Where Did the Steals go on the North Side?
by mikeschieve on Feb 11, 2011 7:59 AM CST
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I would like to know if anyone within the Cubs organization plans on stealing more bases this year? Starlin Castro finished last year with 10 steals, while Theriot did have 16 with the Cubs, he finished with 20 for the Dodgers.
Theriot has led the team in Steals since ’07, but Juan Pierre had 58 in ’06. For reasons that are not known or I don’t know the Cubs didn’t bring Pierre back. It might have something to do with the ’06 Cubs having 66 wins and last in their division, as well as the worst record in the NL.
Since ’06 League Leaders are averaging almost 70 steals a season, while the Cubs almost 28. I am not saying the Cubs need someone to go out and steal 70 bases next year, but maybe 30 or 40. You don’t need to be a baseball genius to know that if someone gets on base, the chances of them scoring a run are improved once they are put in scoring position.
Will the Cubs improve in this area? I don’t know, but I do hope it’s at least being looked into.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Stolen bases are overrated.
I want guys who can GET on base. That’s the key to scoring runs. The Cubs did that in 2008 — led the league in runs scored despite being below league average in SB.
Why did this happen? Because they led the league in walks and OBA. It really is (mostly) that simple.
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Also...
… Juan Pierre didn’t come back, among other reasons, because despite all the steals, he was really not a good offensive player. He had the lowest BA in MLB history (.292) for anyone who had a 200-hit season. And the 2006 Cubs finished last in the NL in OBA and second to last in runs. Pierre wasn’t the only reason for that, obviously, but he didn’t help much. Example: despite leading the league in AB (699) and having a comparable number of AB and PA to the Phillies’ Jimmy Rollins, he scored FORTY fewer runs (87 to 127).
Stolen bases are overrated.
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agree, but
I agree, the Cubs as would any team should first focus on just getting on base. I would like to see them move around and create some offense if they can’t bunt due to a certain hitter being up. I would like to have some speed out there, for instance get on base, steal second then maybe score from two on a single. Do you think Castro can provide that possible speed? What are your thoughts on the possible rotating lead-off guy?
I think the Cubs...
…. should get guys on base, no matter who they are. If Jeff Baker does well at leadoff vs. LHP — and there is evidence that he can do that — then let him do it, regardless of his speed.
The Red Sox scored tons of runs with Wade Boggs as their leadoff hitter for years, because he got on base a lot, even though he couldn’t run.
I repeat, stolen bases are overrated.
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Re:
I don’t disagree with your overall sentiment and I am was happy to see Pierre leave, especially considering the $ he got from LA.
That said, some of the numbers you cite aren’t particularly fair. For example, the runs scored. Pierre reached base 236 times in 750 plate appearances, while Rollins reached base 248 times in 758 plate appearances. So, from that perspective, they are pretty similar. Rollins scored himself (22 more HR) so that is part of the equation there, but, really, much of the difference between Pierre and Rollins runs scored is a result of an anemic offense behind Pierre.
Eamus Ursuli!
True.
Nevertheless, steals alone won’t score you runs.
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Agreed
It would be nice to see steals somehow incorporated into OPS. In reality it wouldn’t be that hard. On some level a single and steal is equal to a double, a single and thrown out stealing is equivalent to an attempt to stretch a single.
It is interesting to me that in this age of advanced stats the steal has been largely left untouched and ignored. This has had the effect that it seems to be either over or under-valued in many cases.
Eamus Ursuli!
I've often wondered about this, too.
I share many people’s dislike of Juan Pierre’s game for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. But I’ve also found myself thinking, “Yeah, but if he slaps a single and then steals a base, isn’t that just like hitting a double?” Plus, there’s the whole “disrupting the pitcher’s rhythm once he’s on base” thing. I go back and forth about it.
In any case, as far as I know, a stat like wOBA doesn’t take into account stolen bases. Or does it? I’d be curious as to what sabermagicians have to say about this.
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What has he done since though.
This is one of those moves that JH doesnt get credit for. Not bringing him back. Just pointing it out, not looking for a JH debate.
