OT: What if the Cubs had hired Kirk Gibson as their manager?
To my memory, Kirk Gibson's name didn't come up in conversations when the Cubs were looking for a permanent replacement for Lou Pinella. But would Kirk have managed to do any better (or worse) than Mike Quade? Given KG's long history in baseball (and football) and his lifelong intensity in both sports, it makes one wonder...
11 months ago
Zeke
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The Cubs would still be terrible
And everybody would be bitching about firing Kirk Gibson.
by Arbusto on Jun 24, 2011 8:00 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
See this were I differ
from others. Cubs terrible, I don’t think so. Would they have the division lead, no, but somewhere in between. 11-22 in the division, lineups all over the place and the page is not long enough to get into Quade’s game decisions.
This team is not that strong, but 30-44 in a extremely weak division is not where this team should be.
Or
We’d have essentially a AAA staff with millions of dollars riding pine and still be losing games.
Definitely!!! There's no doubt because every manager except Quade would do this!!
You’re making wild assumptions about people without having any knowledge of why things are the way they are.
Quade sucks, but the Cubs as a team suck. They would continue to suck if a manager came in here and made all the right moves and held everyone accountable.
Maybe
The Cubs would still be terrible And everybody would be bitching about firing Kirk Gibson.
But they would be busting their tails and playing the game the right way – and keeping their heads in the game.
You’d be willing to pay to see the effort, if not the results.
Plus, the opportunity to see the manager go “BOOM” every so often (for entertainment value)
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
They could motivate the team by allowing them to take a bite after every win
Unfortunately, there would still be half a cheesy crunch gordita moldering in the manager’s office come July.
"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root
Going by that model, we could have a Tootsie Roll Pop as our manager
Takes three consecutive licks to get through one.
Kirk Gibson or Clint Hurdle both would've been fine choices
As a matter of fact…. just about anyone not named Mike Quade would’ve been a good choice.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Like Ryno, Gibson is a legend as a clutch performer and relentless competitor...
Of course, today’s players are too young to have any specific memories of either Gibson or Sandberg as a player, but that likely only increases the power and effect of the legendary status each man holds. There is no convenient metric to determine whether the D-Backs or LV Iron Pigs play harder today than they would for less-renowned managers, but I think most of us have a gut feeling that they have, and will continue to do so, as long as Kirk and Ryno deal fairly with their players.
This effect reminds me a little of what Chicago music legend Leonard Chess had to say years ago about his choice of automobiles – a new Fleetwood or Coupe de Ville every year. “If it was up to me, I probably would drive a Plymouth,” Chess said. “But if I did that,” he continued, “my artists just wouldn’t respect me.”
To most any performer, flash is substance. All else being equal, ballplayers instinctively will respond better to managers and coaches who have played the game at the highest level.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
Is that why Frank Robinson never really became a great manager?
Sorry I disagree. Respect is earned in how the manager works with the player not how well a manager played 20 years ago. Maybe for the first few weeks, a HOF resume might help but after that it means nothing.
Players on the Braves loved and respected Bobby Cox. He was not a good player. Terry Francona was the manager to break the Red Sox streak. His career was not very good.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
As you say, celebrity status won't save any manager's job if he lacks the skill to motivate his players...
Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Jim Leyland, Earl Weaver, Joe McCarthy, and now possibly Joe Maddon, are some of the game’s greatest who either got nothing more than the proverbial cup of coffee in MLB, or who never set foot in the majors as a player.
All I’m saying is that those managers who did perform well as players in the big leagues do, at least initially, receive props from their charges. Obviously, that credibility lasts only so long as a manager knows how to treat players fairly and motivate them consistently in an endless variety of competitive situations.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
Well, whatever else would or would not have happened, Trammell would still be here
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Hey, that's true!
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
The culture...
…of the club may be different and they may have a few more wins, but they would still be a team that wasn’t going anywhere.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Gibson's name didn't come up
because he was already named the manager for the D’Backs a good 5-6 weeks before Lou Pienella retired.
That was on an interim basis, wasn't it?
It wasn’t a foregone conclusion that Gibby would be THE guy as I remember…
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
Yes, it was interim
because they changed GM at the same time, and they wanted the new GM to be able to choose who he wanted as field manager.
