Who Won The Matt Garza Deal?
Written by me for Baseball Nation.
about 1 year ago
Al Yellon
287 comments
0 recs |
Email
PrintComments
Good write up
I think it was a good trade for both parties and figure Garza to be a very solid # 2 SP in the national league with the stuff to become a bottom tier #1 within the next 3 years. I was in-favor of this trade and still am.
by Cubsfan Waveland on May 19, 2011 10:37 AM CDT reply actions
Because he moved from a 1st place team to a 5th place team?
by Jody Jody Davis on May 19, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Actually I was thinking more in the terms of where he's playing
Tampa Bay is nice and all but it doesn’t hold a candle to Chicago
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
I should have been clearer.
I’m not talking about the parks themselves I’m talking about the city’s
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
Agreed - who'd want to go to a baseball game where you could end up sitting near Dick Vitale?
by Jody Jody Davis on May 19, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Since I'm an ACC fan all I can to that is
Yeah Baby!!!!!!
If the world didn't suck we would all fall off.
I'm a Big Ten fan, so I don't think I could handle it
But I’d love to be able to sit next to Gus Johnson at a baseball game.
by Jody Jody Davis on May 19, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I think he has to wake up everyday and be irritated he is here....
Just the managing abiltiites of the two skippers is one sided for the Rays….
Plus the Rays try all the time….
Yeah like that decade where they tried...
and won multiple top 5 draft picks!
The only thing not taken into consideration
was the relative trade value the package had at the time. Which, of course, we have no way of knowing. Could that package have brought in a better player? Possibly.
I’m fine with the deal, as Garza has undergone a transformation from his Tampa days. He’s no longer the fastball reliant, fly ball pitcher that he once was.
Never really saw a...
package headlined by a guy who might be more reliever than start who keeps bombing n AA and a low A SS grab a player as good as Garza…especially nowadays where teams are a little more knowledgeable when it comes to prospect.
Archer was around the 40th prospect in baseball at the time.
At least according to the “experts”. Lee was anywhere from 90th-110th or so. Guyer was a solid bet to make the majors as at least a 4th OFer. Chirinos was coveted by quite a few teams as a solid “backup C of the future” type. Don’t dismiss the package, just because it hasn’t performed exceedingly well for Tampa so far. It was very legit at the time.
Once again, I’m actually alright with the deal, and was at the time. But when we are discussing the deal, it’s almost ignorant not to discuss the perceived value of the package we gave up at the time the deal was made.
I think archer was aided by a down year for
prospects and I’ve said here since the offseason that i thought he’d be exposed in aa. Here he is right back to walking 5+ per 9.
Everyone else but lee was fodder..trade filler…quality trade pieces for older barely prospects…I really can’t imagine theyd fetch a more talented MLB player without including something more substantial than guys who might be backups.
by SenorGato on May 20, 2011 12:18 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Good write-up
Especially about how the minor league guys we traded away have done so far this year, which helps put the trade into better perspective.
I was not happy with the deal when it happened, but Garza has certainly out-pitched my expectations of him. I doubt that he’ll be able to sustain his 10.99 K/9 rate or his 0.16 HR/9 rate over the course of a full season, but he does seem to be a different pitcher, much more valuable than the one I thought we were getting.
by Jody Jody Davis on May 19, 2011 11:08 AM CDT reply actions
As much as I would love to say the Cubs copped a trade from the Rays
It’s still too early to tell. Garza has been excellent though.
I agree
Much too soon to come to any sort of conclusion. Nothing has changed from the day the trade was made.
by jerry morales rules on May 19, 2011 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Archer's struggles in AA...
haven’t changed. If anything, he’s confirming the thoughts about both his control and his command.
The Devil Rays.
Why? Because what does Garza do for us? Bring us out of the cellar? No. As if we need a #3 SP for 2.5 more years.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Small sample size alert and all...
…but Garza has been way, way better than a No. 3 so far for the Cubs. His 2011 numbers are actually freakin’ amazing right now.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
Freakin' amazing????
Please explain. I see a 3.719 ERA and a WHIP of 1.37 and I wonder how you can come to this conclusion.
I like Garza and I’m generally in favor of the trade. I’m happy with his production thus far, but not to the level of your exuberance.
by jerry morales rules on May 19, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't use ERA and WHIP to evaluate a pitcher.
Unless I was a host of SportsCenter.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
In other words,
his BaBIP is extremely high (.362), so he’s either unlucky or has poor defense behind him, his FIP is a ridiculous 1.84, and his K/9 is 11, which is totally awesome. Garza has crap for defense behind him, is unlucky, but is making a lot of batters miss and a lot of batters hit grounders. His ERA and WHIP are, in this instance, totally unhelpful.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3340&position=P
Dan
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
unlucky or poor defense......
I’ll go with both. lol
As Dan points out...
…you’re looking at the wrong numbers. Garza’s FIP, xFIP, K/9, HR/9 and GB% are all freakin’ amazing. His walk rate is right around his career average and his BABIP is way over his career average.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
That's why I was asking.
Just by my naked eye, I still don’t see dominating performances when I watch him pitch. He’s hard to hit, for sure, but he seems to have to throw a lot of pitches to get not too many outs. This certainly has a lot to do with team defense and BaBIP, but I also wonder if there’s a bit of the Rich Harden effect – stuff that’s too good to put in the field of play, but not good enough to not foul off.
Garza isn’t going deep into games. Again, defense and BaBIP has a lot to do with it, but I don’t think it completely explains it. I think that Garza’s performance may be really freakin awesome for a #3 pitcher, but not for a TOR starting pitcher. Maybe I’m reading too much into “freakin’ awesome”.
I would love to see his pitch counts per at bat or pitch counts per inning.
by jerry morales rules on May 19, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I agree.
I mainly meant his numbers thus far look freakin’ great, though you’re right about his high pitch counts and not getting as far into games as one would like. And, again, the sample size is small. Looking back, I wasn’t in favor of the trade but I must admit that I’ve enjoyed watching Garza pitch.
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
as i said before the trade, and since
per baseball reference he is comparable to Steve Traschel and Jason Marquis
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
Great timing!
I was wondering this today, and just looked up the stats for all the prospects the Cubs traded this morning.
I didn't like Lee in the deal.
However Garza has thrown well, should have a much better record and the one thing I do like he is always in the game when he is not pitching. He is at the top of the dugout, and at the end of innings he is always greeting the Cubs into the dugout.
