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On Rebuilding The Cubs

Ryne Sandberg of the Chicago Cubs swings at the ball during a game against the Montreal Expos at Wrigley Field in Chicago, Illinois. (Photo by Jonathan Daniel/Getty Images)

While we wait for the Sean Marshall deal to become official -- and find out who the two prospects coming over are, in addition to Travis Wood -- let me tell you a story.

The Cubs haven't been good for a couple of years and recent years of contention are starting to become a distant memory. A recent ownership change has brought in a new general manager, who has significantly different ideas about how to build a team than his predecessor.

The new GM has begun to make moves; quite a few of the people he's brought in are from his former team, which has led to complaints from some circles that the Cubs are simply becoming a western version of his old club.

And yet, the Cubs have fallen into a situation of such disarray that such a rebuild is almost necessary. The system is bereft of prospects, except perhaps for one recent first-round pick who might turn into a good major league outfielder someday.

That sums up the Cubs' current situation pretty well, doesn't it?

Except I'm not talking about now. Those facts precisely fit what Dallas Green did when he took over the Cubs in the winter of 1981. That team was in much worse shape than the current bunch; the Cubs were the worst team in the National League for the previous two years, had essentially one good player (Bill Buckner) and the one decent first-round draft prospect (Joe Carter).

We all know what Green did; despite complaints from some that he was turning the Cubs into "Phillies West", it worked; three years later the Cubs had a NL East title and I am convinced to this day that if Green and Tribco hadn't had the falling out that led to Green's departure, he would have built an organization that would have produced multiple pennant and World Series winners.

That is now what Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer are charged with doing.

Star-divide

There is no doubt the Cubs need to be "rebuilt". The short-term fixes of Jim Hendry did produce two division titles, but have now left the team without many top prospects and a thin organization. The question is, what does "rebuild" mean? Does it mean completely dumping every single player connected with the major league franchise, as David Kaplan suggested might be happening, or does it mean creatively trying to get younger players with upside, both rebuilding the organization (which TheoJed will also have to do via the draft and international signings) and attempting to put a team on the field that, while not necessarily being able to call it a "contender", could at least be competitive?

I like the Sean Marshall deal. Travis Wood isn't a No. 1 starter, but he could become a solid No. 3, and at age 25 does have upside. And the Cubs haven't had a regular LH starter since Ted Lilly was sent to the Dodgers a year and a half ago. With two prospects coming in the deal, it looks like a win for the Cubs. I was a fan of Marshall's, but this is the perfect time to deal a guy like that. The angst I've heard from some Cubs fans about Marshall's departure is misplaced.

But then, how should TheoJed continue? I received an email from BCBer elgato regarding this issue this morning; he and I discussed through a sequence of emails, and here's what we came up with, a scenario by which the Cubs could both begin the rebuild process and put a team on the field that could maybe surprise us in 2012:

  • The Cubs should try to trade Marlon Byrd, even if they have to eat some of his contract (remember, they're saving $3 million by dealing Marshall). That would make room for Brett Jackson to start in center field.
  • The Cubs should try to pick up another second-tier arm, maybe Jeff Francis or Paul Maholm, both of whom have been the subject of Cub-related rumors. I know some of you have been negative on Francis, but at 31 and also being lefthanded, he could eventually return to his pre-injury level (he was pretty good in 2006 and 2007). This would help avoid the RoLo/Davis/Ortiz/Coleman merry-go-round at the bottom of the rotation, as we had in 2011. A healthy Randy Wells will help, too.
  • I still think the Cubs can get into the Prince Fielder derby -- today's an even-numbered day, so it's probably the day for "yes, the Cubs ARE in the Fielder market" tweets. Perhaps the Fielder market will weaken to the point where a five or six-year-deal is possible. If other teams rumored to be interested in him spend money elsewhere (for example, the Blue Jays signing Carlos Beltran), that could shrink the number of interested teams. Could we get the Mariners interested in someone else?

I absolutely don't want to forsake the future with a Jim Hendry junk-food-high signing. But Prince Fielder isn't that kind of signing -- at 27, Fielder could be part of a Cubs contending team several years down the road, and doesn't preclude rebuilding, because there is quite a bit of money coming off the Cubs' payroll after this year (and even more after Alfonso Soriano's deal is over in 2014). Not to mention the fact that a Fielder signing would get the casual part of the fanbase energized and probably sell more tickets.

Which, as I have been arguing, does matter. Absolutely, rebuild the team. What had been done in the past clearly wasn't working the last couple of years, just as it wasn't working in 1980 and 1981.

As one of the keystones of that rebuild, Dallas Green shrewdly traded for a kid he had in the Phillies farm system; you all know who that is and he's pictured at the top of this post. Ryne Sandberg became the star of the team within a couple of years and finished his career on his way to the Hall of Fame. I'm not saying TheoJed have to go out and get a kid like that -- but I do trust them in their abilities to find value where perhaps the previous regime failed to do so. Maybe Ian Stewart will be that "value". Note, I'm not suggesting Stewart is of Hall of Fame caliber, but if he can even recover his 2008/2009 level, he'll be a solid everyday player.

The Cubs do have some good players who could be part of a "rebuild" -- Starlin Castro, Matt Garza, Geovany Soto among them -- and might not have as far to climb out of the hole as the team did in 1982. Incidentally, that 1982 team started out almost as badly as the 1981 strike-year team had finished. In '81, the Cubs went 38-65 -- and that was an improvement after starting 15-37 before the strike. On July 31, 1982, the Cubs lost to the Phillies and were 40-65.

But then things started to turn. The team went 33-24 the rest of 1982, and even though 1983 didn't bring much improvement, Green didn't hesitate to make the key trade (after a horrendous 13-game losing streak in spring training in 1984) that brought Gary Matthews and Bob Dernier to the North Side. Without that trade, the 1984 Cubs probably don't win the NL East.

I have full confidence in TheoJed that they'll do whatever it takes to make the Cubs a winner -- both now, and later. Rebuild? Absolutely. Try to remain competitive now? The answer to that is the same, in my opinion: absolutely.

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100% agreed on Dallas Green.

He had the Cubs on their way and made my favorite deal, bringing Sandberg to the Cubs.

Butts in the seats is something Team Theo has to be concerned about. Fielder would fill the bill like Sosa did with all his home runs. People went to games to see Sammy hit one. Fill in the team around Fielder. It makes sense.

We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 is going into the Hall of Fame!!

by mrcubsfan on Dec 22, 2011 10:07 AM CST reply actions  

There's another difference.

Attendance in 1981 had hit rock bottom. There was nowhere to go but up. Average attendance in ’81 was 10,475.

Attendance in 2011, though apparently high by number of tickets sold, had a tremendous number of no-shows, and other tickets discounted. To keep the revenue up, the Cubs (IMO) must put a team on the field that at least competes and has a recognizable star or three.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Larry Bowa in 1982

I suppose he was THOUGHT to be the main pickup for the Cubs in 1982. Bowa had a marquee name coming over from the Phillies. I was glad back then that the Cubs got him. There was that other guy (Sundberg, Sanderson, something like that) that the Cubs got in that trade with the Phillies for Ivan DeJesus. Well, whatever his name was, that guy never panned out as a shortstop in the big leagues.

The fact that the Cubs got Bowa showed some Cubs fans that the team was serious about contending. Bowa was past his prime but still decent, when he first got to the Cubs in 1982. By 1984, he had really fallen off, so Bowa didn’t do as well as I had hoped. I wonder if the current regime is going to be making any acquisitions of veterans past their prime with a little left in the tank. You never know, when you might get a nice throw-in. I remember now that Sundberg, Sanderson? guy did play at third base for a year. Whatever became of him? What was the guy’s name?

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Dec 22, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions  

It's kind of interesting revisionist history

But I have distinct memories at the time of that trade that Sandberg was mentioned prominently, at least in the Chicago press, as the key to the deal. This makes sense when you stop to consider that Bowa was creeping into his mid-thirties and his best days were behind him. DeJesus, on the other hand, while coming off a bad ’81 season, still seemed to be in his prime.

It seems to me that it’s only in recent years that we’ve heard Sandberg considered more of a “throw in” that the Cubs got (extremely) lucky with.

by bluekoolaide on Dec 22, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

As I recall it at the time...

… Green specifically said he insisted on having Sandberg included in the deal; he wanted him very badly.

That said, I don’t think anyone saw him as a possible future Hall of Famer; nothing in his minor league record suggested he’d be anything but, perhaps, a decent major league regular.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Interesting Sandberg tidbit

Not sure if many remember this, but when the Cubs got Sandberg, I distinctly remember they were talking about having him play center field. I don’t remember what happened between that and him starting the season at third.

by John916 on Dec 22, 2011 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

What I remember

is that Green did insist upon Sandberg being included, but that the Phillies weren’t all that reluctant to give him up. As you said, no one saw him as a Hall of Famer.

But I do think he was barely mentioned in the media stories of the trade. It was “DeJesus for Bowa” and then they might have mentioned a minor leaguer coming over as well.

I do remember getting out my baseball yearbook and looking up Sandberg’s minor league stats. I thought he seemed OK. He was a shortstop though, and I didn’t know why we needed two of them.

by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

heh

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

I recall a story

that Green actually asked for Luis Aguayo, the Phils said no, you can have Sandberg instead. Green really wanted Sandberg, but knew the Phils would say no to whoever he asked for, and offer the other guy.

"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester

by Jose's Eyelid on Dec 22, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

nice

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Jose's Eyelid, that is the story I recall.

Green wanted a different player. Later, as Sandberg emerged as a star, the story evolved until Green insisted that it was Sandberg whom he wanted all along. Green was good a massaging the facts. Green claimed (of the farm system) that the cupboard was bare. Were that true, ‘84 would never have happened, because he would not have been able to trade for Suttcliffe. C. V. Davis, who ran the Cub’s farm before Green took over, did a great job considering that he had a shoestring operation.

by Bad Dogs on Dec 22, 2011 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm all for the rebuild

Yesterday’s trade had me giggling like a little school girl. I’ve been waiting for 2 months to see Jedstein work their magic. I just don’t want to see Matt Garza be sent off. That is my only plea.

As for people complaining about building a “Red Sox West” because of Theo hiring his old crew, why mess with the recipe for success? They know how to get it done. So let them do their work.

~Ronald Reagan has held the two most demeaning jobs in the country; President of the United States and radio broadcaster for the Chicago Cubs~ George F. Will

by unretrofied93 on Dec 22, 2011 10:16 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

Let me make it clear.

I’m not complaining about “Red Sox West”, nor was I complaining about “Phillies West” 30 years ago.

I will say this: Dallas Green was too loyal in some ways, like Jim Hendry. In 1984, he put Dick Ruthven on the playoff roster even though Ruthven had had a bad season — Ruthven was one of his old Philly guys.

That kept Rich Bordi off the playoff roster. They could have used him. Meanwhile, Ruthven did not pitch at all in the NLCS.

This is the kind of “loyalty” that has to end. Not saying TheoJed have done this, or will, only that they shouldn’t.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:21 AM CST up reply actions  

I was more commenting on

those lovely sports writers we all so love complaining about the Cubs trying to poach everyones top execs and scouts.

~Ronald Reagan has held the two most demeaning jobs in the country; President of the United States and radio broadcaster for the Chicago Cubs~ George F. Will

by unretrofied93 on Dec 22, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh, that.

Well, yes, absolutely on that.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes.

The Cubs made two deals that they probably overpaid for, which, had they been able to re-structure them, could have made a BIG difference. Ruthven might have been had for less than Willie Hernandez, and Scott Sanderson could have been aquired without adding Craig Lefferts. Give the ‘84 team either of those lefties, and we’re talking World Series. These deals notwithstanding, Dallas did a remarkable job, and I think the only 3 guys left from the ’81 team at the end of ’84 were Durham, Lee Smith, and Jody.

"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields

by KedzieKid on Dec 22, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions  

About Durham, Davis and Smith

… give the previous regime credit for trading for Durham, who was productive for several years.

Davis was a Rule 5 pickup — another shrewd move.

And Lee Smith was literally the only Cubs draft pick from 1975 who played in the major leagues — at all.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Hold on one second

I don’t know this Ruthven, that ws before my time, but I have a problem with this arbitrary claim that loyalty is a dirty word. I have a very hard time believing that you wouldn’t be upset if an established veteran with a great, or even just good, track record was kept on the playoff roster despite a bad season. People would say “well they have a proven history, they’ve performed in the past”.

by monkeybiz on Dec 22, 2011 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

If Kerry Wood had a bad year

… and someone else was better suited for the spot, then give the better suited guy the spot.

In Ruthven’s case, he hadn’t pitched down the stretch, and then got a couple of starts in garbage time after the Cubs had clinched the division. He wasn’t going to start in the playoffs, and Rich Bordi had a better year and was better suited to the relief role the Cubs could have used in game 4 or game 5.

It was a major mistake by Green.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I hear what you're saying and I don't disagree but I don't think it's that easy either

These are the kinds of decisions that are completely obvious in theory but in practice, you don’t even know they’re happening until after the fact. It comes down to trust. Who do you trust? A proven veteran or someone who’s doing great but has never done great before that. It’s not always cleanly cut and dry who’s “best suited”.

