Cubs 14, Angels 13: A Big Comeback Win, But No Silva Lining
by Al Yellon on Mar 7, 2011 5:45 PM CST
in Chicago Cubs Recaps
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PrintIt's still somewhat early in spring training -- today's 14-13 win over the Angels is game 10 of 35 -- but there has to be some urgency among the Cubs brass regarding the future of Carlos Silva. Before we talk about Silva's performance, let's give props where they are due -- to the sub Cubs who came into the game after the fifth inning and fueled a comeback from a 10-run deficit. No credit, though, to Jeff Samardzija, who had a shot at posting a save, but instead served up a game-tying homer to Brandon Wood. Instead, it was up to Bryan LaHair, who drove in Fernando Perez with two out in the bottom of the ninth with the winning run, the Cubs' second straight walkoff win. Incidentally, had this been a regular-season game, it would have broken the National League record for longest nine-inning game in history. It ran four hours and 29 minutes; the NL record is 4:27, set by the Dodgers and Giants in 2001. (The MLB record is 4:45, set by -- you guessed it -- the Yankees and Red Sox.)
Scott Moore, who's been playing 2B in an effort to increase his versatility, hit a grand slam in a seven-run Cub sixth. Moore likely won't make the team, but he could be a useful spare part at Iowa this year. Then the Cubs' winning rally in the bottom of the eighth was highlighted by a bases-clearing double by Max Ramirez. The two Cubs catchers today, Ramirez and Welington Castillo, combined to go 3-for-5 with four RBI. Which is three more hits than Koyie Hill has had all spring. Seriously -- I know the organization loves Hill and the pitchers have said good things about him. But one of these guys -- Castillo or Ramirez -- has to be a better choice to back up Geovany Soto.
Now, on to the Silva-bashing.
Silva was bad today. Really bad. He got hit hard, giving up ten hits and eight earned runs, one of which scored after he left the game. Last year, he got roughed up in his first spring outing and then had a good spring, which continued into the first half of last year. Then Silva had some injury and health problems, had a bad second half and got shut down in September.
Silva has had some major league success, but it appears to have come to an end. I suppose it's worth giving Silva at least one more start, but if he gets hit hard again, it's probably time to simply release him. The Cubs owe him $7.5 million and that's a large hit to take, but you'd think that among a group that includes Andrew Cashner, Todd Wellemeyer, Casey Coleman and Braden Looper (and I may be missing a few), they could find someone who could give $7.5 million worth of production for the minimum wage. In particular, I'd like to see Coleman getting some chances to start; I liked what I saw from him once he was given a rotation slot last September. Granted that five of his eight starts were against also-ran teams, but he's earned the shot, I think.
James Russell wasn't real good today either; he gave up a long home run to Mark Trumbo, who went 4-for-4 with three runs scored. The Cubs are counting on him, I think, to be the third lefty in the bullpen, so he'll need to do better than this.
Attendance watch: the per-game average went down for Cubs home games with the paid attendance of 6,804 today. The average is 7,407 and only one of the six dates has drawn over 10,000. That has to be concerning. Other Cactus League crowds today: Diamondbacks/Royals in Surprise, 3,356; Brewers/Reds in Goodyear, 2,568; Mariners/Athletics in Phoenix, 3,404 and Dodgers/Rockies at Talking Stick, 7,786. A game played in Tucson between split squads of the White Sox and Diamondbacks to raise money in memory of the Tucson shooting victims drew 7,419. The Indians/White Sox game in Glendale was still in progress at the time of this post (meaning it will be an even longer game by time than the Cubs game!); two other games (Royals/Padres at Peoria, Rangers/Giants at Scottsdale) are tonight. Many of those figures still seem quite low, even though it's Monday.
Tomorrow, I'm hitting the road to head to Arizona. There will be game threads as usual, but recaps will likely be delayed. I'll post lineups if I can get them, otherwise, please feel free to post them in the comments. My first game in Mesa is Thursday.
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Nitpick: 14-13, Not 13-12
In the story (not the headline), the score is listed as 13-12 and not 14-13. Does it make much of a difference? Uh, no. I just thought I would point out that out.
2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.
Damn, beat me to it.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 7, 2011 5:52 PM CST up reply actions
Al, game score was 14-13,
But you said 13-12 in the post.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 7, 2011 5:51 PM CST reply actions
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I had to change it about six times while I was writing. I’ll fix it.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Just Don't Mess Up On Your Tax Return
That’s serious stuff. An error there can be costly.
2011 - The 103rd time is the charm.
I bet this kind of foolishness doesn't occur on the Nationals board!
By all that's holy, I am going to attend the 2012 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp.
Held to two field goals ;)
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
White Sox/Indians called after 9 in 16-16 tie.
Attendance: 3,418
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Why is MLB listing as "suspended"?
Is that what they say with ST ties?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 7, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
Probably, because...
… there are no tie games any more, so the MLB computer probably has to show a tie as “suspended”.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Al,
Were there any reports of fights or incidents in the dugout after the error in the third today?
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 7, 2011 5:53 PM CST reply actions
"The Cubs owe him $7.5 million and that's a large hit to take"
Seriously? You think the Cubs will eat $7.5 million because of a couple spring training starts? Were you sitting on the grass today or smoking it?
Unless he is hurt, I guarantee Silva will get a chance to succeed or fail in the regular season. He did start out 8-0 last year.
Yes, but...
… that was after having a pretty good spring training. This one isn’t.
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I havent checked but,
are these split squad games Silva is throwing meat to? or are these the Big leaguers?
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
There's been a mix of both in his two starts.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
i think if silva came into camp in shape, didnt start a fight, and wasnt one of the worst pitchers in baseball before last year
he would be given more rope
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Mar 7, 2011 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
How about after that 8-0 start
when he was 2-6 with a 6.15 ERA?
Yes, you can say he was hurt, but hasn’t “hurt” been the default status of Silva since 2006?
Whoa.
Weren’t you arguing the opposite point earlier?
Simply asking, not trying to be a jerk.
Not sure what I was arguing
I was arguing we shouldn’t put too much stock in ST results. I’ve also been arguing that Silva’s first half last season was a fluke, although I’m not confident enough to say that definitively.
So unless you can tell me what I was arguing earlier, I can’t say if I was contradicting myself.
I thought you were implying something ...
and I was apparently wrong. My mistake.
That is not exactly fair for last year Josh
Silva was actually very good for a month after his 8th win. He had 5 starts after win # 8. All of them where quality starts, but he got poor run support so he got 1 win 2 losses and 2 no decisions in that month. After that it was very, very ugly and clearly he was injured. He had 3 plus months of an ERA under 3 and and 12 of those first 15 starts were also quality starts. Again he went bad fast but he had an extraordinarily good first half of the season and made only 6 starts after the All Star break.
I get that Silva had ugly years in Seattle but we seem to be dismissing his very good 3 months of pitching last year . He is out of shape and Rothschild is gone , but I am still not willing to write off a guy with ERA under 3 for the first half of the season.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 7, 2011 9:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I put a lot more stock
in three years of lousy pitching than three months of good pitching.
But I don’t think we should be dropping him yet. He should get more starts to right himself. The first two starts of ST shouldn’t be taken too seriously.
That is pretty much all I mean
that it is way too early to write him off.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 7, 2011 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
Did someone's clock spring forward a bit too early?...
The game started right after 3:00pm here & it’s not even 7:00pm yet… so how did this game last over 4 hours?
That's very strange.
I got that from the boxscore. They have since changed it to 3:29, which seems correct.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Silva
I’m not calling for cutting him but if I’m the person in charge, Silva needs to out perform all of the other 5th starter candidates. Simply put, this guy isn’t going to be a Cub in 2012 and while the Cubs may be able to compete (I don’t really see it), the odds are much better that they’re more likely to contend in 2012 and beyond. In a battle of Silva vs Coleman or really anyone else, I don’t see how you don’t give the opportunity to a starter who is more likely to be here long term. Hell, I’d give Samardzija the starting slot over Silva because of this.
No trade value and by all accounts
not a friendly clubhouse even dating back to last year. Cut him, it would be another case of addition by subtraction.
I had not heard this
I am not saying it is wrong but did it ever get reported?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 7, 2011 6:29 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, there were reports last year from
one of the radio beat guys about his popularity in the clubhouse, not an instigator but just not a friendly guy. Wasn’t last year the reports of the latino rift in the clubhouse?
Also, when Silva said that he had never had an incident like that before (talking about Aram) that wasn’t entirely true. He had an incident like that when he was with the Twins.
That was only a rumor started on this forum
I don’t think that was ever reported in the mainstream media.
by JSB on Mar 7, 2011 8:42 PM CST up reply actions
What an awesome comeback!
It’s only spring training, but it still feels sweet. Cubs down 9 to nothing to the Angels in the 4th, down 12 to 2 in the 6th, but still comeback to win in the 9th 14 to 13! Would love to hear Ron Santo’s call if he were still with us, but I know he’s clicking his heels up above, even for a meaningless spring training game. Meaningless or not, it’s still Cubs baseball. Spring is finally on its way, “Play Ball!”
I wonder what the biggest comeback in the history of Spring Training is. If I’m not mistaken, this 10-run comeback is a bigger comeback than the 9-run comeback vs. the Astros in 1989, but that comeback happened in the regular season.
Jack Brickhouse: "Hey! Hey!"
Harry Caray: "Holy Cow!"
Vince Lloyd: "The Chicago Cubs are on the Air!"
Len Casper: "Oh Baby!"
Bob Brenly: "Give it to a Kid!"
Ron Santo: "YES!", "All Right!, let's do it!", "Oh No!", "Oh jeez come on!" AND...
"This Is The Year!"
by #1 iowan cubs fan on Mar 7, 2011 6:10 PM CST reply actions
Have a good trip, Al
Looking forward to reading your dispatches from the desert. Don’t forget those datelines. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Mar 7, 2011 6:22 PM CST reply actions
At lest the average attendence will increase by 1 Al.
And so it goes.
by Luigi on Mar 7, 2011 6:23 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
By the looks of the pitching so far this spring
we may be pining for the days of Rothschild by the end of April. People may not realize it but Larry is one of the best pitching coaches in the league.
by troutfishin on Mar 7, 2011 6:25 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
The guys who were bad last year, are bad this spring
I haven’t seen anything to make me think we’ll be pining for Larry at all.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
If there is any coach on a baseball team
that can have as much of an influence as the manager, it’s the pitching coach. I’m not saying Rothschild had anything to do with Silva’s success last year in spring training and the early season but Rothschild worked with him extensively.
Yes, and Silva posted a 11.12 ERA in the second half of last season
When Larry was still here.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Since I am now the defacto Silva supporter
( which to me only means noting the actual stats), it is absurd to keep claiming
Silva had an ERA “in the second half of the season” when the 2nd half consisted of FIVE starts and he was injured while the first half where he posted an ERA of 2.96 consisted of
16 starts. At least unlike some players Silva was not allowed to try to play through an injury when he absolutely sucked.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Mar 7, 2011 9:05 PM CST up reply actions
I still have him
pencilled as the fifth starter. I don’t know if that qualifies me as a supporter, but I’m just sayin.
Keep an eraser handy....
Because Silva is working on “inking” himself out. Seriously, when a guy who was injured at the end of 2010 shows up in ST 2011 out of shape, he is punching his own ticket out of town.
If you want to note the "actual" stats you should note that he has been awful
for most of the last half decade.
But by all means, focus on three months and pretend those tell the “real” story.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
You can't just remove ...
his injury problems from the situation. He was good for three months in 2010. He was bad/hurt for the rest of the season.
If he didn’t have a history of injuries before he came to the Cubs — he was bad, but healthy, and coming to Chicago made all the difference — maybe you could look at his last three months as an aberration. But the guy has been bad/injured for four seasons.
I’m not saying that we shouldn’t give him more time in ST, but that’s mostly because it doesn’t matter if he gets torched in Arizona. What I don’t understand is the optimism you and others are showing toward him when there are better options for fifth starter.
Cut him please
His is 7.5 million is a sunk cost, the Cubs are going to have to pay it regardless. The relevant decision is if Cashner gives them a better chance of winning (which I believe he does) and the 300k minimum salary guy needed to replace him on the roster. Also, the dugout incident doesn’t help his case either.
Wellemeyer>Coleman>Silva>Cashner
But we’re only in the early stages of the horse race.
MaxRam>Beef>Koyie
In the other race
I would prefer Cashner pitch in the minors
to build up his arm strength and work on his other pitches. So far, neither has been very good. All things being equal (which they never are), I want Cashner in Iowa in April. So those two are very close in my assessment.
I was perfectly willing to be Colvin-wrong (I wanted Colvin to be in Iowa last year as well. Until he forced himself onto the team by raking all March.) on Cashner. In fact, if he shows great command of all his pitches in his next two outings, I could change my mind. For now, though, Wellemeyer deserves the fifth spot. That is in pencil, and not one of those pencils that don’t erase.
I'd prefer Cashner start in Iowa too.
But if you had to make a decision today, would you really pick Silva? Cashner may not be great so far, but Silva has been an absolute train wreck. I could see him being among those first cuts on the 15th
Silva will get at least 1 more start
The early cuts are for guys needing to get innings in minor league camp. Brett Jackson, Chris Carpenter, etc…
Cutting Silva would save the Cubs a bunch of greenbacks!
Less food needed for the post-game buffet…
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
Have a safe trip, Al.
Be sure to check in once you get there!
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Mar 7, 2011 6:33 PM CST reply actions
Silva has been atrocious
But I don’t think Cubs brass has seen anything compelling enough from the other 5th starter candidates to take that type of salary hit. The guy was really good for us last year, even fading as he did.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Mar 7, 2011 7:02 PM CST up reply actions
Does the possibility even exist.....
that a really bad team out there somewhere would need someone with Major League experience and a pulse to fill the 5th starter spot in their rotation? Even if the Cubs ended up paying a good chunk of his salary, maybe we could at least get a prospect or two for him, or at the very least, a prospect and a bucket of balls. My guess is no, but if I were Jim Hendry, I would at least be on the case.
"Don't complain to me about the stormy weather, boys. Just bring the ship into port." --Steve Stone, September 2004
A really bad team, no
A really bad team would wait for someone like Looper to get cut.
Silva’s trade hopes rest on four big league starters on the same team all chartering a flight to go see Dr. James Andrews for TJS exams.
Is Ramirez (Max)
likely to get more playing time as ST rolls on? I’d really like to see him win the backup catcher job.
DEJESUS!!!
If Ramirez gets the job
What’s the situation with Castillo? Do we try to trade him? Certainly lots of depth at C in the system.
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
No
Back to Iowa he goes to get more playing time. He’s still fairly young.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
A team also really needs 3 catchers who are viable MLB players just because catchers get hurt so often
And right now, Hill fails the “viable MLB player” test.
Why attendance confusion?
I’m a younger fan, but why, after two horrendous regular seasons, is it such a surprise that the number of seats filled is down? I’d be curious in a 09-10 Spring training assessment placed alongside the 2011 numbers.
I think it may have more to do with the economy than the team.
Although, the team has something to do with it, too.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Agreed
The economy is on a slight up-tic, but not that much… It’s preventing my father and I from flying down this year. I’ve been a follower since I moved to the city 4 years ago, glad I finally joined your site.
That scoreboard at Talking Stick is huge....
… very impressive.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
It was really nice HD quality
on opening day, when it was cloudy. They showed replays on it, which I thought was pretty cool.
But, I wonder to what extent the video will get washed out on a sunny day. It does face west and the sun will reflect directly off of it.
You had me up until the picture of the Sox fan :P
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
These pictures
prove my point that I made a few days ago re: Spring Training.
It’s not just buying a $10-$25 ticket to watch an exhibition ballgame. It’s about spending time with family, friends, the players, managers, broadcasters, etc. The beauty of ST is that you actually can feel somewhat connected to the players that we love so much. Not that we don’t during the regular season, but there’s just something about ST.
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
by mikegncb34 on Mar 7, 2011 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I can completely understand...
I would love to get to spring training… To me it seems much more personal and intimate…
you can be right there with the players
R.I.P. Ronnie Santo... you will be missed...
Did having Castillo behind the plate factor in on Silva's performance at all...
He was bad, no doubt, but having a rookie behind the plate probably didn’t do him any favors either.
Has Silva had a rookie behind the plate for most of his starts over the last 4 years?
In other words, no.
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
IF KOYIE HILL WAS THE CATCHER SILVA WOULD HAVE THROWN A PERFECT GAME
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
by Musicdude10 on Mar 7, 2011 8:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
what is this i dont even
He's my Hossa
HO-HO-HO-HO-HOSSA
by jesus christos on Mar 7, 2011 8:35 PM CST up reply actions
Beef will probably get the blame and not get to play anymore....
That is the Cub way….Blame the kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope you like mid 80's Al
that’s what we’ve got waiting for you!
Just thought I'd point out
It seemed like coming into ST we had a ton of candidates for the 4th/5th spots and now it seems like we don’t have many. Glad to see Wells has done well SO FAR. Don’t mean to be jumping the gun. Here’s to hoping there’s a surprise candidate for the job. I’m looking at you Jay Jackson
"Baseball is almost the only orderly thing in a very unorderly world. If you get three strikes, even the best lawyer in the world can't get you off." ~ Bill Veeck
It would also be good to cut Silva
B/c it will also leave them a little more room when hunting down free agents.
He was a surprise last year though.. I don’t blame them if they keep him going into the regular season to see what he has. He has a very competitive edge too, so he could be working on some things and will step it up when the season begins.
Don't assault me and I won't assault you, because you don't know what I will, or won't, do. I'm going to end it with that. - Milton Bradley 2003 to Paul Lo Duca
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Mar 7, 2011 8:47 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Hooray?
We got the better part of two crappy players being traded. AWESOME
"Oh Crap"
-Famous Last Words by General George Custer
Not giving up on Silva yet.
It’s still too early. A sinkerballer’s second spring start in Arizona? Even Maddux says he was just missing. At the very least, a few more spring starts are in order. But so far Wellemeyer has pitched the best for the 5th spot.
And if spring training numbers meant anything at all, we won’t have to be concerned at all about the Cubs. They have 17 batters hitting over .300 and 12 pitchers with ERA’s under 4.00.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Mar 7, 2011 9:21 PM CST reply actions
So happy this has been cleared up for me.
Silly for me to suggest the Cubs cut Silva and eat the millions after fight and bad start to send a message that Cubs culture under Quade will change.
Now, after one more bad start… or maybe one more, time to eat the money. No message sent… business as usual, but now it’s time to eat the money. We can keep a cancer in the clubhouse, but not a cancer that can’t bleed 4 or 5 more wins out of his bloated body.
Were the errors abundant??
10
I'm gonna make my mama proud.
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Mar 8, 2011 12:59 AM CST reply actions
Nevermind.
Just saw the box score. I really hope these errors are because it is spring training. This offense is going to put up many runs, can’t allow extra outs.
10
I'm gonna make my mama proud.
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Mar 8, 2011 1:03 AM CST up reply actions
*not put up many runs.
duh.
10
I'm gonna make my mama proud.
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Mar 8, 2011 1:09 AM CST up reply actions
Cut Silva and let one of the catchers take Hill's spot.
Am I the only one that is liking what Vitters has shown thus far in Spring after a somewhat weak season last year? A glint of prospect hope.
As for Chris Archer, not looking too shabby aside from the 3 walks in 3 IP.
10
I'm gonna make my mama proud.
by theGraceyslumpbuster on Mar 8, 2011 1:09 AM CST reply actions
The big story of the game today
which didn’t make it into Al’s write-up for some reason:
The steady 25MPH wind blowing straight out to CF.
They mentioned it at one point
One of the Angels catchers had some trouble catching up to a pop-up in foul territory – I can’t remember if he dropped it for an error or if they forgave it because the wind was howling so bad that it was understandable.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
What is the downside to
keeping Silva in the mix until ST is over? I still expect he’ll be cut but it doesn’t make any sense to me to release him this soon. Besides, the hitters love him.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Today's Lineup via Carrie Muskat
#Cubs lineup vs #Rockies Tue 3/8: CF Perez, SS Castro, LF Colvin, C Soto, 3B Baker, RF Fuke, 2B DeWitt, 1B Moore, P Zambrano
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