WOW! The Bloom Is Really Off The Rose! (Ticket Sales Overflow Thread)
Not to beat a dead horse, but WOW! Opening day still available! Tix for ALL games available except Sox Yanks and Sat cards game. Good seats too! Most games have club box, Field box, Terrace box available. Need bleachers?? They're yours for the taking for all weekend games except the 3 big series I listed above. What a sales DISASTER! I'm curious to see how the team mgmnt will respond to this. Will they offer discount etc to bring people in. I think the MC presale has killed ticket sales the past couple of years. The high prices didnt help either!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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OH the hyperbole!
Disaster (for ticket sales) is when only 50 percents of the tickets are still available at game time. Tickets have been on sale to the general public for all of 24 hours. Lets give it a little time…
I think he is making a valid point
Sales are down. At the same time in previous years more games
have been sold out. Cubs Club Marquee and Ivy levels had sold out
and those are still available.
The Convention did not sell out, Fantasy Camp did not sell out, etc.
The sky may not be falling, but it could be a pretty down year for sales
across the board, not to mention the rooftops.
Good Guys Wear Blue
by Cubskingdom on Feb 26, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
Did we need another ticket post?
This could have been a comment under the front page post.
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you mean
the 600+post vwr thread? Why should everyone have to wade through 600+ posts about which tickets people bought if they want to talk about the topic of the general slowness of ticket sales?
DEJESUS!!!
by tomas21 on Feb 26, 2011 2:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Note below.
I left this as an overflow thread.
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Sorry Al
Just saw your comment. I will go there for any further comments
Good Guys Wear Blue
True but when you raise bleachers to a crazy level
and tens of thousands of fewer tickets are sold the increase in price will not come close to making up the revenue.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
you sure about that? take some of your facts (not conjecture) and do the math.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I agree with her on this one.
Many tickets that were sold by now have not been sold, and may not be sold at all unless the team plays well.
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interesting insight as to value
Individual ticket sales come from fans, fans visiting to Chicago on excursions (didn’t Ricketts say some % was attributed to this) then there are local fans on excursions but the reality is value is what a baseball fan thinks it is.
They can try sizzle and effort (sales & marketing) but the price point might be too high according to value. Would have Sandberg made a difference? Well the bet is Quade will produce the baseball wins…so the bet is on.
Then of course the economy has nothing to do with this either.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
I have no idea
what any sentence in your post means.
DEJESUS!!!
Don't you recognize a good ivy-ku when you see one?
You know, 67 syllables in the first paragraph, 64 in the second and then close with 17. This one is a classic…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
No kidding
What the hell was that?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
In about 100 years
High school English classes will overanalyze looking for some hidden meaning in the text.
Okay,
in all seriousness, I always thought it was just me. I swear I understand Charlie Sheen more clearly most of the time.
Just sayin’.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 28, 2011 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
Well the Cubs are not opening the books for me
but as they consistantly lie in public about how good sales are I would hardly believe them.We all saw the swaths of empty seats last year and we all se the vast decline in sales so far this year. My rough math would indicate that for every ticket not sold they would 10 or more tickets at either the 13 extra expensive games or via the MC premium ( an empty seat buys no food or drink etc.) RIght now only 5 games are sell outs which is just terrible. A number of the premium games which would clearly have sold out in the past are not. Have ever imagined weekend games against the Cardinals in the summer that don’t sell out in the bleachers?
You let me know when the Cubs open the books but in the meantime I will look at the unsold seats, beer & food sales.
How many teams to do know in sports that do can maintain record high prices and lots of empty seats?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
Even though games were not well attended at the end of last year - the tickets sold
Official attendance numbers, which are actually ticket sales, totaled over 3 million for 2010.
I would be shocked if they didn’t top 3 million again this year
I will be shocked if they do.
The only way is if they are a very good team. Last year they still had enough residual good will/good team to presell many. many more tickets than this year. The fact that Convention did not sell out was a huge red flag, the fact that there are bleacher tickets for Opening Day and Cardinal games in the summer is stunning. As recently as two years ago roughly 40 games were sold out in the bleachers in the first 24 hours.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 3:02 PM CST up reply actions
But that is still off
2008 = 3,300,200
2009 = 3,168,859
2010 = 3,062,973
Starting a losing trend and a bad economy did not help in 2009 and 2010. But the economy is still struggling to rebound (high gas prices with take a bite) and team is a question mark for 2011.
I think they can stay above 3MM in attendance. But slipping below would not surprise me either.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 26, 2011 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
In recent years....
… we used to hear about how the Cubs had set records for first-day sales, sold hundreds of thousands of tickets.
This year… crickets.
A winning season with near contention would probably keep the number above 3 million. Otherwise, no.
The average per game paid attendance has to be more than 37,037 for three million. I could easily see it dropping to 35,000 or so which would be a drop of 165,000 — more than 5%.
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A good economy helped the early sales
Now with a bad/uncertain economy, there will be more of a product-on-the-field mentality.
But the Cubs have numbers on their side. If they can start off well, the fan base is large enough to quickly buy up tickets.
Looking back at 2008 on baseballreference.com and the attendance figures are mind-numbing. There is not a home game below 37,000.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 26, 2011 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
Right.
But the 2008 season was before the economy tanked. And that team won more games than any Cubs team since 1945.
Things are different now.
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How BCB is different than other blogs
I was on a different SBNation baseball blog and someone posted a complete off-topic comment in a main thread and was asked why he didn’t do it as a fan post and he responded “Put it in some fanpost that no one will read?”
Here, it’s Al and me that get ignored.
huh.... who are you again?
and who’s this Al fellow?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Most of the fanposts here are very good and get read and commented on by a lot of people.
I just like to not have duplicate posts on topics.
Although, to be fair, there are over 600 comments on the front page thread, so I’m changing the headline here to make this an overflow thread for ticket topics, since it was commented on.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
I cruise through a bunch of SBN baseball blogs and read about a dozen semi-regularly and this is the only one I’ve seen that uses fanshots actively and it works for what that’s worth.
What I want to know is why is it the slowest to load?
answer: it's probably all those damn exclamation points...
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Ricketts...
…is a slow start in April from this situation getting worse.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Yep.
If the team plays well and is near first place early on, these tickets will sell eventually.
If not — look out below.
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Some people...
…learn the hard way and maybe thats what it will take for Ricketts to see the light.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Yup, like the STH wait list going to ZERO
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Bad news too for anyone with season tickets who has sold a few games on
Stub Hub each year to offset some of the cost of the rest. If the Cubs start slowly you’re only talking about the ten weeks from mid June to Labor Day (tourist season, no school, warm weather etc.) to unload tickets. But bad for brokers too which does put a smile on my face.
The brokers will be fine, unfortunatly.
IF they got caught surprised last season at all, they for sure won’t this one. They are probably a large reason those 5 or so marquee games sold outh (as they all undoubtedly put all their attention there instead of investing time in the random Saturday bleacher tickets that used to be worth twice face a couple of years ago).
They are also smart enough to go with what’s hot. I’m sure they are worried about Bulls tickets right now, and probably Rihanna at the United center and things like that instead.
