New report on Aramis Ramirez option
by tomas21 on Jul 17, 2011 8:20 PM CDT
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According to Bruce Levine, Aramis Ramirez's 2012 option does NOT kick in if traded, he merely gets a $1 mil relocation bonus:
"Contrary to what has been widely reported about Ramirez’s contract, there is not an option year that kicks in if he’s traded. Here’s the thumbnail sketch of Ramirez’s contract. He has roughly $7 million left in salary for 2011. He, as well as the Cubs, hold an option for 2012 at $16 million dollars. If the team doesn’t exercise its option, Ramirez is owed $2 million as a buyout. If he’s traded to another team, Ramirez receives a $1 million relocation bonus."
(http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/_/id/5511/five-cubs-most-likely-on-contenders-radar)
If true this is potentially huge news. The only thing that would stand in their way oof moving him is getting him to accept a deal--no small shortcoming considering his...um, motivation issues. However, if he is truely a 3 month rental he immediately joins Carlos Beltran as the only premier position players available on the market, and he plays a more premium position. But what could the Cubs expect?
The Mets are reportedly seeking a top prospect for Beltran. Since Ramiez plays a more in-demand defensive position and the Cubs could conceivably pay his remaining 2011 salary, I'd say their values are at least comparable. That means Hendry could ask for a team's top 5 prospect in return.
Teams in need of a 3rd baseman:
1. Yankees. They lost A-Rod for awhile, and he and Ramirez could play a 3rd base/DH platoon.
Top Yankee prospects include catcher/DH/1B Jesus Montero, 18 year old catcher Gary Sanchez, lefty pitcher Manny Banuelos, righty pitcher Dellin Betances, and near-ready catcher Austin Romine.
Manny Banuelos is a small, hard-throwing lefty starter that could join the rotation anytime. Austin Romine would be a nice partner for Soto, and Betances has near-TOR potential. Any of those 3 would be a nice get for Ramiez. Montero isn't really a fit for us and probably isn't a realistic target, and Sanchez is too far away for a franchise trying to build on the run.
2. Tigers. Top prospects include lefty pitcher Andy Oliver, a-ball 3rd baseman Nick Castellanos, righty starter jacob Turner, CF Daniel Fields, and lefty pitcher Casey Crosby.
Jacob Turner is a stud but he might have too much value.
3. Top prospects include 3b Lonnie Chisenhall, 2b Jason Kipnis, RHP Alex White, LHP Drew Pomeranz, and OF Nick Weglarz.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Still....
We want to move players. But there isn’t a ready-to-go 3B in the Cubs system. 3B prospects, great — three years from now. Who plays 3B? Castro?
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 17, 2011 8:27 PM CDT reply actions
I'd probably go with Ryan Flaherty.
If the Cubs get a blue chipper in return (the system is in need of a TOR potential starter), I’d have no problem with the dropoff in production.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
You could add a player
at second, short or third since Castro could conceivably play any of those 3, and Barney could play second or short. You could also bring Aramis back after the season.
DEJESUS!!!
I hate to say it....
… but they DO have ready third baseman, and his name is Blake DeWitt. It’s his natural position, and he’s pretty good at it.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Problem is.
DeWitt plays third decent — but has a second baseman’s bat.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
To say DeWitt has a second basemen's bat
is an insult to 2nd basemen.
I say ship Ramirez and Marshall to the Yanks for Banuelos or Betances and Romine.
I'm amazed at how Cubs players are sold short because of this season.
Marshall + Ramirez better land all three of those or close to is. Marshall is a very valuable pitcher. Ramirez isn’t ARod, but he’s still one of the best 3B in baseball. The Yankees should always have to overpay in prospects. No reason for the Cubs to be all “Ex-ex-exc-excuse me M-m-m-m-Mr. Yankees sir, can we PLEASE have one top prospect or two pretty good ones for these two really good MLB players? You’re getting a cheap year of Marshall after this on top of getting him for the stretch run.”
I know - Ramirez's remaining half season
isn’t all that valuable ($10 mil maybe?) especially considering that the Yanks won’t get draft picks when he leaves and well, my thoughts on trading Sean Marshall have already been expressed in the Hendry won’t trade Sean Marshall thread.
But I keep forgetting that we can win 85 games next year if we have a $160 million payroll, so we should definitely keep Marshall instead of auditioning our seemingly endless collection of bullpen arms in AAA for a spot in the bullpen. And then of course, we’ll have to use 1/2 – 2/3 of Z’s salary relief that comes off the books after 2012 to resign Marshall and Soto to long-term deals, which will leave us without a starting pitcher. But that’s fine as long as we have a winning record in 2012.
