Carlos Zambrano's Bad First Inning Dooms Cubs To 7-3 Loss To Dodgers
What is wrong with Cubs starting pitchers this year? I mentioned in the game preview that they have the fewest quality starts in MLB, and that number remained the same (five) after today's 7-3 Cubs loss to the Dodgers.
Granted, "quality start" isn't necessarily a great benchmark, not when you can post a 4.50 ERA while having one. But in comparison to other teams, Cubs starters have been pretty bad.
Carlos Zambrano, in his last outing before this one, appeared to be turning things around, throwing eight shutout innings at the Padres. Not so today. The first five hitters against Z all reached base and all scored, and in hindsight, the game was over after that, because the Cubs' comebacks all fell short.
Now think about that. A triple by Aaron Miles? C'mon. Then Z hit Casey Blake and gave up three more hits before settling down, but by then it was too late. The Cubs did have a shot at getting back into the game in the bottom of the first, where four of the first five Cubs reached base and two scored. With runners on second and third and one out, they even had a shot at possibly tying things up. But Marlon Byrd and Alfonso Soriano struck out and didn't have good at-bats doing so.
It went pretty much that way the rest of the day. Aramis Ramirez ran the Cubs out of a rally in the sixth inning by overrunning second base while the play was right in front of him -- bad baserunning. The Cubs had 10 hits today, but no walks, and after the first inning advanced a baserunner only once, when they scored a consolation run in the seventh. Well, unless you count Geovany Soto going to second on defensive indifference with two out in the ninth inning.
Apart from Big Z's troubles -- and I am beginning to worry about this entire pitching staff -- the bullpen did a decent job today. John Grabow gave up a run, but only because of an error by Starlin Castro prolonging the Dodger sixth; Justin Berg, Kerry Wood and Marcos Mateo threw three innings and gave up just one hit and a pair of walks, although the game was basically just lurching to its conclusion by then.
Speaking of Mateo, can we end this experiment now? I don't care how "great an arm" he has, he simply cannot throw strikes at the major league level. Of his 20 pitches today, only 10 were strikes, and the only reason he didn't give up anything was the third inning-ending double play of the day, nicely turned by Darwin Barney and Castro. Bring Scott Maine up -- doesn't matter that he's lefthanded, at least he can throw strikes.
Easter Sunday kept many ticket buyers -- more than 8,000 fewer paid than yesterday, just 32,943 today -- and ticket holders -- maybe 18,000 in the house -- at home on a day which was originally predicted to be cloudy, but had sunshine through some high clouds. That's far better than the weather we're supposed to have for the rest of this homestand; rain and temperatures not breaking 50 are forecast for the next three days. Maybe a split tripleheader on Wednesday starting at 8 am? (Note: joke!) Attendance so far totals 411,535, an average of 34,295. Through 12 home dates in 2010, the Cubs had drawn 463,133, an average of 38,594. That's down 11%. There are multiple reasons for this: the earlier start to the season, the horrendous weather, and high ticket prices for some games that are keeping the casual fan away.
A few more wins and better weather would help bring people back to the ballpark. Matt Garza faces the Rockies' Esmil Rogers tomorrow evening at 7:05.
Weather permitting.
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What's wrong with the our pitchers?
Could it be no Larry Rothchild?
We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 for Hall of Fame.
by mrcubsfan on Apr 24, 2011 5:25 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Well, you may have a point.
Again, Rothschild got blame when things went bad, never got credit when things were good.
OTOH, this year’s Yankee staff is below league average in many categories.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
a pitching staff consisting of the 2003 allstar team cant get very far
With Derrick Rose on the other team, no. It’s like a crazy stalker ex-girlfriend. Everytime you tell her you don’t want to talk to her, she’ll show up at your door again. ~Danny Granger
by jesus christos on Apr 24, 2011 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Which is...
… your way of saying the pitching coach doesn’t matter?
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
i think they do matter
but a pitching coach cant make freddy garcia, colon etc pitch like they did 8 years ago with the exception of duncan
With Derrick Rose on the other team, no. It’s like a crazy stalker ex-girlfriend. Everytime you tell her you don’t want to talk to her, she’ll show up at your door again. ~Danny Granger
by jesus christos on Apr 24, 2011 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
But that's exactly what Colon and Garcia are doing
I’m not giving Rothschild credit for that… but I didn’t want him gone to replace him with nobody. I’m even less of a fan of Riggins.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions
i will admit
that i assumed garcia and colon were sucking this year
With Derrick Rose on the other team, no. It’s like a crazy stalker ex-girlfriend. Everytime you tell her you don’t want to talk to her, she’ll show up at your door again. ~Danny Granger
by jesus christos on Apr 24, 2011 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Garcia has a .69 ERA.
It’s ridiculous what ol’ Frederick is doing.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Consistency
Perhaps the Yankee’s early season struggles are, in part, an example of the benefits of consistency when it comes to pitching coaches. Rothschild is likely learning his new team, much like Riggins (though Riggins was with the organization the last few years).
I already suggested the Rothschild effect
By all that's holy, I am going to attend the 2012 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp.
by VegasCubFan on Apr 24, 2011 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I do not understand why people are staying away from the ballpark!
This team is very exciting!!!!
Tom and Jim are amazed!
by TJ11 on Apr 24, 2011 5:26 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I know one thing.
This joke of sarcasm is getting extremely old.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
by Unique on Apr 24, 2011 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 12 recs
What would be cool is if the Cubs did something to make it stop!!!!!
But they can’t seem to do this can they?
for as much as i agree with the green'd statement
i agree with the follow up as well TJ…
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
Everybody deals with the disappointment in their own way...
Of course, “T.J. Woo-Woo” does it in a way that annoys as many people as possible.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
by Ross on Apr 24, 2011 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
T.J. Woo-Woo
That’s just cold.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
TJ is hilarious
I don’t get why people get so bent out of shape about what TJ says. Some kool-aid drinkers here have no sense of humor.
He's gonna keep doing it
Long after the humor has vanished. if comedy was easy, everybody could do it.
You see what happens.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Apr 24, 2011 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
strange thing about your schtick
you could pull it on EVERY NL Central team, which is why I am trying to be optimistic.
I was always a big defender of Rothschild
but I had no idea how much the Cubs would miss him
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
I wonder how much it's Larry being gone and how much is just replacing him with an incompetent.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
How many bad pitches
has Riggins thrown this year? Grow up. If you want to blame someone, blame Quade who seems to have deferred to veterans on this team.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
How many bad pitches has Q thrown?
I’m not saying it’s Riggin’s fault. Stick to your original point, I blame the pitchers for pitching poorly.
We'll all miss you Ron.
So, you're of the opinion that we don't even need a pitching coach?
Is that what you’re saying?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions
these guys
are all in their 30"s . they need someone to tell them how to pitch? duhhhhhhhhhh?isnt greg maddux around there?
by Roman the greek on Apr 25, 2011 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't know about incompetent...
but there’s no evidence he brings anything to the table. At least pitchers respected Rothschild, for whatever that was worth.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Was going to post this
I do wonder if the loss of Rothschild is hurting this team… or perhaps even just a change in the pitching coach in general.
Or
Maybe the fact that our best starters are a year older and nearing the end of their careers, save Garza.
Doubtful
All we are really seeing is starting pitchers with flaws accentuate those flaws in the early going. Dempster is not throwing enough strikes then grooving pitches when he falls behind, Zambrano is all over the place from one start – and inning – to the next, but the bottom line is we have another roster of starting pitchers who seem to enjoy logging their 100 pitches in 6 innings or less.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Apr 24, 2011 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem with Rothschild
as Al told us many times, was he was always teaching the pitchers to “nibble”
This staff doesn’t nibble, they just ignore the strike zone altogether.
This is...
unfortunately. This is a complete lack of direction for the pitching staff as evidenced by Dempster, Russell and Wood’s handling. This is a complete assumption, but I don’t think Rothschild would allow Russell to get three starts in these circumstances.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions
The more this season unfolds, the more I think what another collosal mistake it was
to bring in Riggins. We already have a manager who is basically a rookie, why saddle him with a pitching coach who hasn’t been in the major leagues since before LaRussa came to the Cardinals?
Another bad miscalculation by Hendry.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions
That problem shall be solved soon
…if not soon enough.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Hello TJ11
Where has all the “love” gone (see above)? Hope you had a nice Easter!!!! (!!!!!)
I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".
You're missing the point
since I never bought in to the “nibbling” theory to begin with, there is nothing to compare.
But, it is obvious that the Cubs have several pitchers on the staff that have serious command issues right now. I’ll leave it to Josh and others to tell us whether this is historic with them or not.
I do know that frequently pitchers who otherwise have shown good control in the minors sometimes come up and see major league hitters square up good pitches and then they try to be too fine or to pitch away from contact. Happens all the time.
It is a big part of a pitching coaches’ job to get them to trust their stuff and it isn’t always easy.
Since Castro and Barney were put at the top
of the lineup, we’ve gone 6-3. Every time Castro has been moved to #3, we’re 0-3. Castro has a 1.238 OPS at #1 and about .600 everywhere else in the order.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
There is way too small of a sample size to see if
the correlation between the Cubs success and Castro’s batting order.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
by Unique on Apr 24, 2011 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can state unequviocally that where Castro bats had NOTHING to do with the failure
that was the two losses in this series
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I understand small sample size
but for the time being why would we disturb a guy who has huge split differentials? If you want to change at #3, there are other options. Move Fkudome or Baker to #3 depending on the pitcher.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
What don't you understand about where Castro was batting having very, very little
to do with why we lost? Do you realize what Castro would have had to do from the leadoff spot in order to make up the difference in EITHER loss this series?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions
You still haven't justified moving Castro out of the leadoff spot rather than using someone else
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
OK, fine.
