"Growing sense that Pena could return next year"
Whoa. Witenmeyer doesn't cite sources or say anything definitive here, but states there is a "growing sense" that Cubs could hang on to Pena after this season if the price is right.
Something is not adding up here. If you are going to hang on to Marshall, Baker, etc with the hopes of loading up next year in free agency for a shot at respectability--well, I don't necessarily agree with the plan, but at least it's based in some amount of logic.
And if you are going to retool over a couple years with the hopes of building a great group of young talent through trades, the draft, etc, then loading up with some key free agents in a couple years when your young guys have matured, then I could see keeping Pena as a bridge.
But bringing Pena back AND not selling off some assets, such as Marshall and Baker, that could bring back a significant piece (and won't be around in a year or two)--THAT is not a plan based on logic. That makes me shudder to think that Hendry has truly sold Ricketts on the idea that this team is good enough, we're really only 20 games under because of injuries and bad luck.
Usually when you are this bad, at least you have hope that drastic changes will be made. We could be in a horrifying state of inexplicable contentedness with this train wreck of a team.
10 months ago
tomas21
178 comments
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Comments
If people.......
….. thought Wittenmeyer’s article on saving Hendry was garbage, why give credence to this unsourced bit?
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
Wittenmyer...
… has been known to make stuff up before.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
He just said a 'growing sense'.
Even if he’s wrong, he’s not really going out on a limb.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I really think...
…Phil Rogers is his mentor.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Pena would need to be a "plan C"
If we don’t get a great option at 1B in free agency, he’s better than anything else we’ll have in the short-term. I would not be pleased if we were to commit to Pena rather than pursuing the better targets, but I could see him being the fallback plan (if he’s not traded this year).
I wouldn’t read too much into anything these guys write though. It’s almost entirely unsubstantiated speculation.
Thirded
I would think Pena would be the “if all else fails” option.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Also agree.
I’m fine with trading Pena. I’m fine with resigning Pena, if they can’t land Fielder (I don’t even really entertain the notion of Pujols).
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Plan C because he is the third best first basemen on the FA market.
Wonder how many years they would have to sig him for. Hopefully 3 max.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Jul 24, 2011 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't mind Pena coming back for another year.
Does anybody like the idea of bringing in Jason Kubel to play RF? Completely revamp the outfield with Jackson in CF, Kubel in RF, and move Byrd over to LF.
17'$ h4pp3n1n9!?!?!?
Kubel is pretty below average defensively in the outfield
He’s a solid hitter and all, but I think he’s best suited for the AL.
by Mulhollandmania on Jul 24, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Basically, this free agent group sucks except for a few big names.
The only outfielder I might look at is Nick Swisher, but he can be a clubhouse cancer from what I’ve heard.
17'$ h4pp3n1n9!?!?!?
by lexmarklover on Jul 24, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Where have you heard this?
I’ve heard he’s one of the nicest guys in baseball. And from interviews he’s come off that way and seemed very humble as well.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
by DTJchris on Jul 24, 2011 12:40 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
During his time with the White Sox, Ozzie and Kenny weren't fond of him and neither were the beat writers.
17'$ h4pp3n1n9!?!?!?
by lexmarklover on Jul 24, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Ozzie and Kenny don't like him = clubhouse cancer?
http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/108156-nick-swisher-a-thank-you-from-a-chicago-fan
http://goodguysports.wordpress.com/2011/07/14/nick-swisher-much-more-than-just-a-yankee-star/
Buy everything I’ve ever heard or read about Swisher is that he’s generally considered one of the nicest guys in baseball and that he truly works hard for his charities when he’s not playing baseball. It sort of irks me when what seems to be one of the genuinely good guys in baseball gets labeled negatively even on a blog such as this
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
by DTJchris on Jul 24, 2011 1:08 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The problem I have with it is...
if he comes back…it won’t be for just 1 year.
As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.
by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 24, 2011 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Hate to say it...
…but I’ve been predicting that they’ll bring Pena back for a couple of months now, I’d love to be wrong but I just don’t see this organization going on another spending spree immediately after they’ve jettisoned the remains of the last one.
Of course, considering the Cubs’ success when it comes to signing big ticket free agents, maybe that’s not necessarily a bad thing.
Still, it’s beyond frustrating to even consider that their master plan is to simply maintain the status quo.
I think Pena
will be traded at the deadline and Brian LaHair will be the Cubs first baseman for the rest of the season.
How can you have a growing sense but you don't cite one source?
