Discussion: When Does Darwin become Ryan?

by Ross on Apr 13, 2011 11:49 PM CDT

The other day, Pat and Keith were talking in fawning terms about Darwin Barney. Then later, I heard Len and Bob saying similar things. I have seen people singing his praises on BCB. And it got me thinking back to 2006 when the Cubs called up Ryan Theriot.

Like Barney, Theriot had been a hard-working college player who had impressed at AAA. There were people talking about how they loved his hustle, his scrappiness. But over time, as his batting average declined and his deficiencies were revealed, his popularity plummeted. We all know what happened then. (And for what it is worth, it seems it is roughly the same career path of David Eckstein with the Angels.)

So, my question for the group is this:

At what point does Darwin Barney stop being the happy, overachieving success story and become "that overrated guy whose scrappyness and determination doesn't offset the fact that he is hitting .265 with a .303 OBP?" is there any chance he avoids this fate, or is it just a matter of time?

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

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Judging by his minor league stats...

I would say its only a matter of time. No power, very low walk rate, sounds awfully familiar.

If he can learn to walk, and keep playing a solid 2nd base, and run the bases as well as he has shown so far, then he might keep the haters off his back for a while (I have a feeling there will be plenty of other players for the fans to go after before they get around to Barney).

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 12:12 AM CDT reply actions

Minor league stats, for comparison:

Theriot: 2364 AB, .271 AVG, .355 OBP, .692 SLG.
Barney: 1696 AB, .286 AVG., .334 OBP, .708 SLG.

http://thefrustratedfan.blogspot.com/

by Jody Jody Davis on Apr 14, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions

I think those SLG's are actually OPS

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by Al Yellon on Apr 14, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions

nope

they were the worlds greatest power hitters – Hendry is too blame as to why they werent/arent able to post an OPS of over 1.000 in the bigs

by hansman1982 on Apr 14, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions

You are correct sir. They are OPS.

Still, you can see how comparable they are even in my typos!

http://thefrustratedfan.blogspot.com/

by Jody Jody Davis on Apr 14, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions

Yes, fairly comparable.

Barney’s better defense makes him a far better player IMO.

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by Al Yellon on Apr 14, 2011 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions

Absolutely true

As does Barney’s lack of TOOTBLANs.

http://thefrustratedfan.blogspot.com/

by Jody Jody Davis on Apr 14, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions

Better defense?

As stated above, Theriot is/was a good defensive secondbaseman. Which is the position Barney currently plays. I dont see a real advantage there. Although, admittedly, Barney appears like he could probably handle ss better than Theriot, which gives him more value over all.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions

I believe Barney came up as a shortstop.

He’s only playing second base because, well, for obvious reasons.

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by daver on Apr 14, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions

I understand

I just think its a little odd that everyone here is forgetting that Theriot was a 2b and moved to short because of a team need not because he was best suited for that position.

I am no Theriot lover, but i think people are rewriting history a little bit. And oddly enough they seem to be the same people who had such a difficult time seeing Theriot’s shortcomings when he was in a Cub uniform. Cub goggles I guess, and I think they are on for Barney as well.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Not entirely accurate.

Baseball Reference shows Riot played 274 minor league games at SS and 293 at 2B. So while 293 is more than 274, it is not entirely accurate to say he was a 2B who was moved to SS for the good of the team. He was playing more 2B in ’04 and ’05, but then played more SS in ’06 before coming up.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Apr 14, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions

I dont think anyone was projecting him as MLB SS, while

in the minors. He was always referred to as a 2b. I have a feeling if you were to dig deep you would find that Theriot was playing ss out of necessity in the minors too.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions

If he was being "groomed" as a 2B, they would've found someone else to force into SS.

If the Cubs had really ever thought of him as a top-notch 2B prospect, he would’ve played basically nothing but 2B.

He was being groomed as a utility IF… which is why he split most of his time between the two middle IF spots.

His bat would never play as a full-time 2B.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Apr 14, 2011 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions

Fair enough

But I would disagree about the grooming aspect. I think initially the Cubs viewed him as 2b prospect. Then when they realized he was never going to be a great (or even above average) MLB caliber 2b, they switched him over to short to make him a utility type. It was probably the only way they (I include both Theriot and the Cubs here) felt he would ever get more than a cup of coffee in the big leagues.

But just based on the eye test, Theriot always seemed much more natural at 2b. I guess that is why I have always thought of him as a 2b playing out of position at ss.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions

Certainly seemed "more natural" at 2B, though he grew up a SS.

