Tigers join Garza chase
I don't think there is anything earth-shattering in the report, though it is interesting to see what hangups the various teams have in making a deal.
Mostly I posted this so there would be a new spot for Garza discussions.
5 months ago
tomas21
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Tooo funny!
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
They implied
that the As wanted both Turner and Castellanos for Gio, and that’s why they didn’t get him. Presumably the package for Garza would be slight less than for Gio, so Turner plus Gonzlaez seems unlikely.
Turner is pretty darn good though. If we could get Turner and another couple solid prospects, that’d be ok by me.
Why? Graza is better than Gio.
And has success against the yanks and sox.
by BrewCrew'sPrinceofDarkness on Dec 31, 2011 2:07 AM CST up reply actions
Gonzalez has more years of control...
even if you think Garza is better than Gonzalez right now, those extra years make him much more valuable.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 31, 2011 4:35 AM CST up reply actions
Gio may have
More years under control but there were teams that were concerned about Gio’s walk rate. If the Tigers were one of those team that would explain why they wouldn’t make that trade
If they didn't like his walk
rate they probably wouldn’t have been in deep discussions to trade for him. It sounds like they balked at the asking price.
I wonder if they didn't
like his walk rate for the asking price
They're really about the same, talent-wise.
And in no way should a player with 2 years left of team control command as much as one with 4 years left when they are as close as these two are in talent.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 31, 2011 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
I believe Garza to be decidedly better, talent-wise, so to me the question is...
…what is the window of opportunity for the acquiring team? If it’s in the next two years, I go Garza. If I’m thinking more long term, I’d probably give up more for Gio and hope he becomes better than Garza.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Why is Garza decidely better?
BB rate?
Career ERA, FIP, and xFIP are very similar. Gonzalez has a much better GB%, a better K rate, gives up slightly less HR, and is 2 years younger.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 31, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
Intangibles mostly, hence the phrase "I believe"
Garza’s been battle-tested against the AL East, and more than held his own at Wrigley with a not-so-good defense behind him. Simply put, at this stage in their respective careers, if I had to win a big game, I’d rather have Garza on the mound than Gio.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
That doesn't mean he's better.
That just sounds like you like him better, which is fair enough.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 31, 2011 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
That works both ways you know.
Sounds like you want to pull out a specific stat (or two or three) and then use that to say one player is “better” than the other. While that may be true for that particular stat (or two or three), it doesn’t necessarily hold up as being true for the overall performance of that player.
IOW, it sounds like you like Gio better because he has a much better GB%, a better K rate, gives up slightly less HR, and is 2 years younger, which is fair enough. Doesn’t mean he’s better though.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well, it doesn't make him better, you're right.
But it’s better evidence than intangibles. I’m not just cherrypicking a few stats here and there, either.
I cited those few stats as being better, and I also citing that the overall performance stats ERA, FIP, and xFIP were really close.
I never said Gonzalez was a better pitcher. I said they’re about the same, talent-wise. I actually like Garza better, as a Rays fan, but saying he’s decidedly better than Gonzalez is a very tough sell.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 31, 2011 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
I think you're missing the point.
I’ll repeat what I said earlier – I believe Garza to be decidedly better, talent-wise. That’s just my own personal belief. I don’t have to “sell” it to anyone and you certainly don’t have to share in my belief.
Oh, and in terms of evidence…
Unless you include an “IMO” in there, what you’re providing is not better evidence than intangibles – it’s different evidence. Unless you’re referring to a specific stat or a distinct, measurable entity, “better” is a very subjective term.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
No, it's physical evidence, not better evidence.
It is there for everyone to see, unlike your intangibles. And I have not yet said Gonzalez is better.
Man, I am really not trying to be a dick about this, honestly.
Why is everyone obsessed with Felix?
I would not give up the killer B’s or Montero for this guy! Why the heck is everyone obsessed with him?
by JBBY on Dec 31, 2011 2:08 PM CST
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 31, 2011 8:36 PM CST up reply actions
What's there to be a dick about?
physical evidence, i.e. “stats” is different than intangibles. No argument there. I believe this is what I’ve been saying.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
There have been overreactions to previous posts of mine on this blog.
