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Why The Cubs Risk Thousands Of Empty Seats This Season... And How To Fix It

Gulls invade the bleachers in right field during the 11th inning of a game between the Chicago Cubs and the Houston Astros at Wrigley Field in Chicago Illinois. The Astros defeated the Cubs 4-3 in 12 innings. (Photo by Jonathan Daniel/Getty Images)

We've had quite a bit of discussion on this site about the Cubs' ticket pricing policy for this season, which saw bleacher ticket prices for certain games raised to over $80 ($100 if you bought them through the premium presale), an extra pricing tier added to give five tiers of games, pricing tiers split differently for bleachers and what the team is calling the "bowl" (but the rest of us still term the "grandstand"), and an increase in the number of value dates from seven to 15.

The result of all of this was a much smaller number of tickets sold on the first day of single-game sales on Friday. Checking the CubWorld Live Camera on Sunday a number of times, there was no one in line to buy tickets even though the windows were open.

As of Sunday afternoon, the following games were completely sold out:

June 17, June 18, June 19

And, the following games were sold out of bleacher tickets (in addition to the above):

April 1, May 14, July 1, July 2, July 3

It took more than a day to sell out bleachers for Opening Day, one of the "marquee" games priced at $81. In fact, some of those dates are still available in the bleachers if you buy the six-packs still offered on the Cubs website. In past years those tickets were sold out within an hour of the on-sale time. The same was the case for most summer Saturdays as well as other weekend dates. Compare those numbers to this comment I posted in the VWR thread on the first day of sales in 2008:

23 dates are sold out:

March 31, April 21, May 10, 17, 31 , June 1, 20, 21, 22, July 12, 13, 26, 27, August 2, 8, 9, 10, 23, 30, 31, Sept 19, 20, 21

Also in that comment, I noted that 42 games had bleacher tickets available, which means that 39 dates (the 23 noted plus 16 others) were completely sold out of bleacher tickets on the first day of sales (through 5:10 p.m., when I posted that comment) in 2008, coming off a division title year and before the economy tanked. In 2008, the Cubs had 49 bleacher dates priced at $45, 25 dates at $36 and 7 dates at $22.

While sales of all ticket levels are down somewhat -- you can still get good field boxes for nearly every non-weekend game -- this post will focus mostly on bleacher tickets, for which sales appear to be way down. Prices have increased -- three years later, 49 games are priced higher than the 2008 top price of $45 (and many are significantly higher), 17 games are priced approximately at the $36 level, and 15 games are approximately $22.

So the Cubs have increased the number of "value" games, but other dates are either at or far above 2008 levels. After the jump, more analysis of this and how it may affect attendance, and what the Cubs can and should do to increase their chances of selling more bleacher tickets.

Star-divide

It's true that there are now more inexpensive games -- inexpensive being, of course, a relative term -- in the bleachers than there were last year. There are 15 games that are priced at $22, compared to seven last year. All of these games are in April, late August and September. While the August and September games will likely sell a fair number of tickets, presuming the weather stays good, the April games will be a tough sell. An even tougher sell will be some of the weekday and weeknight games in May, only two of which are the $36 price; the rest of those are $47 (gold price) or $65 (platinum price -- all of these are rounded to the nearest dollar).

Based on a quick look through various dates I did on Sunday, there are literally thousands of tickets left for almost all of these dates. These tickets will be a very tough sell unless:

  • the weather is nearly perfect, and
  • the team is playing well and in early contention.

Neither one of those scenarios, obviously, is guaranteed. What will be even more difficult for the Cubs to sell out are the eight "marquee" bleacher dates that aren't already sold out. Opening Day took far longer than it has in past years, and again, unless the Cubs are in contention midseason, Saturday games against the Reds, Marlins and Astros will be a tough sell. Yes, they may eventually sell out, and in making these dates "marquee" dates, the Cubs have eliminated a lot of the secondary market. But they may have also killed some of the primary market by pricing these tickets and choosing these dates based on outdated information. Sure, sales and prices may have been this way in 2007 and 2008 -- but that was with a team going well and an economy that wasn't struggling.

Here are some suggestions -- some of which I've made before -- on how to fix this problem and blunt the criticism that the team is getting.

Change the pricing tiers. Looking at this year's schedule, there aren't 13 "marquee" games. There are six: Opening Day, the Yankee series, and the Saturday games in the Cardinals and White Sox series. Without an opponent like the Yankees next year, there might only be three such dates (or four, if the Cardinals are in on two weekends). That's it -- the rest of the games designated as "marquee" really aren't. The split should be more along these lines: six marquee games (as above), 17 platinum games (the other summer weekends), 17 gold dates (non summer weekends), 20 silver dates (most weekdays in summer) and 21 value dates (weekdays in April, May & September). That would make several games much more affordable -- 41 in the two lowest tiers instead of 32 -- and be a much better reflection of actual attendance patterns in 2011, instead of basing it on how things used to work three or four years ago. For reference, here's the 2011 Cubs seating and pricing chart.