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
by Unique on Jul 24, 2011 11:22 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
He might be hearing things from people
who have connections but don’t want to be quoted directly.
Or he might be making up stuff. Hard to tell.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
If that's the case
then the article says something like “Sources with knowledge of the Cubs’ plans say that while nothing has been decided, there is a growing sense that Pena could return next year.”
That reveals nothing about who the sources are, but makes clear that this “sense” is growing in more minds than just Gordo, his cat, and the potted plant in the corner.
This is just made up drivel that should be ignored.
by Orval Overall on Jul 24, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh, absolutely
it could be that. Just when I give Gordo some grudging credit (for his Hendry piece the other day), he comes out with something like this.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Source
‘‘We’ve got a ways to go, but maybe he’s better than advertised,’’ said Quade, who was asked about the challenge of replacing him. ‘‘And maybe he’s not going to have to be replaced. That decision’s a long way off.’’
Quade is not a source?
The "growing sense" isn't any bigger than the sense after spring training.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
You guys are amazing
with the extreme lengths you will go to to parse something that you don’t particularly like.
All Gordo has done here is to identify that there is a possibility that Pena could be brought back next year. This is in the context of the “conventional wisdom” that says he won’t be, and that it is a foregone conclusion that the Cubs will target a 1st baseman in the free agent market.
He isn’t reporting that the Cubs are planning to bring Pena back, he is just saying that there is a sense that they could bring him back, and the quote from Quade supports that.
You have no idea what I do or what I don't like.
I asked one simple question about his speculation: what “growing” sense is he speaking from? Pena has done well this year and should be considered an option but when in the hell was he NOT an option?
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
In the first place
I wasn’t talking about you, I specifically referenced BCB in general, and secondly I wasn’t talking just about this, I was talking about stories in general that don’t fit the unique BCB form of denial.
I could name dozens of instances when news stories on here were parsed and rejected as unworthy for this or that reason, and then turned out to be 100% on the money.
Anybody with half a brain can read this story and get the exact intended meaning out of it. Only BCB kool aid drinkers would feel the need to try to discredit the author with charges that no source is given, when in fact a source clearly is given.
When I clicked on the title of the thread I thought the "source"
was going to be someone other than Mike Quade. And I assumed the growing sense would be something alittle more concrete. That’s just my opinion.
However, I do agree that alot here throw writers under the bus just because they don’t like him/her. But in this instance, I felt like this story — is pretty much a non-story in regards of anything new.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
And to go futher with that...
what else is Mike Quade supposed to say? “Well Carlos has been ok this year, but we are looking to upgrade in the offseason”?
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
No
If the organization had made up it’s mind not to bring Pena back (which clearly they have not) Quade wouldn’t have said “Maybe he won’t have to be replaced”.
He simply could’ve have said the normal cliche about how “at the end of the season we will evaluate everybody and see where we can improve the ballclub.”
To me that's just reads they are keeping door open just like they've been doing all season.
Which they should, because Pujols and Fielder aren’t promised to come here.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
That's right
so then, why do posters on here jump on this with charges that Gordo has been known to “make things up”, writes stories without citing sources, etc? It makes no sense.
Anybody that thinks the Cubs wouldn’t look at bringing Pena back as an option is just kidding themselves. It would be imprudent not to, as you say.
I can easily imagine a conversation between Hendry and Ricketts where Jim outlines what he thinks it will take to sign either Pujols or Fielder, and Tom’s response is, “you have Boras’ number? Let’s see how much he wants to bring Pena back next year.”
My misunderstanding then, I guess.
I responded the way I did, because I thought the article was going to have more substance than it did.
I have no problem with Pena returning, if Pujols/Fielder are no longer avaliable (or out of price range).
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
He's a source for the perfectly vague statement you quote.
That isn’t a “growing sense” of anything. Gordo’s story implies that people with knowledge are becoming increasingly convinced that the Cubs view this as a serious option. Nothing Quade said supports that. And since the “growing sense” isn’t attributed to any person, or class of people – Cubs FO types; rival executives; agents; anyone at all – its just a b.s. statement that is code for “I have no source at all.”
Put differently, there’s a big difference between whether there’s a “growing sense” among the residents of a nursing home, or residents of the Ricketts home. If Gordo had a source, he would have mentioned it even in non-specific terms. Most newspapers in fact require that practice as a matter of journalistic standards when such a source does in fact exist. When you see a statement like he wrote, it means its just idle speculation by the author, not his sources.
by Orval Overall on Jul 24, 2011 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Wittenmyer story
implies no such thing.