Brokers aren’t dumb. Many are fans. Some are probably even here, the ones smart enough to really keep their finger on the pulse of their target market. They know what’s going on.
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Feb 27, 2011 9:29 AM CST up reply actions
I wonder about that.
With the price of those marquee games at $81 for bleachers (or higher if you bought online or during the premium presale), the margins for brokers are pretty slim. Yes, they have avoided the other games — but I still wonder how many they actually bought.
The Cubs may have taken a big slice out of the secondary market by pricing tickets the way they did. Unfortunately for them, they may have shot themselves in the foot at the same time.
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They likely grabbed as many non bleacher tickets as possible for big games
They will do better on a terrace outfield seat our UD reserve seat now. However their business overall will be a fraction of what it has been in past years for Cub tickets,
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 9:40 AM CST up reply actions
Yes, this is what I was getting at.
There are still games for the brokers to make money on, and they no doubt will, but the number of games they have to make money on will shrink.
I wonder about that.
Prices are still pretty high for those games. The margins are low. And in any case, you’re talking about maybe 4-5 games (the Yankee series, the White Sox Sat., Cardinals Sat.) — as opposed to the dozens of games they would have bought in other years.
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I think if I were a broker I would focus on weekend and night games
from mid June to Labor Day. They won’t reap the big profits of past years but those games should sell decently. You’re right about the big three weekends, Al. The Cubs have shrunk the brokers’ profit margin on those. Interesting gamble.
Of course, unlike brokers, the Cubs can later change the price without truly losing money. They didn’t buy their inventory, they just set the price they thought the market would bear and printed the tickets.
However these are the same games the Cubs are pushing prices to the breaking
point Other than Yanks, WS & Cards (Sat only there) they will likely struggle to make any money at all especially in the bleachers where they have traditionally feasted. If the Cubs wanted to drive the brokers out of the market $81 for games featuring the Astros & Marlins was the way to go. Most of the rest of the summer games are $65 in the bleachers and I don’t see much profit there.
The Cubs really can’t just say “oops” we changed are mind on May 1 and knock $15 to $20 off the bleachers and other tickets to sell them. It would cause far too much damage for it to be worth it. They are not going to make a blanket admission that the screwed up. Any major adjustment will be next year which they will attribute to the economy and on field performance rather than any mistake on their part.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
Margin on Yankees for say Terrace seat would be pretty good
Can easily get $50 to $75 above cost but yes 3 games does not make a good season for brokers and of course many brokers ARE season ticket holders so they will struggle like everyone else to sell off the lesser games especially in the bleachers,
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
I know what I think about the matter,
And I know what the occasional broker tells me when I care enough to ask. But if you’re that curious, Al, maybe you should think about going directly to the source. Why don’t you try “Interview with a (anonymous) ticket broker” as a future post? From what I know of these guys, it might be the most interesting interview you’ll do all year.
by Damen Jackson on Feb 28, 2011 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
I know a guy
Write if you want a good referral. He actually has been interviewed by the media. So you could probably figure it out.
by WhistlerWilliams on Feb 28, 2011 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
and then see if you can arrange for him/her to come back for a "chat" session a la Rob Neyer... ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
It may sound odd, but I had a great time in my seats last season
Attendance was down and sales on StubHub were almost non-existent. But when I went to games, I stretched out a little more, chatted with my my friends, and enjoyed a summer of baseball. I didn’t even have a winning record at games I attended – 8-10. But I still have a fun year.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
Lousy
Low prices, not a lot of demand even for great dates in the summer. Friday vs. PHI for $20 per ticket in July.
Back in 2009, I realized 5 days before a Friday game in July that I could take off for the game as I had planned. I put 3 tickets up on StubHub and went to a family party. I came home 9 hours later to find they sold for $99 each.
Then the Cubs had a bad road trip to SDG and LA and the bottom fell out of the market and continued in 2010.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 26, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions
I know what you mean.
I had a blast going at the end of last season when the park was emptier. Don’t get me wrong. I have even more fun when they are winning. But it was pretty cool being able to sneek down to some of the better seats in later innings.
Had the fever and had it bad.
Andre Dawson Night
August 30, 2010. It was 83 degrees at game time. Attendance = 29,538
I know it was a Monday night and schools had just started again. But you’d think more people would come out to enjoy a beautiful night.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 26, 2011 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
I thought that one was sort of embarrassing.
You’d thing more people would have come out for Andre Dawson.
Had the fever and had it bad.
I think it's Frustration or Fair Weather Fans
The Cubs downturn since 2008 has either Frustrated fans who previously who have attended games during a losing season, or the Fair Weather Fans have started to walk away and are looking for other spending opportunities.
It’s probably a little of both, but I’d expect more weight to the Fair Weather Fan aspect.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 27, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
Yup, bandwagoers
They’ll be jumping off at 1901 W. Madison St if a certain defending champion can’t make the playoffs this season. And that SRO streak of well over 100 games will go bye-bye next season.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
Agree with the OP
in wondering how the Cubs will respond to these poor sales. I know Al was frustrated with the whole 10 buck bleacher thing last season, but if this team stinks again, then they might start seriously slashing tickets.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
I think it would be very hard for the Cubs to slash prices
in any large way now. Can they have sales for some April, May & Sept games. sure, but I don’t see them cutting back on the $81 bleacher tickets for the Premium games and so on. First I don’t think they could do it enough to make a big difference now and second the bad feeling from both season ticket holders and anyone who bought tickets ahead would be staggering. They made their bed and they will pretty much have to lie in it. Next year I expect some major changes.
The frustrating thing is that it is not like you could not se this coming. The marketing guys are simply idiots, who are selling like it is 2007.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
Strangely enough
I agree with every word of this. Well, except for the word “idiots”, which you could have done without.
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When you are attempting to describe
a collective group of individuals whose primary attribute is that they tend to do idiotic things, what word would you use?
There's no need for namecalling.
She could have said “the marketing people are selling like it’s 2007, which is just plain wrong.”
Says the same thing without namecalling.
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Sorry but I think this word was completely appropriate
It was not a swear word and descriptive of how I believe the marketing and ticketing people have behaved. Would stupid have been better because I don’t see a big difference.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
No.
Namecalling isn’t allowed here. Has nothing to do with the lack of profanity. You could have said the same thing without calling them “idiots”.
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Again would "stupid" be better?
To me it is the same thing. Their actions were idiotic. I don’t think saying they
were ill informed or mismanaging or something like that would remotely convey how I think they acted. I guess because idiots is a noun which could have been taken as personal, so idiotic would be better but again this is a bit silly (sorry if that goes to far). It was a fair word to use for the actions I was describing.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 9:43 AM CST up reply actions
There is a difference...
… between saying someone’s actions were “stupid” and calling someone “an idiot”.
I trust you can see the difference.
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I think stupidly/idiotically arrogant would be perfect.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
Honestly not much to me.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
I've asked everyone to NOT namecall here.
That includes you. You can label someone’s action “stupid”. You can’t call someone “an idiot”. SImple as that.
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Well to quote the great Forest Gump
“stupid is as stupid does”. Someone doing something stupid or idiotic is the same as being one to me.
