Report: Cubs, Reds Discussing Trade Involving Sean Marshall
by Al Yellon on Dec 20, 2011 9:30 PM CST
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This is a most interesting report, considering this FanPost discussing Sean Marshall which was posted earlier today.
Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports posts that the Cubs and Reds are discussing a deal:
The Reds, continuing their search for bullpen help, are talking to the Cubs about a trade for left-hander Sean Marshall, according to major-league sources.
The Cubs are targeting left-hander Travis Wood, a pitcher who intrigued team president Theo Epstein last season when Epstein was GM of the Red Sox, sources say.
It is not known whether other players might also be part of the deal.
Well.
As most of you know, I like Sean Marshall -- always have. In fact, I recently renewed BCB's sponsorship of his Baseball-Reference page. Marshall has been one of the top lefthanded relievers in baseball the last two years.
Travis Wood will be 25 in February. He had a very good year in debuting for the Reds in 2010; not so good in 2011. Last season included a couple of minor league demotions for Wood. At 25, he's still got a chance to improve, and he'd be quite cheap in 2012, as he is not yet arb-eligible. He's under team control through 2017.
I also remember well his major league debut, which was against the Cubs at Wrigley Field on July 1, 2010. He threw seven solid innings.
Much as I like Sean Marshall, I might be inclined to make this deal, but not one-for-one; I'd probably want another pitching prospect back from the Reds.
Discuss, etc.
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I'm already envisioning the We Got (More) Wood t-shirts
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Dec 20, 2011 9:32 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Trying to corner the market on major league Wood, I guess.
Here are three more guys TheoJed could get.
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Hey could also bring back Gary Woods in some capacity.
Yeah, it’s Woods instead of Wood but I couldn’t pass up a chance to make a Gary Woods reference.
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Dec 20, 2011 9:43 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
5 Woods for Wrigley Hood?
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
It is better to spend money like there's no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there's no money! - Irish toast.
Sounds more like a combo
swing jazz/rap combo, but yeah.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
That's why it says "Report" in the headline.
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It sounds like a good deal
5 years of a starter who potential to be a number 2 for a 1 year of a really good setup guy
As much as I disagreed with you about Darvish, I could not agree more with you here:
I might be inclined to make this deal, but not one-for-one; I’d probably want another pitching prospect back from the Reds.
GetItDoneTheoJed
BEAR DOWN!
Sveum Game '12
Agree in principle...
…but I understand Wood projects as a back-of-the-rotation starter.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Not a huge fan of this trade.
If the cubs give Marshall a chance this year, he could be a potentially good starter. That said, I’ve always liked him and want them to sign him to a longer term deal. I’m not sure why, but I always envisioned him as one of those club players who 30 years from now would be at all events as an old cubbie!
sorry to burst your bubble...
but that doesnt happen anymore.
sam fuld
So i you can give you can take it.
Trading with a division rival?
Times are certainly different. I hate to lose Marshall but they will have to come up with more.
We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 is going into the Hall of Fame!!
by mrcubsfan on Dec 20, 2011 9:35 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Marshall is one of the best relievers in the game
Trading him for a potential starter? No dice. They’d better sweeten the deal substantially. I’d hate to see the Cubs give up Sean for nothing.
"Whenever one finds himself in the majority, it is time to step back and reflect," Mark Twain.
by WindisBlowingOut! on Dec 21, 2011 8:18 AM CST up reply actions
wood is going to be good
i’m going to want someone else coming with him, though
Screw you, Jon Daniels
Votto straight up or deal is off.
I can’t imagine dealing within the division unless it is the Pirates. I wouldn’t mind the deal, but add a good bat from there system.
Joey Votto for Sean Marshall?
Keep dreaming, Grock.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I guess it might be worth it ...
if we can get another pitcher, or a hitter to sweeten the deal.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
Realistically
I think this is one of the very few “positions of strength” that the Cubs can trade from. I would be really disappointed in the front office if Wood is all we get for Marshall.
"I lof to hit de home ron!"
Appears we're all in agreement.
Marshall for Wood… AND someone else.
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Yes
And honestly, I’m not too crazy about trading him within the division, either.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 20, 2011 11:42 PM CST up reply actions
But he's a free agent after next season, and we probably won't compete next year anyways.
Hopefully he either comes back to the Cubs or leaves the central after 2012.
Right.
Although I suppose Easy Ed wouldn’t want him back after he’s traded.
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probably not, but he also doesnt want
Travis wood, because its just a little to close to Kerry Wood, and Kerry never won a thing with the Cubs.
So i you can give you can take it.
I'm all for a Wood for Wood deal tho...a great X-Mas gift for this long time fan.
Happy Holidays to all BCBers...be safe.
Trading in the division is great,
if you win the trade. (see Sandberg for DeJesus)
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Dunno. He has all the talent and sure was dominant at times in '10.
I worried last year that he was dealing with some injury issues (Wood). I guess it was mechanical, or location(al)? I’m not expert (obviously).
The kid, however, should see plenty of good fortune in the coming years. I think getting away from Baker can only help his cause.
"Hey Hey, Holy mackerel, no doubt about it,!"
Problem is going to be...
is our bullpen is going to be weak if this goes down.
Wood, Russell, Marmol, Samardzija and whomever is left from the rotation? Might have to make over our bullpen also.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
No...
But Garza, Dempster, Z / Wells, Wood, Cashner is a more promising rotation.
For the pen, if you’re “confident” in 4 (Wood, Russell, Shark, Marmol…… up for debate whether that group instills confidence), that’s really about all you can ask. They’ll pitch the bulk of the high leverage innings. The other three pen guys usually pitch in losing situations, anyway.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I'd take Maholm in that group
… and put Cashner in the pen. That would be stronger. Two lefties.
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Then sub in Maholm for Z / Wells
I’m still not quite sure why you’re so determined to take the Cubs’ most talented young arm and not try him out in the rotation like he’s been groomed for.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Well
… as I mentioned to you earlier, I’m not convinced he can do that.
Wood was a top prospect of the Reds in 2010. Had a very good debut year. Wasn’t as good last year. I think he could be a fine starter, is under team control for five more seasons, and would give some payroll relief.
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I'm not opposed to adding Travis.
But, even if you’re “not convinced” Cashner can be a starter… why wouldn’t you at least try him as a starter for another year? If he proves he can’t handle it either physically or based on production… then you just bump him back to the pen.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Because you might risk getting him hurt again.
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??
Because he suffered one injury, which was clearly mismanaged by the Cubs medical staff, as a SP? And apparently we know he wouldn’t get hurt in the pen??
You’re certainly welcome to your position that Cashner won’t be effective as a starter… but the health “issue” is way, way overblown with Cashner.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Maybe.
“Clearly mismanaged”? How, exactly? They didn’t make him get hurt.
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IMO they clearly mismanaged the rehab.
Every projection on him returning to action was way off the mark. And he suffered, what, two or three “setbacks” in his rehab? Part of that could be his physical structure, but I’m not sure why that would have never cropped up before. Given the Cubs’ seemingly poor handling of injuries/rehab in the past, I lean toward them at least playing a role in the extended nature of the rehab.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Well
… you have a point about those “setbacks”. We don’t know the details of how they were handling that, what the “setbacks” were, etc.
I’ll be interested in seeing if this sort of thing changes under new management.
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Agreed.
The Cubs have not handled injuries well in the recent past… from rehab issues, to misdiagnoses, to letting vets decide when they are(n’t) hurt.
That really, really needs to change.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Dec 20, 2011 10:17 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
I would not say his injury is overblown
not by me at least.
But – its shoulder. So I hope its just a fluke
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
The overblown part
is all the rhetoric of “he’s not durable enough”. He’s had one injury. Obviously it knocked him out for most of the year… and you’re right, I’m more scared of shoulder issues than elbows at this point… but people are acting like he’s had an injury-riddled history.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I agree on this
but people are acting like he’s had an injury-riddled history.
The success of elbow surgery makes itself known a lot – whereas injuries of the shoulder are fewer and far
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
What?
He is completely healed, that was his one serious injury of his career, and it was caused by a fluke, not being overworked. One injury shouldn’t close the door on the possibilty of him becoming a Matt Garza-caliber pitcher.
by Dcr18 on Dec 20, 2011 10:20 PM CST up reply actions 8 recs
Further greened.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Good point
There may be no better chance to give Cashner the innings and exposure he needs to be evaluated as a starter than this upcoming (rebuilding) year.
by stuartscottslefteye on Dec 21, 2011 6:45 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
He has been on that boat for a while..
.. I’ll give him that much.
I don’t agree with Cashner in the pen either until he obviously proves he can’t handle being a starter.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
He strikes me
As a two pitch pitcher who doesn’t seem durable and has more experience (iirc) as a reliever than a starter.
I think he's talking about Cashner, not Marshall, here.
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Neither Cashner or Marshall is a two pitch guy.
And both were groomed as starters. Marshall obviously has more pen experience now… Cashner has been a SP the vast majority of his baseball life.
And, as Al noted, I was indeed referring to Cashner.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Cashner has more upside than anyone we have by a large margin.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
I'd rather they see if Cashner can be a starter - more value in 200 innings than 70
But after losing most of 2011 to injury, can he hop back into the rotation on Opening Day 2012?
He's been a reliever almost exclusively since HS
I’m not certain it’s wise to expect a guy who’s averaged 70 innings a year since he was 18 to be a 200 inning guy at 25. Especially coming off a major shoulder injury and a 15 inning campaign in 2011.
If keeping him health is a priority. Let him pitch in the pen.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Nope.
He’s been a reliever almost exclusively since HS
Simply not true.
JUCO freshman: reliever
JUCO Soph: starter
TCU SR: reliever (due to depth of rotation)
Cubs selected him in 08 as a starter. In his debut, he started 6 of 8. In 09, he started all 24 games he pitched in. In ’10, he started his first 9 games, then made two relief appearances to prep him for the bullpen spot in Chicago (which was a Hendry desperate ploy to compete). In ’11, he makes the Cubs rotation out of ST.
So how in the world exactly is that “almost exclusively” as a reliever since HS??
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
He's started less than 50 games since HS
Hes been less of a starter over the last 7 years than Sean Marshall has.
Maybe he recovers from missing all last year with a non surgically repaired shoulder injury? I’d be willing to guarantee he isn’t in any shape to pitch 200 innings.
I think it’d be borderline criminal to push him to 150.
