Wojo takes on Zambrano
Thank God someone sees the truth about this loser.
12 months ago
Worf
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agreed
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jun 6, 2011 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions
He's not right to call out his teammate in public
It’d be one thing if Marmol was generally lazy. He made a mistake.
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 6, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Wow
this article is the old – do everything in your power to prove your point…dont fault the decision to pitch to Pujols, dont fault Marmol for not getting the out, just blame the guy you dont like.
Exactly
If Dempster said it, he would be called a leader. Zambano is the only MLB quality starter they have until Garza gets back.
But we hate Z and love “Give Generously to the foundation of”Ryan Dempster.
No to Otto, etc.; Yes to Moreland for the 2011 Radio Booth
by Dan Serafini on Jun 6, 2011 9:46 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Credible perhaps
But an incredible ERA
No to Otto, etc.; Yes to Moreland for the 2011 Radio Booth
by Dan Serafini on Jun 6, 2011 10:20 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
But who is having the better season?
Hint: It’s not Dempster.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
LOL, what the f*ck else do you want Zambrano to give a damn about?
The name of the game is to win ballgames and Marmol just cost the Cubs 2 wins, the last one because he was an idiot and called off the pitch the catcher signaled for.
Take off your BigZ hate goggles and look at what he said, he spoke the truth and you have a problem with it. LOL again…..
What else is there now.....The Cubs SUCK.....might as well go for your own goals.
Last place will be here soon.
Zambrano is was and will always be the
better pitcher and player.
by SenorGato on Jun 6, 2011 11:04 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I dunno about that at all.
Demspter was better than Z in 2008, 2009 and for at least half of 2010. Z is probably more talented and is better NOW.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
The Chicago media is so f-ing terrible it's not even funny
I feel bad that Zambrano has to deal with the likes of Paul Sullivan and David Haugh. For Z’s sake I hope he gets traded and has a chance to win a ring somewhere else. He doesn’t deserve this crap.
by Bad Midget on Jun 6, 2011 9:44 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Suspend & trade their best starter for speaking the truth.
Awesome idea. Pure brilliance.
If only you brainiacs were running the team.
"They sell every ticket to every game, win or lose!" - Tom Ricketts
I don't think he should be suspended.
I also don’t think he should be traded for what he said yesterday. But should we trade him if the return is good? Hells yeah.
Z is the only big-money player on the Cubs right now who could be traded for anything of value. He’s signed through next season with an expensive 2013 option. Given what we’re looking at in terms of talent on the field and financial flexibility after this season — $40 million coming off the books versus debt problems and falling attendance — I’d try to trade him so we have more financial flexibility over the next two years. Also, I doubt that Z would be back AFTER 2013.
Someone’s going to chime in and say that without Z in 2012, we don’t have a prayer. Well, I’m more of the opinion that he’s not worth $18 million (even as he’s pitching now) and that that money could be used better elsewhere. Al might be right that he likes to hit so much, but I kinda doubt it. Z looks like he wants to play for a winner again.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I would trade anybody on this team to get the giant contracts off the books. I think Z would waive it.
This team is a circus and a joke and he knows it.
We're in agreement.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
No, he shouldn't be suspended, traded or sanctioned
I don’t agree with him calling out Marmol, but other than that, I don’t have an issue with him calling out the play of the team.
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 6, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
What a crock. Z's reaction was temperate and, given the circumstances, justified...
Some reporters seem desperate to generate copy by provoking him. Re: bat breaking, he’s sometimes the best hitter in the lineup – if there’s anyone he’s showing up, it’s stiffs like Soriano. He’s certainly the best we’ve got, and any disciplinary action at this time would be counterproductive, both in terms of team chemistry and reducing Z’s trade value.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
Z isn't the best hitter in any lineup
except for his own mind.. Sure, he can get ahold of one from time to time, but he has no baseball sense whatsoever.
The man has to be freaking reminded to drink water
"It's all in the game, yo"
Why, so he could break a rib swinging for the fences when the situation calls for contact?
"It's all in the game, yo"
Just saying our players suck....
Our weak manager should have suspended him for doing things he was told not to. Like break bats. Z mocked him after…..But Quade has lost the vets he is trying to coddle.
The whole thing is a joke. This is a minor league team. Z is correct. Run by a minor league front office.
dont let facts get in your way
that he is hitting .321 this year – .345 OBP and 1 homer…every player out there swings for the fences now and again just Z is a bigger target for scorn because…well, Im not quite sure.
I've not seen this mentioned
but it looked like the outfield was position for Theriot to get thrown a fastball which Marmol shook off.
Also Riggins could have given the scouting report and told the pitchers to get Theriot out with the high fastball. The reference Zambrano makes give the impression to me that it had to come up at somepoint in a pitchers meeting.
