Question: Where are the Marlins getting all this money?!
by nickler on Dec 6, 2011 5:25 PM CST
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Once again, thank you all for your wisdom. I tried to look this up but cannot find an answer.
Where on earth are the Marlins coming up with all the money for free agents?!
I do understand they have a new "stadium deal". However, they have no fans. That team can't even fill a stadium when they are in the World Series! Whether or not they have a new stadium, they need fans to bring in the revenue... right?
I can't imagine they have a big TV deal either.
Offering a 10 year deal to Pujols, a long term deal to Reyes and bidding on CJ Wilson? Are you kidding me??
Florida is not a great place to sit outside in the summer and watch baseball. They don't seem to have much of a fan base. I was actually expecting the Marlins to move to another city... not go on a spending spree.
Thanks for your answers. This one I just can't figure out.
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Loria
has a secret printer in the basement. If the investigation gains legs, this could get ugly. Fast..
10-25-2011. Theo Epstein joins the Cubs. Now, the fun begins.
That's what I was thinking
… they might just be printing it up. If Loria is an expert on forgery with counterfeit paintings, he might venture into currency counterfeiting.
I actually think’s that’s less likely. More likely he scammed the money from someone.
by ddoubleheader on Dec 7, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions
...
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/33/baseball-valuations-11_Florida-Marlins_336786.html
Money quote:
Forbes has been showing for years that the Marlins have been among the most profitable teams in baseball, but politicians who voted for the publicly financed stadium said they were surprised to learn that the team was making so much money after the Marlins’ financial documents were leaked. Owner Jeffrey Luria had been lining his pockets with money he has gotten from the league’s revenue-sharing system instead of signing good players. Politicians could have saved taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars with a little more due diligence.
Sign Roy O
I literally laughed out loud at this...
If there’s one thing Miami politicians are not known for, it’s doing due diligence.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
Underated Film
Long Riders. The Quaids, Keaches, Carradines, and even Christopher Guest. Music by Ry Cooder. Cool film.
Agreed...
Cool slo-motion shots of the attempted get away towards the end. Great film.
"Keep looking into the past and you'll keep repeating the past" - Some Smart Guy
Looks like
The Fourth Doctor (Tom Baker) from that distance, minus the scarf.
by ddoubleheader on Dec 7, 2011 3:18 PM CST up reply actions
No one ever said they didn't have the money before
I think it’s more that the Marlins just never bothered to spend it.
Pujols = Revenue. A new ballpark should also equal revenue. I think these contracts will lead to an extremely profitable decade for the Marlins whether they make the post season or not.
Find it on ESPN
Stark wrote a whole piece about it today; they had one of the worst lease deals in the league in Dolphins Stadium, they were on the receiving end of the revenue sharing and they only had about a $50M payroll to begin with, so its not hard to outpace that
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
They pocketed all the of the revenue sharing, and more notably the luxury taxes
from the big spending teams.
And with the new CBA, teams are forced to put that luxury tax receipt back into the payroll.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
I heard Loria is from Oregon
He recently found the remains of Chester Copperpot.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
by Hammer on Dec 6, 2011 8:43 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
He's closer related
to the Fratellis than any of the Goonies.
by ddoubleheader on Dec 11, 2011 6:25 PM CST up reply actions
They are hedging on it.
Madoff is secretly running them from jail.
by Grockcubs on Dec 6, 2011 9:15 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I live in Miami
The Marlins have been a profitable competitive team that have made good money off revenue sharing and luxury tax.
The only reason that attendance is so poor is that being outside for 3+ hours in Southern Florida in the summer is a bad time. Its 100 degree’s – 100% humidity and full of sudden rainstorms.
The new Stadium has a retractable roof and is where the old Orange bowl used to be. Plus Miami is a Hispanic city – The reason to go after Puljos is they’ll make up the money in marketing – stadium naming rights and the entire Latin American world.
by Hookers or Cake on Dec 6, 2011 9:32 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
The Hispanic angle
they said the same thing about the Angels after Arte Moreno bought the team—that he signed Bartolo Colon, Jose Guillen and Vlad Guerrero to market the team to the Hispanic community in Southern California. It was nice, but it turns out that what gets Latin fans into the ballpark is the same thing that gets everyone else in the ballpark: winning baseball. Having ushers and ticket agents who speak Spanish is more important to them than having ballplayers who do.