I’d rather have a healthy reliever than an injured starter.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Dec 21, 2011 8:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Cashner would need to have at least one more shoulder injury before making him a reliever
is even considered. Rash decisions like taking a extremely valuable asset such as a high upside starter and converting him into a reliever is not something good organizations should be doing, especially after just ONE major injury. In addition, Cashner has been more successful over his professional career as a starter versus coming out of the bullpen and that is an important point that is getting lost in the shuffle here.
I’m fairly certain that Theo, Jed, and Sveum are going to let Cashner compete for a rotation spot this coming Spring. If he sticks, they’ll limit him to probably at most 120-140 starter innings, probably skip his spot in the rotation a few times and then move him to the bullpen towards the end of the season. Bill James projects Cashner to pitch 137 innings (likely as a starter), with 8K’s and 4 BBs / 9, and an ERA/FIP of 3.36/3.35 in 2012, that is something our starting rotation could use. Yet you’d rather have him be a 4+ ERA pitcher out of the bullpen, which is basically what he has been to this point as a reliever. That just doesn’t make a lot of sense, IMHO……
I'd rather...
see if we had a potential cheap rotation guy (far more valuable than a reliever) in an already down year.
D98 mistaken, a hyperbole as in a funny or revisionism as in trying to make a new fact to confirm a prejudice
Who says he has to pitch 200 innings?
You know how many Cubs pitched 200 innings last year? One. And Q had to push Dempster gasping and wheezing down the stretch to get to 202 (34 starts). The rest of the bunch: Garza 198 (31), Z 146 (24), Wells 135 (23).
Now, the Cubs not having consistent starters was obviously part of the problem.
But if Cashner is the #5 starter, there’s really no problem managing him to start 20-24 games and throw around 140 innings. That would give you a pretty good idea of what he’s capable of as a starter.
And this:
I’d rather have a healthy reliever than an injured starter
Is ridiculous. You have absolutely zero evidence that the injury occurred because he was a starting pitcher or that his shoulder can’t withstand being a starter. You also have no way to even guess that his shoulder isn’t stable enough to start, but is stable enough to be a reliever.
And since you’re basing this primarily on a “non-surgically repaired shoulder”… could you please point me to a couple examples of pitchers with the same condition who couldn’t cut it as starters, moved to the bullpen, and then proved to be effective/consistent relievers?? Sure some guys move to the pen… but there’s not much that confirms it was because their shoulder couldn’t take the burden of being a starter.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Dec 21, 2011 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Kerry Wood
He had a partial tear in his rotator cuff in 2005, pitched a little out of the pen until shutting it down. Elected to rehab instead of having the surgery.
Came back and tried to start in 2006, lasted 4 games before missing the year AGAIN.
Hasn’t made a start since.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
This would be a fantastic point
If Kerry Wood had changed his name to Andrew Cashner.
Otherwise….so?
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
Cashner's workload since his last year of college
2008- 73 Innings
2009- 100 innings
2010- 110 innings
2011- 15 innings, major shoulder injury in first start of the year
What is a reasonable expectation for him to throw in 2012?
I’d say 100-120 should be the absolute MAX unless we are wanting Angel Guzman that arm.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
That's your projection.
Based on pretty much nothing.
But let’s say he throws 120. So what’s the problem? Then he goes to 150-160 in 2013 (which would have been third highest this year and when, in all likelihood, the Cubs are still treading water) and then he’s ready for basically a full season in 2014.
And really… what’s better for a shoulder? To throw 120 monitored innings that are consistently spread out… or pitching in 65-75 games out of the pen while warming up for another 12-15? Just because he’d throw 40 or so fewer actual game innings doesn’t mean there’s less stress on his shoulder.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
The bullpen is universally considered to be the lighter wear situation
Hence why guys like Guzman, Wood and Prior are now trying to ply their trade there.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
I think the shoulders and elbows
of plenty of relievers would like to have a discussion with your universe.
Arms are different. Pitchers are different. Thus, they respond differently to the stresses of throwing a baseball.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Name me ONE pitcher who has shifted to the rotation because of injury issues
Better yet…..Make 2 separate lists.
List 1 for the guys who get put in the rotation because they are injured relievers.
List 2 for guys who go to the bullpen because they got injured as a starter.
I’ll bet you 50 bucks list 2 has more than 2x’s the names.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
I'm not sure what your point is.
Of course list 2 is more. Pitchers who aren’t effective as starters often get moved to the bullpen. Sometimes that’s because of injuries. And if that pitcher had an arm that truly never “bounced back”… they don’t last long as relievers, either.
I never argued in favor of list 1. But the erratic performance nature of relievers is certainly due in part to the strain of the workload. Hence why managers try not to have guys pitch three days in a row, even if they only throw one inning.
But let’s circle back to the main discussion point, since you’re careening off the rails.
My argument is that Cashner should be tried again as a starter because: he’s been groomed primarily as a starter, he has the highest upside young arm in the Cub system (or certainly above A ball… you could make a reasonable argument for Maples), starters are more valuable to a club than relievers, since he’s suffered one injury, that doesn’t preclude him from being a starter (unless there’s something we don’t know medically), and if he were to reinjure his shoulder, he could then move to the pen… after all, Kerry Wood did that.
Your argument is: Cashner got hurt last year, it was a rotator cuff tear (your projection… no evidence), some pitchers with shoulder injuries go to the bullpen and therefore have success, if he’s a starter Cashner will surely get hurt again because his arm can’t handle the strain (again, obviously projection), and therefore, the only choice is to move him to the pen… after all, Kerry Wood did it.
With that as your summary……. see if you can wrap your head around why the former argument is more well reasoned than the latter.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Dec 21, 2011 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The point you are missing is that he HASN'T been groomed to be a starter
He has started less than 50 games in SEVEN YEARS since High School.
6 games in 2008
24 games in 2009
9 games in 2010
4 games in 2011
43 games as a pro.
Conversely he has come out of the pen 66 times over that same period. 96 times if you include his college time in 2008.
The one time that they tried to dedicate him to starting full-time. He lasted a grand total of ONE game.
I’m not saying with 100% certainty that he can never be a MLB starting pitcher. I am saying that with his injury situation and track record overall, that the best course of action for the immediate future is to let him come back in the bullpen.
If he survives the year in the pen and can stay healthy. Then maybe you can revisit the situation post 2012?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Oh come on
The one time that they tried to dedicate him to starting full-time. He lasted a grand total of ONE game.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
I can't agree with...
…squandering a year of Cashner’s career seeing whether he can “survive” in the bullpen. That seems backward — give him this opportune, likely noncontending season to show that he can be a starter on a reasonably structured innings-count.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
by daver on Dec 21, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I have a feeling that is what is happening
3 of his “starts” this past year were 1 inning rehab type of outings. So the real split of his starting to relieving since 2008 is
40 starts
99 relief outings
His Winter-league outings are strictly Pen work also
http://firstinning.com/players/Andrew-Cashner-a/
So I have a feeling the plan is to pen Cashner this year.
Keep in mind that the Cubs have the diagnosis on his injury situation. We don’t know exactly what was wrong in that shoulder.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
That's true.
We don’t know the true nature of his injury. And I’ll say again: You may be eventually be proved right here. I wouldn’t be shocked if Cashner never makes it as a starter. I’d just like to see them give it a try. Maybe someone at Cubs Convention could ask about this.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
How has he not been groomed by the Cubs as a starter?
This was already explained to you.
He started the fall after signing.
He started the whole following year.
He started in the Iowa rotation the next year, then went to the pen when Hendry got desperate.
Then in 2011 he made the rotation out of ST.
His appearances post-injury out of the pen were due to inadequate time to build arm strength.
So, up until now, he has been groomed by the Cubs as a starter. This just isn’t hard to understand.
Now Theo and Jed may view him differently and I’ll defer to their knowledge. But I still see No reason Cashner shouldn’t get another shot at the rotation.
It was nice to see you post below that you didn’t know the extent of the injury after seeming so certain it was a tear and that he surely would tear it again if he started. I guess that’s progress.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Dec 21, 2011 11:55 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
40 starts 99 relief appearances since 2008
Not counting winterball this year. (all in relief).
The haven’t really EVER committed to a direction on Cashner. That is a huge part of the point I was making.
If he has started 70 games over 3 years since being drafted. Then I would agree with you. 40 starts in 3 years after a career as a college closer strikes me as not being sure WHAT he is from the previous regime.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
seems to me Shark will get the shot to start
Cash will be in the pen. just a hunch.
I think that would have been a good guess under Hendry
I’m hoping Theo/Jed is smarter than that
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
Umm
Not sure how you could count his relief appearances at TCU against the Cubs.
Not to mention that comparing appearances between starting and relieving is about the dumbest way in the world to compare them… of course a reliever racks up appearances.
Here are his real stats since joining the Cubs’ organization.
2008: 6 starts, 2 relief
2009: 24 starts, 0 relief
2010: 9 starts, 55 relief (and this has already been explained… this was Hendry desperately trying to save a floundering pen rather than a change in philosophy with Cashner)
2011: 4 starts, 8 relief (all due to rehab)
So, even if you want to use the extraordinarily flawed metric of appearances… the totals are 43 starts and 65 relief appearances.
The previous regime viewed Cashner as a starter. Even though you’re trying to make it a debate… there isn’t one.
And “career as a college closer” is, again, inaccurate. He was a closer for one season… because the coaching staff felt that was best for the team, not because Cashner couldn’t start.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Once again
He was a reliever at TWO different colleges over the course of 2 completely seperate seasons.
He started 1 real game in 2011. The other starts were of the 1 inning variety.
He spent this past winter pitching exclusively out of the pen.
He has spend exactly ONE full season since HS as a dedicated starter.
What is so controversial about what I am saying?
If we count winterball he is more than 70 to 40 relief appearances to starts. How are we so sure he has been groomed to be anything?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
I don't really care
how he was used in college. The Cubs said repeatedly he was a starter. This simply isn’t debatable.
Winter League is fairly irrelevant. Pitchers get sent there to work on things (breaking ball, command, et al.).
And with the most recent winter, again, he didn’t have enough build up time to go start and throw 5+ innings, so he essentially continued rehab/rebuild out of the pen.
What you’re saying isn’t “controversial”. It’s just wrong. You’re taking irrelevant distinctions (appearances, “full year”, discounting rehab time) to try and defend a position that’s pointlessly wrong.
But, if that’s what you understand… how about this?