Adopt the dynamic pricing system used by the San Francisco Giants. This way, if the Cubs played well and contended in the summer, they could charge much higher prices for many summer dates -- more than they have even now. Also, they could discount early-season or bad-weather dates in order to sell tickets for some dollars rather than no dollars. Last year, I complained about a deep discount given for some bleacher tickets -- but a dynamic pricing system is different, because you would know this ahead of time; the STH might wind up paying more for some games, but if the team does well, STH would wind up paying less. In doing such a system, season ticket holders should be given some sort of discount off their tickets ahead of the single game sale -- even $1 or $2 per ticket would be a nice gesture, and STH still get playoff privileges. This would make it fairer for everyone.

Stop splitting out the entertainment tax. It's now very clear what the reason for doing this the last couple of years is -- the proposal to use a portion of this tax to finance Wrigley improvements. Whether you agree with that or not, and this post isn't about that, adding such a large chunk of what the customer actually pays to the base price is misleading. If you go to the Cubs website and call up a bleacher ticket for a marquee date, the price listed is $72. But by the time you get past the entertainment tax and the various online fees, the price is $89.55 -- plus another $2.50 if you want to print at home (a complete ripoff, charging you to use your own paper and ink). So that $72 ticket really costs you $92.05 -- 28% over the base price. This is the reason people hate airline pricing with all the added taxes and fees. Just tell us what we have to pay.

At the Cubs convention, team president Crane Kenney basically told us that the higher-priced tickets were "subsidizing" the lower-priced games. But they can't do that if there are too many games priced that way and those tickets don't sell. It's a tough call. We all realize that the Cubs have to generate revenue to put forth the kind of baseball payroll that will put a winning team on the field, and that -- at least right now -- the Cubs don't have the kinds of revenue sources that some other teams have (Jumbotrons, team-run TV networks) that could put the lid on some of these price increases. The price of my bleacher season ticket has almost doubled since 2003. Payroll has gone up considerably since then, too.

But there is a perception that the Cubs are selling tickets at Red Sox or Yankees price levels without the decade-plus of sustained success that those teams have had on the field. If the Cubs had multiple World Series wins in the last decade, I don't think any of us would complain about ticket prices at these levels. Until that happens, the Cubs risk a large number of empty seats this year -- changing the perception of a Cubs ticket as "hard-to-get", and perhaps keeping that spiraling downward.

The dynamic pricing system would help. So would winning. Let's hope this is one of those out-of-nowhere winning years. That would be a great thing for everyone.

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Comments

Display:

I didn't realize

how insanely expensive bleacher tickets could be this year. That’s mind boggling.

by Harry Pavlidis on Feb 28, 2011 8:04 AM CST reply actions  

For some games, yes, they are.

The total season ticket package was pretty much the same as last year’s, down $15 (the price of two beers, as some called it). But for certain games, the individual price is way up.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 8:06 AM CST up reply actions  

I was out in LA and went to the Bulls/Clippers game and it was at Staples Center that

I encountered the $12.00 beer. Rarely have I savored each drop of of a drink more.

by the nth on Feb 28, 2011 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Beer & food prices going up this year, too.

Drafts + $0.25
“Imports” +$0.50
Dogs (vienna beef, not ballpark) + $0.50
Bison dogs +$1.00

Peanuts stayed the same.

In my 9 years, this has been the annual norm.

Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.

by section229beer on Feb 28, 2011 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Just curious, where do you find this stuff?

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

I don’t know if I mentioned it here, but Tom Ricketts pays the same price as everybody else.

At the Northwestern game, he bought a Guinness from us near the end. My partner Joe elbows me and says, “Whadda we do? Do we charge him?” I says, “I dunno. Ask him. He’ll probably get a kick outta that.” So Joe says to Mr. Ricketts, “Are we supposed to charge you for this or what?” Although he didn’t see the humor in it, Tom says, " Yeah. I’ve got this thing (a managers card for VIP comps), but you don’t take these. I got cash." And he gave us a nice, average tip, taboot. He then hung out in front of our booth for ~30 minutes, talking with his friends and passers-by.

I was one of the top three moments in my Wrigley career. Thanks Ricketts.

Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.

by section229beer on Mar 2, 2011 9:28 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Well, that'll be less bison dogs I'll buy, then.

Will probably bring more food from home.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

That'll help me stay on my diet.

"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Feb 28, 2011 3:02 PM CST up reply actions  

and if - by some small miracle - the Cubs decided to drop the price on beer...

…what would that help you stay on? ;-)

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 28, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

The Cubs really had the best of both worlds and, for now, are in danger of blowing it

There are franchises as you mentioned such as the Yankees and Red Sox that can partly justify sky high ticket prices by consistent results, other teams (like the Braves) that also enjoyed years of success and yet had a lukewarm fan response and thus had to keep ticket prices in check, and finally markets with promising young teams (Devil Rays)that demonstrated early success and the potential for more but play in what is frankly just not a baseball town and can’t drag people to their stadium.

The Cubs had a fan base that continued to pay rising ticket prices even when the team was not winning pennants, and demonstrated it would pay even more when the team showed glimpses of success. They clearly pushed too far. This is the first time in 20+ years I didn’t even attempt to buy good tickets when single-game tix went on sale. Now I live in DC and would only come in one weekend a summer to take my kid (and thus there are a lot of connected costs to this trip), but just wasn’t going to commit to the trip at this point. Might still go, who knows, but content to go see them up in Fenway and when they are here in DC 4th of July series.

by BeltwayCubsFan on Feb 28, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Key part of that link
Among the goals of value-based ticket pricing is broadening the ticket-buying fan base, rewarding fans for buying earlier in the season and protecting Season Ticket Holder value. The new structure only affects the sale of tickets to individual games and does not affect the sale of season tickets. The Cardinals’ new system will allow seats in sections that do not include Season Ticket Holders to go as low as $5 for games which have excess inventory for sale.

