The Barry Bonds Conundrum

Regardless of steroids, it was his ability to hit that one good pitch he saw every once in awhile out of the ballpark that I’ll never forget. The man had the best strike-zone judgment I’ve ever seen.

you say yes, Al says no. It seems you would have some disagreement if you come to a completely different conclusion. just asking

Not to refute Palmerston’s point – it’s a great one BTW – but rather a general thought I have.

I realize that Gaylord Perry pitched well after 1920, but I wonder if the fact that doctoring the ball was once allowed has created a sort-of built-in leniency for him and Burleigh Grimes and others of that reputation.

There are a lot of people who made a lot of money on PEDs.

And then, only to sell his book. No to Rose, too.

PEDs don’t impact everyone equally. In fact, plenty of names in the Mitchell Report were never superstars. It’s not to say PEDs are non-effective, but I’m of the opinion that the playing field was mostly level. Much like the gambling era, we have no concrete knowledge of who did what. There’s the list of 104 users, but that was obtained via illegal search and seizure. Just on principle alone, I would prefer that list not be released to the general public simply because I fear what sort of precedent it would set for the average Joe. I won’t delve into political discussion here, so I’ll leave it at that.

So what do we know? People used PEDs. Sportswriters turned a blind eye to it once upon a time, but then became the voices that fanned the flames of demonization. It’s so bad that Jeff Bagwell was crucified for calling McGwire and Bonds great players. Given the suspicions around him, that may be enough to keep him out of the Hall of Fame. In all debates, the burden of proof should be on the one making a claim. But many sportswriters haven’t given proof about guys like Bagwell and instead claim he’s suspicious.

“But this isn’t court, so they don’t need to be considered innocent until proven guilty.” You’re right on one thing. This isn’t court. But without actual proof, such as an admission or a reliable positive drug test, all you have are suspicions and hearsay. It also means the argument doesn’t hold water, but as long as some of these people hold votes for the Hall of Fame, guys like Bagwell are going to be excluded simply because they had a lot of home runs in the steroid era. You can say Bagwell isn’t a Hall of Famer for other reasons and provide a good argument as long as the steroid issue isn’t mentioned.

When I think of how many of his homers were hit in the dead-ball era, I have to wonder what he’d have done in more recent years. Plus, he was far, far classier than Bonds on his best day.

More HR/AB than either Bonds or Aaron, and he did it in an era when homeruns weren’t hit at that pace. He had years where he out homered entire teams.

At least that’s the records for human. If you want to include chemically-enhance androids, that is a different category.

I happen to disagree.

Not because I particularly agree (he’d never receive my vote). But because the more that I learn about baseball, and the men who play or have played it, the more I come to understand that the Hall is a veritable rogue’s gallery.

I despise Bond as being the poster child of a sad era in baseball, and a terrible human being, but until baseball chooses to address it fully, selectively punishing cheaters of the era strikes me a hypocritical.

that he was using. Petitte is someone that a respect a lot for recognizing he made a mistake and then asking for forgiveness. We haven’t seen this yet and until we see this then no I do not think he should even be considered. There has been too much that has tarnished his name so far. I respect your opinion, but that is mine.

The latter gave you an energy boost. The former increased a player’s body and head size to grotesque proportions and can shrink a man’s testicles, as was testified to in graphic form by Bonds’ former girlfriend Kimberly Bell at his trial. The two things are not remotely comparable.

I was so busy replying to the previous part I forgot to address this. If side effects are the way in which you measure PED effectiveness, then HGH must be like Popeye’s spinach*. The fact is that there is no correlation between the nastiness of a drug’s side effects and its efficacy. Unless you’re somehow saying that small testicles and ginormous heads somehow help people play baseball.

*HGH is, in fact, a really poor if not completely ineffective PED. But it has some nasty side effects so it must be good.

the problem was the players union contract did not allow for testing, nor was their a fixed policy on punishment but they were both banned by baseball and illegal to distribute in most cases so players using them were violating both the rules of baseball and in most cases criminal law ( unless they had a legitimate medical reason to use them and they were dispensed by a doctor)

You can blame Bud Selig for a lot of things, but this isn’t one of them. Selig tried for years and years to push drug testing. He was fought tooth and nail by the MLBPA. This isn’t the days of Commissioner Landis when the commissioner had unlimited power. I think the drug testing program is one of his greatest accomplishments as commissioner.

so it is a non-starter.

The fact that any of the names got out bothers me immensely.

although when Santo gets in I will still say no to Barry

The gambling on the game that took place in the early days of baseball is a more valid comparison to the WWE. In professional wrestling, the outcomes of the matches are scripted. Even with PED usage, the outcomes of the games weren’t scripted. The Cardinals didn’t win a single World Series with Mark McGwire. The difference here is that PED users are still trying to win. You know the old saying? If you ain’t cheating, you ain’t trying? I’d hope so because, in the words of Herm Edwards, you play to win the game.

However, once gambling is introduced, the potential to fix the outcome of the game is there. You can’t fix the outcome of the game by taking PEDs. It just doesn’t work like that.

Did they take tests and pass? Well a lot of other people who you group into the user group did so also. Are you just going by appearance? well, thats pretty subjective also. I don’t assume anyone did or didn’t do something to help themselves out.

