Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Lightly Wounding Two Birds with One Stone or "How To Fix This Crap So I Can Watch Every Cubs Game"

I’ve been trying to figure out what MLB could do to fix some of the glaring irregularities with both the regular season schedule and TV (and Internet) black-outs.  While pondering it today, I think I may have arrived at an answer.   In a word: Expansion.

Star-divide

The Chicago Cubs are a member of the only 6-team division in MLB.  This creates scheduling oddities every year (9 games against the Giants?  7 against the Braves?  WTF?) and generally screws with the even flow of series.   Your ideal, idyllic American Pastime would feature two 3-game series (versus interesting opponents) a week with one day for rest as some ancient dude once wrote.  Unfortunately, we are shackled by a league which has only 30 teams, making things…awkward, to say the least.

Expansion is a touchy subject due to the perceived dilution of talent that it engenders, but my aim is to make it palatable by offering more to the fan than they are now receiving.  Namely, I propose that MLB expand to 32 teams but reserve the right to negotiate TV contracts for the two new teams. 

(pause for calls of "Heretic!", "Idiot!", and "Will you share your stash, dude?")

I start by looking at the NFL, which retains bargaining power for TV contracts for its member clubs.  There is no question that the NFL's TV coverage is harmed by having national broadcasters who are unfamiliar with the teams they cover on a week-to-week basis.  On the other hand, NFL games are almost never blacked out and if I go to a sports bar, I can almost be guaranteed to see whichever game I want.  This is what a strong league which retains broadcast negotiation rights can bring – people consuming the product because they are allowed to do so.

Back to expansion: Two new teams would make life incredibly easy for everyone involved – schedulers, owners, MLB execs, and fans.  First, it would make league division very simple: Eight 4-team divisions a la the NFL or four 8-team divisions.  Take your pick.  You wanna have an eight-team playoff bracket?  Go for it.  You want to schedule interleague series (with in-built rivalries, if you insist on them)?  Simple enough.  All scheduling math becomes vastly simplified with 32 teams versus the current 30.  If MLB selects their new sites wisely to avoid significant fan-base splintering (like the Nats trying to steal fans from a team that’s less than 60 miles away), this turns into an easy business decision.

The kicker is to tell the new owners that the league holds the right of first refusal for contracts involving TV broadcast rights of their games.  The teams can hire their own broadcasters and build fan loyalty any way they see fit, but MLB will decide which station(s) actually show(s) the games.  As MLB would hold all the cards in the fight for who is allowed to consume their product, a purer market emerges.  False restrictions upon that market (caused by regional operators wishing to protect their advertising dollars) will most likely be shown to be antiquated at best and utterly counterproductive at worst.

NB: I am not proposing that MLB pocket any more cash than they already do.  The owners are still allowed to keep TV cash, but the league will decide who writes the check.

This allows an experiment to occur: Will fans willingly watch a team if they are allowed to do so?  With MLB holding the broadcast rights, they can offer their product to whomever they like with whatever advertising they feel is appropriate and whenever the consumer would like to buy.  You don’t have to be a business major to see that expanding your potential consumer base at little to no cost to the corporation will lead to more people buying your stuff.

The end-game in this is that as individual clubs’ TV broadcast contracts expire, they will look to the league as a trusted partner and cede negotiation rights for TV coverage to the league.  In less than fifteen years, MLB can create a product which is as accessible as the NFL’s, and I don’t believe any baseball fan would argue against that.

All cross-examination and accusations of drunken BS'ing are welcome below.

Note the first: I have no idea where the new clubs would go.  Ottawa?  Las Vegas?  San Juan, PR?  Mexico City? Oklahoma City? Interesting debate to be had there.

Note the second: Thanks (?) are due to Invalid User for getting me to actually commit this crap to writing.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.

Comment 137 comments  |  1 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Realign the AL and NL, so they each have 15 teams

And play a constant inter-league schedule all year round to offset the odd number of teams.

Also, please get rid of these extra meaningless games vs non-division opponents like the 3 series vs the Giants this year. No more than 2 series and 6 games vs non-division opponents in your league.

And only 1 series vs teams in the opposite league. Take turns hosting home and away.

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on May 15, 2011 12:16 AM CDT reply actions  

There are two problems with season-long interleague series
  1. An interleague series in September may make a team ineligible for the playoffs where an in-league (or in-division) series would not. It may make an eventual World Series winner be seen as invalid due to playing a weak club in the last week of the season. Imagine the howls if the Yankees got home field advantage throughout the AL playoffs due to a season-ending series versus the Astros.
  2. It removes intrigue. As the inter-league stuff is still fairly new, it’s still fairly novel. There’s no way to drum up interest in the Cubs visiting Fenway if it happens every year. Expand, and it’s a once-every-8-years thing. That allows the league to keep selling inter-league play as something interesting to the casual fan.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Also...

… that would mean way too many interleague games. Interleague is fine with me the way it is — 12-18 games a year. More than that? No thanks.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 15, 2011 6:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

and would be perfectly fine if they were to take it a step further and eliminate interleague all together.

Fasten those seat belts...

by katie casey on May 15, 2011 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

There would be LESS interleague play

They’d just be spread out. Right now, you have roughly 225 interleague games a year (30 teams, 5 series each on average, divided by two).

In a 15-15 scenario (which is where I thought Clutch16 was going last night), you’ll have 162 interleague games.

It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??

by Invalid User on May 15, 2011 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't see any way they'd schedule fewer interleague games in a 15-15 split.

Just because you need a minimum of 162 interleague games, doesn’t mean that you would have only 162 interleague games.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 15, 2011 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

You beat me to it...

With exactly 162 interleague games, some teams will play 10, but others will play 11 (to work out evenly, the number of interleague games needs to be divisible by 15, which Invalid User did point out in a round-about way). A 165 interleague game schedule could work, I guess, with each team playing 11.

That said, technically, the current 225 game system could be done with a 15/15 league split, but the reason MLB didn’t do so was that it would be a scheduling nightmare to try and balance the interleague games between leagues spread out over so much time and with so many other considerations to take into account. The full weekends of interleague play (except for one NL series) take a lot of the pain out of scheduling…

by MarchHare on May 15, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Plus...

… depending on how you did the interleague schedule, you’d wind up with many more series that are one-and-done, i.e. teams playing each other only once through the entire season. As seen by the recent weather, trying to make up those games in the case of rainouts would be nearly impossible.

Which would lead to many more games being played in conditions like yesterday’s. No one wants that.

A 15-15 split may work in the NBA or NHL, but in MLB? Not so much.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 15, 2011 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

it would work fine in MLB Al

it would mean less games vs Cinci, Pitt, Mil, St Louis, Hou, but more against everyone else. there is no reason it would not work with 162 games when it works fine for leagues with 82 game seasons

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

That would be even worse.