"Baseball is ninety percent mental. The other half is physical." -Yogi Berra
Fair Enough
I look at stolen base success rate more than overall stolen bases. While Davey Lopes was coaching first base for the Phillies, their success rate was incredibly high. That really helped Philadelphia. I realize you can’t steal first base unless you are A.J. Pierzynski, but I would like to see the Cubs run a little more and have Bob Dernier work with the baserunners. I’d like to see the Cubs be successful in 70 out of 105 attempts. I don’t think that’s out of the question. I don’t envision the 2011 Cubs being like the 1985 Cardinals with stealing bases.
2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.
Actually, if I remember the stats correctly a 2/3 successful steal rate would lower a team's expected wins
My recollection is that a team needs a 75% success rate for the bases gained to overcome the outs lost. So base stealers have to have a really good track record to be a net plus.
well, nothing alone save a home run will score you runs.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Stolen bases are overrated because Juan Pierre had sucky stats?
How about Juan Pierre is overrated because Juan Pierre had sucky stats? That would be a fair argument to make.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
No, stolen bases are overrated in general.
Unless you have a guy who consistently could get on base at a .400 clip and steal bases at an 80% rate — very rare — it’s not really worth worrying about IMO.
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I would have used the words "sucked on toast."
But yours are probably better for actual analysis.
Other, random point: Probably the most valuable thing about steals is that they’re fun.
Before each game, please remember to feed the bats.
The Cubs led the leauge in runs in 2008 because they had 6 players hit over 20 homeruns apiece. If not for those 6, most of those runners would have been stranded on base.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
But all of those runners had to get on base in the first place.
The ’08 Cubs led the league in OBP.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
What good are all of those runners if Lee, Ramirez, and Soriano are going to beat the ball into the gound for a 6-4-3? If you lead the leauge in obp and are 5th in home runs hit, then of course you are going to lead in runs scored. If you are not a team that hits the ball out of the park with regularity (like the 2008 team) you need to steal bases and use the hit and run to keep the innings alive . This is the importance of the stolen base. It was frustrating last year watching sleepy Lou wait for the 3 run homer that never came. Watching Lee and Ramirez go through epic slumps and never using the hit and run to try to help them break out of them.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
Derrek Lee tied a team record for GIDP in 2008 with 27.
That still didn’t stop him and others from driving in enough runs to lead the NL in scoring. They don’t hit into DP every single time at bat.
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Don't Forget Davey Lopes
It’s hard to believe that a 40-year old in 1985 was successful in 47 of his 51 steal attempts with the Cubs That was Lopes. I’m thinking that if the Dodgers hadn’t had such a power-laden lineup from the mid-1970’s through the early 1980’s that Lopes might have stolen more bases than he did with the Dodgers as a younger player. Lopes was somewhere close to Tim Raines and Willie Wilson in career stolen base percentage. As a part-time older player in the pre-steroids era with the Cubs, Lopes was amazing.
2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.
That is, BTW...
… the most steals in one season by anyone 40 years old or older.
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I think they're playing the Empty Bottle this weekend.
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I don't know but I want them back
Even the threat to steal goes a long way in keeping pitchers and fielders off balance. Of course that MUST go in tandem with high OBP.
Just win the next game...!
Didn't you get the memo, blackhawk? Steals are overrated, no matter what. Steals. Are. Overrated.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Not quite as much fun as a cat fight.
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Hawk fight?
I got $500 on blackhawk if the “24” is for Havlat or Probie. If it is for Boynton, I am getting in line behind ballhawk.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
I'm more of a Tiger Williams type...
Havlet? I can take him no problem. Probie? No thanks. I may be dumb, but I’m not stupid. He’s one bad mother…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I know that's Al's position
and I vehemently disagree. It’s not a substitute for high OBP players but an outstanding compliment…
Just win the next game...!
I'm with you - just forgot my sarcasm font that day...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Pierre ended up getting a $45 million contract from LA, which was absurd
almost as absurd as the Soriano deal the same offseason
ask not what the Cubs can do for you - ask what you can do for the Cubs.
Hollow Batting Average
Pierre has always had a good batting average but has never walked much. He hasn’t gotten as many as 30 XBH in a season since 2007. Pierre can’t throw. A career OPS of .713 is not that impressive. He’s sort of the modern day Mickey Rivers.
2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.
I'd be happy....
…with just some good, sound heads up baseruning and taking the extra base when available. Huge fan of OBP, but not a fan of station to station baserunning once on base. The steal attempts would have to be successful 80% or more for me to want that aspect of the game emphasized.