I am pretty sure people like MB & HWSNBN, Dusty and others have been called idiots and worse here without anyone raising a stink. I will refrain from using it from now on but I will point out if anyone does the same or similar with anyone else.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Trust me.
I’ve called out plenty of people here.
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Well you had better check down the thread
because somebody said a lot worse than idiot but hey I agreed with it so OK with me.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
Let me try to explain this a different way.
If you had said “the actions of the ticket people were idiotic” I wouldn’t have said a word.
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Splitting hairs
Jessica was nowhere near out of line with her statement. I may not agree with it totally but given her frame of reference, that’s hardly a bad word.
Gotta go with Jessica on this one, Al.
Besides, isn’t a person defined by their actions? Answer is: Yes
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
Not necessarily.
OK, maybe this was a pretty mild version of namecalling. But just because someone does something idiotic in one action, does not make them an “idiot”.
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If a pattern of idiotic behavior is displayed, then it is an appropriate label. The signing of Soriano to his contract was an “idiotic” move. The contracts of Soriano, Fukodome, Zambrano, Bradley, Baker, Jones, Pinella, make him an idiot. Same goes for the marketing dpt. Do you remember the “hey, we’re working on it” gem? The Cubs marketing has never been impressive. Ticket prices have to go up. That is a fact of economics, especially when you have to pay for repair of an aging ballpark you want to try to keep from imploding. But, any sensible marketing executive would look at the absolute mess in New York, with the outrageous prices they tried to charge in their new ballpark, and know that this steep of a raise in prices would lead to a sharp decline in sales.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
by Mister Zero on Feb 27, 2011 11:14 PM CST up reply actions
Here's the deal.
Namecalling is against the site rules. You want to do it, take it somewhere else. It’s that simple.
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Maybe the actions are "idiotic".
That does not make the people “idiots”.
Can you see the difference?
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Um...
I do believe a pattern of idiotic actions or behavior, does indeed allow someone to be defined as an idiot, just as any other prolonged behavior would lead to being labeled as such. It is not really name calling, is is a description of a pattern of actions. Just as calling Milton Bradley a “jerk” would be appropriate because his actions dictate that he is a “jerk” by definition.
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
by Mister Zero on Feb 28, 2011 10:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Just so I am clear...
We are not allowed to call Sean Marshal “tall” or Starlin Castro “young” or Prince Fielder “fat” or Greg Maddux “smart” or Carlos Zambrano “emotionaly imbalenced” as those are all descriptive “names”?
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
by Mister Zero on Mar 1, 2011 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's the deal.
There are site rules. They’re easy to follow. Oddly enough, I run this site so I set them. You don’t.
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Wow
Who is being snarky now?
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
Not me.
I run this site. If you can follow the rules, you are welcome here. Antagonizing the proprietor of the site is not recommended.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
I think some of the 'employees' there
are complete dumbasses. You know like our buddy CK.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
Strangely enough
I agree with you on this. Well, except your criticism on the use of the word “idiots” which I think you could have avoided.
by bheidge on Feb 27, 2011 1:15 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd agree with Doggie Stalker that it will be hard to unravel ticket prices this year
Without crushing die-hard/season ticket fan loyalty and goodwill. I’d equate it to the Groupon effect – sure, you can discount a ticket price 50% to get some new sales at the last minute, but the larger cost will be how fans who paid full price view that discount.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Mar 1, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Well didn't they know ST Holders would be upset about the 10 buck tickets?
And go through with it anyway?
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
They did it in ONE section for a few games
A section which at the time had the smallest percentage of season ticket holders and very, very little presale for the games in question. Trying to rectify charging $81 for a bleacher seat
against the Marlins in July as well as the eleveated prices in the other sections would be al lot harder and lead to a lot more anger.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
No, I don't think they realized people would be upset.
They just did it.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Lower prices in the bleachers for a start
better and more aggressive mini-packages. I think the 6 pack this year was a close as they have gotten to a really good one and they could tweak it a little. Perhaps some food package combos ( NOT the all you can eat thing but something pegged towards the “family of 4” getting to enjoy a game without breaking the bank).
Overall though as mentione the genie is out of the bottle and is not going back. The belief that tickets were hard to get so you better buy them early is likely not coming back.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
I think
they should go with a dynamic model like the Giants use. It would completely undercut the secondary market, the Cubs would always get around market value for their tickets, and season ticket holders would most likely get some kind of discount for buying their tickets in advance (which would incentivize people to keep buying season tickets.
As it stands, if the Cubs don’t start competing in a big way, or if the economy doesn’t rebound, they are going to run low on season ticket holders. Most STH can’t go to every game. If they are going to take a bath on every game they can’t go to, they’re better off just getting rid of their season tickets and only buying tix for the games they go to.
DEJESUS!!!
I agree completely with this.
In terms of dynamic pricing, if that’s done ahead of time and a known thing, then I understand if tickets are cheaper than my season tickets. No problem if the team does poorly and they have to discount. It’s part of the game. If the team does well and tickets are more expensive — well then, I’ve got a bargain, AND playoff tickets.
I think you’re right, too, that they should give STH some sort of discount in this scenario. The Cubs are one of the only teams that doesn’t give their best customers a break.
If the 2011 Cubs don’t show some improvement, they’ll have to do this or they could be suffering a mass exodus of STH next offseason. Even if they do improve, it’s still a good and customer-friendly idea.
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It's already begun.
~90% renewal rate compared to 99%.
The Cubs are well on their way to being no different than any other team. Do well, fill the park. Stink up the joint, and play to a half-full park.
Like you said once a while back, the days of opening the gates and filling the park are over. 1998-2010, RIP.
Which raises the question.
Had they kept prices lower, would they have sold more tickets? Probably. Total ticket revenue might be just as much in this case, but with fewer people in the park, they make less on concessions, etc.
It’ll be interesting to see what the next step is. I may write something about this for the front page soon.
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You should.
Cubs ticket prices are completely out of control.
To give everyone an idea of how bad it really is… in terms of season tickets, the average Bleacher ticket is now $44 before tax. That would be the equivalent of the Bears charging a little over $350 for a 400-level seat at Soldier Field.
The bleacher tickets are pretty much ground zero
for how badly the Cubs miscalculated and got way too greedy. The irony is that theyt had done such a great job over the years in making the bleachers an “in” place, far more valuable than any similar section in the MLB. Personally I will see only half as many games in the bleachers as usual and I never go to either interleague or weekend games, so I was never buying the really desirable games. I can’t justify spending about
$70 to see the Phillies on a Tuesday night let alone $81 to see the Cards on a Friday afternoon.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 6:16 PM CST up reply actions
What do the Bears charge?
Then what is their payroll, and what are their liabilities?
Just win the next game...!
They didn't automatically fill the ballpark most of those years
Especially after losing season
1998 = 2,623,194
Cubs didn’t hit 3MM until 2004.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 26, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions
It didn't really take off until after 2003.
Even in 1999, when the season tanked after June, attendance was up over 1998. Then it dropped in 2000 through 2002, but got a bump in 2003.
They would have hit 3 million in 2003 if not for the final Friday home game, which was sold out, getting rained out and they had to make it up as a regular DH the next day. They only missed 3 million by about 38,000.