He played SS in college. Then played only SS the rest of the year after signing in ’01.

His next two years, he split his time almost exactly down the middle between SS/2B, though in ‘02 he played 2B to start the year then SS when he was promoted mid-year. It wasn’t until ’04 and ’05 until he played decidedly more 2B.

I dunno. Let’s just hope Barney can be (stay?) better than Riot.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Apr 15, 2011 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions

Theriot was/is only a fair defensive 2B.

His mental mistakes and physical errors are things we haven’t seen from Barney.

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by Al Yellon on Apr 14, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions

Barney has played all of 41 games in his MLB career...

…isn’t it possible that the sample size hasn’t given the fans a chance to see him make mistakes.

BTW the botched tag the other night and the fly ball that dropped in right last night both looked like pretty big mental errors to me.

He is hitting right now, so everyone loves him. Theriot is now a Cardinal who ripped the Cubs, I can understand why Cub fans want to trash Theriot and praise Barney, but lets not get carried away and start thinking that Barney is something he is not.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

The runner was 6 feet out of the basepaths

and he still skimmed the runner’s shirt. I assume by botched tag, you mean botched call?

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions

And most see the ball that fell in RF as a play Colvin should have made.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Apr 14, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions

Especially since Colvin called him off....

But he can call it a mental error if it makes him feel better about calling Barney similar to Theriot.

by bdlugz on Apr 14, 2011 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions

He did?

…i have not seen anyone confirm that Colvin did in fact call him off. With regards to the botched run down. He sure didnt act like he had made the tag. Was Hall out of the basepath? It was close, but I would have gone freaking nuts if I tagged a guy right in front of the ump and he didnt call it. Barney just stood there. Hell Quade didnt even come out to argue. Not exactly the kind of reactions from a player or manager who just got hosed.

It doesn’t make me feel better to compare Barney to Theriot, i dont want another Theriot. Barney looks like a nice stop gap for an uncontending team, but he is not good enough to be a starter for a great team, and yes, he and Theriot have a lot in common, whether you want to see it or not.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions

Actually

Quade did come out and argue

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions

I thought Quade argued the call at first earlier in the game

I have tried to erase that game from my memory, so I am probably wrong on this one. But Barney still didnt act like he had made the tag. I mean most guys would be jumping up and down going crazy, he kind of just stood there.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions

Agreed, I would have expected more emotion at that point

But i would say, if you are looking for proof that he makes mental errors, this is a bit of a stretch. Let’s just give him time to develop, he could be Theriot pt 2, or perhaps he will contiue adjusting and be a cheap, effective utility infielder for us. That’d be a real asset

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions

You are right

it was a pretty big leap for me to call that a mental error.

But by the same token, it was a play that wasn’t made that should have been made. Right now, there is a pretty big love affair/honeymoon with regards to Barney. A lot of fans, I think are convincing themselves that Barney is something that he isn’t. Which is of course, yet another thing that he and Theriot have in common.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

He also reminds me

of Fontenot when he first came up. He was lighting up pitchers with high avg and surprising power, but when time came to play a full season at 2nd, well… we all know how that worked out

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions

I agree, there are definite similarities

and I don’t think that Barney is a long term option at 2nd. However, the similarities seem to be mostly positive ones, while he hasn’t shown the glaring defects that Theriots game eventually showed. That could still change, but for now Barney seems to be a solid platoon/utility infielder, which is a good type of player to keep around

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions

Now this I agree with 100%

I just hope people aren’t raising their expectations to high for the kid. He seems like a good ballplayer to have. An almost ideal bench player.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions

Agreed

And for the record, I don’t think Barney is the second coming of Ryno or anything, I’m just not ready to say that he is destined to be Theriot. Also, it’s nice to have a discussion/debate/disagreement about the team from time without it turning to name calling and the usual internet ugliness

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions

And FYI

Theriot bashing started long before he was a Cardinal

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions

I know

but it has really picked up since then. Heck, i was probably one of the first fans to take off my Cub goggles and see Theriot for what he was.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions

You must not have been reading this site last year.

There was enough Theriot-bashing to fill this site for weeks at a time.