Less games in your division? Sorry, not interested.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 15, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

how is it worse?

what does beating up on a weak division with unbalanced inter league and non divisional play do to help a team? Nothing. It allows a weak team to get home field throughout only to be proven to be a big fish in a small pond Al.

perfect example of how it is messed up now would be to look at the natural rivals, Cubs / Sox vs Royals / Cardinals is a perfect example of how it is not balanced. in a typical year Cubs have a much harder challenge than the Cardinals, which leads to an unfair advantage, and that happens in a lot of the pairings for the inter league.

you want to know who deserves to play in October, it needs to be better balanced with a 162 game schedule.

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

The division rivalries may be unbalanced NOW

… but that doesn’t mean it will be that way forever. Are you going to realign the divisions every year?

FWIW, since 2000, the Cardinals have only a 30-21 advantage over the Royals. Meanwhile, the Sox are 35-31 over the Cubs. Not a “perfect example” at all.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 15, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

why would you need to realign annually?

that makes no sense to anything i posed above or below Al.

I have a gut feeling you dont want the change based on tradition as much as anything, and if i am wrong, forgive me, but this is a sport that tradition means less and less to annually. there is nothing traditional about expansion, double switch, LOOGY, free agency, and so on. the game evolves, and changes become needed.

I was against the initial change to 3 divisions and a wild card, but have seen how good it has been for baseball as a whole, and now they need to address the leagues scheduling.

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Under your scenario...

… what if the Royals got good? Would that be fair to the Cardinals?

To make it “fair”, you’d have to realign every year, like the English soccer leagues do.

I’m fine with the current system. Win the games you play and it doesn’t matter what division you are in.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 15, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Promotion/relegation in American sports?

Truthfully, I love the concept – it builds a very strong community following for clubs. Unfortunately, I don’t see it working in a country the size of the US.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

in my schedule example below

I beleive you get the best of both. everyone plays the other league the same amount (4 vs each team) and you play more vs your division still.

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

and FWIW

30-21 is 9 over
35-31 is 4 over

that is a 13 game difference, which is a big deal in a sport where 1 game can make or break the post season

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

here is an example of one schedule that adds to 162

everyone plays everyone, and you still get your extra division games

AL Teams 15
Games vs each 4 (2 home/away)
total 60 game (30 home/30 away)

NL Non Division 10
Games vs each 5 (2 home/ 3away alternating annually by team)
total 65 game (25 home/25 away)

Division 4
Games vs each 13
total 52 (26 home/26 away)

30+25+26=81 home and 81 away, totaling your 162 games

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure, but...

… that means you play the other teams in your league just a tiny bit more than the teams in the other league (except for divisional games).

I don’t like it.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 15, 2011 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

its a much better balance

and that allows the teams who should make the post season to do so, aka weeding out the lesser teams. IMHO with a balanced schedule the 2008 Cubs win 10-12 less games, and are exposed long before the post season

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

So every National League team will fly to Seattle for 2 games?

Sounds great if they players get the frequent flyer miles. It sounds terrible for baseball.

"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.

by RiskyBusiness on May 17, 2011 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right.

How do you schedule that? Impossible.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 17, 2011 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

For starters

You’d have to do Interleague throught out the whole season

Cubs at Giants for weekend, then vs. A’s for 2 games.

Cubs at Dodgers for weekend, then vs. Angels for 2 games.

no thanks

"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.

by RiskyBusiness on May 17, 2011 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Or even better, none

Chicago Cubs - Arizona Cardinals 167 combined years and no rings
I guess I'm a masochist

by TBru on May 16, 2011 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

i know you like the unbalanced scheduling

i hate it. the unbalanced scheduling is how a team wins 97 games, dominates their weak division and gets slammed in the play offs. unbalanced works fine in NHL and NBA with approx half the games of MLB, it would work just fine for MLB, and would be a good thing for it as well.

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

I like SOME unbalanced, but not as unbalanced as it is now

I’d be much happier with 13-14 games against your divisional opponents and 8-9 against the teams in the other divisions, and two home and two away interleague series (but not six games against the “rivals”).

It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??

by Invalid User on May 15, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

which is almostt the exact thing i outlined above

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes

Houston to the NL west, Arizona to the AL west. Done, 3 divisions of 5 for each league. There are plenty of logistical experts to sort this out in regards to travel, etc.

The majority of one’s schedule should be within the division, which already happens. I’d like to see a change in the total number of games in a season, essentially making the ratios equal. Why 162? We’ve added teams since this number was set years ago.

Oh yeah while I’m at it, (get rid of the DH or) reduce the interleague play. I’ve always hoped this would have been a fad that had run its course by now.

by Tat14 on May 16, 2011 1:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

2 things that are here to stay

DH and Interleague play - which if you want 2 leagues of 15 you are going to have to have the DH in both leagues (which I dont mind one bit)

by hansman1982 on May 16, 2011 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

NFL games are almost never blacked out?

You must ever watch the Raiders, Bengals, Lions, Bills, Buccaneers, Chargers, etc.

Over ten percent of NFL games were blacked out this past season in their home market. And that’s not counting the Thursday games on the NFL Network, which is still not available on several major cable companies.

NFL Sunday Ticket is available only on DirecTV. There is no internet package available like MLB.tv.

I’m sorry, but anyone who argues that the NFL model is the way to stop blackouts has lost all credibility in my book. No sports league controls their product more and limits access more than the NFL.

Why don’t you look to the NBA or the NHL? Local teams control broadcasting there and they don’t have nearly the same blackout problems. That’s because they don’t allow teams to have ridiculous territorial claims.

The problem isn’t that teams aren’t willing to sell their broadcasting rights to the highest bidder. The problem is that they are selling their rights to the highest bidder. And those highest bidders are demanding exclusivity.

It’s ridiculous to think a team like the Yankees would ever voluntarily hand their broadcast rights over to MLB. They own the YES network. Do you think they want to pay MLB for the rights to broadcast their own games? Or worse, have MLB sell them to the MSG network?

And to think that the broadcast rights for these two expansion teams (Where? Las Vegas? Portland? San Antonio?) would be so much that teams would voluntarily hand over their broadcast rights is ridiculous? Why? Just so people in Reno could watch the Las Vegas team on MLB.tv? The dough would be rolling in on that one.