But I digress….

by monkeybiz on Dec 22, 2011 5:11 PM CST up reply actions  

The thing is

… Ruthven had been anything but “a proven veteran” in 1984. He was terrible. Bordi, OTOH, was very good in relief that year — proving his value over and over in the exact situations he’d have been used.

It was the wrong choice.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions  

You're speaking from a position of knowledge

I was 3 years old in 1984, so I will defer to you here. My points were more of a study on loyalty rather than specific situations, even though the conversation was sparked by a specific example. Thanks for the interesting info though!

by monkeybiz on Dec 22, 2011 6:06 PM CST up reply actions  

You're right – looking back, it certainly was the wrong choice.

Bordi never did seem to get the respect from Frey that I thought he deserved. However, I don’t know that “loyalty” was the key to this mistake. Ruthven, after all, had done well for the Phils in more than one playoff series.

Also, Ruthie did come up big for the Cubs in that late July series at Shea, which I’ve always considered the turning point of the season. Even though he lost the Friday night game against Gooden, he kept things close in front of a sellout crowd.

The next day, Durham’s bloop hit over second to drive in a run sparked an eighth-inning barrage that carried over to the Sunday doubleheader, highlighting a Cubs sweep of the last three games of that series. I’ve always given Ruthven some credit for that outcome – maybe Dallas and Frey did too.

"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62

"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64

by ernaga on Dec 23, 2011 7:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Maybe.

But then, why didn’t they use him in the postseason when situations called for a guy like that?

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by Al Yellon on Dec 23, 2011 9:20 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, like maybe starting Game 3: He couldn't have done any worse than Eck.

That must have been some celebration on the flight to San Diego.

"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62

"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64

by ernaga on Dec 23, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

it is that easy ... for good teams

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Dec 23, 2011 9:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, it sucks

knowing that any quality exec let go from his/her position in MLB will call Theo immediately. And Theo won’t need to resume check to figure if he wants them.

Oooh, better hit refresh. The prospects might be named now.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions  

I just don’t want to see Matt Garza be sent off. That is my only plea.

This is also my plea, the only way the Cubs should get rid of Garza is if they receive a Texeira to the Braves type of haul. I’d be really disappointed if they traded Garza, good starting pitching is hard to find…….

by magicblue on Dec 22, 2011 10:22 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

On Fielder

I want him. I think he would be a good marriage between keeping the fanbase interested in the short term and having long-term success.

That said, I haven’t seen anything from Theo or Jed that would suggest he could be in the team’s plans. I haven’t seen anything from Rickett’s that would suggest a willingness to commit that kind of cash to one player.

I agree with you that it would be somewhat foolish to effectively throw in the towel for the next two years, but everyone in the front office seems to be pretty willing to do just that in order to make the strongest possible base on which to build. That is great, but there has to be someone there to pay for the tickets the next two years, and I’m not sure there will be with a team full of role players.

by tomas21 on Dec 22, 2011 10:22 AM CST reply actions  

Know your number.

Tell Boras the number. Don’t deviate.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Generally I would agree

but if someone is so key to your success that no other player would do, then you might have to bend on that number. Example, Rafael Furcal wanted like a million more than the Cubs were willing to offer. Losing out on him sent Hendry scrambling for both shortstops and leadoff hitters, prompting him to overpay for a declining Juan Pierre.

On rare occaisions I would say overpaying is appropriate. This might be one of those occaisions.

by tomas21 on Dec 22, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

It all depends on the number of years, I think.

The longer Fielder is out there, the more it becomes a seller’s market for him, IMO. I suspect Boras probably thought he’d have him signed by now.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Seller's market?

I don’t get that. It would seem to become a buyer’s market.

by Bad Dogs on Dec 22, 2011 10:49 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, sorry.

Got that backwards.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Especially with

Rizzo and Trumbo/Morales available as alternatives that weren’t part of the conversation when everyone was talking about Pujols.

by EcoGeek on Dec 22, 2011 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

If you don't want to bend on years, bend on $/year

Even with the higher average, Soriano’s deal would have worked out much better at 5/$100M than it has at 8/$136M. I know, some of the years were to facilitate a lower initial salary, but I hope the new front office doesn’t engage in that little piece of financial near-fraud.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Boras

Al … Did you happen to see that Boras is reported to want a contract for Fielder that is a higher dollar per year than Pujols? It’s long been thought, in many circles, that Boras is all about Boras.
It has occurred to me that Fielder might be better served by dumping him and either doing his own deal or getting someone else. I’m not the biggest fan, mind you (weight and range deficiencies) but he will help pay the bills.
With Bradley’s money off now and Ichiro’s off next year Seattle does look like a spot for 12 to land … esp as DH

by MoneyBoy on Dec 23, 2011 9:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Rebuilding doesn't have to mean wrecking ball.

Trades like Marshall for Wood will probably make the team better in the long term depending on who the other players are. The one thing the Cubs cannot do is give up like the Astro’s did. I still think when the dust clears Prince Fielder does not get anything near the Albert Pujol’s contract. The longer it takes the more I like the chances of the Cubs getting involved with a 6 year deal.
And, who knows if a player like Stewart turns into the next Ryno? We’ll see in the Spring.

by Nibbles on Dec 22, 2011 10:23 AM CST reply actions  

And, who knows if a player like Stewart turns into the next Ryno?

Sandberg, of course, was only 22 when he came to the Cubs, with no MLB track record. Stewart is older and has had some success, before his bad year last year.

I’d settle for him becoming a solid everyday regular.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I have no expectation that Stewart will be the next Ryno

or anything close to it. If he’s average/above-average, that’s a win.

I think, based on his history prior to 2011, he has a reasonable chance to be average.

by SouthernCub on Dec 22, 2011 1:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope you're right.

If so, it will be a useful return on Tyler Colvin.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

This^

I think that this is already a win for the Cubs. At the very least, Stewart can be a league average—or slightly below—third baseman that can draw a walk and hit 18-24 HR.

Colvin is a liability on the field and doesn’t draw any walks. He needed a change of scenery.

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 24, 2011 7:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Excellent idea

I’d suggest a ten foot high wall, with a roof. Doors aren’t really necessary.

[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."

by NobodySpecial on Dec 22, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

This calls for a photoshop.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Soriano might hop

over the wall

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Thus the roof.

[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."

by NobodySpecial on Dec 22, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Need a moat?

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 10:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Great Article Al

Really made me start to think the more about the parrells between Green drafting Sandberg and Epstein drafting Rizzo. Though I get the impression Rizzo has much more hype as a prospect than Ryno did, I wouldn’t be surprised if Theo/Jed are working much harder on a possible deal for Rizzo than we ve been speculating here.

by newbjaxswing on Dec 22, 2011 10:28 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

Well

… it’s clear that they both know Rizzo well, since he was traded from Theo to Jed last offseason.

It’s possible they’re after him. Let me say this — I’m still in favor of signing Fielder. But IF the Cubs don’t do that, I think I’d rather have Rizzo than LaHair. At least Rizzo has a future. LaHair, at 29 — not so much.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:30 AM CST up reply actions  

LaHair is getting 450 at bats this year in Chicago regardless

Fielder or Rizzo just might cause those at bays to happen in the OF corners.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

I think LaHair might look good in LF, at least better than Soriano both at the plate and in the field

interesting the Cubs signed RJohnson…

A friend once told me: "I don't buy the idea that a team learns anything from a loss, the only thing they learn is how to lose games."---Knight

by Ivy Walls on Dec 22, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't.

LaHair is a first baseman. We’d be getting a bad defensive left fielder, while taking the chance on maybe having a good bat.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

Not sure what LaHair would bat during whole major league season

I dislike Sori as much as the next person, but stats weren’t ok. Just awful for someone making $19 mill.

As for fielding, guessing LaHair would be an improvement. But the bar is set quite low

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

I think LaHair can hit over the course of a season

But play left field? Nope. You’d want Soriano back (who isn’t good, but looks worse than he is.)

by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

of course you do.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Dec 22, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

He's terrible

but it scary to think that there is someone you could put there could be possibly worse.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Yonder

Alonso would like a word, but he misplayed it into a IPHR

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions  

he's not

the monster you make him out to be.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Dec 22, 2011 5:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow

I’ve never followed LaHair & you being the minor league guru I’ll trust your advice. But that is scary.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I could wager a guess....

LaHair – .259/.340/.458 with 27 HR.

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 24, 2011 7:56 AM CST up reply actions  

So basically Carlos Pena

with likely fewer strikeouts at 1/22 the price.

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 24, 2011 7:57 AM CST up reply actions  

and 1/22 the defense probably, too

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Dec 24, 2011 8:01 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree with this 100%

My preferences would be (in order)

1. Rizzo and a TOR pitching prospect, subtracting Garza.
2. Fielder and Garza

I really think one of those scenarios is the likely one. There’s no way TheoJed aren’t discussing Rizzo daily.

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 24, 2011 7:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Al, You Changed My Mind

On the Marshall trade. Didn’t know we’d end up saving $3 mil and honestly now that I think about it he was in purgatory here with the Cubs. Pretty good bridge guy and could give you a spot start here and there but a LHP starter was a need filled with Wood.

As far as next moves, I agree Byrd should be shopped. What ever happened to the Byrd for Jair Jurrjens rumors? That would fill a need AND open up center for Jackson.

Also regarding Fielder, I’m still all for signing the man, however long it takes. It won’t only draw fans but will make the Cubs more “legitimate contenders” (however you’d like to define that) in 2012 than any other singular move, even though 2013 + beyond is the goal here.

If Fielder falls through, I’d try to find a way to get Rizzo to the Cubs and put all the chips into the Cespedes bag. I feel like everyone’s forgetting about this guy, and if we found a way to ship out Soriano or find out Jackson isn’t ready to patrol center, Cespedes can step right in.

Just my $.02

JoeFlah

by joeflah13 on Dec 22, 2011 10:29 AM CST reply actions  

Byrd for Jurrjens?

Eric Hanna back to writing again?

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions  

We save the $

and have a rotation ready starter who’s peak years are still ahead of him. He can learn a lot in the 2-3 years when he hits peak age, then we’ll have him at that for the remainder of our control, which i believe is 5 years

~Ronald Reagan has held the two most demeaning jobs in the country; President of the United States and radio broadcaster for the Chicago Cubs~ George F. Will

by unretrofied93 on Dec 22, 2011 10:32 AM CST up reply actions  

There seem to be concerns about whether Cespedes will be a "right now" kind of guy.

Indications are that he’d need some time (half a season? 2 seasons?) in the Minors before being ready. It’s tough to evaluate the Cubans.

"The cheaper the hood, the gaudier the talk" - Philip Marlowe

by ForTheLoveOfBiitner on Dec 22, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Their cigars?

Very good.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I would imagine that Cuban cigars aren't the only things that have seen the thighs of virgins.

Not after that video Cespedes put out.

"The cheaper the hood, the gaudier the talk" - Philip Marlowe

by ForTheLoveOfBiitner on Dec 22, 2011 9:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Rebuilding should never mean wholesale stupidity

But this is the reality, esp here on a fanatic website, fans generally have affection to players on their team.

Marshall was a good role player, Cubs got value for him to a team that has an inordinate need for the role that Marshall does.

Soto, question is he a cornerstone player? No he is a role player who has above average WAR where his value is diminishing in that like Russell Martin he will cost more in $$ than he is worth in replacement. TRADE HIM and say thank you for your contributions.

The question is always what value you get in return. In Marshall Cubs had players who could take up his role, same for Soto in that Castillo and Clevenger compete for that spot while Cubs bring in a veteran who could play 20-40 games.

Marmol, trade him! Get some value and have players do the role.
Byrd: No brainer he is another role player.

As for Soriano, Cubs might be eating his contract outright when the time is right.
Z, the hope is he creates value by July and Cubs eat some $$ and get some value OR he is so good he gets a FA supplemental draft pick
Dempster, would he waive a no trade clause in the season?

Is this dumping or rebuilding? It all is about what you get in return.

A friend once told me: "I don't buy the idea that a team learns anything from a loss, the only thing they learn is how to lose games."---Knight

by Ivy Walls on Dec 22, 2011 10:34 AM CST reply actions  

Soto could get shopped, too

A 29 year old catcher with inconsistent offensive performance, and the team has younger potential successors. Dealing him would be another “trade from strength” move, like trading Marshall was.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm confident almost everyone

is being shopped

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree - but Soto could even bring enough it is worth trading him

Marmol and Zambrano, not so much. And they would probably accept salary relief for Soriano.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep

It isn’t really “rebuilding” if you are removing pieces that are past their prime and have a current replacement value of the returning pieces.

Difference is that those returning pieces should continue to appreciate in value—rather than a diminishing spiral of decline.

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 24, 2011 8:00 AM CST up reply actions  

1981

Great example of having almost nothing and within 3 yrs. building a solid team with an up & coming list of kids from the minors: Maddux, Grace, Palmiero, Dunston, Moyer, etc. No GM is perfect, but Dallas was as good as we’ve ever had.

"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields

by KedzieKid on Dec 22, 2011 10:38 AM CST reply actions  

All the players you mention as up & coming...

… were drafted AFTER Green took over.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions  

How could people possibly complain about turning the Cubs into Phillies or BoSox west?