Why is everyone obsessed with Felix?
I would not give up the killer B’s or Montero for this guy! Why the heck is everyone obsessed with him?
by JBBY on Dec 31, 2011 2:08 PM CST
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 31, 2011 9:05 PM CST up reply actions
to which, IMO, you then overreacted in turn, thus giving the thread life.
was that your intent?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Please don't drag this thread down like others did to the that one.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Jan 1, 2012 6:46 PM CST up reply actions
takes two to drag down
(hint – this is a test. this is only a test…)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
My 6th grade grammar
teacher would be rolling in her grave right now.
Congratulations - you passed.
Now go forth, and sin no more…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
You also have to take into consideration the ballpark Gio has been pitching in
compared to Garza. Big difference.
The Trop is also a pitcher's park.
Why is everyone obsessed with Felix?
I would not give up the killer B’s or Montero for this guy! Why the heck is everyone obsessed with him?
by JBBY on Dec 31, 2011 2:08 PM CST
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 31, 2011 11:45 PM CST up reply actions
Wrigley is not so much...
But Gio’s walk rate is going to give him serious trouble in the NL East.
FWIW, Wrigley was a pitcher's park this year.
23rd in park factor in 2011… though that is a pretty big outlier from how Wrigley normally plays.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Oakland is very pitcher friendly, but so is Wrigley much of the time
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 1, 2012 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
Why would his BB rate give him more trouble in the NL East than in the AL West?
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Jan 1, 2012 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
He'll also have a pitcher in the batter's box.
I’ve never really heard of a park helping to negate poor walk rates. Are there any articles that discuss this phenomenon?
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Jan 1, 2012 6:48 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously?
I’ve literally never heard that, ever. I was wondering if it was real or something he just thought made sense.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Jan 1, 2012 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
it's his MO
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 2, 2012 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
And like I said, I need to see it repeated a couple times
before I’m convinced he’s a totally different pitcher.
Keep in mind the league, division, and competition level change, also, though. If we’re going to mention park, we should mention some other things as well.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
Herreshoff.info -- The most awesome website since the invention of the internet.
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Jan 1, 2012 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
I'd have to see it repeated a couple times before Garza gets his entire AL career erased.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 31, 2011 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
to few hashtags
#DUMP#GARZA
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
It is better to spend money like there's no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there's no money! - Irish toast.
#NBFAPPROVES
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 30, 2011 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
#PEEKABOO
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
It is better to spend money like there's no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there's no money! - Irish toast.
#ISEEU
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Dec 31, 2011 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
Yawn....
more of the same, I wish I could get paid to post obvious information, whatever happened to real sports reporting… anyway I think teams are going to start to figure out that its going to take a haul to get Garza, its a win win for the Cubs, either hold on to a very good pitcher or get a nice haul of talent in return, theo/jed will need to be blown away to deal Garza
You can be whatever you want to be, just put your mind to it and work hard! -Dad
What do you do for a livin??
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
Tigers have always shown the willingness to give up prospects
I think if they want him they get him. Turner will be in deal for sure.
More than what?
If you mean Turner and Castellanos, you won’t get better and as the article says, that is highly unlikely. If the Cubs could get that, I’d take it.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
I had a dream last night
The Cubs traded Garza to the Blue Jays for four players. Two were young pitchers, one of whom was major league ready and the other was a couple years away with high upside. The third was a minor league position player, and the fourth, inexplicably, was Joey Gathright. What can this dream possibly mean?
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Dec 31, 2011 9:09 AM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Alcohol in
your egg nog
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Gathright sent to Boston in compensation for Epstein, right?
A friend once told me: "I don't buy the idea that a team learns anything from a loss, the only thing they learn is how to lose games."---Knight
I think this is it.
Didn’t I read a tweet that the Red Sox are in the market for a guy who can jump over a car?