There’s nothing to see here. Move along.

by Josh Timmers on May 15, 2011 1:58 AM CDT reply actions  

This is exactly the sort of comment for which I was hoping

10% of NFL games last year were blacked out in their home markets. Anyone outside of those markets who wished to see their games were able to do so. I could have walked into any sports bar in my town (Fargo, ND) and watched any “Raiders, Bengals, Lions, Bills, Buccaneers, Chargers” game I wanted. The blackout rule exists in the NFL to help owners sell tickets. The blackout rule in MLB exists to protect local broadcasters’ interests. To put this in terms which are germane to the audience, if I am a Cubs fan in Iowa City, I am not guaranteed a way to watch a Cubs game on any given day, no matter what. It’s worse if I’m in Vegas which claims 5 different teams. Any one of those teams can be blacked out due to conditions occurring more than 100 miles away.

I’m sorry, but anyone who argues that the NFL model is the way to stop blackouts has lost all credibility in my book. No sports league controls their product more and limits access more than the NFL.

And yet, I can legally watch every NFL game I want. Occasionally, it requires that I find a sports bar, but it’s possible. Today, I had no way of watching the Cubs game without driving at least 200 miles to do so (well, 150 if I wanted to cross an international border). And this is less restrictive than a league that blacks out broadcasts within 50 miles? Please.
It’s ridiculous to think a team like the Yankees would ever voluntarily hand their broadcast rights over to MLB. They own the YES network. Do you think they want to pay MLB for the rights to broadcast their own games? Or worse, have MLB sell them to the MSG network?

The YES network (and NESN) are responses to a market which does not allow consumers a choice (and, notably, in markets which don’t have problems with selling their parks out). If Yankee fans were always allowed to see their team play, do you think the YES network would have ever arisen?
Where? Las Vegas? Portland? San Antonio?

As I said – lively debate.
There’s nothing to see here. Move along.

As someone whose articles routinely draw less than 30 comments each, I’d be wary of such statements.

Sorry, that comment was bitchy, but in fairness – so was yours.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 2:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've had very different experiences from you, apparently, when it comes to trying to watch NFL games...

I travel a lot for my job and during last fall alone I missed three Bears games (out of the four they played while I was traveling) because there was literally no way for me to find a broadcast (hotels never seem to get NFL network, nor do sportsbars outside of NFL markets, necessarily…assuming local liquor laws even allow them to be open early enough on Sunday for the first game of the day). I’m not even sure I could illegally have watched those games, although I guess everything is probably on the internet somewhere if you look hard enough.

Granted, I have no better luck with Cubs television broadcasts on the road, but at least I can stream every radio broadcast (with no blackouts) through my phone for ~$15/season. I’m not sure what the NFL’s phone support will be like next season (and with the current lockout, neither may the NFL), but I don’t believe you could do that last year…

by MarchHare on May 15, 2011 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

So you're saying

That it would be OK for MLB to black out every game if people could leave their house and go to a sports bar and watch?

You’re saying that it’s OK for local fans to get blacked out of a game, but not fans hundreds of miles away? That makes no sense.

And the NFL has redefined their blackout policy so that a Raiders game gets backed out hundreds of miles away in Visalia. Chargers games are blacked out in Ventura or Victorville.

I’m I’m sorry you made this personal. My comments were about your argument. Sorry you had to get classless.

by Josh Timmers on May 15, 2011 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

i see your points and they are valid

but if you buy the package for MLB it should not be blacked out for Sturday games on the package. The NFL ONLY black outs are due to a home team not selling out their game, otherwise it is available.

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am asking for a way to make it possible to see every game if I so choose

Is the NFL’s system perfect? No, but it’s more perfect (and more effective) than MLB’s current system. Moving in that direction will, I believe, serve the consumer better, drawing more consumers to the product. It will also mean that I can watch the Cubs every Saturday.

I’m sorry for getting butthurt about your comment. I’ll try to avoid the personal swipes.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your point

is that anyone can go to a Sports bar and see an NFL game—unless it’s blacked out because it’s the local team. But anyone can do that with MLB too. If you have DirecTV, MLB Extra Innings and the Sports Pack (which all bars do) you can see every game except the ones opposite Fox’s Saturday Game and the rare game from teams that just don’t televise every game.

The issue isn’t that people can’t watch the games—it’s that they can’t watch the games in the way they want to watch them—at home, on their cable system or on the internet. That issue is worse in the NFL. It is much, much harder to watch all the game with the NFL.

If your concern is the Saturday blackouts, the simple solution is to accept less money from Fox in order for them to drop their exclusivity. But there is no way you make as much money that way—people are not going to pay an extra $40 a year for a handful of Saturday games.

With the NFL, you still have 10% of game blacked out in their home markets. And there is no internet package. Having the NFL control broadcasts does not allow more access. It allows less.

by Josh Timmers on May 15, 2011 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

NFL is simple for out of market fans

with DTV you get EVERY GAME. I have not been blacked out of a single game in Austin, Texas for ANY team

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

"There's nothing to see here. Move along."

is rather dismissive and classless in itself. This was a well-written and well-thought out post, similar in value to your Minors wraps. I enjoyed reading this, just as I enjoy reading the Minor League Wraps.

by Kansas25 on May 15, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

clearly not a follower of the Oaklnad Raiders

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 16, 2011 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

If you're going to put teams in places like those that have NBA or NHL but no MLB,

smaller TV markets with less expensive ad buys, then it seems like you’ve gotta have revenue sharing, something the NFL also has.

How can a team drawing a thousand for a September game against a fellow last place team even afford to cook the hot dogs?

And even if, say, a Raleigh-Durham or a Las Vegas gets a team and sells out against the Braves or Dodgers, what size stadium are they selling out without public help, and there’s going to be massive resistance to that in this economy.

Also, if Raleigh-Durham or Las Vegas got a team, you’d hear the Braves, Nationals, Dodgers, Angels and D-backs scream loud and long that their fanbase was being eroded. Phoenix used to be big time Dodger country with Vinny on the radio and TV there before the D-backs came to town.

The Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. would have to pony up and share their TV revenue, something I imagine the Pirates and Royals have been asking for for awhile.

Of course, if there’s revenue sharing, you’re also going to hear owners screaming for a salary cap. Will the players ever let that happen even if it would be good for the game?

by patches23 on May 15, 2011 2:16 AM CDT reply actions  

Now we're talkin'!

Revenue sharing is already occurring (albeit in a limited way) via the “luxury tax”. It’s enough of an issue that superagent Scott Boras has come out publicly against teams that don’t spend their share of it on payroll (Royals, Pirates).

If you haven’t guessed, I am not opposed to the way the NFL does business. Granted, they have problems of their own, but I believe that they have provided a blueprint which would allow national sports leagues to thrive in this [country|continent].

How can a team drawing a thousand for a September game against a fellow last place team even afford to cook the hot dogs?

