Kicking more offseason tires...CJ Wilson.
by SenorGato on May 5, 2011 1:14 AM CDT
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PrintAfter CC Sabathia and Chris Carpenter, the best pitcher in next year's FA class is CJ Wilson. Wilson got be to known last postseason as the straight edge former reliever turned starter/student of Cliff Lee and Mike Maddux. Some might be turned off by the 30+ tag on a pitcher, but Wilson has been building himself into a legit TOR pitcher the past couple of years. Last year he was the #2 on Texas' surprise WS team, and lived up to the billing with surprisingly good stuff, toughness, mechanics, and improving command. He's also ridiculously good at keeping the ball in the park, allowing only 10 HRs in 200+ innings last year despite throwing his home games in a place that used to define bandbox.
Here's a guy who I think is on the way up despite being the dreaded age of 30, and who can and will pitch in the top half of a championship caliber club. Is he a true ace in the Sabathia sense? Nope, but he's a "gamer" type who works extremely hard at his craft and has developed himself into a very good starter. He's got good stuff from the left side too with a fastball that hits 94-95, a swing and miss curveball, and a cutter he's learning to command and control better.
If the Cubs were to splurge next offseason, Wilson would be #2 on my wish list after one of the big first basemen. Maybe I'm missing someone, but that's only a maybe. It's 6-7 years too late for Beltran and it seems ominous to move Castro for Reyes (like Reyes for Matsui). Carpenter could happen if things went really well, but even then I think I'd prefer the younger more left handed pitcher.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Straight edge racer, ftw!
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Not a bad idea, but...
assuming Z and Demp stick around and Cashner isn’t lost forever, there’s probably no spot for him.
Also, bigger need for offense.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
I think Dempster follows Lilly path
A contender would love to pick up a dependable RHP for the stretch run, Dempster’s only caveat is he has a player option for 2012…but he could be traded again or kept.
Piniella: "This is a tougher job than I thought it would be, I'm going to be honest with you."
+1
Love Dempster but I think the organization would be willing to move on to improve the long term talent of the team. He deserves to pitch for a winner, and he’d look great in the 4 spot for a top tier contender who wants it.
Z should be here as the long time rotation anchor that the organization developed themselves.
Dempster...
… as pointed out, has a player option. He’s likely not going anywhere.
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IIRC
Demp also is a 10/5 so he technically has a NTC
Chronologically inept since 2060
Q: Why did Chuck Norris cross the road?
A: Ditka
Ditka's mustache can block a Chuck Norris round house
Ditka's mustache can kill two stones with one bird
Yeah. Unless Dempster finishes the year so damn good that he wants to test FA
He’s not going anywhere. He’ll pick up that $14MM option.
I don’t know if a trade triggers that option.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
unless he thinks he is declining
and has an ok year…then he may want to cash in on a Lilly-style 3 year deal
We need to turnover our rotation, and I can point to this year's FA market,
as a catalyst for the Garza trade.
But, I do not want us spending through the roof on a CJ Wilson, just because it’s a weak FA market. That’s never a good recipe.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Not only that
… it’s possible Trey McNutt might compete for a spot in the 2012 rotation.
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There's that as well...
It’s really important for our farm to make in impact in the rotation next year.
I see Z and Garza as fixtures, Demp as an unknown, and Wells, Cashner, and the farm as keys to filling it out.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Among others
Jay Jackson is probably the 1st guy to get a shot at the rotation of the minor league arms. McNutt is there. Robert Whitenack has pushed his name into consideration if he keeps it up. Chris Rusin is a back of the rotation type lefty starter. And then you even have the very unlikely, but still possible scenario in which our 1st round pick this year (assuming it is a collegiate starter) signs quickly, makes his professional debut this fall, and does so well that he is invited to ST in 2012 and is fighting for a spot.
We have plenty of internal options to consider in the rotation, without shelling out the bucks it would take to bring in Wilson. Not to mention that we don’t even have the opening for him.
by RynoRooter on May 5, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Plus... there's Casey Coleman
Who will see enough innings this year, to make a solid evaluation on. If he progresses, he’ll certainly be in the mix.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
I think if McNutt needs another year
you maybe make a move for Wilson. 3-4 years though tops. Itd give McNutt another year, and then he takes Demps spot the next season. Jay Jackson could be interesting but i think he turns into a bullpen guy. And to me Coleman has been a huge disappointment this season
Openings get made for talent.
I like Coleman and Jackson too, but neither (particularly Coleman) inspires the kind of faith to pencil them in for next year.
These young arms are as much trade bait as they are future rotation staples in Chicago…hell there’s probably a better chance that they’re trade bait.
Jackson has a lot of potential...
He fell off a bit at the end of last year after the terrible attempt at a bullpen stint, and was injured to start the year this year, but he’s a legit talent. Not ToR stuff, but definitely low end #2, high end #3 ceiling.
Not sure Jackson's ceiling is that high.
I’m thinking more of a low end 3/quality 4 guy tbh. I don’t think he’s got enough all around stuff to be 2/3 good….not right now anyways…if his fastball gets better and one of his secondary pitches steps up then sure.
It’d be nice to hear that he’s got better stuff than I’m giving him credit for, but I don’t think he’s got it.
No one is asking that we break the bank on CJ Wilson
and certainly if someone did the reasoning wouldn’t be “because it’s a weak FA market.” He’s legitimately a very good pitcher.
You can't trade the 2011 pick for a year after he's chosen.
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Good point.
I don’t even know if we could gut the farm enough to get Felix. To be fair, I did say “Dream World.”
My dream offseason:
Trade for J. Upton…probably use quantity over quality, though we wouldn’t be giving them trash anyway.
Sign Pujols/Fielder
Sign Wilson
Rotation:
Zambrano
Wilson
Garza
Dempster
Wells – Assume Cashner/Jackson went in Upton trade Iguess…though to be my true dream it’d be a good SP version of Cashner.
C – Soto
1B – Pujols/Fielder
2B – I haven’t thought that far yet. Since I’m dreaming, I’ll say LeMahieu with a perfected game.
SS – I wonder.
3B – Smith – Can’t dream them all to be major studs.
LF – Black Hole that can hit HRs
CF – B. Jackson
RF – J. Upton
I wonder...
if a solid stretch of pitching the next 2 months for Z would land us a decent package for him at the deadline. It might be prudent to do what we can to restock our system this year a bit.
Z has a no-trade and 10/5 rights
and if he is solid I think we would want him to stay for the next few years
I believe he has been...
open to a trade in the past. But yes, he would have to agree to it.
I’m willing to let Z and the last 40 million dollars of his contract go. At this point in the contract, it’s unlikely that it will be justified, given his inconsistencies.
No real reason to trade him...