Kosuke Fukudome does one thing well — get on base. Castro, as good as he’s been, doesn’t draw many walks — but he’s gonna hit for a higher average than Castro.
So it only makes sense to put your better pure hitter third and your better OBP guy at leadoff.
That seems to be a strong case
for leading off with Soto.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Honestly, I wouldn't be totally opposed.
But I know it would never happen.
Do yourself a favor...
go to your nearest stats page for the Cubs… and learn how to sort by OBP. Then come and tell me that anybody on this team should be the leadoff hitter over Fukudome, much less our power-hitting, always-swinging shortstop or our slow-footed, streak-prone catcher.
Let’s not relive the mistakes of batting our best hitter in the leadoff spot like we did with Alfonso Soriano (back when he was our best hitter).
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Neither one of those options are any better than Castro..
Regardless of the who is leading off — they are just keeping the spot warm until Jackson gets his callup.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Really?
Would you like to try and justify your response? Or should we just wait until Jackson shows up. The point is, moving Castro out of the leadoff position where he has been incredible to the #3 spot doesn’t make any sense and isn’t supported by any statistical evidence.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
I agree with you.
Starlin seems to be a natural at the #1 spot, and while we haven’t played many games, just seems to be a natural there and maybe he gets an extra bat per game.
Castro doesn't draw walks.
Castro, right now, has an insanely high and unsustainable BABIP. That will fall.
Kosuke is better suited leading off, and hitting him third is just insanity — remember what Kosuke does pretty much each year after Cinco de Mayo?
People on this site have been pleading that Kosuke lead off consistently for almost three years. Let’s give it a shot — and forgive Starlin for one bad day.
He meant Castro's BABIP
facepalm
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions
is wanting to ride the hot hand worthy of a facepalm?
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Pretty much...
especially if you’re going to contain it to just Castro. Isn’t Kosuke just as hot as far as what constitutes a leadoff hitter?
BABIP isn’t a stat to rely on. There really isn’t enough data to show that Castro is the hot hand and that he’s not capable of these stats long term in one form or another. In that case, it’s still not the best place for a player of his skillset.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kosuke has lead off in the past
His BA as #1 is .246
His BA as #3 is .282
We gave him a shot and it didn’t work. Now we have a guy who’s great at leadoff and you want to move him? That doesn’t make sense to me.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
First of all, you're using batting average ...
second of all, he hasn’t hit third enough for a significant sample size.
If Castro struggles hitting third for a sustained period of time, then you will end up being right. But, at the moment, it’s premature.
The numbers
Kosuke OBP .369 career as #1
Kosuke OBP .431 career as #3
I still can’t understand why anyone would want to move the most effective hitter out of his comfort zone. He isn’t a power hitter yet and his speed is largely negated at #3.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
"I still can't understand why anyone would want to move the most effective hitter out of his comfort zone."
How did you feel when the Cubs moved Castro from second to first?
Also, Kosuke has had fewer than 140 career PAs hitting third. His performance there is less than meaningful.
As a matter of fact
I advocated for Castro to lead off last year.
Can you admit that Castro is doing great as our leadoff hitter? Castro has started at #1 10 games and has scored 10 runs. Small sample yes but why change things that are working?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Castro has been great, period.
And if he cools off hitting third, they should move him back. But I don’t think where he’s been slotted has caused his good hitting, and I sure as hell like him hitting third better than any alternative.
places in lineups mean nothing...
skillsets do.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions
That's nonsense.
Why don’t we put the pitchers in the #4 hole? Or leading off. Would you agree that at this time castro is our best leadoff hitter?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Because they don't have the skillset for a #4 hitter
L
O
L
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions
You've yet to put forth
one bit of evidence why Castro would ever be the best leadoff hitter on this team, other than irrelevant stats. He’s the best hitter on this team period. I wish he’d have more time to work into that, but that’s just not the case. Whether or not lineup discussions are overrated… you still don’t put your best hitter in a spot where the worst hitter on the team leads into him.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't understand your position.
irrelevant stats
as opposed to your opinions. It’s hard to win a debate against someone with your approach.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Again..
put out one relevant stat that shows why Castro is the “best leadoff hitter on this team”.
The team’s record by batting order alone is irrelevant. His individual stats in any one lineup spot is irrelevant. Too many other factors go into those statistics to focus solely on Castro. Besides, both are currently based on way too small a sample size to gain anything from them.
You’ve yet to show one shred of evidence that the team operates better when Castro leads off… because Castro leads off.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I have posted numerous relevant stats.
If you choose to ignore, obviously there is no sense repeating them. OTOH, you have offered nothing but opinion. You seem to be confused with facts.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Unsustainable BABIP?
Not exactly true, at least the guys at FanGraphs don’t think so. It’s safe to say that it’s not going to stay that high all season, but realistically he could keep near it.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/starlin-castro-shining-bright/
It's great that you read that article...
But you missed this part apparently.
“I wouldn’t expect him to continue to post a .392 BABIP, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if he ends the season with a BABIP in the .350 range.”
.42 points is not “keeping near it”. And it’s highly unlikely that he’ll make that number productive unless he learns how to take a walk or two. I’m as excited about his start as anybody else, but it doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a lot of work left to do.
The best place for him to hit is either 2nd or 3rd. This is both because that’s where his skills are best used and the Cubs have possibly found better candidates to help them score runs for those spots.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Damn you, and your attentive reading
Fair enough, but his skill set is conducive to a high BABIP and I would still not be surprised to see it over .350 at the end of the year.
I would too..
but that number will make his overall numbers look disappointing unless he finds some better command of the strike zone. His differential between BA and OBP isn’t conducive to producing at the MLB level, unless you’re planning on posting a .350+ BA (highly unlikely). But even if he finds a way to make it work, it shouldn’t be as a leadoff hitter unless the Cubs have 1) no other options for leading off and 2) most importantly, a glut of middle of the order hitters.
That’s not a “good problem to have” the Cubs currently can worry about.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions
You seem to relish what ifs
without presenting any statistical data. Castro at the leadoff position has imparted the leadership this club has lacked for years. Your position is similar to the decision to make a quality setup guy Hawkins into a closer. We all know how that worked out.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Make your own argument, if you can...
don’t state my position for me. I’ve stated it well enough, thanks. Not my fault if want to cling to things you can’t prove.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions
You have stated your opinion
Regrettably it is not based upon any facts. Obviously you are uncomfortable using numbers. Tell you what. I’ll post one fact and then you post one if you can.
Batting #1 Castro has a .500 BA.
Now you, if you can.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Fact
That’s based on 48 total plate appearances. Do you really think this is enough from which to derive any meaningful conclusions?
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Fact.
Castro has 8 RBIs total hitting in that spot, while sporting that .500 BA and .717 SLG% (which is the more important stat, which you unable to understand). Imagine how many runs the Cubs could have scored if he didn’t have the pitcher hitting in front of him.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Fact
You can’t hope to be relevant yourself in an educated argument when you quote batting averages. That alone outs you as someone who can’t have an informed conversation about baseball.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions
OK, enough with the condescending attitude.
Seriously. Enough.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
He asked for facts
I’m giving them to him… and I’m not done. Delete them if you want.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, you're done.
When you start telling people they can’t have an intelligent discussion simply because they mention a specific stat, you’re done.
I won’t delete anything here. But don’t continue. Enough for now.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Sure
It’s still true.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, it is not.
If you’re going to have that condescending attitude, take it somewhere else.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
BTW... your sig line is laughable.
You can win plenty of ball games with pitchers that go 6 innings and only give up 3 runs (as long as the defense doesn’t add to that). You will lose a lot of ball games if your lineup is full of 1 for 4 hitters.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you really that childish?
What’s you next move? Maybe talk about my parents?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Depends on the skillset
Formerly known as BleedsbluinMi.
"You ain't a beauty, but hey you're alright. And that's alright with me" - The Boss
There was NOTHING wrong with the leadoff spot today.
Castro didn’t get a hit today. It happens.
Still has NOTHING to do on why we lost today.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Correct.
The Cubs offense actually did OK today. They lost because Z had a bad first inning.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
I've been beyond surprised by production out of the leadoff
Though I was certainly always in favor of Castro there relative to anyone else but the fact is they have gotten good production from Fukudome and others in the spot as well. If Fukudome or someone else can be consistent at leadoff I’m certainly fine with Castro batting #3, god knows we need someone who can drive in runs out of that spot and if it gets Byrd out of there I’m all for it.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Apr 24, 2011 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions
It all comes down to A-Ram and Pena...
if these guys are gonna keep leaving multiple runners on base, it doesn’t really matter who bats first, second or third. We found that out last year, didn’t we? Darwin frickin’ Barney has more RBIs than those to guys. That’s $25M between the 2 of them compared to Barneys $400K. Somethin’ wrong there.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981
I kind of agree ...
but Aramis has been OK. He’s getting hits, he just hasn’t had the big RBIs that Barney’s had.
Pena, whom I defended for a while, looks just terrible. I know he had the RBI single today, but still …
Happy Easter, el...
yeah…this game was over quick. Had a shot in the 1st inning, but, as usual, that ONE timely hit fails us again. Better hope for a win tomorrow night, cuz, you know who is slated to star Tuesday and that could prolong a losing streak that this team can NOT afford.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981
Happy Easter, Ed.
Actually, we’ve gotten more timely hitting this year — we just didn’t get it today. The Aramis-Byrd-Soriano strikeouts in the first were just killer.
It's gonna be a LONG frustrating summer, I do believe...
this first month was to be our easiest due to the opponents we’ve played. The month of May will be brutal. We’re right around the .500 mark NOW…can we maintain that thru May? That’s gonna be almost impossible UNLESS Pena, A-Ram and Soto heat it up some. I’m fine with Soriano…he pretty much goes to the beat of a different drummer. You know Castro and Barney aren’t gonna keep hitting like they are. Once they cool off it could get REAL ugly.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981
But Aramis has been pretty good, Ed. OPS of .815.