  1. Vagaries of scheduling. It happens that you sometimes don’t get an ideal matchup at the end of the season, but there’s no way to predict that ahead of time.
  2. Then give me 8 four-team leagues. The chances of a September matchup being meaningless for both decreases immensely.
    And even if, say, a Raleigh-Durham or a Las Vegas gets a team and sells out against the Braves or Dodgers, what size stadium are they selling out without public help, and there’s going to be massive resistance to that in this economy.

    Note that I made no demands that MLB institute this Right F*cking Now. Wait for the economy to recover or local tax rates to get high enough to make building a stadium on the public teat palatable – it really doesn’t matter to me. What matters (as the sub-head says) is that I can watch whichever game I want anywhere I want whenever it happens to be on. This is one possible path to making that happen.
    Also, if Raleigh-Durham or Las Vegas got a team, you’d hear the Braves, Nationals, Dodgers, Angels and D-backs scream loud and long that their fanbase was being eroded. Phoenix used to be big time Dodger country with Vinny on the radio and TV there before the D-backs came to town.

    As I said – lively debate. Neither the Braves, Nats, or O’s could scream too loud about the Research Triangle – that’s a split market with no clear favorite. Same with Vegas. OTOH, if you were to expand MLB’s reach to other locations with no rooting preference, but still within a couple hours’ flight time (like Puerto Rico), you start grazing even more birds with this single chunk of igneous material.
    The Yankees, Cubs, Red Sox, Dodgers, etc. would have to pony up and share their TV revenue, something I imagine the Pirates and Royals have been asking for for awhile.

    This is exactly what my proposal avoids. MLB simply has right of first refusal over any new contract. This nets no money for MLB or the member club, but ensures that restrictive broadcast policies which harm the average baseball fan do not and will not exist.
    Of course, if there’s revenue sharing, you’re also going to hear owners screaming for a salary cap. Will the players ever let that happen even if it would be good for the game?

    We’ve just seen the smallest market in the NFL win a championship in an uncapped year. Combine that with MLB’s disdain for same, and I would assume that proposal would be offered as a feint only for at least the next 20 years.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 2:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Last year being an uncapped salary year

is a bit of a stretch argument – it was one year so its not like the Giants, Jets, Bears, Patriots, etc… were able to pay to win the championship like the Yankees can.

What the MLB needs to do is simply tell the teams that either they reduce the distance of the blackouts or they will step in and do something…allow them to keep their current territories for whatever the hell they want but tell them that anything past XXXX miles is not eligible to be blacked out and if they continue to black them out MLB will take over their broadcasting rights to include radio and the internet and get pennies on the dollar.

by hansman1982 on May 16, 2011 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

I imagine that would engender a palace revolt

My view of the commissioner’s office is “the PR arm of the owners” at worst and “spineless” at best. Instructing the owners to flat-out tell their media partners to pound sand is more likely to be greeted by laughs (at first, followed by calls for Bud’s resignation) than any sort of measured, thoughtful responses of “this is germane to my interests.” Mine is more a “show, don’t tell” proposal – make it clear to the owners that a new model can work for them by giving them concrete examples rather than a proclamation from on high that This Shall Be Done.

Well, MLB could just get rid of Selig, but I’ve pretty much given up on that concept entirely.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 16, 2011 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

If Al Davis has proved anything

It’s that sports dictators do not yield power even in the face of their own mortality. Selig will be around for a long time.

by Danwood on May 16, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Snark!

GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.

by shoemile on May 15, 2011 3:16 AM CDT reply actions  

I am impressed by your fortitude.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 3:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Haters.

They hate.

GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.

by shoemile on May 15, 2011 4:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

I know this won't necessarily help fans who reside in other markets,

but one of the best investments I made in recent years was in a SlingBox. It allows me to watch and control my TV from my laptop computer anywhere in the world where I am able to get an Internet connection. It enables me to circumvent regional coverage and blackout restrictions while traveling. The best part is that other than the cost of the device, there are no subscriptions to buy or additional charges.

It’s marvelous technology and I’m surprised by how many fans are unaware of it. Sling Media really needs to do a better job of promoting its products.

I have watched Cubs games via SlingBox at airports, on airplanes, and even watched a Cubs-Phillies night game live while having breakfast in Mumbai, India.

I also recall once while vacationing in Florida, the Fox Saturday afternoon game being shown was Mets-Phillies. I simply turned on my laptop and watched the Cubs-Brewers game that was airing on Fox in Chicago. On another occasion in Florida, a Cubs-Blue Jays Saturday afternoon game wasn’t being offered on Extra Innings, but through my Sling I watched it on CSN Chicago.

I’ve read that sports leagues and local affiliates hate this technology, but it seems the concept of “local” in TV is evolving.

As Al has said in the past, fans should be able to watch any game they want if they are willing to pay for it. When using Slingbox on the road, I am simply enjoying programming that I have already paid to have delivered to me. Whether I am watching in my living room or halfway around the world is nobody’s business but my own.

by Rewdy on May 15, 2011 3:19 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

At least one other poster here swears by his slingbox

The difficulty for out-of-market fans isn’t that we may not be near a TV, it’s that no TV near us will be playing the game.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 3:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

all you need is internet access to access your slingbox

for those who don’t know what slingbox is:
you connect Slingbox to your cable feed and internet connection. You then can watch your cable feed via internet connection anywhere. For me in Vegas, I would put a slingbox in my cousin’s Wheaton condo, such as here second bedroom where nobody uses the cable connection. Then I get all the chicago channels here in Vegas over my home internet connection.

By all that's holy, I am going to attend the 2012 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp.

by VegasCubFan on May 15, 2011 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

i take it if your sister is watching one station, can you watch a different one

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

that's why you put it in a room where nobody watches TV

By all that's holy, I am going to attend the 2012 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp.

by VegasCubFan on May 15, 2011 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice discussion here people.

It’s simple for me. I know this is about “watching” the game but if I’m unable to see it I just listen to Pat Hughes. I like that guy and can get the laundry or dishes done as I’m listening.

by abba7 on May 15, 2011 3:34 AM CDT reply actions  

Radio broadcasts are different in kind

As they are both cheap and (generally) local. They can be rebroadcast by the league (as the league has done, in fact), but the main audience for them is not necessarily subject to big national media buys. I wouldn’t oppose anyone suggesting they be excluded from any future CBA which includes my proposal.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 3:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't see any place that would support a new team

especially with the current economy. Which “smaller” city has the money and desire to build a new stadium?

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on May 15, 2011 7:29 AM CDT reply actions  

There aren't any, really.

About the only place that could support a team would be putting a third team in the NYC market (probably in New Jersey). But the Yankees and Mets would want huge dollars for invading their territory.

