Manny Ramirez's Hall Of Fame Chances?
Zero, says Jon Morosi. This is a good take on the whole issue.
about 1 year ago
Al Yellon
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This was funny
While I’m not a Hall voter yet, I have sympathy qualms for my colleagues who struggle to feel satisfied after completing their ballots. As journalists, we crave a full complement of facts before writing stories or developing opinions. On the steroid issue, we don’t have that. We never will. And it stings.
Baseball writers are not journalists – not at least half the clowns that currently have bylines. In addition, they are going to vote for who they want to be in the HoF regardless. The steroid issue is going to either make it a bit more difficult or a bit easier to exclude players. Manny Ramirez was still being considered HoF worthy after one steroid positive test. No one like Sosa but he was already being excluded even though he hadn’t failed any steroid tests. Ivan Rodriquez gets a total pass. Alex Rodriguez is in.
If I saw a consistency of application in the knowledge we have, I would agree with the above quote, but baseball writers are hardly using the facts presently before them to make their opinions and write stories.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 11, 2011 10:44 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
This...so much this.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 11, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
you sir should be slapped
baseball writers are as pure as the wind driven snow…they objectively look at each player’s credentials and vote on them in the context of who is already in, what their stats say in comparison to their contemporaries and what kind of ambassador to the game they were. They ALWAYS look for all of the facts and never write a story just to get page views or to sell newspapers.
by hansman1982 on Apr 11, 2011 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm amazed
that your tongue/fingers didn’t snap off and roll under the desk as you wrote that… lol
R.I.P. Ronnie Santo... you will be missed...
I'd say they're in the toilet
The BBWAA are like movie critics. Give them reasons not to like you and they’ll give you bad reviews every time.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
All I ask is some consistency from HOF voters
If you are going to skip Sosa and McGwire on rumors, you’d better skip A-Rod, Manny and Clemens, too. Although I’m not counting on it.
Manny and Clemens...
… are not getting in. ARod is an interesting question. Not sure how the voters will handle him.
Must...not...make...Jeter...handling...ARod...joke...
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
But Manny isn't getting in
only because he failed a SECOND drug test. Clemens isn’t getting in only because he’s been a complete jerk in every conceivable way since retirement and dealing with the steroid allegations.
If Clemons had a mea culpa moment a la Pettitte, I think the national discussion about Clemens HoF credentials would be different, and a mea culpa moment should have NO bearing whatsoever. But in this climate with these type of writers, it does.
That’s what makes it so frustrating and why the A-Rod question will be anything but interesting. It will be a sad and pathetic example of twisted logic to support what the writers want anyway.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 11, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed.
I thought he got off easy in the PR department after the first test failure. Add the bad stench from how he got himself out of Boston and I hope he doesn’t make it in.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Yeah-Manny may have unwittingly given some cover to those who vote for A-Rod
“A-Rod only failed one test, and he explained it!!!!”. Of course, if A-Rod fails a second test, the goal posts will move again.
Not so sure about that
Its impossible to tell now about Manny’s chances without the 2nd test, because it happened, but there were many writers who said that they wouldn’t vote for him. I think he may have eventually gone in, but certainly not on the first ballot (which is a stupid standard).
The thing about Clemens versus Pettitte, beyond the mea culpa, is that Clemens career arc was so outrageous. Pettitte started breaking down when pitchers normally break down, but Clements won Cy Young after Cy Young and had great season after great season when pretty much any other pitcher started breaking down. The only plausible answer was PEDs.
In regards to Clemens
Yes, the results later in his career were certainly PED enabled, but he was putting up some HoF caliber numbers early in his career when we can’t be certain how PED’s were involved then.
In regards to Ramirez, we don’t know how he would have fared after one failed test, but he was being given serious consideration.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 11, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Clemens
but he was putting up some HoF caliber numbers early in his career when we can’t be certain how PED’s were involved then.
How do we know when he started using… Each person must set their own standards, but to me, once a person has been found guilty of using PEDs, their entire career is called into question.
the "before and after" argument
I understand the spirit of the arguments surrounding Bonds and Clemens’ candidacies for the HOF that they were Hall-worthy players “before” their steroid use. However, I frankly find these arguments to be unconvincing.
When exactly did Bonds start juicing? how about Clemens?
Why are known PED users kept out of the Hall? Is it because their numbers can’t be trusted? or is it because they cheated and cheats don’t belong in the Hall?
How many HRs do steroids add to a players numbers?
To me, if you are going to keep players out for using PED, which I think is a good idea, then users shouldn’t get in. Period.
