Offseason Checkpoint: Where do we stand?
by CubFan90 on Dec 30, 2011 1:10 PM CST
Email
PrintAs I sat in the office on this fine Friday , I came to the realization that doing work was secondary to something much more vital. Obviously, that’s looking at the Cubs current projected 25-man roster. In all seriousness, I know this is extremely early, and I’m not doing it for the same of attempting to guess our roster correctly or anything like that. In my opinion, looking at our current situation sheds more light on what TheoCo may be attempting to do as far as trades/signings are concerned.
Starters:
Catcher- Soto
First Base- LaHair
Second Base- Barney
Third Base- Stewart/Baker (I think it’ll end up more of a platoon)
Shortstop- Castro
Left Field- Soriano
Center Field- Byrd
Right Field- DeJesus
Order: (optional order)
1.DeJesus (1. DeJesus)
2.Castro (2. Barney)
3.Byrd (3. Castro)
4.Stewart (4. LaHair)
5.LaHair (5. Stewart)
6.Soriano (6. Soriano)
7.Soto (7. Byrd)
8. Barney (8. Soto)
Bench:
-Baker
-DeWitt
-Johnson
-Sappelt/Campana
-Castillo/Clevenger
Rotation:
SP1- Garza
SP2- Dempster
SP3- Zambrano
SP4- T. Wood
SP5- Wells
Bullpen:
CL- Marmol
SU-K. Wood (my only assumption here)
SU-Russell (maybe Samardzija or Cashner)
MR-Samardzija
MR-Maine/Beliveau
MR-Sonnanstine/Corpas
MR-Cashner
As you can see there is still a lot in the air, as well there should be at this point in the offseason. As far as pitching goes, Cashner’s future will be one of the more interesting ones to follow, as JedStein decide where he will be most valuable this year. Spellcheck may have an opportunity to create some of that depth at SP that Theo wants as well. Wells may become expendable soon if other options present themselves.
What I find most intriguing is the current depth in the outfield. As of now, we have to assume they are all here, and that pushes Jackson back to AAA. Johnson was signed to be a reserve outfielder, leaving a battle between Sappelt and Campana for the final outfield spot. If Byrd is moved, that tells me Theo is comfortable enough with Jackson in center, as there is no one else viable to handle that position on an everyday basis. I think this leaves Soriano as the most influential piece of the outfield. If he is either moved or waived (I know, it’s beyond unlikely, this is all hypothetical anyways), suddenly left field is open for Byrd, center is open for Jackson, and we still have the fortunate position of depth behind them in Campana, Sappelt and Johnson.
Looking at the order is awfully sad. Please realize I am not a fan of either lineup very much. The worst is the idea that Byrd could be batting 3rd again. As I look at the starters, I simply don’t see that many options though. In a perfect world Castro would be there, but who knows if he is ready for that yet, much less if we have anyone that can fill the spot behind him well enough to give him pitches to hit.
All in all, there is some flexibility being put into place on the mound, both in the rotation and the bullpen, as well as in the outfield (more than can be said for years past). There is a giant hole in the order at the 3 spot, and an unknown quantity starting at First base in this scenario, thus I think Fielder is still a big option for us. I’m tired of writing, and I’m sure you are tired of reading, but does looking at the big picture bring any thoughts to you that haven’t been talked about ad nauseum here?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
147 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
That's a pretty...
disgusting lineup for a major market team like the Cubs.
There have been some positives this offseason (getting rid of Koyie Hill, not signing Pujols to a 10 year deal, maximizing Marshall’s trade value), but overall this has been a very, very disappointing offseason to date.
Obviously there is a lot of time for the lineup to be bolstered.
Leading me to believe we end up with Fielder or Rizzo. I just don’t see many other feasible options that could satisfy enough of the fan base.
Well
Don’t let Al hear you say that. That is way too negative…and far too rational.
Or far too premature.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
So the season opens
tomorrow? It’s not even 2012 yet.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 30, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
We're...
already two full months into the offseason, and we’ve seen numerous other teams (including our direct competition) make several smart moves to help them get better in 2012. Meanwhile, we’ve let our best run producer walk while replacing him with a guy who’s OPS was FOUR HUNDRED points worse last year, and haven’t really done much of anything to upgrade the offense.
This team, as currently constructed, sucks.
this team with fielder and ramirez would still suck
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Dec 30, 2011 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
And with Aramis ...
it would just be money spent on a veteran who wouldn’t help long term.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Ya...
… teams that are not in the midst of a massive overhaul, not only to their front office personnel, but to the philosophy of said front office? Or would you rather Theo, Jed and crew come in here and trade off possible players without having a full grasp of both those specific players as well as the assets in the organization as a whole?
and you're assuming there won't be any more changes.
excellent
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 31, 2011 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
Of course I'm not.
And I’ve made that perfectly clear on more than one occasion in this very thread. I’m not sure how/why you’re missing that.
because
your insistence that the offseason sucks is so vehement, it drowns anything else out.