Call me old school but I like that type of shit.
by Grockcubs on May 19, 2011 11:45 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
As for being at the top of the dugout...
that drives my husband nuts. I didn’t see it, but apparently he felt Garza was dancing around up there a bit too much. He thought it was nice that he’s encouraging his teammates but that someone should tell him to sit down before he gets himself hurt over something stupid.
Fasten those seat belts...
by katie casey on May 19, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Drives me nutso, too, kc
it’s one thing to high five and chest bump when someone does good, but, to act like a high school cheerleader is a bit over the top. I’m beginning to think he does it now knowing the TV cameras are on him when he does. I’m not sure he did the same thing in TB or not.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981
Love shit like that too.
We live in such a vag run world that him being at the top of the steps to support his teammate that he should 1. stop acting like a cheerleader and 2. stop before he hurts himself.
Just to clarify.
It wasn’t the cheerleader part (he thought that was nice) that got to my husband. Again, I didn’t see this, but according to him Garza was climbing the railing by the dugout and tiptoeing around on a ledge where the batting helmets, etc. were and it looked really awkward. So it was only your #2 that he was ranting about.
Fasten those seat belts...
I think it is still WAAAY to early to tell
who won/lost – we are still talking about 2 prospects that are a year or two away from the bigs at least and Archer might be able to re-find what made him successful here. Hell look at Jackson – he is having a crappy start to the year.
I am as big of a fan of the trade as anyone (especially if Maddux thinks highly of Garza) but lets see what happens in a year or two.
Holy crap.
I was just writing that, hans!
I was mildly disturbed by the Garza deal, mostly because I worried that Hendry would get outsmarted by an organization that is so good at evaluating talent. I didn’t hate it, either.
I do think that if Garza had been rocked and the prospects were raking in the minors (or the bigs) for Tampa, that quite a few posters here would be throwing the it’s-too-early-to-tell card.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I think most posters here would be...
bemoaning our losses and ripping Hendry. Which really…it’d just be whining to top off a nice helping of whining.
We haven't been above .500 since the end of 2009.
It’s no surprise that the fanbase isn’t thrilled by the state of things.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Far too early
As I saw it, this was a deal that the Rays made to shave some immediate salary and give themselves a good chance to have 1-3 solid prospects join them in the majors in 2-3 years to keep their low salary/high output plan going. Fuld was just a fill-in/bench OFer who had more upside than Perez, so his output is not what I expected to judge the deal on. Once we know how Lee, Chirinos, and Archer top out in their development, then we can decide if someone won this deal. Right now, we just can’t make any judgements on those kids.
Yet another reason the Cubs lost:
In what should be a rebuilding phase, the Cubs take on a contract for $6M, with control for another two years at somewhere in the neighborhood of $8-10M/year.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
This is where the We're-not-the-Pirates logic comes in.
Once the horrible contracts come off the books, we shouldn’t need two more years to rebuild.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
We shouldn't...
but if Ricketts decides that Jim Hendry is the one who gets to try it, guess how long it’s gonna take.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 19, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dont know.
If Hendry can repeat what he did from 07-09, I wouldn’t mind seeing him stick around.
But if the real Hendry is mid-2009 to present. Then he needs to be gone yesterday.
I put alot of the early problems on McFail.
from 2007-early 2009, Hendry did a very good job putting the team together and making them contend. Since then the decisions have been mind boggling.
I didn't really like the idea of signing Milton either. But the 2009 team was still a good team.
With all the injuries and under performance, that team was still in contention until the end of the year.
I don’t think Hendry did a bad job really, just alot of things completely backfired.
He did a really bad job before 2009.
If the team hadn’t been in transition, he probably would have been fired. His moves that offseason — Bradley, Miles, Heilman, Gregg — might have looked OK on paper, but he gave up too much in each case, or overrated their abilities.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
The team was set up to win. And they were in first place as late as August.
Injuries and some under performace ruined that season. It was well constructed to begin with though.
Other than the failure to have a backup 3B on the roster, it was well-constructed
by Jody Jody Davis on May 19, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Or a closer.
Part of the reason they fell apart in August was Kevin Gregg’s implosion (naturally, right after the trade deadline).
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Like I mentioned above. Under performance.
If everyone had been healthy and played like they were capable. The Cubs would have been in the playoffs in 2009.
See above.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
err, below
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Dude, that is LAUGHABLE.
The team was so badly constructed that Mike Fontenot — who had never played a game in the bigs at short or third, became the backup at both positions.
It was so badly constructed that it shifted one of the team’s only plus-defenders (Kosuke) to a position that he was never equipped to play.
It was so badly constructed that when Reed Johnson was hurt, the Cubs used Sam Fuld as part of a platoon against left handers.
It was so badly constructed that it counted on Milton Bradley to be a lefty RBI machine when he was never known for driving in runs and when he was historically a MUCH better hitter from the right side.
It was so badly constructed that it counted on Kevin Gregg, who wasn’t good in 2008 and who put together two decent months after a terrible April only to get shelled in August RIGHT AFTER THE TRADE DEADLINE making it all but impossible to trade for reinforcements.
No, lj whatever, you’re wrong. The 2009 Cubs team was TERRIBLY constructed.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
by elgato on May 19, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I completely disagree.
That team was projected to easily win the division with the good talent it had.
Once again, injuries and under performance by key players was the problem. Aside from not having a backup 3B (nobody expected Ramirez to ruin his shoulder and be out so long) That team should have been able to win.
So despite all the flaws you mention above. That team was still in first place in late August.
They had alot of talent. They were good.
Then won 83 games, so they weren't terrible.
But that was a 14-game fall from 2008. There were a lot of injuries, but it was easy to start the year to project that:
1) Aaron Miles was not a good third base and shortstop backup.
2) That Milton Bradley was never an RBI producer or that good of a lefty bat.
3) That Kevin Gregg was a poor bet at closer.
4) That Aaron Heilman would not be as good as Michael Wuertz (forgot to mention that one).
I’d also contend that you can have a good team that is poorly constructed, mostly because the construction pre 2008-09 offseason wasn’t bad. But the poor construction DURING that offseason pretty much closed the window on the 2007-08 team.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I also think Marmol should have been closing games instead of Gregg.
Miles was coming off a good season, so he should have been a capable backup.
And It doesn’t matter if Bradley hadn’t had a certain amount of RBI’s before. RBI’s are team dependant, If he had played much better the RBI’s would have been there.