I agree on the rest (though blanket excuses for Sori don’t work for me).
It’s possible that pitching reinforcements will help, and our pen has been pretty good. But the offense needs help from Pena, Byrd and Soto — and we’re not going to be around .500 if Z-Demp-Garza keep sucking it up.
I’m not sure our competition has been SO bad this month. The Pirates are pretty decent, the Brewers can really hit, the Padres and Dodgers are both solid (the Padres can pitch, at least) and the Rockies are quite good. The D-backs and Astros are pretty bad, though.
We haven’t faced the Reds or Cardinals, though. That’ll be interesting.
To me that was the
turning point in the game . I expected at least one of the three to be able to get a hit . When they struck out it was like oh no here we go again . A chance to tack on more runs down the drain .
Sigh
talk about citing a stat that means nothing.
Two of those three losses were in this series, where we lost by an AVERAGE of 9.5 to 2.5
You really think Castro makes up that difference? You really think the pitchers are going to pitch better because Castro is leading off?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions
It's almost like people
are alarmed when Castro goes 0-for the game and quickly assume that it’s his place in the batting order that’s the problem.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
I'm no fan of Quade, but he makes plenty of actual mistakes
without trying to bash him for this. I would understand if either of the losses had been by one run, but they were both blowouts. Its OBVIOUS that Castro in the 3 hole had very little impact on the losses. Maybe we lose 12-7 and 7-5 instead. Hooray!
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
If you want to ignore the difference in his OPS
so be it. However, on what justification do you move him out of the leadoff spot where he has been hugely successful to the #3 slot where he hasn’t?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
IIRC
Hasn’t Castro only batted 3rd — three times? Let him get more of a sample size.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Russell has only started 2 games
How much bigger a sample would you like to see
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Horrible analogy.
Comparing a pitcher who has no business starting to a guy that is young superstar and the difference between 1st and 3rd is comparing apples to oranges.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
You still haven't
provided any statistical evidence that Castro should be moved from #1 to #3. Remember the days when Hawkins was made closer after being a quality setup man. The team then had a terrible closer and no one who could setup the closer. Right now Castro AND Barney are performing much better than we could ever expect. Why break up what works simply because the #3 hole stinks? Evidence?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
I am not going to give any "statistical evidence"
when it’s only been 3 games. Too small of a sample size.
Castro is a hell of a hitter. I think he can hit anywhere in the lineup. This is not the same as the LaTroy Hawkins situation or the James Russell situation.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Well I can give statistical evidence
that he does much better leading off than hitting anywhere else
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
But can we agree that this
had nothing to do with the Cubs loss today?
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Of course
I never said Castro had anything to with with the game today. It was all on Z. I would have liked Quade come out and talk to him earlier but the loss was strictly on Z. My focus is on Castro and Barney staying at the top and finding someone else to hit #3.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Albert Pujols would be just fine with me.
:)
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
I don't know if Pujols would be a good leadoff man
:)
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
I am with you.
Castro at 21 years of age doesn’t need to be put into a RBI position just yet. He is not Mike Stanton or Heyward. Him hitting leadoff gives juice to this team.
Exactly.
It’s perfectly effective on the road when we score in the top of the 1st.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Except Kosuke is a worse option to hit third.
Castro might not be an ideal No. 3 hitter, but Kosuke is less ideal.
Look
I’m not promoting Kosuke as the solution. However, I’d much rather have him there and castro leading off than vice versa.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
When Kosuke is doing whirlybirds during Memorial Day weekend ...
you’ll feel differently.
Now, if Castro can’t hack it hitting third for a sustained period of time, then I’ll admit you were right. But three games? It’s just not a big enough of a sample at all.
When Kosuke is spinning out
he’ll be terrible leading off also. The point is that Castro and Barney are terrific right now. So why should we break that up? Fix the problem at #3 another way. Why create a problem at #1 when that is our strength? There are alternatives.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Give Castro a little more time.
Another benefit is that Castro will probably be our No. 3 hitter for years to come (and Kosuke will not be in the org in 10 months). Think of Castro’s time there now as valuable experience.
Seriously, if the team sputters for a couple more games, I’ll admit you were right. But you’re a little fast on the comfort-zone draw, IMO.
We are playing this year
and not in the future. And right now Castro is our best leadoff man at this moment. As long as we feel we can get to the playoffs, you play your best lineup.
I still question why anyone would prefer Kosuke or anyone on the roster at #1 rather than Castro. We don’t have a problem there, only at #3. Besides, Kosuke is not a solution against LH pitchers.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
by tharr on Apr 24, 2011 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why do you think having Kosuke leading off...
is at all a problem? How many years does he have to post the best OBP on the team for you to figure out it’s not?
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions
He is and he isn't...
But where to bat Kosuke isn’t the problem. Castro should never, ever bat that close to the pitcher… ever.
I could advocate batting Kosuke third just because it would break up the right handedness and make the lineup less exploitable in the late innings.
But leading off with Barney and batting Kosuke second in front of Castro would fix this problem. If putting pressure on Castro is a problem, then that’s the manager’s job to make sure that doesn’t happen.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Do TLR one better and bat the pitcher 7th then? ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
I hate when people force me to agree with a Cardinal...
but if placates the schmucks who want Castro to remain leading off yet gets the pitcher as far away from him as possible, I could give a good god damn where you bat the pitcher.
You maximize the potential of your greatest producers… the rest is just rosterbation.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions
wow - you're giving BLou a run for his money on the crabbiness scale tonight...
Sorry to have bothered you.
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
You maximize the potential of your greatest producers
Well, leadoff hitters get the most ABs in the lineup so wouldn’t “maximizing the potential” be too keep Castro at leadoff?
Castro’s bat (right now) doesn’t play well in the 3 hole because he doesn’t have the power to go with that lineup slot. Just look at the 3 hole hitters on playoff contenders in 2011, most of these teams have a guy who can at least hit 20+ HRs and Castro can’t do that right now so leading off is probably his best position at the moment.
Nobody knows what Castro’s lineup position will be when he hits his prime years. He could bat anywhere from leadoff to 5th in the lineup, depending on his power/patience combo.
Personally, I don’t think Castro has the patience to be a traditional leadoff hitter (ala Ricky Henderson, Tim Raines, etc..) and I’m not certain he’ll ever develop enough power to consistently bat 3rd on a playoff contender, so he might end up batting 2nd or 5th depending on how much power he develops.
The only way he’ll bat 3rd in the lineup (and I don’t believe now is the time to put him there) in the future is if he can develop at least 20 HR power.
I agree with this.
But the problem is the Cubs don’t have a better option, unless they move Ramirez to the No. 3 spot. Soriano is, well, Soriano. Soto and Pena have been disappointments, and Byrd is a better No. 5 or 6 hitter.
The point’s been made that the Cubs are a team of No. 6 hitters. That’s probably a little harsh, but there’s something to it. Castro, for the moment, is the best fit to hit third against righties on a team that just isn’t very good.
The statistical evidence...
is shown by looking at who bats ahead of Castro… the pitcher! What moron would want to depend on the pitcher doing something productive so your best hitter can do his real job. Starlin is not a table setter. Stop trying to make him into one when there are far better options on this team.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm sure you know that the best hitters on baseball teams typically
occupy the leadoff and 3rd spots in the lineup, so I’m not sure what point you are trying to make by pointing out that the leadoff hitter bats in front of the pitcher. Castro is the best hitter on this team and he occupies one of the 2 most important positions in the lineup.
IMO, ARam should be batting 3rd, but he seems entrenched in the 4th spot
Thanks tharr
Quade is wrong to put Castro in the 3 hole. Please keep Castro and Barney 1 & 2 and figure out the rest. It is obvious leaving them at the top is what works.
Scott Maine?
I think Chris Carpenter needs a shot.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
by Unique on Apr 24, 2011 5:30 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
That'd be fine with me, too.
I’m in the Anyone But Mateo Club.
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Maine has 5 BB in 8.1 innings at Iowa
That’s any better control than Mateo
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
I'm not sure why you're SO anti-Mateo.
I’m coming around to your point of view about Mateo’s command, but there are other issues right now that seem to be more pressing.
Because he simply is not a major league pitcher.
He can’t throw strikes, and when he does, they get hit. Hard.
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Bob Brenly hit it on the nail today.
He said that what seperates a guy from being a minor league guy to a major league guy is being consistent and knowing what you can get from a guy majority of the time. He also said that “there are plenty of minor leaguers that can look lights out one day, and then get lit up the next day” when talking of Mateo.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Hill is very consistent
Maybe that’s why he’s still on the roster.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
I don't disupte any of that.
But he’s, basically, the 12th pitcher on staff. The fact that our 12th best pitcher isn’t very good doesn’t really make me all that upset.
That's true.
I guess my larger point is that the Cubs have bigger problems than Marcos Mateo. Al’s right that he isn’t that good, but I just think Al’s overly annoyed by Mateo’s presence on the roster.
Sorry, Al. No offense.
Hmmm.
Spoken by someone who’s overly annoyed at the presence of a certain outfielder on the Cubs’ roster.
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Well, not at the moment.
I’ve noted that Kosuke, at the moment, should be getting playing time as the leadoff hitter. He’s playing well, his OBP allows Castro to hit lower in the order and Colvin’s playing badly.
But, generally, I think it’s pretty understandable to be more annoyed with a $48 million platoon outfielder who has failed to live up to enormous expectations for more than three years than a rookie at the end of the bullpen.
Different strokes, I guess.
Oh, I understand what you are saying.
Still, we are saddled with a relief pitcher who simply does not belong in the major leagues.
The outfielder, who has not lived up to expectations — I grant you that — is still somewhat productive.
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I agree.
You know who could take Mateo’s spot? I think Kiko Calero is still available …
Cubs should have kept Scott Maine instead of Mateo.