It’s barely 2012 in a few hours. There’s months left.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 31, 2011 9:54 PM CST up reply actions
I dunno
I’m neither a cynic nor a kool-aid drinker but I was easily able to follow along in kanderber’s posts and clearly saw phrases like (my bold):
this has been a very, very disappointing offseason to date.
and
This team, as currently constructed, sucks.
So yeah, he’s not too happy with how things have gone so far, but he’s not saying this is it.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It's way too premature
There’s a lot of time left before the season begins. I know some of what’s been done is a little underwhelming, but some of it has been pretty good, too.
We’ll see how it goes from here.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 30, 2011 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
I understand why the worries are mounting.
It’s nearly January, and right now our best option to hit cleanup might be Bryan LaHair. That’s scary. But to draw up a lineup — and be disgusted by it — on Dec. 30 is kind of pointless. It’s still possible that Fielder’s price drops to where the Cubs can sign him to a deal that fits into the long-term plans. Or, perhaps, the Cubs get a good enough haul in a trade for some veterans to land Rizzo.
In terms of general strategy, the Cubs really had three options going into this offseason, two of which they’ve tried unsuccessfully over the past five years.
1) Spend major cash (offseasons 2006-08)
Unlikely because it could have likely caused the same problems that we’re facing now — or possibly worse because the team after 2006 was better than the team after 2011 for the simple fact that Aramis, Lee and Zambrano were in their primes.
2) Make patchwork signings in hopes of catching lightning in a bottle (offseason 2009-10)
It didn’t work after 2009 and 2010, and I highly doubt it would work now because the holes are greater and the veterans are aging and getting worse. The ship didn’t need to be patched. It needed to be rebuilt.
3) Tear down and rebuild
They chose this option because it’s not going to produce much worse of a team than a patchwork strategy would and because they’ve (thankfully) learned from the mistakes of five years ago. Repeating the 2006 offseason strategy might have made a better team in 2012. But the Cubs would have to spend so much and commit to so many long-term deals that in order to get to 85 wins (the 2007 team’s win total, and what’s about the bare minimum to make the postseason) we might be in worse shape in five years than we are now.
The Cubs probably won’t be a contender in 2012. I’m holding out hope that the upcoming eat-your-peas season can at least be made more interesting by a few moves — i.e. more of a youth movement and less contract-expiration watch. With that in mind, here’s what I’m hoping for over the next couple months.
1) Sign Fielder or trade for Rizzo
2) Trade Byrd and hand Jackson the starting CF job
3) Hang on to Garza (unless the return is just too good to ignore)
A lineup of DeJesus, Jackson, Castro, Fielder/Rizzo, Stewart, Soriano, Soto, Barney would at least make me want to watch (replacing Byrd with Jackson and LaHair with Fielder or Rizzo makes this team more fun).
If, six weeks from now, Rizzo/Fielder are not Cubs and Byrd is still in uniform — or if something else pretty major doesn’t happen — well, then I’ll be disgusted right along with you. But there is still a LOT of time.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
by elgato on Dec 30, 2011 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Good summary.
I’ve been kicking around the beginnings of a FP on this topic but I’ll just leech of this for now.
At the risk of angering the Semantics Gods, I’d label your three options – Reload, Retool, Rebuild, respectively.
What I find intriguing/interesting is that signing Fielder and extending Garza are viable actions that could actually fit in both Retool and Rebuild scenarios. I’m still hopeful these actions will happen but at this point not holding my breath on either.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The variables are ...
1) How much will Prince get?
2) How much would Garza bring back in a trade?
If Prince wants too much, then he falls out of the Rebuild, and if the take from Garza is something we can’t pass up, then he does, too.
Seems like the offseason is really centered around those two things for the Cubs (with the possible Rizzo variable in there, too).
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Here's the other key litmus test I'm really curious about...
Although I think signing Prince and/or extending Garza could still fit into the Rebuild scenarios, I can understand those who say nope, if we’re going to rebuild, we should trade for Rizzo and/or collect a bevy of young talent for Garza.
So with that in mind, and taking what TheoJed have already said on the subject, I will be very very very very disappointed if we don’t sign Soler. I’ll admit my knowledge is extremely limited on him and Cespedes but it sounds like Cespedes is major-league ready (or very close to) and is looking for a sizable contract, whereas Soler is probably due for a year (maybe 2?) of minor league seasoning, and thus probably comes with a cheaper pricetag.
So in a Rebuild scenario, Soler seems to be a perfect fit, both in talent and in big league timeline. Seeing as how it’s not a posting fee situation (like Darvish) Cubs would certainly have the money to outbid anyone else. Now if Soler simply does not want to sign with the Cubs, I guess there’s nothing you can do about that, but in every other situation, it’d have to be considered a major fail if the Cubs don’t sign him.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Spending cash...
doesn’t cause problems. Spending it wildly and foolishly can cause problems, yes. But making smart spending decisions can cause pennants. I’m not advocating that the Cubs throw around money like a drunken Jim Hendry, but they do need to sign Prince Fielder. He’s EXACTLY what this team needs.