The Cubs just wouldn’t get a return that is equivalent to his talent because of the contract. Throw in 10/5 status and he’s pretty much a lock to be here, Plus, Zambrano is really the only stud to come out of the farm system that used to be so hyped in the early 2000’s, and he wasn’t even one of the more hyped guys. I’m sure there’s some kind of sentimental value there too, even if it could go away if they were bowled over.
Why would we need Wilson?
When we’ve been “stretching out” James Russell.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
LOL.
Tell the truth: are you one of the four who voted for Russell in the current sidebar poll?
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Why would I lie?
Of course I did. You really think I’d sit here and vote for those JAGs? I’d rather watch grass grow, paint dry, and the regression of a smoker’s lungs than sit and force myself to watch this team get battered around with those overaged, undertalented, over injured (except for ABD, praise be his name) finished nobodies.
At least I could pretend Russell has upside to speak of in the future. I think I’d literally vomit if I had to see the exact same pitching lines…and pretending they’d be better is fine if fantasy is how you deal with reality….come from guys with nothing to do with anything moving forward.
Here’s hoping Russell gets start #5, if the bullpen can take it. There’s a guy who’s thrown 18 whole innings in that unit, so it’s up for debate whether they can handle.
You really do need the last word, don't you?
Doug Davis or Ramon Ortiz will make the start on May 14. Russell has returned to the role he’s suited for: lefthanded specialist.
Also, watch your attitude.
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I was just answering your question.
Shouldn’t have taunted me in the first place…This thread has nothing whatsoever to do with Russell.
Anyway, it’s going to be Davis on May 14. Know why it’s going to be Davis? Because even the Cubs are smart enough to know that you don’t let crap like Diamond, ABD, or Ortiz throw innings unless you absolutely, desperately need it. The last time Ortiz got significant major league work was for the Nationals in 2006. The last time Ortiz put up an ERA under 5 in the big leagues was 2004. He’ll be 38 in a couple of weeks. Not starting guys like Ortiz, Diamond, and ABD was at least part of the reason Russell got his starts. If the Cubs, and not their annoyingly whiny fans, think Russell is a LOOGY then he’ll be that. My guess is they’ll try to figure out ways to evaluate him in more roles than that.
You really don't understand, do you.
James Russell cannot get RH hitters out. He never could, which is why he put up 5+ ERA’s in the minor leagues as a starter. He had a role as a lefty specialist.
Giving him starts has ruined the bullpen four times now, and cost the Cubs four games. Doing it again would cost them another game.
They could have found someone who could have given them six innings, and saved the pen, even if they lost the game. The cost of the overworked bullpen was likely MORE losses.
You’ve been incorrect all along. However, I’m sure you’ll post again, because you can’t stand it if someone else has the last word.
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The bullpen is fine, and you don't understand me.
It’s not like Thomas Diamond or Ramon Ortiz or Austin Blahblahblah was going to “save” the bullpen that doesn’t even need saving. Thomas Diamond isn’t even going 5 IP per start, Bibens-Dirkx is a nobody, and Ramon Ortiz was last relevant 10 years ago.
In slow mo…why Russell got April starts this year: ]
1. The Cubs have been talking about stretching Russell since last year.. I read that in the offseason on this very site.
2. They have many young relievers, and bullpen pitching might be this team’s biggest strength. Pretty much everyone is young (under 30), most throw hard, and most were once starters.
3. OTOH, they lost the following starting pitchers for a period of time in April:
Randy Wells – #4 starter
Andrew Cashner – #5 starter
Casey Coleman – Replaces Wells.
Jay Jackson – Injured.
Braden Looper – Injured.
Todd Wellemeyer – Injured.
Doug Davis – Injured? Something.
Russell, at best, was the 11th starter on the organizational depth chart entering the season. It just so happens that pitchers 4-10 have a total of 1 healthy pitcher in there. There is way more incentive to find out about what Russell could do as a starter than there was to find out what any of the terrible trio you’d like to see.
It didn’t work out. They’re prepared to move on, and Russell will continue to have a future with the club. Those 3 will hope to one day get innings here, maybe.
What I say makes sense, and it’s not so hard to see that it’s true. What you’ve been doing is complaining and throwing facts to the wind. You keep saying the bullpen has been overworked, but there’s nothing that shows that. You keep saying that they could have had someone (ANYONE!) who could come in and throw 6 innings (it’s that easy!), yet no one you offer really has been doing that (except Ortiz, who’s almost 40 and sucks) let alone be good. You’ve been speaking this whole time as if Russell was the 1st option for the rotation…he wasn’t. You speak as if there’s many CLEARLY better candidates for the rotation right now, but there have not been.
Why would you even bring this up again if you didn’t want to talk about it? I’m not disagreeing to disagree with you, I’m disagreeing with you because you’re wrong on so many levels. Apologies for daring to get the last word in.
by SenorGato on May 5, 2011 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm done discussing this with you.
You have a complete lack of understanding of the situation.
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Good.
And no, I don’t. You do, and it’s kind of obvious.
Accepted this copout a couple days ago...
Lets try to hold this one up this time. I don’t want to have to remind you yet again of why Russell got his starts.
Stop, now.
Or do you have to get the last word, yet again?
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The list of pitchers is a good point.
And identifies why there are no good options. There are a couple of quibbles with your list, however.
You can’t count Davis, as we signed after the season started. So he surely wasn’t ahead of anyone in the Cub organization on the SP depth chart during the offseason.
Looper and Wellemeyer were both veteran reclamation projects. It is surely possible they were being “counted on” in the spots you listed. However, it is also possible the Cubs viewed Russell as being ahead of them.
One of the truly head-scratching things about Spring Training was that Russell never got one start… not even with all the split squad games. So while they did SAY, after trading Gorz and leaving themselves with not a single viable LH SP candidate, they could try Russell as a SP (which most everyone knew was a terrible idea)… they certainly didn’t act on that speech.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Kinda shows what they think about the
Holy trio that a guy who didn’t get a st start got the start, no?
Those Guys are garbage and nothing would change…except morale bc even the players have no use seeing retreads and garbage get significant time.
by SenorGato on May 7, 2011 2:06 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
So you think
the morale of the Cubs would be worse if one of the “retreads” were to start than Russell?
You can’t possibly think his teammates have any confidence in Russell starting at this point.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Pretty sure it's easier to root for a 24 year old
who did surprisingly well last year and who’s handled this situation very well for the most part, than a bunch of retreads the players will never, ever see again after the season.
They may not have confidence they’ll win, but they know he’s got balls and a future. It’s infinitely easier to play for than watching your team throw in the towel and start calling up absolute garbage like Diamond and Ortiz.
LOOGY is really the only role he'll be able to handle.
But hey, hears to James Russell being the best left-handed specialist in baseball in 2014.
I'd take an ERA of around 5 from Ortiz,
its better than an ERA around 10 from Russell. And, I have a feeling Ortiz can at least give us 5 innings.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Doug Davis is fine.