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i feel sorry for the bullpen, having to throw 4+innings every single game
and i still dont like castro batting 3rd
With Derrick Rose on the other team, no. It’s like a crazy stalker ex-girlfriend. Everytime you tell her you don’t want to talk to her, she’ll show up at your door again. ~Danny Granger
Honest Question
What was Riggin’s resume before coming here this year?
I know he spent some time in the minors, has he EVER been a major league pitching coach?
Is he considered a good coach?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
So he was fired to make way for Duncan?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
When LaRussa was hired to manage
the Cardinal, he brought along Duncan to be his pitching coach. Riggins was moved to Minor League Pitching Coordinator.
by Josh Timmers on Apr 24, 2011 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, whether it's Riggins fault or not ...
his first season as a big-league pitching coach since the Clinton administration has been pretty underwhelming so far.
Riggins's ;)
According F&W, anyway.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
And last year
our hitting was terrible under Jaramillo. I’d put much more blame on Quade for leaving our veteran pitchers stay in games after they had obviously lost their effectiveness or starting Russell a 3rd time in a row.
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
He's been the Cardinals
minor league pitching coordinator from 1996 to 2007 before taking the same job with the Cubs.
by Josh Timmers on Apr 24, 2011 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions
It is also still amazing to me hat Quade is perfectly fine
Trotting Russel out there for a third time considering how much this team struggles when the REGULAR starters are out there. You just can’t give away wins like that.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
attendence
is down everywhere. watch the mlb highlights.i dont know where this season is heading yet and its only been about 3 weeks,but guys like pena dempster garza and the rest need to start picking it up. i doubt castro/barney will be able to piggyback 23 other guys all season.
and
i dont wanna see another fire sale again come july so get it together guys.
To Answer Your Question
What is wrong with Cubs starting pitchers this year?
Two of the 5 starters are hurt, Dempster is continuing a pattern of falling apart in the middle innings, Z is just being Z and Garza isn’t as good as we wish he is.
WWOZ.org - New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Station
'Z is just being Z'
I’m not sure what this means. If anything, Z has been something we haven’t seen before — a mediocre pitcher who doesn’t blow up when things go bad.
He’s not worth $18 million per, but he’s not the ‘same old Z’.
Your results may vary...
but to me, Zambrano’s been a mediocre pitcher for a number of seasons now. Flashes of brilliance with more than enough of today’s first inning follies to make me wary of tilting windmills such as:
appeared to be turning things around, throwing eight shutout innings at the Padres
The guy doesn’t turn things around. And even if you think he did, he’s more than likely to turn it around another 180 degrees in a couple of weeks.
It’s been happening for a few seasons now, so that’s what I meant by Z being Z.
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by Gibbon Jockey on Apr 24, 2011 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions
There was that 8-0 stretch to end last season.
I get what you’re saying. But Z looks like a calmer individual. He didn’t pitch well today, but I’m more bullish about him than I am about Dempster, at this point.
I get that as well and I don't begrudge you that notion
I’m just of the mind that the Z-bra won’t be changing his stripes.
WWOZ.org - New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Station
by Gibbon Jockey on Apr 24, 2011 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes
Even with no injuries, I think Z is still the best starting P on this staff.
by salparadise23 on Apr 24, 2011 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions
sadly
if you asked me which SP I’d pick right now on our staff to come through in a big game, I’d pick Z.
by BeltwayCubsFan on Apr 24, 2011 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I said after Z's last game...
…don’t get excited about a guy who throws a shutout in 35 degree weather. Trust me, its no fun hitting when it is that cold and that kind of weather can make a pitcher’s performance seem much better. If I’m not mistaken, the Cubs didn’t score anyone runs off the other starter either, did they?
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
It's very early
But, losing Rothschild might also be a factor.
by salparadise23 on Apr 24, 2011 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Replacing Rothschild with somebody who ...
hasn’t been a MLB pitching coach since 1995 also might be a factor.
I know this sounds like nit picking but...
…there doesn’t seem to be any urgency in the way Riggins handles his pitchers, it almost seems like he has to be cattle prodded to pay a visit to the mound.
I could care less about style.
And, frankly, Riggins might not be the reason the starters have struggled. But he certainly doesn’t appear to be a positive.
Rothschild...
…is likely a better major league pitching coach than the guy they have now, but the main issue this team will have over 162 is they simply don’t have a good enough roster.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Here's a crazy thought:
It’s not Jaramillo’s fault the hitters can’t hit and it’s not Riggins fault the pitchers can’t pitch, perhaps it’s simply because the players just aren’t good enough to get the job done.
Occam’s Razor
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Aren't our coaches
supposed to carry magic wands and pixie dust?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
I dunno if anyone saw the Quade post game conference...
But when asked if Russell will start this Tuesday — he said “absolutely”. And talked like Russell has pitched well for the last couple starts.
Please, please, please get better soon Cashner & Wells.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Totally, 100% wrong.
I mean, what games is Quade watching? This isn’t extended spring training.
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Wasn't Russell even considered an option (for starting)
out of spring training?
Quade knows Russell has NEVER been a good starter, right? He knows major league hitters will eat Russell alive as a starter, right?
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Yup
I tried making this point after Russell’s last start. Quade, for some reason, has deemed Russell to be a good candidate to be a starting pitcher. I am trying to understand Quade’s thinking here. In trying to evaluate Quade as a manager, and both his assessments and handling of pitching the early returns are not positive.
He makes Lou Pinella
seem like he wasn’t over the hill.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
at least Quade is awake
in a different world, but awake
By all that's holy, I am going to attend the 2012 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp.
by VegasCubFan on Apr 24, 2011 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I think everyone tried making this point in Spring Training.
Apparently everyone can see this but Mike Quade.
I was -1 ing Quade's comment
Is there any reason Marshall couldn’t start a few games? I know he’s more effective in relief but…
there are many many reasons why marshall shouldnt start
With Derrick Rose on the other team, no. It’s like a crazy stalker ex-girlfriend. Everytime you tell her you don’t want to talk to her, she’ll show up at your door again. ~Danny Granger
by jesus christos on Apr 24, 2011 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, so would I.
I’d put Wood in the rotation before Russell, too.
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You know if Wood was asked he might agree to do it
most of his injuries in recent years haven’t been arm related, he may be at a point in his life and career where his arm might be able to handle once again a starting pitchers role. His mechanics look much sounder and his command is much better than it used to be, it’s worth a shot.
You recall I posted about this a couple weeks ago and got laughed at.
It’s definitely worth a shot — and it would be a short term deal, just till Wells comes back.
The only downside I see is hurting the bullpen while he’s starting.
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That's why Carpenter
could be a good option. He’s a power arm himself.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
See?
We’ve solved the problem. Now, to get Hendry and Quade to see the light.
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I have it on good authority
that Carpenter is not ready to start a game.
by Josh Timmers on Apr 24, 2011 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions
That's why Carpenter
could be a good option. He’s a power arm himself.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
That's what I meant, Josh.
As a reliever. To replace Wood.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Yeah I saw that, I would have offered you some support on that...
…one because I agree 100%. I just got to busy to comment.
There's good reason for you getting laughed at when making that remark.
Wood could not handle it. I GUARANTEE you he’s had some sort of injury this last week and Quade was hiding him in the back of the bullpen. Maybe it wasn’t serious, but relief is all Wood can handle anymore.
You GUARANTEE it? prove it.
unless you’re soothsayer than I don’t think you know nor the rest of us know how Wood would fair in the starting rotation. I however think it’s worth a shot.
HE WOULD INJURE HIMSELF
IT’S NOT WORTH A SHOT. And I thought Quade was stupid.
Please don't refer to people on this site who offer up...
…up a differing opinion than yours stupid.
by troutfishin on Apr 24, 2011 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Well I find it to be an infuriating proposition.
So sometimes my emotions get the better of me. I don’t understand why this keeps coming up as a reasonable proposal. He’s not a starter anymore. We spent the last decade waiting around for Kerry Wood to get healthy again. Why end his career now?
My opinion
No way he is a future starter. Given the chance or not.
Trout – You say “he may be at a point in his life and career where his arm might be able to handle once again a starting pitchers role. His mechanics look much sounder and his command is much better than it used to be, it’s worth a shot.”
Mic – You say “HE WOULD INJURE HIMSELF”
Then trout you come back with the whole “a differing opinion than yours stupid”
Enough – you sound like Bernstein and X Caller. You both are entitled to your opinion. No one is right – although it is probably weighted strongly, at least on this site and no where else in ANY paper, one way – just read Al’s post.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
It's not worth a shot.
If the options are Russell for another start or Wood starting, I’ll take Russell.
No. it's still not worth a shot
Just because starting Russell again is idiotic, doesn’t mean we have to do something else almost as dumb.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
al, i think he's terrible but
i’d like to know how starting him would hurt the bullpen when he hasnt pitched for 8 days
by Roman the greek on Apr 25, 2011 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Because then he's not available in the 8th inning.
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If you give with quades split squad theme then it could work
Russel was asked to pitch 50-60 pitches for 4 innings. I don’t think Wood’s arm will blow up.
Also now that he throws a cutter wouldn’t he putting less strain on his arm?
Let’s see a Split squad of Wood and Shark.
I wonder if Wood has thought to himself
that he would like a shot at some point.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
I wonder if he's even already volunteered.
You know, John Smoltz had similar injury troubles to Wood, became a reliever for a while, then went back to starting.
Why couldn’t Wood do this?
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absolutely, I think his body may have finally matured to the..
… point where some of the issues he had are behind him.
What leads you to that belief?
I don’t see why you would think that, Wood has missed time in each of the past few seasons, what makes you think that anything has changed?
by neifiisgreat on Apr 24, 2011 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions
He has missed time.