And while we’re on the subject of Fielder… can you explain to me why you lump Fielder and Rizzo into the same discussion over and over? One is one of the best hitters in the game, the other is a guy who failed on a Tyler Colvin-like level in his only MLB experience. I acknowledge the fact that he is young and has a lot of potential, but to lump him in with a premium player seems strange to me.
So...quick question:
at what point (in terms of money/years) would a contract with fielder be a bad idea in your opinion?
That's the key question.
Saying ‘We need Fielder!’ is the type of logic that got us Soriano for eight years. I think TheoJed are definitely in on Fielder, but only on the right kind of contract.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
You're using statements that are generally correct ...
to justify a bad strategy, i.e.:
Spending cash… doesn’t cause problems.
No, of course it doesn’t. But, as I outlined above, the Cubs could either make a bunch of minor moves that wouldn’t do enough or they could go 2006-07-style crazy and try to get into the playoff conversation.
Now, you’re probably thinking that TheoJed are better than Hendry, so if they spent $300 million or so, they could do it without a Soriano contract and the Cubs could still get back into contention. I’d counter that any improvement in the front office is probably offset by the fact that, after 2006, the Cubs had three cornerstone players entering or firmly in their primes (Z, Ramirez, Lee).
I’m lumping Rizzo in because I think it’s possible that the Cubs are working to get pieces to trade for him, and that he might be the best option if Fielder wants more than 6 years (which is the maximum I’d give Fielder). Rizzo wouldn’t be Fielder off the bat, obviously, but a lineup built around Castro and Rizzo for the next five years would be at least interesting — and it could be very good in a season or two.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
by elgato on Dec 31, 2011 7:45 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree with this, and a common fallacy around the blog-sphere
Just because Jim Hendry was terrible at spending money doesn’t mean that spending money is a bad idea. The fact that this is a major market franchise and by all accounts one of the top revenue generating franchises. I hate that we are getting into a penny pinching mode in Wrigleyville.
What is so wrong with spending money and building the MLB club while ALSO building up the minor league system?
Why does it have to be either or?
What would the Boston or Yankee fans say if ownership there dropped payroll more than 50% in two years? I’m kind of disappointed there isn’t more backlash.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Why is that idiotic?
Have you not been paying attention to what is going on? Garza and Byrd being sent out puts us in the 70’s Right now.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Because neither of those has happened yet, and
if they do come to pass, the Cubs’ payroll will not remain at such a low level for very long.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 4, 2012 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sorry, but if you really think payroll is gonna be 70 million you're clueless.
We currently have about 63 million commited to six players alone.Do yourself a favor and step away from the keyboard.
Do the math
Heck, I’ll do it for you.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0Ah4PW47PiAi-dDVmNFRzVENYSTF2OXJwVUUyNVJIaFE&output=html
We have 52 Million committed to guys from last year who aren’t on the block.
6 Million for Marlon Byrd who is very much on the block
Arbitration 2 for Garza
An unknown amount for DeJesus on his 2/10 contract.
And a couple of lower tiered arbitration guys.
Even if Garza and Byrd do stay. We are sitting at between 90-95 depending on what the arbitrators rule.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Even if that is true, do you actually think it will remain that way for long?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 4, 2012 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
I honestly have no idea?
Everything we have head from Ricketts has been about “cost per win” and “getting maximum value”
To me it sounds like he is really enamored with the San Diego, Arizona, Tampa Bay type of model.
We have yet to see him spend on a legitimate tier 1 free agent yet. We haven’t really even be linked to anyone at this point. At what point does that become a concern?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Do you believe Theo agreed
to be in charge of a mid-market franchise?
It is hardly a concern since Theo has only been on board for a few months. Take a deep breath and relax.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 4, 2012 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
Is it possible that Theo
Grew tired of the Boston ownership situation and took a job where he had full autonomy?
Guys entertain lesser market jobs all the time. Especially if they are given a bigger title and the ability to hire all their buddies to come along.
I hope I am wrong. But everything I’ve seen and heard from Ricketts is about maximizing HIS OWN profits.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Theo
Is it possible that Theo grew tired of the Boston ownership situation and took a job where he had full autonomy?
Uhh, no. He worked for Billy Beane in Oakland. I doubt he wants that kind of situation. He wants to have the flexibility to build a team that competes year after year.
Finally, I will double down on bdlugz’s question to you:
Find me one single quote from Ricketts about maximizing his own personal profits from the Cubs.
Can you produce the evidence to support your contention?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 4, 2012 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
What a load of bullshit.
If this was true, how come Ricketts let the payroll be 130 million plus last year? Newsflash: the reason there hasn’t been a huge free agent signing since Ricketts took over is because of the hideous contracts that were already tying up the payroll. That’s why Hendry had to give a ten million deal to Pena, instead of signing elite free agents to 15+ million dollar salaries. This offseason, the only elite free agent I’d even want is Fielder, and he may not fit into Theo’s plan, or might just not want to come to a rebuilding team.
Once I see the season payroll drop under 100 million, I might start taking your sky-is-falling approach more seriously. Until then, I see no reason not to expect us to stay one of the highest spending teams in baseball.
What choice did he have last year?
He signed 1 guy to last years team. And he made that guy take a partial 3 section deferment package to sign.