It’s the terrible pitchers you were pushing before that had me so irked. I don’t want to see Thomas Diamond pitch. He won’t be here next year and he stinks. I don’t want to see Ramon Ortiz. He had his time 10 years ago. I don’t want to see some 26 year old non-prospect who hopes to rise up to post-injuries Diamond’s level. Who would wish that on their team?
You want to see a LOOGY
who has demonstrated his inability to go 4 innings, get right handed hitters out, or keep the ball in the park. He has a 10+ ERA in his starts and isn’t getting any better. I give him one thing though, he definitely seems to be able to forget his mistakes.
God forbid we call up someone past their prime who’s able to go 5 innings and help keep some guys arms from falling off. I don’t understand why this is difficult for you.
Russell Pitches – 10ERA > Under 4 IP > Tired bullpen in future games
Ortiz pitches – Bad ERA (assuming) > 5 IP+ > Help save bullpen for future games.
Exactly.
We’ve been over and over this argument dozens of times, and you are correct. I do not see why he doesn’t get it, either.
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Are you serious?
Is this some kind of joke you’re playing on me?
Holy...
Why are you giving these guys that they’ll make it 5? Who’s arm is falling off?
D’you guys have any idea how lame hypotheticals are in this situation? The Cubs don’t want those guys starting games because those guys suck, and would NOT change the result.
God forbid we call up a crappy, past his prime pitcher is right. Those guys will contribute nothing today and even less tomorrow. This is a year to find out what the kids can do. Screw those 3.
D’you not see how quickly my opinion changes when the other starting pitching options starts getting better? Doug Davis? Doug Davis is a good pitcher who’s done good work in recent years in the majors and this very division. Jay Jackson? Jay Jackson is a young kid with a good arm who might be a rotation fixture here or somewhere else. Thomas f’ing Diamond? Ramon Ortiz? ABD? Gaaaaaarbage.
Russell is garbage too.
He’s incapable of keeping us in games which is all he’s being asked to do. He’s failed at his job 4 times. I get that he’s not an ideal option, but its just common sense at this point to move on, and try someone else. I agree that Diamond is terrible, but he’s made better starts in the majors than Russell has, and likely ever will. Ortiz has been irrelevant since circa 2006, yet he’s been pitching well enough at Iowa to garner a call-up. ABD, well, he’s just terrible and isn’t even being considered.
Davis, he could be OK. But, like Russell, he’s a soft-tossing lefty, even softer actually, his fastball sits in the mid-80s, and he’s a fly-ball pitcher. To be honest, he seems like a worse option than Ortiz, mainly because like Russell, I don’t think he’ll be able to keep the ball in the park. And, just because Davis has killed the Cubs in the past, doesn’t mean he’ll fare well as a Cub.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
In fact, Diamond gave us this start last season:
Aug. 3 vs MIL. 6IP, 7H, 3R/ER, OHR allowed!, 3BB, 10K. Now did he massively overachieve with the 10K, YES. But he gave us 6 innings and threw 122 pitches. Throw out the K’s and this is exactly the kind of start, give or take 2 runs, we need from someone in Russell’s spot. And from what we’ve seen thus far, Russell can’t do it.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Dude...that's one start.
He completely bombed after that.
You cannot assume he’s just going to be able to do that against big league clubs. Not only did he bomb after that, which was his big league debut, but he’s bombed in AAA this year too.
Diamond would be ridiculously lucky to go 6 innings against a major league lineup. He hasn’t even averaged that against AAA competition this year…
Real options are being prepped right now. Davis is a real option. Jay Jackson is a real option. Not Thomas Diamond or the other AAA filler JAGs.
It is one start, but its evidence that Diamond is at least capable.
Russell can’t even give us that. Russell has yet to even go FIVE innings in a major league game and can’t deliver against RH pitchers.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
No, it's one start. It demonstrates that Diamond had a good game.
Anyone can have a good game on the random.
Well, except James Russell.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Also, this was meant to be an example of what a decent or good spot start would look like.
Furthermore, Diamond despite giving the Cubs one quality start, was only given 2 more opportunities to start. Russell on the other hand has been given 4 opportunities despite showing no ability whatsoever to be a major league caliber starter (let alone reliever). And its not like the Cubs had a lot of great options to start for them at the end of last season, and they certainly didn’t give any of those starts to Russell, which would imply that they were NOT considering making him a part of the rotation going forward.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
You realize that...
Diamond threw more innings than those 6 last year right? And that they were terriblet? And that the Cubs have started Russell more because he’s not RH, 27 year old, coming off shoulder and elbow injuries that sapped his stuff ending any chance of him ever being a l? And that if it came to starting Diamond again the Cubs are probably in the unwatchable territory ? And that Russell didn’t get starts last year because no smart franchise is going to ask a 23 year old reliever to become a start mid-season, right? And that Diamond probably won’t even be on the AAA team next year, let alone the big league club next year, right?
Nothing about the end result of those 4 games would change because ABD, Thomas Diamond, or Ortiz pitching. Those guys are hoping to be viable major league pitchers, let alone long term relievers and starters. The Cubs are being smart and making 2011 an evaluation year, and giving Russell those losses/starts has way more long term value (and really, value period) than starting those guys. Assuming any of them would be lastiing 5-6 innings and saving a bullpen that doesn’t even need saving doesn’t make it a true statement either.
This about sums up your stance on Russell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Rdf0n_Lsg
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
by tripdenten on May 7, 2011 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Good options are going to be available by Memorial day anyway...
so this is just beating the absolute crap out of a dead horse.
Russell may be garbage too but:
1. They didn’t know that before he got his 4 starts.
2. He performed well enough last year to earn those starts over the likes of Thomas Diamond and the gang of JAGs.
3. Doug Davis has outperformed Ramon Ortiz in the big leagues, and even gave 200 innings as recently as 2009.
BTW:
A 37 year old sporting a 5 ERA in AAA after bombing in the majors for the better part of a decade has not earned himself a start in the big leagues by throwing a couple good starts. It’d take a pathetically desperate franchise to give that guy big league starts. Assuming and insisting he’d do better than the kid they actually want to see pitch doesn’t actually mean he’d do better.
Literally anyone else on the roster could do as good as Russell has.
An ERA over 10 and giving up 3 homeruns per appearance is nothing to be proud of. The fact that he is even in the majors is a testament to how poorly this team evaluates talent.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
That's not entirely true
There’s value in a lefty specialist. Except you don’t realize that value when you make him a starter.
#2 is the biggest load of crap I've ever seen written.
Doug Davis is an option, but he’s not as far along in terms of being ready as Ortiz is. I’m not saying the Cubs need to make Ortiz part of their rotation going forward, they definitely don’t. But what they can do is give him 1 or 2 spot starts hope for something along the lines of 6 IP, 4ER, and send him back down when Wells or Cashner is ready, or do the same thing with Doug Davis.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Hoping Ramon Ortiz can give you
a quality start at this point in his baseball career is like hoping for sensibility in a mob.