But not in regards of his shoulder.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
We've had this discussion before.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2010/news/story?id=5015351
Just last year. He won’t make it this entire season as a reliever without making a trip (or more) to the DL. He definitely isn’t suited to be a starter. End of discussion. I don’t know why this is up for debate.
unless you're the...
…the arbiter of debate around here, I’m guessing the debate will continue.
by troutfishin on Apr 24, 2011 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Smoltz
didn’t have as many problems as Kerry did he?
I mean I would consider it an option. A good manager always weighs all possible options. For some reason, I don’t think Quade has done that.
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
I might be wrong on this but I think Smoltz had tommy john..
…surgery twice in his career along with some shoulder issues
Oh really.
I couldn’t recall but maybe we are overly cautious about Wood because of the Prior-Wood era. Question would be what if Wood throws well? Would you continue to pitch him or put him back in bullpen?
Tyler Andrew Davis - Born 4.5.11
A Cub fan forever more... just like his dad.
Smoltz did have TJS
He was the Braves’ closer after recovering, posting an awfully good Save% for a couple of years. The Braves had a need for a SP and he switched back. Always looked more like Glavine than Smoltz as a SP the second time ’round, tho.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
True
but that’s a little like saying the Andrea Doria didn’t have as many problems as the Titanic.
by Josh Timmers on Apr 24, 2011 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Because when Smoltz was moved back to the rotation
there was preparation for it. There was an entire spring training where he stretched out. They didn’t move him to rotation in May after several years of bullpen work.
If they really wanted to try what I think would be a lost cause, they should have tried it to open the spring.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dont like to comment on the whole
Wood to the rotation crap because – my opinion laughs at it and says its really stupid and will not happen.
But, they way you put it is more PC when comparing to Smoltz. Throwing Wood into the rotation without a proper reintroduction could/would be career threatening for Wood, Quade, Riggins and Hendry. Never going to happen.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Marshall should go to the rotation temporarily rather than Wood.
Both moves would hurt the bullpen, but with Wood you have to worry about injury, and if its temporary, I’m sure Marshall could give a few decent outings (at least better than Russell and Coleman). Trying Wood is screaming of desperation and that really would not be good for his arm.
Well these all seem like better options than Russell
Look. I understand of the huge importance of having a great bullpen, but when you’re down 5 runs after half an inning, it just seems like we need to do some fairly drastic just until Well and Cashner get back. I’m probably way off.
You know Quade is making a lot of Rookie mistakes
and he should feel lucky to be near .500. There isn’t a lot of (forgive me for using this cliche) out of the box thinking with this guy, it’s almost as if his supposedly high baseball IQ is slowly being sucked from his brain.
btw, I knew this team was going to miss the tutelage of Rothschild
I think he is thinking outside the box and that is why we are questioning him.
I can see them in the dugout saying “let’s give him one more batter, maybe he will get out of it” over and over, and so far these situations have backfired over and over. By the end of the season these situations would hopefully even out.
It's been discussed here before
Clearly, it is Quade’s style to be supportive of players in his public statements. It can be argued pro and con, but it is what it is.
Mike is not going to throw players under the bus or publicly criticize them, even if they are deserving of criticism, so why does this surprise anybody?
Sounds like he's gonna be around for a while.
Maybe I’ll get myself a Russell jersey.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
I was not in a good
mood by the end of the game and shut it off . To watch Quade continue to make excuse after excuse does nothing for my blood pressure . Russell should not be starting a major league game .
In watching the first inning...
yes, I agree Starlin made an error, but Z’s problem was compounded by Pena not making a fairly easy double play, and the fact that the Dodgers had a few well-placed grounders for hits. I see the first inning as more unlucky than Z doing too poorly, but that’s just my opinion.
Oh, and Grabow was leaving the ball up and getting rocked, even as Soto was motioning to throw it low. The catcher’s mitt was nearly scraping the dirt, and Grabow was lobbing them in belt high. I’m surprised he only gave up one.
Pena is turning out to be a joke.
..Colvin needs at bats and James Rusell should never see the starting rotation.
Pena looks like a 42 year old at the plate
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
if they can get it to game 7 the Hawks have this series...we might hear...
..about Luongo seeking mental help after this series is over.
Luongo isn't starting tonight.
Probably a smart move on Vancouver’s part.
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come join us
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
Quade
everyday makes me angry with the constant shuffle of the batting order, his handling of the bullpen and Russell starting pitching experiment.
That being said, Z, Demp and Garza need to step up. Pena and Colvin must start hitting. I am not holding my breath with Pena.
Are you holding your nose?
If a quality pitching start is 3 runs and 6 innings, then a quality hitting day is 1 for 4.
Hard for Colvin to hit
when he never plays. Understand he’s in a slump, but pretty tough to break out of it when he gets 4 at bats a week. just a thought.
Also, his 4 AB are against lefties.
Here, kid. We know you’re slumping, but maybe a pinch-hit appearance every 4 days against a righty, or 1 start a week against a tough lefty, will help you snap out of it.
In the meantime, we have to keep letting Fonzie & Dome start against all RHP.
Also, Byrd apparently is going to start 160 games in CF despite the fact that he has seemed “worn out” since last July.
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It's kind of a tough situation.
If Kosuke doesn’t play against a righty, Castro pretty much has to lead off and Byrd has to hit third. If Soriano doesn’t play against a righty, you lose the only guy who has had any power on the club this year. And if Colvin subs for Byrd, your outfield defense really suffers.
I think Colvin ought to get a few starts ahead of Pena, who looks absolutely terrible and doesn’t have the playing-time excuse Colvin does.
Colvin might be bad after getting more at-bats, but we know Pena’s bad after consistent at-bats.
Try this one...
Carlos Pena – 55 AB
Tyler Colvin – 47 AB
Why is one consistant ABs and one isnt? Aren’t they both terrible, with Colvin being even worse than Pena?
I don’t mind people jumping on both, or defending both (SSS), but at least let’s be consistent.
This actually isnt a totally accurate portrayal....
Pena- 68 Plate appearances
Colvin- 51 Plate appearances
So there is a bigger gap then you portrayed. And Pena plays pretty much everyday, much of Colvin’s appearances are in sporadic and spread all over.
Still, Colvin needs to play better
Soriano and Fukudome are flat-out hitting better than him right now. If you want to reward performance, Colvin shouldn’t be playing ahead of either player.
If Colvin plays ahead of either Pena or Byrd, the Cubs sacrifice quite a bit of defense as well.
Also true
so maybe, and it pains me to say this cause im a huge fan of his, but maybe Colvin needs to go to Iowa for a bit so he can get his swing back and play everday.
I think the best case scenario is a trade that opens up ABs for Colvin
I would love to see the Cubs trade Fukudome and bring up Brett Jackson to play CF. Then platoon Byrd and Colvin in right.
and one that has no shot of happening
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 25, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
haha Bingo.
Byrd is the most tradeable but i dont see that happening either….
Agreed, right now Quade's use of Colvin is worse than Lou's
Of course we should have expected that given his comments about “veterans”
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 25, 2011 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
From my perspective...
…it seems that Quade is one of these; “my guy” type of managers that puts a lot of weight into loyalty to certain guys. That isn’t bad, as long as you choose the right guys in the right circumstance, but a managers first loyalty should be to the team and being as “objective” as possible when it comes to putting guys in the best position to succeed.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Agreed.
Based on Quade’s offseason statements, it seemed like he wasn’t that kind of guy. But it’s now apparent that he is.
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IMO...
…to be a Hendry guy (which Quade clearly is) I would think that would be a requirement, because that is Hendry’s MO and always has been.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I can understand a GM being this way..
…. and it has helped Hendry in some ways, hurt him in others.
But a manager needs to do what’s best for the TEAM on a day-to-day basis. We’re not seeing this.
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That's your opinion...
Quade has been a coach/manager in professional baseball for decades…so shouldn’t we defer to his judgement on baseball stuff?
Kidding…I think he’s doing a terrible job.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
It all comes down...
…to the quality of the decisions a guy makes (or is capable of making) and the overall philosophy/direction he sets for the organization.
IMO, I think Cub fans deserve a whole heck of a lot better than what Hendry has delivered, especially with the resources available, that have not been utilized productively.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I'm trying not to be too reactionary
And holding off on any serious comment regarding Quade for a few more weeks. I figure that about Memorial Day is enough of a time period to have enough from which to discuss.. He is, still, a new manager and I think he should be allowed some time to settle into the role. .
by jerry morales rules on Apr 25, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
but is he really "new"
i get that it’s his first shot at the bigs, but he’s been in enough dugouts and managed enough in high A ball to not be making some of the decisions he’s making….
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
Oh, so now Quade is a "Hendry guy"?
Just because Hendry has been friends with Quade and all of his old college teammates for 20-odd years and that close-knit group of colleagues have generally done everything possible to advance each other’s careers and deferred to each other on matters of scouting, drafting, player development and in-game strategy during that time and they see each other socially and reflexively cover for each other in the press to the point of pseudo-hilarity, now he’s one of his “guys”?
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Why is this stuff just coming out now?
I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED, that none of our intrepid beat reporters talked about this stuff when Quade was hired.
which is why I choose to judge on actions rather than comments during a press tour
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 25, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
It's funny for everyone ripping Pena and saying Colvin can't hit because he hasn't had enough ABs
You do realize they’re within 5 AB of each other? They’re both playing very poorly, and they both have very small sample sizes.
It’s completely unfair to crucify one guy and defend the other. (and this isn’t at you directly, just a general comment).
Honestly, I don't really care.
He’s a major leaguer, he needs to hit better than .120 with a .196 OBP. I don’t care if every time he hits he has to face Nolan Ryan in his prime.
You say Colvin has had unfair splits, I say Pena has had a thumb injury. Why can’t we be lenient or hard on both of them equally?
Actually both are 1 for 13 against lefties
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 25, 2011 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions
theres a bigger gap between pena and colvin
see above.
