Can Starlin Castro and Darwin Barney be the Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker of their generation?
by Zeke on Apr 17, 2011 7:12 AM CDT
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PrintAlan Trammell and Lou Whitaker came up together to the Detroit Tigers in late 1977. Both started in the majors modestly and built a lasting impression on the game.
The double play combo played together for 19 seasons. Both players spent their entire careers with Detroit, a feat almost unheard of today.
Trammell hit .285 with 185 home runs and 2,365 hits and was the MVP of the 1984 World Series.
Lou Whitaker batted .276, hit 244 career homeruns and amassed 2,369 hits.
They were so good together that some, including Cal Ripken, Jr. have said that “Sweet Lou” and “Tram” deserve to be in the Hall Fame as a tandem.
So my question is this: Can Starlin Castro and Darwin Barney be the Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker of their generation?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Actually, Castro is the next Hanley Ramirez. He could be THAT good.
But unfortunately, our manager still says that it’s a “flip of the coin” as to whether he or Fukudome should lead off. That’s a big head-scratcher there. The guy just is extremely difficult to strike out, gets on base all the time, and is pretty much the only base stealing threat on the team.
Who wants to bet that Fukudome will be back in the lead-off spot within the week (just like the game after Castro had TWO TRIPLES). What would it take to coax Ryne Sandberg back? Too bad we burned that bridge….
I always thought his ceiling could be Ramirez.
But others were more conservative.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Why do you think
Quade will put Dome back at leadoff? Dome played yesterday, and didn’t bat leadoff.
I think it’s interesting that somehow it’s the team’s fault that Sandberg left. The guy has two years of managing experience at the minor league level, and yet the team burned the bridge because they didn’t promote him to the major league team manager?
Sandberg should have come up to be a base coach or MAYBE bench coach. Quade isn’t a long-term solution, we all know that, but at least he’s got SOME experience in the bigs.
Obviously, the Phillies must be burning bridges as well, since they didn’t kick Charlie Manuel to the curb.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 17, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
FOUR years of minor league managing experience.
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my mistake.
Sorry.
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
by drewishdrewid on Apr 17, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I think Starlin will hit better than Kess
and Darwin could hit around Beck’s lifetime average. Both are likely better fielders…
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
I meant for longevity's sake...
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by carmen_fanzone on Apr 17, 2011 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions
If Barney proves himself all season, they could stick around another 8-10 years.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
holy crap
people need to calm down about Darwin Barney…
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Apr 17, 2011 9:16 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
That's all I was doing. Having a little fun over the morning cup of coffee.
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
It's getting ridiculous.
We are talking about a guy who’s best season in the minor leagues was a .353 wOBA. And comparing him to a borderline HOFer and multiple-time All-Star with 75 WAR. I’d be happy if Barney hit about a .330 wOBA and played excellent defense.
by JSB on Apr 17, 2011 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps I should have posted a companion photo showing my tongue firmly planted in my cheek.
Because it was. This was just a post for a little fun and nostalgic diversion on a Sunday.
I’m not nominating either for sainthood. Yet. ;)
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
Maybe
Whether Barney is the answer at 2nd or not, it’s very refreshing to see the same tandum, Castro/Barney, out there on a daily basis. I hate platoons up the middle. It has to help both players get into a routine.
"The standard is the standard" Mike Tomlin
Nevertheless
It would not hurt to start Baker against some LHP, because he rakes against LHP.
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Let him play first then
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Where is the option of
“There’s no possible way that Darwin Barney will ever be considered in the same breath as Lou Whitaker and this is a really, really stupid question”?
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 9:56 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
that is a bit harsh, but you are 100% correct. Barney will never come close to Whitaker
the sky is the limit with Castro, but Barney projects to be alot like Ryan Theriot. That isnt bad, but Tram/Whitaker were each one half notch below Hall of Fame quality
ask not what the Cubs can do for you - ask what you can do for the Cubs.
by holy mackeral on Apr 17, 2011 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps it was a bit harsh
but it really does denigrate Lou Whitaker. Barney could be a decent starting 2bman, but that’s the limit. Whitaker was an outstanding player.
However, I do think there should be an option that would recognize that. Perhaps my wording was a bit pejorative but I couldn’t possibly answer either of the three that were presented.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Fair point. Perhaps I should have listed other options but hey,
it’s Sunday and I was only motivated so far … ;)
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
Why does it have to denigrate Whitaker?
Why not hope Barney becomes as good or some reasonable facsimile?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I'd love it.