Harry Caray: Marshall is going back to LA to get cocaine for his injured foot.
Steve Stone: Harry, that’s Novocaine.
by Julio Zuleta's Voodoo on Dec 31, 2011 10:18 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Sawks want the car instead
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Ken Rosenthal reporting Marlins are in on Garza talks
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
My inner ballhawk says "Stanton! Stanton! Stanton!"
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
but what if we convert Ozzie to pitcher
think that might produce more for you?
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
My issue
with the marlins is they don’t have the young pitching that the Cubs supposely want. If they trade him there theey had better have other trades lined up with some of the players they would be getting in order to get that young pitching
So, who matches up best with top pitching prospects?
Blue Jays, Yanks, or Tigers?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Jays
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
We really need to end up with 2 future starters in our rotation for Garza
Otherwise, I think it defeats the purpose of dealing him. So, we’ll see how this all pans out.
With the guys we have have under control, we’re lacking big time to put together a competitive rotation for 2013. Dempster and Z will be free agents and may even be traded sooner.
That leaves us with Garza, Travis Wood, and Cashner as our best three starting candidates. OMG! We’re in serious need of pitching here. We’ll be praying that a farmhand like McNutt is good enough to start, and that Wells doesn’t stink. And perhaps a miracle happens for Hayden Simpson.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
But with
all the $ coming off the books after the year they Cubs are going to have a chance to land a big time starter. Can they I don’t know but they have the financial means with the $ off the books to do it
the question that comes to mind is ....
with even more money coming off the books after 2012 , if push comes to shove and theo has to overbid to get an ace next year , will he overpay ? or are we going to watch the next carlos beltran walk on by ?
my magic 8 ball says "who the hell knows"
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Dec 31, 2011 6:26 PM CST up reply actions
Hmmm
Matt Cain, Zack Grienke, Shaun Marcum and Cole Hamels all will be outright free agents if they don’t sign extensions. But, would you call any of those guys a true ace?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Cain is right now.
I definitely can see Hamels becoming one. Marcum, probably not. Strong 2 though.
Grienke has the stuff to be an ace, just as long as he doesn’t have to be the “face” of the rotation. And by that I take you back to the glory days of Wood and Prior. I still think Prior had better stuff, but Wood was definitely the leader of the rotation. And I’m guessing Prior was just fine with that.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well, if we deal Garza to acquire younger impact pitching
and then sign Cain next off-season, as opposed to extending Garza, we will have come out ahead in the process. Cain is the youngest of that group.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
It's going to be very interesting to see what the Giants do with their rotation, off-the-field, in the next few years.
Who they extend, who they trade (already traded Sanchez), who they don’t sign, etc.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The Giants and Lincecum are negotiating an extension now
and are far apart. The Giants have some real tough business decisions to make this year.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 1, 2012 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
I'd really prefer to sign Cain out of that group of FAs. He's the youngest
And he’s also closer to being an ace. So, hopefully he decided to test FA. With that many options hitting the market, the Cubs will be in good buying position.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Lincecum is not an ace?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 1, 2012 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
Shoulda dealt
DLee for him on April Fools Day back when.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
i could see two signings and one solid top of the rotation
yes this is an IF not a WHEN
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
My guess is that Theo Inc
have a number in mind for pretty much everyone. He’ll be fine if he stays at or below that number. Overly agressive shoppers will max out their credit cards and be in trouble in rapid order.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Reports state that
The Tigers are will to part with Jacob Turner in a trade for the right pitcher.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
and how much more?
Turner for Garza wouldn’t get Theo Inc to flinch.
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Theo is gaining leverage
Tigers wouldn’t budge on the A’s request for Turner and Nick Castellanos or Drew Smyly. So, they watched Gio Gonzoalez go to the Nats. Now, all the contenders are competing for the last good arm on the trade market. Somebody is going to overpay.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
The A's wanted
Turner, Castellanos and Smyly. Had they wanted just 2 and others maybe Gio goes there but oakland wanted all 3 in the deal
Turner & Smyly
Sounds good to me..