Every year since he was drafted, the first pitch of the year Cashner has thrown in the Cub organization was as a starting pitcher. ’08 in XST (short outings… but extremely common for recently drafted pitchers; also starts at first stops in Boise and Daytona), ’09 A+ Daytona (and then Tennessee), ’10 Tennessee (and then Iowa; Chicago relief has been explained to you… repeatedly), ’11 Chicago.
I’d say that’s a pattern.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Well other than
not knowing if Cashner has a partial tear, him not being abused like a rented mule in HS, not having previous injury questions, and not having the second “big” injury….. they are exactly the same.
If anything, it only reinforces that Cashner should try and start… even if he’s injured again, there’s a reasonable chance to come back and be a solid reliever later.
Next.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Completely reasonable to believe
That Cashner had a shoulder injury last year….SINCE HE MISSED THE WHOLE FREAKING YEAR WITH A SHOULDER INJURY!!!!!!!
Do you think the kid just sat out last year because he was on a spiritual journey? Was it all a conspiracy to get Jim Hendry fired?
Who the hell misses a whole year of their career for a fake injury?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Reading is fundamental.
I did not say he was not injured. But there was never any announcement of a partial tear of his rotator cuff. All that was ever said was a “tweak”, then a reaggravation.
Many pitchers have had various forms of shoulder strains. Then have a poor medical staff like the Cubs and you end up with rehab issues.
It’s not that hard.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
It should be pointed out that suffering a shoulder injury does not guarantee
that you will injure it again.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think fsuapollo was questioning whether or not Cashner was injured
There’s no question Cashner was injured. The questions fsuapollo seems to be asking (at the risk of putting words in his mouth) are these:
1. was the injury due to being a starting pitcher, or just pitching in general?
2. was the injury one that would put him at more risk as a starter in the future, or was it a fluke injury?
by SouthernCub on Dec 21, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
And question 3
3. what was the actual injury (which was never fully explained)?
by SouthernCub on Dec 21, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
I'd venture it was fairly serious
Since he missed basically the whole season. My best judgement would lead me to believe it was that same partial tear that KW had back in 2005.
There just isn’t much else that can happen in that shoulder that would make him miss that much time without having to be surgically repaired.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
I already gave a reasonable explanation above.
So if you’re going to make statements like this:
My best judgement would lead me to believe it was that same partial tear that KW had back in 2005.
There just isn’t much else that can happen in that shoulder that would make him miss that much time without having to be surgically repaired.
I guess we’d all like to see a medical license.
And as a former pitcher who suffered a shoulder injury, I can tell you there’s plenty that can go wrong in a shoulder outside of a RC tear.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
This exactly.
In a twisted sense, 2012 is the perfect time to give Cashner a legit shot at the starting rotation. We’re not really expecting to contend, so give him his 20-24 starts (or set a prescribed amount of innings, factoring in high-leverage situations) and let him go. If he suffers another devastating injury, then maybe you start seriously leaning toward making him a reliever. But it’s a myth to think that just because a pitcher has been named a starter he has to throw 200 innings.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Hmmm.. I think we'd still have the makings of a solid pen.
The four names you mentioned are all effective, at least if Marmol can somewhat bounce back. We have three real exciting arms in Dolis/Carpenter/Beliveau, and I think we could find at least one effective reliever out of that group. And even though I want Cash in the rotation, if he winds up in the pen he could be a real effective reliever. And trading for Wood likely ups the chances that Cashner starts in the pen. Yes, it’d weaken the pen, but that’s the one area of the team we can probably afford to deal from.
I'm good with
this trade as long as we get one other piece with Wood. I like Marshall but this is the type of deal we need to do.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Dec 20, 2011 9:49 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Nope, not enough
One of the best established LH set-up guys for a young, largely unproven starter? Sorry, Travis is clearly not enough return.
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
Exactly what we've all been saying.
It would have to bring another player in addition to Wood.
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Merely adding my voice to the BCB choir
If Marshall goes it looks like a complete team blow-up is underway. Heck most of our offensive offense has already exited stage left..
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
This would be more of a flying retool
Wood is young but already has MLB experience. He would certainly be better than the VW Beetle full of clowns that served as the #5 spot in the rotation last year, so he helps make 2012 better and may have additional future upside (more than a Maholm/Saunders type). If Cashner can get his legs in the rotation, Z becomes very, very expendable unless he rises from the dead like Lazarus.
If the Cubs can get Wood giving up ONLY mARshall the are robbing the Reds.
I mean seriously, as great as Marshall is, the Cubs are only trading one year of service of a reliever!
Imagine Marshall puts up 3 War in 2012, then he’d be worth $15 million, minus the $3 million he’s earning that makes for $12 million of “trade value”. I hope everybody agrees that this ridiculously overstating Marshalls value.
Travis had a WAR of 1.1 last year, having a not so great year compared to 2010 and while pitching relatively few innings due to his demotion.
If you imagine he puts up 1.1. for the next 5 years, that’s 5,5, for a value of roughly $30 million. Just guessing he’ll earn $10 million in these 5 yrs, that’s a surplus value of $20 million.
So even with worst case assumptions for Wood (short of him having a heart attack throwing his first pitch) this would a be total steal for the Cubs.
by DamageControlFreak on Dec 21, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah you could have a
rotation of Demp, Garza, Z, Wood and Wells. Not bad. And who knows what will happen to Z, maybe just maybe if he is a good citizen he could get moved for a good piece to the puzzle. I think Theo realizes ( along with many) this is a project not a one move and done.
Sounds Good
Marshall is an elite late inning reliever, but I’d rather have 4 cost controlled years of a solid starting pitcher with reasonable upside than 1 year (a likely non-contending year) of an elite reliever. This is promising.
Oh.
Right. Sorry, I thought you meant FA.
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Theojed
Seem tO be all about the buy low candidates. I wonder whether this is more a reflection of the cash Ricketts is making available to him, or more a reflection of where they think the value lies.
The moves they have been making all seem to be pretty sound, but are also tiny incremental improvements over what we had left after Ramirez left. That’s fine, but at this rate it’s going to be a looooooong process to get back to relevancy.
I really wish I could know whether they are just waiting for Fielders price to come down or aren’t seriously interested. If its the latter, someone remind me to care about the cubs again in 2014 when they might be relevant again.
It appears to be searching for value.
That could be the next market inefficiency.
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Right
But if you are NBF are hoping for a competitive 2012 this plan isn’t going to make it happen. They seem to be on a 3-4 year plan, so far.
Well
… this is obviously a small part of 2012 plans, not “the” plan.
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They still need to throw a mega-$ offer at Fielder
Need the bat, need a 1B, and the minor league cupboard is bare at that position. No one as good as he is will hit FA for the next several years. Time to go all in and set out big $/year if they don’t want to sign him to a 100-year deal.
Part of it is buying low.
And I think a big part is allowing some flexibility. If guys don’t pan out, I don’t think he really enjoys the thought of having to call around and offer to pay 75% of his player’s salary for a no name prospect in return.
Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!
Not wild about this
Wood just doesn’t have a lot of upside. The guy is kind of a Randy Wells type pitcher. He just doesn’t throw hard enough to be a mid-rotation starter.
As far as Wood plus someone, I’m not sure there are a lot of parts left in the Reds system after the Latos trade. There are a few good parts (Hamilton, Mesoraco) but I kind of doubt the Reds would be willing to part with them.
I think we could get more for Marshall than this.
Send them Soto & Marshall
and get back Wood, Mesoraco, and another prospect or two??
Not necessarily advocating… just spit ballin’.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Yeah I was looking at Mesoraco.
Seems like a decent catcher with some pop. Wood is not that impressive to me. And he is smallish.
Not gonna get Mesoraco or Hamilton...
Reds just traded their other catching prospect (Grandal), top prospect in Alonzo, AND one of their top pitching prospects (Bauxberger) for Latos. I’m guessing we end up with Wood and a few C level prospects…
I would much rather see Cashner in the rotation, in limited work 2011 he looked solid. The potential is there. I also think the group of pitchers we end up with at the end of 2011 will not be the same group that shows up to ST in 2012. Z will be gone before ST and will most likely end up in Florida or Boston with the Cubbies eating the majority of his $18M due. I also think Garza will get dealt and we’ll get prospects for him. A complete blow up is what we need at this point.
In limited work.... you mean that ONE START he made the first week of the season? LOL.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Hamilton...
… you might be able to get, because he is so raw, and the Reds do seem to really want Marshall.
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Agreed
They’re not trading Mesoraco, but maybe we could pry Hamilton away from them. They’re in win now mode and Hamilton is a good two-three years away.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 21, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions
Hamilton's fun
The Dude makes Tony Campana look like a Molina.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 20, 2011 10:04 PM CST up reply actions
You're talking about Billy Hamilton.
He’s intriguing.
Take a look at his minor league SB record. If the guy could learn to take some walks, he could be a real good major league player.
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He's raw
But he really does have the athleticism and body type that could make him something more than a Juan Pierre slap hitter.
And those SB numbers are incredible. He’s just the fastest player in all of baseball right now.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 20, 2011 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
And he's only 21.
Six months younger than Starlin Castro.
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He stole 103 bases last year. Holy crap.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Need walks?
Need moar Jaramillo.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
What's In A Name?
There was a speedster HoF’er in the 19th century named Billy Hamilton. He stole 914 bases in his career.
Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.
Would be the first real lead-off hitter we've had since
Kenny Lofton,
and the second since Lou Brock?
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
If he's got a decent sinker
… could be very well suited for Wrigley.
In 208 major league innings, he’s allowed only 19 HR despite having a known launching pad for a home ballpark.
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I think my problem is..
we have enough of these type of low-ceiling players. Cashner has a higher ceiling – and could be the best pitcher on the staff.
And despite Wood only allowing 19 HR in those 208 innings, he couldn’t stay in the Reds rotation for crying out loud. I’m all for buying low, and Wood might be good – but good enough to give up arguably the best left handed reliever in the game? I don’t know.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
Wood wouldn't be a bad guy to pick up
But I think we could do better than that for Marshall, who seems to be in a lot of demand.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 20, 2011 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
Which is why you'd want another player in the deal.
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Another major league caliber player?
or a high ceiling A+ player?
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
Wasn't he the one who shoplifted?
Doesn’t he have something wrong with him mentally?
THEO!
by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 20, 2011 10:03 PM CST reply actions
Yeah.
Me too. I just doubt the Reds would be interested.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
I wonder.
They ARE looking for a closer.
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and yet Rosenthal is saying they'd rather have Marshall.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 8:23 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe they are looking at Marshall to close.
