Former Cub Felix Pie Signs With...
... the Cleveland Indians. (Minor league deal, spring training invite.)
6 months ago
Al Yellon
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Anybody else wondering
if the Cubs will bid on Norichika Aoki? Highest OBP in the Japan league, not tremendous speed, but a solid outfielder with a poor arm. I haven’t seen estimates of how much he might cost. It would be difficult to find a player more similar to Fukudome, but Kosuke had more power and less AVG and OBP in Japan than Aoki.
...formerly known as zambranofan
Is he posted?
Or is he a free agent?
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i think i read hes about to be posted.
but my question is why and where? why sign him if he’s a lot like DeJesus, and where is he going to play? i’d rather see Jackson and a run at Cespedes
Here is an article about Aoki that will make you not want him.
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Ummm, what in there would make you not want him?
The poor arm (that I mentioned above)? He’s a career .400 OBA player in Japan. It’s just sort of ironic that as Theo and Jed take over, with possible outfield slots open, there is a player available, maybe at a very low price, who could be a positive outlier at getting on base; but, he’s very similar to a player the Cubs just got rid of (at least on paper) and they just signed DeJesus, who is also similar.
...formerly known as zambranofan
Looks like a poor man's Fukudome.
Been there, done that.
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by Al Yellon on Dec 12, 2011 11:22 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If the Nationals are that desperate for outfield help...
Do you think they would look at Marlon Byrd? He is certainly projected to be better than Aoki, is a solid defender, and is signed to a reasonable contract. Perahps we can get salary relief and a prospect in return?
What are your thoughts?
He sounds like
Juan Pierre without the speed.
See my comment above.
Do you think this makes the Nationals a possible trade partner for Marlon Byrd?
Don't know how desparate the Nationals would be to trade for Byrd...
he already played for them in 2005-2006 and I don’t think they were impressed. Granted, he’s improved as player since then, but they might not be in a hurry for a second go around.
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"--The Brain
I hadn't realized he is only 26.
Also, it’s interesting that a fringe player like Pie can be making nearly a million a year.
Wow.
What a difference 4 years make. From a untouchable in the Cubs system to a spring training invite.
Another great scouting and drafting gem from
the “former regime”.
That and many more like him, is why the Cubs system is what it is, right now.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Dec 12, 2011 9:58 AM CST up reply actions
Pie was always high-risk / high reward
Plus he did put up some good minor league numbers.
BA had him rated highly, so it is not like Hendry & Co where the only ones expecting more from him.
I’ve always wondered if his, ahem, injury, somehow caused effected him long-term.
"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester
by Jose's Eyelid on Dec 12, 2011 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
It's possible ...
that the instruction Pie received in the minors put him on the wrong path. The Cubs, under Hendry, had an unbelievably awful track record at producing patient position players. Other than Soto, the last Cubs prospect who could take a walk was probably Mark Grace.
I would love to see a good, in-depth piece about how much coaching (at various levels) impacts players’ approaches at the plate. Some say it’s too late to tinker with this kind of thing in the majors. I wonder if the same could be said about the minors?
So, are Cubs prospects impatient at the plate because the system doesn’t foster patience, or did the Cubs for years not draft/sign patient players?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I think it is both
We drafted “Toolsy” players for so many years (and basically none of them have panned out).
I have yet to see an example of our Minor League coaches taking “raw talent” and refining it to the point of making a better ballplayer than when they started.
There is no reason why we shouldn’t have the best minor league coaches in all of baseball. I know it would not be a gaurantee of success, but at least the odds would increase that some players would benefit from their teaching.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Dec 12, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
I doubt it.
Pie’s swing was awful. I never liked him from the first time I saw him. He got by in the minors on great talent but major league pitchers are going to find the holes. I remember Piniella going down to work with him over the winter. I never saw any improvement and it was after that that Piniella seemed to write him off.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
at 18 in the MWL
Pie went .285/.346/.388. Very few teenagers in their second year of pro ball can do that—he was justifiably hyped, especially after following up with a couple very good years. The raw ability was evident, but I think he lacked the ability (work ethic, baseball IQ—especially as it translates to pitch recognition—etc) to build on it. I doubt it was work ethic though, Pie was one of the most enthusiastic players I’ve seen in a long time.