“Protecting Season Ticket Holder value”. Precisely.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 8:23 AM CST up reply actions  

I didn't think you would be in favor of this.

There has been talk for months about how this team will underachieve and not do well in the regular season. For those games for all of August and September, the price would have to go down due to being out of playoff contention, and you’re left paying more.

I can see if this was in February of 08 or 09 that you would be in favor, but now it seems to me like you wouldn’t benefit.

by RyeNo13 on Feb 28, 2011 9:04 AM CST up reply actions  

Sure I would.

I have season tickets, thus the right to get playoff tickets. That’s the tradeoff.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Really Hope It's Worth the Tradeoff, But...

I can see how the tickets late in the season with a noncontending team would go way down with dynamic pricing. Let’s hope the Cubs win the World Series and the option for your buying NLDS, NLCS, and World Series tickets comes to fruition this season.

2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.

by memphiscub on Feb 28, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

I can see how the tickets late in the season with a noncontending team would go way down with dynamic pricing.

Right. And they’d sell some tickets instead of no tickets.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions  

If you click on the link...

… for that game, it says “limited inventory available”. I think that’s another one you can still get through the six-pack.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 8:25 AM CST up reply actions  

That's true of all the games that are "sold out"

I just clicked on the Saturday Yankee game and it will let me buy a 6-pack. Smart marketing actually. People may not have bought the 6-game packs thinking that they could get single-game tickets. Now they have incentive to buy the packs.

by JSB on Feb 28, 2011 8:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Incentive, IF...

… they want five lesser games to get one good one.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 8:46 AM CST up reply actions  

"one good game"

So now out of 81 home dates, there are only 6 worth going to? I don’t see how you can believe that as a season ticket holder. Do you really object to them selling these 6 packs?

by JSB on Feb 28, 2011 2:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

No, but it's different for me...

… since I go to all the games. Someone who really wants to see the Yankees play the Cubs might not want to be forced to buy a ticket to see the Diamondbacks on a cold April day when they can’t go, just in order to get that Yankee ticket.

Make more sense now?

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Do you not agree it's good marketing?

Or if you are going to go to six games anyways, why not use that to be able to go to a game you really want to go to.

by JSB on Feb 28, 2011 3:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

But you're forced to take five specific dates to get the one you really want.

If you don’t want to go to or can’t go to those specific five dates, you’re probably stuck with the tickets.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 4:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually it is a pretty good package this year

It might not work for an out of towner, but good for anyone in the area.
You are no longer forced to take 5 crappy April/May games to get one really good game. It could be improved, but it is as close to the reflection of a sample of the entire schedule as they have done.
This is one thing I think they have done right but it took a long time to get there. I suspect the much inferior 13 pack did not sell well and I don’t know if they offered this with enough support to do that well but definitely a step in the right direction.It makes perfect sense to leverage the really hot games with others as long as the overall package is not wildly disproportionate as it has been in the past.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 5:28 PM CST up reply actions  

The days are really over for the family of 4 that want to go to a Cub game on a whim....

$320 for 4 bleachers seats is amazing….

But the Cubs are expected to win the division right? So we should have to pay!!!!

by TJ11 on Feb 28, 2011 8:26 AM CST reply actions  

so....

The bleachers are not the correct seating location for a family of 4…. for numerous reasons.

by ferris2001 on Feb 28, 2011 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Some areas are better than others

as is some days vs most nights.

It’s the 4-notes+ it would cost for the whole day.

Guess that’s why [my] family events are Rush & Wolves games; with the exception of perhaps a Stanley Cup Finals game.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on Feb 28, 2011 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Truth to power, Al.

Credit where credit due, that’s a solid piece.

I’ve been pushed out of the ticket-buying universe for a few years now, but I realize that at some level, ticket revenues and team payroll are related. And yeah, paying $92 for a “$72 ticket” wouldn’t sit well with me at all. It will be interesting to see how this season goes – with a diminished scalper market not driving early sales.

by The Deputy Mayor of Rush Street on Feb 28, 2011 8:30 AM CST reply actions  

...
…the STH might wind up paying more for some games, but if the team does well, STH would wind up paying less.

If the team does well, the STH also gets playoff tickets at face value. Everyone else takes out mortgages and sells kidneys to go to those games. You’ll have to excuse all of us if we don’t feel bad for STH when the Cubs sell tickets for $10 instead of letting them go empty.

If/when the Cubs do win the World Series, you’ll get to see that in person at a very reasonable price. The whining about the Cubs discounting tickets late in the season just seems petty.

by Schwa on Feb 28, 2011 8:30 AM CST reply actions  

Here's the deal

Think about how much the STH like Al have shelled out for 10+ years. They aren’t making that money back in one World Series appearance. Unless you really enjoy going to all the games, being a STH isn’t really worth it.

by JSB on Feb 28, 2011 8:32 AM CST up reply actions  

It's not like he was sentenced to buying season tickets for a crime he committed.