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by Al Yellon on Apr 14, 2011 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions

Hmm

I thought most of it was directed at Lou for misusing Theriot (i.e hitting him leadoff and playing ss). It seemed like most of the criticism died down once Castro was called up and Theriot was moved to 2b. Sure when he made a bad play he was killed, which was a lot different than the previous seasons when he could do no wrong. I was on his case pretty quick into the ’09 season when it became apparent that he decided his 12% BB rate of ’08 was way too high.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions

the dude

went to arbitration, he’s always on the TV with a mike stuck in his face, and he wasn’t all that good as a shortstop.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 14, 2011 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions

yes

mental errors on the part of the ump and Colvin.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 14, 2011 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions

Theriot is not a good defensive 2nd baseman, stop with this nonsense please.

He has no range to either his right or left and is slow in turning DPs and he’s never posted a positive defensive rating in his career

by magicblue on Apr 15, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions

Darwin Barney was only in the minors until he was 24

Look at Theriot’s numbers up til age 24 and you will see Barney’s are quite a bit better

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions

When he starts double clutching and acting like nincompoop,

which is never. He may decline in BA, but he is not Theriot because he is above adverage in defense and shows baseball smarts.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Apr 14, 2011 12:16 AM CDT reply actions

Theriot is/was a fine defensive secondbaseman...

unfortunately he has spent the better part of his prime years playing out of position at short.

As for baseball smarts, I think a lot of Cub fans thought Theriot was one of the smartest players in the game when he first broke through.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions

I actually liked Theriot but I never considered him smart

or good defensively. If he can’t play the position he has than that is a HUGE problem.

"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either

by Doggie Stalker on Apr 14, 2011 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions

Then "alot of Cubs fans" were fooled

Because Theriot was a terrible baserunner from his first season on and he made dumb plays on defense as well.

Barney’s hustle for the double last night illustrates exactly why he won’t ever be compared to Theriot

I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers

by Nunyabidness on Apr 14, 2011 7:38 AM CDT up reply actions

I can't believe that i am defending Theriot, but

are you really suggesting that Theriot never had a hustle double in his tenure with the Cubs? Because that is just flat wrong. Barney made an aggressive decision and stretched a single into a double. Theriot did that quite frequently, too.

I think the comparison the author makes is very accurate, Barney and Theriot have a lot in common, let’s hope that Theriot’s at times over aggressive baserunning is one area they are different. But at this time in his tenure with the Cubs, fans had no idea he had those bad habits, and who knows what bad habits Barney has right now that haven’t been displayed yet.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions

Theriot also often stretched a single into an out...

That’s the problem.

by bdlugz on Apr 14, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions

Very true

I recognize Theriot’s faults believe me. I was always angrier when he got picked off than when he ran into an out by being too aggressive. Let’s hope that Barney doesn’t have the same bad habits that Theriot does.

I am a traveler of both time and space to be where I have been. Robert Plant 1975

by cmpody on Apr 14, 2011 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions

Another brilliant move by the great baseball mind, Jim Hendry.

"Don't shed any tears. You think about this: Here I am, the grandson of a slave. And here the whole world was excited about whether I was going into the Hall of Fame or not. We've come a long ways." BUCK O'NEIL

by HotDogDude on Apr 14, 2011 12:25 AM CDT via mobile reply actions

Which move are you referring to?

The comment seems out of place in this thread, although maybe it’s become mandatory to have at least one comment about how bad Hendry is in every thread. Did I miss a by-law somewhere?

"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin

by davidalanu on Apr 14, 2011 6:45 AM CDT up reply actions

I think it's in BCB 101.

"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson

One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola

by epsilon on Apr 14, 2011 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions

I completely agree!!!

How dare Hendry do… how could he possibly think that…

Wait, what the hell are you even referring to?

by bdlugz on Apr 14, 2011 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions

Well put. Hendry's clearly gone too far this time.

by the nth on Apr 14, 2011 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions

He's a mad man!

He must be stopped before he… umm… well… y’know… he just needs to be stopped!

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions

Hold on... let me consult my Mayan Calendar and start channeling....

Ok.. I’m getting really strong vibes here.. Darwin Barney is the chosen one, and will be MVP of the 2011 World Series.

At $300 million, I don't want Albert Pujols anywhere near the Cubs.

by DisCUBbobulated on Apr 14, 2011 12:35 AM CDT reply actions

We're gonna trade him?

I guess his value is rising..

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Apr 14, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions

To the Cardinals

For Theriot

by Limey Cub Fan Jay on Apr 15, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions

Fair question.

GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.

by shoemile on Apr 14, 2011 1:33 AM CDT reply actions

It is. When Theriot came up, I mistook his hustle and scrappiness for baseball acumen.