Pujols is maybe the greatest player of his generation. The Latin market would turn out to see him if his last name was Van Allen.
I thought it was because Arte lowered the price of a beer...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Near Fresno
But I used to live in Rancho Cucamonga.
by Josh Timmers on Dec 6, 2011 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
Aghh
Claremont here
Considering following the Angels because they are my best bet to see live MLB games. Dodgers are equal distance but driving into town is a pain.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
I haven't been to Angels Stadium in four years
but I’d highly recommend the experience. (Although honestly, driving to Anaheim is no picnic either. I was there last summer, and I forgot what it was like.)
Dodger Stadium has its charms and it is a more historic experience. But while Angels Stadium is the second oldest stadium in the AL, you wouldn’t know it since the remodel in 1996. Angels Stadium is universally clean and there is an usher and security presence everywhere, unlike in LA. Angels fans have more of a college football atmosphere—I love how quiet the place gets when the Rally Monkey is getting ready to come out and how the place explodes when he makes his appearance.
There are better sight lines in Anaheim and of course, you’ll pay less there. Even for the same price tickets, you’ll pay less in Anaheim for parking, concessions and souvenirs.
When I was living in Rancho, I never went to Dodger Stadium unless the Cubs were playing or someone gave me free tickets. (Why did no one give me free tickets when the Cubs were playing?) I went to Angels Stadium three or four times a year.
Of course, in both places you’ll have to deal with all those damn beach balls. And the wave. The place is good, it’s not perfect.
My feelings on the wave are well known.
It needs to end, like 10 years ago.
But I really don’t understand the beach ball thing. Who leaves the house going to a baseball game and says, “I think I’ll take a beach ball!”
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I've only been to Dodger Stadium once (about 3 yrs ago), but IIRC...
…they sell them there. Don’t remember if it’s the official vendors selling them in the aisles or the sneaky types out in the parking lots, but they’re available.
Where there’s a market, there’s a way…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I've never seen anyone officially selling them
And I’ve always seen the ushers take them away if they get their hands on them. But I wouldn’t be surprised to learn of people selling them under the table.
No, I completely don’t get it. Let’s spend $50 a ticket to watch 40k people knock a beach ball around?
by Josh Timmers on Dec 7, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
My parents:)
Marilyn Monroe "yogi your a pretty cool guy"
Berra " Marilyn you ain't so hot yourself"!
Thanks for the info
I went to 2 of the Cubs games at Dodger Stadium last season. With McCourt still in charge it was not that hard getting in and out because there was practically no one there.
The first game was a game Pena hit a bomb – which was either his first or second of the season and I had a FINALLY moment.
I forgot who the poster here is but his brother was the bullpen catcher last season – I yelled to him after the game. He gave me a big smile and a thumbs up and thennnnnnn threw a ball to a hot girl and not me.
Dodger dogs suck. Looking forward to checking out the Angels and the Rally Monkey.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
Winning baseball?
They’ve won the WS twice, but failed to sell out games consistently. I don’t believe a “winner” solves their attendance issues.
"I'm sore and I'm pissed off. I'm a baller. I want to feel the leather. I love thumb wars. 6-8 weeks? 6. follow me for healing, Jay Cutler does" - Jaysthumb twitter acct
I'm going to take a wild guess
that you haven’t been to any Angels games in the past few years.
I have, and you couldn’t possibly be more wrong. The crowds at the games are strongly attended by hispanic fans and they most definitely do come out to watch hispanic players. Of course, that includes players that are hispanic that may have grown up in Santa Ana, but it is most definitely a huge dynamic for the Angels and their marketing.
to say that's the only reason attendance is so poor is disingenuous
I live in South Florida. I’m a Cubs fan. All of my friends down here are Mets, Phillies, Yankees, etc fans. The reason being? When we grew the Marlins weren’t around and we were raised by transplanted families that had ties to other regions.
The team lacks local support because of this.
It also lacks local support because those that are native to florida don’t have a long history with the team either, the options to do other things leads to many fans being quite “fair weather”, and the public relations with the team has been a disaster.
It’s not simply the weather. There’s a lot more to it than that.