Right now, Cheslor Cuthbert for the Royals is getting big hype (like top 30-40 prospect) for a .267/.345/.397 line at 18 in the MWL…people still think it’s an indicator of success. For that type of prospect, if I were a GM in trade talks I’d look really hard at the scouts’ reports on their willingness to learn/work.
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 12, 2011 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Eh ...
the main problem here wasn’t that Hendry et. al botched Pie on scouting and drafting. Pie didn’t turn out to be a Harvey or a Dopirak. But Hendry overvalued Pie once the Cubs acquired him and considered him an untouchable when he could have been a valuable trade chip.
Not since the 2003-04 teams (the Lee and Ramirez trades) did Hendry sell high on a top prospect and look good for it after the fact. That’s not to say all his trades were bad or that all the guys he traded ended up being nothings. But aside from the Garza trade — for which the jury is still out on the prospects — when did Hendry sell high on a top prospect and outsmart the other team in the process? I guess the Harden trade could apply. But no one thought the A’s got anything great back — it was billed by a couple experts as a “quantity-not-quality” haul.
I really think that Hendry, at one point in time, was a pretty good GM. His work in 2003-04 was good, and the patchwork moves for 2005 were more about making chicken salad than anything else (after the 2004 collapse). But, sometime around 2006, Hendry started to get outsmarted by other GMs where he used to outsmart the likes of Dave Littlefield. This was disguised for a while by the crazy spending in 2006-08 and the good teams that followed.
Comparatively speaking, I’m not sure if Hendry got worse. It was just that everybody else — the other GMs — got better.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I think Hendry
Just took riskier and riskier bets in the hopes that he’d have something to show for all the money he spent before the house of cards came down. If he’d won a WS in the process (or hell, even just made it to the WS for the first time since WWII), we probably wouldn’t be so down on him.
Elaborate.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
After 2003
And getting closer to the WS than we had been in most Cubs’ fans lifetimes, I think there was a lot of pressure to seal the deal. 2004 would have been a great year if not for all the injuries, and I think people felt the same about 2005. When a trend emerged in 2006, he knew he had to make some big moves to right the ship, which is why you saw Soriano (the off-season’s premiere free agent, if memory serves) signed for the 2007 season. With the trip to the playoffs in 2007, there was the feeling that the Cubs were only a piece or two away, so they spent big on Fukudome, a risk given the history of other Japanese players coming to the US, but likely a good candidate to get the job done. When that wasn’t enough, you saw Milton Bradley come over in 2008. Hendry had to know his window of opportunity was closing with the aging of the players who made the run in 2003 (at least those who were still left), and with the constraints of a tighter and tighter payroll caused by his spending, had to take bigger and bigger risks to fit players within the budget he was allowed.
Hendry knew that if he was the guy to bring the Cubs a WS victory, he’d be untouchable, so he wasn’t worrying about the future. He was doing everything he could to put the Cubs in the postseason each season which worked for a little while, until the weight of the bad contracts he’d signed had robbed any hope for the future.
Eh ...
I think there are a lot of holes in that. Looking at each offseason, Hendry’s biggest missteps (other than maybe Bradley) weren’t big gambles gone wrong.
1) 2003-04: All about bringing in reinforcements to the 2003 team that came close — but none of the moves was particularly risky. Some of them (Hawkins, Barrett) were good players who were square pegs in round holes — not failed risks.
2) 2004-05: The team needed a root canal after the late-season collapse. Most of the moves in that offseason (and into early 2005) stemmed from the need to dump guys (Sosa, Farnsworth, Hawkins). The big signing that offseason was Burnitz to a 1-year deal. Not exactly risky.
3) 2005-06: Hendry gambled a lot (and lost) on Juan Pierre. But the other moves were idiotic extensions for Rusch and Neifi, and a somewhat reasonable deal for Jacque Jones.