Those teams are winners.. we’re losers. And people complain about change?

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Dec 22, 2011 10:42 AM CST reply actions  

People did.

And do.

Not me, though.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Our guys are

always better than their guys. Which is why we finished in fifth. #AllQuadesFault

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd Love to Be Phils/BoSox West

Hey, those clubs have won a combined 4 pennants and 3 world championships since 2004. I’d love for the Cubs to do that between now and 2019. Here’s to hope!

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Dec 22, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Picking nits

The Cubs won’t save quite $3M.

Marshall will make $3.1M this year. TWoods contract should be in the neighborhood of 500K. So the savings will be around $2.6M (still good).

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Dec 22, 2011 10:47 AM CST reply actions  

Spend it on Aaron Miles

Since Yuni only cost 2 mil.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

It's good

Depending on what they spend the savings.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Is saving money really the object of this deal though?

From my perspective, it doesn’t seem as though the Cubs are necessarily “strapped” for cash.

More of a move to capitalize on peak value which is beautiful that a general manager of my favorite baseball team FINALLY understands.

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 24, 2011 8:02 AM CST up reply actions  

At the risk of fanning the flames of discontent...

…Barry Rozner has a column today essentially saying everything that many people will not want to hear-namely that a complete rebuild has been the plan from day one of the Epstein/Hoyer regime.

by bluekoolaide on Dec 22, 2011 10:49 AM CST reply actions  

It all depends on

… what your definition of “rebuild” is.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Thoughts on rebuilding

I’ve previously gone on record as saying I’m OK with the “build from within” approach, although it absolutely, positively has to be supplemented with finding difference makers in other ways. Quite frankly, the current state of the minor league organization will make this rebuild much, much longer without an alternate means of acquiring star-level players. I do not count the signing of DeJesus as anything but a stopgap and I think people are dreaming if they think Travis Wood is anything more than back of the rotation filler.

From where I sit, Epstein and company have done nothing so far that would provide a spark for a rebuild. The trades they’ve made have been nothing more than cost savings and should be viewed accordingly. The heavy lifting has to be done by trading away “assets”, as they idenfity them, for top level, star prospects….something the Cubs haven’t done in decades.

Which got me to thinking….when was the last time the Cubs actually acquired a top prospect from another organization? I’m not talking about these middling guys like Wood or DeWitt or anybody else they’ve dealt for either in the offseason or at the trading deadline. I’ve been a Cub fan long enough to have a pretty good history but for the life of me I can’t recall the last time they acquired a significant, top-level prospect in trade.

So, for those of you that have more time than I, perhaps doing a little research on the Cubs trades of the past few decades might provide a little relief or diversion from what I’m afrraid is potentionally shaping up to be a long period of irrelevance for Cubs fans.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 10:49 AM CST reply actions  

Which is why you have to sign someone like Fielder.

That gives you at least one major league star (in addition, presumably, to Castro), while you build through drafting and international signings.

You raise an interesting point, and off the top of my head I can’t think of any time the Cubs got a top prospect in trade, either. Certainly Jim Hendry never made a deal like that.

Sandberg might be the closest they’ve gotten to that, and he wasn’t a “top-level” prospect at the time, just someone Green thought would become a very good player, if not an All-Star.

This is something else TheoJed can change.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Have to

within reason

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

I recognize that the “top prospect” thing has certainly exploded with the internet and additional outlets that reach people these days. But I really would have a hard time coming up with the name of a “top prospect” acquired by the Cubs in the past 30 years or so.

I would say they’ve traded away some of those that might be considered “top prospects”…at least of theirs if not all of MLB….in Joe Carter, Jon Garland, maybe even into Hee Seop Choi and Bobby HIll….but I can’t recall that happening in reverse where the Cubs receive that type of prospect.

I use that as a baseline of the types of “prospects” that Cubs fans can expect to receive in trade for the players/assets currently on the roster.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

The Cubs haven't had tradable quantities

that often to justify getting high-end bait.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

Well

I would agree that they currently don’t….but top prospects are traded often enough, usually at the trading deadline, for less than elite players/pitchers. Immediately, Scott Kazmir to the Rays for Victor Zambrano comes to mind…no matter how Kazmir ended up turning out. I can’t recall the Cubs being on the good side of one of those deals in 30 or more years.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions  

That requires

quality trigger-pullers.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 11:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Yessir, they do

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Dean Wilkens, Micah Bowie, Brett Wallach...

…When Steve Trout went to the Yanks at the deadline in ’87 for a couple of unnamed minor league pitchers, I called a friend at the Newark Star-Ledger to confirm that Al Leiter would be one of the two young arms coming over to the Cubs. The laughter I heard in response to my suggestion told me all I needed to know: even Dallas Green could make an occasional bad deal.

"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62

"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64

by ernaga on Dec 23, 2011 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

OTOH

… one of those young arms was Bob Tewksbury. After making eight bad appearances for the Cubs, they gave up on him and let him go. He was only 27.

He was signed by the Cardinals and had five good years for them, finishing third in Cy Young voting in 1992 — and that was before Dave Duncan was their pitching coach.

The Cubs could have had value from that deal if they had held on to Tewksbury.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 23, 2011 6:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I thought you were opposed to giving opportunities to guys 27 or older?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 23, 2011 7:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Wait, what?

When did I ever say that?

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by Al Yellon on Dec 23, 2011 10:22 PM CST up reply actions  

You seemed determined to never give LaHair a chance

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 24, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

In general

… if a guy that old hasn’t made it in MLB by that age, the chance that he’ll become a productive starter is very small.

I could be wrong about LaHair, and will be happy to admit it if they do give him the job and he’s any good.

But I don’t think I’ll have to do that.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 24, 2011 6:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Give him a chance? Sure

but have a viable back up plan when he is exposed (again) as a career AAAA player.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Dec 26, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Start him in the spring

against Greinke and Lincecum.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 28, 2011 4:49 PM CST up reply actions  

That's a good point about Tewksbury, who was sort of the Geoff Zahn of the '80's...

You’ll recall that back in ’75 Wrigley and Holland received Zahn and Eddie Solomon in exchange for letting Happy Hooton play in LA. Hooton was a tough competitor – the classic mark of a potential troublemaker as far as old Phil was concerned.

What Wrigley got in return proved to be two quality pitchers. Unfortunately, both of them needed to escape Cubdom in order to produce. Salty Saltwell appears to be the GM who set them free.

"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62

"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64

by ernaga on Dec 23, 2011 8:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Solomon wasn't very good.

Zahn, on the other hand, had several good years for the Twins and Angels, pitching until he was 39.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 23, 2011 10:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Prospects

Al .. It could be argued that Chris Archer was one … he was thought to be the key to the Garza trade.

by MoneyBoy on Dec 23, 2011 9:34 AM CST up reply actions  

The Cubs did not receive Archer

… they traded him away. That was the point of that part of the thread.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 23, 2011 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

I think you missed MoneyBoy's point, Al

they traded DeRosa for prospects, one of whom was Archer who helped them get Garza.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on Dec 23, 2011 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

It's debatable

… whether Archer was or is at that level, because he still hasn’t made the major leagues.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 23, 2011 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

He also didn't really become a top 50 prospect until the year after we got him.

He put up that monster year in AA with the Cubs that really elevated his status.

by bdlugz on Dec 23, 2011 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow
Which got me to thinking….when was the last time the Cubs actually acquired a top prospect from another organization?

I’m trying to think, but the Cubs really don’t trade stars for prospects.

I’d have to say Leon Durham, although even he had blown his rookie eligibility by the time we got him.

by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Steve Wilson was a pretty good pitching prospect

… when he came over in the Rafael Palmeiro deal. I don’t know if he could have been called a “top” prospect at the time, though.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Top scouting prospect

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't know

You might be right on Wilson though. His numbers in the minors were solid, although not spectacular. That’s before we have lots of lists of top prospects each year though.

The big one we did was trade George Bell for Sammy Sosa, who had spent two and a half seasons in the majors by the time we got him, although he was only 23.

by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2011 3:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Nicely done

Yes, the Sutter for Durham, Reitz, Waller, et.al. was indeed that type of deal. That’s going back to the early 80’s. Wow.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Tye Waller

He’s gonna be a staaaaaa

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Jenkins to Texas for Madlock and Harris.

Actually, Vic Harris was supposed to be the best prospect.

by Bad Dogs on Dec 22, 2011 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, that one.

Harris was very highly touted at the time, turned out to be nothing.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

No... instead, we collectively trade great closers for piles of garbage

See Bruce Sutter, Dennis Eckersley (although he didn’t close for us), and Lee Smith.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Dec 22, 2011 4:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Wait.

Sutter was traded for Ken Reitz and Leon Durham.

Reitz was awful, but Durham was certainly very good for a few years.

On Eckersley and Smith, agreed.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 5:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't forget Willie Hernandez.

I don’t recall him closing for the Cubs, but he turned into a pretty good closer for the Tigers for a spell. Given away for a bucket of dirt I’d bet.

On the flip side we will trade our best prospect in Palmeiro for Mitch Williams.

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Dec 22, 2011 9:44 PM CST up reply actions  

If Jaime Moyer comes back to put up Tommy John/Jim Kaat-style final numbers,

and if Palmeiro gets a HoF bailout as part of a blanket amnesty, Mitch Williams may one day be able to say he was traded for two future Hall of Famers years before their careers peaked.

Of course, if Lee Smith also is inducted, the ZimFrey team will have a chance to claim that within one 12-month period, they traded three future Hall of Famers who were either in their prime or on the upside of long and productive careers. Of course, no one will believe them.

"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62

"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64

by ernaga on Dec 23, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I think that could be another "trade from strength" move

If team management believes that Castillo and Clevenger are ready for MLB, the situation at catcher is similar to the Marshall/Russell trade-off in the bullpen. This approach seems consistent with the idea of not giving up and fielding a 100+ loss team in 2012.

Fan goodwill can last quite a while, but can take a long time to build up after it is destroyed. The Rangers were still not close to filling their park for games last May – I got in for $10 on a Dr. Pepper deal and was able to easily sit in the lower deck. If the Cubs get into that situation, it could hamper the team for years.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Unless 5 months later

they were in a World Series

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

My point is that the Ranges were still struggling to sell tickets after being in the WS

When a team destroys fanbase interest, it takes a while with low revenue to build it back.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Duly noted, but don't forget the Rangers play in a state where the top three sports are...

1. high school football
2. college football
3. pro football

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 22, 2011 2:41 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I doubt the Cubs get into that situation.

We had a 66 win season not too long ago and a team that scuffled the entire first half of the year, and ticket sales didn’t slump drastically.

[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."

by NobodySpecial on Dec 22, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions  

First half of the NEXT year, that is.

[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."

by NobodySpecial on Dec 22, 2011 2:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope the Cubs upgrade at catcher this offseason.

I would think that Soto has some trade value.

Anyone know anything about Hundey’s defense in SD?

"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman

by BucknerKongCardenal on Dec 22, 2011 9:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Upgrade?

Over Soto? While trading Soto?

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 9:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Soto

Agreed … AND, he’ll be 31 when he hits FA … I’ve been on board with trading him, though he’s done well, since the season ended.

by MoneyBoy on Dec 23, 2011 9:36 AM CST up reply actions  

For those who didn't see it in the last thread...

Olney is reporting that most teams in on Fielder are waiting for the asking price to go down, most of them are willing to offer a 6 year deal.

THEO!

by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 22, 2011 11:06 AM CST reply actions  

I'd offer him the 7/154 that Adrian Gonzalez got

Add in some incentives like 1 million for an All-Star appearance, and 5 million per MVP award. Prince could be looking at maybe 170 million over 7 years and another possible big contract at 35.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 11:22 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd give him the 5/125 that Howard got instead

i just don’t see Prince settling for 5 years.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 1:22 PM CST up reply actions  

As smart as the Phillies can be...

that was a really dumb move, and there aren’t enough dumb teams out there that will give Fielder 80% of that deal. Nobody is letting Scott Boras base anything off of that deal. It might be slightly different if Boston and either New York team were a factor.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Dec 23, 2011 1:38 AM CST up reply actions  

It really comes down to Fielder's asking price.

I’m guessing TheoJed decided that the Cubs aren’t good enough right now, and probably won’t be good enough for three years or so, that Fielder will make enough of a difference from 2012-14 to stomach a potentially bad contract in seven or eight years.

I’m hoping Fielder’s asking price falls to five or six years. Then, I bet the Cubs get in.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 11:09 AM CST reply actions  

I hope you're right.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Fielder

While I like Fielder and think he would be great with the Cubs – make the Cubs almost competitive in these first 2 ‘rebuild’ years and still be a player to build around in years 3-5, I just don’t understand why you take that risk.

There is 1 giant risk in signing Fielder now. He could very easily become the Soriano, Carl Crawford, Adam Dunn, fill in the blank huge FA signing that hasn’t lived up to the massive contract. Even a 5 year contract unnessarily hamstrings your club if he doesn’t pan out.

In 2 years when the team will hopefully be competitive and at that point where adding 1 huge peice like PF will put you over the top. That is the time when you get the big FA signing. Of course the argument is there won’t be a PF at that time and whilst that is correct, you also might not WANT or NEED a PF at that time. You could have your 1B of the future ready to step in and produce for league min and then you can spend that 30mil AAV salary on a LF or C or a position of actual need. Fielder is no different than any top FA position player that is available each year except for his age. The problem is, he’ll be the ‘normal’ FA age when the Cubs are actually competitive again.