Banuelos is a top 15 prospect right now – Betances isn’t far behind. Both would easily be the best pitching prospects in our organization. If you want something good, you have to give something good.
The Yankees are getting good players.
They even get a very good LH reliever for another year in this theoretical trade. I don’t remember what you said in the Hendry the Terrible is ruining the Cubs version 1000 thread.
Those prospects are prospecting to be in the class of player Ramirez and Marshall are. Who hands the Yankees good players for a song? I’m glad the FO isn’t selling the taker short just because of a bad season.
by SenorGato on Jul 19, 2011 1:04 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
As far as my 2012 vision and the idea that its both
way out of reach and a one year plan is laughable. Laughable at best to be honest. There’s also no denying that it’s waaaaaaaaay better than the "trade a vet talent, sell them cheap, and hope the series of top 5 picks lands us talent to be a cheap AND elite team.
by SenorGato on Jul 19, 2011 1:10 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
As far as my 2012 vision and the idea that its both
way out of reach and a one year plan is laughable. Laughable at best to be honest. There’s also no denying that it’s waaaaaaaaay better than the "trade a vet talent, sell them cheap, and hope the series of top 5 picks lands us talent to be a cheap AND elite team.
by SenorGato on Jul 19, 2011 1:10 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
As far as my 2012 vision and the idea that its both
way out of reach and a one year plan is laughable. Laughable at best to be honest. There’s also no denying that it’s waaaaaaaaay better than the “trade a vet talent, sell them cheap, and hope the series of top 5 picks lands us talent to be a cheap AND elite team.”
by SenorGato on Jul 19, 2011 1:15 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Than trade...
…for one.
Ramirez has been very productive over the years and I respect his talent, but I really think the Cubs have to do something to change their culture and that would include saying bye bye to Ramirez. He has long periods where he looks like he doesn’t give a shit and that ain’t good for young players to be around.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Agree
although Ramirez is having a good year and the options at 3rd base are limited, the Cubs need a complete change of their core, veteran players. They gave us a nice run with 2007 and 2008 but failed to capitalize in the playoffs, and the chemistry has not seemed the same since the 2008 season.
IMO, it seems like Ramirez is a bit selfish and lacks focus at time, making him come off as lazy. Although when he is hot, he can be one of the best hitters in baseball.
If you can move ARam for good prospects
you can live with a stopgap 3B for now and even next year.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 18, 2011 7:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I imagine this is what the Wrigleys said circa 1973 about Ron Santo....
…Remind me again how many years it took for Cubs to find a long term solution at 3B?
It's 106 miles to Chicago...
Not very long, actually
Or it wouldn’t have been, had the Cubs held on to Santo’s immediate successor at 3B, Bill Madlock.
by Jody Jody Davis on Jul 18, 2011 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions
At some point
you have to move on, he won’t be productive forever. If you can get a top prospect for him while your team is rebuilding, you have to do it.
DEJESUS!!!
They have a lot of problems to solve
keeping ARam, a still productive player but one who skills are diminishing, may be a “luxury” the team cannot afford, especially if he brings them players who can fill multiple holes. Clinging to ARam because you fear they will not find a suitable replacement for him soon enough ignores the team’s whole host of other problems. It is not as if keeping ARam will help them become contenders next year.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 19, 2011 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Two problems with your post
1. look up Madlock, Bill , and
2. how many quality seasons did Santo have after the Cubs traded him?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 19, 2011 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions
You left out the Angels...
…… who have third base as really the only position they can upgrade. They’d part with Alberto Callaspo, presently playing decently there, and then who knows among prospects. No way they part with Mike Trout, so think about some others.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Highly doubt they'd give up Kaleb Cowart either...
but it’s worth a try to ask. Tyler Chatwood would be the next name I’d ask.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
Chatwood is going to be a stud
Heck, he’s already there sometimes. If the Cubs got him then Tony Reagins could still get fired even if the Angels won the World Series.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Yeah I'd start with Chatwood...
and then grab a couple of lower level guys. Maybe switch out Jay Jackson for theirs (LHP Trevor Reckling from THE Newark, NJ). There’s also guys like Max Russell, Chris Scholl, and whoever else.
Start with Chatwood seems strong.