But, fan support for Gibson as permanent manager began to build immediately. Not because Gibson started winning…he didn’t…but because you could immediately see a change in approach and philosophy. They lost 97 games last year, but after July 1st the approach to the game and the level of accountability was much different.
That's Kirk.
Spartan to the core!
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
What if the Cubs had hired Kirk Gibson as their manager?
They’d be in 5th place just ahead of the Astros…but, with fewer nicknames. Unless Gibson can hit, run and field the ball, he ain’t the answer either.
With the 1st pick in the 2012 Baseball Amateur Draft, the Chicago Cubs select...
Disagree completely
For the reasons I have stated below. One thing I can say for sure…you would be seeing a different brand of baseball at Wrigley if Gibson were manager (think Mike Scoscia) and opposing teams would have pressure put on them for 9 innings every game.
The hallmark of the D’Backs so far this year has been their never say die attitude. They get down 3 or 4 runs, and you can almost take it to the bank that they will stage a comeback. A week or so ago, I heard a stat that really blew me away. In the games that the D’Backs had lost, in all but a small handful, they had brought the winning or tying run to the plate in the 9th inning.
I don’t really see them winning the West, but one thing is for sure, the fans will have a reason to stay tuned, because they give themselves a chance to win pretty much every game.
And FWIW, Gibson is fond of nicknames, too.
The difference with the D'backs is...
their 3 highest payed player aren’t even making $6M a year. They have a team of young, hungry and aggressive players still trying to make their way in this league. The Cubs?…not so much. Too many over-payed prima donnas on this team. Too many veterans just playing out the string, counting their money and deciding which island to retire to. In other words…the D’backs have something to play for…the Cubs don’t. They know they’re beat. They know 5th place is pretty much theirs – unless the Pirates crumble. Incentive is a big thing. Cubs have none.
With the 1st pick in the 2012 Baseball Amateur Draft, the Chicago Cubs select...
Who are these overpaid prima donnas?
Soriano? I don’t buy that. When I watch the Cubs, I see Soriano playing hard. He may still have leg issues or is protecting against further injury, but to me, Soriano does not deserve all the criticism he gets.
Zambrano? No Way. I wish I had 10 Zambranos on my team.
Ramirez? Maybe. He is the only one. But, like Soriano, I think what a lot of people take as lackadaisical is more the cumulative effect of injuries and age.
I don’t know who else would qualify as a prima donna. And the thing is, outside of those guys, the Cubs roster is pretty young right now. Campana, Colvin, DeWitt, Castro, etc are all pretty young. Byrd is a hustler, so is ’Dome.
Yep, the more I think about it, I think Gibson could do a lot with this ballclub. Except for the injury part, but that is another thing…Gibson is a health/workout fanatic and that has rubbed off on the D’Backs as well.
You may have picked up one or two games with Gibson, but...
this is a VERY bad baseball team. Gibson is not gonna be able to make A-Ram hustle…or Soto to hit in the clutch…or Z from being Z…or Soriano to chase down balls hit into the gap…or get ANY of them to get frickin’ 2 out hit late in the game that ties it or gives them a lead. This team loses 90+ games this year no matter who manages them.
With the 1st pick in the 2012 Baseball Amateur Draft, the Chicago Cubs select...
Naw
The Cubs have an infinitely better rotation and better bullpen than the D’Backs.
They are better at almost every position, save CF and LF.
I am not a big proponent of WAR and all that mumbo jumbo, but I can tell you that Gibson has changed the culture dramatically, and it impacts every single aspect of the game.
For instance, when his 8th inning set up guy had a bad outing recently, Gibson responded by making him the closer the next game. He got the save and then went back to his usual effective self. When players have hiccups with their confidence, he challenges them by putting them in an even more key situation. For whatever reason, it seems to work. Especially from a confidence standpoint.
So, I don’t know how you can say he is only worth one or two wins. If A.J Hinch were managing this ballclub they would be 10 games below .500. And I don’t think A.J. was that bad of a manager
That is how good of a job Gibson has done. I heard Ken Rosenthal say the other day that at this point in the season Kirk is his choice for manager of the year.
I agree...
he should be in the running for Manager of the Year. That doesn’t mean he’d be doing as good with the Cubs. The Cubs are NOT very good…at all.