If you can’t provide evidence they used, you shouldn’t be able to say they used and be taken seriously. You can’t call them innocent, but that’s not the case. You can’t call them guilty either.

Other than Pete Rose, he’s the only player to led a decade in hits that isn’t in the Hall of Fame. And when you consider how good he was as a hitter and a fielder, especially during an era when everyone around him was juiced up on steroids, his accomplishments shine even brighter.

Grace to me is one of those players that embodies the game of baseball.

…they “brought the game back” by defrauding the public on a massive scale.

He was not a likeable person. If PED’s were the vogue in the 60’s and ’70’s…everyone would be looking at Steve Carlton because he was not a likeable person.

exhibits of events, moments, and players who are not HOF’s? My solution would be to make exhibits for Bonds and Rose, candidly explain all to document for history, but not enshrine either.

I’m on the fence on this issue – for the most part. You’re making me think this Friday morning.

I’m OK with McGwire and Bonds being out — they were basically power hitters who made themselves relevant with steroids.

I presume you mean McGwire and Sosa as you refer to Bonds twice:

I’m not OK with Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens being out. I just can’t justify not putting those guys in.

Where does the statement come from that Willie Mays had a Barry Bond’s attitude? I saw Willie play in person several times, grew up hearing many interviews and reading articles and never for a second did he ever come close in my mind to having a Bonds-ish attitude. But—maybe I missed it?

On the Jackie Robinson statement—you can rattle off the names of many, many great players who were psychos on the basepaths (Cobb and Rose come to mind first—remember little Mick Kelleher getting to a fist fight with Pete on a slide at 2nd?) Those same players didn’t go after any certain player—they went after everyone. How many great pitchers were head hunters? They targeted plate crowders for the most part and not individuals.

Bonds should be in.

The greater the career achivement of the Player – Bonds, Clemens, ARod – the more likely you are to want them in the Hall of Fame?

What is this? The Peter Princple of Cheating?

I would not care if not one of the guys on your list got into the HOF. It won’t change my life at all. And I don’t care which HOFer gets outed. That’s baseball’s business.

But I can’t say “There was wrong before and we’re going to ignore it now.” That’s not forward progress for baseball or society. Sorry if that hurts one person and spares another. But life is not fair.

I have to say this is the most thoughtful and well written opinion I have read on this subject.. You certainly make some good points. Well done Mr. Worf!

It’s not the “Hall of Statistics”. It has standards that are set out for voters. Bonds does not meet those standards. For me, that keeps him out.

then you have to ask – Would Bonds be the second greatest position player ever if he didn’t take PEDs? If no, watch out for the slippery slope.

… people bringing intelligent and well thought out and reasoned discussion here. All very interesting.

I have to laugh because – “I dont care about the moral issue we are discussing because of the shiney toy at the end of the hallway”

lets toss out Gaylord Perry. He cheated. He even admitted that he did.

Alcohol is a performing enhancing drug?
Babe Ruth drank alcohol.
Babe Ruth was better than any other baseball player.
Alcohol was illegal during part of Ruth’s playing career.
How is Ruth in the Hall?

it is hard to know where to begin.

1) – Why single out Bonds when we know that steroid use was rampant during that time?

2) – How can you penalize people after the fact? Can you pass a law making smoking illegal and than go arrest everybody that has smoked in the past 200 years?

3) – Really, really bad analogy. I trust you know that.

4) – Bonds never tested positive.

5) – How do you conclude that amphetamines didn’t fundamentally change the game? Do you have a background in pharmacology?

6) – Steroid use was rampant in both college and professional football and I would argue that it has an even greater impact there than it has in baseball. You gonna go in the College and Pro Football Halls of Fame and throw out everyone who gained 25 or more pounds between their Freshman and Sophomore years in college? Good luck with that.

Oh, come on. Greenies didn’t fundamentally change the game. Steroids and PEDs completely rewrote the record books between 1990 and 2007. Yes, this is a judgment call — i.e. steroids are worse than greenies — but it’s one I’m willing to make.

Here are some records that were broken during the “greenies” era:
Career Doubles (NL)*
Career hits *
Single-season HR
Career HR
Career PA (AL and NL)*
Single-season PA*
Career Singles*
Career total bases
Career strikeouts
Career no-hitters
Career stolen bases*
Single season stolen bases*

• indicates that the record was broken by an admitted user of greenies. Steve Carlton (career k’s) was named in an amphetamine scandal but it’s not clear to me if he was known to have taken them or not so I’m letting that one go.

Given what we know about amphetamines, they could have aided any of these records if used. So you can paint the modern era of record-breaking as tainted simply because you don’t want to admit the “golden era” was equally tainted, or you can just drop this silly line of reasoning.

“I used steroids because I saw one-dimensional oafs like McGwire and clowns like Sosa doing it and wanted to prove that on an equal playing field — one with steroids — I was still the best. And bite me.”

I wouldn’t have liked him, but I damn sure would have laughed at that.

It’s a slightly different version of the time Ty Cobb gathered reporters and said, “I will now attempt to hit homers” and hit something like 5 in three games (Don’t know the exact numbers) and then went back to playing the way he liked to play.