4) 2006-07: Trib opens its wallet to make the team better/easier to sell. But other than Soriano’s contract, the others made sense. The bewildering thing wasn’t the individual moves (Lilly got less than Gil Meche) it was all the moves added up (with Lee’s extension in early 2006 and Zambrano’s in late 2007).
5) 2007-08: Basically, this was the offseason of Kosuke. The Cubs were one of several teams who severely misjudged him, but considering that they weren’t even the high bidder, I don’t think this was Hendry being too much of a gambler.
6) 2008-09: By far, Hendry’s worst offseason — and it was built around the risky signing of Milton Bradley. That signing is still bewildering. Even with the year Bradley had in 2008, why did he get so much more money than Adam Dunn? I just think Hendry was off his game this offseason, for whatever reason. Everything he did just turned out so badly.
7) 2009-10: Another offseason built around dumping players (Bradley and Miles). Neither move was risky, though. And the Byrd signing was the beginning of two years of patchwork.
8) 2010-11: The Garza trade WAS a big risk. But the other big move of the offseason (the return of Kerry Wood) wasn’t.
So, other than the Garza and Pierre trades — both of which required a big haul of prospects and both of which occurred before really bad years — and the Bradley signing, I don’t think Hendry’s problem was risk taking. Hendry waited too long for Wood/Prior to be 2003 good again and then was the GM when the team handed out four really bad contracts within 26 months (Bradley, Kosuke, Soriano, Zambrano).
Hendry had a lot of problems that could be considered his main failing — his inability to develop position players (particularly ones with plate discipline) would be at the top of my list. He did take some risks that fell through, but I think that was a symptom, not a root cause.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
My contention
Is that his moves got riskier as time went on. ‘03-’05 wasn’t risky at all (which we agree on). Then, chronologically, you’ve got Juan Pierre, Soriano, Fukudome, and Bradley, all of which were increasing in risk. After Bradley, I’d say that the walls indeed came down but with the sale of the team, it took a couple years for it all to catch up to Hendry.
Also, as a counterpoint to your theory, the Hendry moves that we most regret were FA signings, not trades, which somewhat removes other GMs from the equation (at least in comparison to trades).
In all honesty, the truth is probably somewhere between our points.
The problem was the inability or unwillingness to go big.
It all goes back to the team’s half-measures in pursuing Carlos Beltran after 2004, and their total failure to pursue Vladimir Guerrero after 2003.
Whether those non-moves were Andy MacPhail’s influence, or Hendry’s reticence to go after the top guy available, those two failures sealed Hendry’s fate.
Acquiring either player would have dramatically altered Hendry’s GM tenure. Instead, after passing on Beltran for 2005, we saw a series of half-measures that led to tens of millions (and Ricky Nolasco, for pete’s sake) wasted on middling talents, year after year.
2004
Scared to sign Vlad b/c of the single overlap year between what would have been Vlad’s contract and the end of Aloe’s. (SPOILER ALERT – the cost of Vlad’s deal, $10-12MM annually, is going to be eclipsed by some questionable Hendry signings later. Stay tuned.)
2005
Even with Alou gone and Sosa about to be ushered out of town, we were scared to sign Beltran, so we entered the season with an outfield of Hollandsworth-Patterson-Burnitz.
Read that again – Hollandsworth, Patterson, Burnitz. That was the starting OF after a 2 year run of contention, for a team that was a couple of moves away from winning the title, after consecutive off seasons when Vlad and Beltran were available. The 2004 world-beater team was dismantled (as it should have been, BTW – that team needed an “end-of-Godfather 1” style purge), but they didn’t bother to sign anyone of any significance.
2006
For 2006, the entire OF needed to be replaced. So we traded Ricky Nolasco for Juan GD Pierre – the man who consistently lead the league in outs. It took about 2 months for everyone (including Hendry) to realize that Pierre was a disaster. He was let go after the season.
We also signed Jacque Jones, continuing Hendry’s uncanny ability to seek out and acquire 2nd tier talent… at rates that seem almost reasonable in a vacuum, until you realize that everyone on the team is making $5MM+.