Russell isn't garbage.
But, as it relates to your first point here… the Cubs should have known that Russell has ALWAYS struggled to get RH batters out. That has been the case through his minor league career and his brief major league career.
You keep chirping that everyone who opposes your view on this situation just “ignores facts”. However, I’m not sure you’ve ever once directly addressed or acknowledged the fact that Russell struggles mightily to retire RH batters, which is a very difficult flaw to overcome as a starter.
And that is why even though Russell is a better pitcher and likely has more of a future with the Cubs (as a LOOGY or, hopefully, as a “regular” middle reliever) than the players you have designated JAGs… those JAGs are all better options as starters. NONE of them give the Cubs a great chance to win… but it basically is not possible that they give the Cubs a worse chance to win.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
None of those guys were better
Options as starters, and we’d likely see them get worse as they got more starts. At least Russell was getting better in his starts… If those guys actually imProved our chances of winning in any significant way they would have gotten the starts. Theyre useless….or at least best used as minor league filler.
Dyou think any of those guys actually changes the result of the game? The BEST performer in the group is a 38 year old putting up a 5 era in aaa…it’d pathetic and they have zero right or reason to major league innings.
by SenorGato on May 7, 2011 1:47 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
So again
you ignore the whole RH thing (par for the course, at this point).
Russell is really only “getting better” in that starts 2-4 weren’t as atrocious as the first. He basically leveled out to giving up 4 or 5 runs over 4 innings… stretching the last start all the way to 4.2.
Your assumption that anyone else would do worse is based on… your own opinion. Clearly the Cubs agree with you, but that isn’t exactly convicting evidence for making it the right decision.
Your contention that only certain players have a “right or reason to major league innings” is based on… your own opinion.
And BTW… Ortiz has an ERA under 3.50. He’s had one “bad” start… where he gave up a run per inning over three (which we can call “the Russell”). His other four starts have all been quality starts.
Could someone have changed the result of one of those games? Sure.
Russell’s first start was doomed… but surely nobody could’ve had a worse outing than he had. The Cubs probably don’t win anyway, but the game was effectively over by the second inning. Get a different start and you get a different result.
In starts two, three, and four… Russell gave up all the runs. Two of the games were one-run losses. So surely a different pitcher could have impacted the outcome.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on May 7, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nobody is "leveled out" after 4 starts.
And I don’t care about the RH batter thing because it does not override the fact that the options available stunk.
You’re not going to change my mind, and I still think you simply don’t get the April SP position the organization was in. No one is desperate enough to start any of the Big Three, and if there’s anyone who is I’m very glad they don’t work for the Cubs.
They’d still lose. Those guys suck.
Of course you don't care about the RH batter thing.
It is only the most important part of the debate… and obliterates your entire defense of Russell. It is very literally THE definitive point.
I’ve acknowledged the “there are/were no good options” pickle the organization was/is in literally every step along the way. Your stance that I “just don’t get” it is absolutely baseless.
And while I would generally agree that four starts is inconclusive… you used Diamond’s three starts last year to declare that he is “garbage”… so surely four starts is enough to declare the same about Russell as a SP.
Anyone who is/was insane enough to think starting Russell was a good idea shouldn’t work for the Cubs.
There. Fixed it for you.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on May 8, 2011 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's the only important part of the debate because it's the only thing you have to cling to.
No one cares, and you’ll probably NEVER see Thomas Diamond or Ramon Ortiz ever again. I will laugh and be glad for it.
BTW: No, I include Diamond's nearly 9 ERA and <5 IP/start in AAA this year too
when I talk about his suckage.
And then I throw in that he’s 3 years older than Russell, been through two more surgeries than Russell, and generally has much less offer than Russell.
You’d think with the sheer number of posts this debate has had you’d at least start understanding that at this point. This debate is complete waste of my ample time because it’s very clear that I’m debating with people who just want something new to whine about, want to throw out the facts of the situation, and root for garbage pitchers.
I "understand" all the reasons
you think Russell is better.
On the other hand, when a pitcher can’t retire RH batters, they are irrelevant.
That’s not “clinging”… that’s understanding how baseball works.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Lol.
1. No. Left handers who can strike out major league hitters, LH or RH, are usually not going to fall into the category of “irrelevant.” OTOH, 38 year old RHs who haven’t been good in 7-8-9 years and/or 27 year old RHs with 9 ERAs in AAA with middling stuff and a couple surgeries under the belt easily…and I mean f’n eeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaasily…fall under the category of irrelevant. That’s why you won’t see them here next year, and you probably won’t see them this year.
2. So, since you’re wrong on that first hack point, you’re even more incorrect in assuming you know how baseball works. Hell, you already did that when you saw the SP depth, recognized that injuries probably played a part in Russell’s starts, and STILL tried to find excuses to put crap like Diamond or Ortiz on the field.
It’s 4 losses. The franchise will recover. Your Holy Trio would not change those results. They barely can get by in AAA. They suck.
/Fin..or it should be but I’ll probably get stuck reading another post soon enough.
Um... no.
Left handers who can strike out major league hitters, LH or RH, are usually not going to fall into the category of "irrelevant."
Russell has faced 66 RH batters this season. He has struck out FIVE of them. 29 of them have reached base via hit (23), BB (4), IBB (1), and HBP (1).
Pitchers who cannot get out RH batters can’t be SP. This isn’t hard to understand.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on May 8, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Um he's a 24 year old lefty
who in his first shot at the majors threw up 7.7 K/9.
This year, in a completely different role, he’s putting up average K numbers as a start (6 K/9)…in his first shot as a major league starter…from the left side on top of that.
Your heavy reliance on splits shows how weak your argument is. The fact is, the argument you SHOULD be making is that these guys can CLEARLY (not MAYBE, no one cares about MAYBE when they’re older and not as talented) outpitch Russel and therefore deserved those starts. You can’t make that argument, and therefore this debate is stupid. Yet it still gets airtime from me…I must be mad. Either way, pitchers who can’t get anyone out…at the AAA level at that…shouldn’t get starts at the major level either. Neither should pitchers on their last legs on a team trying to evaluate it’s youth. Neither should lesser prospects who are older with more history of injury.
Keep clinging to your splits. I’ll enjoy the Cubs not throwing out crap. Agree to disagree, because your argument is going nowhere and you can’t even wrap your head around what I’m saying (hence “understand” instead of understand in your last post).
Ugh...fell for the troll trap again.
Please do us both a favor and don’t reply to this. You’re not going to get anywhere…I’m not going to get anywhere…this debate is going nowhere…you probably won’t have your dreams realized and see an Ortiz or Diamond on the 14th (praise Jah)…and the only real point you can make is that Russell can’t get RHs out…which is true in his <200 ML ABs against RHBs…which still doesn’t make up for the sad truth than when Wells/Cashner/Looper/Jackson/welly/Davis couldn’t pitch in April HE was the next SP on the depth chart…because your dream pitchers are not good.