Season tickets are a luxury item. He (presumably) wouldn’t buy them if he:

1) Couldn’t afford them

2) Didn’t think they were worth it

Most of us would kill for the opportunity to go to every home game.

And I never said they’d make all their money back in one WS appearance. I don’t know where you’re getting that from. I was only talking about the gap from the $10 tickets.

by Schwa on Feb 28, 2011 8:39 AM CST up reply actions  

That's all correct.

But remember, I have been buying season tickets for almost 20 years, and have bought them in good seasons and bad. Sure, I’ve gotten the playoff tickets at face value. That’s four times since 1993, when I first got the bleacher season ticket. The other 16 years… most of them have been non-contending seasons.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 8:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Also

I understand the overall point of protecting the season ticket holders investment. Broad-cutting of prices without prior warning is unfair. But, I don’t think a couple discount deals is something for STH to get upset about.

by JSB on Feb 28, 2011 8:35 AM CST up reply actions  

As I have repeatedly said

… if they had posted a couple of discount deals last year, maybe 25% off or so, to sell unsold seats all over the park, I wouldn’t have said a word.

But 80% off of ONLY bleacher tickets? Not so much.

Anyway, a dynamic pricing system would solve a lot of these problems.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 8:48 AM CST up reply actions  

They've been running bleacher-only deals for years

I don’t see why this one was particularly objectionable. Why shouldn’t they be able to discount one particular area of the park. Would you have been mad if it was upper deck only?

by JSB on Feb 28, 2011 3:03 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Fairness.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 4:52 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think it is right or more importently good marketing to

limit to the bleachers, but realistically it will be limited to bleachers, terrace and UD reserved because there is far less available in the various box seats as the vast majority are full season plans.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 5:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Not in this case.

There were plenty of unsold terrace and UD reserved seats at the time this was done. If you’re going to discount, discount everything.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Mar 1, 2011 7:30 AM CST up reply actions  

At some point people are going to really grow tired of the high prices and I believe it is starting to happen.

Winning would solve much of that problem, as Al mentioned, but are they built to win this year?

by TJ11 on Feb 28, 2011 8:31 AM CST reply actions  

I did not buy as many tickets as I normally do.

Being from out of town I try to get to Wrigley three times per season, catching two games each time. The $80+ ticket for a Saturday to see the Marlins was all I could stomach. I normally come in the spring and then buy another weekend in case I can get there, and we’re winning. In past years I could usually sell those extra seats for a profit if I couldn’t get there. Not this year. I feel there will be tickets available throughout the year near face value. I can’t afford to wrap up this much money months in advance.

Winning will sell those tickets. If that doesn’t happen, I look forward to seeing a lot of empty seats at those prices. There is no way a family of four can afford a day at the ball park any more, and add in Chicago hotel prices. There are a lot of other ways to spend and more affordable.

I may catch the Cubs in Kansas City at a much lower price and visit Minneapolis for a game. And, I can watch the games at home a lot cheaper.

We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 for Hall of Fame.

by mrcubsfan on Feb 28, 2011 8:49 AM CST reply actions  

Agreed, I do not live in the Chicago area anymore, and it is much cheaper to see the Cubs at the other ballparks in my area...

I can do Atlanta, St. Louis and Cincy for less money and their tickets are cheaper even though they have better teams and newer ballparks.

I love Wrigley, its the best park ever in my opinion, but my guess is you will have more people not making the trip to Chicago because of the ticket prices and quality of the team….

by TJ11 on Feb 28, 2011 8:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Believe it or not, TJ, I agree

I would rather go to Milwaukee or Cincinnati (or this year, Kansas City) to watch the Cubs, spend less money and probably have a better time.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Feb 28, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes...

problem with Milwaukee though is that the Brewers are starting to jack up the Brewers/Cubs series ticket prices because of us.

Reds/Cubs are still very affordable. I’ll be in Cincy in September.

Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.

by mikegncb34 on Feb 28, 2011 5:48 PM CST up reply actions  

But if you go

to Milwaukee, you have to watch baseball in an airline hanger (I’m not a fan of that stadium) and deal with young Brewer fans who approach young Cub fans for their obnoxiousness.

Count me in as someone who usually bought tickets to a couple games on the on-sale date, but didn’t this year because I can probably get this tickets within a couple days of the game at or below face value.

One thing that happens when you kill the secondary market is people don’t have to snatch up tickets to avoid buying from the secondary market later.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Mar 1, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

One thing that happens when you kill the secondary market is people don’t have to snatch up tickets to avoid buying from the secondary market later.

True. But the primary market becomes almost as expensive.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Mar 2, 2011 7:22 AM CST up reply actions  

Exactly.

If I know that tickets will be available later, and I won’t save any money by buying early, I’m just going to wait until closer to the game. If the weather is bad, the team is bad, or something comes up, I might not buy any tickets.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Mar 2, 2011 8:27 AM CST up reply actions  

I hate to say this but,

I took my son to a game at Wrigley on his birthday two years ago, seats were expensive and we had an obstructed view… but he got to see Wrigley. Last year, we went to Cincinnati instead… way better price and really very good seats and a great stadium to watch a ball game. I can’t justify spending the money to go to Wrigley this year after seeing the pricing scales.

by JG23 on Feb 28, 2011 8:50 AM CST reply actions  

Cincinnati is a great place to watch a ballgame for sure

Can’t agree with you more. I go to school out here and have been to 4 Cubs/Reds games the last two seasons. Have sat in 4 completely different sections and have had great views and an awesome time every single time.

Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.

by mikegncb34 on Feb 28, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions  

GABP is OK...

… nothing special, IMO. Sightlines are decent, but I’ve been to other new parks I like better.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

I mean, so have I

i.e. Miller Park & Yankee Stadium.

But if you want to see the Cubs play for a very reasonable price at a nice park, GABP is certainly a terrific option.

Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.

by mikegncb34 on Feb 28, 2011 11:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

I’ve heard great things about PNC. I’m looking forward to going there sometime in the near future.

Also, I bought the “Tribe Fan Club” Package this year….hear me out…. I got it because it comes with the GameDay Audio Subscription, so I can listen to Cubs games. The package is 19.95 and it comes with gameday audio, 2 complimentary tickets to a ballgame, on-field batting practice access, etc. It’s awesome. So I’m going to head up there in early April (BRRRR) to check out the CLE/BOS game with a buddy of mine who is a huge Red Sox fan. Since GameDay Audio is normally 14.95, I think it’s a great deal, and I get to see another ballpark. I’m excited.

Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.

by mikegncb34 on Feb 28, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Pittsburgh is beautiful

Wins my vote for best new park over San Francisco.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Agree 100 percent

PNC is an absolute gem, and extremely affordable.

Not only that, but Pittsburgh is quite the underrated city.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Feb 28, 2011 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Agree with you about Pittsburgh.

I have family members there. At some point, I’m hoping to coordinate with them and go to a couple Cubs games when the Cubs visit PNC.

The surrounding area is also great.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

State high point count: 3/50

If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 28, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

It is, indeed

There’s also some good food to be had in the ’Burgh as well.

Milwaukee also is an excellent city.

by Not Bruce Froemming on Feb 28, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

I was in Milwaukee right before Christmas. I had a great time there, as I always do.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

State high point count: 3/50

If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 28, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I've heard great things about PNC.

I nearly took a stadium tour there a few years ago, but I couldn’t because the Pirates’ baseball season was over.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

State high point count: 3/50

If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 28, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think the Cubs will adopt dynamic pricing

They would be afraid it would show the true value of the majority of game which is well below what they have it pegged at. The value of say the Marlins Sat game might be $50-$60
not $81. Ironically dynamic pricing would have knocked out the brokers as they were the key to keaping prices high on a limited stock.
The Cubs will not risk of finding the emperor has no clothes re ticket prices. They might try it for crap games in April & Sept but I doubt even that.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 8:51 AM CST reply actions  

Dynamic pricing for the Marlins game...

… if sold NOW would be $50 or $60.

If the Cubs play well, it could push $100 for bleachers. That’s how a dynamic pricing system works.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 8:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Like I said Al they won't take the chance

of showing how overpriced they were and betting everything on the team being very good.

As a practical matter they can’t afford to make any dramatic changes this year.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 8:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Lower prices

I have a family of four (Soon to be five). I used to go to 5 or 6 gams a year with my wife before we were married and had kids. These days, it is simply too expensive to go. By the time you factor in the cost of tickets, transportation, and food / souveniers at the game, you are spending at least $200 – $300 for the crappy team games. I’m sorry, I love the Cubs, but I refuse to pay that, especially when the chances of us staying through the entire game is pretty small, since our kids are so young.

by ZeoBandit on Feb 28, 2011 8:51 AM CST reply actions  

Agreed...

They are pricing themselves out of the regular people’s range….

’Maybe that is all that is important to Ricketts?

by TJ11 on Feb 28, 2011 8:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Look at the fans that travel....

to Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and Detroit in 2009 . Alot we talked to all were fed up with the Wrigley field prices . It appears the greed factor is growing fast . If Ricketts saw empty seats last year wait until this year .

by cubs north on Feb 28, 2011 10:21 AM CST up reply actions  

I am also surprised they have done next to nothing on food packages.

They should be pushing the kind of 4 pack (or more or less) that teams offer families or anyone of hotdog, soda, nachos/fries/chips for about $40. It would be a win/win.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 8:57 AM CST reply actions  

As you probably know

Levy, the current food folks, are stuck with very limited “infrastructure” to support diverse food options like some of the newer parks.

But that shouldn’t preclude the management from doing what you say – just like the movie theaters.

We should at least get an option of, “would you like the foot-long for an extra dollar?”

by The E-Man on Feb 28, 2011 9:15 AM CST up reply actions  

If they offered a reasonable price on the basic ballpark meal

a lot more people would be more likely to wait till they got in to buy food instead of going to
McDonalds etc. Me I always bring food because I am cheap and I like a really good fresh sandwich, but many others would take advantage. They would still make the big money on the beer, but they really should over discount food packages.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions  

At least they allow outside food!

The Red Sox have clamped down on this, which I think is bogus, given all the other revenue sources they’ve cultiuvated so assiduously.

I really think some reality adjustment is needed all over big league sports, or they’ll be wrecking their future. I know that I would not be as big a baseball fan as I am had it not been for dozens of evenings at the ballpark when I was in school or just out of it. I went to 20 or 30 Red Sox games a year when I was in my early 20s; tickets weren’t much more than a movie ticket, and you could bring a pizza to split with your friends, so it was a pretty affordable outing.

"Every day when I show up, I try to provide a little laughter...some days when I pitch it gets pretty funny, too." -- Ryan Dempster, 5/2010

by CaughtInTheVines on Feb 28, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Preventing outside food at sporting events....

… just pisses fans off. Why do it?

I can understand not allowing alcohol, or cans/bottles, which can be thrown.

But a sandwich or pizza? Banning outside food like that is a real slap in the face to fans who already have to pay a fortune just to get in.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 10:19 AM CST up reply actions  

What do they prevent exactly

The only place I have been that prevented ANY food was the Marlins for the post season.
You can take food into Yankee in a clear bagggie. Do the Red Sox really stop a sandwich? I ask as I would normally plan to bring one when I go this year.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions  

They do discount ballpark food...

… 25% for the first hour after the gates open. Now, not everyone can get to games that early. But if you do, you can get a decent deal.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions  

That photo shows how the bleacher prices are for the birds.

I quail at the thought of spending so much for tickets. $81 is tough enough to swallow. But geese, adding tax and fees makes it even more starling.

"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Feb 28, 2011 8:59 AM CST reply actions  

"Geese"?

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by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

They're as big as geese.

$81 for a bleacher ticket, plus the taxes and fees AND all those geese…. I agree it’s a tough sell.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Feb 28, 2011 10:03 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, that was lame.

I pronounced it “geez” in my head.

"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Feb 28, 2011 9:59 AM CST up reply actions  

I remember bleecher tickets going for like $4 in the early 80's.....Its not like I am talking about 1935....

That is quite the markup….

If that is what they are charging, there is NO reason not to put a contending team on the field every year.

by TJ11 on Feb 28, 2011 9:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Obviously they haven't always contended but

your comment is why they can never blow it up as some people hope. Big market teams can never blow it up with the expectation of being bad for several years with the hope of contending in the future. Big market teams have to try and contend. Look at the Dodgers. Even with the divorce mess they are signing several large deals.

People that propose the “blow it up” model aren’t looking at reality.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Feb 28, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions  

I have posted this

sentiment recently almost verbatim.

BUT, what angers me is when we hear Tom or Crane say that “we can’t spend like a big-market team”, and he/they actually did this off-season.

I can’t accept that.

by The E-Man on Feb 28, 2011 9:21 AM CST up reply actions  

The Cubs may not be able to spend at the Yankees and Red Sox level right now

but they should be in the next tier. The goal should be the Red Sox if they can build a successful program. They will never be in the Yankees’ universe.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Feb 28, 2011 9:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

I did cut HS back in the day.

In the early-mid 70’s bleachers were under $5 – I am thinking $3

But still, since 2003 (if not 1989), the “acceptance bar” has been raised.

The fans demand more and just “going to Wrigley Field”, is simply not enough for most – myself included.

by The E-Man on Feb 28, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions  

In the mid 1970s bleachers were still $1.

They didn’t go up to $1.50 until 1979 and were $4 as late as 1989.

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by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 9:27 AM CST up reply actions  

But now $81 in a bad market?

pretty bad…..Our team had better be REALLY good!!!!!

by TJ11 on Feb 28, 2011 9:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Even With All the Inflation of the...

mid-1970’s through the early 1980’s and the more modest inflation since then, those adjusted ticket prices for today would be a lot less than $81.

2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.

by memphiscub on Feb 28, 2011 9:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Right.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions  

And the fact that income for the middle class has remained essentially flat

for the past thirty years really puts the screws to all but wealthy fans.

by the nth on Feb 28, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

You've Got to Pick Your Spots

Most fans have to pick and choose the games attended. Getting season tickets is way out of reach financially for a lot of people. That’s just for one season ticket. There are things such as groceries, water, electricity, gas, and mortgages that concern many. Where are their priorities?

2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.

by memphiscub on Feb 28, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Food, shelter, heat?

What is that compared to Cub tickets? I am as bad as heroin addict and it seem that I have very twisted priorities.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

LMAO

2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.

by memphiscub on Feb 28, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree, there is no reason why a big market team with a huge fanbase can't be in it every year....The excuses are over. Its not 1975 anymore!

If the owners are scared to spend money on the team they bought, they should sell.

I am worried that if Pujos is available they will not have the balls to go after him.

by TJ11 on Feb 28, 2011 9:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Uh oh...

TJ said the “P” word.

-100 BCB points.

"I think part of a best friend's job should be to immediately clear your computer history if you die." - Anonymous

by Easy Ed on Feb 28, 2011 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

2002 was my first game in the bleachers...

Paid $24 for my ticket to a Sat. game in late May… and I remember my friend’s dad grumbling about how the bleacher prices were outta control.

by MillsChC on Feb 28, 2011 7:59 PM CST up reply actions  

That was very good katie.

I got all the bird references and knew you meant “geez” for geese.

A lovely story:

One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....

But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.

The end

by sue369 on Feb 28, 2011 10:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Good.