17 PA over 21 games...
Is also not enough to create a mob scene for one and a viable defense for the other.
I don’t care if it’s 8 or 17, my point still stands.
I agree that they shouldnt be treated differently.
my only point was Colvin isn’t going to come out of it unless he plays some more. And Pena needs to continue to play to hit himself out of it as well..
Thats all.
Then we completely agree.
It just upsets me to see people up in arms over Pena’s performance thus far and then go on to defend Colvin due to splits or small amounts of PAs, etc.
I don’t personally care if you can’t stand either playing right now, but at least be consistent.
Agreed
I still think Pena will put together a decent campaign. once the weather turns, i think his bat will too. But both guys need to get some ABs to bust out. With Colvin, Quade jsut has to mix and match. not hide him on the bench. that or send him to Iowa so he can get some at bats to work through it.
To be fair...
Colvin’s not…
A) Being paid $10 million to be a POWER HITTER
or
B) Batting cleanup when he plays.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2011 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
C) CORRECTION....batting 5th when he plays..but you get the idea.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
So, we don't really think that Colvin is better....
….we are just pissed that Pena is getting paid a lot more to suck?
I can't speak for eveyone else...but as far as Colvin vs. Pena goes
I’m not enamored with either one. Neither one is hitting right now, but Pena is not hitting right in the middle of the lineup while Colvin is not hitting in a platoon situation. Pena was signed as a FA as a one year stop gap to be a LH power bat and he’s slugging a whopping .200 (one extra basehit so far this year)…Colvin is also not doing much of anything, but in the short amount of time he’s played, almost half of the few hits he’s gotten have been of the extra base variety.
Pena is taking crap from BCB because he’s been an abject failure at the plate for the first 20 games of this season. Colvin is getting some to come to his defense because he’s young, did OK last year and showed that he has power and we all like to overvalue our “prospects” to some extent.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah but
Isn’t it kind of silly that the years of relative success that Pena had before he came to the Cubs isn’t even being considered by some of these BCB folks?
Colvin has had 2 successful months at the major league level, but they happened to be in a Cub uniform. Pena is coming off of 4 relatively successful years, just not as a Cub.
One area, I think, where no one is complaining regarding Pena is his glove. That should mean something, shouldn’t it?
by jerry morales rules on Apr 25, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions
It should mean something.
But Pena needs to be hitting better than he is for it to mean enough.
Here's a stat line for a recent Cub season as of April 30.
19 games, 83 PA, 14-for-74, four doubles, 1 HR, 10 RBI, .189/.253/.284
Can you name the player and the year?
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Without looking, I'll say Andre Dawson 1987
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 25, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
FWIW...
… after his first 14 games in a Cubs uniform, Dawson was hitting .179/.233/.357 — 10-for-56 with 3 HR.
He then went on a huge hot streak. Next 24 games: .385/.417/.760, 9 HR, 24 RBI.
Pena probably isn’t going to do that, either. But I do think he’ll be better.
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IIRC, a grand slam to tie a game or give the Cubs a late lead is what started his run
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 25, 2011 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
This game on April 22, 1987 is the one you are thinking of.
But I included that in the “first 14 games”.
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Without looking it up
I’m going to say Derek Lee 2009.
Unfortunately expecting that out of Pena is unreasonable. Still early enough for him to rebound.
Yeah, that would be actually recent, wouldn't it?
Damn, I’m getting old.
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 25, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, that was D-Lee in 2009
Now, I’m not suggesting Pena will have a year like Lee’s 2009.
But I am suggesting that Pena will improve, hopefully to his 2008-2009 level of performance, which would be just fine.
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Unfortunately, Aramis and D-Lee both did that in April last year, too.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
True.
If Pena is really injured and it’s affecting his hitting, get him on the DL. If not, he’ll work his way out of this.
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Aramis Ramirez last year?
No, he had 3 HR. But the rest is pretty similar.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Note that I didn't say ...
that Pena wouldn’t start hitting. I said he needed to in order to stay in the lineup.
This is an old argument that you and I have had, but I don’t think it’s all that significant for the Pena argument that one guy who started off badly ended up doing well.
This is like citing the 2003 Marlins or the 2005 Astros when the Cubs are 10 games out in July. Sure — other teams have come back. But it’s probably more likely that cases like those were exceptions that prove the rule …
That is, unless you see a reason why Pena is about to bounce back. A week ago, I thought Pena was starting to hit the ball better — which is a reason for optimism. I think he’s gotten worse over the past few days, which is why 2009 D-Lee comparisons don’t mean much right now.
It's not just one guy.
Many good players have had bad starts and finished up fine.
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His downward trajectory puts those early successful years in some context, too.
His WAR for the last few years is 6.2, 4.0, 2.8, 1.0, and so far this year, negative 0.3.
He needs to start hitting the ball deep, and soon. I know it’s not quite one month down, but I don’t think anyone expected this little power out of him through April 25.
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2007 was an outlier
But he was basically the same hitter in 2008 and 2009. Only difference in those years was UZR and PAs.
If you buy that he was injured last year, there is still some hope. His numbers will always be kind of ugly because his BA will likely never be over .250, but I haven’t given up on him yet.
10 million dollar something?
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
I do understand he sucks right now, I'm not debating that.
But he’s always hit for power, I can’t imagine he’s lost it all in one year. He’ll come around at least SOME.
Seeing Pena for a while...
..now has been interesting. He has always been a big strikeout guy, but many of his swing and misses aren’t even close to making contact. He misses some pitches by a foot and doesn’t seem to make any adjustments to his swing.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
He's also hit a few right on the screws that are directly at defenders.
It goes both ways. Don’t get me wrong, offensively he’s playing like crap.
But i’m not ready to give up on him after 70 ABs.
At the end of the day...
…Pena is likely to put up numbers fairly similar to what he has in the past. He is what he is, just as Soriano was when he was signed and also Bradley.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I agree with that.
But I think they also at least understood what they got in Pena. Unlike Soriano or MB…
Although he’s off to a bad start, I’m at least happy the Cubs made an effort to sign someone after an off year predicting a bounce back instead of after leading the league in OPS and paying too much for a skill set.
Pena may not be worth 10M this year, but I feel pretty comfortable saying he’ll be close to 2.5 – 3 WAR by the end of the year, which is about 10M in value.
I'll take that bet.
If he does make it to 3.0 WAR, it will be because his 1B UZR is probably going to be pretty decent, and he may end up with one of those 2008-Fukudome “positive” WAR totals as a result.
But still, he’s only had a 2.5 WAR or better 3 times in his career, and his trend is remarkably consistent in its downward trajectory.
In the meantime, I’m just about ready to consider making Baker the everyday 1B. Oof.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
He's also had above a 2.5 WAR 3 of the past 4 years.
And an OPS+ of over 100 9 of his 10 years in the majors.
I understand he isnt a premier 1B, but he’s better than a lot of people are giving him credit for.
OK,
but we’re ready to see him actaully start playing like it.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2011 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I wish the Cubs got what Soriano was when they signed him
Unfortunately, he didn’t live up to that. Not even close.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 25, 2011 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
The first 2 years...
…he pretty much was and now age is catching up with him.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The Cubs should have Jim Cornelison do the anthem as often as possible.
He’s the best I have ever heard.
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i would not sell Messmer short
they are both amazing
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
There is none better than Wayne Messmer
I heard Wayne and his wife sing the anthem once…the two of them sounded like a whole furshugglin’ choir.
that was some weird Wayne on Friday
Messmer sang harmony and the mic mix was way off.
Come visit me inside Wrigley along the Addison side mezzanine fence straight up from 1st base.
by section229beer on Apr 24, 2011 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, that did sound strange...
… and I think you’re right about the mic mix.
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Messmer is very good.
But not even close to Cornelison.
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You make the call
Cornelison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_nQ-GNdo3E vs Messmer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxVoF-6NC5g (both pretty awesome in my opinion)
they sing at the Chicago Wolves games together
when I was in Chicago in January i had the honor to hear Cornelision and Messmer in one weekend, and it was a great thing
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
Messmer...
…was incredible in his prime, but when he had the injury to his kneck (I think he was shot), he seemed to have lost a little gusto (very understandable).
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
He was indeed shot in the neck outside of the UC...
Horrible tragedy.
I thought it was outside
Hawkeye’s Bar and Grill.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 25, 2011 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions
It was outside the old Chicago Stadium
… on April 10, 1994.
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Glad to see Wood finally pitching.
Was Quade hiding some small injury or was he just forgotten? That was 8 days without game action for him.
Really? I haven't been at the games so I wouldn't know.
If so, then that’s great that there was no injury.
He's warmed up a lot.
I don’t think he’s been hurt. I could be wrong.
If that's the case than its a case of poor management instead of an injury
Still not a plus.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Overtaxing the rest of the pen, while warming up
but not finding a way to get a guy in not managing your bullpen competently, is less of a minus?
Marcus Mateo pitched more often than one of our better arms. How is that less of a minus.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd vote for poor bullpen management.
Wood warmed up several times, and had an uneventful inning today. He looks fine.
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I agree with this.
Wood seems to be the forgotten guy in the bullpen, but why this is the case when he’s one of our better arms is beyond me. I mean, I know he was being saved for Game 2 the other day, but they didn’t even use him.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
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by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 24, 2011 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Missed a lot of spots
Including the lucky catch by Soriano – pitch meant to be WAY IN and out of the zone and went down the middle of the plate. You may have heard Al if you were sitting closer, considering few were still in the park, heard him yell “f**” after contact. Clearly audible on TV.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Not many situations that called for him the last week.
He warmed up a lot but never got into a game.
Not many situations called for an extra arm in the pen?
Really?
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Not for Wood.