I don’t think we should argue this anymore, I don’t see us agreeing on it any time soon. I think you make some good points, and I respect that.
Last point: It wasn't just that Milton wasn't an RBI guy. He wasn't that good of a lefty bat.
And now, I’m walking away.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
It's pretty unfair to judge Gregg based on that one season
He was a decent closer before that year, and he’s been a decent closer since. He’s only ever posted a FIP over 4.00 that one year.
He’s no Mariano Rivera, don’t get me wrong, but he’s not the dud you’re portraying him as either.
But he wasn't good in 2008 or 2009.
Still, maybe that was a move that blew up in Hendry’s face that wasn’t that was arguable on its face.
Regardless, the Bradley and Miles signings were such disasters — and such misevaluations of talent — that I can’t forgive Hendry for those moves.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Well, he's never been *good* per se
But he was a much worse pitcher that one year for the Cubs than he’s ever been before or since. That’s a bit fluky to me.
Miles, like Gregg, has never been good – but he was much much worse that one year for the Cubs than he’s ever been before or since. He would have been a solid bench option for us that year (and backup to Ramirez) if he’d been able to put up the .275 wOBA he’s put up since leaving here.
I don’t have much more to say about Bradley, that’s been talked to death. The worse move, to me anyway, and the one that even as a general fan of Hendry I can’t get past from that year is the one to turn Felix Pie into the awful Aaron Heilman… the only explanation I can think of that could even remotely justify that move was if it was to set up a Peavy trade… but even then, you should make that trade contingent, not do it just in case. Heilman’s never been good, and Pie has been a useful piece for the Orioles.
Agreed on Pie, especially considering that the Cubs ...
got Gathright to replace him.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
The peavy saga...
Oh how I do miss it.
by SenorGato on May 21, 2011 12:11 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I love it
when you guys re-write history to suit yourselves.
After being moved to the bullpen in early 2005, for three straight years, Aaron Heilman was one of the best relief pitchers in baseball. For the rest of 2005 his ERA was 2.18, and in the 2nd half it was 0.68.
In 2006 it was 3.62 in 76 appearances and 2007 it was 3.03 in 81 appearances.
His ERA and WHIP increased dramatically in 2008, no doubt due to overwork. He was traded to Seattle for J.J. Putz and then to the Cubs before Spring Training.
Clearly he has not been the same pitcher since, but for 3 years he was as good as it got as the main set up guy in NY, and to say he’s never been good is just B.S.
just out of curiosity is there any Cub that you won't defend?
Or are you of the all Cubs are do there best all the time so how dare we even think about being critical of them. When even Cubs announcers sometime are
by Madison Cub Fan on May 19, 2011 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I think their are alot of things to criticize.
And I do think all the players try really hard. I defend them when they are labeled as lazy, or when someone says they aren’t trying. Because that is clearly false. They all want to win more than we want them to.
People can also criticize the production of certain players, but they better be able to back it up.
As far as Hendry goes, he is just like alot of other GM’s. He has made good and bad moves. Go ahead and criticize, but my statement above still stands. I think the 2009 team was put together to win, and if everything had gone the way is should have. The Cubs would have been in the playoffs that year.
So what are these things you think that can be criticize
by Madison Cub Fan on May 19, 2011 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions
So you have more problems with Byrd's deal ...
than Bradley’s or Miles’? WHAT?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Ugh
I said ALMOST every player decision from mid-2009 onward. So no, I don’t mind Byrds contract. And I also never said I didn’t have any problems with Bradley or Miles. Just not as much of a problem with them as you.
Don’t jump to such conclusions.
Take your own advice.
I didn’t say you said you had no problems with the Bradley or Miles contracts.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
hendry's actions in 07-09 are the reason why the cubs are in the mess they are
ESPN Stroke Count for the month of May: 3
by jesus christos on May 19, 2011 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Well it was well worth it then.
Those seasons were really really fun to watch. Especially because the Cubs were so good.
you know what they say
“what goes up…”
ESPN Stroke Count for the month of May: 3
by jesus christos on May 19, 2011 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions
But 2007-2009 was the product of spending like a sailor on liberty
And a lot of that spending is what is handicapping the team today. Hendry has yet to demonstrate that he can develop a plan to build a roster that contends year in and year out.
Disagree.
It takes more than 2 years to develop a useful farm system.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
We could probably quibble over the word "useful."
Contributing Editor, SB Nation Chicago. Please follow us on Twitter!
I typically ignore the petty semantic arguments.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Part of what makes a farm system "useful"
Is that you can trade prospects who may or may not pan out for proven major league talent.
by Jody Jody Davis on May 19, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Matt Garza is a "proven major league talent", yes.
And he does exactly what for us that other than the same thing #3 or #2 pitchers we already had/have do?
It’s a moot trade—it doesn’t make us better to win the division or put more butts in the seats, or entice other FAs to sign and play with a guy. What exactly did we accomplish? I’d rather risk on non-proven MLB talent than trade away prospects for some guy that takes us from 87 to 88 wins.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
To a point, I agree with you
The trade doesn’t do anything for us this year. But trying to look at this trade as generously towards the Cubs front office as possible, the only way it made sense at all was if they felt Garza wouldn’t be available to them at the same time next year, so they went for it now while keeping the next two seasons in mind. If the Cubs do reload this off-season when all the big contracts come off the books and there’s money to spend, I’d rather have Garza for 2012 and 2013 than Archer, since Garza’s a proven talent on what could be a quickly re-built contender.
by Jody Jody Davis on May 19, 2011 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
There's nothing to suggest the dumbass management is going to reload in 2012 or 2013.
2011 was a great year to do just this (coming off a -12 games under .500 with bloated contracts and aging players is a great time do so) and instead we traded for spending more money.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Why was 2011 a great year to reload?
We were locked in at nearly every position — except at places with little FA talent — and we had little money to spend.
Unless you mean ‘reload’ in the sense of letting the kids play.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I don’t find any value in guys like Garza and Pena because we aren’t good enough to move the needle enough with or without them. An extra $16,000,000 for those two could be used for something else—or saved—for when we have a team that can be competitive. This is a team that lost 12 games last year, did anybody really think we were going to compete for the division? Yes, I’m talking about pulling up some of the minor leaguers and preparing for 2012 and beyond.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Lost 12 games last year? Huh?
Anyway, by your definition of ‘reload’, I agree with you. The most interesting thing about the Cubs right now is watching the kids.
I had some hope that the Cubs might win 85 and steal a division. That was clearly misplaced.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Oh.