2007
The team had hit rock bottom. The idea that Nomar Garciaparra had more to offer was mercifully taken out behind the woodshed and shot. The team had no CF, so we went out and got…. ALFONSO SORIANO! He can play CF, right?
(one week later) Well, Jacque Jones used to. We’ll slide him over. Now the OF is Soriano-Jones-The Ghost of Cliff Floyd.
2008
Well, the Ghost of Cliff Floyd can’t get on base or play defense. Enter Fukudome.
(second half 2008) This Fukudome thing may have been a bad idea.
2009
We need POWER out of our outfield! So lets ditch Jim Edmonds, move Fukudome out of position to CF, and add Milton Bradley for a contract that is longer than he’s ever stayed in one city! Surely he won’t be out of Chicago before the year is out, and out of baseball before this contract is over… right?
(The 2008-09 offseason is the worst offseason I can remember the Cubs having. Every Hendry move was so obviously wrong at the time it was made, and the rationalizations were so weird, that I won’t bother to recount them. Suffice it to say that Hendry trumpeted Aaron Miles’ ability to play CF at one point.)
2010
OK, Bradley didn’t work out. In fact, 2009 didn’t work out for a lot of reasons. We finally got Aaron Heilman though, wasn’t that crazy? Seriously though Fukudome can’t play CF. We don’t really want him to play anywhere, but at least in RF his glove is OK. We’ll give Marlon Byrd a 3-year deal! Always better to spend $10MM on 2 mediocre players, as opposed to 1 good player. We’ll throw the savings toward John Grabow.
2011
OK, Dome can’t play RF anymore, either.
How did the years go by so fast? How did the Cubs, on balance, fail to do anything right for so long – in what they have done, and in what they have failed to do?
I could go on about Hendry’s rather amazing failures….. Remember the time Dusty Baker essentially called all of the media guys a bunch of p*ssies for believing in pitch counts? (Remember how I noted on this board that Dusty Baker was simultaneously ruining the present AND future of the Cubs?)
Remember the time he gave Joey Gathright a million dollars and then cut him like 3 weeks into the season?
Remember the time he gave Chad Gaudin a million dollars and then literally cut him PRIOR to the season in order to keep David Patton?
Remember that time they brought Bobby Howry back and let him throw in 24 games worth of 7.71 ERA ball?
Remember Mike Quade?
The Cubs decade lost in the wilderness is the direct, inevitable result of the half-measures they’ve employed. They’ve wasted hundreds of millions of dollars, seemingly in an attempt to acquire almost-but-not-quite-good-enough players for every single position on the 25-man.
I’m sure if Hendry could do it over again, he’d decide to pick his spots better. After 2003 and 2004 the team was able to add payroll, and marquee players were available… and they passed. That was the moment to strike.
Instead, the “moment” they chose was when the team had augured in to 2006’s disaster, and they were forced to make Soriano the lynchpin of the franchise, simply b/c he was the top player who happened to be available at that moment.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Dec 12, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 7 recs
I'm ecstatic Hendry is gone.
But I do miss wandering into threads and rec’ing every post where D98 straight up dumped all over Hendry, so this is getting green.
Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!
That should have been like 4 posts. I didn't realize it was so long.
I think I blacked out there for a while
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
A Will Ferrell in Old School moment?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Im rec'ing this just because I have to scroll so much to read it all
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
Hmmm.
I’m not sure if I buy this premise. Are you saying the Cubs were doomed because they didn’t bite on Guerrero and Beltran?
I think that’s oversimplifying. It certainly hurt them in 2004-05. But they could have made better choices in the following years.
Interesting post, though.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I don't think those failures *doomed* Hendry.
I think that, had Hendry signed either Vlad OR Beltran, he would have been unlikely to have committed his more egregious errors, especially wrt outfield procurement.
If he’d signed Beltran, it’s unlikely he would have (could have) signed Soriano. But more to the point, he also wouldnt have traded for Pierre, because CF would have been covered.