Eamus Ursuli!
100% gut reaction
A-rod in
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
I still find it hard to believe
That this generation of players won’t send anyone to the HOF, or that they will only send second tier stars who represent the best of the “clean” players and not any of the elite guys.
Time will tell, but I think people will look back on this as an era in which juicing was so pervasive, it’s foolish to try and separate the innocent from the guilty, and it’s even more foolish to send to the HOF those players who avoided getting caught or avoided major suspicion, while holding back their peers who were less lucky/smart in avoiding a positive test.
My best guess, guys whose careers have truly come to be defined by steroids – either because like McGwire or Sosa people don’t believe they could have done it honestly, or because like Bonds or Clemens their involvement in the investigation and scandals came to define their career at the end – will not get in.
Guys like Manny, and A-Rod who are no more tainted than most players of their era, will get in eventually. Best guess here, anyway.
Manny no more tainted than most!?!!?!!?!
He was on the verge of serving a 100 game suspension. Is is the most tainted of all.
That said, I agree that most of these tainted players will get in. They have a lot of time left on a ballot and I don’t think conventional wisdom has settled regarding PEDs in baseball. Plenty of time for opinions to change, new revelations to be made and arguments, arguments , arguments for all sides.
Griffey is one star hitter from the era that will get in without questions being raised.
There are numerous pitchers like Maddux, Glavine and Johnson.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
But maybe questions should be raised about Griffey and the rest?
They played through an era filled with PED use. It’s hard to imagine that they never did anything wrong.
What the...I don't even...
You won’t judge somebody you haven’t personally met, but then you’re lumping in everyone of the same era as a user because some others did? It seems like you’re judging pretty hard here.
I think most probably used....
but I’m not saying they should be left out of the HOF for it. I’m not personally judging whether it was right or wrong. All I am saying is that I believe most players used. It’s pretty foolish to select only a few to blame and keep out of the Hall.
Each person has to decide for themselves unless
you are going to keep every players who played during the period out of the HOF including Maddux. If Griffey took steroids then he should get his money back.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Disagree 100%
it’s foolish to try and separate the innocent from the guilty,
I disagree 100%. I think that its the real responsibility of this generation of baseball fans, baseball writers, and execs, is to separate the innocent from the guilty. We owe it to future generations of baseball fans and our youth who are the future student and professional athletes.
by dmlichte on Apr 11, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Then who's responsibility was it to do this in previous generations? Because that didn't happen.
A lot of terrible things have happened in this game’s past, and most of it seems to be overlooked.
Some of you continue to think that this game used to be pure and clean, and that Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa ruined it. That is an enormous joke.
Oh, here we go with the greenies = steroids argument.
Sorry, I don’t buy that.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Haha
Just like the media, you also don’t want to face the facts about things you overlooked in the past. It’s cheating Al. If were going to keep guys out of the HOF now for using PEDs, we need to go back and kick out damn near everybody from the greenies era.
by Husker_1 on Apr 11, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
There's an enormous difference between the two.
I’m not sure why you and others who think there isn’t can’t see this.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
It's a banned substance. It can enhance performance. It's a PED.
Thats cheating. Yet for some reason you think thats ok but steroids or HGH aren’t. You’re not very consistent Al.
I don’t care either way. I think all these guys belong in the HOF. It’s just very annoying that people like you try to blame some but not others, for doing the exact same thing. Cheating.
It is an interesting difference
What is it about steroids that make them worse than “greenies”.
This is my own bias…
To the extent that steroids make you stronger, quicker, more flexible, etc. I find them an abomination to baseball. If a fly ball that should have been caught 300 feet from home plate flies 50 feet farther and lands in the bleachers. That sucks.
That said, I admit that steroids to recover from injury/stay healthy don’t bother me as much. And this, interestingly, is more in line with what “greenies” did for players.
It is a tough one.
What’s more greenies were and are illegal, so were just as much a violation of MLB rules as steroids or HGH.
I am not in favor of keeping players from the 70’s out of the HOF for greenies, but, there I also admit the inconsistency of my own thinking.
Eamus Ursuli!
there's an enormous difference between spinach and asparagus too - but they both taste awful
I’m not sure why you can’t see that greenies and steroids are both wrong.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
The responsbility...
… falls on them. Just because they didn’t live up to their responsibility doesn’t mean that I can’t live up to mine.
Well why aren't you calling out players who used greenies?
That’s cheating too. Why are you choosing to blame certain players, but not all the cheaters throughout history?
.
There are varying shades of gray...
… the reason I care less about greenies is that they do not illegally alter one’s physical being, the way that PEDs do.