Ignore the signs if you choose. Just know that you heard it here first.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
And also added Wood and Garza.
He didn’t have to add Pena. He could have had Hendry go for a lot cheaper option. And if he was really worried about money, he would have wanted to trade Marmol, not sign him to a big extension.
Please, think and research before you type stupid shit.
It becomes a concern when it makes sense to get a legitimate tier 1 free agent and we don't try.
You’re reading way too much into what he’s saying and twisting it to fit this weird vision you have.
Evaluating the cost per win of the top franchises in baseball helps you understand what makes them successful. His theory should be that if they maximize the amount spent per win, they should be able to dominate the central every year as they are far and away the biggest market. Dominating the central every year is his goal.
It doesn't make sense to try and get a tier 1 free agent now?
We are looking at 110 loss season right now.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
So that tier 1 free agent gives you 6 WAR and you have... a 104 loss season?
Nope, doesn’t make sense to me.
Disagree
If the tier 1 player is a guy like Fielder, it makes sense for the Cubs to get him now. It is not about 2012, or even 2013, it is 2014 and beyond. Fielder will make the team better, a lot better in 2014, too, but he is available now, not then.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 4, 2012 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
And you can argue that, I just don't happen to agree at this point.
Just a matter of opinion.
Why does it make sense to wait
when a key piece of the rebuilt team is available right now? Waiting for Votto is a bigger roll of the dice than signing Fielder now … much bigger. Get Fielder now and get the other pieces as they become available either through player development, trade and/or free agency.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 4, 2012 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
I personally don't believe Fielder is the answer for this team, that's all.
You do and I can see that point of view as well, I just don’t happen to agree with it is all.
I agree if Theo and Jed see a piece they feel fits the team in the future, there is absolutely no reason not to sign them now. If they decide that piece is Fielder I’ll back that move 100% as well.
No one player is the answer as they have too many holes to fill,
but but Fielder could be a big part of the eventual answer
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 6, 2012 7:53 AM CST up reply actions
And I'm not disagreeing, it certainly is possible.
He is also a big enough question mark in my mind that his health and consistency in years 4-8 worry me a lot.
You can also argue Fielder may not be worth the money/years he’s looking for. He has, over the past 5 years been a 4.2 WAR/year player. Over the past 3 years that increases to 5.1 WAR/year. His down years do concern me, where he posted 1.7 WAR in 2008 and 3.4 WAR in 2010.
I just don’t see him as consistent enough, or with a high enough peak to justify a 180-200 million dollar contract. Like I said though, this is just my opinion and I’m trying to explain why I’m not necessarily for, but also not totally against Fielder.
Ok.
So assuming Garza is paid about eight million, Garza, Dejesus, Zambrano, Dempster, Soriano, Byrd, and Marmol take up about 77 million alone. 18 million to the rest of the roster sounds fair. So first of all, there is a huge difference in the 70 million that you first projected and now the 90-95 number. Even if we made no more acquistions and traded both Garza and Byrd, it would be 75.5-80.5 million.
Secondly, if Garza and Byrd were traded, what leads you to believe that Theo and Jed wouldn’t make any more free agent signings? If Garza is gone, we have Dempster, Z, Wells, Wood, and what else? I seriously doubt Theo would go into the season with that, he’d surely sign at least a Maholm type SP, and maybe even go bigger for a guy like Oswalt. He could replace Byrd with BJax, but we’ve also been rumored for Cespedes, which would add a substantial amount of money. And we’re known to be major players for Soler, and bidding might end up going pretty high for that.
You say it yourself below, “I honestly have no idea”. There is still a whole lot of money left to be spent on free agents all around baseball during this offseason, so before proclaiming the Cubs a 70 million dollar team in 2012, maybe you should wait for the rest of their moves to play out.
great summary well done
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
It is better to spend money like there's no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there's no money! - Irish toast.
Good summary EG.
And I agree with your options for “major” transactions that could still take place, though I’d even add extending Garza as a possible “move”.
The only thing I’m not sure about is Rizzo. Many BCBers seem to be lathered up to get this guy….. and maybe he will be a very good player either soon or eventually. But I’m not sure trading for that guy and dropping him into the 4/5 spot in the line-up, as many are suggesting, is the best thing to or makes the Cub line-up much more competitive.
To be clear… I have no objection to trading for Rizzo (at the right cost, as always)… but I’m worried that too many are relying on him to “save” the offense. (Also to be clear, I’m not saying you’ve taken the “save” position… your post just provided a jumping off point.)
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I don't think anything
Fielder included, is going to save this offense.
If we aren’t going after Fielder, we need to go after something for first base. If I’m choosing between some of the retreads available in free agency or sending something to SD for Rizzo, I’d take option B, because he’s at least a potential long term option on a team that currently has none.
Good points.
Putting Rizzo fourth is a big gamble. But he might be the best bet.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I agree...
…as it stands right now, the Houston Astros aren’t that much of a sure thing to finish last in this division. 2012 is expected to be a “lost” year…and by looking at where this team is right now, that’s an understatement. The good news is, it’ll be quick and painless…the bad news is, it’s gonna be a long summer…again.