For some reason I thought this was Ramirez + Marshall. Chatwood would be sweet for just Ramirez, but maybe out of reach.
id high five jimbo if he got betances or banuelos
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
I still say
Keep him. Having a great year, we have no other option and he has been mikegncb34’s favorite player since 2003.
Yes, I realize that post was straight from the heart.
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
Didn't he say he didn't want to be traded....
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
A dog knows not to bite the hand that feeds him...
or so the monks on the moon say
"A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality." John Lennon
"My favorite food is Macaroni and Cheese, from the blue box." Geovany Soto
Why would he want to leave?
If he wants to win he will go, if not, he will stay where he can do what he wants.
He has 10/5 rights. Period.
All the sarcasm in the world won’t make the facts go away.
by Orval Overall on Jul 18, 2011 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions
TJ, please.
I like some of your insight but when having a discussion, the sacrasm doesn’t come across well EVERY single time.
Like it or not, Aramis Ramirez has been a consistent force for this team for the last 8 years. He does have a reputation of not giving full effort but sometimes it goes alittle too far. This comment is an example of that.
Just please for once, actually engage in a discussion. Just my opinion on it. It just makes more of an adult minded blog.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
by Unique on Jul 18, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Well said
but will fall on deaf ears. TJ is a legend in his own mind.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 18, 2011 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
that's true
Aramis Ramirez has been a consistent force for this team for the last 8 years.
except for last year, and in the playoffs, and when he opted out of his contract after the 06 season to get more money.
by circuitclout on Jul 20, 2011 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Would you have not opted out for more money at your job?
Everyone on the planet (including Hendry) knew he he was going to take that opt out almost the day he signed the original deal. If you don’t expect players to opt out of their deals when given the chance, don’t offer them opt-out clauses.
Ramirez has been very loyal to the Cubs. He’s had several opportunities to go elsewhere and has chosen not to do so. The Cubs have also been very loyal to Ramirez by committing lots of money to him and giving him contract flexibility.
He struggled last year and he struggled in the 2007-2008 playoffs. I’m not sure what the 2006 opt out has to do with his being a consistent force over the past 8 years.
point being
he hasn’t always been a force for good in the cubs organization and he’s not someone that can be counted on because he has proven time and again to be selfish and a bit soft. i’m not saying he’s not a good hitter, he is, but the cubs really have nothing to show for it.
by circuitclout on Jul 21, 2011 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions
That the Cubs have "nothing to show for it" is somehow ARam's fault?
Clearly you don’t like ARam and is clouding your judgement.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 21, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
my judgement is fine
i just choose to not really love aramis ramirez.
by circuitclout on Jul 21, 2011 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions
fine, but blaming him for no title is lame
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 22, 2011 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions
How is this a valid response to what Orval said?
You know, what happened last weekend was inexcusable, but stuff like this adds nothing to the discussion – not even humor.
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 18, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
My thinking is that if he wants to win and every player SHOULD want to win...he will approve a trade.
But I believe he is comfortable here where players are not held accountable for anything.
He's comfortable here because he likes it here.
Not because he doesn’t want to win. Ramirez’s comments when he came from Pittsburgh was that he was glad that he was apart of a team that wanted to win. He obviously wants to win.
The Cubs have serious leadership problems among other things, but Ramirez is not the main problem. Ramirez’s best years were done under a manager who did make players accountable (Lou Pinella) — so that theory isn’t all true.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
TJ ... step back from the computer and think.
Maybe.. just maybe he wants to stay with the Cubs and win. Winning with a team and city that you enjoy isn’t a crime. Nor is losing with that same team.
Maybe.. just maybe he wants to stay with the Cubs and win. Winning with a team and city that you enjoy isn’t a crime. Nor is losing with that same team.This isn’t as simple as switching uniforms. This is a lifestyle change for your family also.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
Woah. Don't know why know it repeated sentences there.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
I think there's alot to be said about retiring with the team you've been on for years.
it has to be hard to spend your last year or two in an unfamiliar place…retiring from baseball must be hard enough.
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Jul 18, 2011 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah.
I think people are not realistic when it comes to Ramirez and his loyality.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
He sure has had a lot
of opt-out clauses in his contracts for a guy with singular loyalty to the team.
DEJESUS!!!
Yep, he should play for peanuts if he's loyal
He obviously hates the Cubs and is trying to drain them of all their money. Jerk….
Not being that loyal ...
and being a jerk aren’t the same thing.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
And I wasn't saying they were....