There’s one other city that is big enough market-wise to support a team — that’d be Portland, Oregon. But they have no stadium and couldn’t even build one to keep their Triple-A team. Portland is the No. 22 TV market — it’s bigger than San Diego, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, among others who already have a MLB team. But again… no dollars for a stadium.

There are five other top-30 TV markets that do not have major league baseball: Sacramento, Salt Lake City, Indianapolis, Raleigh-Durham and Charlotte.

Sacramento: too close to the Bay Area, which already has two teams.
Indianapolis: too close to Chicago and Cincinnati
Raleigh-Durham: possible, but again, no stadium, and that’s really football country
Salt Lake City: too isolated
Charlotte: has been mentioned before, but has the same issues as Raleigh-Durham

There’s one other very large city with a metro population of about 2.5 million — about the size of St. Louis or Tampa/St. Petersburg. That’s Vancouver, which has been dying to have a baseball team for more than 20 years. I can’t imagine MLB granting another franchise to a Canadian city, though.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 15, 2011 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

The Solution to many

of the purported competitive balance problems is to dilute the Yankees/Mets and the Red Sox. That means a team in New Jersey and a Team in Hartford or Providence or Foxboro. The Boston “concentration” and the need for a competitor is at least a big a problem as New York.

Of course, the real solution is for Congress or the Supreme Court to recognize that baseball is a business engaged in Interstate Commerce and thus subject to the Antitrust Laws. And to then regulate it as such. At this point teams would be free (well freer) to move to markets which are more financially lucrative. Its one of the issues that created “Stadium” blackmail. In baseball teams threatened to move to DC and in Football to LA. And the only way that they would not move is to be paid off with sweetheart taxpayer deals in which the tax payer purchased the owner’s place of business under a deal that would never actually pay off for the taxpayer. (And that’s the only reason Portland doesn’t have MLB. The residents won’t pay the blackmail)

by frustratedfan on May 15, 2011 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps that's one way to sweeten the pot

MLB can trade dollars for a new facility in exchange for partial ownership of the team (but nowhere near a majority stake – say 5-10%) and TV broadcast negotiation power.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Having lived in Raleigh/Durham for 4 years

It would be hard to see them supporting a MLB team. They had two minor league teams (Bulls and Mudcats) and the Mudcats games were about as empty as could be. The Bulls games are better attended but I don’t see the interest in baseball to consistently fill a MLB-sized stadium. They have the population to do so, but then again, so does Pittsburgh.

by Danwood on May 15, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Some of the Latin American countries could draw attendance

but they’d have trouble getting average ticket price to come up. But a team in San Juan, for example, would probably draw more than Raleigh or Portland.

It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??

by Invalid User on May 15, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

i dont buy into the market size many use (not saying anyone in particluar)

for example, Austin, TX (Population: 656,562) is a bigger market than Milwaukee (Population 596,974) by population alone, but would not work due to Univ of Texas. San Antonio is a bigger market than some who have a team, and Columbus is the largest city by population in OHIO (IIRC) yet only has a NHL team which draws just fine.

some times the market size needs to be a lesser thought, and a bigger thought be true popularity and ability to draw which Green Bay and Los Angeles both prove better than anyone in all of professional sports.

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nashville is a case in point

Years ago when i got an assignment that had me going to Nashville every couple of weeks, I was excited about being able to watch AAA baseball. Then I went to a game, and other than seeing a young Magglio Ordonez (who was obviously the best player on the field by a noticable margin), it was depressing as hell.

In a relatively major city, they rarely average more than 6500/game for a season.

It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??

by Invalid User on May 15, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's 'cuz it's the minors

Being able to “see baseball played” is something that’s not appealing to a majority of MLB’s fans – they want to see the stars of the game (even if they play for a different team). I have an independent minor-league team in my town, and I have spent more time playing blackjack with their coaching staff than I have watching the team on the field.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

i remember as a kid seeing the Kenosha Twins

and there was more excitement for the in between inning stuff than the game often

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

On the surface Latin America seems like a good idea

But then again, several NHL teams in primary hockey markets (Northern US and Canada) have failed and moved south.

by Danwood on May 15, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tim will be by in a moment

But in a nutshell, most of those were responses to changing economies and demographics. Hartford could no longer afford to play in the crowded NYC/BOS market. Winnipeg’s barn was a dump and they couldn’t get public money to upgrade it, etc. Those teams went to where they could get sweeter deals. OTOH, the Coyotes aren’t drawing right now, and may be contemplating a move back north…

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

ownership sometiems plays a role in relocation

the Stars moved for a few reasons, but a big reason was Hicks owning the team and being a Dallas Texas business man. The prior owner of the Vikings (Red McCombs) wanted to move them to San Antonio since he was a Central Texas business man, and when the move was blocked he sold the team ASAP. Some teams threaten moving to get what they want (White Sox for example).

your example of the Coyotes is similar to what i was saying above, its not strictly about market size, but ability to popular in their region.

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Phoenix has never been a hockey town.

Most of the southern cities aren’t. The NHL really doesn’t belong in Charlotte, Nashville, Tampa, Phoenix or Miami.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 15, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good thing they're not in Charlotte ;)

However, in Raleigh, it’s been a struggle but they’ve made it work up to this point. Winning, and the lack of another professional team, is what gets them by. If a MLB team came to town Hockey would probably fold in two seasons.

by Danwood on May 15, 2011 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

FWIW

2010-11 NHL attendance

none are in as much trouble as the Islanders based on attendance alone

Top 5 and bottom 5 NHL home attendance

RK TEAM GMS TOTAL AVG PCT
1 Blackhawks 41 878,356 21,423 108.7
2 Canadiens 41 872,193 21,273 100
3 Flyers 41 808,328 19,715 101.1
4 Red Wings 41 806,892 19,680 98.1
5 Maple Leafs 41 793,522 19,354 102.9
RK TEAM GMS TOTAL AVG PCT
26 Ducks 41 604,283 14,738 85.8
27 Blue Jackets 40 546,350 13,658 75.3
28 Thrashers 41 552,230 13,469 72.6
29 Coyotes 40 487,543 12,188 71.2
30 NY Islanders 41 453,456 11,059 67.9

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's largely because the Islanders suck

… and are the third team in the market. Maybe the NY area can’t support three hockey teams any more.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 16, 2011 7:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

They couldn't support four

And I suspect that they won’t be supporting three for much longer. Of course, in the ’80s, the Isles were the belle of the ball and the Devils were the newcomers who would never win a damned thing.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 16, 2011 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Bossy, Smith etc will do that for you ...

then again the Devils were just coming out East from being a crappy Colorado Rockies team.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on May 16, 2011 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

you could say they are trying to support four now

Buffalo, Islanders, Rangers and Jersey Devils are all damn close, and that is without taking all the ECHL and AHL teams in the area into account.

