Edgar does. Also a great clubhouse and community guy.
"...the name on the front is a lot more important than the name on the back." Ryne Sandberg 7/31/05
by shifafaontheside on Dec 1, 2011 2:56 PM CST reply actions
I lived in Seattle from 93-98
he was a stud at the plate. Maybe not a first ballot HoF guy, but should get in.
Marilyn Monroe "yogi your a pretty cool guy"
Berra " Marilyn you ain't so hot yourself"!
Who do I pick from next year's ballot?
Mike Piazza. And of course… Slammin’ Sammy Sosa!
Jack Brickhouse: "Hey! Hey!" Harry Caray: "Holy Cow!"
Vince Lloyd: "The Chicago Cubs are on the Air!" Len Kasper: "Oh Baby!!!!"
Ron Santo: "YES!" "All Right! Let's do it!" "Ohhh Nooooo!" "Gee Whiz! Come on!" AND... "This Is The Year!"
by #1 iowan cubs fan on Dec 1, 2011 3:49 PM CST reply actions
Rough vote
There’s plenty of names on this list that are probably going to make the HOF eventually, but out of the given list, I’d probably only cast votes for Bagwell, Bernie, and Mattingly. I think Larkin and Walker are close second’s to those, maybe even Morris, but everyone else will have to wait until a later date. No way do McGwire and Palmeiro ever get a vote from me…
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2009 & 2011 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
"Terry's down, oh my! Van Persie all by himself now, around Cech, and that'll do it!"
larkin , lee smith , and raines
without a doubt , mcgwire and palmiero would never get my vote as well .
Larkin, Raines, Bagwell.
I’m on the fence about Smith and Martinez. I’m leaning in favor of Jack Morris, although I can’t really tell you why…it’s kind of a “smell test” thing. He’s got the high-profile wins; he “feels” (or, I guess, “smells”) like a HoFer.
I think a lot of the “steroid” crowd will eventually get in, although they may have to wait a bit. I will laugh a bit if Bonds has to wait a few years, since I’m pretty sure if he had never juiced, he’d have been a sure first-ballot inductee.
On the subject of cheating: I find that there’s a certain amount of charm that goes with some forms of cheating—doctoring the ball, corking bats, etc. They’re trying to get away with it in front of everyone, and that somehow makes it OK. If they get caught, they get suspended for a few games, we all have a good laugh at their expense…and then it’s mostly forgotten about. It’s fun.
"This is a football." "Slow down, coach! You're goin' too fast!"
Bagwell is the most deserving
If I had a ballot, I’d vote for:
Bagwell
Larkin
Martinez
McGwire
Murphy
Palmeiro
Raines
Smith
Trammell
Walker
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
Old Yankee Fan
I have to give Don Mattingly a sentimental nod. Mor realisically, Larkin is # 1; Trammel, Bgwell, Mattingly, all deserve membership.
by fridrikrinngamli on Dec 2, 2011 7:27 AM CST reply actions
Most deserving
Lee Smith, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, and oh yeah, Pete Rose
I wouldn't be that extreme
… but I also say, absolutely no to Pete Rose.
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wait - aren't you the guy that keeps barking "Let 'em all in!"?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I'm all for letting Rose and Jackson in
That’s what it boils down to.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
Raines, Larkin, Edgar M.
Not sure about Bagwell, but I wouldn’t be annoyed if he got in.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
Bagwell, Larkin, Edgar, Raines, Smith
No one else on there deserves it.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
My ballot
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Larkin
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Jury is out on Mattingly, McGriff, McGwire, and Palmeiro. Smith is a question mark for me too, as he’s a Hall of Good player IMHO.
by ChicagoBlues1983 on Dec 2, 2011 4:47 PM CST reply actions
also curious about the apprehension to Pete Rose
I know this a Cubs forum here, but I wonder about our apprehensions toward Pete Rose. Yeah he’s a schmuck. He’ll probably always be a schmuck, but the Hall of Fame shouldn’t be based on character for the most part.
The reason I say that is one person always comes to mind – Ty Cobb. Racist, always looked for a corner to cut, and was one of the most hated men in baseball during his day and yet he resides next to all those we hold in such high regard. Just some food for thought.
by ChicagoBlues1983 on Dec 2, 2011 4:50 PM CST reply actions
Ty Cobb's ties to gambling were never proven
That’s the difference between Rose and Cobb.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
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