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I remember that
Pissed off fans on the news Friday night, and me very happy at a DH on Saturday.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 27, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
They had no choice but to piss off the fans.
There was no way to schedule a split DH on short notice and there were two days left in the season. What else could they have done?
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
I know
luck of the draw there. Just like me today – have to fly to Tampa, FL for work for a week.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on Feb 27, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
And yet some fans thought they were getting the shaft
Even though logically the team would WANT a split DH. I tried to explain that to two or three people on the way out, but they weren’t listening. One guy vehemently told me that the splut DH was the way that they were always scheduled.
People can be . . . interesting when emotional. There is a different word that I associate with the ones that I encountered that day, but I won’t use it in this thread. ;-)
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 27, 2011 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
LOL
You’re right. Thanks for not using that word.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
No problem
Now, I just need someone to tell me what a “splut DH” is . . .
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 27, 2011 7:36 PM CST up reply actions
No wonder they didn't want one.
I’ve never heard of those.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
I also think
they could incorporate a season-ticket holder’s reseller service if they ran a dynamic pricing system. They could allow the season ticket holders to add theiir seats back into the system (for a 10% fee if sold). If the team was doing well and ticket prices went up, STH could sell their un-needed tickets at a profit.
The buyer would buy from the Cubs like they normally would, and the season ticket holder can sell their extra without looking for buyers. The fees that normally go to places like stubhub (where everyone loses, since both buyer and seller have to pay exorbitant fees) go back to the team.
DEJESUS!!!
I suspect MLB won't allow this
I think with stubhub as the official scalper of the MLB teams are not permitting to have any other reselling system for season tickets.
One thing the Cubs should do, but won’t is to set up a roped off area where anyone with extras could sell the at FACE value at the park. Al has mentioned several teams do this, but of course at Wrigley you can be arrested for selling tickets at face or anything else anywhere near the park.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 7:52 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, that's another really good idea.
The Orioles do this, and I believe the Brewers do too. It’s easy to enforce face value — set it up so that once you are in the roped off area, you must go into the park right away after you buy, which keeps people who are just buying to resell out of the picture.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
It won't happen because it would directly compete
with the box office and I can’t see the Cubs allowing that. Again so much for fan friendly.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 9:17 PM CST up reply actions
A roped off area would be a violation of a city ordinance
Ticket sales are banned within some # of feet of Wrigley (and other venues) without a license — for ANY amount — without a license.
I am pretty sure the Cubs could get the council to pass
an exemption since they had the restriction passed however as pointed out they would not do this as it would compete with their own sales.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 5:16 PM CST up reply actions
FYI it appears the City is still suing Stubhub to collect taxes on sales
I found this while googling. I don’t think a decision has been issued but if
anyone knows please post.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1539574.html
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 5:21 PM CST up reply actions
This is called "papering the house" or "dressing the house"...
… and it’s usually done by Broadway shows in preview who don’t want to be reviewed with a half-empty house and give the reviewer the impression that the show wasn’t in demand.
I’ve had to do it for events where the perception of “cool” is important – think teen and pre-teen bands like Fall Out Boy in the waning days of their popularity who don’t want their paying fans to turn around mid show, see the 200 and 300 levels empty, and go “damn, these guys aren’t COOL anymore!”.
Why the cubs felt the need to go there is beyond me, unless they realized the inventory was going to sit unused no matter, and they’d be better off selling some of those tasty new burgers somehow…
٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶ Dum spiro spero... | Twitter: @andrewjstone.
by AndrewJStone on Feb 27, 2011 9:37 AM CST up reply actions
Got lucky with bleacher season tix
I sold almost all the games I wouldnt be attending this year sans 3-4 games. I sold early, because I had a feeling sales would be down form years past. Its hard to sell tix now for most games on stubhub, unless they are BELOW face, because few games have sold out!
I have noticed that my terrace seats go for as much or more than bleachers on stubhub
despite having a face value of about 25% less.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions
Go for as in actual sales and not just listings?
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
Well they have been selling
There is little doubt tha decent Terrace Reserves will sell for as much or more than bleachers for the same games despite costing less. This actually started last year.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
The sky's not falling...
In spite of the economy and a possible down year for the team I’d bet they hit 3 million again – and maybe the ‘idiots’ plan is to do what they can to cripple the secondary market.
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 26, 2011 4:01 PM CST reply actions
Clearly, they have taken a big bite out of the secondary market.
But if the tickets stay unsold — because in the past they were bought by brokers — they’ve kind of defeated the purpose.
I still think they should try the dynamic pricing system the Giants use, and the White Sox tried on a limited basis.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
opps, just saw this
and posted the same thing above.
DEJESUS!!!
That is a primary objective
The secondary market.
This whole argument of number of [perceived] ticket sales this year versus some other arbitrary year is a moot point unless one has access to the ledger sheets.
There’s some folks here – one sometimes called “sweetheart” – that cite things as if they were fact, when truly no one knows what the revenue is for ticket sales. We’re a whole 36 hrs into single game sales and there’s already the “they’re not gonna make 3M tickets” comments.
We will not know the true affect on the ticket prices until the Cubs either start putting together 100-win seasons or fall so flat on their faces, they resemble the O’s.
Just win the next game...!
yep - by my reckoning the sky has fallen at least a dozen times since yesterday
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Saw that 'idiots' comment above
How dare those ‘idiots’ do their job in trying to make money. Those damned greedy marketers and accountants….!
They crippled the secondary market. Now its a matter if they increased their overall revenue and their overall margin. But some folks here simply do not understand that. They want “fan friendly” which is simple terms for cheaper overall prices, be damned that PnL statement.
Just win the next game...!
Can you think of a highly successful sports team, concert, show. etc
that would not actually want a healthy secondary market? It is a sign that you have a highly desirable product that people with the money can pay even more, however raising prices for all your tickets to the point that there is no secondary market is a clear sign your product is no longer valuable. There are not 40,000 people willing to pay premium prices for every game.
Of course I don’t have access to the Cubs revenues , but successful teams don’t lose a quarter of a million fans over two seasons and do better. What I was warning about for over a year was that the Cubs would lose the the crucial image or belief or whatever you want to call it that nearly all the games would sell out which is why fans rushed to buy tickets as soon as they went on sale. This was the key to their success for the last decade and it is clearly gone. For the record the Cubs did not in fact raise prices by much this year, they just shifted the pricing in a typically ill thought out way. They made the summer games ungodly expensive while making the less desirable games cheaper. It killed off a lot of sales to the previously easy sellouts (Cards in August) and won’t do anything to increase sales to the D’Backs in April. Good luck increasing revenue with this. You think ticket sales will be up this year because that is the only way revenues will increase. The dip in sales so far is pretty staggering and nothing short of a very, very , very good start and staying at the top for the entire season can really increase sales. Now it maybe a good incentive to win, but I don’t think that is what the marketing people had in mind.
I am sure Wally and company will put a nice spin on it ( kind of like when he said the Convention sales were good because they sold more “individual” tickets though this was because the hotel package tanks and they never sold out period) you will eat it up because after all you can trust him, he has access to the ledgers and would never say anything that was not true.