And to say you need to sign a guy like Fielder for ticket sales is laughable. The team will not be competitive with or without PF so tickets sales are going down again this year, that is a given. PF alone won’t make up his salary in ticket sales. The Cubs draw on their W/L record, not on stars and with or without him, there are going to be more losses than last year. An average fan doesn’t care if it’s a 60 win team or a 70 win team.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 11:10 AM CST reply actions  

But unless the Cubs get Rizzo ...

they don’t seem to have any good internal 1B options. And Fielder is also younger than Soriano and Dunn (and probably Crawford, don’t have time to check now) when they signed their big contracts.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 11:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes

But we using his 2 ‘young’ years in a rebuild, so do we really care?

As far as internal option, there is nobody jumping out right now, but that really changes year-to-year. Who knows who will be knocking on the door step in 2 years. You can never count on someone being ready in the future and likewise you shouldn’t count on NOBODY being ready.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Have you looked at the Cubs' minor league system?

There aren’t any reasonable 1B options above Boise.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 12:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes I Just Did

You are correct.

However, litterally anyone ‘could’ play 1B. You can’t just look at 1B options. I don’t believe Pujols came up as a 1B. I believe 1B is the ‘easiest’ position to learn/play. I might be over simplifying it, but given a 2 year window I think nearly any position player could make the switch to 1B.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Above Boise

Sucks all they way around (ex Brett Jackson).

Obviously this is the area to try and fill with trades. I think the following players will be traded to help fill those many, many, many gaps: Garza, Marmol, Soto, Byrd.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Right now, Marmol and Byrd won't get you much

And trading Garza creates the problem of having to build a starting rotation from 0. Seriously, the guy showed #1 status last year – that is pretty hard come by even if you start with a bushel basket full of “stud prospects.”

Soto may get moved.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 1:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Garza

I think you’re right on Garza. I would prefer they lock him up to a long term deal. I think he is someone that could be a decent #1 or great #2 on a contending team.

But, like you said, you’re not getting much from anyone else, so how are you going to improve the team? There aren’t enough good free agents and drafts take too long to show results….

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Just because..

… Soriano, Crawford and Dunn were free-agent busts, doesn’t mean Fielder will be.

For one thing, Fielder is four years younger than any of those players were when they signed their big FA deals. Being 27, he should be entering his peak years, not past them as those guys were.

That should be the difference. And with him, the Cubs instantly become a much better team.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Of Course

Nobody would ever sign free agents if its even likely they’ll be a bust. That is why I used the term ‘risk’. It is always a risk and risk involves both upside and downside.

I think Fielder will be a fine signing for the first 3-4 years of the deal and that makes it a good signing at even a 6 year contract. It just doesn’t justify tying up that much money guessing at a need.

And I agree he makes them a much better team. I would say he’s a 6-8 win player at Wrigley, but again does 78 wins versus 70 wins suddenly fill the seats or even more extreme, 68 wins versus 60?

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Your logic suggests

it’s not worth signing anybody. You’ll never get better unless you do.

Building entirely from within, save a piece or two, is not practical and not attainable, except on paper. The Cubs shouldn’t have to act like they’re paupers, because they aren’t.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Which is a reasonable statement in this context

The Cubs should be aiming at a long-term payroll of at least $140M and looking to increase that number with a new broadcast deal. FA signings for real, honest top tier players (not pretenders like Soriano) should be part of the plan.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 1:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I 100% Agree

Only not in Year 1. It is just not worth the risk.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

There are different seasons

I can get fruit from S America instead of N America and I can get a RF to give me 6 WAR and play an ‘average’ 1B.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Name, please.....

Fielder is real. Your RF to play 1B is like a wish list to Santa.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Ha

Substitute any position for RF and insert Top FA position player. My point is, there are always players of his level in free agency each year. You don’t have to hamstring yourself for 2 rebuilding years to get that level of production.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Name, please....

Other than Votto, the list of top hitters coming on the FA market in the next few years is pretty sparse. And the Cubs don’t have much in minor league resources to swing a trade.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 1:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Josh Hamilton

Michael Bourn
BJ Upton
Brian McCann
Robinson Cano
Curtis Granderson

These are all 2013 or 2014 free agents that have produced more or nearly as much WAR as Fielder the last 2 years.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

HAHAHA

Yes, I couldn’t believe it myself:
2010 – 2011 WAR:

Michael Bourn 8.9
Prince Fielder 8.9

If you asked me to guess those numbers by my own perception, I would have said:

Bourn 4
Fielder 12

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Rank

These guys are tied for 30th in the league to put it in perspective.

I think Fielder is pretty overrated (myself included).

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe TheoTed knows this too?

Verrrry interesting…

"IN THEO WE TRUST"

by BigJohnAZ on Dec 22, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

If Ricketts didnt want to pay then he shouldn’t have ever gotten approval.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

No

What I’m suggesting is you don’t sign the long-term most expensive FA until your much closer to contention. Definitely not when you are starting to blow it up. Signings like DeJesus now are absolutely perfect. You have the money to spend, and you can either flip them for more prospects or let them walk in a year for draft picks. Those are the types of signings the team should do to build for the future.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Andrew Friedman would like a word with you.

The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney

by SouthWabashSoul on Dec 22, 2011 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Rebuilding Team & Top Free Agent

I am curious if there is a similar instance like the Cubs / Prince Fielder: where the team is in rebuilding mode and they get one of the top free agents for a long-term deal.

I can’t think of any good or bad off the top of my head, just wondering if there is a precendant.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

In theory, that could apply to the 2006 Cubs.

That team needed to be rebuilt, and they went and signed Alfonso Soriano.

I don’t think anyone at the time figured they’d win the division title the next year.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

but was 07 & 08

worth 9-13?

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 11:40 AM CST up reply actions  

It would have been if the Cubs had won the World Series in either year.

Unfortunately, it didn’t happen.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

I just looked it up

Really sorry I did

He was 1 for 14 in the NLCS

But if you look at his whole year obviously it’s much better.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

The problem was signing Soriano through age 38 in the post-PED (mainly) era

No way a guy whose used speed as one of his main tools could last that long.

If they had gone for 5/$100M, that contract would still have hurt but it would have worked out much better. That is one reason why I would advocate waving something like a 6/$168M deal at Prince (runs through age 33).

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

True

But I would think of that as a re-load, not a re-build. That might be splitting hairs. I was more wondering if a team had sold off a lot of it’s MLB, arb & post arb talent for prospects and pre-arb talent and at the same time locked up a long-term FA.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Honest question, Al...

Do you think Soriano is older than reported?

THEO!

by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 22, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

No, I do not.

His age was already adjusted after 9/11 — before that, he had a listed birth year of 1978, it was changed to 1976.

He’ll be 36 in January.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 11:54 AM CST up reply actions  

I didn't think so....

I had someone trying to convince me that he began to decline too early, but he started to decline when he was 31, that’s a pretty normal age for it.

THEO!

by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 22, 2011 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Excellent summary Al - you build a strong case and you might be surprised to hear I agree with a lot of it.

One nit though – your reasoning is sound enough to stand on its own; no need to overdramatize Kaplan’s article. I read it again and nowhere does he (or his “sources”) say there’s a need for the Cubs to be “completely dumping every single player connected with the major league franchise.” Massive overhaul? Sure, but not to the tune of dumping every single player. Things don’t always have to be so black and white.

Gray! The world is gray, Jack!

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 22, 2011 11:26 AM CST reply actions  

Well, what Kaplan suggests...

… IMO, is doing that. Maybe I was a bit overdramatic, but “rebuild” can have several definitions.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Total rebuild

In Kaplan’s piece to me means closer to what Al said. In reality, you can’t sell off EVERYONE because there aren’t buyers. But a complete rebuild means everyone is available to trade if it makes the future better than the near term 1-2 years value each player would provide.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 11:50 AM CST up reply actions  

precisely many definitions

Rebuild the core team (,major contributors)
Rebuild the role players (minor contributors)

Completely dump bottom up entire organization including prospects et all

Who are the Cubs current core? Garza, Dempster, Zambrano, Marmol, Soriano, Soto, Castro, Byrd (previous were Ramirez, Pena and Marshall)

So removing all besides Castro is that is rebuilding.

Role players are the rest on the team…

A friend once told me: "I don't buy the idea that a team learns anything from a loss, the only thing they learn is how to lose games."---Knight

by Ivy Walls on Dec 22, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions  

I can't really argue with any of your points, Al

I’m a little concerned about the minor-leaguers coming back in the Marshall deal. I think one of them needs to be almost big-league ready if this trade is going to be worthwhile.

Otherwise, you’re spot on about Fielder. No reason the Cubs shouldn’t go after him, hard.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 11:33 AM CST reply actions  

Doubtful

I wouldn’t count on the two minor leaguers being anything but organizational guys. This trade was a salary dump no matter how anyone might try to claim Travis Wood has upside. The Reds aren’t that close to contending for championships that they would make this deal unless they had completely soured on Wood.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

What?
The Reds aren’t that close to contending for championships that they would make this deal unless they had completely soured on Wood.

They are most definitely close. And if they didn’t think that they were, why on Earth would they add a set-up man who is only under their control for one year?

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 22, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions  

No they aren't

I disagree. As long as Dusty Baker is in charge of a pitching staff, they aren’t that close. Division? Sure. World Championship? No.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm sure he isn't

K12’s point about Dusty is well taken, but that doesn’t mean anything as far as how the Reds are approaching the season.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

That doesn't make sense

If the GM believed that, he’d fire Baker. And if a team can finish first in the NL Central, they do indeed get to keep playing to try to win the World Series.

If Baker can get through 162, he just might be able to get through 5, 7 and 7.

The claim of salary dump – I don’t see how you make that case. They spent over slot on the draft, they offered Pena arbitration . . . they aren’t in a salary dump mode. They are in a get what better parts they can mode.

As someone else pointed out — Epstein and Hoyer appear to think Wood has upside – and they don’t really care what any of us think.

I’m disappointed to see Marshall go, but that doesn’t mean that the trade won’t work out for the Cubs.

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 22, 2011 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Well

The GM’s opinion doesn’t have to be the same as ours. I steadfastly claim that Baker will never win another championship. But that is for another day.

More concerning, is that if Theo and company think they are getting something better than Marshall in Wood, that’s great. I hope it to be true. More likely though, acquiring a guy like Wood shows just how barren the Cubs minor league system is. Back of the rotation starters should be falling out of the sky from your organization and in this case, apparently the Cubs organization does not fit that profile. That is concerning to say the least.

Until and unless Wood proves reasonably successful at the major league level, this is absolutely a salary savings….dump….purge….whatever you want to call it. If the quality improves a tick, even better. The deal is certainly not a building block to continued success for the Cubs.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 4:08 PM CST up reply actions  

And

The spending over slot and arbitration to Pena are mutually exclusive of this deal. They knew Pena wouldn’t accept arbitration and took a calculated gamble by making the offer to him. The spending overslot can absolutely fit in place with a salary dump at the MLB level and this deal of Marshall would seem to support that argument.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 4:10 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll give you credit for the measured, thoughtful response

Even if I don’t agree with it.

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 22, 2011 10:39 PM CST up reply actions  

If acquiring Wood means that the system is barren and they need pitching

Then how can it absolutely be a salary dump?

Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!

by shoemile on Dec 22, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

You think he won't win another world series

or you dont WANT him to win another series because of our collective resentment for how he blew up our pitching staff?

(almost) anyone can win with the right combination of talent and luck.

by monkeybiz on Dec 22, 2011 5:52 PM CST up reply actions  

He'd have to win 1 first.

I’m assuming he means LCS… maybe even division title.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Dec 23, 2011 1:50 AM CST up reply actions  

If Baker can get through 162, he just might be able to get through 5, 7 and 7.

Baker’s had teams in the playoffs five times and hasn’t gotten through all those yet.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 4:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with it

I don’t think we should over pay for Fielder but we should try to talk some reason into prince that he will have a better life if he is on a team that is trying to win. If he goes to the Jays or the Mariners he takes them out of any contention. Also I propose a 5 year deal with a two year mutual option.

I want to say it was really nice to have Marshall on this team. He seemed like a professional and never heard him complain when he was made a reliever.

by lshaffer_69 on Dec 22, 2011 11:34 AM CST reply actions  

Do more ticket sales really count?
Not to mention the fact that a Fielder signing would get the casual part of the fanbase energized and probably sell more tickets.

While no one is disputing that, does anyone think that Theo and Jed really care about that?

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 22, 2011 11:54 AM CST reply actions  

Right.

They need to care, even if it’s not their primary responsibility. As I have written before, lower ticket sales = lower revenue = lower payrolls in the future.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

what were they last year? Just over 3M? 3.1M maybe?

Assuming there’s no Prince Fielder any other other FA signing of significance this offseason, then I could see attendance dropping a couple hundred K to the 2.8M level.