My point was just because his agent is getting him fair market value (which even his new contract was considered team friendly if you look back) doesn’t mean he isn’t loyal to the Cubs.
Good grief.
This computer at work is strange.
“Woah. Don’t know why it repeated sentences there”
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
While I might not agree with your comment
At least you had some substance here.
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 18, 2011 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Way to change the subject.
In response to Cubbiegoon’s statement that Aramis didn’t want to be traded, your comment was that “The Cubs do whatever the player wants, that is true.” That, quite clearly, was a suggestion that the Cubs had the option of trading him against Aramis’s wishes, but wouldn’t because they do whatever their players want.
My response was that since he’s a 10 and 5 guy, they have no such rights.
Tell me how this idiocy about loafing being approved has anything to do with the above?
by Orval Overall on Jul 19, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Please stop thinking before you post
You’re disturbing the current waters of BCB. :)
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 18, 2011 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
The Yankees won't trade for them
First off, what would they do with him when ARod gets back? Second, hitting isn’t their problem. If they give up one of those prospects, it will be for starting pitching.
The Tigers are a different matter altogether. They very well could be interested.
No way - don't be ridiculous
Tigers have to throw in Max Scherzer and Miguel Cabrera, too.
Bleacher Nation - Cubs Rumors and News
by Brett Taylor on Jul 18, 2011 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
I was being sarcastic and I assume you are too?
Although if it came up, I would trade Ramirez for Verlander in a heartbeat.
I was joking
Times 1,400.
Bleacher Nation - Cubs Rumors and News
by Brett Taylor on Jul 18, 2011 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
considering the DH has been a black hole for them all year
they can stick him at DH, but still allow tex and arod to get days DHing as well
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
by jesus christos on Jul 18, 2011 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions
It's just highly unlikely that he'll accept a deal.
It seems that he doesn’t care to play anywhere else, and if he doesn’t play in Chicago beyond this season, it’s possible he might hang it up, and not play baseball at all.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
I don't know
he gets an extra million dollars if he’s traded. And the Yankees will in all likelihood be playing some meaningful post-season games which, if he wants to sign another contract, will only help his exposure.
DEJESUS!!!
I don't think he'll hang it up.
That might have made sense in early May, when he had seemingly lost all his power. Now, he could get a big payday in the offseason.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Ramirez will be playing somewhere next year...
…Likely in a warm-weather or domed environment, based on his performance the last couple of years, where he seems to have paced himself to avoid injury in early-season bad weather. As far as this season, with incentives I imagine he’ll be happy to waive his rights and go to some AL contender as a three-month hired gun.
"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62
"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64
I don't understand.
Why is it so hard to read a contract and comprehend what it says? Read the damn thing, report it.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
They're not public documents
The media only gets to see them if a club or agent leaks it to them. Otherwise they just have to accept what is in the press release.
by Josh Timmers on Jul 18, 2011 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Right.
Cot’s Baseball Contracts, which is generally considered to be a credible source for this sort of info, had this on A-Ram’s deal:
# 2012 option becomes guaranteed if Ramirez:
* wins one MVP in 2007-11, or
* places 2nd or 3rd in MVP vote twice in 2007-11, or
* wins LCS MVP once in 2007-11, or
* is an All Star 3 times in 2007-11, or
* is traded at any time & Ramirez exercises 2011 option
The last one of those conditions (since he didn’t fill any of the others) is why everyone here was saying teams wouldn’t trade for him because they’d be stuck with him at $16 million for next year. Based on this new report, that apparently isn’t true.
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Well I guess its good he wasn't on the all-star team then...
That would be his 3rd all-star appearance after 07 and 08, correct?
never forget...
1.7%
anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 18, 2011 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I've wondered about that
But I have a hard time believing a guy would give up $16 million to take a vacation with his family. I love my family and all, but…
I suspect that the clause isn’t quite that simple, or is mis-described there by Cot’s (which is not a criticism of Cot’s – clearly Ramirez’s deal has been a tough one to get a clear handle on).
Bleacher Nation - Cubs Rumors and News
by Brett Taylor on Jul 18, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
It wouldn't have triggered it. He was an AS in 2005 and 2008
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
He certainly deserved more AS appearances than he has.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
He probably should have been our representative this year...
He leads all NL 3B in HR, RBI, AVG, SLG, and OPS. You could probably make the case that he’s been among the two best NL 3B in each year except last year.
But aside from that, he’s been among the top 3 3B in every year beside 2010 and 2009 (when he missed half the year but was fantastic when healthy). Chipper Jones and David Wright were a little better some years.
by SouthernCub on Jul 18, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Whoops
I made the same gaffe as Rocker. I had 2007 and 2008 in my head – probably because of the playoffs. He did have a pretty darn good year in 2007.
Bleacher Nation - Cubs Rumors and News
by Brett Taylor on Jul 18, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, you're right.
I thought he was in 07, guess not.
never forget...
1.7%
anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 19, 2011 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
You just...
…read the contract…and tell us what it says. I don’t care who owns the damn piece of paper. Contracts are such an important topic in sports, why the hell wouldn’t the facts be correctly reported?
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
Because they're never seen by the public or the reporter, they report the speculated deal.
It’s correct for the most part, but these dual options and trading clauses get tricky.
Somebody's gotta play third base
Why the hurry to trade Ramirez? The Cubs have no major league ready prospects to replace him. Call me old fashioned, but you need a little power from the infield corner positions, and a DeWitt/Baker platoon might be the most impotent Cub 3Bman since Lenny Randle.
The Cubs have 25-40 million $$$ in expiring contracts after this year (Fuke/Silva/Wood/Grabow/Pena) Of those 5, only Pena might be re-signed.
And remember, the odds that any prospect obtained in a trade would become a productive major leaguer are slim. Prospects usually do not pan out. So don’t fall in love with any names that are floated in a trade for Ramirez.
ARam probably has some productivity left
but the Cubs need to think future and ARam is not part of the future. His best days are past and the Cubs need to look forward and get younger and hopefully more talented. I am not suggesting ARam be dumped, but if he can get moved for good prospects, they would be fools not to do it.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Jul 18, 2011 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions
With A-Ram we're second to last in the league in wins
We can’t get much worse without him, plus we’d get something back in return (and always have the chance to re-sign him next year if he’s still the best option).
by Orval Overall on Jul 18, 2011 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
This is probably the best argument for trading him yet
seriously.
I was in the “keep him” camp on the surface, but the Cubs won’t be good until 2013 anyways. He won’t be a top 8-10 3B in 2 years.
Trade him now and maximize value! I know it’s foreign to us as Cubs fans, but it could happen.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jul 18, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think we can say we should categorically trade him or categorically keep him.
It all really depends on the return. A big enough haul could be enough to ease the pain of a (gulp) Baker/DeWitt platoon in 2012. A small enough haul, well, wouldn’t be enough.
There’s also the matter of him approving a trade. I kinda doubt that Aramis would do that to play for a winner — it doesn’t seem consistent, given what we know about him. However, if another team was willing to give him an extension …
I also just don’t believe that Aramis will hang it up after this year, based on his recent performance.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
by elgato on Jul 18, 2011 9:21 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree that a trade shouldn't be ruled out--
I just don’t particularly trust Hendry to get enough in return. Remember, obtaining a prospect who never contributes at the Major league level is equivalent to obtaining a bag of batting practice balls in a trade. If the Cubs are to trace Ramirez for “prospects”, I would much prefer they be player who are close to being major league ready rather than take a flyer on a Single A maybe. Especially with Hendry making the call.
I think, for Aramis, the best place would be a warm weather city.
For whatever reason he hits so much better during the summer months.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
But he doesn't seem to hit better
when they travel to warm weather cities in April and May. I’d like to see the numbers to change my mind, but it sure doesn’t seem like the weather is the only thing that causes it.
by jerry morales rules on Jul 18, 2011 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
What warm weather cities do they travel to during that time?
Florida, Houston, Atlanta, LA, San Diego, and San Fran, plus the Brewers retractable roof. It would be interesting to see his stats in those parks the first two months of the season.
That would suggest
he needs to work a little harder in the off-season imo. That kind of fits in with the perception cubs fans have long held that he doesn’t care enough, work hard enough or try hard enough. Not saying it is true, but that is a widely held perception.
DEJESUS!!!
My favorite Cub hit .230 before May 1 in his career
And made the Hall of Fame. No one questions his work ethic.
I’m not saying that refutes what you’re saying, but that isn’t a definitive relationship.
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 18, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
did he hit well on the road?
i agree, not a definitive relationship, but in the context of Ramirez’s reputation, and the fact that he hits poorly in warm weather early in the season, it’s fair to question whether he is doing everything he needs to do in the offseason to be ready to go April 1.
DEJESUS!!!
On the road in April, or overall?