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 16, 2011 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

?

Philly is geographically much closer to the NY Metro than Buffalo. So are the Caps.

by Danwood on May 16, 2011 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

You didn't like geography did you?

Buffalo? Close to NYI, NYR & NJ?

Buffalo’s proximity to those teams is about the same as StL, Min, Det (lot less) Clm & Nsh’s proximity to Chi.

The minors don’t have an impact on a big league team in big cities. The Isles plain suck right now. And their arena is in dire need of a facelift or replacement.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on May 17, 2011 6:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

forgive me for not being a Georgaphy Major

I was looking at the state itself, and Jersey, thats all.

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 17, 2011 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nah, the area can support 3 teams

As you point out the Isles suck. Actually they SUCK. And the arena is PoS too.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on May 16, 2011 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

thing with the NHL as you will agree

these numbers change so fast for the majority of the teams, look at the Hawks a few years back when no one cared compared to now.

winning in the NHL produces ticket sales more than any other sport IMHO

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 16, 2011 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure winning is the ultimate marketing tool

But the NY/NJ corridor is mammoth and can support 3 teams easily. The Isles are bad. But in much different ways the ’Hawks were bad.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on May 17, 2011 6:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

PHX has been a good hockey town

and the relocation took place since the old RoadRunners were one of the best draws in the IHL.

However, the problems started with

1) US Airways Arena bad for hockey
2) Scottsdale rejecting an arena at Los Arcos
3) consistently bad teams
4) Great Arena in Glendale too far away from where the money lives.

Relocate ATL. Not PHX.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 16, 2011 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Thrashers haven't been the same

Since they shipped the only reason to watch them (Kovalchuk) out of town. Much as I loved going to Thrashers games during my time in Atlanta, management has proven to be utterly inept. I’d feel bad for my ATL puckhead friends, but I could see the Thrashers moving or just plain folding.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 16, 2011 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

And this is why Bettman is an epic fail

He tried to geographically expand where in some of the cases, the area simply wasn’t good for the sport.

Too many locals in the US that shouldn’t be there. Not enough in Canada. Canadian dollar had something to say about that many years ago.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on May 17, 2011 6:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

I went to a Coyotes game this December

They draw ok in the upper level, but the expensive floor seats are pretty much empty. Great sight lines, and the location in an “entertainment zone” is a good idea. But the drive from Scottsdale would be a killer (I stayed out in Peoria) – easily as bad as trying to get from Naperville or Hoffman Estates to the UC.

It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??

by Invalid User on May 17, 2011 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've driven from Scottsdale to Glendale before.

It’s a hike — and especially in rush hour, when most people would be going to the games.

It was a really bad choice of location for this arena. They can manage with the football stadium there because the games are only once a week and mostly on Sundays when there’s less other traffic.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 17, 2011 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

At the time, Al

After Scottsdale rejected an arena, this was it or nothing. However, if the team wins the people will show, even with a long hike out there, which it surely is.

But the West Valley is where future growth will be, given a better economy. So, if they hang on….and now I’m reading that Glendale is trying to woo Jerry Reinsdorf back into a possible ownership role.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 17, 2011 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Reinsdorf, again?

All this is accomplishing is allowing the Thrashers, instead of the Coyotes, to move to Winnipeg.

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on May 17, 2011 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure if it can work

I’m not a fan of his but if the finances work, then good.

The weakest link will go. Atl already lost a team and Atl can be argued as the worst sports city in the US. Look how good the Braves were for so long and they should have been playing to packed stadiums every game.

Perhaps signing Buff to a $5.2M / yr deal for 5 years was a way to draw more on the demographics for the Thrash. But they made too many personnel mistakes and didn’t develop well with the Wolves and Gwinett the last couple years.

Personally, I’d like to see 10 Canadian teams (2 in Tor) but fear of competition BS, weakened Canadian Dollar to the US Dollar years ago and rapid rise of salaries helped doom some Canadian cities. It’s a 4:1 US/Can city ratio right now. Should be more like 2:1.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on May 19, 2011 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not enough US TV money for a 2:1 US/Can ratio

However, with the Canadian dollar now at par with the US dollar, in addition to Winnipeg, I could see a team moving back to Quebec City, where they want to build a new arena.

That would make eight Canadian teams and 22 US teams, not a bad ratio.

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on May 19, 2011 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure if it'd be as big an issue as other sports

NHL is still heavily ticket-driven from a revenue perspective. Far and away higher (%) than the other big-3.

Also what I didn’t mention above is that I’d personally consider contraction of US-based teams as part of an overall solution.

IMHO the NHL is a minimum of 2 teams too much, probably closer to 6 teams too much.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on May 19, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I went to Coyotes game in March

and it was packed.

Excellent game … Sharks won.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 18, 2011 7:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sharks won.

Here’s your answer. For the last two years the NHL has scheduled the Sharks and Blackhawks to play in Phoenix during March… guess why? Because thousands of people from Chicago and the Bay Area are in town for spring training.

Those games were sellouts. The rest of the Coyotes home games? Not so much.

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on May 18, 2011 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

There’s no US TV market to place a team in. I agree with Al, Portland the top US candidate – but they wanted MLS more than minor league baseball. Forget that market.

You’d just be putting more small markets into a mix that has issues with the current small parkets.

There is a slight chance of the A’s to Las Vegas, if Mayor Goodman gets a ballpark built. But — still a smallish TV market.

Hell, a thrid team in Chicago would be a better idea.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 16, 2011 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Speaking of dilution of talent...

I just started reading a book by John Evers from 1910. It mentions how extremely difficult it is to find enough first-class players for the 16 teams. I’m finding it pretty amusing. Baseball hasn’t changed much at all.

Fasten those seat belts...

by katie casey on May 15, 2011 8:55 AM CDT reply actions  

Never will

We could have a 8 team league and the fans would still be able to find their Theriot.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just recently moved to MIssouri...

Turned to Fox yesterday and saw that the Sox/Yanks game was on. I’m aware of the blackout BS (I just haven’t gotten involved in the details of it all), but does it make sense that this game was being broad casted in Missouri? Can anyone explain why they chose to play that game here instead of the Cubs/Giants?

by renocubfan on May 15, 2011 10:29 AM CDT reply actions  

I'd imagine Yanks/Sox...

dominates coverage in nearly all markets.

by Kansas25 on May 15, 2011 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

They did yesterday

http://the506.com/sports/?p=2176

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

That really ticked me off

Eastern Missouri apparently had Cubs Giants. Those of us in the rest of the state were stuck with the Yankees. SW Missouri is NL Central territory. It made no sense.