This is one time that Zambrano is not wrong for his statement, he shouldn’t be suspended. The guy has pitched really good since last Aguust.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 6, 2011 9:50 AM CDT reply actions
Apparently, Hill DID tell Marmol
So, at some point, a coach probably told Hill. But, nice try.
"It's all in the game, yo"
So why
is Zambrano wrong for saying that after the game?
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 6, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Because it's not cool to call out another player's bad decision.
Even if the comment is spot on, that’s just not done.
The AAA/embarrassment was much more about the team, and Z couched those comments as such. But to throw any teammate under the bus is a no-no, especially when it’s one of the team’s best players who was a huge reason the Cubs won two divisions and has been a more consistent positive than Z over the past three years.
Put it another way: Did Marmol question Z’s decision making when he got shelled last year on Opening Day in Atlanta?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
That was the only part of what Z did that bothered me
The rest did seem to be honest and measured. This was no blow up as the writers and radio guys will make you believe.
by jerry morales rules on Jun 6, 2011 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
"If they could do their job it would be nice."
Sounds like you’re saying our reporters are the Chicago Cubs of the reporting industry.
He never called out a specific teammate
he called out the whole friggin team, he never said Marmol’s name directly. He said TEAM, TEAM, TEAM. And I’d love to know how all of these beat reporters are certain that Z was looking at Marmol, do these guys have eyes in the back of their heads?
He didn't name him, true.
But he called out the actions made by an individual player. I’m not a fan of that.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
No he didn't, Z called out the actions made by the WHOLE TEAM.
if you view that as him directly picking on Marmol, well fine, you’re entitled to your opinion. But he could have just as well been calling out Hill or Riggins, those are two guys who (in addition to Marmol) should know that Theriot can’t hit fastballs. BigZ specifically said the whole team should know that Theriot can’t hit fastballs.
Z was indicting the whole team IMO, not Marmol specifically, at least that’s the way I heard it…..
I know what you mean.
But we know why the fastball wasn’t thrown — Marmol wanted to throw his out pitch. I’m assuming Z knows that, too, and that that assumption is woven into his comments.
I might be wrong.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
maybe he meant
that a smarter baseball decision there would have been to throw a FB and Z is sick of seeing poor baseball decisions…
by hansman1982 on Jun 6, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Brenly agrees Marmol was thrown under the bus.
But yeah, it’s not the right way to throw your teammate under a bus and divert attention away from the other shortcomings of this ballclub.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
But he also said that this was a "dead-ass" ballclub
And that Dempster and Wood probably don’t feel that they can criticize the team when they are not playing well. Z is the only guy playing well enough to be able to criticize the situation, since the manager, GM, and owner won’t do it.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
BigZ said WE, bro, WE, WE, WE, WE, WE, WE.
We includes Z and a lot of other people, What part of that is so hard for you to understand?
When Z said WE, he included management, ownership, and teammates that includes Ricketts, Quade, Listach, Hendry, Bush, Marmol, Marshall, ARam, Castro, Pena, Byrd, Dempster, all the other players, AND most importantly WE includes BigZ as well.
Just because some beat writers and commentators don’t have a good grasp of what the word WE means in the English language doesn’t mean what they say is correct, it’s their OPINION.
I didn’t hear Z throw any one single player under the bus, I heard him throw the whole organization including himself under the bus……
That's a bit naive
Do you really think that he was blaming Pat Listach for Marmol throwing Theriot a 2-2 slider?
by Shanghai Badger on Jun 6, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
We need to understand that words have to be interpreted not based solely on their meanings but also on the context in which they are used.
We should realize that failing to do so removes much of the meaning from language.
We shouldn’t think that the message contained in this post is responding to any single post in particular.
We should be a lot more careful about making generalizations about the usage of words.
We should be more careful about wondering aloud why something is hard to understand.
We can’t be upset by this post because it’s about us and that includes everyone.
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jun 6, 2011 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Bob Brenly disagrees with you.
So do I.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I just listened to around the horn
and Bill Plashke said the same thing I did, that Z used “We”
Go ahead and believe what you want, I’ll go with the English definition of the word “We” especially when BigZ followed defined what “We” actually meant (i.e., team, owner, manager, and everyone else involved……)
See what I believe your doing is
you are inferring your own thoughts into what Z said, I’ll just stay out of his brain and go with the words that came out of his mouth
Well, maybe.
But I’m not the only one. And Z did apologize to Marmol today. Wonder why …
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Rumor has it he also apologized to himself...
Just sayin…
He did everything except say the name
I wish he would have said, “Yes, the HR ball was a problem, but so was the pitch to Theriot.” That would have spread it out a bit more. The way it was phrased, it was a laser at Marmol.
by jerry morales rules on Jun 6, 2011 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Should Z have called him out
probably not but there has been far worse comments made in many baseball club houses and players moved on.