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 7, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
And a lot of that gets masked when you add a shiny new indoor stadium and sparkling new players
It’s a tried and true formula. Especially when the public paid for most of the stadium.
"Just shut up and play" - Matt Garza
"Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option." - Dale Sveum
by RiskyBusiness on Dec 7, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
it gets masked with winning
a stadium helps too, but the winning will be the driving factor in attendance improving beyond the first year (when the stadium does make a big impact as an attraction)
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 7, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
The Marlins have won 2 world Series
and still no one shows up.
as for the weather no one wants to go to a day game. June-Aug its hot and if you live here you know its gonna rain. People would rather go to the beach or to a bar. So the new stadium with roof will help a little.
I still think the new stadium will FAIL big time. Mainly because its a horrible location.
No one north of Dade will come out to games except for guys like me to see their favorite team when they come to town for maybe a game or two. Add to the fact that Miami is actually fairly poor and the stadium is in a poor area… there is nothing around there. No walk up sales. No public transit. Even if they go to the playoffs for the next 3 years I don’t see them succeeding. Its too bad
by Hookers or Cake on Dec 7, 2011 12:50 PM CST up reply actions
marlins home day games
they had 14 scheduled out of 81. Their attendance is down in day games, correct… but its not the SOLE cause of attendance issues down here
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 7, 2011 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
Marlins have increased...
… the number of scheduled day games in 2012 to 22.
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A state of transplants
I’ve been reading something to that effect for years for Florida teams, not just Marlins & Rays, but also the Bucs among others. I’ve read some tallies that put the Marlins 3rd in the state (for baseball) behind the Yankees & Braves.
by ddoubleheader on Dec 7, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't mean to say the ONLY reason attendance was poor is the weather
there are a ton of reasons – not a good ballpark – bad area – expansion team – no mass transit – cheap ownership
but the new ballpark and a roof will help. I might actually go to a day game for starters! Lord knows I don’t want to try to get to Cubs BP for a 7 o’clock start down in that mess of rush hour traffic.
by Hookers or Cake on Dec 7, 2011 3:52 PM CST up reply actions
Apparently corporate welfare pays handsomely.
If compounded annually, gosh, I don’t have a calculator handy (other that this PC), but this could be a significant sum.
Plus getting the taxpayers to pay for your home is always nice. You don’t really make money from it, but at least you don’t have to spend any money to get it! Call it a break even.
And then there’s all the money they saved by trading Mike Hampton.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Dec 6, 2011 11:07 PM CST reply actions
I read that Mike Hampton got $23.5 from the Marlins between 2003 & 2005
If you average that out per year (which I’m not sure if that’s how the payments were arranged), he’d have been the second highest paid player on the ’03 World Series team. Insanity..
warm weather and bikinis
oh, wait…that’s what gets them free agents
I think they actually have fans
It’s just that the old stadium is a pain in the * to get to. The new one will be much more fan friendly and much more accessable to Miami proper. IMHO even if the Marlins didn’t stock up this year you would see a big increase in attendance just because of the new location.
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
The old stadium is pretty easy to get to
Right off the turnpike and closer to Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach. Actually the new stadium will be a lot harder to get to if you live anywhere North of Dade and I think the location and lack of public transit will hamper it.
by Hookers or Cake on Dec 7, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
I hear what you're saying
I’m originally from Jupiter and for me it wasn’t bad . we used to go for football games but for my miami friends they all claim the orange bowl was easier.
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
No
Instead ask yourself why the Cubs claim they don’t have it.
I'm not sure either.
Is he saying the Cubs should go on a spending spree? Because that could be counterproductive.
Or that they’re being cheap? Because that simply is not true.
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Please provide a single quote of the Cubs claiming they don't have money to spend.
Go ahead. I’ll wait.
by bdlugz on Dec 7, 2011 9:09 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yawn
Let’s do this for the literalists, let’s just say the Cubs aren’t planning on acting like a large market team anytime soon. Their lukewarm pursuit of Pujols and Fiielder and acquisition of a very average stop gap RF speaks volumes.not only for the length of time this rebuilding project is going to take (if it ever gets rebuilt in the first place), but also for the manner in which it will be done. More San Diego small market than Chicago large market in my opnion.
Good for the Marlins if they’re being aggressive and spending market dollars.
Jim Hendry?