As far as being better than the D’Backs…I’m not so sure. D’Backs are much better up the middle (C,SS,2B,CF) than the Cubs, and better in RF. Cubs got a better bull pen…pretty equal on starting rotation…maybe a slight edge to D’backs. Off the bench? Either way. Coaching? Need I answer that?
With the 1st pick in the 2012 Baseball Amateur Draft, the Chicago Cubs select...
Yeah
Actually I meant RF, not LF. I think the Cubs get the edge in LF.
Both teams are strong up the middle. I would definitely take Soto over Montero defensively. Offensively, Soto is really up and down.
Hudson and Kennedy are good, but if push came to shove, I’d have to take Dempster and Z. After that, both rotations get pretty thin quickly. Although Wells >> Saunders.
But, I still think Gibson could do wonders with the Cubs. One thing that he has done brilliantly, I think, is mix and match when players are hurt or slumping and somehow squeeze some production out of unexpected places.
However, I can say this
the D’Backs are 8 games over .500 right now, in first place, and I don’t believe for one minute that their roster is as talented as the Cubs. Their payroll is around $45M and includes a lot of players that the Cubs have rejected (Xavier Nady, Aaron Heilmann) or never would have in the first place (Willie Bloomquist, Ryan Roberts, Gerardo Pera).
When Gibson took over the 1st of July last year, you could see a difference in the way the team played immediately. Gibson is much more aggressive in the way he manages. His style is similar to Mike Scoscia.
But, the players were still bad, so there was no improvement in wins and losses, and what you saw were poorly executed bunts, players thrown out taking an extra base or on steal attempts, strike outs and a historically bad bullpen.
But, after a full year, and especially a Gibson run Spring Training this year, the team is better at executing the type of aggressive play that KG demands. That coupled with a better bullpen has resulted in some significant improvement.
I still think the D’Backs are due for some regression this year due to talent level, but there is no doubt Gibson and his staff (Trammell, Nagy, Baylor, Williams) have had a major impact and are getting the most out of the talent they have.
Could they have done that for the Cubs, who have more talent to begin with? Certainly…why not?
I have to agree with you here.
I saw the D’backs play in spring training. I wasn’t impressed. Clearly, Gibson and his staff have done a good job with the talent they have. Can they stay in the race all year? If they get good pitching, probably so. But I have been impressed with Gibson as a manager, definitely.
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Goes to show what can happen with competent leadership that has a defined...
…philosophy and know how to implement it.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
Azjazzman...
How much of the DBacks improvement is defense?
Another surprising improvement team are the Nationals and they have a bunch of castoffs too. Hairston, Nix, Morse, Ankiel. Livan and Marquis are two of their starting pitchers. Ryan Zimmerman also missed time with injuries.
Rizzo caught a lot of flak with letting Dunn go and trading Willingham. That was 2 of their 3 best hitters. He said he wanted better defense and I think that is a big part of their improvement.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Some numbers to show why the D Backs are better than the Cubs
Runs Scored:
ARI 356, Cubs 308
Avg/gm ARI 4.6, Cubs 4.1
Runs Allowed:
ARI-334, Cubs 376
Avg/gm ARI 4.3, Cubs 5.0
Runs Surplus/Deficit:
ARI-+22, Cubs -68
One Run games
ARI 17-9, Cubs 9-12
The numbers don’t lie. The D Backs are scoring more and giving up less by a good margin. The D backs are 90 runs better than the Cubs and the halfway point is a week away.
Is that players or manager? Or both. Someone with more time can compare production out of the 3-4-5 slots in the batting order an I’ll bet there is a huge discrepancy there, too.
"WGN, Channel 9 Cubs Baseball, Excitingly, Importantly, Dramatically Yours." - Jack Brickhouse
what if
the cubs had hired ryne sandberg as mgr. i like that headline better.
More...
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20110626/OPINION03/106260322/Sparky-made-Tigers-champions--today--they-say-thank-you
There are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. Who says baseball isn't a religion?
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They would still suck
They would suck if Ryno was here. They would suck if Pinella had styed. They would suck if LaRussa had come.
This team sucks.
"It's all in the game, yo"
Yep, a bunch of underachieving lollygaggers, for the most part.
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