Get on base and take advantage of the opportunities presented, with smart baserunning.
Heck I'd be happy with baby steps.
Before even “heads up” baserunning and grabbing extra bases, let’s stop getting picked off and generally stupid decisions on the basepaths.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
So, you are not a fan of the TOOTBLAN?
Hope Theriot brings to full measure of his (s)crappiness to the Cards!
Pierre was also a bad defensive player.
His speed in center helped make up for the fact that he took bad routes, but he had NO arm to speak of. Bad defense, bad OBP and the general distaste of 2006 made it clear that the Cubs had no interest in giving Pierre $45 million. It was a contract the Dodgers quickly regretted, as Pierre had to move to left shortly after arriving in LA.
Pierre is and was a good guy and a hard worker — which is why he never got the same treatment that Jacque Jones got from fans on the North Side. But acquiring him (for a boatload of pitching prospects) was arguably Hendry’s worst trade, and not giving him $45 million was definitely the right move (even if it made the trade with Florida all the more regrettable).
Pierre is also a tremendous bunter.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Steals waste outs
I’m not saying that we shouldn’t make any attempts, we just have to be smart about it. I’d rather have players that can draw walks, get on base, and move the next man forward without risking a loss of 1 of our precious 27 outs given to us. Read Moneyball, fantastic book that goes into great depth on this view
~Ronald Reagan has held the two most demeaning jobs in the country; President of the United States and radio broadcaster for the Chicago Cubs~ George F. Will
Rickey Henderson and Tim Raines
They drew a lot of walks in addition to their stealing bases.
2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.
Waste outs???
Did you see what aggresive baserunning can do for an untalented team (other than Dawson Grace and Sandbeg) in 1989???? Stolen bases keep you out of double plays (Derrick Lee) and move runners into scoring position for the middle of the order without having to sacrifice. Even the best catchers only throw out 30% of the runners against them. Sounds like a pretty good risk/reward to me. BTW, how many rings does Billy Beane have again with his “moneyball”?
"Trade me right fucking now!"
How many rings does Jim Hendry have without it?
Which team averages more wins? Which team averages more wins per payroll $?
Moneyball isn’t the be all-end all, but the “rings” argument is tired and easily refuted.
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 12, 2011 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Easily refuted?????????
Um, hmmmm. let me see here. Lets start with the Yankees, then the Red sox, then The Phillies, then, oh yeah, the Cardinals. What do these teams have in common? They all have multiple World Series appearances (and in the case of the Yankees and Red Sox, multiple wins) since good old Billy has been a GM and they all laugh at his “moneyball”. Not so easily refuted, eh? The rings arguement is not tired! That is your goal every season. Or, at least for real fans it is.
"Trade me right fucking now!"
Yep. It is.
The A’s don’t have nearly the same budget as any of the teams that you mention. And they’ve had several winning seasons, which is about all that a team can be built for — put the best team together that you can, and see what happens.
You sound a bit like Joe Morgan.
Oh, and because of your last sentence, I now feel the need to call your sig line to Al’s attention.
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 13, 2011 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
Tried to change
I tried to “edit” my signature but it is not changing.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
Yeah, I felt a little bad
I reacted poorly to the “real fans” comment.
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 14, 2011 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
The “real fans” comment was not ment to be directed at you. It was a shot to the “wrigley fans” who show up for the “experience” and could not tell you what the score was unless it was the top of the first. The way to tell a true fan of the team and not of the park, ask them if they would allow the park to be torn down if it ment a world series win. If they say no, fan of the “worlds largest outdoor beer garten” if they say yes, you have a Cub fan.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
Nothing whatsoever.
They’re featured at most of my favorite German restaurants.
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The way to tell a true fan of the team and not of the park, ask them if they would allow the park to be torn down if it ment a world series win. If they say no, fan of the "worlds largest outdoor beer garten" if they say yes, you have a Cub fan.
Nonsense.
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Why do you believe this is nonsense? If you are a fan of the “team” you want the team to win. Don’t get me wrong, I love wrigley and can’t wait to take my son there when he gets old enough. But if the baseball gods came to you and said the Cubs would win the 2011 world series, but you had to tear down the park and play in a new stadium, I would voulnteer to drive the bulldozer! Going to Hawk games in the old barn was amazing, but sitting in front of my tv with my son, watching the Hawks skate with the cup for the first time since 1961 was something I will hold in my heart as long as I live. And I never once thought “this sucks because the Stadium is gone” I want that feeling with the Cubs! Nostalga is great, but NOTHING beats winning!