Is this you? You didn’t see how this line of thinking hasn’t worked for the Cubs over the past two decades? Maybe they should run out and sign Danny Jackson, George Bell and Dave Smith… or maybe heap piles of money on Soriano, Jason Marquis and Ted Lilly while giving back loaded deals with to trade clauses to Zambrano and others. Sorry, man, but this hasn’t worked for the Cubs and they finally have someone in the driver seat with long term vision. It may not meet your need for instant gratification, but that doesn’t make it wrong.
by dmlichte on Dec 7, 2011 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Day 2 of the winter meetings just concluded and you've already managed some ridiculous assumptions.
How is it down in Dallas? as you’re clearly more familiar with the Cubs pursuits of top tier FA than the rest of us stuck here on the internet, I can only assume you’re involved in talks.
I guess Beltran was due a 5 year backloaded contract?
John Grabow - Who will pay you $4.8 million in 2012?
It's all the money they've been pocketing
from revenue sharing.
Remember teams like the Cubs fork over about 1/3rd of their gross baseball revenue to prop up bottom feeders like the big fish.
Just win the next game...!
The answer
They have some of the money from pocketing it for years and years of revenue sharing. They have enough, given the stadium was publicly-financed to be able to support a revenue jump nearing $100 million this year
Now do they have enough revenues to sustain that level of payroll? That is yet to be seen and determined by how well they do at selling out their new ballpark consistently. Part of the reason they’re spending now is to help ensure the revenues are there and create a buzz along with the team. They saw what happened to the Heat when basketball in Miami was largely an after thought (along with any other sport that isnt winning down here) and it transformed over night.
By trying to emulate the Heat the Marlins are hoping to capture that short-term attention span and then leverage it into revenues for the next few years. What happens when they stop winning though and the back-end of these contracts become suffocating on their payroll? Well…. I dont think they’ll be around to find out.
That’s the story that is getting under-played here but most in South Florida are starting to assume. This ownership group hasn’t exactly been forthright in the public and has a history of lets call it shady business dealings. Considering everything this franchise is doing in this offseason is counter to everything they’ve always preached… I’m of the belief that the Marlins ownership group is trying to capitalize on a huge potential payday.
They’ve just gotten the taxpayers to fund their new stadium and now they’re going to inflate the valuation of the club by signing a bunch of superstars, creating a winning environment and plenty of media attention over the next 2-3 years. I imagine the franchise will be at its peak valuation somewhere in the midst of this success and I fully expect the ownership group to capitalize on that by selling the franchise and raking in a nice handsome profit (before the contracts start to erode the bottom line and the revenues being repaid to the city become a bigger portion of the bottom line)
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 7, 2011 10:54 AM CST reply actions
This sounds eerily similar to what Zell and the Tribune Co did with the Cubs after the 2006 season
spend money to inflate value and then sell before the back ends of all of the big contracts they dolled out…..
yes
and if you look at the structure of the Reyes deal I think it lends credence to this belief:
Reyes – 10, 10, 16, 22, 22, 22.
If they similarly structure other big FA deals this way they could rake in big revenues in the first 3 years and then look to put the team up for sale before the big contracts start declining in performance and increasing in cost
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 7, 2011 1:07 PM CST up reply actions
Right.
As noted elsewhere, it amounts to a NTC — the Marlins don’t give out NTC’s, but those figures will make it virtually impossible to trade him.
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year 5 he gets a real NTC anyway
because of 10/5 rights
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Dec 7, 2011 9:03 PM CST up reply actions
This should get interesting if the SEC starts digging deeper
I mean, it’s not illegal to pocket the money you receive in revenue sharing, it’s your business profit as the owner. But the shady dealing, possibly bribes and favors, maybe even tax evasion (usually gets everyone right?). Personally though, you have to also make enough of a profit on sales from the fans to be successful, and if the Rays can’t even draw in fans, how will the Marlins draw in even more? Prices for tickets will probably be even higher with the new stadium, and even though they have Ramirez, Reyes, Bell, and possibly Pujols and Wilson soon, I still don’t think it’s going to be much of a draw. The Miami area has always been Dolphins and Heat, and it still probably won’t change…
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2009 & 2011 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
"Terry's down, oh my! Van Persie all by himself now, around Cech, and that'll do it!"
It's been Heat...