Then again, if the team plays hard, hustles, and otherwise captures the imagination of the casual fan, I could see them coming close to 3M again, even without a big FA splash.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 22, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions  

This is a super interesting link

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/homePct

Let’s you go back to 2001. Cubs since 2004 have had 3 mill each year.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 12:55 PM CST up reply actions  

The Cubs sold 3 million tickets in 2011.

They did not have 3 million people in the park — probably more like 2.3 million, and a good chunk were sold with various discounts.

That’s the problem the Cubs could face.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly

And a lot of those tickets sold/don’t show ups could become people who don’t buy tickets at all.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

All those people had opportunities to buy tickets last year

Doesn’t appear that they did — on the resale market or anywhere else.

Your thinking there is some limitless supply of people who want to go to Wrigley Field is mistaken. That all began to change in 2003, remember?

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions  

I was just using a 'could' scenario in response to your 'could' scenario...

…in the hopes that maybe you’d realize there are other possibilities.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 22, 2011 3:17 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

That isn't the point.

NBF’s point is correct. The days of throwing the doors to Wrigley open and full houses streaming in every single day are over — until AFTER the Cubs return to the playoffs.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

There you again - Mr. Absolute.
full houses streaming in every single day are over

Who said anything about full houses every single day? Besides you, that is…

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 22, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions  

That's exactly my point.

A full house streaming in every single day makes three million tickets sold.

Last year, they sold three million tickets — many at discounted prices — but had far from full houses.

The fear is, or should be, that those no-shows turn into no-buys, which is already happening.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 5:55 PM CST up reply actions  

No shows happened for a number of reasons.

In part because of unhappiness with the product, in part a sour economy, and in part crappy weather this past year.

I think it’s really tough to predict a 25% drop in ticket sales in a single season because of a disgruntled fan base, especially now that the fan base at least has a notion that better days are hopefully coming.

"The cheaper the hood, the gaudier the talk" - Philip Marlowe

by ForTheLoveOfBiitner on Dec 22, 2011 9:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Those of us who follow the team closely know that.

Many of the casual fans don’t — I’ve seen a lot of teeth gnashing over the trade of Marshall, which almost certainly will improve the team in the future.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 23, 2011 9:22 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm with Al and, well, NBF on this one

Kind of.

Today’s “no-shows” do tend to become tomorrow’s “no buys”.

However, I don’t think that a year or two of rebuilding destroys revenue – IF there is a plan. I’ll go see B. Jackson, Castro, etc. in 2012, even if they are a 70-win team at best. If there is young talent getting a chance to play.

I would not go to many games to see more of the same from 2010, 2011.

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 22, 2011 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

You're a unique case (so to speak)

Die-hard fans will go no matter what. Most people aren’t die-hards.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly.

The casual fanbase will turn off buying a rebuild.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

True. However, I think that there are enough that will go for 1 year.

And the tourists will still go.

Attendance would go down, but I really think that a plan would mollify some.

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 22, 2011 10:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Also true.

But I would expect at least incremental improvement into year 2.

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 22, 2011 11:03 PM CST up reply actions  

This is looking to be the third year in a row

That you’re not going to accept that this team isn’t going to turn out to be as good as you think they are. 4th place doesn’t fill up many more seats than 5th does.

DUMP GARZA

by shoemile on Dec 22, 2011 11:20 PM CST up reply actions  

And Theo and Jed may be viewing it the same way

They have not given any indications that they are concered about 2012 ticket sales. Definitely not in comparison to their long term plans.

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 22, 2011 4:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't see that happening.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

But I don't think ticket revenue is a factor on Fielder

I can’t see Theo and Jed noodling over what the acceptable contract terms could be and then saying “Well the ticket revenue will increase by…”

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 22, 2011 12:42 PM CST up reply actions  

OK, math question.

If Cubs attendance with PF is 3.1 M

but sttendance without is 2.9 M

what is PF worth?

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Every penny

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

At $50 per ticket

That’d be a $10m swing in revenue right there.

by madcow256 on Dec 22, 2011 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Well if the average ticket price is $50

that would be $10 million, plus jersey sales, and concessions!

Marilyn Monroe "yogi your a pretty cool guy"
Berra " Marilyn you ain't so hot yourself"!

by Notsnud on Dec 22, 2011 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

You think it will hold up at 2.9M for a "throw in the towel" team?

Given the number of empty seats last year, that seems wildly optimistic. While the season ticket base is high, most of them are not Al – they sell a lot of those games to help pay for a very high cost luxury item (owning a Porsche 911 may be cheaper than Cubs season tickets). The no-show level means that those tickets got a lot more expensive.

I think the short-term downside for a really bad team could be attendance of 2.5M. For a stretch of bad teams, well……

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Well what about the "resale market" factor?

There is a rabid reseller market for cubs tickets. Hundreds of people buy multiple games with every intention of flipping them. Whether or not they can do that successfully changes all the time depending on performance but there are always speculators. I actually don’t think the number of tickets sold will ever change but the number of butts in the stadium is entirely dependent on performance. This is true for just about any team in the world.

Point being, I don’t think the Cubs will ever have a problem selling at LEAST 2.7mm tix, bad team or good team.

by monkeybiz on Dec 22, 2011 5:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Your post is very 2008.

The “rabid reseller” market totally dried up the last year or two. Very, very few people are buying games with the intention of flipping them any more.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 6:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, actually, I am.

I have heard that specifically from both individuals I personally know who have reduced a formerly significant number of tickets bought for this purpose to zero, and from brokers who have gone out of business because there’s no market for marked-up tickets any more.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 23, 2011 9:23 AM CST up reply actions  

That last part makes me happy

I’ve never met a broker that wasn’t a total slimebag. I’m sure they’re out there, but I haven’t met one.

by tomas21 on Dec 23, 2011 9:27 AM CST up reply actions  

That could be the last thing to come back

A winning team and a decent economy kept those guys going. I think the Cubs can better before the economy can bounce back enough to support their mark-up.

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 23, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions  

I think the Cubs can be better

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 23, 2011 10:00 AM CST up reply actions  

I can think of one disgruntled one year Season Ticket Holder

who I assume falls into this category. If you are a STH with the intention of making money you are backing the wrong horse.

by jpeters407 on Dec 22, 2011 6:10 PM CST up reply actions  

That picture is post game.

You can tell by how much garbage there is in the stands.

by jpeters407 on Dec 22, 2011 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

There were plenty of games this season

where that was typical in the bleachers during the game, not after.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 7:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure, of course

Every Cubs season, because of day games, a neighborhood as lively as wrigleyville, 82 home games, various levels of suckitude or success, is going to have some degree of “butts in the seats”. My point is, it’s not going to go down to 10,000 per game anytime soon.

The original point was that there’s a concern that the Cubs are going to lose significant revenue if they don’t put at least what fans PERCEIVE to be a competitive team on the field. I agree that it won’t be a full-capacity situation but it’s not going to be a dire situation unless the Cubs enter another 3-5 seasons in a row of bad teams. I cant help but think that you guys aren’t giving enough credit to the Cubs fanbase or even the fact that it’s a fantastically fun pastime that North Chicagoans have fallen in love with and will continue to attend games. The ricketts are smart business people and know how to continue to maximize profit. Prices WILL come down if tickets aren’t purchased and by definition, demand will rise.

My point is twofold, the Ricketts made the decision to buy the Cubs because they are part of a rich tradition of fans that will always come back. Chicago is a vastly different place than Tampa Bay. You’ll never hear talking heads saying about Chicago, “this city doesn’t deserve this team”. It’s the same for the Bears and Bulls. Now, the Blackhawks are an interesting case study. They went through a sustained period where they just sucked so bad and they lost their fans. Would this happen to the Cubs? I don’t think so. Others probably disagree, hence, which is the crux of this conversation.

by monkeybiz on Dec 22, 2011 9:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I think there's a lot of whistling past the graveyard

in your thinking process.

What always was the main complaint about Cubs fans? They always come out, whether the team wins or loses.

That isn’t the case anymore.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 9:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Surely not at current price levels

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 9:27 PM CST up reply actions  

That is a complaint, because

it gave management the opportunity to shrug at lousy players/management/drafting/development.

Feel free to add your own.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 9:31 PM CST up reply actions  

"it’s not going to be a dire situation unless the Cubs enter another 3-5 seasons in a row of bad teams"

There have been 3 seasons in a row of bad teams already. We are certainly going to have at least one more.

by tomas21 on Dec 23, 2011 9:31 AM CST up reply actions  

More like 2 or 2 and 1/3

When you look at each year, it breaks out differently:

2009: Coming off a 97 win 2008 season and finished above .500. They were in first place for 11 days. Trending Bad at end of year.
2010: Breaking Bad
2011: Really Bad

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 23, 2011 9:47 AM CST up reply actions  

My favorite

Part of the Internet is when people ignore a point to nitpick minutiae.

by tomas21 on Dec 23, 2011 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

That picture was taken

… in the 12th inning of this game on July 21, 2010.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 23, 2011 9:24 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm suprised that people ask

You have people sitting and standing. Looking towards home plate and looking around. But no one is leaving in the photo.

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 23, 2011 9:26 AM CST up reply actions  

I figured if it was during a game it had to be late.

Some people tend to linger after the game, almost like they don’t want the experience to end.

by jpeters407 on Dec 23, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

So you think Theo and Jed are making moves with ticket sales in mind?

Hmmm… Doesn’t seem to be any evidence of that so far.

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 22, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

They do have some experience in this

Jed Hoyer traded away Adrian Gonzalez and San Diego went from 90-72 to 71-91. And attendance basically remained flat from 2010 to 2011.

I am not saying that would play out the same with the Cubs. But I think Theo and Jed are accustomed to making difficult, unpopular decision. Decisions that are unpopular in the short term, but what they thought was right in the long-term.

I think they will look at a Fielder contract with a long-term perspective – are the terms of the deal in the best interest of the Cubs over the long-term?

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 22, 2011 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

San Diego is a different kind of market

I"m not sure they get excited about anything (save perhaps the Chargers) in SD.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Or

They went from attendance of 2.131 million in 2010 to 2.143 million in 2011.

At the end of the day, I don’t think Theo and Jed are saying that they must sign Fielder for ticket sales.

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 22, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm Jonesing Marshall trade intel

Contemplating turning on The Score to hear rumored prospects.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 11:57 AM CST reply actions  

Not sure if this qualifies as a market inefficiency to be exploited but here's another angle to consider...

Even if Cubs don’t get Fielder, and clearly they missed out on Kemp, Reyes, AGonz, etc., there could be a second chance somewhere down the road on these guys and/or other high-end recent signings. Maybe in a few years, one of these teams gets a case of buyer’s remorse and needs to get out from under an albatross contract, i.e. similar to how the Yankees were able to get ARod from the Rangers.

By then Cubs would be completely out from under Z’s contract and just about done with Soriano’s (assuming either/both haven’t already been dumped). And presumably a year or two of TheoJed’s ministrations would have done wonders for the overall health of the franchise.

Certainly not something you can count on but just thought it’d be another possible way to “go for it”.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 22, 2011 11:59 AM CST reply actions  

In a few years, there will be a new hot commodity on the FA market for us to capitalize on.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Dec 22, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Which is why

you don’t overpay.

Spoken more 2012-centric, one of these will be playoff-urgent next year. And outside-looking-in.

Texas
Anaheim
Boston
Yankees

Those 4 can’t all make the playoffs

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Me thinks it's Boston.

But you’re gonna have to include Tampa in there as well.

THEO!

by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 22, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Someone will want

(insert decent player’s name here)

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

The Angels were pretty good last year

They missed the play offs but with 2 added FA’s I won’t be at all surprised to see them in play offs this year.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

If we miss out on Fielder

I am completely on board with seeing how viable a Soriano for Adam Dunn swap is.

Maybe an evening of the $ and a prospect can facilitate a change of scenery deal?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Castro throw to first

Short hops Dunn. Batter to second on E6

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

Dunn would be… awful.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm still obviously in favor of Fielder.

But Dunn + potentially Soriano cost savings versus Bryan LaHair?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Given Dunn's history, age, and lack of work ethic

I’ll take LaHair, thank you.

[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."

by NobodySpecial on Dec 22, 2011 3:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, I disagree.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 3:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

I’ll merely add that one aging 1B is taking swings in winter ball and one hasn’t picked up a bat yet that anyone can tell.

[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."

by NobodySpecial on Dec 22, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't want Dunn in a vacuum.

I want him if it ALSO means getting rid of Soriano and saving a little money.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't want him in either case.

I think he’s dunn done.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Strike Out King!

Dunn would probably draw people away from the park.

by ddoubleheader on Dec 22, 2011 6:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Many people were drooling for Dunn

last year. They were looking at his high HR and OPS numbers and expecting the same in Wrigley. Obviously it would have been a terrible choice. I agree that he’d be a lousy swap for Soriano or even for LaHair.
Theo is filling the roster with low cost short term players at good ages while trying to prepare for next years assault on the free agency market which has depth.
I just don’t see him making a commitment to Fielder this year with so many marginal players already onboard. See what Stewart and Wood and Davis can do this year and begin jumping into the FA market next year after evaluating our prospects. Patience is the order of this year. The attendance won’t drop from the 2011 year.

If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.

by tharr on Dec 22, 2011 10:55 PM CST up reply actions  

His defensive metrics at 1st aren't bad

I view it as a “why not” kind of transaction.