The player I’m referring to, of course, is Sandberg. I don’t know that it was weather-related.
by Shanghai Badger on Jul 18, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Rec'd
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jul 18, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Pirates are a good target and are willing to trade prospects
We could trade hem Ramirez and Pena if they really wanted them.
Angels are in on Rami
That article is confusing…he’s still adamant that he’s not going to accept a trade but might be willing to do so in August? What the hell? And he’d want the team picking him up to agree to waive his option for next year?
Did I just slip into some alternate reality?
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 18, 2011 5:19 PM CDT reply actions
It's all "he said, she said"
Derrek Lee was more aggressive with his “I won’t accept any trades” talk and he left.
At 5 PM on July 31 and Aramis is still on the Cubs, I’ll believe that he won’t accept a trade. Until then, he’s a possibility.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jul 18, 2011 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I saw something
in another article that said he had some family stuff that made a mid-August move better for him. I’m guessing he could be talked into a deadline deal if he’s willing to take a mid-August deal, if he’s properly incentivized.
Jean Segura would be a nice headliner to a deal with the Angels http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=segura001jea He’s crazy fast and could play second or short, with Castro moving to third. He’s pretty much MLb ready, and would dramatically increase our team speed—he stole 50 bases last year.
Luis Jimenez is a third baseman having a nice season in AA. http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jimene006lui He wasn’t considered a top prospect going into the season, so the Cubs may be able to pry him and a higher-rated pitching prospect in a deal.
Garrett Richards is a starting pitcher from their AA club, and is lights out this year. http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=richar001gar
The above prospects would be great adds to our system. The Angels are notoriously reluctant to offer prospects is a deal (they pretty much kept Brandon Wood until his value fizzled to nothing) so between that and Ramirez’ reluctance to take a deal anthing is a long-shot.
DEJESUS!!!
Yeah I can't remember the last time the Angels gave up strong prospects in a trade.
The Tigers would be my preference. If the Cubs could somehow get Castellanos by kicking in cash w Rami, I’d be on cloud nine.
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 18, 2011 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Bruce Levine
That’s why Bruce is the best. For one thing he blew up the repeated lie by other media members that Hendry screwed the pooch because of the NTC meaning they can’t move him.
The rest of the media is completely clueless since he is a 10/5 guy.
Same thing with Dempster by the way. Any NTC is a moot point.
Nothing happens unless it's first a dream
I don't think
you understand what the misunderstanding was about Ramirez’s option, and most people think Bruce Miles, not Bruce Levine, is the best.
DEJESUS!!!
He/she is correct about the NTC stuff though (although that's mostly the fans' mistakes)...
Dempster and Ramirez had 10/5 NTC rights anyway, so the NTC is irrelevant. I believe that’ll be true for Zambrano and Soriano after this year (Soriano wasn’t realistically tradable prior to now anyway given the length of his contract). The only guys with NTCs that matter are Fukudome and Samardzija, and those were necessities in order to get them to sign in the first place (Fukudome because he was a prized free agent and Samardzija because he could have chosen football).
right
this post just isn’t about a NTC, it’s about the 2012 vesting option in event of a trade. (I think you understand that)
DEJESUS!!!
Meant
Meant on radio,
I was actually pointing out in addition to this Bruce is the only one not repeating the lie about the NTC.
He’d have it anyway in effect since he’s 10/5.
Nothing happens unless it's first a dream
I still think
you don’t understand what this post is about.
DEJESUS!!!
Family situation
I have heard from a good source there is a situation that Aramis would rather not talk about. It’s not horrible it’s just his personal business. And frankly the only people who’s business it is is Aramis and his family.
Nothing happens unless it's first a dream
For anyone who lives in Chicago and hears the Sox news
Is there any feeling the Sox would be interested in Rami? Their rookie 3b isn’t doing much and he wasn’t playing that great in the minors. Cubs might be able to leverage that into swapping bad contracts (Dunn for Soriano anyone?) and maybe a reliver like Infante depending on how much cash they sent over. Total speculation of course, but I’m surprised I haven’t heard the Sox as an interested team.
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 21, 2011 3:47 AM CDT reply actions
Dunn for Soriano?
As mediocre as Soriano has been, that would be a ridiculously bad deal for the Cubs.
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Perhaps for this season
But I’ll bet Dunn is better over the remainder of the deal. Dunn is cheaper over that deal: 14/15/15 as opposed to 18/18/18. Also, it sounds like Dunn may be considering retiring which would wipe the money off the books early. Dunn is 31, Sori is supposedly 35. Dunn can play first or the outfield (poorly). Sori can only play the outfield (poorly).