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no one is interested in an expensive, consistently inconsistent closer with god awful mechanics
Screw you, Jon Daniels
by jesus christos on Dec 20, 2011 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
UNLESS...
Jim Hendry lands a gig somewhere else… :]
There are no facts, only interpretations.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Lets Go Theo!!! 10/13/2011
Carlos Marmol is still a talented player..
so I’m sure someone could be interested. We’d have to eat a big portion of his salary, I’d imagine.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
Unfortunetly, They've prolly seen
too much of Marmol to fall for that.
There are no facts, only interpretations.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Lets Go Theo!!! 10/13/2011
You never know.
There’s always a team out there that says, “We can fix that.” They’re never right, but they always think they can.
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Carlos Marmol has absolutely NO VALUE
with his current contract, I maintain this contract was Hendry’s final nuclear bomb, middle finger to Cub fans. If you are a team that wants to contend and actually win the World Series you can never use Marmol. Can you imagine Marmol as your closer or set up man trying to win 11 games in the playoffs? Comical,walking the ballpark, I’ll still never forget the Sep24th Cubs/Cards game. No hits, four walks and one wild pitch. The man cannot throw strikes consistently and he’s almost 30 years old.
"No value"?
As I said, I think there are teams out there that would take him, thinking they can “fix” him.
I’m guessing TheoJed are trying to move him.
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not at 16 million
sorry, Al, I don’t believe that. These GM’s watch the same games we do.
Yes, they do.
But again, professionals think they know better.
$16 million for two years of Marmol doesn’t look that expensive compared to what Papelbon just got.
You could be right. But I do think Marmol COULD be moved. The Cubs might have to eat some of the money, but it would be worth it. Then Cashner could close.
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You can't use papelbon as the comp.
Papelbon and Rivera are clearly outliers.
Look at what Heath Bell got from Miami, or joe Nathan from Texas. Carlos Marmol is going to be one of the most expensive relief pitchers in the game for the next 2 seasons… and he was a GD disaster half of the time last year.
As for guys who were good, then bad, then changed teams and had some good years- brad lidge? I think that is the obvious Marmol comp at this point. Unbelievable setup man, good closer, then horrendous closer, then moving on.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Dec 21, 2011 11:47 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
The problem I had with the Marmol signing at the time it happened was that it was completely unnecessary
He was under club control for 2 years and the onus was on HIM to stay in shape and be productive. We didn’t get any kind of discount for year 3. And it totally sunk his trade value in that he was guaranteed that 10 million in 2013, no matter what kind of shape his arm was/is in.
It reeked of Jim Hendry being bored and deciding he needed to do something to create news right before spring training began.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Yes, you keep saying this,
with no basis in fact.
I suppose a team would take him, if we give them a sweetheart of a deal, but that doesn’t really prove he has value
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 8:24 AM CST up reply actions
I've been trying to think of a comparable player or players
… who had good years, then bad, then were traded somewhere and had their careers resurrected.
Can’t think of any off the top of my head, but I know there must be some.
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Look at Cardinals pitchers
the last 15 years.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Duncan did pretty well with Joel Pineiro.
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Brad Lidge
In fact, Lidge had a similar peak (2.5 WAR to Marmol’s 3 WAR) followed by one bad year (.6 WAR vs .8 for Marmol) and a large contract.
Lidge bounced back to the tune of 2.2 WAR after the trade.
Marmol was better at his peak, slightly better in his bad year, and unlike Lidge has no injury history. Lidge fetched the relatively valuable Michael Bourn in trade. I’m having trouble finding the details of Lidge’s contract, but iirc it was a similar situation to Marmol’s in terms of dollars and years.
Thanks.
That’s an excellent comp. I assume GM’s are well aware of this sort of comp.
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No hits, four walks and one wild pitch.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
by Hammer on Dec 20, 2011 10:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
"Marm just had a rough outing"
Just in case you’d forgotten the cutesy nicknames.
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That picture is incorrect for that situation.
Quade would be clapping if that situation came up.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
by Unique on Dec 20, 2011 10:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually
I could not find a pic of him standing straight up and down in the dugout with is head down. Because that is what actually happened. This is the best I could do.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
by Hammer on Dec 20, 2011 10:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hiya Hammer...Happy Holidays!
(I don’t get your comment tho???)
There are no facts, only interpretations.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Lets Go Theo!!! 10/13/2011
Hey -
From home to Mammoth for a few days and home again – ORD in the morning for the week.
I am TIRED.
Hope youre good too.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
I'm good. Have a safe trip my friend!
There are no facts, only interpretations.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Lets Go Theo!!! 10/13/2011
Wood and Corcino
would be a nice return. Eh I dunno. I was just hoping for higher upside for Marshall.
Pitched for Dayton (Low A)
last season. Throws hard (92-94) and misses a lot of bats. Gets compared to Johnny Cueto a lot. May not have the secondary pitches to be a real star, but he might develop them.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 20, 2011 10:25 PM CST up reply actions
--
May not have the secondary pitches to be a real star, but he might develop them.
All minor league pitchers
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
Too bad Yonder is already gone
I woulda been happy with that trade..
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
I am not a fan of Yonder.
I’m in the minority, but I think he’s an average 1st baseman.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
Great defensive LF, also.
Never gets old.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Yea I definitely wouldn't take a one-for-one trade for Wood
Marshall for Wood and a prospect…
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA DI Men's Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2009 & 2011 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
"Victoria Concordia Crescit"
Their 2011 WAR gap is 1.7
Marshall = 2.8
Wood = 1.1
First, what do the extra 4 years of control of Wood count for? After that, what additional compensation is needed?
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
Remember that in 2010 Wood put up 2.2 WAR in half a season of work, which is probably his floor over a fool season
where is Marshal’s best WAR was 2.8 and it will be hard for him to climb above that.
Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.
by Yossarian22 on Dec 21, 2011 12:24 AM CST up reply actions
I'm missing the logic here
Why not just move Marshall to starter? I don’t recall Marshall sucking in the rotation and he benefits from more experience now..
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
Actually, Marshall was never very good as a starter.
Career as starter: 4.86 ERA, 1.369 WHIP, 6.1 K/9 (59 starts)
Career as reliever: 2.67 ERA, 1.183 WHIP, 9.4 K/9 (233 relief appearances)
It’s pretty clear to me. He’s a reliever.
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Come on, Al.
We’ve debated this several times. Comparing Marshall’s stats as a starter right now is pretty much a wash. He’s clearly a better and different pitcher now.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
Yes, he is a better pitcher now
… because he’s a reliever.
Look at his game logs from 2009, the last year he started games. He just didn’t have the stamina to go deep into games on a consistent basis.
He’s an excellent relief pitcher. Leave him there.
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i have said it many times
he is a good Terry Mullholland type pitcher who can spot start but is most likely best left in the current set up role
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
It is better to spend money like there's no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there's no money! - Irish toast.
Terry Mulholland
… had a successful career as a starter for several seasons before being moved to that “spot” role, including being in the rotation for a World Series team (1993 Phillies).
Marshall’s career isn’t even close to Mulholland’s.
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That's not the point
He’s obviously not staying in the Cubs set-up role if he’s dealt. Marshall struggled as 23 year old rookie. He was clearly much improved the following year. Who knows how he’d perform now had he remained in the rotation. If we’re desperate for a LH starter then stick with Marshall and begin stretching him out. You suggest a largely uproven kid is an upgrade?
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
Look at the numbers!
He’s got 59 major league starts — that’s almost two full season’s worth. His performance hasn’t been good throughout four seasons worth of starting.
I’m not suggesting a 1-for-1 deal. You’d have to get more, absolutely.
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Meh, proverbial agree to disagree
I don’t think Marshall’s stats from 3-4-5 years ago is particularly compeling evidence of guaranteed failure now. Sean has proven he can get guys out in the 7th-8th inning. He doesn’t have that much mileage on his arm to worry about potential breakdown. If he’s properly stretched out I’d rather have Marshall in the rotation than Wood. As such everything depends on the value of the presumed 2nd piece. That much we agree on..
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
If you stick with Marshall as a LH Starter
That’s a one year shot. Then he’s a FA. Wood is under control for years after that.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 20, 2011 10:44 PM CST up reply actions
Obviously we aren't going to see eye to eye on this, but this:
… because he’s a reliever.
is false causation. You don’t know that he is better because he’s a reliever.
Does it play a role? Certainly possible. But I’d sure think the improved command, better action on his pitches, and confidence help, too. And all of those translate to being a SP.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
So how do you value that?
Marshall is a reliever now, but some people think he should be starter. He is under contract for 2012 and then he is a free agent.
So if the Cubs make him a starter in 2012 and he does great, what then? Is one recent year as a starter enough to justify the SP money he will cost in free agency?
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 20, 2011 11:26 PM CST up reply actions
I guess I think of that as a good problem to have
because it means he was successful as a starter.
I guess the other way to view it is if you leave him where he is and he has another very good year… he’s probably going to command $5-6M annually from a contender. Do you want to pay that for a set-up guy as the Cubs rebuild?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Leaving Marshall as a reliever has more certainty
If the Cubs decided to resign him, it would be because they could reasonable project his reliever value. But I don’t think they could do that after a successful year as a starter. It’s just not enough data to go on.
And that’s why they consider a trade for him. To gain more control and certainty.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 20, 2011 11:45 PM CST up reply actions
I don't see it that way.
You already know what you have as a LH reliever.
If you move him to the rotation and he pitches well, then you explore what kind of contract it would take to keep him. Barring a Cy Young type year, I seriously doubt he’d command more than $8-9M / year as a starter.
And I’m fine with exploring a trade.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I hope this is just the first of the leaked Marshall rumors
Because I think we can net a better deal than this.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Link
Hope the prospects are good
Could be a good trade for the cubs depending on who we get. Hope a deal for Rizzo is next.
I think they'll be okay.
I’m not expecting too much when we’re getting a cost controlled SP for a set up man (albeit a very talented one) who’s a year away from FA.
Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!
OTOH
… the Reds are “going for it”, as shown in the Latos deal. They might be willing to overpay.
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With Marshall gone
you really should just start unloading anybody else who has some value now (Garza, maybe Soto), Theo has got balls to go the total rebuild in Chicago…..Ricketts and Kenney would be smart to really reduce single game tickets, especially bleachers if the total rebuild is the plan. If the payroll is gonna be cut by 30 or so million, it’s only fair to cut the ticket prices.
well if it's March 9th
and the Cubs have traded Garza and reduced payroll by 30 million, they won’t need to hand out any wristbands this year.