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
i know nothing about then
can you shed some light please?
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
turner is a 20 y/o rh pitcher who was a top 30 prospect before the season and pitched in detroit this year
and smyly is a 22 y/o RH pitcher who dominated high a and AA this year
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Dec 31, 2011 9:12 PM CST up reply actions
Just looking solely at his stats
As I was curious as well about smyly at least. He seems very promising by two stats that really stood out. In 126+ innings between A+ and AA he only gave up two homeruns, one in each league. And that his whip lowered from 1.145 to 1.029 and his K/9 increased from 8.6 to 10.4 when he was promoted. Though he did have about 80 innings in A+ compared to 45 in AA.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
Turner
has a heavy 94 mph fastball and a hammer curve. His changeup is solid. He’s got good control. He’s a potential #2 starter. He needs more experience, but I think the guy is going to be an all-star.
Smyly is older and doesn’t have the same kind of upside, but he’s left-handed and has a nice cutter that he can use to get out right-handers. He could be a #3 starter but at worst should be a back-of-the-rotation guy.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 31, 2011 9:27 PM CST up reply actions
sounds like a done deal to me
if the Tigers offer it
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
I have been among those against trading Garza.
But if the Cubs could get Turner and another top prospect, I’m on board. Turner could move into the Cubs rotation right away; I think he’s that good.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I'd rather he not..
I think he got rushed a little too soon and would prefer him get some more experience in AAA first. But sometime in 2012 for sure.
Be interesting
to see what the Tigers would give up.
I just hope the Cubs don’t end up doing what the Twins ended up doing with Johan Santana.
Yeah... that didn't work out too well.
We need a Bartolo Colon-like trade. Cross your fingers.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
and then Garza to go out and win a Cy Young so teams will be eager to deal with TheoJed again.
Fine by me if we get a Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, and Brandon Phillips in return.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
But that's only one pitcher
Can’t do that.
s/
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
Perhaps we should sign Edwin Jackson?
Adds depth to the rotation while at the same time inflating Garza’s trade value by further reducing available SP options. We might even decide to keep Garza and have a decent rotation top-to-bottom..
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
no
jackson is an overrated, expensive, and consistently inconsistent pitcher. let someone else waste their money on him
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Dec 31, 2011 7:51 PM CST up reply actions
Average his last 3 years
He’s pretty darn solid. I think the Cubs would gladly take 12 wins, 200 IP, and 3.96 ERA from the 3rd/4th spot in the rotation. Seems like he’s been around forever but he’s only 28 yrs old and shown himself to be durable.
I'm wet nurse to a last-place, dead-to-the-neck-up ball club, and I'm choking to death!
I hope the Cubs get
Atleast more than the Cahill deal
I want Jacob Turner
That is all. If we’re going to deal Garza, I want him to go to Detroit for Turner. They can throw in something else too.
I agree
he seems about as close to a sure thing number 2 as we are going to find. If we can get him and Smyly or Castellanos or whatever, that sounds good to me.
Probably not Castellanos
I’d love him, but I doubt that Detroit would give up both of them for Garza.
I wouldn’t even have to have Smyly if we got Turner. There are some other players I would consider. It would have to be at least a decent prospect though in addition to Turner for Garza.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 31, 2011 9:57 PM CST up reply actions
Is there someone else
the Cubs could send to Detroit to lure them into sending two of those guys (and another piece or two) or even all three?
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I assume
you mean “Other than Starlin Castro.”
Maybe Brett Jackson. But other than that, I’m drawing a blank.
I was thinking more of a major league piece
but yes, not Starlin.
I’m not trying to build/propose a BCB fantasy trade… but I didn’t know if the Tigers might have a need/use for guys like Byrd, Barney, Soto, any bench guy, Shark, et al. (really anyone but Starlin) to fortify their major league roster.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Didn't figure so... but always worth exploring.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
What if we took Inge off their hands...
Traded them Baker to play 3B for them? That gets them out of a bad contract and get’s them a respectable 3B (compared to Inge).