Soriano is trending towards sunk cost territory. So if Dunn is a bust you are in the exact same spot.

I’d wager that Dunn is a better rebound candidate than Soriano is.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions  

He's younger.

But Soriano hasn’t really fallen off the same cliff Dunn did in 2011.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Dunn was the 2nd most consistent NL slugger over the past 10 years

I think a return to playing everyday in the NL should bring him back to form.

Just doesn’t make sense for a guy to drop from a perennial 900 OPSer to worthless in the matter of a couple months.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

With the movement of players I don't know that this would really matter

If he’s still got the ability, a few different pitchers shouldn’t be the root cause.

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 22, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Given the power swing he has and the torque generated...

…I don’t think anyone can fully understand the impact that appendectomy had on him. But I’m willing to bet it was significant.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 22, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

That's not unreasonable

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 22, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Some people just aren't good pinch hitters

I think not being in the field was a huge problem for him. He also burst his appendix the 1st week of the season.

Maybe he’s done? But it’d be worth the gamble if Fielder truly isn’t an option.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Quite possibly

Either way I’d give better than 50/50 he rebounds to something close to his previous form.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

If Fielder isn't an option ...

then the Cubs should explore a Soriano-for-Dunn swap. Agreed.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 1:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Fielder is an option

The other option is overpaying Fielder.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure what you mean by overpaying ...

but if you’re talking seven or eight years, I think we can forget it. Five or six, I’d say, is still possible.

But some team, I’m thinking Seattle, might blow everybody out of the water with an offer. If that happens, the Cubs probably will be smart to not get into a bidding war and look at other options.

IMO, one of the other options is Dunn for Soriano — though I have no idea how likely such a deal is.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 1:05 PM CST up reply actions  

You said

“If Fielder isn’t an option”

Fielder is an option. If it fits with what Theo will pay him

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure the point you're making, Tim.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Fielder is an option

You were posing a situation where he isn’t. He is. Unless he asks for too much money.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

That's not exactly what I was saying.

But whatever.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm going to disagree with you.

Dunn would be a disaster at first base. Plus, I think he’s done as a hitter. Let the White Sox stew in those juices.

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Even if it means dumping Soriano?

What could possibly be the downside?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

What's the other option if we don't get Fielder?

I’d take Dunn and salary relief over LaHair and Soriano.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Rizzo

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 1:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Rizzo for Soriano?

Sign me up!!!!!

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Big price tag.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Dec 22, 2011 2:02 PM CST up reply actions  

But we don't have what it takes to get him.

We don’t have the young talent.

We could turn Soriano into cost savings with Dunn on a deal that helps both teams (Cubs have a spot for Dunn. Cubs don’t have a spot for Soriano. White Sox have a spot for Soriano. White Sox don’t have a spot for Dunn)… and then flip Dunn the following year for value if we’re still not convinced he’ll hold up… or cut him and there’s absolutely no difference, when the team should look into doing the same with Soriano anyway.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Dec 23, 2011 2:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Of course we do

I know many are justifiably down on our system, and I know Rizzo is well-regarded, but I am certain we could get a blocked prospect who hit under .200 over 150 at bats last year.

He was terrible in his first stint in the majors, put up similar numbers to Lahair in the PCL, and put up above average numbers for a 1st baseman in the minors prior to that. I don’t know what it would take, maybe something like McNutt and Sczur, but we could get him if Theo and Hoyer really thought he was the future.

I don’t know exactly what it would

by tomas21 on Dec 23, 2011 9:43 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't think...

we can match what Tampa Bay can offer if they really wanted him. That’s more my point. Szczur and McNutt is about the best the Cubs could reasonably offer… and the Rays would trump that and not even feel a dent in their system.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Dec 23, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Yikes imagine the error total

It’s not a hyperbole to say it could easily be in 30’s

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Here's an idea...

…how about Castro making the throw ALL the way to first?

Happy Holidays to all BCBers...be safe.

by Easy Ed on Dec 22, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly

If the kid can’t field the position he needs to shift to 2nd.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Really?

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Really

As much as people wring hands over LF (Soriano) and 1st base (Dunn) defense. It’s taboo to question the glove of Castro at a MUCH more important defensive position.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

you forgot the "aw jeez" part...

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 22, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I like Castro and advocate letting him stay at Short

However not as a forever proposition. If he doesn’t significantly improve this year you need to start thinking about a shift.

If catching the ball is a priority of Thoyer regime. You can’t have a butcher manning your most important defensive position.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 12:42 PM CST up reply actions  

you didn't answer my question

How long will the learning curve be a different position?

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Doubt it would be long

He is already a career middle infielder with excellent range. Second base would tame the throws that cause the vast majority of his errors.

Learning the DP pivot would be the only real major adjustment.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow

I don’t even know to respond to that.

Learning to be a good possibly great 2nd basemen ONLY takes ability to pivot. So learning curve won’t be long.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 12:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Craig Biggio learned it in Spring Training

And he was moving from Catcher. I’m confident Castro could be passable in short order.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

He's made big strides fielding every year.

I see no reason he should stop progressing at age 23.

by Dcr18 on Dec 22, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Did he?

According to fangraphs he was worse in every fielding metric this year than in 2010.

Kids got talent. Doesn’t mean he will stick at short.

95% of all pro 2nd basemen are former Shortstops who couldn’t glove it.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

wow

That’s an interesting stat. Could you provide the link with that. It be really fasnicating to read something like that about fielding.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Fangraphs.com

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4579&position=SS

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Ok I must be missing something

I see every sabermetric stat for Castro but no link to 95% of 2nd basemen.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 3:14 PM CST up reply actions  

How many college 2nd basemen do you see get drafted?

I don’t know a single natural 2nd basemen in our whole system last year.

Barney- college SS
LeMahieu- college SS
Flaherty- college SS
Lake- Dominican league SS
Watkins- HS SS

Todd Walker and Tony Thomas are the only guys I can recall who played 2nd base in College. That’s 2 guys in 20 years who were legitimate prospects.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

95% of all pro 2nd basemen

is different than the people who were drafted by the Cubs as SS and then in the minors became 2nd basemen over the last 20 years

Again my question is where did you get that figure from?

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 8:34 PM CST up reply actions  

95% is conjecture

However I feel it is fairly accurate overall if I put some pen to paper.

Out of the 30 starting 2nd basemen in MLB last year. Not one single guy started out as a dedicated HS or College 2nd baseman. It’s traditionally a spot to hide your weakest gloved middle infielder.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 9:45 PM CST up reply actions  

then why send a link about

Castro sabermetric stats

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 9:48 PM CST up reply actions  

His fielding percentage went up 12 points, and we all know he has the range and the arm.

Give it time, it’s not like SS defense will make or break this team in 2012.

by Dcr18 on Dec 22, 2011 10:17 PM CST up reply actions  

What is it with all the hall passes to Starlin Castro for his fielding?

He has great potential, but needs to cut down on the mental errors at SS. Most major league SSs deal with a less than stellar glove at 1B. It’s called being a professional player.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 1:20 PM CST up reply actions  

everyone is aware of that

but expecting a 21 year old to polished defensively is unrealistic

by jesus christos on Dec 22, 2011 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

He's 21

He’s only be a professional for 1 1/2 seasons

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 1:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Did I have to specify in the major leagues?

B/c I believe when most people talk about how long someone’s been playing ball. They don’t include their minor league experience.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

There is a reason they are called rookies.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

And how long does this "rookie" ...

…get to keep scattering people in the dugout with his throws to first base before someone says “Hey, maybe SS isn’t his ideal position”? 3 years? 5? Sandberg moved from 3rd to 2nd and seemed to have managed.

Happy Holidays to all BCBers...be safe.

by Easy Ed on Dec 22, 2011 1:59 PM CST up reply actions  

But the free pass essentially assumes that he had never played SS before

I understand that he will be rough at first. But he has to improve from where he was in 2011. If he isn’t better this year, he probably isn’t a SS long term.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 1:59 PM CST up reply actions  

True

Give him another year to see if he does improve. But don’t already have him written off as not being able to be a good SS.

If he doesn’t then everyone of you can see I knew he won’t be a good shortstop and thought he should play another position.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

He has all the tools to be a really good SS - he needs to get his head in the game

Some of that may be coaching, but he needs to improve his decision-making.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

This is the key

I blame this on the coaching staff, but Castro is responsible too.

I don’t want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it.

by cub in louies nest on Dec 24, 2011 8:09 AM CST up reply actions  

Castro

gets a lot of passes for a lot of things around here. Nobody is expecting perfection, but I don’t think progress is too much to ask.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

He's clearly shown progress fielding, especially from 2010 to 2011.

He still has work to do, but he shouldn’t be worried about too much yet.

by Dcr18 on Dec 22, 2011 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

11ty kazillion.

We should DFA his horrible-fielding self.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

SC has very good range

As such, he makes some off-balanced throws. Some of them are off-target. Dunn would not be all Keith Hernandez at first.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Your not gonna find many SS his age with a much better fielding %.

He’s 21, most SS his age make just as many errors, you just don’t hear about it because they’re in the minor leagues.

by Dcr18 on Dec 22, 2011 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

How about

moving Castro to third?

I know a certain shortstop let go by the redbirds that could be had for cheapcheapcheap…

Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.

by section229beer on Dec 22, 2011 3:29 PM CST up reply actions  

He led the Cubs to the playoffs in 07 and 08

AND

he won a ring this year.

Success follow him!

Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.

by section229beer on Dec 22, 2011 3:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Will Corey Patterson get a ring too?

He wasn’t on their post-seaon roster. But he did finish the regular season with stl.

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 22, 2011 3:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Depends on the team.

The players vote on who gets WS shares, and rings. I suspect CP will get a ring, and at least a partial WS share of money.

Here’s the breakdown:

St. Louis awarded 51 full shares, 11.962 partial shares and eight cash awards.

Doesn’t say who got the full shares, but it’s clearly more than just the 25-man WS roster.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 4:29 PM CST up reply actions  

No matter what, Castro is going to have to learn how to throw a baseball

Have not seen any scenarios where the Cubs have a Lee/Pena quality glove at 1B in 2012.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Needs

some more baseball seasoning as well. Needs to learn when to put it in his pocket and live to fight another day.

"All I want is food and creative love" - Rusted Root

by TheRiot Police on Dec 22, 2011 2:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I think that is something that separates players who are good defensively

and ones who are mey.

Same can be said of QB’s in football

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

And....more alarmingly

Strike three….Strike six….Strike nine….Strike twelve…..all in a day’s work.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, and he only got 207 hits. What a lousy player.

That doesn’t mean that there isn’t room for improvement, but wow . . . .

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 22, 2011 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

You realize

That the previous post was about Adam Dunn don’t you? The reply thing I’m guessing makes it look otherweise….but the four K reference was concerning Adam Dunn and was in response to the original suggestion to deal Soriano for Dunn.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 2:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Apologies

Reading fail on my part.

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 22, 2011 3:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Nope

Not a reading fail…it’s hard to follow the post quite honestly. I should have been clearer to begin with.

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Far as I can tell everyone is a Castro fan

Questioning his long term defensive position isn’t condemnation.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

The deal may be good to be announced.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:06 PM CST reply actions  

The deal may be good to be announced.

This doesn’t make any sense.

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Reportedly

the deal is complete. Twitter says, ergo it must be true.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:10 PM CST up reply actions  

sarcasm

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:10 PM CST up reply actions  

All I know is that the Cubs better be close to contention when Joey Votto becomes a FA after the 2013 season

While Votto might get traded next year, he’ll almost certainly test the FA market after seeing what Pujols got and what Fielder is likely to get. I’m willing to give Theo and Jed 2 years to get their shit together, but they better be all in on Votto or I’m going to be one pissed off Cubs fan. No more excuses at that point……

by magicblue on Dec 22, 2011 12:07 PM CST reply actions  

Honest question...

Why would the cubs get Votto THEN and not Fielder NOW? Votto will be 29 in 2013, and Fielder is two years younger right now. I’d rather roll the dice with Fielder this year and try to contend these next two years rather than suck for two years and get a player of the same age, who is arguably worse.

THEO!

by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 22, 2011 12:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Votto is a GG defensive 1B and has the more projectable body type

I’d take Votto on a 7-8 year deal in his age 30-37 seasons over Fielder’s age 28-35 seasons. The only way I’d advocate Fielder is on a contract with a max of 6 years guaranteed, any additional years should be team or mutual options.

by magicblue on Dec 22, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I still disagree.

Votto is better defensively, but Prince is better offensively, and the difference, if there is one, isn’t worth waiting for.

THEO!

by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 22, 2011 12:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, between 2008-11

Votto has put up 22.9 WAR @ 5.73WAR/year with an average wOBA of .408, while Fielder has put up 17 WAR @ 4.25WAR/year with an average wOBA of 394 over the same 4 year period.

So while they’re are both very, very, very good offensively, Votto is still better. Add in his better defense and better body type and its an easy sell:

Votto >> Fielder

by magicblue on Dec 22, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

And while I want the Cubs to be all in on Fielder, if they've decided to do a rebuild and not sign Fielder

then all I’m saying is that they better be ready by 2014 and be all in on Votto. There will be no excuses if Theo and Jed don’t have the Cubs competing by the 2014 season, especially considering the fact that our current payroll obligations for the 2014 season are $20.5M for the last year of Soriano and DeJesus.

by magicblue on Dec 22, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

They aren't all in on Fielder

if they won’t go ten years. Six or seven with dual options is a reraise.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

but no idea what going to happen with Votto in next two years

Major injury production drop off.

