Some Reassuring Words Regarding Andrew Cashner

If, like me, you're happy to see Cash Money in the rotation but worried about his workload, this article should brighten your day a little bit. Pitching coach Mark Riggins is aware of the situation and intends to monitor it closely. He even -- gasp! --- "cites numerous studies about pitchers’ workloads and risks associated with building high innings totals."

Of course, there's still some uncertainty about what the Cubs should do if the team (and, presumably, Cashner) is doing well down the stretch. Do they shut him down no matter what? Risk burning out his arm to stay in contention?

And, that aside, what affect will his pitch count limit have on the bullpen? I'm guessing we could see another reliever (Samardzija?) perhaps "co-starting" with Cashner in many games.

In any case, it'll be interesting to see how this story develops throughout the season.

about 1 year ago daver 32 comments 0 recs |

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Well as always you hope the powers that be take a smart approach

That being said, Cashner is due to be stretched out at this point in his career. And of course those type’s of decisions are why the coach makes the big bucks.

If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.

by carolinacub on Mar 29, 2011 10:05 AM CDT reply actions

I wouldn't mind a trade for another swingman

Florida has too many bullpen arms out of options. Edward Mujica has not had a good Spring, but was highly effective for San Diego last year. I wonder if the Cubs could send Mateo (who could go to AAA for the Marlins) and another middling prospect for him.

Re: Cashner, I think he goes to the pen in July and one of the AAA starters comes up to eat innings for a while: Coleman, Carpenter, or Jackson most likely. Then in 2012 Cash can start the whole season.

No one should be untouchable on this roster unless his name is Eliot Ness...or Starlin Castro.

by cubzfan on Mar 29, 2011 10:06 AM CDT reply actions

Has something like that been done before?

Where a pitcher is basically taken out of the rotation for a bit with the intention to be put back in at a later time? I’m not referring to pitchers that have been unsuccessful and removed and later put in, but rather to do this with the sole intent of limiting innings?

I don’t think it’s a bad idea, just wondering if it’s ever been tried.

by jerry morales rules on Mar 29, 2011 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions

I was wondering if

the Cubs were considering shutting down Wells in ’09. Except, the other starters got hurt as well. We will se JJax and Carp in some capacity this season.

by timh815 on Mar 29, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions

Phil Hughes, like a year ago.

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by D98 on Mar 29, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions

Hmmm...

…I hadn’t considered that possibility. And I’d be curious as to whether there’s a precedent for that, too.

Are you saying the Cubs would move Cashner back to the bullpen to limit his pitch counts or because the pen is struggling? I think I’d see the latter as more of a possibility. It sounds like Riggins intends to monitor his pitch counts very carefully and Cashner could last a little longer than July in the rotation, assuming he doesn’t really struggle.

And I’d be a little surprised if Hendry made a trade like that. It seems like there are so many mid-level arms in the Cubs system, someone could be called up if another swingman was needed. Maybe Jay Jackson if the organization wants Coleman to stay a full-time starter in Iowa.

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by daver on Mar 29, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions

It won't be Shark,

he has hasn’t been groomed for that type of roll this year. And I don’t see them pulling him out of the rotation completely. My guess is they’ll use their off days to the advantage, bump up Dempster, just have Cash throw a light bull pen session, those type of things. Then September, depending on the race, I’d look for Coleman or someone to get a spot start here and there. To start the year i don’t see Cash goign more then 6 for awhile. But like Riggins said, its not necassarily bout the innings or even the pitch count. Its about the type of pitches. I used too pitch and I can tell ya the higher stress situations are way more taxing. So the situations will be more telling on how long he goes, etc. then pitch count, then innings. Just my humble opinion. Apologies for ramblign a bit.

by MDavis on Mar 29, 2011 11:10 AM CDT reply actions

That's a good point.

Much will probably depend on how things go for Cashner. If he can get a lot of ground balls and minimize high-stress innings, maybe he’ll last a bit longer.

And I know that Shark has been focusing on relieving this spring, but I still think he’d be probably the most likely candidate to go two or three innings. After all, he started most of last year in Iowa and made those two or three starts late last season. Plus, I believe Quade has even mentioned that Samardzija, Mateo and Russell could go more than one inning.

Of those three, I’d hesitantly lean toward Shark — Russell scares me against right-handed hitters and I see Mateo more as a one-inning power arm.