But it is so unrealistic that if you were to believe Barney could be as good as Whitaker, you’d have to believe in fairy tales. It’s just not going to happen.
But don’t let me rain on your parade. Wish and hope all you want if that makes you feel better.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
I do believe in fairy tales, that's the thing
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
I think Trammel was HOF quality and don't know why he isn't in
Given a choice between Trammel and Ozzie Smith at SS at their peaks, I’d take Trammel every day of the week. Smith was a great fielder, but Trammel was plenty good and was a far, far better hitter. I don’t recall back flips winning a single game…..
I dig Zeke's sentiment
because I grew up on Tram and Whitaker too. It would be great if Castro and Barney became foundations for future success like Tram/Lou were for the Sparky Anderson Tigers. And hopefully the Cubs’ farm system will keep producing ML-caliber players like the Tigers’ system back then did (Gibson, Parrish, Morris, Petry, Howard Johnson).
That's my hope.
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
what about Dave Rozema? how can you leave him off this list?
ask not what the Cubs can do for you - ask what you can do for the Cubs.
by holy mackeral on Apr 17, 2011 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
sorry 'bout that, Rozey
I always thought you should have been given a fairer chance to be the #4 starter between Morris, Petry, and Wilcox back in ’84.
Don't forget HoJo and Barbaro Garbey!
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
We need a 1b with a one syllable name
So that we can filk the poem:
These are the saddest of possible words:
“Castro to Barney to ???.”
Trio of bear cubs, and fleeter than birds,
Castro and Barney and ?.
Ruthlessly pricking our gonfalon bubble,
Making a Giant hit into a double –
Words that are heavy with nothing but trouble:
“Castro to Barney to ?."
Forget all that other stuff. I gotta believe.
Castro to Barney to Pujols.
Sounds good to me.
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Castro to Barney to Zeke works for me...
Though I think I’m a tad too old for that. (Although, seeing Giambi at 1st base for the Rockies has me reconsidering my position. I’d gladly play for the ML minimum salary…)
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
It won't sound so good
when Castro will be just entering the prime of his career, Pujols will be be a league average 1bman, and the Cubs won’t have the financial resources to make up for that.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Wow.
“League average”? No. This isn’t Soriano we’re talking about, it’s the best RH hitter in baseball history.
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Exactly.
Sometimes I feel as if most of us are shellshocked by the Soriano deal.
Pujols is in a class of his own.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Sometimes I feel as if most of us are shellshocked by the Soriano deal.
That’s what I think every time I hear someone say “Don’t give Pujols all those years!”
This isn’t the Soriano deal. Not even close.
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The Pujols deal isn't the Soriano deal
Pujols is by far a better player than Soriano is. There is no doubt in my mind that Pujols may be considered the greatest right handed hitter of all time.
That being said, if you think my position is as simplistic as “Sorinao was a bad deal so I’m afraid of Pujols” you have not been reading my posts.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
If Pujols were just 2 years younger
I’d be OK with signing him to an 8 year deal. if the Cubs sign him to a 6 year deal next year, I’d be fine. What I’m not fine with a contract where we can reasonably be sure that he will under-perform it for at least 4 of the 8 years. That makes no sense.
Pujols is in a unique class, but I don’t think that the class he is in is immune to the effects of age. Look at every elite baseball player in the past 30 years (non-steroid) and show me the guy who’s skills didn’t decline and din’t decline dramatically.
Pujols is an incredible ballplayer. He deserves to be paid $30M a year, but not for 8 years. It’s stupid to go into a contract knowing that he will probably underperform for $120M of that.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Pujols is not "every elite baseball player".
He is in a class by himself.
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Well, for the Cubs sake,
you better be right. You better hope he has no injuries. You better hope that he defies the laws of physics. I’m just not convinced at this point that anyone is capable of that.
We’ll see, but I still hope against hope that the Cardinals will re-sign him and protect the Cubs from making a terrible mistake.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, there is a level of risk.
For this player, IMO, it’s worth it.
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The level of risk is 1/3 of the entire franchise value.
This is the type of deal that a team makes when a player is entering the prime of his career, not when he’s in the middle of it and subsequently leaving it.
I would do 8yrs/$240 M if he were just 2 years younger. I would do $30M for 6 years now. That, in and of itself, is a huge amount of risk to assume. The added component of his age makes this too risky.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions
You can't look at it as "1/3 of the entire franchise value".
It’s making a statement that:
- you are serious about going after top level talent
- you are willing to commit to winning
- you can tweak your biggest rival
This would create buzz and ticket and souvenir sales and would bring in revenue that way. I agree that front loading a deal like this would make it easier to do — less risk in the later years.