Happy Holidays to all BCBers...be safe.
Maybe.
I’m not exactly in the crazy-optimist wing of BCB, but I don’t think the lineup posted will be the lineup we’ll have April 5.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I think anyone thinking this will be the opening day lineup is crazy.
Just realizing the hole isn’t necessarily just 1st base, it’s 1st base and the 3-hole. Fielder fills that. I don’t want to overpay too much, but I don’t mind spending for him.
I wouldn't call anybody crazy if they thought this was going to be our lineup.
I just think they’re wrong.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
You still have visions of Prince, el?
Boras was quoted as saying…“if anyone thinks Fielder will sign a short year deal for a lot more per year, they’re delusional”. He wants Pujols coin…for about as long. Crazy, in my opinion, but, not sure I wouldn’t give him 8 years. It’s a tough call.
Happy Holidays to all BCBers...be safe.
Short answer: Yes.
There’s just a lot of questions that are hard to answer:
1) Does Boras consider a 6-year deal ‘short term’?
2) Are the Nationals really interested in Prince?
3) Would Prince want to play in baseball Siberia (Seattle)?
4) How much does he want to stay in the NL?
5) How much does playing in Chicago matter to Prince?
6) Would TheoJed rather spend on Prince or trade prospects for Rizzo?
7) And, probably most importantly, do TheoJed figure that the dollars/prospects they will keep by not going with Fielder/Rizzo be worth trotting out a product that might seriously bring down fan interest?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Prepare to be disappointed
The overall line of thinking that you’re displaying in your post is what got the Cubs into both the financial mess that they’ve been in the last few years as well as what resulted in the Cubs landing guys like Jeromy Burnitz, Jacque Jones and other name free agents who weren’t that good.
The Cubs are not going to be good next year, and if you want them to field a line-up that you feel is worthy of a major market club, they are going to continue in the same rut that the Jim Hendry regime left the Cubs in. This team is rebuilding. Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer aren’t going to run out and get shiny toys to placate Cub fans. They are looking long term and that may mean having a disgusting line-up for the next year or so, but the idea is to come out on the other end a stronger organization and a consistent winner.
And we have to hope ...
that there’s a move or two that can still be made will help the Cubs long term while avoiding the type of lineup listed above. But … even if those moves aren’t there, this is probably what needs to happen.
Thanks, Jim!
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Yup...
… Theo talked about parallel objectives. Thats fine… if he believes that they can do things in the short term while focusing on the long term, so be it. I just know that this was one of the things that damned the Cubs after bringing in Andy MacPhail. He felt that the team needed an overhaul, but then they were a bit more competitive off the bat and the front office fell into the trap of thinking that things weren’t as bad as they really were.
The bottom line, IMO, is that they need long term thinking and vision, and they cannot allow anything to distract them from it. We’ve seen too many band-aid signings and a fantasy league concept regarding acquisitions. The result is excitement driving ticket sales, a run at the wild card/division, and even a playoff appearance, followed by a return to mediocrity. I am very happy to see that there is a departure from the thinking of the past and am willing to accept a year or two of crap in order to break out of that cycle.
Yes, how dare Theo not snap his fingers and magically overcome two years of mismanagement.
Theo should have magically convinced the other teams to give him all their best players. He sucks.
Oh, yes…. blah, blah, blah big market team, piss, moan.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
Two Years?
Just because the last two years were miserable doesn’t mean that the management of Hendry before that were great. Hendry mortgaged two playoff teams on the forseeable future and did little in terms of organizational development for most of his tenure. Theo is overcoming many many years of mismanagement and lack of organizational modernization.
You might want to differentiate KWood from TWood
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
Why hasn't Kerry Wood been resigned yet?
I wonder if he’ll just end up retiring if the Cubs go for the full rebuild?
From what was said on CTL a couple days ago...
…Wood is/was expecting to be paid quite a bit more as a set-up guy, after giving the Cubs such a bargain on him last year…whatever that means. $2M a year tops is about all he’s worth. Stand firm, Hoy-Stein!
Wood was on CTL a couple weeks ago with his wife and Kap asked him what his chances were to re-sign with the Cubs…Wood said…and I quote…“As sure as a 2 foot putt”. Now, Johnny Miller had to retire from the PGA tour at a rather young age, because he got what is called “a case of the yipps” on 2 foot putts and couldn’t make them….just sayin’. : )
Happy Holidays to all BCBers...be safe.
How do you know Wood wants "quite a bit more" and how do you define that?
My guess? Wood wants about $3 million. On a 1-year deal, given the money that is off the books, that’s a no-brainer — despite your stance against former Cubs, Ed.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I'm goin' by what the "talkin' heads" were saying on CTL...
…and it seems a 1 year deal is NOT what he’s looking for. I think Hoy-Stein pass…but, as you say…that’s just me hoping, I guess.
Happy New Year to all BCBers...be safe.
That's just your wishful thinking, Ed.
He does appear to want more money, but not necessarily more years.
$3 million seems quite reasonable, and I think TheoJed do it.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Not for $3M they won't.