They won't have to hand out any wristbands even if Garza sticks around.
We’ll see if they slash bleacher tickets to bottom barrel prices during the season again.
Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!
can't see how they get $86.00 in the bleachers
for games against the DBacks, Astros and Reds, even on a Saturday….the only games that should truly sell out are Boston and that’s because of the Red Sox fans. They also want $56.00 for nine other games.
IF this deal goes through
Theo just traded a high-end reliever, who will be getting paid big money real soon, for a starting pitcher with 5 years of control. PLUS two minor leaguers.
What part of that deal isn’t a win? Young talent with controllable years is a good thing.
Welcome to smart baseball management.
"It will happen because our major-league coaching staff is more prepared than their counterparts across the field."
by louslovechild on Dec 21, 2011 12:08 AM CST up reply actions 11 recs
Amen and rec'd.
In Theo and Jed I trust.
by KS_Cub4Life on Dec 21, 2011 12:11 AM CST up reply actions
nobody would disagree
but it’s the start of the rebuild and white flag for 2012 when you trade Marshall.
You're absolutely right..
In Theo and Jed I trust.
by KS_Cub4Life on Dec 21, 2011 12:18 AM CST up reply actions
It's one reliever
A very good reliever yes. But still one reliever. Not even close to the actual White Flag trade.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2011 12:18 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't want to be rude, but I think you are totally wrong
A. The start of the rebuild was the day Theo and Jed were hired.
B. This was a really smart move. Even in a non-rebuilding year, this is a smart move. Z is gone, no matter what people say. Cashner’s arm is questionable. Shark has 1.5 pitches: not a starter.
"It will happen because our major-league coaching staff is more prepared than their counterparts across the field."
by louslovechild on Dec 21, 2011 12:20 AM CST up reply actions
Sounds like a very good move
Wood has shown at times to be a decent Starter.
I think Marshall is better than Wood.
I think the cub would better to move him in a Garza or Soto trade or move him at the deadline.
But I love the fact that Cubs are building for the future.
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Dec 21, 2011 12:37 AM CST up reply actions
Everyone seems to love this assessment (and rightly so)
but I can’t help but see parallels between this potential deal and the possibility of a Garza deal. If I tweak it just a bit:
IF this deal goes through, Theo just traded a high-end starter, who will be getting paid big money real soon, for a starting pitcher with 5 years of control. PLUS two minor leaguers (and/or whatever else would be appropriate to receive in a Garza-magnitude deal)
What part of that deal isn’t a win? Young talent with controllable years is a good thing.
Welcome to smart baseball management.
Why do I get the feeling that a comment like this would cause a firestorm? Why doesn’t the same “smart baseball management” philosophy carry through in all phases of running the franchise? Obviously Garza has more value than Marshall, but you’d have to assume that TheoJed would be able to extract an appropriate amount of additional value in any deal, right?
So why all the angst over a possible Garza deal? Or why isn’t there more angst with a Marshall deal? Shouldn’t “smart baseball management” be in play for large deals as well as the small ones?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
by ballhawk on Dec 21, 2011 8:12 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm wondering if this is the best we could do here? Because I don't think it is.
I know there is an importance to place value on pitching in any organization. You can’t win without it. That being said, we have one of the best LH relievers in the game on the trade block, and in return we want young pitching, because of it’s importance.
However, it is has also been very difficult for this organization to develop their own power hitting at the corner positions, and we’re going through a transition where we are now without the two best run producers we’ve had at the corners in many years (Lee and Ramirez).
Shouldn’t we be placing a priority on acquiring young corner power over young pitching at this moment, because it’s more difficult to find and has a higher mark up price on the Free Agent market?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Because Marshall has been filling a role that can be replaced more readily than SP
by ClarkFan on Dec 21, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Simply put, but I think that's precisely the answer.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
I understand that
and that’s why the expected return would have to be significantly greater for a Garza deal than a Marshall deal. What that multiplier is I have no idea, but I’d have to think/hope that TheoJed have a pretty good idea.
The point I’m trying to make is that smart baseball management should be an acceptable philosophy across all layers of running a club – not just for the small deals.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The part where you trade the best lefty reliever in baseball
for highly questionable starter? I hate this deal unless the prospects are really good.
I am not opposed to trading Marshall but just because you get a young pitcher under control for 4 years does not in fact make that pitcher good. Wood is far to uneven. I assume Theo/Jed see something in Wood but trading one the top relievers in baseball for a pitcher who spend time in the minors last year and had an ERA just below 5.00 is not my idea of a slam dunk win.
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 21, 2011 8:42 AM CST up reply actions
What more do you want for a reliever that you don't control in 2013?
The control of Wood (with uneven production) is matched to the non-control of Marshall (with even production).
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
For possibly the top lefty reliever in baseball?
I want more than highly unreliable starter who the Reds don’t even really have a spot for.
Perhaps a really good 1B/3B prospect and a vet reliever. I don’t know know but I want more.
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 21, 2011 9:39 AM CST up reply actions
Price tag is WAAAAAAAY too high for a middle reliever
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
Marshall is NOT a "middle reliever"
He may be the top set up guy in baseball. What did the Yankees pay for Soriano again?
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 21, 2011 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
He's been used as a long reliever as well as a one inning guy.
He’s a middle reliever.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
The R. Soriano signing is an awful comp.
First off, it was the Yankees. Second, the signing was done by Hank, over the strenuous objection of Brian Cashman. Third, Soriano WAS a closer, and even though the Yankees had an incumbent, they still had to pay him like one.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
For possibly the top lefty reliever in baseball - For 1 season
No matter what the projections are for Marshall or Wood, there is one indisputable fact – Sean Marshall will be a free agent in 2013.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
And ...
the Reds are going for it in 2012.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Which is why they're willing...
to give up Wood and 2 other minor leaguers to add another to their pile of possible late-inning relievers, which may or may not include Francisco Cordero.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 22, 2011 12:25 AM CST up reply actions
Mike Adams
Interesting that Hoyer traded Mike Adams to the Rangers this last season. Adams and Marshall are comparable, not only as left relievers, but, I believe both are entering their final arb year before free agency.
Here is Baseball America’s bit on that trade.
We’ll see as far as Wood goes. I had thought, until reading that piece, that the Padres got significantly more for Adams. Wood has the upside of being a big league pitcher rather than AA. But, he has some warts certainly. To me, he seems comparable to either of the guys the Padres got from Texas.
That leaves the question of the unknown prospects. If they are meh, I won’t be thrilled with the deal.
Eamus Ursuli!
Her is what Travis wood projects as:
Pete Richert (992)
Paul Maholm (989)
Charlie Leibrandt (988)
Ricky Romero (984)
Trevor Wilson (983)
Lou Brissie (982)
Mark Guthrie (980)
Mike Jones (979)
Johnny Broaca (979)
Atlee Hammaker (979)
I hated Atlee Hammaker when he was with the Giants.
Now here is Sean Marshall:
Kent Mercker (966)
Gerry Arrigo (966)
Mike Paul (963)
Kenny Rogers (958)
Grant Jackson (957)
Willie Hernandez (955)
John Henry Johnson (955)
Paul Lindblad (955)
Roy Henshaw (953)
Ed Vande Berg (952)
So you are trading a middle aged Kent Merker for a young Pat Mahlom.
Not sure if this is a great trade. It would package Garza and Marshall for a bigger prospects package.
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Dec 21, 2011 12:28 AM CST reply actions
Garza is his own big haul by himself.
That is assuming that Garza is gone.
Marshall was due for a large pay day very soon.
Using your logic, you are trading a middle aged Kent Merker who will make 8 million a year soon, for a young, controlled PAUL Maholm. The same guy who pretty much everyone agreed 2 days ago was a great addition.
"It will happen because our major-league coaching staff is more prepared than their counterparts across the field."
by louslovechild on Dec 21, 2011 12:36 AM CST up reply actions
I like the move I just think they can get more for Marshall.
The Jays could use Garza now that they lost the Darvish sweepstakes. They could use Marshall as well. The cubs might be able to get two top 25 prospects and 2 tops 75 prospects out of the deal.
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Dec 21, 2011 12:41 AM CST up reply actions
Problem in adding Garza is...
the Reds just dealt all their best prospects for Latos. Not much left besides Mesoraco.
Wood upside >>>> Paul Maholm
Maholm is solid and I’m all for signing him, but Wood, IMO, has the potential of a #2. He was pretty impressive his rookie season and had some injury problems last season. Only time will tell though.
Right, and without having to pay...
…the actual Paul Maholm.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
What about a couple of these?
Neftali Soto (21 year old 1B with power)
Juan Francisco
Daniel Corcino
Could be a decent return for an RP. I love Marshall, but he is just a good RP and we won’t be good for awhile. This is going to be a long-term build process here, therefore no Prince but hopefully Rizzo.
Francisco doesn't fit the Theo mold.
He doesn’t walk as his minor league BA is .286 with a .317 OBP.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
also the Reds are unrealistically high on Francisco
Dusty and Walt view him as not only Rolen’s replacement, but as a superstar in the making.
Contributing little more than than snark and wittiness to SBN since 2007.
I wouldnt mind seeing Frazier in the deal.
depending on who the 3rd piece is.
what are the odds
we get wood and prospects and flip to get rizzo. Seems like a log jam for 3 4 and 5 spot to me
Mike Brown is the true definition of a businessman:
1.Build bare essentials to run business(PB Stadium)-✔
2.Hire cheap players-✔
3.When you suck don't give in to anyone's demands-✔
4. Change is a bad thing-✔
by RIP Slim on Dec 21, 2011 2:52 AM CST via Android app reply actions
I'm fine with flipping them for Rizzo.
I think Rizzo is a big addition. Either he or Prince MUST be added. And to me it seems like we’re going the Rizzo route.
I'm hearing
they are decent prospects, not just filler garbage players. who knows.. the media is such garbage I don’t know what to believe
Mike Brown is the true definition of a businessman:
1.Build bare essentials to run business(PB Stadium)-✔
2.Hire cheap players-✔
3.When you suck don't give in to anyone's demands-✔
4. Change is a bad thing-✔
by RIP Slim on Dec 21, 2011 6:35 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
If they deal ends up Marshall for Rizzo...
I will be very pleased.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 22, 2011 12:27 AM CST up reply actions
also
I like the direction we are going. low risk high upside players. I think we should continue this trend with the exception being fielder. too much power to pass up. I find it hard that Theo would go with a dollar store lineup. I mean he moved hell and high water to get A Gonzalez so I think its in his blood to snag a big fish once and awhile.