You really are in "polish that turd" mode, aren't you??
Clinging to one stat Russell has done sort of average at to try to defend the indefensible??
For one… JR struck out 8 batters in 14.1 IP as a starter. That’s 5.14 K/9, not 6.
And when you face three times as many RH batters as LH batters… uh… splits matter.
The fact is, the argument you SHOULD be making is that these guys can CLEARLY (not MAYBE, no one cares about MAYBE when they’re older and not as talented) outpitch Russel and therefore deserved those starts.
Well, that is the ultimate strawman burden of proof. JR has given up 16 ER in 14.1 IP. He’s had four starts. None of them were good. When you are getting a performance like that, it is clear that someone (anyone) else needs to be getting those starts.
Of course this is going nowhere. You’ve proven time and again to be beyond reason.
There’s only one troll here… and I’m pretty sure you don’t know who it is.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on May 8, 2011 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's you. I do know who it is.
Just to extend this wonderful conversation…So you DON’T have to prove that these guys are CLEARLY better SP options?
Hoo wee do I enjoy every game JAGs like Ortiz and Diamond aren’t on this team. I do enjoy your tireless, tiresome, limp arguments as to why we should be subjected to that crap. The best part is that they fall on deaf ears.
Well, you had a 50-50 chance to get it right. No surprise you got it wrong.
I hope you’ve enjoyed the James Russell experience while real fans were cringing.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on May 8, 2011 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
*"Real fans" were whining.
Fixed.
Sad that real fans couldn’t even whine for real talent…we haven’t won in so long that this fanbase would panic after 4 starts from a kid enough to pine for the dregs of our minor league system.
Enjoy that, true fan. I’ll enjoy this team’s influx of young talent this year as they show up and play.
Why are you bashing him for showing splits?
Just because he’s a 25 year old lefty with “a future” doesn’t mean he should be forced into a starting role. HE HAS NO FUTURE AS A STARTER. It’s been painfully obvious for quite a while, and I’m not sure why you can’t wrap your head around that. But I’m sure you’ll just twist this into bitching about ABD or Diamond, because that’s your only comeback when someone mentions that Russell has no business starting.
by Dcr18 on May 8, 2011 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Oh hi looks it you jumping in again.
How’s it going? Do I get somebody to tag in to repeat the same thing over and over again to deaf ears?
So…splits are a fine argument and a clear deciding factor…but the fact that 6-7 starters went down and the Cubs felt so low on The Holy Trio that they passed on them (and their ridiculously bad AAA performance except for the 38 year old) for a reliever who kinda sorta impressed last year. Yet you people still pine for them….does this team even deserve to win anything?
I like how I’m just “bitching”: about ABD and DIamond…as if they’re names I kinda just pulled out of the hat from the billion OTHER SP options available in April…this is stupid.
So who’s going to be the one I’m speaking to all day about this…you or the other one? How many times will you guys rec each other? Who will proclaim themselves more correct? WILL your cries be heard by the Cubs? Will the Cubs fans be treated to a start from 9 ERA Thomas Diamond or the Legendary Winner of a WS Game in 2002, Ramon Ortiz? How many runs will they win by on that magical evening? All and more to be found out later today, May 9th, on BleedCubbieBlue!
BTW: Your guys have NO FUTURE ANYWHERE. Bitch about Russell all you want, it’s not going to change the fact that he’s >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your Holy Trio.
The bullpen absolutely has been a strength.
And likely is the strongest part of the Cubs’ roster.
For me, the issue isn’t the bullpen now… it is the cumulative effect of lots of innings and appearances during the ‘dog days’.
The Cubs rank dead last in MLB in IP by SP.
This is a problem… and it is surely bigger than the #5 starter spot. All the Cub starters need to go deeper into games. The angst over the #5 spot is that there is literally zero chance Russell could go 6… and it is unlikely he could even go 5.
While it is also unlikely that the “JAGs” could go 6… the chance that any of them would have thrown more than 14.1 IP over the course of four starts is… reasonably high.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on May 7, 2011 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Few things
1. The cubs are getting less innings from their starters partially bc 2/5 of the rotatiOn is down. Then 4 backups went down…or 5. This chimes with dempsters ineffectiveness has hurt that stat based on a month.
2. We have one of the youngest hullpens I’m the league and literally no reliever has shown any sign of fatigue.
3. The system is loaded with relief arms…carpenter…the three Russell oppressed starters…stevens…gaub…possibly russell…dolis….Cabrera….the bullpen will be fine…it was 4 starts in April for heavens sake it’s not as if this has been going on for a half season…it’s a shallow, weak argument at best….and it shows a clear lack of understanding of the organization personally.
by SenorGato on May 7, 2011 1:57 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
...
1. No doubt.
2. Being young in the pen is no reason to overwork the pen. We are basically 20% of the way through the season. Some of the pen guys are on pace for the following:
Mateo 80 games, 60 IP
Marmol & Marshall 75 games, 70 IP
Shark 60 games, 90 IP
Grabow 75 games, 65 IP
Most of those are fairly large totals. If the Cubs’ SP can start going deeper into games (like Coleman today), those numbers will fall, allowing the pen to stay strong.
3. Nobody is really worried if Stevens/Berg/random last guy in the pen is overworked. And your “it was four starts” comment clearly suggests you missed this:
This is a problem… and it is surely bigger than the #5 starter spot.
As I was clearly not attributing the bullpen’s workload solely to the James Russell Experiment.
Noting that the Cubs’ pen has thrown more innings than any other is hardly a “shallow, weak argument”. That phrase actually describes your dismissal of the extended use of the bullpen because “they are young”.
.and it shows a clear lack of understanding of the organization personally.
Is there anything in my post above that necessitated this pot shot? I’m well aware that the Cubs have interchangeable parts for the last spot or two in the pen. Knowing that Russell should be one of those parts instead of starting games hardly shows a lack of understanding.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on May 7, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
OK.
2. How many of those guys will actually throw that many innings? MAYBE Marmol and Marshall. At one point this season Castro was “on pace” to hit .400. It’s April stats and early season numbers are always a little extreme. Garza’s on pace for 230 IP/252 hits/300+ K’s. It’s not going to happen.
3. The Cubs bullpen has plenty of arms to come up and help out. You went around that very well. You also have to figure that the rotation isn’t going to finish last in IP from their starters. There’s 3 guys who can work 200 pretty easily, and Wells can throw 180+.
It wasn’t a potshot, and using the word “knowing” doesn’t make what you believe true. Still alot/most of what you say shows a lack of understanding about what they’re doing this year (getting alot of young players on the field as contracts die), the SP situation in April, and a taste for terrible, old, retread type pitchers.
...