That would be absurd. However, if they did sign him for $3M, then I’m thinking Hoy-Stein will want the option to trade him at the deadline…if he’s not disabled AND if there’s interest from someone.
Happy New Year to all BCBers...be safe.
$3 million would not be absurd at all
Your prejudices are blinding you.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
by elgato on Dec 31, 2011 7:35 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What he did last year merits a 100% raise?
I think not. It was his choice to sign for $1.5M…and he pretty much pitched his worth. I’d be totally surprised if Hoyer signs him for anything more than the same…unless they flip him at the deadline. The team is obviously going a different way. He and Zambrano are all that’s left of the ’03 fiasco. They BOTH need to take the train. New culture…out with the old.
Happy New Year to all BCBers...be safe.
Once again, you are letting your prejudices blind you.
Further, once Wood is signed (and I am 99.9% sure he will be), he won’t be traded — anywhere.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
You didn't answer the question, Al...
…Wood deserves a 100% raise for how he pitched last year? Or because he’s a “nice guy”?
I think this “I want to pitch for the Cubs for the rest of my career no matter what they pay me” BS, is going to be exposed. We’ll agree to disagree on one Kerry Wood…It’s giving my breakfast a foul taste.
Changing the subject…I was just reading this about Pujols’ contract…WOW!!!!!!!!!
http://angels.ocregister.com/2011/12/29/pujols-contract-details-30m-per-year-near-the-end/114952/
Happy New Year to all BCBers...be safe.
Agree to disagree on Wood, sure.
Unless the Angels win a World Series or two in the first four or five years of the Pujols deal, Angels fans are going to be pretty restless about him when he’s 37 or 38 and getting paid that much in his decline years.
If he had stayed with the Cardinals, their fans would have been more forgiving of that because they’ve already won two WS with him and got his best years.
Something he should have considered before leaving. It could get real ugly.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Wood
Took a contract last year that was well under market value because he wanted to move his family back to Chicago and he enjoyed being a Cub. He is the rare professional athlete who DIDN’T go to the highest bidder.
3 mil may be a 100% pay raise, but that is irrelevant. 3 mil is a appropriate for an above average relief pitcher.
If he had worked for a dollar last year, and wanted $50 this year, would you complain that he was getting a 5000% pay raise this year?
by tomas21 on Dec 31, 2011 10:03 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
Couldn't have said it better.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Nope, I would sign him for $50
for $3M, that is another story. Could the $3M be better spent is a fair question.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Fair question? Sure.
But is it ridiculous to think that Kerry should get $3 million? Not at all.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Wood get $3M? Possibly...
…but why from a team that’s in a total and absolute tear-down? That’s a waste.
Happy New Year to all BCBers...be safe.
your negative feeligns to Wood
remind me of Grinch and his love fest with Jake Fox, or Clutch and his Hoff love fest a while back
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
It is better to spend money like there's no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there's no money! - Irish toast.
On a rebuilding team? Maybe not.
Fans who think signing KWood is a no brainer are thinking more with their hearts and less with their heads. I am not saying there is no place for him on the 2012 Cubs as a veteran presence, but there may be better ways to spend the money it would take to sign him.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2011 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
well the fact
we aren’t going to spend a ton and we had alot coming off the books. give the guy 3 million and let him retire a cub. he’s got experience and he did better than some others. look at it this way. his discount last year plus possible over payment divided by 2 would be the same as if we gave him average for 2 years
Money is NOT the issue this season. Are you guys really complaining about money he would get? if we were strapped I would pass….he doesn’t have much left in the tank, but he’s a fan favorite.
he’s not like the Yankees with jeter. they are paying him based on heart rather than talent.
Mike Brown is the true definition of a businessman:
1.Build bare essentials to run business(PB Stadium)-✔
2.Hire cheap players-✔
3.When you suck don't give in to anyone's demands-✔
4. Change is a bad thing-✔
by RIP Slim on Dec 31, 2011 2:39 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
and to clarify
he’s asking for a few mil. jeter is wayyyyyy overpayed for his talent output
Mike Brown is the true definition of a businessman:
1.Build bare essentials to run business(PB Stadium)-✔
2.Hire cheap players-✔
3.When you suck don't give in to anyone's demands-✔
4. Change is a bad thing-✔
by RIP Slim on Dec 31, 2011 2:41 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Huh?
he’s not like the Yankees with jeter. they are paying him based on heart rather than talent.
I’m thinkin’ with 3000 hits and 5 rings, Jeter’s earned his keep.
Happy New Year to all BCBers...be safe.
given what he has done
is it worth it to keep a declining player with his high salary because of what he has done, not what can do?
I guess what I’m saying is there are much better players that can play his position better but they won’t replace him because of what you just mentioned
Mike Brown is the true definition of a businessman:
1.Build bare essentials to run business(PB Stadium)-✔
2.Hire cheap players-✔
3.When you suck don't give in to anyone's demands-✔
4. Change is a bad thing-✔
by RIP Slim on Dec 31, 2011 5:07 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
hell the best SS on the Yankees
is playing 3B right now
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
Exactly correct
With a lineup that is going to be bottom of the NL, a rotation that will likely be below average or worse, the recent removal of a legitimate LH setup man and a closer that is on thin ice….there is no need for an above average RP no matter how good of a guy Kerry Wood might be. He is not part of the resurrection of this franchise….but then again, that resurrection is years off anyway.