P.S. Normally I hate to make any bets “against” the Cubs but since I believe April and May will be so far off that they have really no chance of making 3 million fans I am happy to bet with Ballhawks and Blackhawks on this, I mean after all it is only 36 hours into sales and you seem convinced everything is just a big exaggeration. So pick what you like to bet on that.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 12:21 AM CST up reply actions
Lou's gone.
Now that the team will be markedly better, I think the Cubs pass 3,000,000 easily.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
This has nothing to do with Lou
Seriously Shoemile if you look at the numbers the odds of the Cubs making 3.000.000 even with a good season are bleak. Ticket sales tend to reflect the previous year because people don’t buy the early games in particular. It is very clear ticket sales are way off so far and that is very unlikely to change for many weeks into the season even if the Cubs do well and right now they have a whopping margin of 62,000 to keep from slipping under 3 million Vs last year.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 9:22 AM CST up reply actions
No successful team would ever admit that; bad business PR
A healthy secondary market means their pricing is lower than what margins they could pull if they priced higher. It’s a moving target and one way to combat that is what SF is doing with their pricing structure.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
No it doesn't mean that
The secondary market is smaller and more targeted than the entire ticket base. The Cubs key mistake was thinking that they could try to price 40,000 seats at broker prices, but especially the bleachers. They largely succeeded in wiping out the broker market, but badly damaged their own sales in the process.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
...and therefore we shall then see a correction
if what you state is true. We’ll all find out soon. Stay tuned, could be an interesting summer.
“I have a hunch something very interesting is going to happen in the pork belly market today.” Cue BallHawk…
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
I'll bet that you can't stop complaining about tickets from now until the All-Star Break.
Baseball or a Big Gulp – your choice.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
No but happy to take bet on the actual ticket sales
since you are so convinced I am wrong.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
No, I'm just convinced your constant harping and rambling comments are repetitive and idiotic in nature.
but there are far too many variables involved with estimating ticket sales – weather and cubs performance are the two big ones – to wager a bet.
Besides, as I and blackhawk have tried to explain, ticket “sales” is merely an indicator – ticket “revenue” is the key here. And I’m starting to think ticket revenue isn’t the primary motivator here – I’m beginning to wonder if the Ricketts’ got together and made a conscious decision – “we’re going to bust the brokers”. Or at least put a severe dent in their business. I’m guessing they’re certainly willing to take a hit on ticket sales if it means putting the brokers out of business. And maybe even ticket revenue in the short term, if they can make it up in the long term.
Again, if the Cubs sign Pujols, watch the ticket frrenzy resume and the cash registers go cha-ching – ticket sales AND ticket revenue.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Ricketts could care less
Ricketts could care less if brokers are buying his tickets, as long as SOMEBODY is buying up these tickets.
Ricketts is trying to make up the money he spent on the team as fast as possible. That’s why ticket prices have been jacked up! If 3mil people buy tix this year, that’s more money for him to recoup on the money spent and owed on the team. Remember, an owner of a business, regardless of how big or small it is, is in it to make money. He bought the Cubs hoping to make money first, and win second.
I think EVERY sports owner is like that for the most part. I also dont buy the notion of every cent made is put back into the team. I’m sure the “family” gets a paycheck as well, and so they should.
However, if the team “only” draws 2.5 mil this year, then their strategy needs to be thought out better for next season.
IF they can get Pujols , then tix prices will be even higher, but people will most likely pay to see Albert. However, if the team tanks this year, and say they sign Fielder in the offseason, then they better NOT raise prices any higher than they are now.
This weekends ticket sales has been a disaster for the team compared to the last 10 or so years. Thousands of tix available for nearly EVERY game.
re: brokers, I think what caught the Ricketts' eyes - especially Papa Joe's...
…is this notion that there are a bunch of people making a lot of money off of their product and the Cubs aren’t seeing a dime of it.
Kinda like the rooftops. Back when it was just the people who lived in those buildings, lawn chairs and coolers – no big deal. But when it got to be a big business, actual bleachers, catering, party suites and upwards to $150 a head, and the Cubs weren’t seeing a dime of it – well, that’s when the screens went up, the lawyers got busy and eventually the “17% solution” was arrived at.
Fast forward to now, and put yourself in the Ricketts shoes – here’s all these broker types making a killing off of the secondary market and the Ricketts aren’t seeing any of it. That’s not going to sit well with a bunch of red-blooded capitalists. Now, did they cut off their nose to spite the face? That’s the question…
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I would argue yes.
Sure, they’ve killed a lot of the secondary market. But they may have killed a large chunk of the PRIMARY market, too.
I’ll have a lot more to say about this in a post tomorrow morning. Watch for it.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Gee we agree
Yep price it so high the brokers won’t buy and neither will the fans.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:19 PM CST up reply actions
It's leaning that way
but you cannot say for sure yet Al. Total sales is not a 1-to-1 relationship to total revenue. There’s correlation, there’s a relationship but its not 100%.
Again, if they really do knock off too much of the primary market (what ever that REVENUE number is), there will be a correction.
Just win the next game...!
I disagree on the rooftops
The screens went up when they tried to block bleacher expansion. They’d been “stealing cable” for years.
A very unsympathetic group that whined when their free ride was threatened.
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 27, 2011 10:47 PM CST up reply actions
It's the timing I think
I’m pretty sure the screens were put up well before plans to expand bleachers were announced, and such were unrelated events. Shanghai thinks they were connected. I’m guessing Al would know for sure. All I remember is those screens made it hell to catch a baseball out on the street. Took a big chunk of the tracking time out of the equation.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
They were unrelated.
The Cubs were reacting to all the $ the rooftops were getting. Eventually they made a deal with them. The bleacher expansion came later.
The kicker of it is that although the screens hurt ballhawk and the other people trying to catch balls on the street, they did almost nothing to block the views from the rooftops. They weren’t high enough.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Yeah, it was mostly huffing and puffing and a lot of bluster coming from both sides.
I had some friends that lived in the big yellow brick building on corner of Waveland and Kenmore. As you might expect, the view from the 2nd floor windows was significantly impacted, 3rd floor as well though not as much. Rooftop? Not much at all; just blocked a little more of the outfield – which given the defensivie skills on display out there at the time, was probably a good thing.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Well, it wouldn't be the first time that I was wrong
After reading both of your comments, I have to agree. It was earlier — 2003, IIRC.
by Shanghai Badger on Feb 28, 2011 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
No way she goes for that
now if you sweeten the pot a bit or perhaps place a bet on attendance, I’m sure she’d go for it.
Just win the next game...!
I'd rather she just find a new windmill to tilt at - this is getting old.
we all know her thoughts on the matter and until the season plays out and/or we somehow get wind of revenue numbers or other factual information, not much is going to change.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I would indeed
but Ballhawk won’t put his money where his typing finger is. The bet wouldn’t be settled till the end of the season anyway.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 8:41 AM CST up reply actions
So?
Go make the bet. This would be fun to watch all year.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
You will? Done. Consider the pot sweetened.
I’ve combined the two bets into one. Here it is:
I bet that you can’t stop complaining about ticket sales and/or attendance from now until the All-Star Break and that Cubs season attendance will be over 3M.