The question is did Marmol ignore a scouting report meeting about how to pitch the Cardinals and Theriot? The guy does have a nice hitting streak going and should have at least been talked about sometime before or during the series. Marmol basically ran thru a stop sign at 3rd in my opinion.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 6, 2011 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Hollandsworth mentioned this during postgame.
Marmol’s best pitch, his out pitch, is his slider, and he throws it with better command than his fastball. Now, he still should have thrown the fastball — especially with how the outfield defense was shaded. But Marmol has gotten a lot of guys out with that slider over the past five years.
It was the wrong call. But I understand why it happened.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I agree Marmol
has gotten the Cubs out of a lot of jams and his slider is a great pitch. It was the wrong pitch to the wrong hitter for how the defense was set up yesterday. We all know that Theriot can’t catch up to Marmol’s fastball and do much with it. I unfortunately think that Marmol’s strength pitches into Theriot’s strength which is shooting the ball to RF which he can do on a slider down and away or the only ball Theriot can pull is a off-speed slider left middle in, which is what happened.
by Cubsfan Waveland on Jun 6, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I also found it very amusing that I watched Hill look into the dugout numerous times
In that inning, to get a pitch call. I trust Hill to call the 9th by himself more than I trust our dumb and dumber tandem in the dugout.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
No he didn't
Hill went out to talk to Marmol before Theriot’s AB and did not go talk to him after he waved off the fastball call. That’s exactly when he should have gone out, Riggins should have gone out as well to go over the scouting report on Theriot again.
Given the way the Cubs were shading Theriot ...
it’s pretty inexcusable to throw him ANYTHING that he can pull. Marmol clearly wanted to use his best pitch.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
What Hill should have done...
…was put the single finger down for a fastball after Marmol shook it off. If he shakes it off again, he puts the same sign down again. If Marmol refuses to throw it, you call time and go out and tell him to get his head out of his ass and throw to the hitters weakness.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jun 6, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Does Hill have the fingers to do that though?
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
And then Hill goes back to the plate, shakes his head in disgust and says...
“This son of a bitch is shaking me off. You believe that shit? Ryan, here comes the slider. And when you speak of me, speak well.”
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Exactly...
…what I was thinking, that scene in Bull Durham.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The guy hates losing.... and he gets ripped apart by the media for that?
Unreal.
If anything, we need more guys who hate losing as much as Z does.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
by SackMan on Jun 6, 2011 9:54 AM CDT reply actions 9 recs
Well, some people do.
Just read the comments in this thread.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
If he hadn't thrown Marmol under the bus ...
I’d be with you.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Who cares if it was Marmol?
Because he’s struck out a bunch of dudes and is our closer, he’s exempt from criticism? That’s bullcrap.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
You don't throw any teammate under the bus, Craig.
Seriously, can you name another time a player has done that? Now, you can argue that Z wasn’t exactly doing that (I disagree, but I see the argument).
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Jesus
So holding your teammates accountable for their idiotic mistakes is throwing them under the bus? I don’t care who it was that was called out, but after the way this team has played, they all needed to be called out. If someone was specified for their especially eggregious mistake, then, well, be a man, and take that criticism. What are they, babies? Stop coddling them. If anyone on this team can’t take that kind of heat at this point, then f’ ‘em. In previous seasons, where they were good, I could see not agreeing with this because it could be seen as blowing something out of proportion. This season though, it’s time to separate the men from the boys.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Whoa, dude.
Switch to decaf.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
You think I'm enraged.
Hilarious.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
I was just trying to lighten the mood, Craig.
I disagree with you. I don’t like what Z did re: Marmol. You’re not really going to convince me otherwise, nor am I going to convince you.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
No, that's cool.
We’re not all the same.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
It's called...
pulling the punch out of your argument with a little humor.
That can't be what it's called.
Anyone have a nice succinct word?
I have often ...
… called for Z to be traded after one of his tirades.
This wasn’t one of them. It was a measured statement, no yelling and screaming, no Gatorade coolers broken, no teammates attacked in the dugout in front of TV cameras.
He spoke the truth like a team leader. I like this version of Z. This article is patent nonsense.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
by Al Yellon on Jun 6, 2011 10:08 AM CDT reply actions 7 recs
The only thing wrong with what he said is....... it's true!
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Thats not going to sit well with the Kool Aid drinkers....
Their heads are going to explode….
All things Cub are great, yet a Cub made fun of the team….!!!!!!!!! WHAT TO DO!!!!!
Wait.
Worf is a Kool-Aid drinker? I’m a Kool-Aid drinker?
I think you can honestly disagree with Z’s actions without being a Kool-Aid drinker.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
No you are not....you know the ones I am talking about...The ones everyday who find no fault with this team....