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Same with Fielder

Which is why you don’t pick him up. In two years you go and get the best available option. Either at 1B or RF or where you actually need the production and have a hole.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

You can't predict that for Votto...

without acknowledging the major risks involved with a player with Fielder’s body type, especially since Votto is starting at a higher productivity.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Dec 23, 2011 4:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Body type

Wasn’t one of Hendry’s immediate bullet points about the length of the Soriano deal that his body type didn’t lend itself to a sharp physical decline? Knowing that it was, here is what you can do with body type projections….

by krummy12 on Dec 22, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Injuries kind of altered that projection....

Not really trying to defend JH, but it’s not like Soriano fell off a cliff naturally, his leg injuries took all of his speed, which was a major part of his game.

by bdlugz on Dec 22, 2011 9:26 PM CST up reply actions  

but he was already 31

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 9:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Youth doesnt necessarily equate health

He has more miles on his legs than your average 27 year old baseball player. He’s no different than someone like Kobe Bryant, who, while relatively young chronologically, has a ton of NBA miles on his legs since he started earlier

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Dec 22, 2011 7:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Is it from all the running he does?

Will losing a step hamper Prince Fielder in any noticeable way?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 7:50 PM CST up reply actions  

He still has to field a position if the Cubs sign him.

If I knew MLB would homogenize the DH throughout the leagues in the next couple years, I’d want the Cubs to sign Prince at any near-reasonable price right now.

His baserunning just makes him not worth what he’s asking for right now. That’s the inconvenient truth, even if it doesn’t mean the Cubs shouldn’t sign him. He almost has to hit 50 HRs to make up for what he lacks defensively and running the bases vs a player like Votto or Pujols… and they’re not exactly Rickey Henderson.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Dec 23, 2011 4:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Many comments about saving money in the Marshall trade

2.6 million from what I understand.

If saving 2.6 is such a big deal, and if we are rebuilding (which seems to be clear), why spend 10 mil on DeJesus?

"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester

by Jose's Eyelid on Dec 22, 2011 12:21 PM CST reply actions  

No.

He’ll complain after, also.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Just asking a question

I like DDJ, I just don’t see where he fits on this team at this time.

And I do hope he plays well enough to shut me up. I’d be happy to shut up if he plays to the contract or above.

"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester

by Jose's Eyelid on Dec 22, 2011 1:05 PM CST up reply actions  

right field

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

but

he’s boring. #smh

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 9:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't know what he made last year

but I do know he hit .240 and looked like an old man. Did you watch him play last year? He played bored and disinterested. If we are rebuilding, I have no idea why we would want him on the team for two years and 10 mil. If we aren’t rebuilding … well, it is clear we are, so it is a moot point. My problem with this signing has never been about DeJesus — he was a good player once. It is about spending 10 mil on a veteran we don’t really need while we have a ton of other needs. I’d rather spend 7-8 mil on Saunders for one year and flip him at mid-season. I didn’t get this signing when it happened, and today it makes even less sense.

"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester

by Jose's Eyelid on Dec 23, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

You can ALWAYS flip value, it doesn't matter what their name is.

DDJ is a 2.5 – 3.5 WAR player paid like a 1 WAR player. That’s additional value we can trade if needed. It’s a smart move no matter what the situation.

by bdlugz on Dec 23, 2011 2:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Over 3 years,

that is completely in line with his WAR projections

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions  

If getting rid of Marshall's salary

had anything to do with this deal then Lord help us.

by tomas21 on Dec 22, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Really?

We should have kept Marshall, whatever the cost? Re-up him at 7 mil per annum.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Flip that around

If getting rid of Marshall’s salary had anything to do with getting DeJesus, then Lord help us.

That’s what he sarcastically meant.

"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum

by RiskyBusiness on Dec 22, 2011 12:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Assets

You need tradeable assets. The Cubs currently have very few. Getting DeJesus gives them a relatively cheap corner OF on a short term deal. These are the first guys to be traded (if playing well) at the deadline. This is exactly how you rebuild the farm system – either in prospects via trades or compensation picks.

I hope the Cubs go out and get more of these DeJesus /Maholm /buy low sell high guys.

by nick5253 on Dec 22, 2011 1:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Still big savings over what the Cubs were paying Fukudome...

they really don’t have anybody else to take those PAs, and Theo’s probably hoping they can flip him at some point, or get a relatively cheap asset until that happens. I trust Theo with a DDJ signing more than I would Jim Hendry. Track Record.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Dec 23, 2011 4:14 AM CST up reply actions  

If they're rebuilding...

…then they need a “foundation”. They should lock up BOTH Castro and Garza for 5 or 6 years and build around them. Not sure why all the assumption that Garza needs to be traded. Prospects? Then we wait 5 more years? Hoy-Stein will learn rather quickly that the patience of Cubs’ fans is short fused.

Happy Holidays to all BCBers...be safe.

by Easy Ed on Dec 22, 2011 12:28 PM CST reply actions  

I completely agree with this. My only hope for this offseason is that the Cubs don't trade Garza. Locking him up to an extension

should be priority #1. I read that Garza and Danks are two of the most statistically similar starting pitchers in recent history. The Cubs should offer him a little more than the WSox gave Danks and lock him up and buyout his last arbitration year.

by magicblue on Dec 22, 2011 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Now would be the time to do it

2 more arbitration years gives him a little less leverage than Danks had. Maybe 5/55 or 5/60 could lock him up?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions  

So...

the Cubs should overpay for Garza because the White Sox just overpaid for Danks? I’d want a little more like what Billingsley got from the Dodgers.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Dec 23, 2011 4:16 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't like the term rebuilding...

What Theo/Jed are here to do is ‘build’. Maybe you see that as semantics, but I’m more interested in a GM (or GMs in this case) looking ahead rather than trying to make any decisions based on the past.
I am confident that the moves these guys make are made solely with the intention of building a winning franchise. And for that, I am one excited fan.

by JG23 on Dec 22, 2011 12:44 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

I think it goes beyond just "rebuilding" or "building"...

Someone a few years ago, and it might have been someone from this website, made a great analogy to a new GM or ownership being like a new homeowner. Someone buys a house and the house is not in very good shape, but it’s got some bones and potential. You fix what’s broken or you replace it with something better. And it might take some time, but eventually the house will no longer look like it did under the previous owners. It’ll be a new and improved house.

The Cubs need a lot of fixing and it’s not just improving the team to win more games. For a long time this team has lacked leadership in the clubhouse. It has lacked fundamentals, communication and spirit. Last year and even before that I saw guys who didn’t want to stand during the National Anthem, guys tanking plays, not wanting to be part of the community or the fans. I’m tired of it. Theo and Jed need to change the culture of this ballclub. You look at guys like Sandberg, Dawson, Jenkins, Banks, Williams, etc. Those guys played on teams that had a lot of fun playing together and there was a comraderie that’s been lacking in a long time. I know that a lot of guys resented Sammy Sosa in the ’90s because of many reasons. We need to have a team again. And if this is the way to do it, so be it.

by jeffmills1972 on Dec 22, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

It's uncomfy feeling

But I totally agree.

I’ve seen my favorite football win it twice in my lifetime, I want to know how that feels as baseball fan

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I couldn't agree more...

…this “he’s a great clubhouse guy” is WAY overrated. If he’s a total a-hole and hits 40 bombs and knocks in 130…EXTEND him. If he strikes out 225 hitters with a 2.50 ERA, but, refuses to kiss babies…EXTEND him too. If there’s 25 guys on the team that spit and scratch their asses in public, don’t give to charities, BUT win a WORLD SERIES…THAT WOULD BE GREAT.

Happy Holidays to all BCBers...be safe.

by Easy Ed on Dec 22, 2011 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

I think it is long overdue for the Cubs to rebuild...

It will be frustrating for the next couple of years, but I will take short-term pain for long-term gain any day. If it means building for the long haul and having a team that is a perennial contender for the next decade, I’m all for it.

by jeffmills1972 on Dec 22, 2011 1:04 PM CST reply actions  

Apologize if you've covered this above

how do you define competitive now? Contention for the division or just improving on last year? 10 wins better so they’re back to .500?

As someone that’s been an advocate for a rebuild, I agree that the Cubs shouldn’t just lay down and give games away. But I think that realistically, 64-70 wins is about how good we should expect the Cubs to be in 2012.

by ScottT on Dec 22, 2011 1:32 PM CST reply actions  

If the 2012 Cubs are that bad

… they risk selling many, many fewer tickets than they did in 2011 and before, with the resulting loss of revenue perhaps contributing to a lower payroll — and thus a worse team — in the future.

You’ve got to show improvement over last year. That includes both building an organization AND putting a good team on the field for 2012.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I think a lot of people

are just seeing numbers on paper and not realizing the real-world implications at work here.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure that's correct...

…as of now, the team that finished 20 games under .500 in 2011, lost their 2 best run producers, and their top FA signing is David freakin’ DeJesus. That speaks volumes, NBF.
The Cubs of 2011 vs. the “as of now” Cubs 2012? 2011 wins. It’s gonna be an ugly year comin’ up.

Happy Holidays to all BCBers...be safe.

by Easy Ed on Dec 22, 2011 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, but

… I don’t think the “as of now” Cubs will be the team taking the field on April 5.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

How many Red Sox made it through the first year of Theo?

I think the answer is eight.

Right now gone from last year: Lopez, Marshall, Grabow, Wood, Hill, Pena, Ramirez, and Colvin.

How many and who will survive to September is anyone’s guess.

by jpeters407 on Dec 22, 2011 6:49 PM CST up reply actions  

This is as good a place as any to put a comment I've been wanting to make

in light of the Red Sox history you mention. To many fans, it seems the term “rebuild” means shedding salary, getting younger players, and being willing to be a below-.500 team for a year or two. To Theo, it may well be that the term “rebuilding” means “get all these lousy players off my roster and replace them with guys who can actually play.” As part of that, one goal is to get younger players because they still have a chance to improve, and if the club hits the jackpot on someone coming back from an injury or getting their first shot at full-time play, the club gets to benefit from that for a few years. However, I honestly believe TheJedi think they can pick up a bunch of players on the cheap, make a couple big trades, and have a shot at a winning record even in a year when they are changing over 80% of the roster. “Anyone goes” in trade rumors, but not just for “prospects” but for multiple players in return who can help now and in the future.

by cubzfan on Dec 22, 2011 9:24 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

I think you are right.

Otherwise they would have taken a “high upside” minor league pitcher over someone like Travis Wood.

by jpeters407 on Dec 22, 2011 9:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope this is true

To Theo, it may well be that the term "rebuilding" means "get all these lousy players off my roster and replace them with guys who can actually play.

TheJedi<<< funny

The Stat Pack

by shoemile on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 PM CDT

by Madison Cub Fan on Dec 22, 2011 9:35 PM CST up reply actions  

I think this is true

While I hate to see players like Marshall and Garza go, these are the guys who will net the largest return in both solid Major Leaguers & high upside prospects. They were left with a system that lacked quality. I do think we will see results on the field this season.

I don’t want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it.

by cub in louies nest on Dec 24, 2011 8:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Years ago

the White Sox season motto was “winning ugly”. The 2012 Cubs might think about making “losing ugly” their season motto (of course the White Sox were “all in” in 2011, well, “all in” in a half-in half-out, dosey do and turn about, maybe-maybe not kind of way). Or maybe the Cubs can have their motto be “Just wait til next year but please don’t stop watching us in the meantime”.

by ddoubleheader on Dec 22, 2011 6:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I think fans understand that this isn't going to turn around in a year

I’m OK with the team taking a step backward in ‘12. I’m honestly not expecting them to have a better team than this year’s. If it happens, then great. I’ve been on the bandwagon too long to jump off during Theo/Jed’s first year in charge.

by JG23 on Dec 22, 2011 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

AAA prices for the AAA Chicago Cubs?

BTW I’ve read that the A team (in 1972, a crack baseball unit was…) the Peoria Cubs have been losing a lot of money the past number of years and may need to relocate.

by ddoubleheader on Dec 22, 2011 6:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I've already made a decison to only purchase a select game or two prior to the season.

And if I want to enjoy going to any other games this year, I’ll purchase them day of game for dirt cheap.

I was stuck holding too many extra tickets last year, nobody wanted to go, and there was no market to sell them.

I can always buy a bleacher ticket on a whim and sit all the way in the left field corner:)

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Dec 22, 2011 2:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope you're right

and I hope that the Cubs have some surprises coming, but without Pena and ARam, they’re losing a big chunk of the offensive talent from last year and DeJesus and Stewart aren’t going to match the run production lost.

Everywhere else is essentially the same, save if the Wood trade goes through, he should be an improvement over the pitcher of the week project every 5 days last season.

But the team as currently constructed? 64-70 wins due to loss of significant offensive production from the corner spots.

I understand what you’re saying about the product on the field and the revenue consequences and I agree. A lot can happen in the next 2 months, and I hope it does.