Only since 2006 and the signing of Shaq and the emergence of Dwayne Wade. Before that, you could hear a cricket chirp in the old Miami Arena.
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
Who is the Marlins'
little friend, I wonder?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Dec 7, 2011 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
(Alex Trebek voice)
No.
Sorry, that had to be done.
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If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Dec 7, 2011 11:15 PM CST up reply actions
How do you get a scar like that saving money?
"I'm sore and I'm pissed off. I'm a baller. I want to feel the leather. I love thumb wars. 6-8 weeks? 6. follow me for healing, Jay Cutler does" - Jaysthumb twitter acct
Loria,
You’re always on the run now
Runnin’ after somebody
You’ve gotta get him somehow
I think you’ve got to slow down
Before you start to blow it
I think you’re headin’ for a breakdown
So be careful not to show it
You really don’t remember
Was it something that he said?
Or the voices in your head calling, Loria?
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
Drugs...?
"[The Cubs] have a very famous tradition in baseball, and it will be nice to be part of turning it around." ~ Jamie Quirk, Bench Coach
Nobody puts Baby in a corner (or the principal's office)!
Unless she gets a face lift and nobody recognises her. Charlie must think he’s quite the Hot Shot there. Of course, that was a different time, Lloyd Bridges/Mike Nelson was president and world leaders duelled out their problems with swords.
by ddoubleheader on Dec 11, 2011 6:30 PM CST up reply actions
Well, we now know
that the Angels have just inked a $3 Billion deal with Fox for the TV rights to their games over the next 20 years.
That’s $150M per year, folks. Just for the TV rights.
Don’t know what the Marlins TV deal is, but wanna bet they are anticipating a nice boost in the foreseeable future?
Different fanbases, different markets.
Obviously, the LA TV market and Angels fanbase can support a deal like this.
Miami TV market? Not so much. And the Marlins don’t really have a fanbase. Yet.
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LA is the #2 market
They obviously have the population for 2 strong teams. All 4 doubled cities (New York, LA, Chicago, ‘Cisco) have the populations for spending a lot on teams. Of course, the A’s had to get creative when Oakland became Oafland or Oh..land. Miami is a big market, but not that big. It is funny, baseball is a big hit in the Caribbean and on Cuba and despite being populated by Cubans and other Hispanics, baseball isn’t big in south Florida.
by ddoubleheader on Dec 11, 2011 6:34 PM CST up reply actions
If the Cubs could get a similar deal
Id do cartwheels from here to Wrigley followed by an Ironman
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
Look at the numbers on the Angels-related thread
Games split between CSN and WGN, with payments well below the level of other high profile teams ($450K/game to CSN). Probably leaving something like $100M/year on the table.
Again, I need to point out that
… $450K a game, for 80 games, is still $36 million.
Not what the Angels are getting, but hardly chump change.
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The Angels are getting 417% more revenue from their TV deal than the Cubs.
Spin the $36 million however you want, we’re getting drastically less than we should.
The Angels just signed their deal; the Cubs deals have been in place for awhile
I’m not sure when the Cubs’ current broadcast deals were signed, but I’m pretty sure it was before the Angels and Rangers deals. So you really can’t compare with them; at least not now.
When the Cubs current deals have expired and negotiations for new deals are taking place (whether it’s WGN. CSN, etc. or it’s the Cubs10 network), then it’s a worthwhile exercise to compare with other deals and/or current market conditions. Until then, what’s the point?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The deals were signed awhile ago, but extended when Ricketts bought the team
That’s a pretty big thing to take into consideration.
Relative to the other financial powerhouse teams, it really is chump change
The deals the Trib negotiated are a revenue impediment. I imagine Ricketts is marking down the days on his calendar until the current deals expire.
True.
But to bitch about something that’s already in place and that cannot be changed (not you doing this) is pointless
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I don't see the talk in here as bitching
As much as what to expect in the future and how it can be a serious game changer.
You have to wonder if Ricketts might open the pocketbooks a little more knowing that money will be available soon.
It depends on how soon "soon" is.
It could be 3-4 years away.
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Which isn't all that far, IMO.
Adding an extra 10-15 million a year for 2-3 years knowing you’ll be earning 100 million+ per year on top of current media contracts would seem like an easy pill to swallow compared to 750k empty seats again.
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