Mike Brown is the true definition of a businessman:
1.Build bare essentials to run business(PB Stadium)-✔
2.Hire cheap players-✔
3.When you suck don't give in to anyone's demands-✔
4. Change is a bad thing-✔
by RIP Slim on Dec 21, 2011 3:00 AM CST via Android app reply actions
Seems like Theo has a thing for the past very high draft picks
Stewart, Maholm, and now Wood (#2 overall pick in ’05). Just a trend I noticed. Jeff Bianchi was also high on the Royals prospect lists before some injuries derailed that.
He's been watching too much Jerry Angelo LOL.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
The Bears used to
rule out trading for anyone anybody else drafted. Theo remembers who he liked five years back.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
He wasn't the #2 pick
Wood was a 2nd round opcik, #60 overall.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2011 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
I don't see the need for this trade.
Marshall’s one of the more reliable pitchers we have in any capacity. Don’t see why the grass is greener in this case.
(full disclosure: big fan of his; I’d like to see him be part of any potential improvement in the team’s fortunes after going through the bad times so his being traded at this point would suck just for that reason.)
We're trading a player at peak value, before we have to pay him impact dollars.
It’s a very smart move, and it’s the kind of move that should be happening consistently no matter what our W-L record is. These are the kind of trades Tampa likes to make.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
its unfortunate
but its just like stocks. sell high. buy low(assuming there is potential)
Mike Brown is the true definition of a businessman:
1.Build bare essentials to run business(PB Stadium)-✔
2.Hire cheap players-✔
3.When you suck don't give in to anyone's demands-✔
4. Change is a bad thing-✔
by RIP Slim on Dec 21, 2011 6:38 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
I was just hoping for a better return... but this deal is no sure thing.
There is surely another suitor for Marshall as well.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Hopefully
Theo’s phone rang all night with opposing GMs offering better packages.
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
Hoping the same!
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
That would be really nice
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 21, 2011 8:43 AM CST up reply actions
In terms of the timing of any Marshall trade.... what would net a better return?
Before the season (while Marshall is healthy)?
Or mid-season when playoff contenders sometimes get desperate and bidding wars happen (with risk that Marshal could get hurt)?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
FA compensation
One other aspect impacting Marshall’s trade value is the new CBA. If he is traded once the season starts the receiving team would no longer be eligible for draft compensation if he leaves as a free agent.
Does that outweigh the increased desperation a team may face come July? Who knows, but, it certainly alters a players perceived value.
Eamus Ursuli!
What is Wood's ceiling?
Josh alluded above to not thinking that highly of Wood’s ceiling. I would be interested to hear more from him or some of the others around who know more about his prospects to become a front end starter.
I did find a couple of links from his days as a prospect:
Red Legs blog in 2010
Baseball America in 2009
Eamus Ursuli!
If we are able to continually improve the rotation over the next couple of years,
this is the kind of guy that could (no sure thing) settle as a decent #3, and eventually become a very good #4 3 years from now, say behind an extended Garza (or other front-end starter gained either via trade or FA), Cashner and McNutt (dream scenario, I know).
As Cub's fans, recently, we are not used to the concept
of selling high. We all wanted a change, so now we are going to get it and we will have to stomach trades that may not seem “popular” (Nomar traded by Red Sox). If that means trading away one of our favorite, trusted setup men, to rebuild for the future, so be it. This is not Jim Hendry trading away Gorzo for two no name minor leaguers.
Boise Hawks Tweeting
McNutt or Cashner may be involved in a Rizzo deal.
Grab some popcorn, folks.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Keep Cashner, trade McNutt.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
It would take a nice return
for me to okay either, but yeah Cash looks >>>>McNutt today.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Do you think McNutt for Rizzo straight up is fair?
Both had down seasons last year, so I don’t know.
It will be a package deal, methinks.
I would be unsurprised if it’s a 4 team deal. Reds/Cubs/Padres/Red Sox getting Theo compensation.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
I doubt it.
Rizzo at least had an outstanding minor league season .331 / .404 / .652.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
How did Rizzo have a down year?
maybe in limited MLB time he did, but the man crushed minor league pitching last season.
The Boise Hawks tweet
… links to this Bruce Levine article from two days ago. Here’s what it says about Cashner & McNutt:
The Cubs still owe the Padres compensation for acquiring Hoyer. Any type of trade could solve that issue as well. The Padres are looking for young pitching and may inquire about Andrew Cashner or minor leaguer Trey McNutt.
That’s a lot less definitive than the Boise Hawks tweet.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
The Levine piece preceded the Wood-for-Marshall firestorm, though.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Exactly.
It’s probably not related.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
No Way
I wouldn’t trade Marshall straight up for Cliff Lee. It doesn’t do any good to have good starters if the bullpen is a bunch of chumps and outside of Marshall it has been that way far too often. Marshall should be the centerpiece of our bullpen period. No way I make this trade even if we won’t compete for a few years.
by Hollywood67 on Dec 21, 2011 8:57 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
LOL. It doesn't do any good to have good relievers if the starters are a bunch of chumps.
You need to have a rotation first, to get the ball in your bullpen’s hands with a chance to win.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
So salaries aside
You wouldn’t trade Marshall’s 2.8 WAR (2011) for Cliff Lee’s 6.7 WAR (2011)?
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2011 9:10 AM CST up reply actions
6.7 is too uneven?
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
NO! Because....clearly middle relievers are more valuable than some of the best pitchers in the game
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 9:15 AM CST up reply actions
I know, I'm silly
I think I’ll go to games in the 9th inning and watch them play back to the 1st inning.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2011 9:21 AM CST up reply actions
70 good innings is better than 200 good innings.
Makes sense to me.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
Bruce Sutter>>Tom Seaver
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
I wouldn’t trade Marshall straight up for Cliff Lee
If you want people to take you seriously, its better if you don’t let other people know you hold ridiculous opinions like this.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 9:14 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Domonic Brown, and we're good
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Must recommend...
Better to let half the people think you’re an idiot than letting everyone know for certain.
by Damen Jackson on Dec 21, 2011 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
If the starters are bad,
What point is there in having a good bullpen?
Author at Acme Packing Company, SB Nation's Green Bay Packers blog.
Sign Prince Fielder!
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Dec 21, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
If the bullpen is bad what is the point of having good starters?
The bottom is loaded with nice people, Albert. Only cream and bastards rise
by Doggie Stalker on Dec 21, 2011 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
Holy crap this is such a ridiculously stupid argument
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
Wow.
You’ve got it completely backwards. You need both good starters and a good bullpen, but it won’t help the bullpen if the starters are terrible. If the bullpen is bad and the starters are good, at least you have the chance of getting wins. But if the starters are bad, the bullpen won’t be able to pick up the slack.
If you had watched any Cubs games over the past few years, you would have seen this play out, over and over.
Author at Acme Packing Company, SB Nation's Green Bay Packers blog.
Sign Prince Fielder!
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Dec 21, 2011 1:21 PM CST up reply actions
Well, for one thing...
…there’s a better chance of a good starter throwing a complete game than a good reliever doing the same.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Interesting.
You’ve got it exactly backward.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Well played.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 22, 2011 12:30 AM CST up reply actions
Not sure if this has been mentioned already ...
but I gotta believe TheoJed did this because they didn’t like the Marmol market. I can’t see them trading both guys, but Marshall for a young, cost-controlled starter makes a ton of sense to me.
Bullpen would be Marmol, Wood, Russell, Shark, Cashner, Carpenter, Maine?
A lot hinges on James Russell, but I’d make this deal.
Also, getting Wood and not Maholm saves a good big of coin — possibly for that first baseman a lot of us are hoping to see in Cubbie blue.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Rizzo
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
by timh815 on Dec 21, 2011 9:15 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The Reds site had a comment,
Those had better be 2 minor prospects.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Anybody else see this?
A Marshall-for-Wood deal could be the first of a flurry by Epstein. Keep an eye on the possibility of acquiring 14-game winner Matt Harrison from Texas for Marlon Byrd and others (Wells?) or even a major deal with Garza (Blue Jays, Yankees, Red Sox).
My guess is the Garza mention was boilerplate, because he’s been discussed so much this offseason. But the level of detail about Byrd, Wells and Harrison was surprising. I have no idea why Texas would make such a deal, though.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Please fasten your seatbelts,
and keep your hands inside your car throughout the entire ride. Do not unfasten belts until the ride has stopped.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
I agree - I can't imagine such a deal happening
A young, LH starter in just his first year of arbitration eligibility for one year ($5+ million) of Marlon Byrd – a mediocre CF who doesn’t really upgrade their offense or defense?
That sounds like a typical Phil Rogers piece of [junk].
You're apparently seeing a level of detail I'm not.
Keep an eye on the possibility of acquiring 14-game winner Matt Harrison from Texas for Marlon Byrd and others (Wells?)
Seems like blind spitballing to me.
Honest question, when was the last time a Chicago beat writer actually hit on one of their trade or signing predictions?
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 9:22 AM CST up reply actions
probably when Jim Hendry leaked it to them
and then they wrote, verbatim, what Jim Hendry told them was happening.
So i you can give you can take it.
I just meant ...
that it wasn’t as simple as “the Cubs are talking to Texas about Marlon Byrd.”
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Naturally.
But why would they give up Matt Harrison to get him?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Agreed
It would make great sense from the Cubs perspective, but it would make no sense from the Rangers perspective. Just a crazy idea from Rogers here.
Why so uncertain????
TJ,,,,I am beginning to think that repeating punctuation is a good idea in any situation…..
Eamus Ursuli!
I know....
I did pick up the sarcasm,,,, but thought it funny to see you break from your usual punctuation habits….
Eamus Ursuli!
Yeah, it was actually less than that
Because Phil’s not even saying those talks are happening. I’m not trying to get on you, EG. I’m just tired of the Chicago beatwriters in general.
They seem to be little more than fantasy sports team owners who have a column in a major newspaper. They think up a trade they’d like to see happen, and then float it out there as “might be happening”
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 9:46 AM CST up reply actions
I don't agree with that assessment.
I think the Chicago writers are all really struggling to get sources inside the Epstein front office.
But … this mention by Rogers was just SO out of nowhere and relatively detailed that I thought it was worth mentioning. Maybe it just shows that he’s willing to extrapolate even more these days.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Ha -- I don't disagree with that assessment
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
No.