Honestly, the fallout from not signing Carlos Beltran sent the team into about 5 years worth of spiraling poor decisions. No Beltran meant getting Pierre. Pierre’s failure got us Jones. Jones’ failure got us Dome. And Dome’s failure got us Bradley. 5 years of trying to compensate for the prior year’s failed OF acquisition, and failing.
Hendry still could have recovered, even after missing on those two elite bats. It was just a tougher job. And he made poor decisions in constructing rosters from that point forward.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Pierre and Jones were acquired in the same offseason.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Right. Pierre's failure got us Soriano.
His CF failure moved Jones over, which got us Dome.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
What makes you think Beltran or Vlad would have signed with the Cubs...
…short of Hendry adding two years to his offer, as he later did with Soriano?
In the nearly 40 year history of modern free agency, the Cubs have signed exactly five premium or almost-premium position players: Kingman, Dawson, Bell, Alou, and Soriano. Of these, only Hawk had the all-around game that Beltran and Guerrero offered in 2003-04, and as we know, Dawson sought refuge at Wrigley only to protect his knees from the shock of Astroturf.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
Because Vlad was begging for an offer?
The maker for Guerrero was inexplicably cold after 2003. He’d hurt his back at some point prior, but he had returned healthy. He signed a deal that was universally regarded as cheap at the time.
Beltran was also begging for an offer. (through Boras, but still- it was enough talk that Hendry was forced to comment.) Obviously, he would not have been cheap. But they demonstrated 24 months later that they had enough cash to outbid NYM- soriano’s deal was 18mm bigger.
The Cubs failure to sign free agents isn’t due to Chicago being unattractive for ball players- it’s been due to the Cubs’ running a horrific organization and playing losing baseball – no one wants to sign up for that- and it’s been due to an almost total lack of effort and vision from several consecutive front offices.
When you intentionally target second tier players in an attempt to save cash (prior to 2006-ish) or due to an philosophy that spending on 2 above average players beats spending on 1 elite one (2006-2011), you don’t chase after or land any big fish.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
clicking on that headline
I thought, “which Japanese team will it be?”
Ham Fighters
Is an awesome team name. I know it’s the Nippon Ham____Fighters, but Ham Fighters is a much better image.
Felix Pie hasn't played for the Chicago Cubs since 2008.
Things that happened in 2008:
Michael Phelps won like a thousand gold medals at the Olympics
Caylee Anthony still alive
Justin Bieber had not been discovered
Michael Jackson alive
I think it’s time we move on from Felix Pie.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Dec 12, 2011 11:27 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
It's baseball news involving someone who was much discussed here.
If you don’t want to discuss, you can move on. Some of us are interested.
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I have a google news alert setup for Bobby Hill.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Dec 12, 2011 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
Any way to go back and undo this one from EVER happening?
Justin Bieber had not been discovered
Where we're going... we don't need roads.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Wait it out - he's only got a few years left as a "teen heartthrob".
Only Justin Timberlake Himself ever figured out how to keep that gig going longer than 5 years.
Unfortunately there are an unlimited supply of teen heartthrobs. No matter how many time machines we invent, there will always be a Bieber, or a NSync, or a Backstreet Boys, or a New Kids, or a That Kid from Home Improvement, or a Leif Garrett, and so on and so on, back to the invention of teenagers.
Far easier to just completely ignore teenagers and everything they like.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
And before that....
David Cassady, Bobby Sherman, Paul Anka, Neil Sedaka and Bobby Vinton.
On the plus side, the Beatles and Frank Sinatra were big teen heartthrobs.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
I was for one day
the day he hit that big homer against the Cards. Otherwise – meh.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
I think I recall him hitting a homer in a night game against the Mets.
That was cool, I suppose.
Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!
he also threw a guy out at the plate
I think in his very first game. Nice arm
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
I like how he wore his wristbands.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
remember when he hit better than the flying spaghetti monster in august of 09
and everyone was freaking out that pie finally figured it out?
good times
THEOOOOOOOOO (and Hoyer)
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