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by daver on Mar 29, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions

Ideally

and this is something I have thrown out before – slate Cashner for 4 innings per start – that equates to 132 innings on the season and have Coleman do the next 4 and someone to come in and close the game. This way if Cashner sucks coleman can step in – if Coleman sucks we can slot someone else in and it gives the bullpen an off day.

by hansman1982 on Mar 29, 2011 11:40 AM CDT reply actions

Yeah, that's very ideally how a "co-starting" arrangement could work.

Of course, Coleman isn’t on the 25-man, so it won’t be him — at least not to start the season. I still think the Shark would be the most likely candidate, at the moment, to eat up two to three innings after a four-inning Cashner start.

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by daver on Mar 29, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions

I agree with that

I understand Coleman isnt on the 25 man but thats how I would do it…then again I am not a Manager or GM so what do I know. Well the 12th man should get some decent work this year

by hansman1982 on Mar 29, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions

4 innings

To me that is too few for Cashner. If he is at all effective, that would mean not even getting through the lineup twice. The number of innings he throws certainly bears watching. However, for him to develop he will need to have some opportunities to get later into some ballgames.

I would much rather seem him skipped a couple of times through the year, pulled after 5/6 innings when he could go 6/7, an maybe even be DLed in the case of the most minor of injuries to miss 2-3 starts.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Mar 29, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions

the way I see it

if you have him go 4 he should be able to get through each lineup once, this way he should have a good season and that should lead to higher confidence. He could probably also get away with more mistakes as hitters may not key into them until later in the season where, hopefully, he has had a chance to work out most of the flaws.

by hansman1982 on Mar 29, 2011 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions

plus

this helps keep him going every 5 days and doesnt overwork the rest of the staff…Z might be able to stave off his August dead arm spell

by hansman1982 on Mar 29, 2011 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions

I would love to see these studies

that suggest severly limiting a young pitcher’s innings helps him stay healthy or develop. The Cubs after all shut down Prior in 2002 and that didnt help at all. Ideally you monitor every pitcher the same way, if he shows signs that he has arm fatigue you shut him down, regardlesss of whether he is a rookie or a 15 year veteran, but not untill. Lincecum threw approx. 150 innings in his first year. There is no reason, if Cashner can get people out, that he shouldnt have a similar workload this year, especially considering this team will most likely be out of any playoff races by mid August.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Mar 29, 2011 12:09 PM CDT reply actions

re: Prior

Well, he was able to stay pitching-injury-free in 2003.

Eamus Ursuli!

by WGNstatic on Mar 29, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions

We tend to forget

how totally awesome he was that season. He really could have won the Cy Young that season.

by Josh Timmers on Mar 29, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions

Not could have, but

should have. If my memory is correct, I believe he was 2nd in wins, strikeouts and ERA to 3 different guys. Plus he was almost unhittable down the stretch. Not only should he have won the Cy Young, but he probably should have gotten a lot of MVP consideration.

My point is that injuries happen for all sorts of reasons and there is no way to manage a player to be injury free for his career. I think a pitchers development can be comprimised if they are shut down for no other reason than for mgmt. to say to the fans, “see we monitored our young gun properly.” It could be counterproductive.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Mar 29, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions

and most of his

injuries were non-pitching related…

by hansman1982 on Mar 29, 2011 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions

Check out Mark Prior's pitch counts in September of 2003

There’s a reason that no one – regardless of age – has done that ever since.

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by D98 on Mar 29, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions

Well, I think there is a huge difference between pitch counts and innings

But I still am pretty old school about this, there have been a number of young power pitchers over the last few years who have thrown a lot of pitches/innings and have not had major arm problems. I dont think we will ever no for sure why Prior broke down the way he did, but just pointing to pitches thrown, doesnt tell the whole story.

I still stand by what I said, you monitor all pitchers more or less the same way, regardless of age. When they get tired you dont send em out to pitch. If they are not tired then let them go. You dont just randomly pick a number of innings or pitches for a maximum and then shut them down when they reach that number, it just isnt that simple.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Mar 29, 2011 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't know the answer, either.

I DO know that your second paragraph is almost word-for-word exactly what Dusty Baker said when people asked him if 7 130+ pitch outings for Mark Prior were a good idea.