This includes their owner
The owner finds many faults. He just chooses to not voice them to the media.
I prefer that approach over the clown in New York, who threw his entire team under the bus.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Come on man.
The guy’s not an idiot.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Exactly.
Ricketts hasn’t been very smart in his comments — nothing wrong but injuries, etc. — but no one looks at a team 11 under .500 in early June and thinks that nothing is wrong.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
It's never wise to bash your own business/employees
In the media.
It’s your business after all….
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
But here's the thing:
How would Z have liked it if last season, somebody like Marlon Byrd called him out for making a big-time mistake — even if it was a big-time mistake?
Z can be accurate without being right. Note that I only think this applies to what he said about Marmol’s pitch selection.. The AAA/embarrassing stuff was no biggie, IMO.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
He should have left marmols name out of it. Marmol has bailed him out several times as well over the years....
But Z is right that they suck.
We agree, TJ!!!!
We actually do.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I agree
and rec’d. A few of us discuss this a bit yesterday, but the consensus seemed to be keep Z and Garza, neither are a #1 pitcher, but have them as a core and build around it.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm with ya...
…and considering there doesn’t seem to be loads of leadership coming from the clubhouse, I have no problem with what Z said.
At some point, you have to get pissed off about losing and this was one of those times.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
The key in all...
is the word “we.” Not once did Zambrano throw anyone under the bus – he constantly used the word WE.
Exactly.
It was spoken as a leader. Good for Z.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
He did what a veteran player should do
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jun 6, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
It was almost like he was pleading for somebody in management to say something first.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jun 6, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
he knows they won't, so he did
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jun 6, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
I read his statement
as more of a damnation of the decision making and the decision to throw Theriot anything but a FB was a bad one…could be he sees the piss-poor decisions that have happened and is fed up
i think the big problem is people are READING the "rant" and not seeing Z as he's giving it...
watch the interview, he pauses for a second and then goes into the “rant”…he’s collected, calm ( for the most part), logical and isnt malicious with it. i think it was well placed and refreshing to see it, like i said elsewhere, if he gives the same interview after tomorrows game then I grant full permission to pile on Z.
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
So sad...
This is all becoming so embarrassing really, to all parties involved.
Shame on Zambrano. Summer is finally here in Chicago, and nothing kicks off the season quite like a Zambrano implosion.
Shame on the local media. A weird bunch if there ever was one. They’ll kiss the ring to the point of appearing clownish, then fall all over themselves to kick easy prey. That Haugh piece this morning was ill-conceived and lacked any sort of seriousness. I love Wojo, but where is the context? It’s just a bad hack job.
Shame on the Cubs. This is a terrible product, and when Carlos Zambrano is your canary in the coalmine, you know you’ve got leadership issues.
And I’ll say it. Shame on the fan. Calling on Zambrano to be traded over matters that should have, and need to be resolved in the clubhouse is a bit much. I can think of a ton of reasons to trade Carlos (and think the Cubs should), but this ain’t one of them.
This season has officially turned into a circus, and I don’t like clowns. Somebody wake me at the trading deadline.
Mea culpa: Internet Irrelevance
I never really liked some Cubs, so I never gave them the time of day. People here know that I had my share of problems with Derrek Lee and I have been critical of Carlos Marmol. Yes. I have been critical of many other Cubs, but those two were Cubs in recent years that I didn’t cut any slack. Anything good out of them was just a bonus, but I never let up on them. And you know what the problem here is? It’s totally irrelevant.
Do I have a right to criticize the Cubs organization and its players? Sure. It’s my Constitutionally protected right of free speech that permits me to do that. But was my criticism the thing that got Derrek Lee traded? No. Carlos Marmol is still a Cub no matter how much I don’t like him as a pitcher. I’m sure Marmol is a fine human being, but I don’t think I can ever have a positive opinion of him as a pitcher. Some people have similar problems with Carlos Zambrano and will never ever give the guy the time of day. I defended Ryan Theriot up until the day he was traded.
But it’s all irrelevant internet fodder in the end. Jim Hendry is still General Manager. Lou Piniella left on his own terms. Mike Quade is still the manager. Ryne Sandberg probably won’t have good relations with the Chicago Cubs for a number of years. This team is still a long way from competing and has a good shot at finishing last in the league this season if they don’t start playing up to their potential. In the end, they’re still playing to win. They’re just snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
So Wojo, get over yourself. It’s advice I should take more often.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
Well said, AV...
except this one thing here:
good shot at finishing last in the league this season if they don’t start playing up to their potential
What’s to make us believe that they aren’t?
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981
I don't know
Objectively, part of me wants to give this team the benefit of the doubt. They could be playing worse than they really are and there’s a lot of baseball left to find out just how good or bad they really are. On the same token, they could actually be playing better than they really are, which is not comforting at all.
RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010) and Ron Santo (February 25, 1940-December 2, 2010).
If you disagree with me in any way, you are wrong.
For the season so far
The Cubs record (23-34) is exactly what their run differential (minus 52) says it should be right now. So in that sense, they’re right where they should be. I happen to think that their potential is higher (but not much higher), and it will help when Garza returns so that we’ll only be missing one member of our opening day starting rotation. As for the offense, some of their under-performing hitters (Ramirez, Soto, Colvin, Pena) have to start warming up soon, right? Right?
by Jody Jody Davis on Jun 6, 2011 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Pena's already gotten better.
Ramirez will hit more home runs (free agency is approaching, and he is historically a second-half player). Colvin looks completely lost and who the hell knows with Geo.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
It should be noted that
Sullivan has been pushing this “Zambrano’s a bad clubhouse presence” fake persona for years. The man has it in for him bad. The whole media for some reason has it in for him. Except this time the fans are actually behind Z which is really good to see.
Except for McNeil
McNeil was on the record again this morning that he’s fascinated by Z, didn’t think Z said anything wrong, and doubts that Z will be allowed to comment further or participate in any kind of events in front of media for a while.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jun 6, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
McNeil has always said that Z is the most entertaining sports personality in this town.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
I see nothing wrong with what Z said about the TEAM...
As far as singling out Marmol…well, there’s nothing good to ever come out of one player criticizing another.
What really sticks in my craw is a manager who speaks like an immature buffoon:
"You’re just saying ‘OK, who best to start this thing off by getting him out?"’ Quade said. "Let’s take a shot with Lopey. Sometimes, the numbers do lie."
Lopey? Wellsy? These are grown men. Treat them as such, will you? Enough with the kiddie nicknames.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981
The nicknames are irrelevant.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Maybe...
but he sure sounds like an idiot when he talks that way.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981
Agreed.
But if we were in first place right now, we’d be happy about our folksy manager.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Winning cures everything.
And we desperately need a cure.
"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes..."
Exactly.
I don’t think there’s a manager out there who doesn’t use nicknames like that. They have nothing to do with anything.
This is definitely a big deal.
I hate it too. It’s part of The Problem.
by SenorGato on Jun 6, 2011 11:06 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Got it, kandy
Really, this is a ridiculous complaint.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 6, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Not really
This is pretty common in a baseball clubhouse.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 6, 2011 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Not to do it...
with every single name. The Cubs early 90’s had Gracie. They didn’t have Dawsy, and Ryney and Dunsty as well.
Brenly rises to the defense of Zambrano
Refers to the Cubs as a “dead-ass team”.
Like I said, when Zambrano is your canary in a coalmine, you know you’re in trouble.
by Damen Jackson on Jun 6, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Brenly used the exact same words to describe last year's team
Oddly enough, it was also in the context of something Zambrano did (the dugout fight with D-Lee).
by Jody Jody Davis on Jun 6, 2011 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree with Brenly's comments 100%.
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Even this?>
As for Zambrano’s criticism of Marmol’s pitch selection, Brenly said it was "way out of character for Carlos to take a shot at Marmol," but said it was an emotional time immediately after Sunday’s loss.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Uh-oh Bob.... watch out our you'll be exhiled like Steve Stone was.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Had the same thought ...
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Yep
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. ~Bob Lemon, 1981
has anyone come out of the booth-directly to the managers position during a season?
I’d like to see it happen here….LEN KASPER FOR MANAGER!!!
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
I believe it's happened with the Cubs
Some sort of Lou Boudreau-for-Charlie Grimm swap?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 6, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes.
That was in 1960. Grimm was awful in the booth, and Boudreau’s managing could not help that team avoid a 90-loss season.
After the season Boudreau went back to broadcasting, and the Cubs went to the College of Coaches.
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yikes.
so Grimm was managing and boudreau in the booth and they just switched places? thats so hard for me to wrap my sensitive, born in the 80’s mind around.
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
Yeah, it's not likely something that could happen today.
There have been managers that have gone back & forth. Bob Brenly, obviously. Joe Torre did some broadcasting in between managing stints. Larry Dierker came from the booth to the manager’s chair.
But swapping jobs? Unheard of, in today’s baseball.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
in the fifth round, you're gonna feel a little sting...
that’s pride…effing with you.
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
It was a classic Phil Wrigley publicity move,
Right up there with the College of Coaches, the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League, the donation of Wrigley Field’s light towers to the war effort, and the wartime manufacture of Wrigleys’ Gum strictly to fulfill government contracts.
The story began the previous fall, when Phil hired Charlie Grimm for his third go-round as Cubs’ manager right before the first game of the 1959 World Series. This was Wrigley’s way of getting his name and the Cubs back in the headlines at a time when most of Chicagoland was caught-up in the White Sox’ first WS appearance since 1919.