Heck, I’d be willing to bet the Cubs attendance will be over 4M just to not read any more kvetching from you on this issue, but let’s keep it realistic.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Here's my guess.
You’re going to win the first part of that bet, and lose the second part.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
A fast start..
..say 20-10, would be a godsend for these owners. Tickets would be gobbled up at a fast rate then.
"I think part of a best friend's job should be to immediately clear your computer history if you die." - Anonymous
Maybe Kenney & Hayword screwed up the ticket sales on purpose
With the high prices and bad marketing they were hoping to light a fire under Ricketts & Hendry to do whatever it takes to win and fill the seats. It is all a nefarious plot to force the Cubs to sign Pujols after ticket sales fall well under 3,000,000 and concession sales tank with swaths of empty seats.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 6:20 PM CST up reply actions
We can only
hope Ricketts responds to poor attendance by spending more money to produce a contender. I saw some comment by him that suggested otherwise (something to the effect of, if attendance is good, we’ll have money to make a mid-season addition—NOT that if the team was in contention he’d authorize money to put them over the top).
Unfortunately, the bottom line seems to be the bottom line with him. Not winning.
DEJESUS!!!
Even I don't give them that much credit, but just remember this...
Regardless of what happens this year, if Cubs sign Pujols, ticket sales will increase dramatically and all of those tickets sold will be at the current high price level, which of course means mucho revenue.
What – you were expecting “As Time Goes By”?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
well under 3 million??
I’m predicting 3 million -
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 26, 2011 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
It will be very difficult for the Cubs to make 3 million without a very, very fast start
Last year they drew roughly 3,062,000. I can’t imagine how they will not be down in attendance in April & May with ticket sales so clearly off from last year. This means in order just to match last year and get over 3 million they will have to have to sell out nearly every game from June-Sept and I think that is pretty unlikely. The absolute key to the Cubs success over the past 10-12 years has been selling a huge number of tickets before the first game was played and that simply won’t happen this year so very good play and very good weather will be needed to get to 3 million.
Since winning big is the only way they can get to 3 million I very much hope your prediction comes through.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 26, 2011 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
I'm just trying to get your prediction
well under 3 million = ?
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 26, 2011 9:30 PM CST up reply actions
I would say 2.9 or less
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 12:22 AM CST up reply actions
pulling a number out of my arse
like others are doing (a whole 36hrs into the single ticket sales), I’ll RD a 2.895M season attendance.
Just win the next game...!
I'm just trying to get an actual number from the doomsayers
cause it seems like a year ago the same dire predictions were being made and then lo and behold 3 million tickets ended up being sold -
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 26, 2011 9:56 PM CST up reply actions
doomsayers don't like to be tied down to predictions
they just like spreading doom
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I pulled a number out of my ass, so too can others
In the meeting setting type at work I call that “Rectally Derived” or simply RD’d.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
reminds me of one of my favorite Dilberts...
…after the usual strip, the last frame has Dogbert wearing one of those reflector headbands that doctors used to have and he says…
“…and next week, a proctologist shows us where sales projections come from.”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I put that up in our marketing depts' cork board
the day after they announced product sales forecast.
Just win the next game...!
Look, last year was not good
not good from a PR perspective and they misjudged, badly. I believe they could miss it worse this year but its only a hunch and I do not have the data to support it yet. The team needs to get out of the gate well; 10 games over .500 by Memorial Day, or it could be rough.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
So after 36 hours you are willing to admit they will be down by 160,000?
I thought you believed everything was great. FYI that would be the lowest attendence since 2003
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 12:24 AM CST up reply actions
So 160,000 - or about a 5% drop
is all it would take to prove the end has arrived? FYI 160,000 less would have dropped the Cubs from 7th to 9th in overall attendance for the past year -
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 27, 2011 7:40 AM CST up reply actions
with higher ticket prices the change in overall ticket
revenue isn’t as significant – and as for the concessions loss that remains to be seen – as the ‘swaths of empty seats’ last year represented a lot of tickets that had been sold but not used – if the people buying them this year are buying for themselves, rather than for brokerage purposes – then it seems more likely (than last year) those seats will be filled -
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 27, 2011 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
Again, it depends on how the team does.
If they start winning early, people will start buying tickets (and concessions, etc).
If not, I could see some of the summer games that used to routinely sell out, have crowds only in the low 30,000 range, which would be a 15-20% drop.
Remains to be seen.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
15-20% drop would
translate to a total in the 2,450,000 – 2,600,000 range – if it ends up there I’ll admit that the sky has fallen (and that Wally and Crane are responsible for it – plus global warming)! 2,900,000 and a 5% drop – and the team is under/near .500 and not in the race during the summer – then not so much..
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 27, 2011 8:17 AM CST up reply actions
If the Cubs are out of it at the AS break
it won’t matter who people bought tickets from many will stay home. I can tell you that a lot of season ticket holders I know just ate their tickets last year since the market sucked so bad to sell them at the end. It also important to note that the food/drink etc not sold costs the Cubs twice as much as every dollar spend on a ticket because they don’t split the revenue.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
But may not affect the bottom line nearly as much
likely not at all.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
160.000 combined with the previous drop of 250,000
would be a drop of over 400,000 in three yeas and yes that would be a huge disaster. Again the Cubs count on filling the seats with people and people buying things. How do you think all the companies the Cubs market to will feel about
a team with a declining fan base. It has a domino effect on everything the Cubs do and the crucial image they have projected of a team whose fans are so loyal and dedicated theye fill up the park for nearly ever game.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
so if a 5% drop this year is a 'huge disaster'
then the 15-20% drop would be considered a what? A catastrophe of biblical proportions? A sign that the end of times is upon us?
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 27, 2011 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
and the arrival of the 4 horsemen
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
?
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
That was Al not me but hell yes if they dropped 15%-20%
it would be a truly epic failure. I don’t think that is even possible though with the large season ticket base.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
Not in the NL
and not with the Cubs as you cite. In the AL?? You bet. Since they count fannies in the seats, not tickets sold for attendance announcements.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
Um they changed that about 10 years ago
Both NL & AL report only tickets sold not if they were used
You might want to update your fact sheet.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
Jessica is correct.
The AL has announced tickets sold since around the mid 1980s (not sure of the exact year).
The NL switched in 1993. Check the Cubs attendance figures, it shows a huge jump that year.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
That's what pulling out of my arse means
It’s just that, a wild guess. There’s simply not enough info to predict yet. Sure its a not so good start but we just.do.not.know.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
No thats what seeing a DRAMATIC decline in sales is
Again the key to Cubs success for the last decade plus is selling tickets BEFORE the season starts. Ironically Al made just your arguement after the fist day of sales last year and said everything would be fine and I was jumping the gun. I argued that you can’t recover from slow sales unless the team and the weather are very, very good.
Seeing large numbers of Opening Day Bleachers for sale days after they became available and a Convention that did not sell out are not pulling things out of anyone’s ass. These are events that sold out in a few hours or less for many years. How much more evidence do you want of dropping sales?