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by D98 on Mar 29, 2011 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions

Well Dusty was/is incompetent

I am not sure if he can tell when a pitcher is tired. But for a normal human being, it really isnt all that tough to tell when a guy is done. Prior threw too many unneccessary pitches in 03, i dont think anyone can argue with that. But is that the reason he broke down? Or did it have more to do with the seperated shoulder he got while running the bases? Every pitcher is different, to think that there is a magic formula for determining what the proper number of innings or pitches a young guy should throw to keep him healthy is just wishful thinking. And I think it could potentially hurt a young pitcher’s development.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Mar 29, 2011 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions

Also, one other little thing

I think there is a pretty huge gap between Prior circa 2003 and Cashner 2011. Prior already had developed everything he really needed. Cashner needs to learn a lot about pitching and the best way to learn is to be on the mound trying to get guys out. Im not saying that you shouldnt keep a close eye on him, of course the Cubs should. Any signs of arm fatigue or unusual tightness should be handled very seriously. But if he feels good, and looks good, and is getting people out, then let him pitch. Dont just shut him down so you can say that you didnt overwork him. After all, Cashner will probably be expected to take on far greater responsibilites starting next year, the Cubs need to make sure he is ready both arm strength wise and experience wise.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Mar 29, 2011 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions

the old school of thinking

on pitchers needs to be thrown out. Pitchers dont pitch like they used to – its 100% on every pitch from pitch #1 as opposed to the days of even Nolan Ryan and Seaver – whom, I believe, has stated several times that the first time through the rotation he didnt put everything behind his pitches because he knew he had to last 8 innings.

Fast forward to today, if you take a swing through the lineup out of a pitchers stamina that puts you down in the 6/7 inning territory that most starters are expected to throw through, which, on a good appearance, will put you in the 110-120 pitch range – at this point its basic logic as to why managers need to monitor IP’s and PC’s on most starters out there.

by hansman1982 on Mar 29, 2011 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions

No way

Its just ridiculous to suggest that Nolan Ryan and Tom Seaver held anything back early in games. If they had they wouldnt have gotten out of the first inning. They might not have featured every pitch the first time through a lineup, but believe me they were putting 100% effort behind every pitch they threw.

And again, I have never said that the Cubs shouldnt monitor Cashner’s innings and pitches, of course they should and very closely. But to just shut him down because he has reached a specific number of innings or pitches could very well prove to be counterproductive to his development.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Mar 29, 2011 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions

I have seen

a mid-century great quoted as such – that in the early innings you didnt throw as hard because you knew you had to last 8 maybe 9 innings…cant remember who exactly but it was a HoF

by hansman1982 on Mar 30, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions

I think Fergie Jenkins said that.

And if he didn’t, he sure pitched that way.

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by Al Yellon on Mar 30, 2011 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions

Just wondering....

who will start at 2nd base?Is there a chance Barney could get the nod by years end?

by goatstew on Mar 29, 2011 1:06 PM CDT reply actions

Yes, there's a chance...

…if Barney can hit just enough and continue to play great defense. In fact, I get the impression he’ll get the first look vs. RHPs with Jeff Baker probably starting against lefties.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Mar 29, 2011 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions

Monitoring Cashner's workload

has been one of the fairly under-reported stories of ST.

As much as I like Cashner and have high hope for his future, his current presence in the Cubs’ rotation will really put the club behind the 8-ball on many occasions.

Has Cash even cracked the 75 pitch mark yet? For the first month or two, 100 pitches is probably going to be an absolute max, with 80-90 being more likely. With the way he pitches as a swing-and-miss guy (as opposed to deliberately pitching to contact), he will rarely crack the five inning barrier.

That will put more innings on the plate of Shark, Mateo, and Russell, otherwise known as the soft underbelly of our pen. It also likely causes Quade to push and extend the other starters, Wells and Dempster in particular since they wrap around Cashner’s spot, to help “save” the pen.

Cashner has all the ability to be a very solid contributor to the rotation for the Cubs. But given the limits that need to be applied to his workload, the Cubs likely would have been wiser having him start the season in Iowa, if only for a month to work up the pitch counts in lower pressure situations.

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by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Mar 29, 2011 3:46 PM CDT reply actions

Totally agree.

I would’ve been a little more comfortable with Cashner starting in Iowa. In fact, I’m still not entirely convinced Carlos Silva wouldn’t have been a serviceable fifth starter for at least a month or two to start the season. But that’s all toxic water under the bridge now, I guess. This article at least reassures me a little that the Cubs are aware of this issue and presumably have some sort of plan in place. Cashner’s starts are certainly going to be interesting.

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by daver on Mar 29, 2011 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions