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Josh Vitters, 3b, Cubs: Last week was a synopsis of Vitters' struggles at the plate. He put balls in play, striking out twice, but only a lone single dropped in for a hit. His 1-for-3 effort sank Vitters' numbers to .274/.310/.435, still hovering above the Southern League average, but much more is expected of the 2007 third overall pick. Vitters' great hand-eye coordination can cause problems for him, as he makes plenty of contact, but sometimes on pitches that he was better off letting go.

11 months ago Tiny FTLOTC 61 comments 1 recs  | 

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John Sickels on Vitter

Sickels:

“I really don’t like the idea of pulling the plug on a prospect who is just 21 years old, but it is time we faced some facts about Chicago Cubs cornerman Josh Vitters. He still has the pretty swing, but his .279/.315/.442 line in 69 games for Double-A Tennessee is just not impressive, and his miniscule walk rate and impatience is in danger of dragging down his career.

Vitters boosters will point to the fact that he’s fanned just 19 times and is still young for the level, and they have a point. It is still plausible that he’ll emerge as the player Cubs officials dream on, hitting for a high batting average with power. But while plausible, it no longer seems probable to me. His game is so strongly dependent on his batting average that, unless he can consistently hit .300 or higher, which seems doubtful to me, his OBP will be a drag on the offense.

“He’s on course for a 14-homer season this year, which just isn’t enough for a corner guy, especially a first baseman. I note that his third base fielding percentage is down to .869 this year and that his range factor in 47 games there is terrible. He’s also played 26 games at first base, and it would surprise no one if Vitters ends up there in the end. And if that happens, he’ll really have to pick up the hitting to play regularly in a major league lineup.

It isn’t too late for him, but he’s got to make significant progress in the second half to still rank as an elite prospect."

by FTLOTC on Jul 1, 2011 2:33 PM CDT reply actions  

Something wrong with that quote

“He put balls in play, striking out twice…”

“His 1 for 3 effort sank Vitters’ numbers to .274…”

Striking out twice in three at-bats is the definition of NOT putting “balls” in play. Maybe you could say he “put ball in play,” but why would you? And a 1 for 3 game may be nothing to write home about, but I’m pretty sure it would raise a .274 average, not sink it.

But overall, yeah, doesn’t sound too promising.

by Orval Overall on Jul 1, 2011 2:50 PM CDT reply actions  

i think it meant he strike twice all of last week

Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land

by jesus christos on Jul 1, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's a typo.

Vitters was 1-13 last week with only 2 Ks and no walks.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, the column is only based on 1 week.

If that wasn’t the case, I’m sure they would have said he was 1 for his last 17, with only 2 strikeouts, just for effect.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 2:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Vitters was hot all of June.

He got hit on his hands (?) and cooled down. I’m not all that worried about him just yet.

by SenorGato on Jul 1, 2011 2:51 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Vitters had 12 hits in June.

12 for 67. That’s a .179 average.

With 2 HR and 10 RBI.

And 2 walks.

If that’s “hot”, I’d hate to see his “cold”.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 1, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't believe that's right

I may be wrong, but he had a really hot month, like over .300. Was that May?

by Ryno G on Jul 1, 2011 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, his June was fairly decent actually...

I think you missed some numbers there. According to FanGraphs’ game logs, Vitters was 21-67 (.313) with 6 doubles. You were correct about the 2 HR and 10 RBI. Not spectacular, but not remotely awful. That’s consistent with MILB too.

He really cooled off over the last week, but that was following getting hit in the head.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I misread that chart, as if it were a box score.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 2, 2011 12:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh I must have lost track...

I know he started the month hot and even had a stretch where he was OPSig over 1.100…ah well.

by SenorGato on Jul 1, 2011 8:10 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

You're recollection was correct

I don’t know where D98 got 12 hits. Vitters was 20/50 with 2 HR and 6 2B through June 19 (16 games).


Vitters Game Log on Fangraphs

by Bradsbeard on Jul 2, 2011 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Make that June 24 when he got hit.

I was looking at the All Star break. He was 20 for 55 in June before then.

by Bradsbeard on Jul 2, 2011 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

No, you are right, I misread the chart.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 2, 2011 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is definitely not so.

He was 20 for 50 in his first 16 games in June prior to the All Star break. He got hit on June 24th the second game after the break.

by Bradsbeard on Jul 2, 2011 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Gary Hughes was on XM the other day, Wednesday I think

and he seemed more concern with the defense. Says he thinks it will come around but that it’s just not where the club or Vitters wants it. Hopefully, it will come around. He is young for the league, so I’m still hopeful, but certainly not someone I’d say is a lock.

by ScottT on Jul 1, 2011 3:44 PM CDT reply actions  

Defense

Yeah, a fielding percentage below .900 is pretty scarry.

by FTLOTC on Jul 1, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

If he has to move to 1B for defensive reasons...

his value becomes as close to nil as possible.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 1, 2011 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Matters less in the minors...

Fields are crappier, teammates are crappier, they’re still being coached, and so on….I’m more worried if I hear he’s stiff or loafing/lumbering….and even then guys like David wright had that said about them coming up…alot of 3B do they’re the guys too big and clunky to play MIF but not so off for 1B.

by SenorGato on Jul 1, 2011 8:27 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

This was the same argument made regarding Castro...

And Castro has looked pretty questionable defensively as well. A fielding percentage of sub-.900 is bad at any professional level. I’m pretty sure that’s low even in the minors, and those guys are all playing on the same bad fields.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Castro's offense is where most of his value is at...

A team from NY managed to get by with an offense first SS.

by SenorGato on Jul 2, 2011 1:08 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Not remotely relevant to my point...

you said his defensive issues matter less in the minors because of bad fields. I was pointing out that people made the same excuses about Castro’s minor league woes. Lo and behold, he’s struggling defensively in the majors.

If Vitters has a fielding percentage below .900 now at 3B, it’s unlikely he’s going to magically become adequate there in the MLB without a lot of work.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, if Castro hits enough he's fine...

Vitters’ defense has been apparently worse than Castro’s, which means he’d have to hit a lot more. And that’s on top of the fact that he plays a position that requires more hitting to begin with.

Basically, I concur with Sickels’ concerns. The low walk rate is a concern. The slowly-developing power is a concern (less concerning because he’s young, but at some point it needs to arrive). And the defense at 3B is a concern because it may force him to a position that puts even more pressure on his bat.

The caveats are that he’s young and his swing looks nice. Hopefully at some point they’ll translate.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think worst case is that

he has to pull a Braun and move to LF. There’s a whole lot of 3B in the league who came up with defense questions. Theres very few Zimmerman or longorias out there.

by SenorGato on Jul 2, 2011 11:04 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

The problem is that he doesn't hit like Braun...

His bat is still a question mark at 3B. If he’s forced to go to 1B or LF, the bat is a HUGE question mark. That’s a bad “worst case” scenario, unless he really starts to find his power and starts hitting well over .300.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Were lucky in that

Braun didn’t enter the upper minors until he was 22…he was drafted at the age vitters is now. There’s only so long age will help vitters, but I still think it’s there for the time being.

by SenorGato on Jul 2, 2011 11:23 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I agree that time is still on Vitters' side for another year or two...

And if he starts raking like Braun did in AA next year (Braun had a .956 OPS in AA at 22), then a move from 3B to LF would be fine for Vitters.

Basically, I agree with Sickels. There’s still hope for Vitters, but I think it’s looking more doubtful than probable (especially if he has to move from 3B to 1B or LF). At some point, he needs to go from being projection to production.

I hope he can have a strong second half and start showing power this year or next. But I’m definitely wary of the same things that Sickels is concerned about.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

It sure seems that quality 3b and SS are hard to find.

Luckily, the Cubs may not have an issue at SS for years to come.

by jerry morales rules on Jul 2, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Vitters has had more chances on D

regardless of the fields they play on – isn’t Vitters more discouraging??

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry

by Hammer on Jul 2, 2011 3:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would say yes...

especially since he’s not hitting nearly enough for a corner IF position to offset that apparently poor defense.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Castro's offense is where most of his value is at...

A team from NY managed to get by with an offense first SS.

by SenorGato on Jul 2, 2011 1:08 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

re: Castro

Castro struggles with his footwork while making throws – meaning – crappy fields would not be a big factor.

Where he lacks IS something he is hopefully working on. Is there where we miss Alan Trammell??

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry

by Hammer on Jul 2, 2011 3:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm starting to think

that we will never see him in a cubs uniform. Can someone refresh my memory on his ranking going into the draft in 2007? Was he a suprising pick that high or was he supposed to go top five?

by hoppy91 on Jul 1, 2011 4:44 PM CDT reply actions  

He wasn't a reach at all

He went where he was supposed to.

by Ryno G on Jul 1, 2011 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

One way or the other,

I think that he will get a shot at some point. I’m still not as down as a lot other people because there are some bright spots in his numbers.

by jerry morales rules on Jul 2, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

He was considered the best hs bat in the same draft as

Heyward, who was somewhat of a late riser.

Just for fun…heyward in Cubbie blue = drool.

by SenorGato on Jul 2, 2011 5:10 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

At the time

it was a choice between Vitters and Wieters.