I think a lot of us were fooled by the strong finish, by Z’s resurgence and the fact that Quade might have been a Cub Whisperer.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Coming off of last year
many of us were hoping that just having an engaged butt in the drivers seat was worth a few wins – then go from Lee to Pena was worth a few more – unfortunately the calendar passed into another year and the players we needed to play at just their career averages have either (seemingly) contracted ALS (Soriano) or have completely forgotten how to swing a bat or field a ball (Ramirez)
Plus we lost 40% of our starting rotation during the first week of the season
And two of the three starting pitchers who didn’t get hurt currently have ERA’s of 4.89 and 6.91.
by Jody Jody Davis on May 19, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I can't really complain about the Pena signing.
I think it was finally something Hendry did right. Sign a one year deal to a guy who could have potentially had a great year in Chicago. He’ll be gone after this year, giving them a shot at Fielder or Pujols.
If you don't see the difference between Garza and Dempster...
or even Z at this point then…yeah…I could see why you’re so bleak on Garza.
I'm not bleak per se on Garza.
For brevity’s sake, I don’t understand the point of making the trade when it’s not enough to put this team in contention this year. Why make a trade for something we considered to be a strength in 2010 and 2009? Going into the season we thought pitching was the best thing the Cubs had going? Management makes it seem like it’s preparing for the future and speaks of (or maybe I’m just thinking they care about young talent and prospects because we at BCB talk about it so much) improving for the future, but I don’t understand how Garza fits into that.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
well if you think
that Garza is a high 3 right now and should move into being a solid two or weak 1 then you are hoping that he replaces Lilly this year and Dempster next year and then you have a solid #2 starter on your hands to go with Z who is cost controlled for 12 & 13
If we can land a big time ace and keep Wells we will be looking at a stacked rotation for 2012
Agree, but who is that "big time ace"
Don’t see one coming up on the FA market, so the Cubs will need to look to developing that guy. They probably also won’t spend the $$$$$ for both a big bat for 1B and a #1 FA pitcher. I really think that the amount of money the Ricketts borrowed to buy the team is constraining payroll, at least until they pay off the $175M bank loan.
I don’t have a problem with getting Garza, but they really need to follow on in developing the staff for 2012 and beyond.
I think they plan to build up.
I seriously doubt they went in thinking that theyre set I’m the rotation for the next 5 years by picking up one guy. This is especially true given the age and performance of dempster and zambramo to an extent.
I think they’ll grab a 1b this offseason and a pitcher or two in the 2013 fa crop.
by SenorGato on May 20, 2011 1:52 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
But we don't need to build completely from the farm system.
We’ll have some money to spend for the first time in three offseasons, and we have some talent in the pipeline.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
You know we're spending more money by having Garza on this team
than with the prospects we traded away, right?
So we actually have less money with Garza.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Quite aware of that.
But you also know that Garza’s more of a sure bet to help the team in 2012 and possibly 2013 than any of the prospects traded. Lee is still in A ball, Archer’s getting beat up and Chirinos is not hitting well in the minors.
If we’re talking about being competitive in the next two years (which is what I thought we were talking about) Garza is the best bet. I’m not saying I loved the trade, but Garza is a reasonably priced pitcher who is a legit No. 2-3 who’s not making THAT much money.
And I think you knew that the big contracts I referred to belonged to Kosuke, Aramis, Silva, Grabow and Shark.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Yes, I'm sorry.
I’m crabby when I talk about the Cubs’ management.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
You're preaching to the choir on that one.
I’m not endorsing the trade, I’m also not decrying it. But even if we throw out 2011, Garza’s the best bet to help the Cubs in 2012 (among the guys traded).
Now, you could argue that the Cubs should have gotten someone else for all that talent. But that’s another discussion.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
6 million for a proven workhorse entering his prime for a big market team...
IS way too much. Oh wait…it isn’t.
The point is that Garza isn’t putting our cup runneth over.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
The point is lame because...i
it’s a team sport and no one starting pitcher is going to do that. If Felix Hernandez was traded here (and it’d cost more than those 5), he’d still be a top tier pitcher on a crappy team. Garza isn’t in that tier, but his talent level is clearly above his teammates and he’s here to stay and make a positive impact.
It’s the job of the Cubs to keep putting players on the field…Garza and Castro are a hell of a start as we move forward…and Jackson should make it three…
The “he doesn’t put us over the top” argument is lame…the fact is he makes this team better…it’s not his fault the rest of the roster is meh…keep in mind this is only year 1.
I can agree with that.
If he fits into our long-term plan then I can accept it more. Trading away prospects for him really muddies the water for me, however.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Just remind yourself that prospects are the girls of baseball...
If you lose one there’s a gazillion others to replace it.
I know this because I’m really cool and I get alot of girls.
Well that settles this discussion.
I laughed, well done sir.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I wish the Cubs had the guts to do what the Rays did and just replace the slow, lazy, one trick pony LF with a young, fast, good fielding leadoff type.
Of course Manny retired….We can only wish Soriano would…..
Campana should start today in LF……
They sure took off when he started playing....
I guess you missed him playing defense…..
You probably think Soriano should not come out for defense…..
He also ha more HR than ARam......and more stolen bases than the entire Cub team.
But yeah, he sucks….
Yes. Sam Fuld sucks.
And twice on Sunday.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 20, 2011 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Like your argument.....
I guess he could hit cleanup for the Cubs since his stats are better than our guy….
Ramirez .290/.350/.366 .716 OPS not exactly what we should expect....but much better than Fuld.
Soriano .259/.291/.524 .816 OPS again, not what I want from him exactly, but much better than little Sammy Fuld.
Both have hollow averages.....neither one in hitting with RISP......very poor clutch hitting.
Both are below avg in the field.
Both give less than their best effort most of the time.
I would put both on the bench for about a week.
That's why you're not a manager.
Real coaches know they need to play the more talented players.
And real leaders can tell the difference between genuine effort with little results and going through the motions and collecting a check.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 19, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Their is literally nothing you have to support this statement.
And don’t tell me you can see it. What you see on TV means nothing. If these guys weren’t trying it would be obvious. Like Manny Ramirez when he wanted out of Boston obvious.
You’re wrong here. These guys are still trying.
I hate when guys jog out of the box (which is one of the main reasons I like Byrd)
but that’s an MLB wide phenomenon, by no means specific to the Cubs.
We'll all miss you Ron.
Um...OK....and likewise there is also nothing you have to support your premise that the converse is true.