I “went around” the ‘plenty of arms’ thing because it is inconsequential. Nobody cares if Stevens/Gaub/Mateo need to be replaced because they aren’t pitching in games that are still in the balance. The problem with starting a pitcher who is not capable of pitching deep into a game is the impact on the bullpen for not just that day, but subsequent days.
It impacts the available arm and leaves Quade in a situation where Wood/Marshall/Marmol end up picking up innings they shouldn’t have to throw.
The Cubs have had to lean on their bullpen more than any other team so far, because the SPs are rarely going deep into the game. If that pattern continues, it leads to overuse and the bullpen wearing down over the course of the season.
All the starters need to work deeper in the game. But starting a pitcher who is not capable of going deep into a game is an even worse decision when your other starters aren’t holding up their end of the deal.
BTW… as for rotation innings… Wells won’t make 180+ missing a month and a half of the season. Dempster is averaging well under six innings per start, so he’s not making 200 without really stepping up. That all adds up to a lot of bullpen innings.
and using the word "knowing" doesn’t make what you believe true.
This is the sad/hilarious/ironic part of your posting. This statement is the complete embodiment of your stance on Russell vs. other options (as evidenced by all the “they are garbage/retreads” declarations… it must be true because you say so, right?).
the SP situation in April
I’m certainly well aware of that… as I’ve noted there are no “good” options every step along the way. Heck, I even gave you credit for posting the SP depth chart. But this…
Still alot/most of what you say shows a lack of understanding about what they’re doing this year (getting alot of young players on the field as contracts die),
just doesn’t make any sense… and is the ultimate strawman (you are, in essence, saying I want to keep the young players down… and that has absolutely nothing to do with the Russell vs. other options debate, as I will expand on below). It also embodies why some/many of us had issues with some of the offseason moves (if this year was really about “seeing what you have” and “letting contracts die”, then you don’t sign Pena for $10M… you just pocket the money and start Colvin at 1B and/or platoon with other pieces).
I was/am absolutely 1000% on board with the idea of the Cubs “rebuilding” a bit this year by limiting salary and letting the kids play. And the Cubs are doing an okay job of that (aside from Colvin).
But that doesn’t mean you roll the dice in April when there’s still a (very long) chance to contend. There is absolutely positively nothing in Russell’s profile that suggests he could be an effective SP in the major leagues.
I know you want to simply ignore that he can’t get righties out… but you simply cannot be an effective SP without being able to retire righties. It just isn’t possible.
I hope they won’t be… but if the Cubs are 10 games out in August/September and wanted to roll the dice on giving Russell a shot to start, fine. You’re taking a nothing harmed, low-reward “risk”.
But to start a pitcher who has never consistently gotten out RH batters at any level of professional baseball in games in April when you say you’re trying to contend is borderline irresponsible.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
by fsuapollo on May 8, 2011 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Anyone who read that in this ridiculously pointless debate needs to find a hobby.
And starting ANY of the Great 3 would devastate the league far too early. The Cubs were just being kind and letting teams think they have a shot. Sure, Russell probably singlehandedly took us out of WS contention with 4 whole losses, but wait until one of the Forgotten/Great 3 gets called up. They’ll go 6 innings, save the bullpen, change results…It’ll be so different bro you don’t even know. This is true because I say so.
Irresponsible my nuts. I’d rather be irresponsible and start a young pitcher that they planned to make a starter anyway than an f’n loser trying to find gold in guys like Thomas Diamond and Ramon Ortiz. When you get your loser team…you do that. I’m happy my loser team is at least losing with players who have a future and some upside. As if those losers would change the situation at all in anyway beyond making me more embarrassed to be a Cubs fan.
Ummm
Anyone who read that in this ridiculously pointless debate needs to find a hobby.
Since you replied…… uh… let’s find you a hobby.
Your first paragraph is your standard nonsense which completely misrepresents the debate.
They’ll go 6 innings, save the bullpen, change results…It’ll be so different bro you don’t even know. This is true because I say so.
I never said that. But James Russell cannot retire RH batters, so we are nearly certain he can’t do this.
I’d rather be irresponsible and start a young pitcher that they planned to make a starter anyway
It was such a ‘plan’ that he couldn’t get a single ST start? Hmm.
As if those losers would change the situation at all in anyway beyond making me more embarrassed to be a Cubs fan.
Given that it would be extremely difficult to pitch worse than Russell has, your ‘confidence’ that the other guys would be more embarrassing is misplaced.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
We're also certain that Ortiz, Diamond, and Bibens-Dirkx sucks.
Why you can’t comprehend is beyond me. No one cares that Russell can’t get RH out because 1. it’s not set in stone that that’ll last forever and 2. he’s capable of getting SOMEONE out…unlike your little gang of suck.
Your last paragraph is a joke btw…You get on Russell on 4 starts/17 innings worth of ERA…Thomas Diamond spots an ERA near 9 in AAA and somehow you think this projects better…after Diamond put up an ERA almost 2 runs higher than Russell last year.
Why am I still doing this? That’s a good question. I say f it. You’re clearly not going to get it, and you clearly enjoy watching garbage play. Enjoy typing up that next pointless essay that I’ll probably respond to unnecessarily as you journey to be correct. Also, keep dreaming on seeing those scrubs this year.
Sigh.
The essays are indeed tiring. It takes more work to put together a thoughtful, fact-based argument rather than “those other guys suck… and you enjoy watching suck.”
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Yep. That's my argument in a nutshell.
As usual, you sir, have me nailed.
As someone not even in this argument..
That is, in essence, exactly what you’re doing.
You’re ignoring facts, pointing towards injuries, and claiming two other guys suck and one is old. Great, we know that. It doesn’t mean that Russell should continue to start when he has shown no ability to do so through his first four attempts.
At this point, JR is exactly what we thought he’d be. A decent LOOGY thrown into a situation that he couldn’t succeed in. At this point, you have absolutely no reason to not give Ortiz or Davis a start or two until Wells and or Cashner can come back.
Give the team a chance to win. You keep mocking that 4 games lost means nothing, but look at how many divisions are decided by far less games than that.
The other guys do suck.
This absolutely blows my mind to see a fanbase pine to see the absolute worst their team has to offer because of 4 games in April. If the Cubs had better, he wouldn’t have started. The Cubs are finding legit starting options now, and the chances of him starting are dropping. It’s that simple.
They’re not going to start Ortiz. It’s Davis or Jackson, like I’ve been saying. The Cubs have zero urge to insult the fanbase like that and throw out some 38 year old pitcher who was finished at least 5 years ago.
The Cubs are four games out of first place.
Win those four games and you’re talking about a very different early season.
I said I was done discussing with you, but I will attempt to explain this one more time. James Russell is a major league relief pitcher. He was put in a situation where he was doomed to fail, and further, by his inability to go more than four innings, it led to overworking the bullpen not only in the games he started, but the next games as well.