Hiring Grimm did get Phil some publicity, but it also cost him the services of Bob Scheffing, who had managed to keep the 1959 Cubs in contention until the dog days of August. Then, a few games into the 1960 season, Grimm saw where the team was headed and let Wrigley know he wasn’t up to the job.
But Phil’s solution to send Boudreau to the dugout and Grimm to the broadcast booth actually made sense. Both men had years of experience as both broadcasters and managers. In 1960, Lou was only 42, but had long been famous for winning the 1948 World Series as manager of the Indians, a feat that eventually won him a spot in Cooperstown. Also, he had been watching the Cubs as one of baseball’s pioneer broadcast analysts all through 1958 & ’59.
For his part, Grimm had broadcast for the Cubs and AAA Milwaukee Brewers in the early 1940’s, and was one of baseball’s earliest goofball sidekicks in the radio booth. Both Lou and Charlie adapted well to their new assignments and, if you dropped by to watch batting practice at WF in ‘60, you might have seen Lou taking a few swings. Also, he often would come out of the dugout between innings to take warmup tosses from whoever was on the mound. (I especially remember him doing this during Cardwell’s 5/15/60 no-hitter.)
Charlie in ‘60 proved himself to be a proto-Santo, entertaining fans from his unique perspective. And, whenever he was at the mike during a Cubs’ pitching change, you could count on hearing Charlie’s deep baritone announcing the arrival of “Cubs’ manager Loooo Bud-rooowww,” as the Good Kid made his way to the mound, sometimes accompanied by Cubs’ rookie third baseman “Ron San-tooowww.”
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
...and he would probably tell the Cubs
to kiss his a$$ on the way out. After laughing in their face.
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Swung on belted!!!"---Chip
Same here
Z was wrong to single out Marmol, but I can’t find fault with his other comments.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 6, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
This tirade is spiraling out of control quickly.
I’m honestly looking forward to Ricketts comments. I hope he hired a PR person recently to help him out on this one.
It's not Ricketts place to speak on matters like this.
This is the job of the GM.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
"Well, I think all of the team's injuries have caused Carlos to be a little mad."
“Also, does the MLB have a lemon law?”
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
If I were Ricketts I would ask
“What’s the exchange policy on this thing?”
I'm sure the RMA fee is outrageous.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Damen, that was quite possibly the most intelligent Internet Post of all time
Well played sir.
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
Why do we have such horrible sports writers in this town. It's Chicago for crying out loud!
All they ever write is reactionary BS, that can be read on blogs on the internet by fans like me and you.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
You're going to have to wait until the old guard is gone.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
At least Sam Smith was always good for his own trade of the week scenario.
Some original thought…
Nobody in this town dares to actually offer forward thinking or out-of-the-box ideas about our sports teams. They just react to the daily news, and jump to the keyboard for the race to publish to the internet before the other paper does. It’s awful. The things that get published by Chicago sports fans on sites like this are 100 times more insightful about our teams, then the crap that gets published in this town.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Absoutely.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm interested to see what Wilbon has to say on PTI today
Now that he’s left the post, he’s spending a lot more time in Chicago. It’s a shame that he’s forced to appear on the ESPN radio shows, because they are pretty bad.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
I'm not sure who the best columnist is in Chicago anymore
I think some editors encourage this kind of knee-jerk reaction because it garners Web hits and matches the vitriol you hear on sports-talk radio.
Say what you want about how exciting they were, but when the Tribune had Lincicome and Verdi, they were tough to top.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jun 6, 2011 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, it looks like the battle lines have been drawn.
To quote Marvel’s Civil War storyline, “I’m with Big Z.”
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 11:12 AM CDT reply actions
Carlos Zambrano is a thorn in the Chicago Cubs' side.
At this point I don’t give a shit what he does, I don’t want him on the team anymore.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
yeah
let’s get rid of our best, most consistent starter, right? He’s the only reason to even watch team anymore.
Bill James once said something to the effect that
one of the problems with bad teams is that they tend to blame their best players for futility when, in fact, the ire should be focused on the bad players.
by Jody Jody Davis on Jun 6, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Bill James is a smarter mofo.
A great example would be ARod, who caught blame for the pitching-less Rangers of the 2000’s (one of their best pitchers was Rick Helling lol) and then moved to the Yankees to get ripped for his lack of rings and unclutchness until 2009.
The only reason?
Paging Starlin Castro. Starlin Castro to a white courtesy phone …
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Paying a headcase
$19,000,000/year for another 2.5 years isn’t a good idea. I love using statistics to back up my arguments, but in Zambrano’s case, Baseball Reference doesn’t track the number of broken bats, punched teammates, destroyed Gatorade containers, bananas eaten, and other general immature doings of Carlos Zambrano. He’s a walking contradiction and annoying as hell.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Well, it's really only another 1.5 years.