Dunn will be back; he’s been underperforming this year (maybe getting used to DHing?) while at the same time suffering through a BABIP of about 90 points below where he was the past two years. He’s slugging 200 points below where it was the last two years. His wOBA is 100 points off his career norm and where he was the last two years. Guys who are as consistent as him don’t just lose it (at least not normally). When he’s back he’ll be the same lefty slugger that he’s always been.
I doubt the deal gets done or is ever even discussed, but I’d happily swap those two.
Any idea if the White Sox kicked the tires on Rami?
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 21, 2011 7:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Adam Dunn epitomizes old player skills.
by SenorGato on Jul 21, 2011 10:10 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
So you'd take Soriano from here on out?
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 21, 2011 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Over Dunn?
Eeerrday.
Dunn’s got the kind of skillset that can decline fast, and it doesn’t make his case any stronger that the only place he’d fit here is 1B.
I heard that skillset refrain a lot in october about Berkman
only time will tell on Dunn.
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 21, 2011 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Berkman isn't a...
3 outcomes type hitter with limited defensive ability. He’s a former pretty decent RFer who hit for average, power, took walks, and didn’t K. So yeah…we’re talking completely different skillsets.
Berkman was coming off of an injury
Dunn is coming off being lazy and not preparing himself for baseball in the offseason—admittedly too.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Jul 22, 2011 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps
but that’s a different thing happening than a skillset deteriorating as the result of being in your early 30s.
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 22, 2011 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions
A better question would be
Would you have traded Soriano for Dunn before this season started?
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 21, 2011 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Not really a fair question as you knew Dunn was a FA after 2010.
Unless you mean we had to assume the 2011-2014 salary? In which case, of course I would have, and so would 99% of the people here.
Why?
He’d clog up 1B, where two hitters both younger and better than him would be hitting FA in 2011/2012. He’s got a fun skillset offensively, but it’s a skillset that traditionally includes steep declines. He’s expensive. He’s not particularly tradeable. More of a DH than a position player now…Yeah, going to the AL is and was probably the best for him.
You don't think Dunn can still play OF?
when I say that, my standard is admittedly low—he’d need to play it as well as Sori does over the next 3 years to not carry negative defensive value. Given Sori’s age and quickly deteriorating wheels I think any dropoff to Dunn defensively would be more than made up for offensively. Especially because Dunn would provide insurance at first base where it is badly needed (there really aren’t any guarantees the Cubs get one of the big two).
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 21, 2011 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think Dunn can play 1B all that well...
let alone the OF.
neither of them could ever play the OF
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
by jesus christos on Jul 21, 2011 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I meant it in the sense of before Dunn's bad season began
And if you could get rid of Soriano as well.
For me, asking about trading Dunn for Soriano now is too one-sided due to Dunn’s awful year to date.
It’s a better question for me to consider Dunn before the season started and dangle No-Soriano as the bait.
"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver
by RiskyBusiness on Jul 21, 2011 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
The thing about Dunn even before the season was that...
players with his 3-outcome offensive skillset and limited defensive anything usually don’t age well. I think that’s why he ended up with an AL team at 31. He’s not even pretend athletic anymore…
who would you say his comparable is?
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 21, 2011 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Off the top of my head easily Dave Kingman.
Kingman with more walks…Kingman also started falling off around Dunn’s age and put up one season with an OPS over .800 after turning 31.
Dunn was one of the best non-signings an NL team could have made. The DH and Comiskey will add a couple years to his shelf life, but otherwise…
What?
Considering Kingman played 16 seasons and only ever had 4 seasons with an OPS over .800, I don’t see what that’s supposed to mean. Dunn is quite different…he’s never had one under .800.
Kingman recorded the best OBP of his career at .343 (career .302). Dunn has never posted a season OBP below .356 (career .376). Pretty poor comparison. Keep reaching for something.
Time will tell.
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 22, 2011 4:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Right.
Kingman rarely walked — if he had, he’d have been a much better player.
Dunn may be… done. We’ll see.
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Lets see...
- Both tall, heavy players for their day.
- Both LF/1B who look like they’ll finish up their careers as DHs.
- Both consistently are amongst the league leader in K’s.
- Both consistently hit with a great deal of power.
- Both consistently put up mediocre or worse batting averages.