I was wrong. There are some players who you can look at their numbers and know that you’re getting every last bit of value from them, because they don’t cost you with baseball stupidity. It seems as though the Cubs, more often than not, have players with relatively low baseball IQ’s. This may just be a misconception on my part, but it seems that way to me. If a player regularly gets thrown out on the basepaths, doesn’t take the extra base when he can, throws to the wrong base, overthrows the cut-off man, etc., it hurts the team, even though those things don’t show up in most conventional stats.

We always hear the phrase in baseball “he does the little things”, and it usually gets poo-pooed. But I think that Theriot was an example of a player without exceptional skills, who can’t afford to not be baseball smart, because his talent can’t make up for it. Barney so far has struck me as a player who has good baseball smarts. But I’ve been wrong before.

"Enough foreplay- let's get crackin'"- Fred Garvin

by davidalanu on Apr 14, 2011 6:55 AM CDT up reply actions

i agree with all of that

me personally, I didnt hate Theriot until he went to arbitration, and i really loathed him when he made the “rivalry” comment.

"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson

One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola

by epsilon on Apr 14, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions

No, I think you're spot on here.

Theriot has enough talent that if he WERE smart about the little things he could have been more valuable to the team. The fact of the matter is, he didn’t play good defense, didn’t have great range, had no arm, and was bad enough on the basepaths to warrant some major concerns.

With that said, it would hardly shock me to see Barney batting .270 with a .320 OBP at some point this year, however, he is quite impressive so far defensively and seems to know what he’s doing on the basepaths as well.

He’s never going to be an all star 2nd baseman, but he’s not going to be a “must replace” at league minimum over the next few years.

In the end, I think you’re looking at a very strong candidate for super utility that can start 60 games a year giving guys days off at multiple positions and not completely hurt your team.

by bdlugz on Apr 14, 2011 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions

good discussion

I hope the answer is never, but you never know. I will say that if Ryan wouldnt have changed who he was and tried to be a pull hitter with power his fall from grace wouldnt have been as quick but his attitude that he thought he was better than he really was was a real put off to me as i am sure it was to other fans. The only good thing we got from Theriot was TOOTBLAN. I love barney and the way hes clicking with Castro, hope it stays this way for years to come

by Jason Matheny on Apr 14, 2011 6:08 AM CDT reply actions

Well we gave Theriot 3 years, so maybe that long....Theriot was also "not Neifi" so that also made us happy.

by TJ11 on Apr 14, 2011 6:59 AM CDT reply actions

Theriot also wasn't Cesar Izturis, which made me happy

http://thefrustratedfan.blogspot.com/

by Jody Jody Davis on Apr 14, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions

Barney at league minimum is better than Theriot a 3 mil

If Barney doesn’t get better, DJLM at league minimum will be better than Barney at 3 million.

Ryan Flaherty, Pierre La Page, Marquez Smith, and others may follow the same path.

by timh815 on Apr 14, 2011 7:25 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs

This, times 100

Theriot was a good guy to have, simply because he was good value at pre-arb rates. Barney is a good guy to have right now, because he will make the league minimum for 3 years. The list will go on until we find a legit everyday option at 2B. Here’s hoping that option is currently in our system.

by RynoRooter on Apr 14, 2011 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

I was

going to jump in with the same comment. A guy who makes solid contact and plays good defense for the league minimum is not a bad option at 2b. When he becomes a 7 figure player, move on and bring in the next guy. Nothing wrong with that plan until you have the opportunity to sign or bring up a Cano, Phillips or Uggla.

by Mak19 on Apr 14, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions

Exactly.

Further, the point when Barney becomes Theriot is when he makes $3M and forgets what got him to the big leagues in the first place.

That said, it looks like Barney is stronger fundamentally, both offensively and on the bases. So even if the bats are the same, that should give Barney an edge.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Apr 14, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions

Yes

Barney has a chance to be a good value until he hits arbitration. After that, it is very unlikely he produces enough to be worth what he will start to get paid simply by virtue of accruing service time. At the league minimum he could be a good value though.

The one caveat is that I could see Barney’s defense making him worth a couple million dollars a year. He might stick around as a utility infielder even if a better bat comes along and displaces him as the starting 2B.

by Bradsbeard on Apr 14, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions

Okay, I'm sure I will feel silly asking,

but what the heck is DJLM?

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions

Not what, who.

DJ LeMahieu.

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Apr 14, 2011 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions

Ahhh

How did I miss that one?!? Thanks

by thebluecrew1908 on Apr 14, 2011 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions

I think Barney

is already a better ball player than Theriot. So my vote is “never”. He won’t be Sandburg, but that’s ok, because Castro will be. Let Barney be Barney.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 14, 2011 8:22 AM CDT reply actions

Castro is going to be a well known Illinois poet?

by the nth on Apr 14, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions

i think he meant Frost...