Do you pitch him in a blowout? No you use Mateo, Stevens, Berg, Grabow, and Shark. The only game that called for him was the first game of the double header and he was being saved for game two. Otherwise he wasn’t needed. You don’t throw your key guys in a blowout unless they need work. Mateo, Stevens, and Berg look to be riding the Iowa shuttle this year. I think Stevens did a great job eating innings for the bullpen on Friday.
Yes...
you pitch him in a blowout if you don’t have a plan to keep him from going 3 or 4 days without an appearance. Wood and Marmol need regular work regardless of the score. The “right” situation might not come around.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I said "unless they need work"
I agree the staff is in total disarray due to not having a fifth starter. This is where trading Gorzo hurts. I think most would even be happy with Silva here to eat innings.
If the Cubs are going to
win 1 lose 1 over and over again – might as well throw out a rotation of BP use. What is the difference??
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Pitch him in a blowout?
We won the first game of Padres the double header 2-1 and lost the second game 5-4.
He pitched in neither despite almost everyone else in the pen throwing.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions
But it was clear he was being saved for the second game.
And he was not ready to go in the second game when we scored two in the eighth inning when Sori hit a two out homer. After that he did get warmed up but they did not need him due to the two “caught stealings” that let Grabow stay in the game. I am ok with not using him. I agree that everyone else had thrown, but what would we have done if we tied the game?
5-5 in the 8th vs. COL call for K. Wood.
Q went with Mateo, he got rocked, and we lost. After the game he said he would have used Wood if we’d been ahead, but not in a tie game in the 8th.
What kind of ridiculous bullpen management is that?! We can’t use our top setup man in late-inning tie ballgames? Both Marmol AND Wood are reserved for save situations?
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by D98 on Apr 25, 2011 8:15 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I can't argue with this.
Q’s bullpen management has been… not very good.
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I haven't been real happy with some of his moves, no.
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I would think...
…an influx of more talented leadership at the top of the baseball food chain is the key. After that, the manager will take care of itself.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
I don't think leadership is the Cubs problem
Wood, Reed Johnson, Byrd, Dempster, and Pena are all supposed to be good leaders. The Cubs problem is that they don’t have a very talented roster.
I wasn't speaking of...
…leadership from the players, I was speaking of the leadership of the baseball organization. That person is typically responsible for such things as putting the roster together.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Quade has
a formula or a book. sometimes the closer may need to come in in the 7th i.e. bags loaded 0 out. but they cant pad their save stats there, which is how they get the big money.
by Roman the greek on Apr 25, 2011 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions
I know this is sarcasm, but seriously, we're seeing some "by the book creep" this year.
We’ve all internalized and accepted that a team’s best reliever isn’t necessarily going to be used in the highest-leverage situations anymore, the way Goose Gossage was used in the ‘70s and ’80s. They’re going to be used almost exclusively in the 9th, when leading by 1, 2, or 3 runs.
But this is one of the first examples I’ve seen of “by the book” use of a set-up man. “Can’t use Wood unless it’s an 8th inning HOLD situation.” Seriously?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
2
With Derrick Rose on the other team, no. It’s like a crazy stalker ex-girlfriend. Everytime you tell her you don’t want to talk to her, she’ll show up at your door again. ~Danny Granger
by jesus christos on Apr 24, 2011 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions
What is your opinion of him
jesus christos? For me it is a little to early to tell, but it is all seeming status quo, and I’m tired of that. I know that the early pitcher injuries hurt but…
this team isnt good regardless
With Derrick Rose on the other team, no. It’s like a crazy stalker ex-girlfriend. Everytime you tell her you don’t want to talk to her, she’ll show up at your door again. ~Danny Granger
by jesus christos on Apr 24, 2011 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Won't matter...
he’s not making enough to where the Cubs will hesitate in firing him.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Nor did anyone know who he was
that did not follow the team fairly closely.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Especially anybody that had an opening for a MLB manager...
the Cubs were alone on that.
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by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions
we lost becaue the Dodgers piled it on
those disrespectful pricks
/sarcasm
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
by Cubbie-Tim on Apr 24, 2011 7:38 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't think that...
quality starts is a good measure to tell how good a pitcher or a rotation has been, but I think it can (like with this team) speak volumes to how BAD a pitcher or rotation has been.
New pitching coach
Rothschild got blamed a lot by many Cubs fans, but if you look at the years he was pitching coach (2002-2010) the Cubs were usually in the top 10 in pitching most of those years. It did not hurt having Wood, Prior, Zambrano and Maddux. This Cubs team reminds me of the 1987 ballclub. Maybe even 1986. They got some good, young pitchers, but they’re not developed yet. Remember, Greg Maddux wasn’t great right out of the box. It took Greg a couple of years to develop and by 1988 he was very good.
I’m most surprised that Garza has not pitched as well as I expected. It IS late April and there is still time for him to bounce back, but it’s only a matter of time before we’ve had enough of hearing the “it’s early” mantra.
Tell the truth
If Ryne Sandberg was managing this ballclub right now, do you honestly think that this team would be playing better, worse or about the same?
You think it matters what the Cubs record is?
The Cubs are not contenders this year… so it really doesn’t matter what the record would be either way. Quade is making mistakes that belie his “track record.” It would be very hard for Sandberg to be as bad, but even if he was… Sandberg could at least lean on his “inexperience” as an excuse, while the team repaired good will with the fans. I’m not blaming Quade for not keeping up with the 27 and whatever record he put up last year, and I wouldn’t give him more credit if he had bested that. It’s not about the record of the team, he hasn’t made decisions that indicate he deserves to be a MLB manager, nor does he show for one second that he’s learning from his mistakes.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions
In his defense, no where in his question did he ask about the team's record.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 24, 2011 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it was implied
especially given his preceding post.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Apr 24, 2011 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I tend to agree
Whats that thing called when “you keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome”? The Mateo/Russell thing might fall into that realm…
I didn't understand the "white-collar Cub fans", "blue-collar Sox fans" until much later in life. Harry Smith~ "For Cubs Fans Only".
Ryno's got the Iron Pigs at 9-9. But all agree that every move he's made has reminded people
of a combination of Joe McCarthy, John McGraw and and Casey Stengel.
Have the Iron Pigs become "clutch"?
I’ve heard how Ryno will teach his players “clutchness”.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I am not stating Ryno
would make this team better, Point is Quade was suppose to have all of this experience in the minors. He finished with this team at 24-13. Now it looks like he never managed a game past “A” ball.
I wanted Ryno knowing damn well this 2010 team was mediocre at best. Let Ryno grow into this job. Now I look at this division and see 85 wins will win it by most accounts, and we have Quade who is struggling to say the least. Is it early, hell yes. But this does not bode well.
Probably not.
But Quade isn’t doing himself any favors with the way he’s managing the team. I don’t know anyone who would argue “yeah the team isn’t performing well, but at least Quade is pushing the right buttons.”
For example, Byrd hitting third, Russell starting, etc…anyone care to pick up where I left off?
At this point I wouldn’t say Quade is a flop, but he needs to start changing his managing style. Quickly.
"Pounding sand since 1982...."
by cubswynn on Apr 24, 2011 10:15 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed....
Remember the other day when Dumpster started we had the bases loaded and he let Dempster hit for himself.I thought he should have pinch hit there?Then he gave up a home run the very next inning.Sooooopid imo!
This season makes me understand some of the stuff Lou did last year.
I was in the camp that was amazed that Lou kept Lee and Ramirez in the middle of the order for most of the first half despite some terrible numbers. Byrd was hitting well then, and so was Soriano.
I’m not giving Lou a blanket defense — he could have moved one of Lee and Ramirez. But in addition to being kind of out of gas, he probably figured that the Cubs couldn’t win unless those two hit well in the middle of the lineup was pretty spot on. So, he kept trotting them out there figuring they just HAD to get better at some point. This is assuming a trip to the DL was not an option.
The albatross in the middle of the 2010 order and the teeth-gnashing about Castro hitting third are caused by the same thing — a lack of premier talent. The Cubs haven’t had a good No. 3 hitter since 2009 (when Lee was still good) and the team has suffered as a result. Here’s hoping that in 2012 — either by free agent pickup or the development of somebody in house — the Cubs’ heart of the order is something that at least resembles one on a true contender.
Honestly, in far too many situations, Quade has been worse than Lou
At least when Lou was going a week without using a reliever it was a reliever no one wanted to see on the mound anyway.
At least when Lou was sticking with Derek ( a move I HATED last year) Derek was a guy who had actually been able to fill that 3-hole at some point in his career.
And as bad as Lou was last year, I don’t think he would have ever been dumb enough to go with the college of pitchers three straight times. I didn’t think it was possible but at least in the short run it appears we actually managed to downgrade.
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 25, 2011 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions
I totally agree.
I was in the Quade camp because he seemed to bring better energy. I stick by that, but more energy than Lou circa July-August 2010 could have been achieved with a 10-year-old car battery.
We can only hope that Quade is finding his sea legs. I’m still not convinced (at all) that Sandberg would have been better. But, maybe, the Cubs should have looked at other options.
What’s amazing at this point is that the Cubs have played worse than their record indicates. The rotation, in particular, has been a big disappointment even aside from the injuries. Al and I and others have keyed in on the fact that the team’s record is better than it could be as “heart” or “pluck”, etc.
But, really, that will only prove true if it’s sustainable for several months. We could just be seeing the young guys playing out of their heads. If Castro and Barney cool off and the veterans continue to struggle … eesh, it could be a very, very long summer.
You have to figure Castro and Barney will cool at some point.
The question is whether Byrd and Pena can step it up. I suspect we are seeing the best of Soriano and Ramirez. Ramirez may hit a few more home runs but overall he has been ok. Soto is an unknown but he is starting to look like an every other year player.
The other thing is you have to expect some injuries from the position players. If Ramirez goes down then they don’t have a 3 or 4 hitter.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Soto won't be as bad as he was in 2009.
But the rest of what you’re saying makes sense. Colvin is a wild card, too. But I get more bearish on him by the day.