I have PMS & a GPS -- which means -- I am a bitch, and I will find you.

by cub in louies nest on May 15, 2011 5:48 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

An affiliate can lobby for a game change

if they are not happy with what they are assigned. However, the affiliate would have to have some clout with the network due to other reasons.

I’ve seen it happen in SD. It should have happened Sat, when this market got the Yankees when it should have gotten LA/AZ. However, this FOX affiliate has only had the the net for just over 2 years.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 16, 2011 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

reading fail...

didnt see you posted on Sunday and not today

by hansman1982 on May 16, 2011 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Two Teams Without Home Games

Another option is two create two wanderers. Franchises without a Home Base or with multiple Home Bases.

For Example, the Western Wanderers. They play 40 home games in Oklahoma City, 20 games in Last Vegas and 20 games in Portland

Or the Migrant Workers. 20 games in Florida in the Spring, 20 games in the early Summer in Texas, 20 games in the mid-summer in Iowa, 20 games in Oregon and california in the fall….

Or the Yankee Travelers. 20 home games in Boston, 20 home games in Hartford, 20 home games in Albany and 20 home games in Cape Cod

Or have a team that only plays road games and only against teams that sell 90%+ of their seats each year (as an incentive to have the team sell seats, they get extra games against a team that will likely be very bad and full of guys like Milt Bradley and the like since they would not have a minor league team…) And have the Decoy Ducks only eligible for post season as a Wild Card.

by frustratedfan on May 15, 2011 11:56 AM CDT reply actions  

What player would want to play for a team like that?

Where you don’t have any specific place to live during the summer? Six months on the road? No thanks.

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 15, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

i agree, this idea seems a little too Globetrotter for me

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who Would Want to Play for them?

Yes, many guys would not want to play for them. But it would be an interesting “home” for players that couldn’t otherwise play or had character issues (Such as Milton Bradley). Or you could give the team a 30 man roster with one player from the 40 man roster on every team assigned to the team (instead of AAA) subject to the same recall rules and with the proviso that the member of the team that you are playing cannot play against his own team.

by frustratedfan on May 15, 2011 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

So, the Washington Generals of MLB?

That probably wouldn’t fly.

GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.

by shoemile on May 15, 2011 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's a lot of new stadiums being built to house only one or two teams

It would work if they could use existing facilities (ie, play home games in Fenway when the Sawx are out -of-town), but what happens when there’s a rain-out for either team at that facility? I can see the “roving teams” concept working for the NHL or NBA, as their games are played indoors and non-consecutively, but not MLB.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

The NBA tried a version of that in the late 70s

the former Cincinnati Royals split time between KC and Omaha. It worked so well they moved the franchise to Sacramento after a couple of years.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 16, 2011 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

no harm

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 17, 2011 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Remember the NBA's

Kansas City/Omaha Kings? Didn’t work out well. Games in 2 cities? Uh, no.

by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on May 16, 2011 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like the idea in theory.

But there’s so many “but what about…?”

First off, when we’ve talked so much about contraction, how can MLB expand? Second—and I’m no legal mumbo jumbo guy—why can’t MLB agree or come to terms with blackout restrictions? Third, a lot of these problems would be solved if MLB didn’t have the most asinine and antiquated view of modern media. Last, I hope Bud Selig, er, never mind.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on May 15, 2011 5:11 PM CDT reply actions  

hope + Bud Selig typically = disappointment

Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird

by Cubbie-Tim on May 15, 2011 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought about contraction, as well, before realizing that it wasn't a viable concept in today's MLB

There are teams which perhaps deserved contraction over the last 30 years, but any time someone looks like they’re going to get serious about it, the owners circle the wagons. After all, who’s to say that their team wouldn’t be the next one on the chopping block?

MLB is slightly hand-cuffed on the blackout issues due to the fact that teams each negotiate their own media contracts. There is minimal collective bargaining at the league level for regular-season games. At one time, this made sense; the teams knew their markets best and were the ones who were best able to decide which media outlets should carry their product. As mass media has become so pervasive (starting with cable and satellite technology and continuing with the Internet), MLB finds itself stuck in a backward model and so long as it continues to allow the clubs to negotiate the majority of their own media buys, we will never be rid of these blackout issues. MLB has never had a Pete Rozelle to metaphorically grab the owners by the scruff of their necks and point them at a different model and say, “This. Do this, or get out.” That cannot happen in today’s MLB, anyway, as the owners hold too much sway with the commissioner’s office to ever capitulate to it.

Thus the multiple birds/one stone thang – MLB can find new fans in new markets, straighten out scheduling issues, and kick the tires on a media model that makes sense for the 21st century.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 15, 2011 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

plus

many of the teams that suck now either didnt a few years ago, have storied pasts that you dont necessarily abandon or have international appeal

by hansman1982 on May 16, 2011 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

On interleague: Realignment would be needed first

Other than the pseudo-obvious 15-team leagues, does MLB keep teams from East-to-West in each league and like the NFL or does it abondon the AL/NL and make Eastern and Western conferences like the NHL & NBA? Likely the first scenario.

I came up with 4 options but will show only one of them, the most logical to me. To go to (2) 15-team leagues, the Brewers would go back to the AL Central & Royals back to AL West.

There’d be 64 division games, 16 against each of the 4 opponents. Fifty intra-league games, 5 against each 10 non-divisional opponent and finally 48 inter-league games, 3 against each opponent with 3 “special” games against one particular team. Special games would be the obvious Cubs/Sox, NYY/Bos etc.

There’s no real easy way to have a clean divisional schedule and yes there’d be some 2-game series especially against intra-league teams. With 162 games and 30 teams there is no pure way to align divisions and play the exact same number of games against division, intra-league and inter-league. But the intrigue of special games would remain and all fans get to see all MLB teams over a 2-year cycle; inter-league sites alternate.

I didn’t think through travel restrictions that much but with a sport who has in essence two conferences each traversing the continental US already, travel is still going to be extensive.

Guess it’ll never be like the NL of 25-ish years ago when the Cubs played the NL East teams 18 times and the NL West 12 times. That worked out great with in-division and out-of-division balance and all series ideally could have been 3 games each. But there were several less teams in the league and no inter-league games yet.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on May 16, 2011 7:53 AM CDT reply actions  

Expand to 32 teams and realignment, scheduling, and interleague play all become much easier than they are now

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 16, 2011 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Of course.

But again, where are you going to put these teams, who builds them a stadium, and why would you do this in the middle of a recession?

Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago

by Al Yellon on May 16, 2011 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

See above

I don’t have answers for the first two (although I do have ideas), and I do not plan on nailing any manifestos to Bud Selig’s door this year. This was more brainstorming around a kernel of an idea than concrete planning.