"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson

One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola

by epsilon on Apr 14, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions

You may be right. Now if Jeff Stevens can change his first name to Wallace...

by the nth on Apr 14, 2011 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions

ee cummings

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 14, 2011 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions

Better player than Theriot in what year?

Theriot in 2008 was a really good shortstop for $500k. 2007 and 2009 Theriot was decent for a league minimum player.

Theriot in 2010? Not so much.

It’s not so much that Cubs fans were wrong about Theriot as that he regressed.

by JSB on Apr 14, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions

I wouldn't say Theriot regressed

It’s more like he peaked in 2008.

Look at his walk totals for his full seasons (starting with 2007): 49, 73, 51, 41. His batting averages for his full seasons: .266, .307, .284, .270. His OPS+ for his full seasons: 71, 92, 83, 70. The 2008 season (sadly) looks like his career year. I agree that he’s not so bad at a six-figure salary, and that he’s awful at a seven-figure salary.

http://thefrustratedfan.blogspot.com/

by Jody Jody Davis on Apr 14, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions

Walks

Really, I think as cmpody mentioned, it depends on whether he can learn to draw walks. He had low totals in the minors, so its definitely a skill he needs to develop. With an OBP around .350, with his defense and hustle, I think he’d be a fixture at 2B.

by John916 on Apr 14, 2011 9:01 AM CDT reply actions

an honest question...

in the minors do they play for walks, or do they play to get the base hit and get the call up quicker?

"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson

One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola

by epsilon on Apr 14, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions

You don't normally get to the big leagues by being a one trick pony.

They evaluate your complete game, and getting on base should be a major part of your offensive ability.

by bdlugz on Apr 14, 2011 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions

agreed...but

i guess we’re arguing the same side of the coin here, but if they CAN get a hit, doesnt that at least look better than taking a walk? i dont know, maybe i need to understand the minor league players mind … do you play for the team or do you play for yourself and try to get the base hit?

"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson

One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola

by epsilon on Apr 14, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions

The DIFFERENCE is

Barney has an above-average glove as where Theriot has a below-average glove. We don’t know how Barney will end up with the bat, but we have a pretty good idea. At the end of the day, Barney will be able to sustain his value overtime with great defense. I don’t know why a a lot of us here are worrying about the day that he is not longer hitting .340. He is what he is, and he should be able to provide this team with excellent defense and versatility over the next few years.

by renocubfan on Apr 14, 2011 9:24 AM CDT reply actions

Not only glove, Barney doesn't appear to have a noodle in place of an arm....

by bdlugz on Apr 14, 2011 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions

that's evolotuion for you...

"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson

One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola

by epsilon on Apr 14, 2011 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions

FWIW

UZR had Theriot as an above-average SS in 2007-2009, and Baseball-Reference had him as basically average over his entire tenure.

by JSB on Apr 14, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions

UZR doesn't count

the grounders he simply couldn’t get to.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 14, 2011 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions

Yes it does.

That’s the entire purpose of UZR.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Apr 14, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions

I thought UZR

measures the plays on balls that ARE in range, not the ones that aren’t.

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 14, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions

That's not how UZR works

It measures how many balls a typical fielder would get to. That includes balls that are or aren’t in range.

The whole purpose of UZR is that it provides an effective tool for comparing the range of somebody like Castro to somebody like Theriot. Errors don’t do that.

by JSB on Apr 15, 2011 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions

This is a fairly simple explanation

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Everything-you-always-wanted-to-know-about-UZR?urn=mlb-212311

by JSB on Apr 15, 2011 12:54 AM CDT up reply actions

Clearly this question is unavoidable.

I’m personally trying to avoid the comparison. I think Barney will retain a significant amount of value as a middle infield backup/defensive replacement if his bat goes the way of his minor league projections. I also think Darwin will keep a much lower profile than Theriot. For now, I’m just enjoying the ride.

Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!

by daver on Apr 14, 2011 9:40 AM CDT reply actions

IMHO, I think the Castro/Barney combination makes him be a better player

without Starlin, Darwin might be just another Ryan :)

"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

by cooliogirl47 on Apr 14, 2011 9:54 AM CDT reply actions

Hm...that's a good observation.

I wonder how much positive influence/inspiration Barney is drawing from Castro. Probably a lot.