We know that the options from the minor leagues were not very good. All of them, however, could have given the Cubs six innings, thus saving the bullpen. Even if they sucked, the results of the games would have been the same: four losses. Except the bullpen would have been better rested, and James Russell would have been kept in the role he is suited for: situational lefty.
NOW I’m done.
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The assumption that those specific 4 games are why
we’re not in first is a joke. The idea that ANY of those 3 would change the result is laughable.
You keep saying this 6 innings stuff Al…ONE of those pitchers you keep suggesting is even averaging FIVE innings a start in the minors.
You also consistently…and I mean really consistently…fail to show who’s fatigued from this bullpen.
Your argument might actually be worse than “ZOMG have you seen his splits?” It’s based on conjecture, things you’ve made up in your head, and things you wish to be true..So please….please, please please…be finished arguing with me on this. You’ve made the same statements over and over, I quickly dismantle them (seriously…stop with the 6 innings crap…you made it up, it has little basis in fact, and your Three Heores can’t even back you and throw 6 innings in the minors), and you and the crew continue to repeat yourselves anyway (forcing me to repeat myself….over and over and over and over and over and over and over again).
PLEASE be finished. You’re not even bothering to prove a single word you say. The worst is that it doesn’t matter, because there’s only one person calling bs, and I don’t have the credibiltiy here to have what I say carry any weight (I don’t whine or overreact enough to things).
I've stayed out of this, but you're being a bit ignorant here
the 6 innings, is not “crap”. Take Russell’s first start. he was on what, a 45 pitch count? guarenteed 3 innings tops. next start, i believe was around 60-70. at least these guys that “suck” can throw 100 pitches in a ball game. Russell was guarenteeing we would not get out of the 5th. you say these others suck, well guess what? as a starter Russell really really sucks. So lets see, a guy who has a 45 pitch count, or a guy who is stretched to 100 pitch count. Who gives you the better opportunity to eat innings?
If it wasn't crap then why can only one of those three
Pitch 5 innings per start in aaa?
Answer: because they’re garbage and they’ll be lucky to see the major leagues again.
by SenorGato on May 9, 2011 5:53 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Also, the Yankees had
no such problem throwing out a soon to be 38 year old (turns 38 on May 24th) who was finished at least 5 years ago (last good season was 2005) in Bartolo Colon. Completely dismissing Ortiz in favor of Russell based completely on age is ridiculous.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
You do realize that
1. Bartolo Colon was an insanely better, ore talented pitcher than Ortiz for his whole career? Colon was once a legitimate major league ace who won a Cy Young. Ortiz’s career highlight is winning game 2 of the WS 10 years ago.
2. Colon’s “finished” season was the year he won the AL Cy Young.
3. Ortiz isn’t even averaging 6 IP per start in the minors.
4. The Yankees lineup is insanely better than ours and can cover a bad 5th starter if they have to trot one out there.
5. Colon wasn’t even bad in his last 100 or so IP in the majors…with the White Sox and Red Sox he put up a 4.09 ERA in hitters parks in the AL during ‘09 and ’10. Ortiz’s ERA hovers from 5-7.
6. Completely dismissing Ramon Ortiz as anything but filler and a desperation arm makes complete sense because that’s what he is. The guy’s a “we’ve thrown in the towel” type arm. MAYBE you guys get your dreams to come true and you see this real life WS game winning throw some September innings. Hopefully not.
I don't want to see Ortiz in September.
I wanted to see Ortiz used as filler in April, because that’s the reason you sign a guy like Ortiz in the first place, filler/emergency insurance. In my mind starting Russell once was an emergency circumstance, but everything beyond that was just foolish.
Citing Ortiz’s minor league IP is inaccurate, as a AAA club usually will not send guys out there for long starts. Part of the team’s purpose is to get people innings, so that includes relievers. Iowa has no need for Ortiz to go beyond 5 to 6 innings per start, so he doesn’t. He has put up a 3.45 ERA and has a solid K to BB ratio. Russell on the other hand can’t even average 4 innings per start and allows over a run per inning, so I suppose he was the better option.
The FACT that Russell did not get any starts last August or September or in ST this year, leads me, and most others to believe that he was never seriously considered to be a starter for this team then or NOW and therefore should not have even been given the opportunity to do so this year.
If you think that trotting Russell out there for each of those 4 starts wasn’t “throwing in the towel,” then you’re kidding yourself.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
by tripdenten on May 9, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Does this mean you're back to disagreeing to disagree?
Because I’m starting to come to the idea to just drop it. He’s just another in a long line of scapegoats I’ve seen here anyway, and there’ll probably be someone new next week. Hell, you might even get your wish this week and it could be Ortiz/Diamond/ABD!
And yet they wouldn't use him as filler...
Kinda shows what that says about him.
Also, Russell wouldn’t have gotten any starts in August or September last year because they were using him as a reliever then. It was announced early last offseason that they’d be converting him to starter.
Again, don’t let facts get in the way of you guys rec’ing each other and proclaiming your correctness.
BTW: Starting a 24 year old to see what he can do after the depth chart goes to crap is not as much “throwing in the towel” as it is trotting a 38 year old who lasted posted an ERA under 5 eight years ago.
Who’s getting tagged in next?
Whoa that last one is bad...
Trotting a 24 year who will contribute to the future, rotation or bullpen, is nowhere near as much a “throw in the towel” moment as trotting out some 38 year old who lasted posted an ERA under 5 8 years ago.
This is true no matter how you pretend he’d lock up 6 innings and a victory.
And holy crap...
WHY IN THE HELL would the AAA club being trying to save Ortiz’s arm? Even if you want to pretend it’s for the sake of getting other arms innings, doesn’t that show you how low the organization values him? Also, why would they want to condition this 6 inning master to throw less than 6 innings when they need it? They’re going to call up a 38 year old to fill up innings when they’ve been LIMITING HIS INNINGS?
WHO is sitting there going “man, that guy’s making a great argument” when reading this stuff? I mean 3 people sat there and said “wow, this post stands out for it’s logic, lets makes this green!”
I think I’m going to have to man up and drop out of this conversation. It hurts my brain seeing such hindsight and hole heavy logic being treated as entirely correct. You’re never going to convince me that Ortiz or Diamond (or ABD, who’s disappeared so quickly!) would have helped this team win those 4 games that they lost, and what I’m saying is too heavy for you to wrap your mind around…things like depth charts and facts shouldn’t matter in times like this, I know, I know….you’re angry, and must be appeased! We lost 4 games dammit! In such a promising season at that!
Yuch.
You presented ZERO facts and are beyond annoying.
Ladies and Gentleman, I give you Jeff Russell!
NO STARTERS at AAA anywhere go, on average, over 6 IP, it just doesn’t happen. The point of the minors is to get everyone innings!!! But you wouldn’t know that, because you think the point of baseball is to start guys on 60 pitch pitch counts and that just because he’s 24, has an ERA over 10, and has never once shown the ability to start at any level of pro ball, he should start, because you say so!