2013 is an option year. And that is significant in this case.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Not his fault Hendry completely overpaid.
Carlos Zambrano has never had a full season where his ERA is over 4.0. The amount of hate he gets is ridiculous. He deserves a chance to win a ring somewhere else.
the number of broken bats
Who cares? That’s such a petty thing to say.
punched teammates
he’s done that one time and for good measure.
destroyed Gatorade containers
again, who cares? I thought people wanted fire from their players.
bananas eaten
Bananas are good for you.
He didn't punch DLee.
They just yelled and stuff.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
It doesn't even matter to get my point across.
Real “leaders” don’t have to go pushing, punching, breaking, hemming and hawing to make their point. Zambrano’s 126+ ERA isn’t going to do much for this team in 2011. Wiping the slate clean is more important to me than his “fiery” attitude.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I completely agree about getting his salary off the books
it’s just that I think he’s a really good pitcher and deserves some respect and admiration.
Hey man, I'm all for that.
I wrote a post some time ago trying to justify Zambrano as a #1 starter. The immaturity just gets really, really old. I have a classroom full of 5th graders that have greater emotional maturity. Bananas? Really? We have to tell you to eat more bananas? You’re 30, dude.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Well, he absolutely didn't hit Derrek Lee.
And when we’re trying to assess how bad of an apple Zambrano really is, throwing in an instance (which never happened) where Z “hit” one of the team’s leaders for much of a decade ups the ante considerably.
Now, I’m fine trading Z because I’d like to move his contract. But let’s base our analysis of Z on things that actually happened.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
No, it really doesn’t. It’s the perception that he could and would hit Lee that matters, isn’t it? Does that seem like a real swell teammate leader guy to you? Even if my mind mistakes me and he did not hit Lee, it’s just as bad.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Come on.
Our opinion of Z should be shaped by something that never happened? And if there was no difference between hitting Lee and yelling at him, why did you try to correct me? If it’s “just as bad” …
You are wrong about this point. You are entitled to your own opinion — if you think Z is a headache/brat/etc. — fine. But you are not entitled to your own facts.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I'm not making up facts, nor am I trying to twist the truth.
I honestly thought he punched Lee.
My point is that perception is reality—it’s a bit silly to be calling a guy that essentially tramples his teammates any sort of leader given the laundry list of immature and brash actions he’s taken over the last few years. He clocked one guy in the face, and yeah (I guess…), shoved another, it seems like we’re slicing hairs here. I don’t really know what you’re arguing for.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
He didn't even shove him.
Where are you getting this? I showed you two stories that mentioned NOTHING about Z punching or shoving Derrek Lee. I’m arguing with you because you’re trying to inflate the case against Zambrano when — by your own admission — it needs no inflating.
I agree that Z shouldn’t be called a leader because of his actions yesterday AND because of his long track record. I also think that he shouldn’t have said what he said about Marmol — I’ve been saying that all day. But hitting/shoving a teammate is a BIG deal. So you should stop insinuating that Z did that last year.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
So he was suspended for intimidation?
The threat of violence? Alright, I’ll settle for that.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
He was suspended because he came completely unglued.
I’ve never heard anything about threats of violence, either.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Yeah,
there wasn’t a punch thrown, nor was there a threat of violence. It was nother volcanic Z outburst, one of a couple that season.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
You don't get suspended for getting your panties all in a bunch.
You get suspended because you’re in the dugout being held back by teammates and gonna clock someone. Like this:
Or like this:
Or maybe this:
Possibly this:
And making the nicest man on the team (and the real leader), look like this:
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Jun 6, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Those were not all from the same game and you know it.
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Of course they're not.
Zambrano “calling out” his team for craptastic play is a joke, because he’s a joke and has a long history of being immature and the problem, not the solution. Like i said above, he’s not going to pull us out of the cellar, get rid of him and start a new page in 2012 and beyond. I speak to no isolated incident.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
No one is going to pull us out of the cellar now
but there’s no reason to cut ties with him, which they’re not going to be able to do anyway, when he’s going to be a key part to a decent pitching rotation, along with a better infield and outfield in 2012, or more likely, 2013. Your one reason to cut him now because he’s not going to pull us out of cellar is highly irrelevant. I totally understand why you want him gone though.
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by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess I'd take him over Dempster.
He’s 4 years younger and a better pitcher. But do you want your young staff looking up to Carlos Zambrano for advice?
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I've agreed with a lot of what you've said.
I don’t think Z should be looked at as a leader after what he said yesterday. And I’d definitely trade him in the right deal.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Well I apologize for misrepresenting the punching.
I did not look it up—I was certain he did hit him. My fault. I’m sorry about that. Good discussion with you.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
It's cool.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
SAM FULD COULD HAVE!!!!!