All we have is our opinions. This is such a subjective topic, let’s agree that neither one of us can be proven correct.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 19, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly, lj is the type I like to make trades with in fantasy baseball!!!!!
Can always find a sucker for a name player who is not producing……
Funny you should write that
Because Maddon who is considered one of the better managers LOVES Fuld. He has had one game off since the first one he started. Maddon thinks he is spark plug that started the team winning (the losing streak ended the day after his first start)
To tell you the truth I have been surprised Maddon has not put Fuld on the bench during his slump, he really values his defense. There was an article last week ( which for obvious reasons I did not post) that analyzed Fuld’s fielding, speed and hitting for contact and said that even if he only hit .240 he was worth starting.
http://www.therxforum.com/showthread.php?t=845307
I don’t know if I would start Fuld every day in this slump,but the real point is Madden and Tampa understand the value of defense, speed etc and the Cubs do not. I hate to say this but Fuld or Campana would be better than Soriano and his 11 HR. How many runs has Soriano cost this season. I would think 10-15 combining his horrific fielding and his terrible base running.
On the Garza trade it is just absurdly early to judge and Al is stacking the deck.
Garza has been good but it may not help much this season, yes they have him for two more seasons but Lee , Archer & Guyer will be Tampa’s for 6 years each and you can not judge anything now. Fuld is just a small bonus since the Cubs were never going to keep him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Well so far....
Soriano 0.5 WAR
Fuld 0.6 WAR
Very similar value so far. I still think Soriano is the better choice, more RBI chances. It’s pretty unlikely that Fuld is as valuble as Soriano by the end of the season.
I just don't think WAR
can properly value defense. Many of Soriano’s mistakes were not errors because he never touched the ball, he fell down or it sailed past him. There is no way watching Soriano field this season he would not a negative WAR if those things were taken into account. Perhaps you can tell me how WAR would account for Soriano falling and letting runs score when no error is charged?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
ugh
I know you really want to think Fuld is better than Soriano. But he just wont be when all is said and done.
If Soriano keeps hitting like he has, he’ll easily be better.
WAR is an aggregate statistic
It doesn’t evaluate defense.
It uses UZR. Here is a writeup about UZR.
UZR takes into account if a fielder gets to more or less balls than average. So it takes into account scenarios like the one you’ve described – one you assume that it misses even though you don’t know anything about the statistic.
by Wreckard on May 19, 2011 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just to clarify
By “doesn’t evaluate defense” I mean that it doesn’t inherently value anything, it aggregates the component values of a player and puts them into a number that purports to show how many wins they are worth above replacement.
Actually I looked it up before posting
but it simply does not take into account how bad Soriano is. You can’t really make a stat to describe a fielder who so frequently fails to play a ball correctly resulting in many runs scoring. The current ZR lists Fuld as worse then Soriano, does anyone in their right mind think that is true? If so call Joe Maddon because if he thinks Soriano is better fielder than Fuld we should be able to get Tampa to take him at a cut rate price.
This is one of those do I believe my lying eyes or a stat and there is no way anyone who has watched the Cubs this season does not know that Soriano has cost the Cubs runs well into the double digits.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
agreed and rec'd
this is where the old eye test comes in – especially for defense – there is never going to be a defensive metric that will tell you as much as scouting a guy…
Right now I would take Campana in LF and Fuld in CF every single day of the week over Soriano and Byrd…HR’s be damned
I would not take Fuld over Byrd
I would take a RJ/Campana platoon over Soriano but I don’t see how you bench a guy making that much.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
If you think this offense sucks now with Soriano...
I have no idea how you even survived IMAGINING those guys in the everyday lineup.
in real life you are correct
and fortunately my statement didnt live in real life…
I agree, you have to try to get as much value as you can out of Soriano – which means we will probably see A LOT of 7th inning switches going forward
That's because you don't understand the stat.
Because he falls down and is afraid of walls, he gets to fewer balls on average than other left fielders. Why he gets to fewer is unimportant – but measurable.
What’s also possible – and not captured by the “eye test” is that Soriano’s speed gets him to balls that other left fielders may not get to, and that his arm saves runs that other left fielders might not save. It’s important to look at these things marginally, not anecdotally.
The current ZR lists Fuld as worse then Soriano, does anyone in their right mind think that is true?
Not to deflate your cherry picking here, but UZR has Soriano at -2.5 on the season and Fuld at 4.4 so I’m not sure what you’re talking about. At any rate, you can’t really look at a stat like UZR over a small sample size like the 2011 season – it’s pretty unstable.
I’m not saying UZR is perfect. But until the Field FX stuff starts going public like Pitch FX did we won’t really have anything better to go on, and I’d still trust UZR over my eyes any day of the week.
by Wreckard on May 19, 2011 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What happens when he fails to get to balls is very
measurable at least this season. He is a flat out liability in the field and I have seen no sign at all that his speed gets him to more balls. Byrd and Dome both cover more ground than Sori.
The main point is I only care about the 2011 season. Sori was good once, the point is he is per above totally dreadful, and costing the Cubs games. He needs to be a DH in the AL if anyone will take him for a portion of the contract.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Well good sir you wrote what I was going to say.
Recommended.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Correction
“He has had one game off since the first one he started.”
Actually, Fuld did not start in 2 of the 3 games vs Marlins last weekend and 1 of 2 games vs Blue Jays the series before that.
Don’t know if he was nursing an injury or whether it was because he was slumping badly (I expect it was the latter, because he did go in as a defensive replacement in a couple of games), but in any event, last Thurs-Sunday, he did not start in 3 out of 4 games,
Did you just refer to Soriano's BA as hollow?
The guy has 11 HRs. For awhile there, it was HR or nothing.
Per above
There is no question in my mind he has cost the Cubs at least 11 runs in bad fielding and base running. How many innings would the Cubs have been out of where runs scored but for Sori’s putrid defense and then add a few for his base running. I know this is a pipe dream but I am hoping he hits up a storm in interleague and the Cubs can find someone who will pay 30 cents on the dollar for his contract. He just can’t field and he needs to be a DH.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions
FWIW
Per FanGraphs, Soriano’s WAR so far this season is 0.5. Fuld’s is 0.6
by Jody Jody Davis on May 19, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, I wasn't defending Soriano
I can’t stand the guy. His “effort” out there is laughable. I was just making the comment that a .260 BA with 11 HRs and a SLG% over .500 is far from hollow. Aramis, OTOH, has a completely hollow BA. Byrd as well.