The Cubs threw in the towel each time he started, even the lowly Padres teed off on Russell in Wrigley on a 30 degree night, when it should have been impossible to score runs.
I’m done. But I’m sure you’ll reply with some nonsense about ABD, who’ve I’ve never mentioned, and is actually worse than Russell IMO.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
And for the record,
the Cubs never converted Russell to a starter this offseason or in ST. But hey, what the hell, he earned those 4 starts with his performance, and he’s 24, so that means he’s good.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Uuuuum...
The Cubs have stated that James Russell will be stretched out and given an opportunity to compete for a spot in the starting rotation. Unless he has a phenomenal spring, I don’t think that is going to happen. One thing that is intriguing about Russell is his strikeout to walk ratio.
Last year, he allowed only two walks per nine, while striking out 7.7 per nine for a 3.28 SO to BB ratio, pretty impressive. And Russell’s big league numbers do not appear to be a fluke … Russell put up similar numbers in the minors.
On the downside, Russell allowed 10 hits per nine and two home runs per nine innings a year ago. Again, Russell’s minor league numbers are consistent in the hit column but he served up more dingers in the majors than down on the farm. Russell has good command but is not overpowering and pitches to contact.
http://chicagocubsonline.com/archives/2011/01/cubspitching11.php
Not getting a ST start is strange, but how siginficant can that possibly be? He was still a reliever in year 1 of returning to starting, and throwing 60 pitches in his first couple starts…perhaps he just wasn’t all that stretched out? Maybe they had him focusing on personalized workouts in spring training. He’s still the one they turned to when the veteran depth went down after the 4 and 5 went down.
But don’t let facts get in your way. You’re annoying btw. Keep playing it in your head that the likes of Ortiz and Diamond would improve the team or are worth “giving a shot” to. Fact is, there’s a very good chance they would have lost those 4 games anyway, and they got valuable information on a young pitcher. They didn’t waste time on the absolute worst, most desperate options in the organization. Diamond and Ortiz will be lucky to be on the AAA roster at the end of the season even.
May that truly be the last word. It won’t be of course, because the next one has to rotate in.
The on the downside part of that "quote"
is exactly why anyone with common sense wouldn’t start him. His downside actually worse in reality, as he gives up HRs at a higher rate than 2/9IP.
Also, you’ve contradicted yourself in you bull**** argument:
“Also, Russell wouldn’t have gotten any starts in August or September last year because they were using him as a reliever then.”
He shouldn’t have gotten any starts this April because they were using him as a reliever then. Despite what this “quote” (who is attributed to no one) says, he wasn’t getting they kind of work in ST that would lead anyone to believe (except you) that he’d be a candidate to start.
Quade’s job is to give his team the best chance to win games. Starting Russell did not give his team the best chance to win. Many of us knew that before he started, all of us, except you know that now.
Now fire back with your obligatory nonsensical attempt to get the last word and declare yourself the “winner” of an argument that you have clearly lost. NEXT!
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
by tripdenten on May 10, 2011 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And yet the Cubs didn't see the downside as anywhere near
as bad as the crap you hope to see pitch.
BTW:
Stating a fact that he was a reliever last year is not contradicting myself. You have a very strange logic. He wasn’t a starter in April, he just didn’t get any March starts…You and I have no idea why, but there’s no denying the Cubs planned to use him as a starter this season.
Except there is denying…because literally no one on the other side of this debate cares one iota for the facts that can’t be acquired through hindsight.
He went from 73 innings two years ago to 204 last year
That scares the crap out of me.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Yep, and did it very well.
Definitely worth watching in that regard, but in the age of internet everything is a worry worth keeping an eye on.
Absolutely - he did great
My point is our current GM knows very well how to offer too many years and too many dollars.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Too true...
but I get the feeling Hendry is outty 500 this offseason. Maybe it’s more of a wish, but it’d be nice. I’m rooting for The Cashman.
Do not need
We have RUSSELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by WhistlerWilliams on May 6, 2011 9:38 AM CDT reply actions
If you really think that's the reason I'm responding to you, you're 100% wrong.
However, I just thought I’d add this to this thread, since it was mentioned above.
Check out Chicago sports coverage at SB Nation Chicago
Russell may well have been the best arm among those available
My problem with him starting was the fact that he was not stretched out to start—if they had, say, punted the first week with Diamond/et al and used that week to enable Russell to be prepared to throw say 100 pitches instead of 75.
by doug dascenzo's change-up on May 6, 2011 11:58 AM CDT reply actions
I'd rather see Doug Dascenzo pitch than Russell.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Yes well things like that happen when a 24 year old reliever.
in the early stages of converting to a starter is the best starter available. Stuff happens when 6-7 guys go down man…why it’s such a big deal is beyond me…it’s not like we were going to win those 4 games trotting out guys crapping the bed in AAA who are older and just plain worse.
Just look at how long it took Dempster to develop
Russel isn’t bad for a 24 year old pitcher. He could become an emergency starter he’s just not ready yet. Teams are lucky to get 3-4 productive years out of a starting pitcher. Even guys like Zambrano are pretty rare. Just ask the Arizona Diamondbacks. You can’t just go out and snatch a #5 starter. That’s why it’s smart to have a veteran in the bullpen.
If the Cubs wanted to win more games, they should really start Marshall. You get a hell of a lot more value out of the guy starting him and letting someone else pitch the 7th every 2 out of 3 days.
Dempster was an all-star at 24 by the way.
"You've got to get your damn shirts rolled up and go out and kick somebody's ass. That's what you've got to do. Period." -- Lou Piniella
Of course, the Cubs HAD a pitcher who could have done that
28, signed for $2.1M in 2011. Can start or work out of the bullpen. Last 4 starts he gave up 5 ER - total in 25 1/3 innings of work, with a WHIP under 1.0. Nice trade, Jim, just what the club needed.
captain hindsight away!
Vote Koyie Hill for 2011 NL All-Star Team Starting First Basemen!
by jesus christos on May 7, 2011 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Focus on getting an Ace
Rather than filling up the payroll with guys who would be the #3 on legit contenders.
Wilson just finished last year pitching behind a top 10 pitcher on a WS team.
He’s now the de facto ace on a team that’s a legit contender again.
The focus should be getting on good players who are durable, athletic, and skilled with work ethics to back it.
You're right
I didn’t realize how far Wilson had come in the last couple of years. He would probably be a great match for Cubs fans who love a guy with a little personality. (And female Cubs fans who are looking for the next <3Mark Grace<3).
How about signing Maddux instead?
Pitching coach seems to be a weak point and the Cubs don’t have any of those coming up through the minors..
im going to settle this issue once and for all
russell is a horrible starter
Vote Koyie Hill for 2011 NL All-Star Team Starting First Basemen!
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