I think, and it’s just my opinion, that the writing is on the wall with the moves made and not made this offseason and the Cubs are not going to be major players insofar as being in contention in 2012.

by ScottT on Dec 22, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Just stopping by to say great article Al.

I’ve been crazy busy and it looks like I’ve been missing some fun around here. This was a good update for me. Enjoyed your comparison. I like the optimism of fixing things AND staying competitive. It would be great if they can pull that off, but I honestly don’t mind sacrificing next year if it means greatness for many future years to come.

PS-Happy and safe holidays to all of you.

♪ He held me very tight under stars so bright and whispered darlin' "Who do you love tonight?" I told him "baseball, baseball...." ♫

by katie casey on Dec 22, 2011 1:47 PM CST reply actions  

Thanks!

And happy holidays to you and your family, too.

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Player value

The pattern, so far, is to sign players who had a rough 2011 season and were able to play at the major league level before then. They were expendable and relatively cheap to sign in part because 2011 was not their year. They are filling vacancies this way because the system can’t supply the low cost players to fill them. One trade doesn’t make a pattern, but it is still worth mentioning that TheoJed probably didn’t think Marshall was worth more than a low cost player to fill a vacancy in the rotation.

I think Jackson will be brought up when they think he’s ready. They should definitely pick up another pitcher; question is how they will do that. Fielder doesn’t fit the pattern.

TheoJed are clearly not on board to be signing players to big contracts. But the low cost players do have to go up in value considerably, ideally all of them. The process of fielding consistently good teams will at best be slow if player value doesn’t increase. The two would overlap, but we should probably count the number of players who increase in value in 2012 instead of number of games won.

by AboutTheCubs on Dec 22, 2011 2:59 PM CST reply actions  

The only way this team could be made into a contender in 2012

Would be to throw a crap ton of money at the FA market. We’re in this position now because of that, so it won’t be happening again. The Cubs are an old team with very few guys on the rise on the roster or in the upper levels of the minors, so the Cubs will do their best to build something up. As I’ve stated many times before, I don’t think Theo and Jed like the makeup of this roster all that much. They’ll replace as many guys as they can, and hope they pan out. A complete rebuild would be grabbing half the roster from Iowa and placing it at Clark and Addison. That’s not going to happen.

Theo! Good job, Tommy Boy!

by shoemile on Dec 22, 2011 3:20 PM CST reply actions  

I don't disagree with this.

I just think that a signing of Prince Fielder, on top of some of the moves already made and others like them, would at least put a team on the field that people would want to pay to watch.

That would help future revenues and payrolls.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions  

And, more importantly,

Fielder should be just entering the prime of his career. He should be good for a while. Just like Garza.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 22, 2011 7:26 PM CST up reply actions  

I would agree with that except for his weight.

How much does body type change those types of projections? That is my major concern with giving Fielder a large contract. I like him. He is a great player and would help sell tickets. I don’t want to see the team hamstrung by a contract that could be bad in two or three years.

I don’t want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it.

by cub in louies nest on Dec 24, 2011 8:45 AM CST up reply actions  

I got to thinking

and Dallas Green did also inherit Mel Hall, who was pretty highly regarded in 1981 even if he had been a second round pick. (Taken nine picks before Cal Ripken).

Pat Tabler was considered pretty decent too.

by Josh Timmers on Dec 22, 2011 4:00 PM CST reply actions  

Wonder what Mel Hall is up to nowadays?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 4:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Were you serious?

He’s been in prison since 2009.

Former major league outfielder Mel Hall was sentenced to 45 years in prison Wednesday after being convicted of raping a 12-year-old girl he coached on an elite basketball team.

Hall was convicted on three counts of aggravated sexual assault and two counts of indecency with a child. Among his accusers during sentencing Wednesday were others who said he carried on inappropriate relationships with them.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

ugh

something I will never be able to wrap my head around… disgusting.

by daily2b on Dec 22, 2011 4:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh my god... WTF?

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Dec 22, 2011 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

So what you are saying is?......

Mel Hall WON’T be at the Cubs convention this year?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 4:53 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm thinking not.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the Cubs need to deal Garza in this market after seeing what the A's and Pads got

for Latos and Gonzo

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Dec 22, 2011 4:42 PM CST reply actions  

I have been in the "don't trade Garza" camp.

However, I have to say, after seeing what teams got in those deals, it has to be tempting for TheoJed.

I’m mulling over my opposition.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Kaplan just said on the radio that Prince signed with the Mariners...

But I don’t see anything anywhere else. Yu Darvish all over again!

THEO!

by wrigleyrocker12 on Dec 22, 2011 5:22 PM CST reply actions  

Not so fast my friend...

Here’s the setup:

The quiet offseason for the Seattle Mariners took a turn this afternoon thanks to a tweet from Miami Marlins outfielder Logan Morrison, who let go with this wowzer: "Just heard from my boy that Prince to Seattle is a done deal…"

And here’s the punch line:

And, consider this: Prince – the rock star, not the chubby first baseman – played in Tacoma on Monday.
And this from LoMo’s twitter account at about 2:50 p.m. : "Oh $hit, you guys thought I meant the 1B from Milwaukee. My bad. (I love all of you. Happy Holidays!)"

Link to the whole blog entry on The News Tribune

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Dec 22, 2011 5:31 PM CST up reply actions  

That would be a classic if Kaplan fell for that

and tried to break the “big” news before anyone else.

by jpeters407 on Dec 22, 2011 5:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Heh.

Yeah.

Looks like Morrison was messing around. Guess this is the baseball version of the “ZOMG BON JOVI DIED” meme from earlier this week.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 5:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Wowzer?

Did Inspector Gadget inspect that tweet?

by ddoubleheader on Dec 22, 2011 6:47 PM CST up reply actions  

BON JOVI DIED???

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Dec 22, 2011 8:46 PM CST up reply actions  

That was as accurate

as the Blue Jays winning the Darvish Derby

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 9:01 PM CST up reply actions  

What a putz Kaplan is...

His source is a prank tweet. LOL. Priceless.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Dec 22, 2011 6:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks

While I won’t be posting here much in the future (goodnews to many here) I will check in from time to time. And Al’s post here is the kind of insight and prospective that drew me here years ago.

by DrCrawdad on Dec 22, 2011 5:44 PM CST reply actions  

I appreciate that.

Happy holidays to you.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 22, 2011 5:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Much done?

padawan of TheoJedi Masters

by LongLiveHarryCaray on Dec 22, 2011 6:09 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Morrison for Soriano?!!!!!!!

Count me in!

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Dec 22, 2011 6:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Absolute Zero

for Zambrano/Soriano? Sounds like a wrestler. Probably makes nice plays off the turnbuckle.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 22, 2011 8:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Going to be a painful couple of years but Holiday turns 32 in three weeks. Furcal is 34. Berkman turns 36 in February. Carpenter and Beltran will turn 37 and 35 respectively in April. Even Wainwright just turned 30 in August and Yadier Molina will be 30 in July.

I’m seeing Epstein’s wisdom on a total rebuild even more with that crew in place.

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by Tweed Thornton on Dec 22, 2011 7:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Cards are an older team, but they are better, too

They are obviously in for “right now” and willing to pay for it down the line.

by ClarkFan on Dec 22, 2011 8:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep, it looks like there are a top three

a second pair and the Astros. The Crew, Reds, and Cardinals are all making win now moves and will fade in a couple of years. Hopefully the Cubs can step into that void.

by jpeters407 on Dec 22, 2011 8:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Right, older and much better. Makes sense to rebuild when your competition is way ahead of you right now but there’s also a clear window opening up in two-three years.

Hot Time In Old Town SB Nation's blog for Chicago Fire, Soccer, & Chicago History

by Tweed Thornton on Dec 23, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Most of those guys are under contract for 1-2 years at most.

The plan is to contend with those guys and then build around Holliday, Wainwright and Freese, and Molina if he plans on staying.

by mattisnotfrench on Dec 22, 2011 8:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Question for Al

Why does it have to be a complete rebuild OR trying to buy a team through free agency. Al, you talk about the Dallas Green rebuild, but are you willing to wait until 2014 for a decent product? Should you, if the Cubs are truly a major market team? Or are they becoming a mid-market team as it appears? I have no problem with the little moves they are making, but where are the true building blocks going to come from? It’s a shame Fielder is such a bad fit – not athletic, bad defense that will add to Castro’s error total. They really need to land Cespedes and maybe his 19-year-old counterpart. At least that would suggest they are moving forward.

by Bill Bonham on Dec 22, 2011 10:46 PM CST reply actions  

I think we can count last year as the start of a rebuild.

It’s not 0%, but the chance of a couple of MLB regulars not coming from that haul is pretty low.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

@JamesDaBear

by jameslcrockett on Dec 23, 2011 4:23 AM CST up reply actions  

This is kind of what I've been saying.

You CAN do both.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 23, 2011 9:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Doesn't seem to be the case

Looks like they are putting together a middling team while building a foundation.

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 23, 2011 9:29 AM CST up reply actions  

If that's the case,

it’s asinine. But I’m not sure that’s the case right now.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 23, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Rebuilds are fine when done right

I don’t think any fan wants to endure lot’s of losing, but in some cases it’s worthwhile. The Braves had a lot of losing before a decade or so of lot’s of winning. Same story in a lot of other cities.

I think Cub fans need to know this isn’t a 5-10 yr. rebuild, to endure the losing that will inevitably come in the short-term as Theo’s crew rights the ship.

Also, something that can get them competitive and in contention in the next 3-5 yrs would be nice because player development has been such a mixed bag with the Cubs, bordering on abysmal .

On paper nothing that’s been done in terms of the team (the product on the field) would lead me to believe next yrs. team will be “more” competitive than last season’s. Of course that can still change, there’s still time for a Christmas miracle or two.

I’m willing to be patient, to a degree. I think there are some quality players on the roster, but I don’t know if what’s here is “championship” core material beyond a couple of players. That ’84 scenario Al mentions really kind of fell into place. Nobody knew the “daily double” would be so effective, or that Sarge would have such an outstanding season. When they needed that 1 quality arm to compete with the Mets that yr. they had a Joe Carter to deal without really hurting the major league roster too badly. Do the Cubs really have that right now?

by cubby23 on Dec 22, 2011 11:06 PM CST reply actions  

so what's the deal with the

Manny corpas signing? is he just a body?

Mike Brown is the true definition of a businessman:
1.Build bare essentials to run business(PB Stadium)-✔
2.Hire cheap players-✔
3.When you suck don't give in to anyone's demands-✔
4. Change is a bad thing-✔

by RIP Slim on Dec 23, 2011 12:16 AM CST via Android app reply actions  

Low cost (I presume) gamble.

If he has good numbers, we flip him in July for a prospect. If he pitches well in Arizona in March, and someone needs a pen arm, we flip him then.

It fits the profile.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 23, 2011 6:47 AM CST up reply actions  

ISWYDT

Step Two: Develop an organizational plan

by Shanghai Badger on Dec 23, 2011 8:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Manny Corpas?

Who’s next on the list,
Amicus Curiae?
Cui Bono?
Whit Mandamus?

by ddoubleheader on Dec 23, 2011 4:18 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

So, someone explain

why signing Travis Wood, who wasn’t great last year and Ian Stewart, who can play defensively at 3B, but isn’t gangbusters AB, is an indication of something good? I’m not sure with all the other pieces of the team, that the Cubs will even be competitive in 2012. It could be even a longer season than 2011.

"I don't believe in curses." -- Theo Epstein

by DebT on Dec 23, 2011 4:45 PM CST reply actions  

It may well be.

But we have to trade movable parts to clear salary for the future.

The goal is no longer third place in the division. The goal is championships.

No, Ian Stewart won’t start for a pennant winner. But by getting movable pieces for less movable ones, Theo will be able to spend (wisely) on numerous good free agents as soon as next off-season. We will also have a better pipeline of talent.

10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.

by timh815 on Dec 23, 2011 4:53 PM CST up reply actions  

it

will be a tough 2012.unless these players overachieve i can see another 90 loss season.the pitching is so so but the team has no power.so scoring runs could be a struggle.

by NOMAR on Dec 24, 2011 7:57 AM CST reply actions  

To address some concerns about ticket sales

Do people really think that this rebuilding process will really hamper revenue via the turn styles? People are going to show up no matter what. It’s Wrigley Field. The buses from Iowa are not stopping any time soon.

I think people will support this product knowing that the direction the franchise is heading in will sustain future success. People stopped showing up the last couple years because Jim Hendry kept providing a rehashed product of fallen stars and mediocre free agents.

The Cubs are not the Chicago White Sox and this isn’t 1975. Cubs games are an experience and people will come.

The point of this rant is that if people are advocating Fielder for the main purpose of “garnering interest” or “selling tickets” in 2012, it’s misguided—I doubt anyone thinks that’s the sole or even primary reason for signing him but.

I believe that TheoJed will make the correct decisions.

Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson

by TheBeerBaron on Dec 24, 2011 8:09 AM CST reply actions  

People are going to show up no matter what. It’s Wrigley Field.

This is the way the marketing people think. I do not believe it’s true any more.

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by Al Yellon on Dec 24, 2011 9:24 AM CST up reply actions  

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