Was afraid I went out on a limb on that one and that people would think I was a loon.

"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Feb 28, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Not a chance.

your post had me owling with delight. Very subtle and yet, easy to read – not hawkward at all. But now I must retern to work.

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 28, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

I see that toucan play at this game.

"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Feb 28, 2011 11:30 AM CST up reply actions  

you win

but enough about tickets. Let’s talk instead about today’s game – who’s pigeon again for the Cubs?

Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."

by ballhawk on Feb 28, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Not sure.

Swan Marshall?

I wonder if anyone will be bunting or hitting fowl balls.

"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Feb 28, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Will Marlon Byrd Play or....

will Doug Bird pitch?

2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.

by memphiscub on Feb 28, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Why just "Bleachers"?

This policy has affected me since 2004 in the “Bowl” seating areas as well. Not just the Bleachers.

And, as I have been advocating for some time, the main point is:

…there is a perception that the Cubs are selling tickets at Red Sox or Yankees price levels without the decade-plus of sustained success that those teams have had on the field.

Not a “perception”. This is reality!

What is happening, is that we are all getting charged as if we were going to visit a “shrine” or Museum. We are all still being marketed the greatness of Wrigley Field in the time-honored marketing tradition of what the owners do when the team sucks, yet they want to fill the seats.

Only, the folks that aren’t invested with the crazy investments like the STH have been making for the long haul, are smart enough to not buy tickets under this scenario.

by The E-Man on Feb 28, 2011 9:02 AM CST reply actions  

True, we are treated like the privledge of going to Wrigley is worth much more than the team itself...

People now expect to see some good players and see a team trying to win at all costs….Not be told, hey, wait for us to get some of the contracts off the books!

Maybe people should NOT buy tickets at all until that happens…..Ticket prices would drop in a hurry….OR the money would spent on building a winner and not dumpster diving for Looper and Wellmeyer….

by TJ11 on Feb 28, 2011 9:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Honestly, as we have seen

that is already happening.

For the STH, like myself, we can barely sell games at COST.

Two years ago, I was able to break even which allowed me to enjoy seeing 10 games + at a modest investment.

By destroying the secondary market, they are also destroying some of the STH base too with attrition based on this. And, with what has been recently delivered as a losing product, it becomes a tough sell to new ones (as well as the general sales).

by The E-Man on Feb 28, 2011 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

It may be sacrilegious to some but

the ballpark really doesn’t matter that much. Everyone should go to Wrigley and Fenway for the historical aspect but after that the game on the field is a lot more important. Some of the newer throwback stadiums are just as enjoyable as Wrigley Field.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Feb 28, 2011 9:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Honesty Compels Me to Report

that while the Ricketts care about winning that they care more about making money. That’s just business. I believe the Ricketts do care more about winning than the majority of owners. My point is that all owners care more about making money than winning. The question is, “How big is the gap between the desire to make money and the desire to win?”

2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.

by memphiscub on Feb 28, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions  

Good question....

So far we have heard more about reducing salaries and raising ticket prices than the opposite….

The proof will be at the end of this season when several contracts are gone. If they spend on good players and REALLY try to win. That will be good….But if it is just their pockets, they will be liars…..

We will see….

by TJ11 on Feb 28, 2011 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

How much of this is..

..lack of demand from the secondary market? Coming from Des Moines I was able to buy box seats around face value (no shortage of them) and bleacher seats slightly below (again, no shortage) on Stubhub for the last homestand. I’m not going to shed a tear for scalp…..legalized ticket brokers out there but I wonder how many are playing it safer this year.

by GSG on Feb 28, 2011 9:35 AM CST reply actions  

that's an interesting idea.

Cubs tickets certainly aren’t the investment that they were a few years ago. It wouldn’t surprise me if there was more than a little truth to that.

---AC 00 00 00 - Believe

by mjk83 on Feb 28, 2011 9:39 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree as well

And think this is a big reason why some of the games have not yet sold out.

by Ihatethecards on Feb 28, 2011 9:48 AM CST reply actions  

My gut reaction...

…is that I fear the Ricketts are going to have to learn many things about owning the Cubs the hard way. And this may very well be one of them.

I also wonder whether the high prices for bleacher seats comes from the belief that a certain, large segment of the buying public feels it MUST sit in the bleachers to enjoy the game. I’m referring to, say, 18- to 35-year-olds who feel they’re missing the party if they don’t sit out there. Are the Cubs trying to capitalize on this belief by charging a premium for the Wrigley Field bleacher “experience”? Sure seems that way.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Feb 28, 2011 9:48 AM CST reply actions  

I have thought this for a LONG time....

Advice to Ricketts…..Build a winner and then you can do what you want…..Act like the most important thing is winning the games and the fans will be on your side.

by TJ11 on Feb 28, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

From the man who thought seperating out the tax would help

the Cubs get government funding for stadium improvements? I loath Kenney and think he represents everything that is wrong with the Cubs these days.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 5:33 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Cheers, my friend

Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.

by mikegncb34 on Feb 28, 2011 5:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Sad truth.

I don’t know if Ricketts is this unaware, or if some of the dopes in the FO have Tom listening to everything they say. Probably both. Sigh.

GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.

by shoemile on Feb 28, 2011 6:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes I agree

For someone who is supposed to be a smart businessman these is very disappointing.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 9:16 PM CST up reply actions  

June 16 is sold out?

I just clicked the “T” icon and got right through. It seems there still are plenty of tickets available for that game.

I think you mean June 17, June 18, and June 19 (which, not surprisingly, are all three Yankees games).

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

State high point count: 3/50

If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 28, 2011 9:56 AM CST reply actions  

You're right.

I had the wrong dates. It is 6/17, 6/18 and 6/19. I’ll fix the post.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on Feb 28, 2011 10:02 AM CST up reply actions  

I admit this has probably been covered by everyone here,

But it really makes no sense to (A) increase price levels, and (B) add a fifth, more expensive price tier, in a bad economy with a bad team. You’re asking for empty seats with that combination.

If Ricketts was smart, he would have kept prices the way they were, or, even lowered them so more people would be willing to watch.

Build a winner on the field, watch the fans come back. Care more about profiting off the fans, and not work toward building a winner on the field, and you can expect empty seats.

I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.

State high point count: 3/50

If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Feb 28, 2011 10:00 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

It's amazing how fast things can change.

Buying the Cubs is something you would sit around a bar with friends and say what a no-brainer it would be because the fans come win or lose. Unfortunately for Joe Ricketts, his kids sat around and had the same conversation, hit him up for the dough and he agreed!

by the nth on Feb 28, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

The irony is that they actually did NOT raise prices this year

in most sections and not in the bleachers or terrace, BUT they still messed up big time.
I think they could have gotten away with raising prices for Yankees, White Sox , Opening Day and Cards summer Weekend but they raised it on 3 additional meaningless games AND they raised the bleachers WAY too high. My seats ( Terrace Infield) went from about $50 to about $55 for the platinum games and that actually is not terrible. It was offset by lower prices to other games, but overall prices remain too high for the majority of summer games and the crappy games. Again the guys with the spread sheets only looked at numbers and just really did not understand the reality of what games had value and how low the value of others was. Last year the Cubs made a huge mistake pricing a Dodger series in May at the highest price and this year they did this for far more games.

This is why I believe the marketing strategy itself is so bad. The Cubs did not raise prices on most seats, but everyone will think they did because they did such a piss poor job of how they priced individual games. They might have followed the Mets lead and (gasp) actually lowered prices after a terrible season. Ironically the six pack is the closet they have ever come to offering a fair package of games, but I think it was too little too late
especially coming after the vastly inferior 13 pack.

Again I think it too late to do much more than a little tinkering THIS year, but one can hope they will make some real changes next year especially if we want to pay for Albert.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 10:21 AM CST reply actions  

I'm not sure which will come first:

You saying something positive about the Cubs’ ticketing policies… or a World Series appearance.

by Schwa on Feb 28, 2011 10:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Um I said I like the six pack in more than one post

So I guess it has to be the World Series. When the Cubs make improvements like the six pack I will be happy to give them credit but right now that is about the only good thing they have done.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions  

A Head Scratcher

A bleacher season ticket buyer, at the time of renewal, should be able to switch to some other available seating that hasn’t gone up as much. If they don’t allow that then they should.

I’m no student of ticket pricing, but this seems like handing out bigger price increases to season ticket holders for seats that can be more easily sold at the last minute when necessary. Is it possible that this is what they’ve done?

by AboutTheCubs on Feb 28, 2011 1:10 PM CST reply actions  

Bleachers are ground zero

Almost $50 a ticket, after tax, to see the Dodgers on a Friday in April. That is atrocious. It should be half that.

by bluemagic9 on Feb 28, 2011 5:29 PM CST reply actions  

Beats paying $50 to watch the Pirates play the FIRST weekend in April

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Feb 28, 2011 5:36 PM CST up reply actions  

As noted in my post.

The splits on the pricing tiers aren’t really done right. They are based on data from years before the economy tanked.

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by Al Yellon on Mar 1, 2011 7:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Sure seems that way

Many of the price breakdowns make no sense. In what world is April 22 a hotter game than Labor Day?

by bluemagic9 on Mar 1, 2011 2:53 PM CST up reply actions  

My two cents

After reading a lot of these comments, personally I think it’s the economy finally coming to haunt major league baseball. With the recession still going on, no matter what is said, people just don’t have the income to spend, and so things like baseball games become luxuries and are skipped. Doesn’t matter what they price the tickets at, if people don’t have the money to spend, they’re not going to spend it. And for those that do, they are getting tired of subpar play on the field. It’s been said many times that 2003 was the turning point for many cubs fans, and I firmly believe that to be the case. This “lovable losers” thing is stupid and unacceptable in this day and age, especially when your asking people to shell out sometimes hundreds of dollars to see a baseball game. Until the economy climbs out of the hole that it’s in, and people start working again, it’s going to be tough to sell tickets to just about anything.

by nmcubsfan on Feb 28, 2011 7:29 PM CST reply actions  

According to the

Heckler fans were so excited they forgot to buy tickets.

"Chicago Cubs baseball is on the air."-Pat Hughes

by katie casey on Mar 1, 2011 7:53 AM CST reply actions  

I love this

Especially the photo.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Mar 1, 2011 8:00 AM CST up reply actions  

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