I don't think
Jeff Baker would ease the sting of losing Castellanos.
Well the benefit is getting rid of Inge and that salary and getting a more valuable player at a fraction of the cost PLUS Garza.
I still don’t think it would work, but I’m just trying to think outside the box. And it wouldn’t need to be Castellanos, that could be for Smyly, etc.
How does that trade scenario hlep us????
I could care less about helping the Tigers get better…I care more about getting the best talent possible for the Chicago Cubs!
Getting junk in return (Inge) doesn’t help us one bit.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jan 2, 2012 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
Because it gets you a package of
Turner, Castellanos, Smyly, and Inge for Garza and Baker instead of just Turner and Smyly for Garza, for example.
It’s worth losing Baker and eating a bad contract for a player like Castellanos.
Doubt it is an option, but
that would be good deal
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 2, 2012 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
Josh
out of all the names that have come out and been mentioned I agree with you turner seems like the safest/ best prospect being thrown out there
If Turner is such a hot prospect...
then why don’t the Tigers just keep him and stick him in their rotation next year? They get their young stud for 5 cost-controlled years.
He put up good numbers in the minors, but got rocked a little in his call-up last season. I just don’t feel Turner is a sure-fire TOR pitcher now and may not be in the future.
If we trade Garza, we HAVE TO GET IT RIGHT, by getting a boatload of talent back, IMO.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Dec 31, 2011 8:20 PM CST up reply actions
We have to get it right... that's for sure.
But in order to get better sooner, rather than later… we have to take that risk and deal him in hopes that 1 very good pitcher turns into another very good pitcher plus other impact players at the major league level.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Small sample size.
I’m not terribly worried that the 20 year old Turner struggled in 12.2 innings last September. He’s been a top 30 prospect over the last couple years and is very highly regarded guy in prospect circles. I don’t see many other prospects we could get back for Garza with Turner’s mix of ability and readiness for the bigs. Of course we need another strong pitching prospect back, and Smyly would definitely peak my interest if added to Turner.
Because Turner's not ready next year
He needs more experience and they’d be getting a solid #2 pitcher who can lead them to a pennant.
As far as getting rocked last year, he had three starts—one solid and two bad. Hardly a big sample size. Besides, he wasn’t ready.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 31, 2011 9:31 PM CST up reply actions
Top end talent is more important than a boatload.
You never know for sure but Turner is probably the surest thing of the recent players named. More sure than the Toronto guys. He isn’t likely an ace but could be a solid #2. Turner plus a couple others is probably a fair deal for Garza.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
If I'm TheoJed, I don't want a "fair" deal for Garza. I want somebody to overpay.
Otherwise, I’m going to lock him up with an extension. Garza already is a solid #2 and could become a #1. If you’re saying Turner isn’t likely an ace but could be a solid #2, how is that better than I already have?
If I don’t come out of this with somebody who I feel strongly could be a #1 in a few years, plus a few others to sweeten the pot, dealing Garza doesn’t make sense.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Because we'd have six years of Turner
over just two years of Garza.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 1, 2012 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
but what if you extend Garza like I said?
would you rather have five/six years of Garza or six years of Turner?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Turner costs
60 mil less, and might be as effective as Garza by next year. Plus I would imagine the other piece or two we’d get from Detroit would be significant.
I'm a huge fan of Turner
So I guess I want Turner when you figure in his salary and age. I’m also assuming we get a secondary piece like Smyly or Oliver in addition to Turner.
so what I'm hearing/reading is that there's a strong chance Turner can be as productive as Garza
and the secondary pieces (Smyly, Oliver, or whoever) represent gravy/icing/overpayment. Is that fair to say?
If so, then this makes more sense to me. I got the impression from earlier comments that Turner would not end up being as good as Garza.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I think that's fair
I do think Turner will end up being as good as Garza. Of course, nothing is assured. On the other hand, Garza could blow out his arm too, so there’s risk all around. Getting a secondary pitcher would serve to lessen that risk for the Cubs.
sounds like Turner + anything
is a hypothetical win for the Cubs
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
My thought as well.