But for a player like this, you go for it.
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I think that 1/3 of franchise value
only goes to show just how big this one deal is. There ins’t any comparison in baseball right now to this. Not any of the deals that the Yankees have. Not any of the deals the Phillies or Red Sox have either.
On the first two points … I have no concerns that the Cubs organization is committed to both. Based on what I’ve read from you, I don’t think you have any concerns with that either. Reading this site, however, I know others do and I think it’s sad.
On the third point, I think there’s as good of a chance that our rival tweaks us with that. I just think there are better ways to spend $240M.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Your calculations here seem off
You are assuming a 10/30 deal, correct? For a total of $300M. What I believe you are missing here is that is $300M spread out over a 10-year period. The contract may be $300M guaranteed, but it does not have to be paid in one lump sum. Your 1/3rd of franchise value is not valid – it is 1/30th of franchise value per year, assuming the franchise does not rise in value. In fact, I have a hard time believing that with Pujols, the franchise will not rise in value. He will sell tickets and jerseys, perhaps more than any other player we would have on the roster aside from Castro.
If he suffers a compound fracture of both femurs on Opening Day 2012, he’s worth 1/3 of the value of the franchise. After that, the number shrinks for the next 3,652-3,653 days (depending on when he’s signed).
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I'm assuming 8yrs / $30M per
I really don’t think that anyone believes that he’ll get 10 years.
The rest of your post, though, is spot on. I hadn’t taken that into account. Thanks for the correction.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions
What was....
… your level of fervor for signig Fukudome? Pretty close to this. You weren’t exactly against the Soriano deal either.
No one is worth 10 years at $30M a year, I don’t care who it is.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
By the time he gets into his later 30's
his skills will take a hit. I simply do not believe that he will be immune to the reduction of performance that has occurred to every elite baseball player in the past 30 years.
Going back a little further to a time that I dont’ think quite compares, the guy you cited yourself, WIllie Mays did this in his later years
Age HR RBI AVG
36 22 70 .263
37 20 79 .289
38 17 58 .283
That is league average and he is one of the top 5 players of all time. Again, I just don’t believe that Albert Pujols is so incredible that he is immune to the effects of age.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Ted Williams at the same ages
Age HR RBI Avg
36 28 83 .356
37 24 82 .345
38 38 87 .388
That’s right, Williams hit .388 at age 38. He hit .328 (with a 1.028 OPS) at age 39, then had one bad year at 40 before coming back and hitting 29 HR and .316 — in only 390 PA — at age 41.
Willie Mays finally succumbed to injuries in his later years. Pujols, as a 1B, is much less likely to do that.
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60+ years ago
What would he have done is he faced a great pitcher every day. Not the same era.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Then why didn't other hitters of that era do the same thing?
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Example.
The year Williams hit .388, Mickey Mantle — another HoFer who could have had an even greater career if not for his injuries — hit .365.
No one else in the AL hit better than .321.
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I mean, seriously.
Williams had a 1.257 OPS that year. Mantle was 1.177. No one else was over 1.000.
There are some players who are head and shoulders above others of their generation. That’s who Albert Pujols is.
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He was the best player of that time
His intelligence and baseball skill was capable, even at a later stage in his career, to be able to be better than inferior pitching. I believe, that at that era in baseball, a degradation is skills wouldn’t manifest itself as much as it would today. The wear and tear of EVERY at bat now is more than the wear and tear 60+ years ago when great hitters and great pitchers could relax against some of the sub-par talent and still have enough talent to overcome the opposition.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 17, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps.
Nevertheless, I think Pujols is that once in a generation player who can do it now.
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one big difference
look at the line up, with the Cubs (unlike Mantle and the Yankees) teams likely could and would pitch around Pujols and make it moot too often
Willams FWIW didnt top 115 games after age 32 except once, and didnt top 100 multiple times during that stretch (and only twice after the age of 31 did he play over 115)
not that i am against signing Pujols, but something to keep in mind
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Keep in mind
that Ted Williams missed several seasons due to military service.
If not for that, he would have had about 3500 hits, about 2800 walks, and close to 700 home runs. He’s the greatest hitter in baseball history IMO. And Pujols is a righthanded Williams.