You yourself are predicting a 5% drop in sales and since season tickets account for at least 2/3rd of tickets at Wrigley that is actually over a 15% drop in sales of tickets available to the general public which is huge.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not giving any formal prediction
I simply pulled a number out of my arse for the sake of discussion.
The last several years (post 2003) were predicated on the “they were so close” phenomina. Overly optimistic people “hoping and praying” for the best.
Because the NL counts tickets sold for their attendance numbers instead of fannies in the seats, some seasons looked inflated. Do you really think they truly drew 3M in 2006? or 3M in 2010?
It’s now more cautious buyers, many factors involved including the prices. If the team starts well and stays close thru the ASB and to the NWT deadline, they will surpass 3M. But the odds are against them. We will have to see.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Both leagues count tickets sold and have for 20 years...
… more in the case of the AL.
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Can't seem to remember that being changed
What do you mean by “…more in the case of the AL.”?
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
More years.
The AL started doing it in the late 80s — not sure the exact year. The NL, in 1993.
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Again they have to start out very, very fast
have good weather and stay at the top for the entire season to make 3 million because there is little doubt sort of some amazing ticket giveaway they will not be down in April and May.
The Cubs were able to maintain the concept of tickets being hard to get for
a lot longer then 2004 etc. Again many, many games were sold out by this time for I would say at least 12 years. Image matters here and they have lost it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
Not 12 years.
Since 2004, for sure. The 1998-2003 period, a bit less so. But tickets sold faster for those games because they were cheaper.
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They lost quite a bit that way
and they may not draw the 3M often-discussed number. Next is the revenue. Don’t think any of us knows that.
Do the increased prices offset, say a 250k lower attendance + lost concessions? Or only 100k, or maybe as high as 400k? We don’t know that. And that is what is most important, revenue + margin.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
They lost quite what way?
By selling more on the first day of sales?
One crucial factor here is also that they have over 150,000 extra seats to sell in the bleachers since the expansion in 2006. That has masked some of the decline as the percentage of seats sold has declined more in the last two years than the actual number of seats sold.
In general the I find the justification of "fewer, better, richer" Cub fans a poor defense for bad marketing and declining sales.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
Image was lost
Everything changed (some would say for the worse) since those fateful Oct, 2003 evenings.
Cubs are in a fishbowl more similar to the Yankees since. Lot’s of attention.
Which is why total revenue and margin are the most important things; not just surpassing 3M in ticket sales. It’s not like hockey where the teams greatest revenue generator is ticket sales. Filling to capacity is far more important to the ‘Hawks than the Cubs. It’s why they hired Johnny away from the Cubs. They don’t have TV like the Cubs, they need that 108% they’ve averaged going on 3 years now.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Cubs had great sales after 2003
They had virtual sell outs for the next 5 years so i am not exactly getting your point. Again you seem convinced that the marketing folks did a great job eliminating the broker market and driving ticket sales down with high prices and poor marketing because the higher prices will offset the continuing decline in sales. I strongly disagree. They can’t rely on the rich fans when the team is poor and sales go down and down.
Screwing the most loyal fan base in the country was bad
marketing and unless Hendry and Quade pull a rabbit out of hat, there are going to be a lot of unsold & empty seats
that badly planned price SHIFTING ( again they really did not raise prices much this year) will cover.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
help me fill in some blanks
5% drop is a ‘huge disaster’
15-20% is a ‘truly epic failure’
0-5% = ?
5-10% = ?
even or increased % = ?
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 27, 2011 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
First two you got
anything under 3% a huge, huge win
3-5% drop pretty damn good.
An increase would be a miracle.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
thanks!
look forward to the day(s) these milestones are reached – or on September 22nd – so we can re-visit and/or re-ignite this discussion!
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 27, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
Actually got to revise that 2nd one
For some reason someone said last years drop was 5% when it was actually about 2% and I wasn’t thinking. I would say a drop of 3-5% is in fact bad as it could be twice as much as last year.
Also it is VERY important that each of these amounts should be tripled in terms of what the actually represent to the ticket office. Again with 2/3rds of Cub tickets being sold to season ticket holders that leaves only 1/3rd that these guys actually have to work to sell so a 2% drop in sales is in fact a 6% drop in the amount of tickets these guys are paid to sell.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
Huh?
‘as bad as it could be twice as much as last year"?? I think I’ve still got it though –
0% change or increase = a ‘miracle’
0-3% drop = ‘ a huge, huge win’
3-5% drop = ’as bad as it could be twice as much as last year’
5% drop = ‘huge disaster’
5-10% drop = ?
10-15% drop = ?
15-20% drop = is a ‘truly epic failure’
(and each of these numbers has to be tripled)
by doofus cubs guy on Feb 27, 2011 7:28 PM CST up reply actions
2006 was an abject disaster
from an empty seat standpoint. They then went out and spent $300M on players and another high-profile manager.
I do think it’s good to leverage the market and take a good portion of secondary sales. If they overprice and sales go way south (e.g. 500k less) then there will be a correction.
But you’re hung up on ticket sales volume because that’s all you can measure for your argument.
It’s net revenue and net margin that counts. You can’t measure that, only the Cubs brass can do that. And here inlies the issue with your argument. Ticket sales volume is only a portion of the total picture.
I have this all the time with my new engineers in the reliability world. Trying to find the deep issues instead of the surface issues. It’s not easy and sometimes the facts are hidden. In this case, we don’t have the data on the Cubs revenue and margin.
I liken this to the drunk that stumbles out a bar late at night. He drops his keys but only looks for them under the street lights. Because that’s the easiest area to see. The analogy here is ticket sales volume is the easiest thing to see.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
The other factor that has changed since 2008...
…. is the economy, which still has not recovered. If we didn’t have this severe recession, more tickets would have sold even at these high preices.
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You betcha
and I thought back in late 2008 that we’d start seeing the turn this year. Oh how I wish I were right, turns out I think I missed by at least 18 months.
If the Cubs don’t start out with say a 10 games over .500 by about Memorial Day, Ricketts could be facing a notable downturn (>15%).
Just win the next game...!
yikes...!
That’s an 8-figure boo-boo you’re talking about.
Or perhaps I missed the sarcasm sign.
Just win the next game...!
Yes I did not use the sarcasm font
My bad. I assure you I would not give Kenney or Hayword the credit for that level of
planning.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 12:31 AM CST up reply actions
Nope but I still think he's a jackass
and one big scary reason why I’m not overly impressed with Ricketts’ judgement.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
Look something we agree on.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
There's just some folks that don't impress me
in that business. He’s one, Michael McCaskey is another…
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
Funny I agree on that too
A key reason I refused to root for the Bears in the Super Bowl many moons ago.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
1985??
Even I had to overlook that side back then. Being a defencive-oriented guy in pretty much any sport, that team was just utterly amazing.
Just win the next game...!
.667 ???
Pretty impressive.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
Not really.
The 1975 Cubs started 20-10. They finished exactly where last year’s team did — 75-87.
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Not talking about finishing seasons as much as what
a fast start can do for this season’s overall sales. Yeah 20-10 is nice and ‘75 ended poorly, but my nightmare 70’s season was probably ’77.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
Yep.
’77 — how could they have not finished over .500 at least?
And they had to lose their last five games to not do that.