Turn it green for what? Comparing $3M to $50?
Who’s he calling above average? He’s got a flat fastball and a china doll body. I believe Hoyer sees that, too.
Happy New Year to all BCBers...be safe.
It's amazing all these people who want to tear everything down and start over,
those who want to get rid of Garza and don’t bother signing Fielder, that many are hot to trot to bring back Wood.
If you’re going to nuke it all and start over, Wood has no place on this team. Myself, I would keep him, but I’m not advocating going nuclear, either.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 31, 2011 4:21 PM CST up reply actions
I wonder...if BCB woulda been around back in 1973...
…if it woulda spontaneous combusted during that 1 year stretch when Fergie, Billy and Ronnie were given their walking papers?
Happy New Year to all BCBers...be safe.
Probably not
… because it was pretty clear that the era of those guys was over.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Am I one of those
who you think are “hot to trot” to trade Garza and ignore Fielder? Because I think they should sign Fielder, I just think they won’t. And if they don’t, they should definitely trade Garza because they aren’t going to be good anytime soon.
As for Wood, you can’t just ignore good values because your team isn’t likely to compete. If you have a guy who is a loyal player, an effective player, and isn’t asking for a ton of money, I don’t understand why you wouldn’t sign him, regardless of your expected record. Wood is, to me, a special case. He is a unique individual who would turn down more money out of loyalty to and love for an organization. I think that when that rare individual comes along, you set aside the spreadsheet and get the guy signed.
Good for him, but
I think this shows how some Cubs fans are more sentimentalists than anything.
If you really believe in a total rebuild, Wood has no role in it whatsoever.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 31, 2011 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
Serious question
Do you read what people write, or do you just stop after the first sentence and make generalizations?
What the hell are you talking about?
I presented my opinion. You don’t have to like it, but if you’re looking to do a total rebuild, you can’t have room for sentimentality.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 31, 2011 9:49 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If Wood is re-signed, it won't be for sentimental reasons.
It will be because they think he’s the best option.
DUMP GARZA
And because the 8th inning is extremely important
On a 50 win team.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
So should we even field a full roster??
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
We can fill that spot with a dude for 400K
I doubt they just leave that spot empty as a tribute to KW.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
And again,
I’d probably keep him, because I don’t believe in a total rebuild.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 31, 2011 6:54 PM CST up reply actions
How will KW's salary effect
The Tom Ricketts dream of a 70 million dollar payroll?
I can see Tom forcing KW to backload and defer that puppy into 2020.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
$70M payroll???
you need a dose of reality. If it got that low, that would be a very temporary thing.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 4, 2012 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
well said and rec'd
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
It is better to spend money like there's no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there's no money! - Irish toast.
2012 will be a rough year
since there is very little talent at the major league level. But if the players we do have play smart, fundamental baseball every day, and hustle all of the time, it will be a much more enjoyable team to watch than that god-awful, lazy, stupid team that was out there last year.
"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester
by Jose's Eyelid on Dec 30, 2011 2:43 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
It's far too premature to say this will be our opening day lineup.
Anybody with half a brain realizes that. However it will still be a rough year but one that will have light at the end of the tunnel, unlike last year. Give it time people (some of you here at least), it will get better. One step at a time. This organization was a complete mess when taken over, patience.
In Theo and Jed I trust.
You all are missing the point.
CubFan Niner-Oh has made a huge mistake here. You don’t bunch lefties together. Instead the line up should look like:
Castro / DeJesus / Byrd / LaHair / Soriano / Stewart / Soto / Barney
Here’s whats gonna happen folks.
Castro has another 200 + hits. The first time he slouches at SS, Sveum puts him in a choke hold. Problem solved, add one gold glove.
DeJesus has an incredible bounce back year. Wrigleyville starts to sell “The Jesus” t-shirts before June.
Byrd adds a lense to that funky side of his post-trauma helmet. Add a “Byrd’s-eye” t-shirt to the rack. Hitting 404 before the trade deadline.
LaHair platoons more with Baker than Stewart does. OPS .850 with 33HR and 101 RBI. Mysteriously, no t-shirts… hmm.
Soriano finally realizes that 40oz on his bat doesn’t mean what he thought it did. Reverts to a normal stick and has a career best in HR and RBI.
Soto hasn’t even looked at carne asada since Thanksgiving. Shows-up at a mean, lean 180lbs after two tours of P90X with only a break at Xmas. Returns to the ASG. Likely moves up in the line up after logging better OPS than almost everyone else.
Barney. He loves you, we love him. Good sophomore effort in 2012.
Ok, ok. Maybe not ALL of this happens. But I wanted to counter all of these noose-tying comments I’ve enjoyed so far.
Its not the Sveum ol' song.
by Tat14 on Dec 30, 2011 5:14 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Cashmere?