I would give him a week at 1b and see if he could get in a groove....Can't get much worse than Pena...
But it will not happen because Pena makes too much money. Period.
Its the same reason Soriano plays during his extended cold streaks. His paycheck
If Colvin could not get into a groove playing everyday like that, he should go to Iowa. And do not bury him 8th either. I would bat him 7th in front of Soto.
Soriano, right now ...
is the only real power in the lineup. That’s why he’s playing.
And Pena’s not playing ONLY because of his paycheck. His defense is a major plus. It’s not enough of a plus to give him a blank check, but it shouldn’t be totally discounted, either.
I am saying over the last 4 years Soriano has gone into many VERY cold streaks and continued to play. That is because of his pay.
Pena does play good defense. but he is hitting .180 something coming off a .193 season…..With no power. If he is playing for defense alone why not bat him 8th?
My point is he will get a much longer leash because of his paycheck.
Please stop trying to fix the problem with common sense...
the Cubs have several sage baseball people working around the clock to rectify things like this.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2011 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions
I can't help myself sometimes....
Looking forword to that Russell start following tonights Coleman start!!!
Tom Ricketts is thrilled!!!!
I told you before Russell's 2nd start that Quade was going to give him a third.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2011 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
And I haven't heard when Wells is coming back
so could there be a 4th?
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
It's possible
I’ve heard Wells is a couple of weeks away at best. We may see Russell starting again on Saturday. After that, there are some off-days that a 4-man rotation can work around. If everything stays on track for Wells, we’ll hopefully see him replacing Russell again after the 4/6-8 Reds series.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
*again on Sunday
Calendar-reading used to be such a strong point for me, too
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
"If you'd known the players we were going to add this offseason ahead of time, you'd be doing cartwheels."
I still can’t understand Hendry’s rationale behind that quote. Is everyone in this organization high on the other guy’s exhaust?
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
That quote cracked me up when he originally said it.
Now it just makes me sad.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
I am particularly worried about the Hendry-Bush-Wilken-Quade feedback loop.
I suppose that it can theoretically be a good thing when everyone in your entire front office went to college together and they’re best buds for 20 years and so on…. but it can also be a serious shortcut to groupthink and collective ass-covering.
I don’t see how any of these guys can effectively hold the others responsible for results, or evaluate the others effectiveness, when they’ve been best buds since 1978.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
As the old saying goes...
…if everyone is thinking the same, there isn’t much thinking going on.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
One major difference -
If Lou were actually told to go with the College of Pitchers plan, he would have hated it, and he would have made that brutally clear between the lines of every painful post-game press conference.
“Look, what do you want me to do?” can also mean “my hands are tied here, and I hate this as much as you.”
Quade has been on the record as “pro-Russell-as-starter” since the day of the Gorzo trade, and a little thing like 2 or 3 massive failures isn’t going to shake that belief. Reading between the lines, it seems pretty obvious that Hendry is equally enamored with this course of action, and further, it seems pretty obvious that neither Hendry nor Quade is going to express frustration with the other at any point. They’re too close for that.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Why is it that neither of those men can admit what the rest of us can clearly see?
That the College of Pitchers is a failure.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
...

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm almost afraid to ask where you found this.
I didn't believe it last August, but it turns out that love survives.
State high point count: 3/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Apr 25, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Does than mean she doesn't need to wipe?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Is the 1st letter in her name
purposely not capitalized??
Tyra Banks is an absolute dummy
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Not if you don't eat 4 rolls of toilet paper/day, you aren't.
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 25, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I hope she's at least eating the good stuff.
like Charmin for instance. Any lesser brand would be weird!
Oh, and it's only per week
I suppose per day would be ridiculous, too.
by Shanghai Badger on Apr 25, 2011 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that when you're the one who comes up with the plan, you're less willing to admit defeat.
All the way back in January, when they traded Gorzellanny, they’ve talked up the idea of Russell starting games.
It seems pretty obvious that Hendry, Quade, or (most likely) both of them believed that Russell had starter potential prior to trading Gorz.
And if Hendry is anything, he is a man willing to follow a strategy for far, far, longer than most of us.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I disagree.
The Cubs decided in ST that Russell wasn’t going to start. Hell, Looper was ahead of him on the depth chart based on the innings he got in ST. The following had to happen — at about the same time — to put Russell in the rotation.
1) Wells goes down
2) Cashner goes down
3) Silva pitches poorly and proves to be a douche bag
4) Looper flames out and retires
5) Wellemyer gets hurt
The Cubs didn’t trade Gorzo and slot Russell in the rotation. Russell was mentioned as one of six candidates (Coleman was in there, too) for TWO jobs — or really, one of five candidates for one job, if you figure Wells was pretty much a lock.
Did Hendry and Quade believe Russell had “starter potential”? I guess you could say so, but only to the extent that they believed Looper had starter potential — which is to say and potential that they identified had to be very limited.
Hendry and Quade dropped the ball AFTER the injuries to Wells and Cashner, and you can criticize them for trading Gorzo because he was the only decent left-handed option. But I really don’t think that Russell’s presence in the rotation now indicates Quade and Hendry were that far off in assessing his talents.
Right now, I'd rather drag Looper out of retirement and start him, than see Russell start another game.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
He also said
that if he did not make the rotation out of spring training he was certainly done.
It seems he has made his piece and will enjoy retirement. He had an ok career and made over 24 million doing it. He has two of his own kids and a little girl he adopted from China. Just from an outside opinion I would say are no his man focus.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
*peace and *now his main
Type better HAMMER!!
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
it’s possible Looper hasn’t thrown in three weeks.
It could be argued that Russell hasn’t, either.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Ha. True.
I’d really like an update on Doug Davis and/or Wellemyer.
They're both "close to returning"....
/2004
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2011 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I bet Wells is back the second week of May.
Cashner? I wouldn’t be shocked if he doesn’t pitch again before the ASB. The Cubs will be very careful.
I know we've been discussing this for a while, but I doubt it.
He still hasn’t done anything more than play light catch from 60 feet. Even if he’s throwing off a mound by next week, it’s a lot to ask for him to be throwing in MLB games by the week following. I’d expect a minor league appearance, and all of this is barring setbacks.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
I'm guessing if Wellemeyer were ready, he'd be starting tomorrow.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
he's thrown...
pitched is the word we’re questioning…
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
Quade specifically mentioned Russell - and ONLY Russell - the day Gorzo was traded.
That’s what I’m getting at – as early as January, you had some inkling that Hendry/Quade thought he was capable of starting.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
And they dismissed that possibility in ST.
That’s what I’m getting at. An extraordinary set of circumstances put James Russell into the rotation.
They obviously didn't "dismiss" it. He didn't win the job.
The fact that he was, and is, still considered a possibility is the problem.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
They did dismiss it...
… by not starting Russell in spring training. At all.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
I'm sure they realize that it has been a failure so far
The question becomes whether they think there’s a better option for the future and whether they think that Russell will improve going forward.
by jerry morales rules on Apr 25, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
It's also possible that they think it's the best option available.
Diamond got shelled yesterday, and the good pitching prospects are a couple rungs away. We’re all assuming that Quade has misplaced faith in Russell. Maybe he just realizes that all the other options are really, really bad.
The thing that bothers me most about "Russell as a starter"
Is that there was no clear plan. Quade announced he’d like to try him as a starter in the spring, then never did it. Had he done it, perhaps he would have seen more clearly that Russell is not and has never been a good MLB starting pitcher
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 25, 2011 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
So what your saying is that there is no MASTER PLAN?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Apr 25, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
If there is one, it's one of the worst I've ever seen
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
by Nunyabidness on Apr 25, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
the master plan is this...
to win the world series.
“we are currently taking suggestions…”
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
Would love to see Brett Jackson up here very soon.
If he’s here this May or June, and plays like Castro did last May, he’ll energize the team, and may push Byrd to have a super hot month, while looking over his shoulder.
Then we can move Byrd, no problem!
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Expecting Jackson to come up and play like Castro last year
Isn’t fair to expect. He’s most likely going to struggle when he comes up, as most rookies do.
Yes, he’s killing the ball in AA right now, but he’ll cool off and if his expectations are through the roof, it’ll be an unpleasant stay in Chicago for him.
Let him get a few more months in AA, try some AAA pitching and get a September call up. There is no need to rush him as he isn’t the player missing from this team contending for a WS.
Trying to figure a way to get the best value for Byrd
If he’s playing average, we may have to include some cash in a deal to move him.
But if he’s having a hot 6 weeks, we’re golden.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Byrd is signed to a pretty friendly contract.
We shouldn’t expect much back, but we also shouldn’t have to eat any money.
The Nats are looking for a CF upgrade
But he’s due $6.5mm next year… probably not within their budget for a 34 year old CF in 2012.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Byrds bat...
…seems slow to me and he appears “bound up” during his swings. He isn’t turning around too many heaters of late.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Pena is only out slugging Koyie
Dewitt is above him .113 better. Thats terrible.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Whatever happnend to....
making the pitcher throw a strike before you swing? The entire Cubs team’s failure to do this simple thing shows why they are 10-11.
Their approach is something out of a college team. ARam swinging out of his shoes on pitches that are in the other batter’s box. Soto does the same. Soriano too.
It’s both comedic and sad to sit there and predict what’s goign to happen. My kids on the other hand think I’m Nostradamus so that’s cool.
You think other teams don’t know how to scout the Cubs?
They’ll be lucky to win 75-80 games. Just not very good. And why would anyone suggest trading Byrd if we have to eat dollars? That’s moronic. Play him. If he stinks it up any more, sit him. Bring up Jackson. Let the kids play. There will be a team looking for pop at the trading deadline.
MAKE THE ADJUSTMENT ALREADY. THIS GAME IS ABOUT ADJUSTMENTS.
I almost nun-chucked you. You don't even realize!
I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best

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