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'77
I believe that Lou Boudreau commented when the Cubs won a game to go to 49-24, “The Cubs will never see .550 again this year.” Not a good prediction from the “Good Kid”.
It was when they went to 47-22 by winning a game in Montreal.
Yes, he said that. I remember it very well.
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This is the traumatic experience of my childhood
and where the 77 on my handle comes from.
Jerry Morales and Bruce Sutter got hurt. The rest of the team came back to earth.
by Josh Timmers on Feb 28, 2011 12:44 AM CST up reply actions
The performance of Bobby Murcer that year...
… was completely inexplicable, unless he too was hurt.
On August 19, having played 120 games, he was hitting .280/.375/.489 with 24 HR and 83 RBI. In that lower-offense era, that was quite good — seemingly on his way to a 30/100 season.
The rest of the way, playing in 35 games — not a small sample size — he hit .204/.269/.315 with 3 HR and 6 RBI. Yes, six. It was if he had forgotten how to hit.
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I don't know, I just don't know
My Dad tried to explain away and refused to admit any injuries could have forced them to fall that far.
Just win the next game...!
I haven't bought any tickets yet this year
though two years ago I went to 36 games and last year to 8, two of which I did not pay for. Too expensive and the product offered for sale this year is questionable. I can’t believe that as of last night they still were selling 12 seats together in UD Infield for the Cards Tuesday night May game. Empty seats in June and July will really show the dire straits the Cubs are in. However, I kind of like the idea that I’ll be able to roll up to just about any game this year and get in without paying those extra, ridiculous fees.
NEXT year is THE year!
I hope the doomsayers are correct
I didn’t buy a ticket yesterday. I have bought 30+ every year since 2006. Hopefully I will be able to snag some of these overpriced tickets for below-face value in June and July.
You will, UNLESS...
… the team starts winning, in which case these tickets will probably sell. But that’s a huge chance the team is taking.
Essentially, they’re selling tickets like they’re the Red Sox, with a decade of sustained success. You can do that when you win, but the winning has to come first.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
The Cubs management haven't figured it out yet
Winning team = high ticket sales = more $$$! I’m local to Philadelphia but every Phillies game is just about sold out this season. I wonder why?
I’m bought tickets from the VWR every year since 2002. I haven’t in the past 2 years. I got laid off from my job last February. I have another job now but why would I take the time to get tickets like I did in the past. I’m fortunate to work for a company that gives me a lot of vacation days. Doesn’t pay as well as my previous job, but a job is a job.
I’m planning on a trip to Chicago on Labor Day weekend since my company gives me extra days off around federal holidays. I don’t have to take any personal vacation days for it. I’m shocked but not surprised that I can get just about any seat I want for the Pirates series that weekend.
The Ricketts better wake up! With the economy and the team’s performance over the past few years, they aren’t going to get the fans to show up like they did in the past. They have to put a winning team or a team that looks like they have a chance to win on field.
The bottom line is if the Cubs were a competitive team in 2011, people would pay the money for the product. The Cubs are charging Yankees and Red Sox $$$ for tickets but do you really think Cubs fans will get the same return as the fans of those two teams?
On a different topic, how 'bout your Flyers this season?
You’re gonna have 2 ex-Stanley Cup Champion Blackhawks help you guys to your first title since ’75.
B’s & Leafs fans will be pissed but Philly should go absolutely ape-shit in 3.5 months.
Just win the next game...!
by blackhawk24 on Feb 27, 2011 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
This is why the people who think the Cubs should "rebuild"
and take a pass on even trying to be competitive this season are mistaken. I suspect had the Cubs not signed Pena and not traded for Garza, the ticket numbers would be even worse.
The days of simply throwing open the gates and expecting fans to flock in are over, and I think that’s a good thing.
As for myself, I cannot justify spending $80-something dollars for a bleacher seat at Wrigley when I can sit in the outfield at Miller Park for $30. The drive to Milwaukee from Peoria is about the same as the drive to Wrigley, I can park right by the door and have a much more comfortable experience.
I was looking through some old ticket stubs recently and found one for a Cubs-Cardinals game I attended at Wrigley in 1997. The price? $6. So the price had doubled from what it was in, say, 1975, but in 14 years the price had increased more than 10-fold.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Feb 27, 2011 1:35 PM CST reply actions
What section was that $6 stub from '97 in?
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
Could have been bleachers.
There were some $6 bleacher dates as late as 2001.
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Bleachers
Exactly right, Al. I forgot to put that in my post.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Feb 28, 2011 1:57 AM CST up reply actions
Bleacher Tix from '91 or '92
I found a charge slip last summer from ’91 or ’92. I bought 4 bleacher tickets for 8 different games for $5 each. The total for 32 tickets was $160. No convenience fees, no order charges, no taxes and no amusement fees.
I assume you bought either at box office or by mail?
Heck I have some old Ladies Day stubs. $1.00 for a BOX seat in the early 80s. Hard to beat that.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 27, 2011 10:21 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
So what's the biggest reason that tickets aren't selling?
Bad team, or high prices? I understand that it’s a combination of both, but what’s the ratio? 60/40? 75/25?
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
I'd say probably 70/30 Bad Team to High Price Ratio
If the Cubs were good, people would find a way to go.
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
I will be even handed on this
1/3rd each to bad team, bad marketing and high prices. Bad team makes it too easy since the Cubshad been very good in the past at filling up the park especially the bleachers when they were bad.If they had a really good team, it would cover up most of the bad marketing and high prices but the genius of the Cubs for a long time was sellling tickets to a bad team.
As I have mentioned a lot, the Cubs were very, very good for a long time in promoting the bleachers as an in place and thus being able to sell tickets at many times the price of any other team for similar seats. However in the last two years in particular they have badly misjudged the value and how to sell the tickets which given their genius in making them big in the fist place is especially frustrating.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
I think the bleacher expansion hurt
the bleacher sales more than poor marketing did. They increased their supply past the demand threshold, creating excess seats and instantly making the bleachers no longer an “in demand” place to sit.
DEJESUS!!!
No the expansion worked fine for the first 3 years
There was plenty of demand. Ironically it was that demand and the scalper prices that appear to have lead to idiotic decision to increase the prices past a sustainable level and
have the very complicated system of multiple pricing now seperating bleacher games from
“the bowl”
FYI Al can confirm this but my bad math shows that while the new extra expensive catagory of games went up 5% for terrace infield seats, they went up 25% for bleachers which is pretty staggering. In any event I think the bleachers were more than capable of sustaining the additional seats if the pricing had not gone sky high and complex.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 1, 2011 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
True to some extent.
They can fill the bleachers easily when the team wins. Now, with the team not so great and the prices very high, it’s a different story.
And you are correct — top tier bleacher games went up about 25%.
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FYI bad math for me
Terrace Infield went up 10% not 5% ( it was $5,00) still much less than the bleachers.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 1, 2011 8:52 AM CST up reply actions
Does the ratio even matter?
Both are equally killing them.
Charging Yankees prices for Royals performance is a joke.
I'd say probably 70/30 Bad Team to High Price Ratio
If the Cubs were good, people would find a way to go.
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.

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