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
Apparently...
… you do. Because Z got suspended after not throwing a punch.
And I agree with that suspension despite the lack of punches.
This, however, was a different kind of incident.
"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes..."
He punched Lee in the dugout. And that's in addition to the Barrett thing.
Zambrano acts like a baby and deserves to be treated as such.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
I don't think that's right.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
He punched him.
And he was suspended. I don’t think you’re suspended for pushing.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Doesn't say anything about that in this story.
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5328972
Zambrano had to be separated from teammate Derrek Lee in the visitors’ dugout after surrendering four runs to the Chicago White Sox in the bottom of the first inning at U.S. Cellular Field.
It was unclear what upset Zambrano, but his frustration was directed at Lee. The two were face to face before manager Lou Piniella and others intervened. Zambrano also walked up and down the dugout shouting and knocked over a Gatorade cooler before Piniella told him to go home.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Or this one
http://archive.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/06/cubs-update-zambrano-explodes-early.html
Zambrano put the game out of reach in the first inning, and then exploded in the dugout, engaging in a shouting match with Derrek Lee. A three-run homer by Carlos Quentin put the White Sox ahead 4-0 and sent Zambrano into a rage. He had a heated dugout exchange with Derrek Lee, smashed a Gatorade cooler, and was sent home for the day. Tom Gorzelanny replaced Zambrano to start the second inning.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
As I recall it...
… he never touched Lee.
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That would be because he didn't.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Jun 6, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
A lot of close proximity shouting...
… but not a punch.
There used to be video somewhere. Of course MLB is tight-fisted on video clips, so it’s gotta be tough to find.
"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes..."
Here's one in Spanish
Start at about the 2:25 mark – you are correct that there’s a lot of shouting, but no contact.
by Jody Jody Davis on Jun 6, 2011 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with Z.
I don't always block shots, but when I do....I block yours.
Kyle Korver is open as soon as he gets out of his car at the UC. -
Stacey King
Not a good article.
Stats are incomplete and deliberately misleading (if you would like me to go over these, I will. I’ll leave Z’s .625 winning percentage over the course of those 25 wins Woj complains about as a teaser). Arguments nonsensically undermind the point Woj is trying to make (the rant means nothing coming from Zambrano… but he should be suspended because of it; stating that he thinks Zambrano’s right).
Taken as a whole the article looks more like a writer attacking a player he doesn’t like using partial truths and revisionist tactics.
Essentially, Woj goes on a rant without giving any thought to what he’s saying and calls Zambrano a hypocrite… for ranting. That’s very “meta” of you, Woj.
"Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes..."
stupid article .. and that's a shame
coming from a guy whose book on the Cubs I really loved
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
This shows how sensitive we are as a society
Nothing wrong with what Z said here. Lighting a fire under this team’s ass is exactly what they need, unless of course your content with the current losing attitude and lousy fundamentals.
I will be astounded if this lights a fire under this team.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
I think the fire is more likely to start...
once Garza gets back and the rotation has it’s top 4.
I'm not assuming it will
In fact, I doubt it will. Still, I’d rather have a losing team that seem somewhat realistic rather than a losing team that bullsh*ts themselves and the media. Z is taking a step in the right direction here.
terms and conditions?
"There had to be a place where the game could be fun again….that place is called Wrigley Field"---Andre Dawson
One thing you learned as a Cubs fan: when you bought your ticket, you could bank on seeing the bottom of the ninth. Joe Garagiola
I sure as hell
hope Hendry doesn’t suspend Z over telling the truth cause that would be just wrong!
IMO Z was not ranting as the media likes to portray it. There was no yelling, shouting, etc in his statement.
Hendry should be fired for whatever reason you want to come up with.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
wow TJ, have you got the man crush on Zambrano lately or something?
First time I noticed you on BCB talking about him, you thought he was something filthy you found on your plate.
AMAZING!
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
"Swoosie" - heh heh...
Looks like the Quadenator ID Changer app has already been installed on BCB. ;-)
Lou Brown: "My kinda team, Charlie, my kinda team..."
Z IS CORRECT.
That’s all there is to it.
“The essence of the Yankees is that they win. From in front or from behind, they win. And that’s why the history of the New York Yankees is virtually the history of baseball.”
Dave Anderson, New York Times
Consider a Cubs version of this dictum. It’s not rocket science. Z is correct.
Everyone calling for his head because he’s had issues in the past is so narrow minded they can see through key holes with both eyes. Z is correct.
He snaps bats, rumbles with players, kicks around coolers and says things you don’t like. But is he wrong on any of this? Excuse me? You still think he’s wrong?
Blue mountains high .. Blue valleys low
I don't know which way we shall go ..
One summer dream .. one summer dream ..
coda
ELO, 1975
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