Funny I like Soriano
Unlike A-Ram he tries hard, but he just does not have it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Soriano is just a very flawed baseball player ...
whose physical gifts have declined to the point where his pluses don’t outweigh his minuses. I don’t question is heart.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I have said it before
(and I am not trying to compare the two per se) but I wonder if this is what Gehrig looked like at the the end of his career…the play at the plate the other day sold it to me – Soriano WANTS to do good and tries his ass off but it just isnt there anymore
Plenty of guys don't appear to give alot of effort.
But if they weren’t, they wouldn’t be playing. And his teammates would be pretty pissed.
Bob Brenly would disagree.
Aramis does his share of half-assing it. On the whole, he’s been a net-plus over the years, but he still isn’t exactly Charlie Hustle.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Oh of course not. But I don't hold that against a guy.
If the player is talented enough, the production will be there. I am willing to bet Ramirez ends up at his career norms this season.
I know it’s kind of a tough subject for some around here. But If a guy doesn’t run everywhere like Marlon Byrd, I don’t care. Pujols does it all the time and he’s still the best in the game.
It always seems to be Latino players who get this criticism leveled against them
I’m not crying racism here, just making an observation.
Also, for as much as people like to bandy about the cliché that the baseball season is a marathon and not a sprint, they sure seem to hate players who treat it that way.
I completely agree. This kind of thing in so pointless to discuss.
I also agree that it does seem like only certain players get this kind of treatment.
I remember DeRosa, Theriot, and RJ jogging quite a bit, never heard a peep from the crowd here who give Ramirez and Soriano crap for it.
I agree, and it made me think of the following:
Doesn’t Aramis have a history of groin-related injuries? Further, aren’t a lot of these injuries seen right out of the box? Methinks full-speed running out of the box would increase a chance of reoccurrence. I know, a lot of conclusion jumping, but just thinking aloud here.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
That probably has something to do with it.
Ever since he hurt himself he does take it easier on the bases.
It reminds me of all the people that still complain Ramirez doesn’t try on defense. Even after they watched him rip is arm off diving for a ball.
What a bum. lol
and a lot of people
cried about Byrd having a crappy last half of the year last year – maybe there is a reason he had a crappy last half?
The summer after I got out of the Army I played a ton of softball – one point I played 10 games in 2 weeks and was wiped out afterwards…granted these guys are in much better shape that I was but to expect them to sprint out every play every day for 6 months is unreasonable
When he starts running out grounders you let me know
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I know I've seen Sam Fuld half-ass his way to first on ground balls and pop flies.
It doesn’t mean he isn’t trying. Come on, this argument is ridiculous due to the amount of players who do it regularly. i’d say over 90% of the players do this kind of thing.
Now before anyone accuses of wanting the players to do this, I have to say I don't.
But it seems so trivial, and hardly a reason to not like a guy.
I don't have respect for players who don't play hard
even if as in the case of Ramirez they have enourmous talent. Of course A-Ram is a better player than say Fuld, but does not mean I have to like him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions
So you have no respect for Ramirez.....
or Pujols
or Longoria
or Utley
or Howard…..
Or anyone else who plays the game. Except for Fuld. He’s just more respectable. Gotcha.
?????
Where in the world to you get that from. All I said was I don’t like or respect players who don’t play hard. I have never seen anything to suggest any of those guys does not play hard.
I like a whole bunch players
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
They all play just like Ramirez.
They don’t run out routine ground balls and pop ups regularly. So by using you’re logic, they all don’t try very hard.
I think you’re just nitpicking Ramirez because he hasn’t made you happy this year.
Do you actually watch games?
Has anyone ever seen Byrd dog a ground out. I have been critical of A-Ram for years when he was the Cubs best hitter. No all players do not fail to run out grounders on a regular basis or run full speed. He does sometimes but he seems to decide when it matters that he run or fields full out.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Really Pujols & Longaria
don’t run out grounders. ( I don’t see much of Howard or Utley) ? On what planet?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
You must be joking.
You are delusional if you think they don’t jog around like everyone else.
I’m done with this. You are just completely wrong. Try opening you’re eyes sometime, because you are incredibly naive.
I'm walking away.
Have a good last word. I’m sure you need it.
Now that I think of it Griffey JR
was a real slacker.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Just stop, dude.
She’s always right, always.
And nobody watches more games, uses more tickets for hats, or bitches about tickets and flying around the country for games.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
So Dan
You agree Pujols does not play hard and all managers are the same?
I just want to know and I will give you last word.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on May 19, 2011 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Of cours you don't
You prefer snarky comments to factual arguements
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
No, Jessica.
I don’t think running out a slow grounder to 2B is indicative of a quality player. In fact, your argument is crazy and ridiculous.
It’s insane that you would comment that I prefer snarky comments to facts; I’ve been using facts to discredit Sam Fuld this entire year, and now that he’s regressed to his career numbers you conveniently decide to ignore the facts. Talk about ass-backwards.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Well I never have
Let me know when you have a clip. Do you think that the broadcasters and beat writers who follow the Cubs regularly are in a conspiracy against A-Ram because I am pretty sure they have all mentioned it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
It's incredibly overblown.
Like I said, and I completely believe it to be true. IMO I would guess 90% of the players do this, maybe more.
I will actually guarantee you that Fuld does it. Just watch. Or maybe you’re lying eyes will tell you otherwise. Which I’m guessing is the case.
I don't want to agrue about this anymore, it's really pointless.
I guess you can create an opinion on a person’s character and effort by how they run to first on and easy ground ball.
I’m willing to bet that none of the Cubs have a problem with Ramirez’s effort.
I know...
I mean he should run everything out hard and risk hurting a hamstring like Zambrano did on his bunt.
That is what gets me the most.
Zambrano hustles as much as anyone, but he gets crap for it from the same people who expect Ramirez to do it. That’s an odd exception to make. lol
Has anyone ever criticized
Zambrano’s lack of hustle?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm saying alot of people got on Z's case when he got hurt running as hard as he could
It was a weird double standard.
I’m not saying he got criticized for a lack of hustle…..he got criticized for running his hardest then getting hurt. It was weird.
I think people questioned pitchers
running at all but not Z specifically. I am old fashioned and I think pitchers should hit and run and I love Z’s all out play.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions
PS. Watchin A.J Burnett last nigt
reminded me how much I hate the DH.