I don’t see Garza as a true ace. Turner could become Garza so for Turner plus a couple of guys, I’d strongly look at the deal.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
Turner is described as a "Workhorse number 2 starter" by Sickels
I’d say that’s pretty similar to what we have in Garza, and this gives us 6 additional years and also additional pieces on top, supposedly.
The only way I’d take a package over Turner plus one of their left handers is if the Blue Jays go nuts and put together a package of quality AND quantity.
Only thing that concerns me is that
some folks don’t think he is quite ready yet (for next year).
Therefore, we would have to stick him in the minors to “develop” for another year, and that doesn’t really help us at the Major league level for this year.
We lose Garza, then our rotation will really be sketchy next year.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jan 1, 2012 7:43 PM CST up reply actions
He may start at AAA, but he should definitely spend a large chunk of time at the major league level.
And it’s not like the rotation is gonna be great even with Garza or that we’re likely to compete one way or the other.
I don't think
that Turner is going to be ready for next season, at least not in April. Maybe mid-season. He still needs a little work in the minors.
But that’s what Andy Sonnanstine or maybe Paul Maholm is for.
Even with Garza, we’re not going to compete for the playoffs next year.
That's what I think
as well. I think Turner is a better armt than any other name that I have heard associated with the Garza talks.
So what?
2012 is going to be bad Garza or not. If Turner needs a little more time (which he probably does) then let him spend some time in AAA. If you are looking for someone to step right in then you aren’t getting a top prospect. No one will trade a pitcher ready to step in as they would keep them versus trading for Garza.
Turner is the best pitcher I’ve heard in the Garza discussions. For example, I’d take him over the Yankee guys.
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
because the Tigers want to win now
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 1, 2012 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
take what you will from it
But it is believed multiple prospects, apart from Castellanos, are being offered as the Tigers talk with new Cubs general manager Theo Epstein.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20111231/SPORTS0104/112310403/1129/rss15
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Dec 31, 2011 11:20 PM CST reply actions
some day they will get it right
GM = Hoyer
Pres = Theo
unless we have had a shake up in the front office already
Q: Why did Theo Epstein cross the road?
A: To Dump Garza
Outside of Turner, Oliver and Smyly
I wonder what other prospects the Cubs are looking at then
I think those are the three
Might be interested in a young major leaguer like Porcello.
But it sounds like Jedstein want young pitching back.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 1, 2012 12:56 AM CST up reply actions
That's how mine would be as well.
I just feel that Smyly’s the much safer gamble by a pretty large margin too. Oliver has the walk issues, and Crosby the injury issues. Smyly’s upside might not be as far behind the others either especially with him having the best chance of fulfilling it.
I want him for name value...
Drew Smyly… think about it, if you haven’t already.
--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jan 1, 2012 4:15 AM CST up reply actions
i played against crosby in high school. talented, but he cant stay healthy
hes had a lot of arm problems already.
That's what I think
Crosby is likely just never going to be durable enough to be a dependable starter. He might be a good set-up man.
It would have been amazing to acquire both Turner and Castellanos
But let’s be honest that always a bit unrealistic. I’d gladly take a package of Turner, Smyly/Oliver/Crosby, Paulino, and Fields/Vasquez
Heard something today that intrigued me alot..
What do you guys think about receiving Porcello along with Jacob Turner and another prospect or two? I’ve heard the Cubs and Tigers are ironing out the details of this where Cubs would send Garza and a prospect for Turner, Porcello, and a prospect or two.
IMO, you'd have to do that deal.
Particularly if one of their young LHP is one of the other pieces.
Porcello is a young “proven” rotation member with more upside and whose peripherals have been better than his ERA indicates. Turner is the big prize. So if you’re then getting another piece(s) on top of that… you’ve got to pull the trigger (or go back to TOR, et al., and say “beat this”).
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
that'd be a hell of a haul
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Jan 1, 2012 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
You've heard?
From where, may I ask?
That sounds like a good deal to me.
agreed where is this coming from?