Neither has developed as expected.

by Clark Addison on Jul 1, 2011 5:10 PM CDT reply actions  

Vitters = Francoer

Was comparing their minor league numbers. They progressed through the same levels at nearly identical ages with very similar performance. I think a Jeff Francoer comp would be a fair expectation for Vitters.

by FTLOTC on Jul 1, 2011 7:39 PM CDT reply actions  

Francouer couldn't hit a curveball to save his life.

I have never heard that for vitters. Francouer was just a bad hitter who could hit the ball far…and for a while in the minors for average…the guy got eaten alive by a good curveball or slider.

by SenorGato on Jul 1, 2011 8:32 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Not sure I agree with your Francoeur analysis...

Francoeur actually hit somewhat decently in his MLB (.267/.310/.426) and MILB (.285/.332/.480) career. He just didn’t walk at all. Dude’s minor league numbers are ever so slightly better than those for Vitters to this point. Francoeur may struggle with the major league curve, but he didn’t seem to get killed by it in the minors. I don’t think it’s a bad comp at all, considering we haven’t seen Vitters against major league breaking balls.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 12:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Francouer plain K'd

more than Vitters. His problem with breaking balls is well documented too.

by SenorGato on Jul 2, 2011 1:14 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

He didn't K that much more in the minors...

Francoeur’s minor league K rate was 18.5%. Vitters is at 16.0%. Not a drastic difference. Francoeur’s MLB K rate is only 19.0%, so there’s not a drastic difference even if you compare apples to oranges.

I think you’re letting your perception of Francoeur’s MLB career bias your opinion. Yes, he struggles with MLB breaking balls. But he was slightly better than Vitters at every minor league level. And we don’t know if Vitters will keep his K rate down when/if he gets to the MLB, where the breaking balls are MUCH better.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 1:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Francouer put up the following K:BB in the minors:

34:15 (167 PAs) Rk 18
68:30 (567 PAs) Low A 19
84:22 (443) High A/AA 20
76:21 (366) AA 21

Vitters

Not doing 2007 since it’s SSS.

50:13 (292) Low A 18
65:12 (484) Low A/A+
75:30 (439) Rk/A+/AA 20
19/8 (248) AA 21

The similarity is that neither guy takes a walk. The difference is Vitters puts the bat on the ball better.

by SenorGato on Jul 2, 2011 2:36 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Those K rates aren't dramatically different (aside from so far this year)

has been consistently a few percentage points better at making contact. This year (so far) is the first year where the difference has been dramatic. We’ll see if it lasts.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

This year and last year.

Vitters being the one headed in he right direction. I also think we’d have heard by now if he was Francouer bad with breaking stuff.

by SenorGato on Jul 2, 2011 11:06 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Thouh agreed that this year is dramatic difference.

Still to do it at the level Francouer showed signs of being exposed…He struck out 90 times in 443 AA PAs btw 04 and 05.

by SenorGato on Jul 2, 2011 11:12 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Vitters

Vitters would be the only Cub 3rd baseman who could make Gary Scott look like freakin’ Ron Santo.

Can't we go ahead and officially replace Wayne Messmer with Dwight Smith?

by Eric Foster on Jul 1, 2011 10:53 PM CDT reply actions  

Vitters is still more projection than production...

he’s still fairly young for his level, and he has a nice looking swing. But at some point, you have to OPS over .800 at a level if you want to solidify yourself as a major league corner IF. The concerns raised by Sickels are valid – he doesn’t have patience, the power hasn’t yet emerged, he’s not good defensively at 3B and could have to move to 1B or LF (which would make his bat even more questionable).

Obviously he’s young and there’s still loads of time. But at some point, we need to see more than a hot month or two surrounded by mediocrity. Hopefully it happens the rest of this year.

by SouthernCub on Jul 2, 2011 12:28 AM CDT reply actions  

He's young.... some guys figure it all out later....

Just a matter if the Cubs can have the patience to stick with him long enough to see him blossom (if he does).

"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)

Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)

by SackMan on Jul 2, 2011 10:25 AM CDT reply actions  

Vitters

3-6 tonight with 3 RBI, including a bases loaded 2 out, walkoff single. I was there and when he came up I had no doubt he would come through, so much that I actually got the game winner on video.

by Ryno G on Jul 2, 2011 10:57 PM CDT reply actions  

Sweet.

Link to video up yet?

by SenorGato on Jul 3, 2011 3:34 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Thing is..

It’s a very, very terrible video. You can see Vitters swinging and hitting the ball, but you can’t see it rocketed between the first and second basemen. And then the team celebrating. And the I saw another walk off tonight.

by Ryno G on Jul 3, 2011 11:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

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