Circumstances forced him to go in as a pinch runner in the 15th and he never moved off he base.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Those are Hendry favorite ones to give NTC's to.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 19, 2011 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
That's weird.
A completely unrelated conversation was brought back around to Hendry bashing. That’s so weird, that never happens.
We'll all miss you Ron.
by alkappy on May 19, 2011 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Back this statement up.
Who has Hendry given a NTC to?
I hear this all the time and am curious what NTC’s he’s given out that are so egregious.
Garza is our #1 starter right now.
I think he will continue to be. However, it will take 2 to 3 years to evaluate this deal.
Fuld is a good fourth outfielder. Maybe Archer isn’t as good as we thought he was. Chirinos and Guyer maybe have been around too long to be real prospects. Hak Ju Lee is the wild card. He could be really good.
We shall see....
I think Campana is close to being what Fuld is….So losing him is less and less important….
I would just hope the Cubs would play Campana……But they wont.
I think the Cubs will regret losing Guyer
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Now it's Guyer too?
What’s the affinity for dime a dozen OFers?
Never got the love for Guyer, either.
He’s a 4th OFer.
We could discuss our golf games and give each other tips...
my chipping game has completely left me these past 2 months….any suggestions?
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 19, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I keep misreading the greens in Tiger Woods 2010...
does ^^^^^^>>>>>>>> mean its uphill breaking right more than ^ ^ ^ > > > > , or less?
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981
depends on what you're doing. Try chipping with a 7 iron instead of lofted wedges.
It’ll give you more control and you can treat it more like a long put than trying to keep it controlled in the air.
Are you leaving it short or hitting long?
I'm blading it most of the time...and when I try and concentrate on "hitting down" more...I'm hitting it really fat.
On the bright side, my approach shots have gotten a lot better since I’ve tweaked my swing so I’m hitting more greens and not having to chip as often. My last round I literally used only the putter whenever I was within 10 feet of the green so I wouldn’t have to chip….and I actually scored a bit better than normal for me.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on May 19, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
switch to a 7 iron.
drop your back foot away from the ball and treat it like a putt. Try to get the ball around 1/3 of the way to the hole in the air. No wrists, just a simple putt stroke.
Blading is one of the biggest issues with chipping. I remember I had a hell of a time with my 60 degree loft wedge for a long while doing the same thing.
This thread is worthy of a non-game day
I like it.
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
by RiskyBusiness on May 19, 2011 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
This is great advice
Either use the 7 iron as bd has suggested, or choke down on you lob wedge and crouch a bit more.
The problem with using the putter in those situations is that you might hit it too hard and it scoots past the hole.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 20, 2011 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I think an important measure of this trade, was the FA climate it took place in.
Looking at the landscape of 2011-2012, the Cubs were going to need to add a real quality major league starter in his prime, to round out the top of the rotation. They needed to replace Ted Lilly’s performance, and also needed to look toward the future as Ryan Dempster heads into his option year of 2012 (and possible final season with the Cubs).
The FA class of 2011 didn’t really allow the Cubs to sign a Matt Garza-type, and the FA class of 2012 doesn’t offer much of anything either, unless Sabathia opts out of his contract, and hits a huge payday outside of New York.
So, the deal accomplished something for the Cubs, that couldn’t be accomplished in free agency.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
I should add...
The Rays are the best in the biz at scouting and player development. And trading any young prospects their way is worrisome, since they’re so good at evaluating talent.
3 years from now, it will probably come down to a Garza vs H-J Lee comparison.
You should also remember that, before the 2008 season, the Rays traded Delmon Young, Jason Pridie, and Brendan Harris to the Twins, for Matt Garza, Jason Bartlett and Eduardo Morlan.
Garza finished that season as the 2008 ALCS MVP.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Completely underrated after the FA climate
was the prospect climate. Last year was hailed as a down year for prospects due to graduations and what not. The Cubs took full advantage of that…I mean really, in a top system in a normal year is Chris Archer REALLY a #1 type prospect like BA had him?
This is one of the most shrewd moves Hendry has made since ARam/Lee…it’s probably the only shrewd move he’s made since then.
I learned just how overrated prospects can be after this trade…we lost 5 guys…two of them have truly significant major league talent…one of those guys has gotten killed above High A….and everyone still shat their pants over losing them…two of the five players are 25 or older too…it’s like…what?
The FA point is truly an excellent one too…so many reasons I love this trade.
Um there is a very obvious answer to this
Sam Fuld
I doubt anyone can argue with that. Whatever you think of him, he has gotten to play everyday and become a media sensation Vs at best riding the Cubs bench.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
Sam Fuld's career OPS+: 85.
Sam Fuld’s career OPS+ in 2011: 84.
May: 10 hits in 66 ABs.
Last 7 Days: .375 OPS
Last 14 Days: .455 OPS
Last 28 Days: .466 OPS
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
You may think he sucks Dan
but Maddon doesn’t and I think he holds a litle more weight. In any event he has gotten an opportunity he never would have had with the Cubs so he is the clear winner in the trade.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes Maddon has a terrible record
The Cubs would never want him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
He certainly would be losing here. This team sucks.
If Quade were managing the Rays, I honestly think they’d be just as good as they are now.
OK so you think Quade and Maddon are basically the same
Wow just Wow.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I just know that managers don't matter very much.
If the players suck, the team is going to suck.
No some managers get player to play well above their potential
and some are just better at things like massaging egos, keeping a team focused in a slump, not tolerating bad playing etc. Maddon is very good and most people wrote his team off for dead after the first week of the season.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Anyone who wrote off the Rays after the first week was dumb to begin with.
It was such a small sample to make any real judgment.
And how can you say those qualities in a manager even mean anything to the team? Is there any evidence of this? Here is a good article on a mangers impact.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/cliff_corcoran/08/26/managers.impact/index.html
Some managers can keep their teams loose through slumps
and others can’t. Much of the value of managers has to do with their off field interaction with players. No stat for that of course.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think you understand how statistics work
If a manager makes his teams win more games, that is measurable by an obscure stat called “Wins”.
If a manager can make his players play better, their improved play will be measurable.
Unless you’re saying that the way in which they improve doesn’t affect their ability to score or prevent runs, or doesn’t make them win more. If that’s what you’re arguing then I’d argue that if it doesn’t affect those things it doesn’t matter anyway.
Hmph, wins sounds like an arbitrary statistic to me.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I reacted the same way when I read this zomg we lost FULD! stuff...
Wow just wow then a “really?”
Maddon is starting Fuld because their top LF prospect isn’t ready yet, and Fuld plays defense better than most LFers. Not because Fuld is good…that idea is absolutely laughable.
I'd actually argue Jennings is ready, but they fear super 2 (if such a thing will exist).
The kid is hitting very well in AAA.
As someone who follows the Rays every day
You are wrong. I imagine Fuld will end up back on the bench but Maddon does love him and he has found a place where his skills are appreciated.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions
What manager is going to dislike a guy like Fuld?
Seriously…he’s a survivor who, despite a serious lack of talent or hitting skill, has made it to the bigs because of personality, defense, and energy.
WHO is going to dislike that? It means nothing to LIKE him, or even give him a few starts when there’s not really anyone else proven to give the starts to. They’re using him because they can and he’s been useful, as they hoped. It doesn’t make him a good player or even close to a major loss for the Cubs.
He is not a loss for the Cubs
because they were never going to use him, he is a major assett to the Rays. Hey I am pretty sure Lou liked Fuld, but liking a guy and thinking he is a valuable player are two different things so I probably used the wrong phrase. As you might guess I keep pretty close tabs on Fuld and it has been hard to watch him the last month at the plate but not as hard as you think. He has still been getting key hits, able to sacrifice etc. His BA sucks but he has 7 RBIs in the last 2 weeks on unllike Sori’s HR’s they have been in clutch situations. His defense remains extraordinary and the Rays as an organization have always placed great value on that. I wish the Cubs would.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions
He's not a "major asset to the rays"
Desmond Jennings could come in right now and do the exact same thing as Fuld. The only thing Fuld is for the Rays is a stop gap.
A major asset?
Hyperbole much?
Fuld will be looking for a new team within the next 3 years. Meanwhile, Garza will kick ass and take names.
Also the Rays care so much about defense because it
matter of factly improves their greatest strength, which is pitching.
And I'm glad we here at BCB have you to determine who's opinion matters, Jessica.
There you go, putting words into my mouth. Again.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Since you take pleasure in repeatedly mocking Fuld
what exactly did I put in your mouth? I said that regardless of what you think of him he was the big winner because he got a starting job and was a media sensation and you post his bad stats for the last month. What that a response to except to exactly?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Words form sentences. Sentences form thoughts.
Or so you’d think.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Sorry I still don't get it Dan
I made up that you mock Fuld or that your response that he was who won the trade was a non sequitur . Please explain and this is not a snark.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess I am dense
Again I wrote that Fuld got two months of playing time and became a media sensation in Tampa which had no chance of in Chicago so he was the clear winner in the trade and Dan posts back his month of bad stats. As I said it does not matter what you think of Fuld, he has his run in the sun and if he never plays another inning he comes out on top in this trade.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on May 19, 2011 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions
he got a lot of fan love in 2007 when he was called up
and made enough of an impression that Lou kept him on the playoff roster. I dont buy into the whole “he got no attention in Chicago”
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
What? You didn't want to write the "The Sun Life Streaker: Full Analysis Of The Antics Of A Naked Man" piece
baffling
"Easy on the words, brother,'' Quade said.
That's a Jon Bois specialty.
He loves making those diagrams.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
It's been 6 weeks...
but I’ll always say the Cubs on this. Garza’s the man here…he’s already our first or second best starter and I don’t think he’s even scratched the surface.
by SenorGato on May 19, 2011 3:54 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Not to say he's a future ace...
just that we’ll be glad to have him once this team is playoff ready.
This shouldn't be discussed until at LEAST until the offseason.
And it will probably take years to determine, especially with how young and talented Lee is.
If Lee's the only thing of significance that's given up...
then I’m fine. It’s not like we’re lacking in a ML SS or MIF prospects anyway.
Yea, I've always wondered the heartbreak over Lee
When we have a younger, better SS
We'll all miss you Ron.
IIRC...
Castro has infrequently been projected as sliding over to second. So the spot would be open. Not saying this makes a huge difference in analyzing this trade, but we could find a way to maintain two young middle infielder stars. Now Lee certainly isn’t a star, but if that did happen, I think we’d have been okay with it.
He was projected to slide to 2nd because Lee was SO good defensively at SS
That it only made sense to move Castro over. He certainly doesn’t need to slide over based on his skill set.
And the Cubs have a number of candidates for 2B, including Darwin Barney
That’s probably why they decided they could use Lee in a trade.
I highly doubt...
that having Darwin Barney figured in their decision in the slightest bit. They included Lee because that’s what it took to seal the deal.
Garza stepped it up by throwing his breaking balls more.
His luck on balls in play i believe has been better lately and his ERA is coming closer to his FIP.
I think he will continue to pitch well and strike out a lot of batters.
He did strike out 180 something batters 2 years ago in the AL. So i could see him striking out around 200 batters in the NL.
At least we are getting more value out of Garza than the Brewers are getting out of Greinke.
Love Garza
Hate how much we gave up to get him. Also hate that it led to Hendry making other ill-advised moves which hurt this ballclub. I think we look back in 10 yrs and say the Rays got more production from their end than we did. But if Garza pitches in a WS game for us, we don’t care.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on May 20, 2011 11:16 AM CDT reply actions
It'll be a while before we can tell who won or who lost
I hope both teams got what they needed and benefit from it.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 20, 2011 3:39 PM CDT reply actions
Given that I like Lee...
I actually think this is the most likely outcome. It’s possible for both teams to win a trade, as much as that doesn’t work nowadays.
Ideally,
every trade should be one in which both teams benefit.
by Not Bruce Froemming on May 20, 2011 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions
dont ya know that the other 47 teams are here to help the Cubs get better only
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
It is better to spend money like there's no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there's no money! - Irish toast.
yup
and 19 out of 2 Drs recommend watching the Cubs to cure Heart Problems
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
It is better to spend money like there's no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there's no money! - Irish toast.
i know
pena misses tampa but garza is your typical mercenary ball player. pay me and ill go anywhere. im glad it was chicago.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bleed Cubbie Blue
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
Cubs By The Numbers
Cubs By The Numbers is a history of the ballclub by uniform number, but the biographies help trace the history of our beloved team in a new way. For everyone who's a Cubs fan, anyone who ever wore the uniform is like family. Cubs By The Numbers reintroduces readers to some of their long-lost ancestors, even ones they think they already know.
Click here to order your copy, available now!
Recent Stories in Chicago Cubs Game Threads
Recent Stories in Ticket Exchanges
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