Don’t include Jae-Hoon Ha with Marshall.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Huh?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Wait - so you don't disagree with your own assessment of not agreeing with Nunya's assessement?
or you’re disagreeing with your original assessment of not agreeing with Nunya’s assessment?
Either way, I think I believe that no amount of speculating via twitter can ever lead to a rebuilding effort because, after all…
…this isn’t Pittsburgh.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
relatively detailed
Again, he threw two names against a wall and then added in “others”
I’m not seeing the detail. I’m seeing random guessing.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
He mentions names from both sides.
That’s all I meant.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
OK.
I don’t think that’s a massive amount of detail, considering I’ve seen quite a few inaccurate guesses include names from both sides, but I’m going to let this go now.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
Gee, thanks.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
lol!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 21, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
Blind spitballing is what Uncle Phil does best.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
This trade is like putting Garza up on a tee for Rogers
It gives him free reign to speculate.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2011 9:27 AM CST up reply actions
Free reign to speculate. All the guy does is speculate... badly.
Hey Phil, you’re a baseball reporter. Here’s an idea: report something!
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Report something? Oh, you mean factually accurate?
Humbug.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
BWAHAHAHAHA! Phil Rogers building a house on the moon.
How in the world would Texas deal Harrison for anything right now when they’re trying to get back to the World Series, lost CJ Wilson, and have bid for Darvish? Let alone the sack of crap Rogers proposes in that blurb.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Because they still have 7 starters for 5 spots...
even with Wilson walking, assuming they replace him with Darvish. I don’t think they’re giving up Harrison for anything, but they have many young pitchers and not as much young hitting. I could see a 3-way deal with Garza (maybe more such as Marlon Byrd) going somewhere, that team sending young hitting to the Rangers and Harrison (maybe more) ending up with the Cubs… but it’s one of them fairy-land type deals.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 22, 2011 12:36 AM CST up reply actions
So would EVERYBODY
which is a pretty good clue that it’s not happening.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 9:48 AM CST up reply actions
I'd pay for his plane ticket.
Not only does it open up a spot for Jackson, but the Cubs will also receive their best pitcher in return.
THEO!
by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 21, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
Marlon is one of the only guys to cheer for right now
I just don’t get that same feeling with Castro.
Marlon's a declining veteran ...
who will be gone after 2012 no matter what.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Because he hustles and is a nice guy.
While both things are true, they’re pretty meaningless considering his continuing decline, age, price and his complete lack of patience at the plate.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
And I would add
that his hustle and attitude have seemed to stand out noticeably compared to the majority of his teammates.
I agree, I’d rather have a better player… but IMO the fans get behind the effort.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on Dec 21, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
personally
i think marlon byrd is the one thing not to root for. he is jim hendry’s model Free agent. cant hit, nice guy, cant hit,old, cant hit.
its not Marlon Byrds fault, but i seriously want marlon Byrd off of the Cubs.
So i you can give you can take it.
by epsilon on Dec 21, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Correct...he would be a great guy to chat with at a bar....or be a coach someday.....
But he needs to be playing elsewhere next year not batting 3rd for the Cubs.
last year i created an
Easy-Ed-esque hatred of Marlon Byrd, its tempered in the offseason but i’m sure it’ll come roaring back if i see him batting third swinging at the first pitch and grounding to second.
So i you can give you can take it.
One word...
apathy. Marlon Byrd, in the last year of his contract, on a team that will have a hard time cracking 70 wins, is the least of the Cubs’ problems.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 22, 2011 12:38 AM CST up reply actions
Consumate pro
I view him as favorably as a professional as I do Mike Cameron, which is saying a lot. But Byrd on the roster right now is example 1,035 of what the hell is wrong with the Cubs. This was a nice deal for the first couple of years, when the Cubs got good productivity, at an arguably below-market cost. Now, he’s in the last year, at what? 6.5 million, and the expectations of him having a great year are pretty low. He really should have been traded at the deadline last year when his value had peaked and there were prospects to be had, but here he is.
One can only hope there’s a deal out there where the Cubs can get a useful long-term piece in return. But I’m not holding my breath.
by Damen Jackson on Dec 21, 2011 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He seems like a good guy... but I want winners!
He should have been traded last year, but I think the injury and poor play thereafter hurt any chance of that. Given that he wasn’t traded, I think he should be traded this offseason if possible.
by SouthernCub on Dec 21, 2011 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
Seems like a good guy is right.
We know almost nothing about the private lives of these people nor should we. Who cares if they’re good guys? Marlon Byrd will not be at my house again this year for Christmas Eve dinner so I don’t really care if he’s a great fellow or not. What I do care about is his inability to get on base.
I think this is also reason number 1,035 on why Jim Hendry wasn't a very good GM
His resume is littered with players who were handed contracts that were a year or two too long. It doesn’t help that it seems as if he was bidding against himself to add those years most of the time.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
I respect the hell out of Marlon Byrd, and I’d argue with those who say (or imply) that he has no value. But he’s clearly not part of the future of this team.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Except...
Mike Cameron was one of the most underrated players of his generation, especially when he was healthy. Marlon Byrd’s lucky Jim Hendry kept his job as long as he did.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 22, 2011 12:40 AM CST up reply actions
I personally lost any sentimentality I had for him during the whole Starlin Castro getting spiked thing.
He seemed to underline the fact that last year’s Cubs weren’t a team.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Fair point.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
confused?
you dont get the feeling to cheer for Starlin Castro? but you do for Marlon Byrd?
So i you can give you can take it.
No. Can't cheer for a triple up the gap.
Too boring. Better if he stops at second and smiles.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
I want the guy to succeed as much as anyone else here does
But the guy gives off a vibe that I can’t attach to. I’m sure he cares, but I guess I don’t see him as an enthusiastic exciting player.
Call me crazy....
But a rotation of Garza, Wood, Maholm, Dempster, and Z isn’t bad at all. Sure there’s no “ace” but all of them are above average, and the bullpen would still be pretty good without Marshall.
THEO!
by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 21, 2011 9:49 AM CST reply actions
Well, one would hope...
that this might be a precursor to a Garza deal, especially if they’re still looking at Maholm as well. But in any case, I won’t complain about spinning (an admittedly very good) middle reliever off for a legit starter any day.
by Damen Jackson on Dec 21, 2011 9:54 AM CST up reply actions
I bet this means we keep Garza and forget about Maholm.
Wood is, basically, a younger, cheaper Maholm, who probably isn’t as sure of a bet but who has a little more upside.
Call me crazy, but this basically saves the Cubs $10 million in 2012 (Maholm and Marshall’s salaries). Sets things up nicely for Fielder, if you ask me.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
or
Rizzo and Soler.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
One Prince realizes that he won't be getting 10 years, the Cubs are clearly his only option. Look at this...
Heyman also hears from people close to Fielder that the 27-year-old may prefer to stay in the East or Central time zones as opposed to playing on the West Coast.
THEO!
by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 21, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
I hear
Prince prefers to open his presents on Christmas day, not Christmas Eve.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
I hate to sound like Al, but that means nothing.
people close to Fielder that the 27-year-old may prefer to stay in the East or Central time zones as opposed to playing on the West Coast.
My first question would be…“why?”
My second comment would be, MAY? That’s about as vague as you can get
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
And if you read the rest of the post, the Cubs no longer appear to be among the most interested teams.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Well, that's not actually what he said
The Cubs are said to interested but the status of their pursuit, and that of the Jays, remains unclear.
Which I think is actually the only really accurate part of Heyman’s report. If there is one thing we can say about the Cubs’ chasing of Fielder it is that the ACTUAL interest in him is completely unclear. One day we’re the front runner, the next we’re not interested, then the day after that we’re the front runners again.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
That's why I said 'appear'.
But let’s punt on the elgato-Nunya semantic argument for the day, OK?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
It's not really a semantic argument.
Not knowing the Cubs interest does not equal the Cubs not appearing to be very interested.
OMG
Fine. I misspoke. I’m a terrible person. Can we freaking move on?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Settle down francis
You misrepresented what the article was saying because that’s how you read it.
Getting pissed off because others don’t see it that way is a bit of an overreaction.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
You are telling me to settle down? YOU?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Children, that is enough.
Please stop.
Author at Acme Packing Company, SB Nation's Green Bay Packers blog.
Sign Prince Fielder!
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Dec 21, 2011 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
I want it to stop.
I acknowledged that I misspoke.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I'm sorry I forced you to continue posting after you wanted to stop.
I’ll never do it again
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
What do you want here?
I said I misspoke, and you wouldn’t let it go.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Why, well, because the west coast doesn't get as much publicity because the games start so late...
And as for may, well, probably because there’s always room for reconsideration.
THEO!
by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 21, 2011 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
Or May means it a complete and total guess by random people "close' Fielder.
Again, that report has almost no actual content
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
I think he was answering a general "why" there, not the exact "why"
there are lots of reasons why he could prefer to play in the Eastern/Central time zone: more publicity, closer to family/friends, wife’s preference to stay closer to family or friends, etc.
Whether or not any of those reasons matter (or whether or not Fielder actually prefers to play away from the West) remains to be seen.
by SouthernCub on Dec 21, 2011 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
My beef is with the MAY
Because if you add may in there, you’re basically admitting you don’t know. Which makes the entire sentence pretty pointless.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
50% chance of rain
It will, or it won’t.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
LOL
Author at Acme Packing Company, SB Nation's Green Bay Packers blog.
Sign Prince Fielder!
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Dec 21, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
There was a time ...
when speculation was that CC Sabathia wouldn’t sign with the Yankees because he didn’t like NYC.
Money cures a lot of dislikes.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Have you ever tried to adjust your watch...
…when you fly out west? Man, it’s really hard.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Soler, sure.
But I just don’t see the Cubs having the pieces to trade for Rizzo. The only two guys who would make sense for the Padres are Trey McNutt and Andrew Cashner (or Wood, if the Cubs acquire him). And, if they did that, would wouldn’t they just be filling one hole but creating another?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I don't think
trading anyone of those guys would create a hole for us. McNutt certainly isn’t projected to be in the rotation this year. If we have Wood, we would have him on top of all the starters we hae now (since we’d have moved Marshall, not a starter for him). And they don’t seem to be counting on Cashner to anchor a rotation spot.
I’ve mentioned before that there may be a bunch of guys in our system that were highly valued by the last administration, and are well thought of by other teams that Theo and Jed don’t like. Cashner and McNutt could be two of those guys. I could easily see them moving guys like that for guys like Rizzo that they might covet.