How about you actually explain your opinion.
Because what he said is still wrong. Amphetamines certainly affect you physical being, and they are most certainly illegal.
Steriods most likely hurt you’re body more, but that doesn’t make them any more wrong than greenies. You’re just covering for your favorite players who have admitted taking drugs in the past.
How about...
… you actually say why I’m wrong, other than just saying that I’m wrong.
And while you’re at it, get your head out of the sand.
no...
… you responded to another point, perhaps one previously in the post. You didn’t respond to mine, though.
You said greenies do not illegally alter someones physical being.
They do do that. They are illegal, and they alter you physically.
I'm moving on
You’re arguments are patently idiotic and your inability to see the forest for the trees here makes this pointless.
A summary of this argument:
“You!”
“No u!”
“Nuh uh!”
“Yuh huh!”
“insults!”
“No u!”
"I"m done!"
“No me!”
by Arbusto on Apr 12, 2011 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And how exactly is my head in the sand? If anything YOU do.
You want to punish players for using steroids, but you ignore previous era’s where players also cheated.
Because you seem to feel...
… That it doesn’t matter.
I have never said that greenies, etc, is not worth dealing with. I simply believe that its no where near as important. HS kids aren’t dying because of greenies.
Separate the innocent from the guilty
How? In the court of public opinion based on the observations from fans, writers and execs? Very few will ever be actually found guilty and the process by which they were found guilty is questionable at best. Leaked test results that were supposed to be anonymous and destroyed along with rumors from teammates trying to sell books aren’t legitimate sources of information.
I don’t believe there is a credible way to separate the innocent from the guilty (with the exception of idiots like Manny who got caught after the rules were in place). Because we will never know for sure, I think the Sosas, Bonds, and Clemens of the world will and should get into the HOF. History will always look at what they did with an asterisk. Let future generations make their own judgment, but we can’t and shouldn’t deny the accomplishments of an era based on half truths and rumors.
by El Borto on Apr 11, 2011 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Step One..
… Bud Selig needs to go. He is part of the problem.
I don’t believe there is a credible way to separate the innocent from the guilty
Well you have to define credible. Whether its absolute or not doesn’t mean that we should ignore that responsibility.
Let future generations make their own judgment, but we can’t and shouldn’t deny the accomplishments of an era based on half truths and rumors.
I’m not saying that we should deny the accomplishments of an era, we should, however, attempt to figure out who was at fault, and when guys are guilty, they should be treated as such.
And how do you expect to achieve this separation of innocent from guilty? And who's doing the separating?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Its up to each of us
We need to make the decisions for ourselves. And when one person is found to have a guilty test, they clearly are at fault. The issue is to not bury one’s head in the sand or say “they’re all guilty, so it is what it is”.
Will Palmeiro will get in?
500 HR and 3000 hits.
"I always tell the truth -- Even when I lie" -- Tony Montana
Hall of Fame numbers...
500 HRs…3000 hits…300 wins…3000 strikeouts. Those are automatic enshrinement numbers no matter what. You can’t separate the ones who did and the ones who didn’t. As far as Manny Ramirez…he’s one of the greatest hitters of ALL time and yet he thought he could get by using PEDs again. For that he should NOT be put in just on the fact that he thumbed his nose at “the game” AND he should be not allowed in by just plain being stupid as all hell for trying it again.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981
Maybe without the roids
he only hits 400 homeruns and has 2500 hits. I don’t know if it helped that much, but who knows?
In my opinion...
Prior to 2005 if they failed a drug test we only found out about it because some idiot sold it to the media. 2005 and after we find out about it because it’s policy, so prior to 2005 your numbers are your numbers—no asterisk. post 2005 you test positive—no Hall.
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
by epsilon on Apr 11, 2011 4:30 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I kind of like that idea.
If you obviously use when you know you’re being tested AND it is illegal, then they should be left out. There is no point in accusing people and pointing fingers when we can never be sure of who did and who didn’t use.
I don't think
Manny or any of the roid boys will get in anytime soon if ever. I honestly don’t know whether they should or not; i guess I would lean towards not letting them in.
Are people here more offended by the steroids or Pete Rose betting on games?
Sure the BWA is filled with too sanctimous blowhards to vote someone in
…but the Veteran’s committee may see these players differently when the time comes.
At least those guys know exactly how much drugs and cheating have always been a part of baseball, and hopefully have the self-awareness to realize that if they’d played in this era, many would have made the exact same decisions, and that just simply being bigger and stronger isn’t enough to make you a great ballplayer by itself.
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