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by daver on Apr 14, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions

It likely works both ways

Even last night, Castro fired off a misguided, no-look heave to 2B after making a nice play deep in the hole at SS. Barney made a pretty solid play to even catch the ball, nevertheless keep his foot on the bag for the force out (although replays show he might have actually been pulled off). I think they are feeding off each other, and although it might be bringing up the whole scrappy/gritty debate, I feel that it is a breath of fresh air.

by RynoRooter on Apr 14, 2011 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions

the question is

which one is scrappy and which one is gritty?

Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.

by drewishdrewid on Apr 14, 2011 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions

At first I thought you typed RYNO...boy I'm glad I read that wrong.

by BadDecisions on Apr 14, 2011 11:04 AM CDT reply actions

Even if he does

go the path of the Great Tootblaner I wont complain one bit…3 years of solid production from him while costing next to nothing? I’ll take it.

When I clicked on the post I was kinda hoping you mispelled Ryne…was looking forward to the hilarity that would ensue.

by hansman1982 on Apr 14, 2011 11:51 AM CDT reply actions

I had the same reaction to the title

and was a bit dissapointed when I actually read it.

by cubman987 on Apr 14, 2011 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions

Sorry...

… I do try to avoid making idiotic posts. Sometimes I succeed.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"

by Ross on Apr 14, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions

Yeah, I thought all hell was going to break loose when I read the title.

Then I saw you were being rational instead. Lame.

GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.

by shoemile on Apr 14, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions

ya loser

god, the job of fanposts/fanshots, when they dont bring up a useful/funny site, is to be bashed on for about 2 days before they fade away…had you compared Barney to Ryne, you may have won the ERIC HANNA Award this year…now you just fail

by hansman1982 on Apr 14, 2011 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions

Now I'm just all sorts of sad.

GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.

by shoemile on Apr 14, 2011 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions

ehhh

reply fail there…applies more to Ross than to you…

I said what I said and I’ll stand by it to the death.

by hansman1982 on Apr 15, 2011 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions

I'm glad I read through

Because I assumed the comparison was between Barney and Brendan Ryan.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Apr 14, 2011 12:37 PM CDT reply actions

Now this is a decent Fanpost,

relevant and coming at something from a different angle.

The thing that drove me to drink with the Riot was when he was leadoff and always swinging at first or second pitches. And then defending it.

Barney won’t drive me crazy like Riot, like others have mentioned the salary thing and expectations. Let’s see if he continues to start in 1-2 years and we start to expect more. But this year, I’m good with Barney’s approach.

"I'll tell you what's helped me my entire life. I look at baseball as a game. It's something where people can go out, enjoy and have fun. Nothing more."

by KaliCub on Apr 14, 2011 3:06 PM CDT reply actions

I think it is a unfair post, IMO

Can we give Barney about 1,000 Major League at-bats, then judge.
I like how the guy plays, I would have to say he is “Gritty 2- squared”
Seriously I like his approach, give him time.

by Grockcubs on Apr 14, 2011 9:52 PM CDT reply actions

It's hard not to like

a guy without a K this year, plays very good defense, and has a high line drive rate. Only time will tell if he flames out, but right now he’s doing an excellent job playing and hitting next to Castro. I’d be more inclined to worry about Pena, Dempster and Garza.

If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.

by tharr on Apr 14, 2011 10:22 PM CDT reply actions

Darwin is not a major league starter

Outside of strong defense, Darwin Barney has no outstanding tools.

He does not hit for power, has no stolen base ability and isn’t overly patient at the plate.

Starting him longterm at any position would be a mistake. He should be nothing more than a defensive replacement that belongs on the bench.

Hopefully DJ LeMahieu proves to be this team’s 2b of the future.

by mcalis2 on Apr 16, 2011 4:35 PM CDT reply actions

After the diving play last night

I don’t think Barney will be compared to RT any time soon.

Here

"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.

by RiskyBusiness on Apr 17, 2011 12:54 PM CDT reply actions

Darwin's advantages

Theriot criticism was mainly about his D, and his unsuitability to play short. Barney is already started at 2nd. and looks good defensively Thats a big leg up.

The second criticism was too many caught stealings. Barney doesnt run as much, but when he did he had a higher steal % in the minors than Theriot (77% vs 70%).

Finally, Darwin is starting in the majors three year earlier than Ryan did. Meaning he will have three more years of major league growth available to him. Now there are no guarantees.

by californiachicagoan on Apr 17, 2011 1:05 PM CDT reply actions