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
Yes, of course I want to win.
But your statement appears to have the premise that “it’s the ballpark’s fault”.
That’s not correct. And it wasn’t the old Chicago Stadium’s fault that the Blackhawks didn’t win from 1961 until the UC was built.
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That was not my intent at all. The ballpark is not to blame for years of mismanagement, poor drafting, poor talent evaluation, and way too many swing and misses on free agents. Just like every other park, the bases are still 90’ apart and home plate is still 60’6" from the pitching rubber. My intent was to show there are 2 types of fans that show up to games. Fans that are there for the ballpark, don’t care if the team wins or loses just so long as the park is old and the beer is cold (fan of the park). And the type of fans that who live and die by every pitch, know the starting lineup even if their names where not on their backs (which they should not be, but that is another arguement for another time) and would give anything to see a championship banner raised . I hear way too much “If they ever tear down Wrigley, I will never go to a game again”. That is a load of garbage. If you are a fan, you don’t care where they play, Wrigley, Comisky, or the park down the street. The Cubs have done an unbelievable job marketing Wrigley to the point that people call it a shrine.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
I live and die by every pitch,
know the starting lineup even if their names are not on their backs and would give anything (well almost anything-I do have some morals) to see a championship banner raised. But I also love the shrine and a cold beer. I would be heartbroken to see Wrigley torn down. Hec, I cry when I have to leave it for the last time each season. I would still root for the Cubs if Wrigley was gone, but it would be incredibly sad. Sure nothing beats winning, but nostalgia is the icing on the cake.
She is correct.
Mister Zero, your statement:
Fans that are there for the ballpark, don’t care if the team wins or loses just so long as the park is old and the beer is cold (fan of the park).
is incorrect. You can want both. I’m one of those.
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You are missing my point. You can want both. if you read my above post. “Don’t get me wrong, I love wrigley and can’t wait to take my son there when he gets old enough.” and the quote you posted above (I don’t know how to highlight it or I would have) I love Wrigley too. But, I am a fan of the Cubs first. I can’t tell you how many times I have been to a game where I have to listen to the people behind me babble about this and that the entire game and have no idea what is going on in the game. A few times I have been asked walking out if the cubs had won or not. You just sat through the entire game and don’t know who won? These are the “fans of the park” like stated above “don’t care if the team wins or loses”. I would be willing to assume if you are reading and posting this site and have opinions on the goings on of the club, you are a fan of the team, would be sad if the park was gone, but would follow them wherever they played.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
by Mister Zero on Feb 17, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
OK
Sorry if I misunderstood. I thought you were giving an either/or scenario. Being a fan of the team AND the park I disagreed.
You seem to sit by a bunch of losers. Come join me sometime up in the nosebleeds. Seems the people by me must pay more attention. Or maybe I’m paying too much attention to notice. I’ve never been asked who won. Wow, just wow.
by katie casey on Feb 17, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
the Red Sox certainly do not laugh at Moneyball
they are one of the most intelliently run organizations with Theo. You may want to read Moneyball to understand it. Your reply shows you did not understand what you read, if you read it at all. FWIW, Bill James is employed by the Red Sox and the “Greek God of Walks” also resides in Beantown. The book is more than “don’t give away outs” and “using stats placing a premium on OBP.”
My take on Moneyball
What I took away from moneyball is that they put a higher value on the “in between” stats. By doing this they are able to put together a competitive team by not spending as much money on tier 1 free agets like the major market teams. They also look deeper in the draft past the big name high school players to the solid collegate players. Notice I said “competitive” not CHAMPIONSHIP! The major stats are still what win ballgames. Home runs, batting average, fielding percentage, era, walk/strikeout ratio. I do not see many “moneyball” players on the Red Sox. I see high priced free agents (Beckett, Matusazaka, Crawford, Drew, Cameron, Martinez, Manny ) with the big stats that get you paid the big bucks. “moneyball” may be a nice way to round out your roster with a supporting cast, but make no mistake, it is the A-Rods, Jeters, Becketts, Sabathias, Halladays, Victorinos, Gardners of the league that win you the World Series. Which was my point, moneyball may get you a nice team, but money gets you a ring. In the last 10 years only 2 winners have had a payroll under $75mil and in the past 12 years only 1 team won with a payroll not in the top 6 in their leauge.