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on May 16, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because all this take years to complete

And if the US is still in the middle of a recession – and some economist would say the recession is over – now is when some businesses will look to expand.

Where? Follow the population – South and West.

But baseball owners look at the territorial rights map and wrap their arms around their color code – NIMBY.

"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.

by RiskyBusiness on May 16, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

A schedule where teams in the same division do not play the same schedule

is deeply flawed.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 16, 2011 8:06 AM CDT reply actions  

You already have this today

Every year, the Cubs play the white sox 6 times this year and cards play the royals 6 times. And some years, the cards won’t play the white sox and the cubs won’t play the royals. This year, the cubs will play the royals 3 times. But the cards won’t play the white sox at all.

"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.

by RiskyBusiness on May 16, 2011 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 17, 2011 7:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Disagree

That’s a ridiculous blanket statement.

It’s a 162 game schedule and the cubs play 80 games vs. their 5 divsion opponents, all in the range of 15 to 18 games. The Cubs play 6-9 games vs. the other 10 NL teams. That leaves only 15 games for interleague play – less than 10% of the schedule.

So for the vast majority of a team’s schedule, they are playing the same teams. There is only small differences in the number of games vs. the exact same opponent.

MLB’s scheduling is very complex and has to account for request from every team to be home for certain dates and probably even avoid home games on certain dates. Then factor in the off days and the maximum number that can be used early in the season, and the travel requirements.

"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.

by RiskyBusiness on May 17, 2011 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

not ridiculous at all

15 games is only statistically insignificant if the stats do not support your argument

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 18, 2011 7:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's nice double-talk

If you want to go back to a 2 division, 12 team National League, where the Cubs would play each East division opponent 18 times and each West division opponent 12 times, great. Let me know when the time machine is built.

Otherwise, come back when you have an argument that is longer than one sentence.

"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.

by RiskyBusiness on May 18, 2011 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

weak

Do I think interleague play is going away? No, it’s here to stay. But interleague games make for an unbalanced schedule, no denying that, but I am guessing you will continue to try since your manhood seems dependent on “winning” this argument.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 19, 2011 7:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Unbalanced yes

“deeply flawed”? You haven’t shown that.

"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.

by RiskyBusiness on May 19, 2011 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

what is so difficult to grasp?

Two teams in the same division playing very different schedules. That is what is deeply flawed.

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 20, 2011 7:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

My issue with interleague

is that it is inconsistent. This year, the cards play the royals twice, the rays and the orioles. we have the chisox twice, yanks and redsox. Alot of how you look at that is how the teams are playing at the time. Point is that we play different teams, and those games count towards the final standings. Hey at least the reds have to play the indians twice!!

Look at attendance in interleague games, and it is higher than regular games. How many Cubs games sold out this year. The Yanks did. Didnt the Twins draw great in the recent past at Wrigley? Here in Atl, the interleague games draw as well as the Cubs.

If the IL schedule went year round, with 15 AL and 15 NL teams, the cubs for example would play 57 games vs. the central( 14 vs 3 teams&15 vs. 1 team) 60 vs other NL(6 each), and 45 vs AL(3 each rotating home year to yr). thats only a few less division games than are played currently.
Face it, interleague isnt going away, so at least make it fair and consistent.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby

by imacubman on May 18, 2011 9:10 AM CDT reply actions  

Hey at least the reds have to play the indians twice!!

Now, last year that might have been an easy road for the Reds. This year — not so much.

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on May 18, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

A few less?

The Cubs play 80 division games this year. A drop to 57 would be a big change. You divisions would be won outside of the division play, not inside it.

When the NL had 2 divisions of 6 teams (1992), the Cubs played their 5 division opponents 90 times – 18 each. Much closer to the 80 division games they play today.

"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.

by RiskyBusiness on May 18, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

teams playing fewer intra-division games is an indictment not a recomendation

I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren

by lookingdeadred on May 19, 2011 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's close to my favourite scenario cited above

64 Div, 50 Intra, 48 Inter.

KC to ALW, Milw to ALC.

3 extra Inter games would be “specials”….Cubs/Sox, NYY/NYM etc.

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on May 19, 2011 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

More likely...

… IF a 15/15 split were to happen, would be Houston moving to the AL West. That would give the Rangers an in-state rival in their own time zone.

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on May 19, 2011 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's fine too

The logistics issue to solve is inter-league throughout a good part of the season and how travel would be handled. For instance the Cubs would play the A’s (maybe Mariners too) when they visit the Giants and the Angels when they play the Dodgers & Padres.

I figure it’d have a fair chance to work since number of intra and inter league games are nearly the same. It’s symmetric on the divisional games – all teams play 64 divisional games – and would give more creedance to the wild card(s).

Just win the next game...!

by blackhawk24 on May 19, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to Bleed Cubbie Blue, the Chicago Cubs blog for the SB Nation, created on February 9, 2005 by Al Yellon

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Maybe it's time to take a deep breath

Recent FanPosts

Zambrano_background_2_small
What is the most likely move in June regarding current players?
Small
Draft Prep: Pierce Johnson
Small
Trying to be positive (need some help)
Small
Soriano back to Second?
Small
Javier Baez Peoria Bound?
Small
Draft Prep: Conference Tournament Version
Despite-an-inflated-babip-lahair-is-no-one-month-wonder
Suddenly, I feel your pain
Small
Start of the LaHair Regression?
Dsc06783_small
Rookie Season Ticket Open House

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Doug Glanville On His Teammate, Kerry Wood
Thanks.
Samardzija takes a dig at Hawk Harrelson
Chicago vs. Chicago, Round 2.
Wrigley Field Photo Gallery

Recent FanShots

Former MLB PItcher Bob Ojeda On Pitching And Pain
Wrigley Field Supporters Propose Tearing Down Rest Of Chicago
2012 Stars and Stripes Hat
Sveum moves Castro back to #2 spot
OT: Tyler Colvin bats 2nd
The Pittsburgh Pirates Offensive Catastrophe
Roy Halladay Bobblehead Fail
Full sized image
All The Topps Baseball Card Cubs, 1951 - 2012
Rob Neyer answers the question: When should the Cubs call up Anthony Rizzo?

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Featured Poll

Poll
Should the National League adopt the designated hitter rule?

  973 votes | Results

Cubs By The Numbers

Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.

Click here to order your copy, available now!

Recent Stories in Chicago Cubs Game Threads

Yahoo_full_count

Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges


Managing Editor

Alyellontoppscard_small Al Yellon

Front Page Contributors

Profile_small Josh Timmers

B_w_avatar_small Brett Taylor

Marvin_the_martian_small Shawn Domagal-Goldman

Other Contributors

Toonmike_small Mike Bojanowski

Dsc_0139_small David Sameshima