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not arguing that he isnt, just something to think about
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
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nut you have to admit
if we have Pujols for $30M+ and we are getting 80-110 games from him, thats not a god thing, which is what happened (minus the crazy salary) with Williams in the ages you are stating his stats from
flip side, those are some good HR and RBI totals in minimal plate appearances
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Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
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Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
but not nut***
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
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Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Williams played in the outfield his entire career
And in an era that routinely featured double-headers. Running down flyballs at 35+ requires more recovery time than playing 1B does. As a career 1B, you have to assume Pujols would see more games per season than Williams did at the same age.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
good point
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hit enter too fast
they also didnt have stretches of playing 20+ games without a day off, and a million other things we can compare and contrast about the eras. from the mound hight to the level of talent over all, and so on. the game is different, and i know that. I was only trying to point out that the numbers Al was quoting were done in a lot less games than we would want to see Pujols play in for the price tag we would need to pay for him
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
After Ted came back from Korea, he became a glorious artifact and sideshow...
…that probably helped lock the Red Sox into the sustained mediocrity they couldn’t escape until ’67, much as Cal Ripken likely hurt the Orioles for years with his own prolonged sideshow.
Anytime the performance of one great player in his final years becomes more important than the team itself, winning becomes almost incidental to casual fans, media and, very likely, teammates.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
League Average? WTF are you talking about?
1. AVG/HR/RBI is a not a good way to judge a player’s contributions, particularly a player like Mays that did so many other things well.
2. Those 3 years came in a low offensive era. If you insist on using AVG, HR, and RBI, the league batted .243 in 1968 (the middle year of the 3). The league averaged 1.47 HR per 100 PA in that year, Mays for these three averaged 3.68. The league averaged 8.53 RBI per 100 PA, Mays 13.1. Even if you pad Mays’ plate appearances to 700 per-year, with all the extra PA being outs, he’s still clearly better than league-average in these measures.
3. But why bother looking too hard at the numbers — WAR does a reasonably good job of accounting for league offensive level and playing time, plus an estimate of defensive value (though it’s a rough one — for what it’s worth, it considers Mays a pretty average CF in these years). Mays put up 4.1, 6.9, and 3.7 WAR in those years, well above the league-average starter (who puts up 2-3 WAR per year). In the two years following Mays produced 5.3 and 6.3 WAR. 5 WAR is a pretty typical all star-level performance. Mays hit that mark 3 out of 5 years between ages 36 and 40, which is pretty awesome. Some people quibble with WAR, but there’s no quibble strong enough to make Mays an average player in those years.
I don’t think individual player comparisons are all that enlightening, but calling Willie Mays a league-average player between ages 36 and 38 is way off-base.
by aldimond on Apr 17, 2011 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Suddenly, everything is clear...
this is why the Cubs should have held on to Jake Fox. It was his destiny, and Hendry has denied him his rightful place in history.
by Limey Cub Fan Jay on Apr 17, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, Derrek Lee would have filled that role, too.
Not a good enough reason to keep him.
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Castro to Barney to Loney?
Could happen…..
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Reply fail to drew
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
what?
no. no they can’t. if darwin barney gets 500 hits in his career i’ll submit to being castrated live on the field at wrigley during the seventh inning stretch.
I figure it would take him ~3,200 PAs to get that many hits
You don’t think he’ll last 8 years in the majors?
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I don't think
this is family friendly enough for wrigley
Do it under a tent in the infield
And to counteract a necessarily-unsanitary operating theater, do it as though JTU were a bull. Think of the revenue-raising opportunities for auctioning off deep-fried Unger Oysters!
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
talk about putting the carriage before the horse, wow
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Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Nope.
Mostly because Barney won’t remain a starter long term. Now Castro and my boy LeMahieu? I think they could kick ass in the mold of Rollins/Utley…just to be ridiculous and upbeat.
Please note that the OP did not specify that Barney would get 500 hits in his career *as a Cub*
His defense is enough to endear him to any number of small-market teams*. I’m going to give his huevos a little breathing room and not interpret the statement as “500 hits in his professional career”, but when Barney smacks #500 in 2018, I will flick a heavy-duty rubber band at the nearest schlub and laugh and laugh and laugh.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
* Like the Rays
/obligatory Fuld reference
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
I have no idea...
…but I have been impressed with Barney (it is very early) and Castro certainly seems to be the real deal. We’ll see if the production holds up over time (especially with Barney) and I do have some concerns over Castro’s defense.
If Castro’s bat keeps going and his defense stays the same, he may end up at 3rd base at some point in the next few years.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Trammell and Whitaker were VERY shaky in their first few years on defense.
Obviously they got a lot better with time.
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
would this make Colvin Gibson?
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Can Colvin grow a beard yet?
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
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