By the way badger, if you say I sound like Joe Morgan again, I will beat you with my Ryne Sandberg autographed bat. (Said completely in jest. I would never myself beat someone with a bat nor would I ever endorse such activity. Comment was typed with intent to show my utter distain for the most overrated secondbaseman of all time, who would not be in the hall of fame if not for ESPN and his Reds teammates.)
Moneyball was about taking advantage of undervalued assets.
No one ever claimed the best way to win was to spend half as much as every other club. Beane has done a good job considering how little he’s had to work with. He doesn’t shun the players you mentioned, but simply realizes he can’t afford them and does his best to make due with what’s available to him. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize Albert Pujols is worth a crap ton of money, and we’re fortunate to be fans of a team that can (and hopefully still will) afford to be high spenders. Still, every position isn’t going to be filled by a guy making 10+ million dollars. That’s where drafting good players, not wildly overpaying middling free agents, making solid trades, and not giving Koyie Hill 800 grand comes in.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
by shoemile on Feb 15, 2011 1:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
All the way to the bank - the Sawks are "Moneyball with a high budget"
And they have done pretty well with it, too.
IIRC, 1989 Was A Long Time Ago
That team was better known for aggressive baserunning than stolen bases. That team didn’t steal as many bases as the 1984 team, but I felt the 1989 team had better overall speed. Ron Cey, Jody Davis, and Keith Moreland could really clog up the basepaths on the 1984 club. The 1984 team stole more bases mainly because of Bob Dernier and Ryne Sandberg.
2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.
I agree that steals are overrated...
and don’t mind that we’re consistently below average in SBs. I will say though that I think it is quite the asset come playoff time to have a late-inning runner who can really get in the head of the pitcher and maybe take a bag. Not that that will be relevant for the Cubs in 2011.
They just need to figureout how to move guys safely
Id like to see the cubs try to be more aggressive in tie games and 1 run games. Small things like running the bases well and throwing down key bunts would be better to stress than stolen bases.
But it would be nice to see guys like Colvin, Castro, and Brett Jackson give us extra bases in tough situations when most cubs have failed to hit in the clutch.
I've observed that the Cubs
are one of the worst bunting teams in the NL. At least last year’s team was. When your lineup is full of #6 hitters, its tough to bunt.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Where did all the steals go?
Ask the sleepy fat man who was running the ballclub on the bench for the last 3 years. I am sure that the speedy players would have loved to have padded their SB stats, but sleepy lou would rather wait for the 3 run homer.
"Trade me right fucking now!"
What speedy players?
The Cubs didn’t have any “speedy” players.
What about the San Francisco Giants, who finished dead last in the NL in steals, but won the World Series?
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Uh, SF was not dead last
they were tied for last…with the Chicago Cubs.
What about the Philadelphia Phillies, who stole twice as many bases as the Giants, and that helped them to score 87 more runs than the Giants?
The Phillies only had 3% more Total Bases than the Giants, but scored 14% more runs. How did they do it? By walking more and stealing more bases. That is how you manufacture runs.
There were five teams in the NL that finished at least two places higher in runs scored than in Total Bases. All of them finished in the top half of the league in walks and all but one finished in the top half of the league in SB. The lone exception was the Braves, who led the league in walks by a HUGE margin.
To clarify
if you are the Reds: play in a hitter friendly ballpark and lead the league in TB and runs scored, great. As long as you have some pitching to go with it.
If you are offensively challenged, and you don’t have great pitching like the Giants or Padres, then you gotta find a way to manufacture some runs other ways.
The teams that did that well last year were the Braves, Phillies, Padres, and Cardinals.
The Cubs did not. They were 9th in total bases, 10th in runs scored, 14th in walks and last in stolen bases.
Right...
… but the Cubs’ failure to score wasn’t because they didn’t steal enough bases. It was largely because they had a well below league average OBP.
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Lou said Lee earned the right to hit in the 3rd spot
By all that's holy, I am going to attend the 2012 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp.
Speedy players: Sam Fuld and Starlin Castro. That's it.