So yeah…the statistical difference is in the walk rate, but otherwise they’re remarkably similar. The walks do make Dunn a more valuable offensive player in the grand scheme of things, and along with the DH and Comiskey it could/should add a couple years to his shelf life, but overall NL teams, including the Cubs, dodged a bullet by not signing him.
The only real difference is the BB rate.
Kingman and Dunn have almost identical ISO, BA, and SLG.
That's a very significant difference
if you’re trying to equate skill-sets. A large part of the value is tied to the walks. If the skill-sets were the same, noone would care that a prospect like Vitters doesn’t walk.
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 22, 2011 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course it's significant, but to say they aren't similar at all isn't correct either.
I’d argue they’re more similar than different, however I’m not arguing value overall.
The claim was made that Dunn was a 3 true outcome guy
And then Kingman was offered as a comparable to show how 3 true outcomes guys have skill sets that deteriorate after 31.
Kingman isn’t a 3-true outcome guy. He’s a guy that had Dunn’s power and k’s, but had neither Dunn’s approach at the plate nor Dunn’s consistency. I’m not saying they’re not at all similar; I’m saying they don’t have the same skillsets.
Drawing conclusions from a player who does some things the same as Dunn but who, I think we can agree, doesn’t have Dunn’s skillset isn’t likely to yield reliable results.
If we’re just going by players having fairly similar numbers, why isn’t Soriano being compared with Kingman as well? They have very similar walk rates, strikeout rates, and ISOs. If Kingman’s skillset is the type that doesn’t age well, shouldn’t we be especially worried by Soriano who is much older than Dunn?
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 23, 2011 3:36 AM CDT up reply actions
I can't believe there is a Kingman/Dunn comparison here.
Kingman’s lifetime OBA was .302. His career high in walks was 62.
Dunn’s lifetime OBA — even with his horrific year this year — is .376. He has never walked fewer than 77 times in a season — and that’s in a year he missed 45 games. He’ll walk more than 62 times this year (he’s on pace for about 75) even with the bad year he’s having.
The two are not remotely comparable.
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Youre using one thing
to show how they’re not remotely comparable. Yet, theyre remarkably similar in multiple other ways…which you conveniently choose to ignore.
by SenorGato on Jul 23, 2011 3:01 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
you post a lot
on a baseball site for someone that doesn’t seem to know much of anything about baseball. the other ways in which they are “remarkably similar” are all coincidental. yes, some of their physical traits and results are the same but their skill sets and approach at the plate couldn’t be more different.
i have brown hair, a beard, piercing blue eyes and i’m the son of a carpenter but that doesn’t make me remarkably similar to jesus christ.
by circuitclout on Jul 23, 2011 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
The only thing different in their skillset
offensively (hell, defensively) is the walk rate. Otherwise neither hit for average, both K’d a ton, and both hit alot of HRs.
The fact that Dunn does walk more should extend his shelf life a couple years, but otherwise I expect he’ll be done by 34-35. Kingman was pretty much done by 31, though I think he lasted in the league until his mid-30’s or so.
Coincidental similarities are still similarities.
no
Coincidental similarities are still similarities.
they are coincidences.
by circuitclout on Jul 23, 2011 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions
no worries then
because alfonso soriano is similar to willie stargell, and carlos pena is basically identical to reggie jackson.
by circuitclout on Jul 23, 2011 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Are we not especially worried by Soriano?
Even then, he’s waaaaaaaay more of an athlete than Dunn. Soriano is a guy who used to be able to steal 30 bases in the majors…a guy who got moved from 2B to CF to LF…not that speaks well of his defense but it does speak of his ahleticism.
by SenorGato on Jul 23, 2011 3:05 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
You make a lot of unwarranted statements.
Kingman is not a 3 true outcomes player. Aside from the fact that you think so, what evidence do you have that Kingman’s career has predictive value for Dunn’s career?
What is your basis for implying that a large difference in walk rates isn’t something that means completely different skillsets?
Do you think players need to have the same skillsets in order to use a career trend of one to predict the career path of another player?
On what basis does the fact that Soriano used to steal bases mean that he’s still athletic?
"Playoffs?!" -Jim Mora
by Castro Por Presidente on Jul 24, 2011 4:32 AM CDT up reply actions
You're arguing with someone who doesn't get it.
I’d suggest you not bother.
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by Al Yellon on Jul 24, 2011 6:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Vitters doesn't strike out either.
Also, as lugz said, they’re similar in a whole bunch of ways while only really separated by walk rate.
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