Id be ok with that deal depending who the.prospects r on both sides. Side note: anyone heard anything else bout a rizzo deal at all?
by MDavis on Jan 1, 2012 7:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
You could've just stopped at the "what do you think" part
adding in the “I heard they are ironing out” part makes you sound like you are lying. I doubt Theo is sharing his trade scenarios with teenagers.
Yeah me and Theo are best buds.
Seriously. No need to be a dick about it. Here’s where I saw it..http://detroit-news.info/detroit-top-stories/detroit-tigers-willing-to-part-with-jacob-turner.html. Detroit News so I doubt it’s straight up BS like you seem to believe I did.
He also said the Cubs were going to find a way to get Rizzo, but it would be easier to do after they moved Garza and a few more pieces. He basically thinks Byrnes is holding Rizzo in place for the Cubs.
it’s a conspiracy!
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Jan 1, 2012 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
Byrnes is most certainly not
holding Rizzo in place for the Cubs. If Tampa or Texas offers what he wants, Rizzo is gone.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Jan 1, 2012 10:58 PM CST up reply actions
let kaplan think he's smart
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Jan 1, 2012 11:05 PM CST up reply actions
I can list 25 people on this site that could do a better job
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
Not sure about Porcello.
He struggled at times last year, was consistently inconsistent, and could barely get thru 4 innings of a playoff game vs. Texas.
that scares me a little.
If you think you've seen it all...just wait!
by CubFanSince1970 on Jan 1, 2012 7:48 PM CST up reply actions
He just turned 24 and has spent three years in the big leagues.
I think there’s a lot to like.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
he's 23
not 24 until almost a year from now
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Jan 1, 2012 9:07 PM CST up reply actions
Whoops. Temporarily bad at math.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Porcello
was really heralded coming out of high school, but he’s never thrown as hard as a professional as he did in high school. That happens sometimes. Some pitchers plateau at 18.
Still, he’s likely to be a solid workhorse pitcher for several years. Nothing spectacular, but a decent #3 or #4.
by Josh Timmers on Jan 1, 2012 10:00 PM CST up reply actions
Would rather have
Smyly
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Jan 1, 2012 11:00 PM CST up reply actions
Probably
But I’d understand getting a major league pitcher like Porcello over him.
But I also think the Tigers would rather part with Smyly than Porcello. They’re going for it this season, not in 2014.
Agreed.
So if you grab he (3/4) and Turner (2)… and the two of them work out along with TWood (4/5?)… you’ve all of a sudden got three fifths of a pretty good, and young, rotation. Sign one of the “aces” next off-season… and there you go.
I’m fine with Smyly, too (among others), but one advantage I’d give to Porcello is he’s obviously major league ready now. So you get a quicker return on the investment and lower the “bust” chance.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Hmmm,
Porcello was really heralded coming out of high school, but he’s never thrown as hard as a professional as he did in high school. That happens sometimes. Some pitchers plateau at 18.
and some pitchers like my best friend plateaued at age 12 in Little League. Seriously, most throw a good deal harder than they did high school as their bodies mature.
BTW, where is your source for his alleged drop in velocity?
As for Porcello, the biggest worry is did he throw too much too soon in his career.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jan 2, 2012 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
Of note
Porcello’s name was thrown out as an example of a major leaguer who could come back by the Cubs den writer. He wasn’t reporting, he was givign an example he made up. Looking at the Tigers roster, they don’t really have a lot of big league players that they could spare and we would want. Porcello would be the most obvious fit, but that doesn’t mean he is being discussed.
I've seen it a couple of other places too though.
Still doesn’t mean it’s true, but I doubt Porcello hasn’t been discussed by Theo and Jed as they usually go down every path.
not a surprise
considering that there are new teams showing interest and some of the known teams aren’t thrilled with the asking price
not thrilled
with the asking price??we gave up 5 prospects to get this guy.and for 1 season and 10 wins. what a shame.who do you replace him with?all these junk signings the cubs are doing.i think we become the astros next year.
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