Fuld barely played last season and Castro doesn’t yet have the field awareness to be effective stealing bases.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
I actually don't think Castro is all that fast.
As he develops further, I’d like to see him get mid-range power rather than become a “speed guy”.
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Well, It's Hard to See How He'll Gain Speed With Age
Because I agree with you about his speed, I’d like to see him become a 15 HR a year guy, which used to be considered a lot for a shortstop. I’d like to see him steal about 15 bases a year from 2011 to 2014. When Sandberg first came to the Cubs, I thought of him as a speed guy, but he developed into a more of a power guy as time passed, especially from 1989-1992. That might not have been the four season stretch by a NL second baseman, but it was close. The infamous Joe Morgan from 1973-1976 might have been better.
2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.
That's it?
Colvin, Fukodome, Theriot (while he was here), Soriano (Don’t give me the the injury BS, he did not get hurt back when he was stealing bases regularly, he needs to run more to stay healthy, not less).
"Trade me right fucking now!"
Colvin and Fukudome are not fast.
Theriot, surely you jest.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
And, Soriano DID have two serious leg injuries in 2007 and 2009.
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And he's 35.
Soriano was fast, but to say that he still is, regardless of injury is faulty. We are not a speedy team and I’m OK with that, “get on base and let the big suckers knock em in.” (Earl Weaver)
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
He is still fast. He can still go first to third with the best of them when he is motivated. His age is not an excuse, Ricky Henderson was stealing bases into his 40s.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
well, if one 40 year old did it, then of course all others after him can.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Stolen bases might be overrated.
But the threat of speed isn’t. This is somewhere where the stats don’t seem to accurately measure. And it’s a threat the Cubs don’t currently have in their recent historically inept offense.
Once the Giants loan us their pitching I won’t worry about how few steals the Cubs have.
It’s like Hendry was so disgusted with Pierre (understandingly so) that he vowed for the Cubs to never steal a base again. This team needs a a spark at the top of the lineup, just as it has since Soriano stopped being effective there.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Feb 11, 2011 11:24 PM CST reply actions
Stolen bases add a different element to the game
While it’s true that stolen bases don’t always translate to runs, neither do walks or hits that aren’t home runs.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
unnecessary outs?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 13, 2011 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
You can get a recorded out any number of ways
Some risks are deemed acceptable based on the situation whether it’s a straight steal or a hit and run play.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
true, but thue risk/reward for steals is too high
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 15, 2011 7:41 AM CST up reply actions
Since precious few can steal at Lopes' success rate
stealing bases is not worth the risk
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 15, 2011 8:45 AM CST up reply actions
No guts
No glory. I could also make the argument that walks are overrated.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
And of course, I don't really believe walks are overrated
I can see the points people make to that effect, but I don’t buy the argument. The point is that if you can better put your team in a position to win, whether it’s drawing a walk or attempting a steal, then it’s not a bad thing.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
yep
a lot more ways to score from 2b than from 1B/Home. Scoring a run without a hit eats at opponents. A steal in the right time can decide those dreaded one-run games.
very much in agreement
I don’t think there’s a stat that measures opponent frustration but that was a very real thing during Lofton’s heyday with the Indians. A walk, some dancing off 1B, a steal, more dancing, another steal, then a fly ball and poof! 1-0 Tribe, and one very aggravated pitcher on the mound.
It was a beautfiul thing to see…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Yes, but players like that are unusual.
And the game was played somewhat differently then.
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Agreed, but since few can steal at a high rate of success
risk outweighs reward.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 16, 2011 7:54 AM CST up reply actions
No brains, no wins
you can make any argument you want but it does not mean all make sense. Walks matter, steals? Not so much unless you can steal successfully at a very high rate, and few do that.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Feb 16, 2011 7:53 AM CST up reply actions
can't you shoot holes in any positive action by making the same argument?
Any positive action doesn’t matter so much if you’re not doing it successfully. To wit…
Walks don’t matter so much if you take so many borderline pitches waiting for that walk you strike out a lot.
Home runs don’t matter so much if you’re swinging for the fences so much you hit a ton of fly balls and/or strike out a lot.
etc. etc.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The Cubs won't have this type of player
until and if Matt Szczur develops into a major leaguer.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Agreed.
Brett Jackson also could be a good leadoff/base stealer type.
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