I don’t want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it.
by cub in louies nest on Dec 30, 2011 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
thats
cashner cashmere
Mike Brown is the true definition of a businessman:
1.Build bare essentials to run business(PB Stadium)-✔
2.Hire cheap players-✔
3.When you suck don't give in to anyone's demands-✔
4. Change is a bad thing-✔
by RIP Slim on Dec 31, 2011 2:42 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
A team like that is going to break so many records
In all the wrong fields.
i am not a cub fan
but i strongly dislike St Louis am i welcome here
okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider Stay humble in victory respect all fear none and finish larry soprano
by j-man on Dec 30, 2011 10:29 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
my cousin Matthew is in your same/similar situation
Def welcome -
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
i dislike the
Cards because i am 4 h 30 min away from St Louis and everyone here is a Cards fan and its drives me nuts
okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider Stay humble in victory respect all fear none and finish larry soprano
as long as you pay me the mandatory non-cubs fan $500 fee
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Dec 30, 2011 11:00 PM CST up reply actions
in BCB tokens
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
It is better to spend money like there's no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there's no money! - Irish toast.
I would be shocked if
Theo/Jed go into the season with LaHair at 1st. I am sure there are plenty of cards left in the deck to play. Maybe by Jan. 20 the roster may be set for spring training.
---
i am not a cub fan
but i strongly dislike St Louis am i welcome here
Yes – but what’s your point??
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
A Fielder signing serves one big purpose:
He puts fans in the seats. Right now we are the south end of a north bound mule when it comes to excitement about spending hundreds of dollars to attend ONE home game to see the Cubs. Fielder saves attendance. This is an important signing financially for the cubs in a rebuilding season. When calm heads step back and look at the future financial health of the Cubs, Fielder is indispensable.
We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 is going into the Hall of Fame!!
by mrcubsfan on Dec 31, 2011 9:27 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Fielder is more than just a draw
He is a centerpiece to a rebuilt offense and a contending which would put even more butts in seats.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 31, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Couldn't agree with you more
on this one.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 31, 2011 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
fielder is also
The centerpiece to a nonexistent offense. He or one of the Cuban players will either be a blessing or a curse. The only thing that can be agreed upon is that Cubs fans are terribly impatient and are growing weary of nothing happening. I fear that in this rebuilding year we won’t contend at all and be nothing more than a AAA ball club. I’m sorry but my expectations are terribly low if that. I’ll refrain anymore comments until the season starts
by ChicagoBlues1983 on Dec 31, 2011 10:51 AM CST via iPhone app reply actions
There has to be some changes coming soon
After looking at the lineups and the list of regular position players, the big question is LaHair. I think the rest will probably start the season.
On the list of bench players, Johnson is the only one I’ve written-in.
The rotation list has 5 pitchers, but what happens if Garza is traded? What happens if T. Wood can’t stay in games. They should sign another starting pitcher even if Garza isn’t traded.
A big part of the bullpen strength is Cashner and Samardzija. Give one of them a job starting or take one out for some other reason, then the bullpen is sapped.
There has to be changes yet to come. January should be a very interesting month!
In fairness to the current Cubs roster (outside of 2008), we’ve never been terribly skilled at putting runs on the board. Last year was awful for many reasons and the offense was certainly a big factor in the Cubs lack of success. But let’s not forget how poor the starters performed. I’m a little more interested in seeing if the rotation can stay off the DL and out of the looney bin. And to be quite frank the offense might realistically be one player/hitter away from being a completely different team. Let’s also factor in a change of culture. For as long as I’ve know the Cubs have played for the 3 run homer. Maybe getting more cerebral guys on the field will help us score some more runs because when the wind is blowing in no one is hitting it out of the park. Just a thought…
I'd be ok with
starting LaHair in left field for awhile if they could move Soriano, and they get a real first baseman. But If LaHair is the starting first baseman then they aren’t even trying to appear like the team is competitive, and there is no way I would spend money to watch them play.
This Line Up should make the NL wet their pants...
From laughing at it:
Order: (optional order)
1.DeJesus (1. DeJesus)
2.Castro (2. Barney)
3.Byrd (3. Castro)
4.Stewart (4. LaHair)
5.LaHair (5. Stewart)
6.Soriano (6. Soriano)
7.Soto (7. Byrd)
8. Barney (8. Soto)
The. Cubs pitchers better have an ERA under 2.00 to allow this team to win any games.
(BTW: Even fielder couldnt make this line up productive)
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Dec 31, 2011 6:26 PM CST reply actions
So what?
Does that mean you shouldn’t try to get one of the top bats of this era? Particularly if he’s young and will fit into whatever mythical window of contention you might have?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 31, 2011 6:51 PM CST up reply actions
where do we stand?
tied for first at 0-0 with 162 games to go. our magic number is 163
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
IT'S HAPPENING!
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Dec 31, 2011 9:56 PM CST up reply actions
add Rizzo to the 1B mix
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
Cubs By The Numbers
Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.
Click here to order your copy, available now!
Recent Stories in Chicago Cubs Game Threads
Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