I don’t see them getting a guy like Wood from the Reds and then immediately flipping him, particularly since Theo tried to get him once already with the Sox.
examples include
Colvin
LeMahieu
Or anyone else who has to hit .280 to get on base 30% of the time.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
The idea of turning Marshall into Rizzo is rather intriguing though
Probably other pieces involved but if the centerpiece is Wood (via Marshall), I’d say that’s a pretty good turn of events.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
And Beltran after dealing Soriano
Gotta have a second bat or Fielder leads the league in BBs and LOBs.
Well, FWIW....
Wood’s ERA away from Great American Ballpark was 3.90 last year. and GAB rated 8th among all ballparks in ballpark factor.
THEO!
by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 21, 2011 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
I've watched him pitch in person...
a few times over the last few seasons. I think this would work out fine for the Cubs.
by Damen Jackson on Dec 21, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
Reeds back!
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Source: #Cubs in agreement with free-agent OF Reed Johnson on one-year deal. Pending physical. #MLB
THEO!
by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 21, 2011 9:59 AM CST reply actions
Good with that.
Does make you wonder about the rest of the outfield mix, particularly if TheoJed are really in on Coco Crisp.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
This signing probably means Crisp is no longer on the list.
JMO.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I don't think that's the case at all, Al.
Were the Cubs really looking at Crisp as a fourth or fifth outfielder?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I agree
The speculation with regard to Crisp was that he’d play LF (which would of course be contingent upon Soriano getting traded). So getting Johnson doesn’t really change that at all.
That said, I don’t suspect that Crisp is a high likelihood anyway.
by SouthernCub on Dec 21, 2011 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
Front-page fanshot on this topic now posted.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Man, our outfield is REALLY unimpressive
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
Both in the present and the future...
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 22, 2011 12:49 AM CST up reply actions
Mike Adams
Hoyer acquired two high-upside AA pitchers from the Rangers for Mike Adams. Those two guys would be B/B+ guys on a Sickels-type grading scale. Mike Adams had a year and a half of team control at the time of the trade, Marshall has one year. Adams is a righty, Marshall is a left. Otherwise they are pretty comparable talents, and interestingly the reliever in question is potentially being moved by the same GM (Hoyer).
I don’t know how you’d grade Wood. In 2010, he looked like a big part of the Reds future. After a bad 2011 Baseball America doesn’t project him to be part of the Reds future rotation.
Perhaps Wood has as much value as one of the guys moved in the Adams deal, but we would certainly need to get another quite significant player in return. I’m not going to throw out specific names from the Reds system because that’s pretty pointless, but history would suggest that we should expect a top 10-type prospect fairly far in along in the system to go with Wood.
Too bad they moved Grandal, he would’ve been a really nice get.
Missed this post, but I touched on the Adams trade below
Actually, neither Erlin nor Wieland are high-upside pitchers. They are likey BOR starters, with #3 ceilings. Wood is essentially Erlin, so we would need the 2 prospects to equal Wieland to make the deal comparable.
Wood's Splits:
His “Away” splits make this look like a great deal:
IP: 135.2
ERA: 3.58
WHIP: 1.18
AVG: .237
Do it.
That includes 2010, when he was good
in 2011 his road whip was 1.48 with a .780 OPS against.
Sure...
…they are career splits. They include 2010 & 2011.
He has bad numbers at Great America. He will play at Great America less post-trade.
Clear enough?
Wrigley and GAB aren't all that different. Clear enough?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
GAB doesn't play like a big park
during cold wether. Wrigley does. Lumbering OFers are very dangerous in Wrigley. Hence, our bad OF defense historically, since we avoid speed historically.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Stats=Clarity
Produce the stats to back it up.
Park factors say you are wrong: http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor
But, there may be a better stat out there…if so, produce it.
Also, Wood’s Day/Night splits favor day pitching as well.
That was last year
Go back a few years and you’ll see most years Wrigley and GAB have relatively similar park factors.
Yes, they do
Yes, last year Wrigley placed much farther down the list. If it is frigid into late May / early June again that trend may continue.
Using your own link to look through the previous years…
2010: Wrigley 3rd, GAB T12th
2009: Wrigley 3rd, GAB 18th
2008: GAB 7th, Wrigley 8th
2007: Wrigley 2nd, GAB 7th
2006: GAB 1st, Wrigley 6th
2005: GAB 4th, Wrigley 15th
2004: Wrigley 5th, GAB 27th!!!
2003: Wrigley 11th, GAB 14th
So… I’d say it is pretty safe to say that last year was an outlier for Wrigley. Wrigley has been higher than GAB 5 times in 9 years (and another they were back to back). Wrigley is also more consistently high. So I feel confident in my statement that the parks aren’t “all that different”.
As for Wood’s splits… um… SSS (less than 100 career innings during the day). And at best the splits are inconclusive. Lower ERA during the day, but the other peripherals are a lot closer. His WHIP is higher during the day, his HR rate is better at night, his SO/BB (and raw SO rate) is better at night, and BABIP shows he’s been less lucky at night than during the day. It’s not listed, but those peripherals tell me his FIP and xFIP would be better at night than during the day.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
And I am saying
he wasn’t good ANYWHERE in 2011.
He will play at GAB less in 2012 if he becomes a Cub, but if he pitches like he did in 2011 it won’t matter.
Right
basically, he was a very effective pitcher in 2010, and not a very effective pitcher in 2011. And he has been better on the road than at home in general. In 2010, the discrepancy was incredibly large (.575 OPS against in away games).
by SouthernCub on Dec 21, 2011 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
Another interesting split is Wood's Day/Night split
He’s been consistently better in day games. Coincidence? Possibly. But I seem to remember Theo making a big deal about targeting guys whose strengths fit Wrigley. It’s certainly plausible that Theo wants guys that are good in day games, since the Cubs play more of them than anyone.
As for the deal, I really like Wood, and I think he’s being a little underrated. He was really good in 2010 and Bill James projects him to perform as roughly a #3 in 2012 with a 3.75 ERA and a 3.83 FIP. No doubt he had some ugly results in 2011, but he was unlucky. His FIP of 4.06 put him in the Trevor Cahill, Carl Pavano, Ted Lilly range. I think he’s a pretty solid bounce back candidate.
Good point.
I seem to recall Theo emphasizing park effects as well.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Then there's this
@BleacherNation
Brett Taylor
RT @EyeOnBaseball: I’ve been told the #Reds-#Cubs Wood-Marshall deal is not as ‘close’ as reported. certainly nowhere near done….
Good
Gives some other teams a chance to up the ante.
"It will happen because our major-league coaching staff is more prepared than their counterparts across the field."
by louslovechild on Dec 21, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
I'd really like to see this team make a move that is actually exciting soon.
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
god
me too.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 21, 2011 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
We agree again.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
A suite, perhaps.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
I would too,
I’m not sure it’s gonna happen this off-season though
You mean I just Z'd through this thread for nothing?!
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
These writers couldn't predict what would happen if everyone was saying the same thing.
They’d post a contradicting tweet just to garner some headlines.
Author at Acme Packing Company, SB Nation's Green Bay Packers blog.
Sign Prince Fielder!
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Dec 21, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
The Mike Adams deal set the bar for elite relievers
As such, I want like to see a comparable return for Marshall. Wood is probably equal to Erlin. Both soft-tossing lefties that don’t issue free passes and get flyballs. That means the 2 other prospects need to equal Joe Wieland in value.
A name that wouldn’t suprise me to see mentioned would be Neftali Soto. A former catcher, turned 1B who absolutely raked in AA last year at the age of 22.
Soto played some 3rd in 2009
And it looks like he was originally a SS.
I wonder if there is any chance of him being a possible 2nd baseman? We sure could use an offensive upgrade over there.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
You're right
He was only tried out as C to try to maximize his offensive potential. He’d be a nice get if he can play even average D at 3B. Keep Vitters in AA and let Soto man 3B in AAA.
Wouldn't hate that
Although Soto has more offensive upside. Frazier could be a DeRo type player, which carries a good bit of value.
Reds may go for that.
They have Janish, Cairo and Valaika already for reserve infielders. I guess the question is how much the Reds feel Frazier’s top-prospect status has fallen.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
so we'll have
Soto and Soto, and Wood and Wood.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 21, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
The play by play would be awesome!
“Soto fields the bunt, and fires it home to Soto who catches Braun in a rundown and throws it back to Soto, now Soto throws to Wood who tosses it back to Soto while Soto dives out of the way….he’s out!!!!!
Wood looks like he might have tweaked something and Sveum will get Wood up in the pen"
by Nunyabidness on Dec 21, 2011 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This makes me even more sad that Ronnie isn't around anymore.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Whatever you do...
…don’t go over to the Red Reporter and try to glean some insight into how Reds fans feel about this prospective trade. I just Z’d through 500+ comments of inside jokes, tangents and semi-related asides and still have no idea how they feel besides not wanting to give up any decent prospects for Marshall.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Well, how would you feel if someone was trying to take your Wood away?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Deal is done.
Waiting on the names of two prospects.
Link
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7377087/chicago-cubs-trading-sean-marshall-cincinnati-reds
by Cubsfan Waveland on Dec 21, 2011 3:31 PM CST reply actions
Im just happy that ESPN Chicago reported that
And not ESPN Cincinnati. They never get any stories right at ESPN Cincinnati.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 21, 2011 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
hope 1 of the other players is
J.C. Sulbaran
by Cubsfan Waveland on Dec 21, 2011 3:33 PM CST reply actions
Bruce Levine reporting deal done
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Well, I don't think Kerry has signed yet.
But hopefully we will soon.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
you heard it here first...
travis wood, billy hamilton, and an outfielder
I hope that's true...
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Now that's not best keeping a secret at all.
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
I wish it was Donnie Joseph
instead of the outfielder
by Cubsfan Waveland on Dec 21, 2011 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
There's no way the Reds would give us Hamilton for Marshall
If this was true though, they got destroyed in this trade.
Well
people said they got destroyed in the Latos deal, too.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
It wouldn't surprise me...
if the Reds gave up more just like they did in the Latos trade. They could get more for these prospects, but they’re highly unlikely to help them in 2012 or beyond even with the depth they have. They might end up thinning themselves, and they could definitely get more for them, but it’s they can afford to overpay when they believe they’re this close to contention. I’m not counting them out with how weak Milwaukee might be next year offensively and St. Louis being a completely mystery as to how they’ll react without Pujols AND LaRussa.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 22, 2011 12:56 AM CST up reply actions
we just picked up the next jose reyes.
marshall will also return after his contract is up
Front page story on the deal being made official.
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