The statement you have posted above about what Gordo wrote proves that you are incapable of understanding plain English.
All that “increasingly convinced” and “serious option” nonsense is completely made up by you and nothing in the story says or implies anything like that.
All the story says is, “If you think there is no chance Pena comes back in 2012, there is reason to think otherwise”, and Quade’s quote says exactly that. No idle speculation, it is right there in black and white.
You guys are a hoot. What a bunch of knuckleheads.
Dude, chill out.
You’re more than entitled to your own opinions. But must you routinely insult those who disagree with you?
FWIW, I kind of agree with your larger point. But chill on the rhetoric, huh?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
by elgato on Jul 24, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not sure where you're getting that.
The story says: “There is a growing sense that Pena could return next year”
The comments I made above fit with the plain meaning of that statement. If you want to define it narrowly to mean only what you’ve said above, then sure, you can say that’s sourced to Quade but its also entirely meaningless. This thread has been about whether or not people believe the plain interpretation of Wittenmeyer’s statement, with most of us saying we don’t.
by Orval Overall on Jul 24, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Ay yi yi
The statement you have posted above about what Gordo wrote proves that you are incapable of understanding plain English.
"When they signed Fukudome, I knew they were trying to get me fired". - Ron Santo, January, 2008
fortunately, since I don't read English, the insult was entirely lost on me.
by Orval Overall on Jul 24, 2011 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Then how would you know it was an insult??? HMMM?
My sources say there is “growing speculation” you DO in fact speak and understand the English language.
You want an on the record statement from a rival executive or an agent as to the Cubs plans for next season?
Its probably an impression from dozens if not more conversations. Expecting him to record all of them and provide a thesis is not realistic.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
its perfectly realistic for a reporter to attribute beliefs to discussions with a number of front office types
I’m not saying “on the record attribution.” I’m saying the absolute weakest of all attributions, the anonymous group of “baseball insiders” or however you want to phrase it. You will find such attribution (or higher) in almost every reputable story published in a major newspaper. That Wittenmeyer can’t even do that much speaks volumes about what this growing sense is based on. (Hint: it’s thin, and you’re breathing it right now).
by Orval Overall on Jul 24, 2011 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem with this is
that everyone other than the Ricketts family are likely to be gone next season. So who really cares if Jim Hendry wants to bring Pena back? He’s not coming back.
Having said that, I really like Carlos Pena as a person and a ballplayer. I just don’t think he’s the right guy for the Cubs first base job next season.
How do you know he's not coming back for sure?
I’m sorry, I just won’t believe it until I see it.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
I don't know anything for sure
But I think it’s silly to presume he’ll be back. And this article assumes he will be.
by Josh Timmers on Jul 24, 2011 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Why is it silly? Here's the options...
A) Pujols – not a chance
B) Fielder – TOO much for TOO long
C) Pena – Best of the Rest
D) Nobody Else – Speaks for Itself
With the 1st pick in the 2012 Baseball Amateur Draft, the Chicago Cubs select...
They MUST go for Fielder, even if they overpay IMO.
They need a franchise player, and they need one now. They need a fearful middle of the order hitter. They need someone other than Castro and Garza. Fielder is a great place to start.
never forget...
1.7%
anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 24, 2011 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions
You misunderstood me
It’s silly to assume Hendry will be back.
by Josh Timmers on Jul 24, 2011 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
unless the plan is to go young for a couple years, then spend some serious dough in 2-3 years when the young guys are reaching their potential (kind of like what the Brewers did with the Fielder-Weeks-Braun-Hart-Gallardo nucleus.
If that’s the plan, I don’t have a problem with it, and I don’t have an issue with Pena being on board in the interim. But if it is, let’s jump in feet first and turn some players who aren’t part of that plan (ie Baker, Marshall, Ramirez, etc) into people who are.
DEJESUS!!!
Makes no difference if Hendry is gone or not
no matter who the GM is, he will have to consider bringing Pena back.
As you say, Ricketts will still be there and he is the one who would have to sign off on a Fielder or Pujols contract, and it is no slam dunk that will happen.
And there's no slam dunk
that Pujols or Fielder would even want to sign with the Cubs. But Pena is going to want a multi-year deal and the Cubs won’t likely give him one.
Nnone of that feeds into a “growing sense that Pena will be back.” The point is that all these decisions are going to be affected by things that happen in the off-season. Nothing that really happens now is going to have much impact on that.
by Josh Timmers on Jul 24, 2011 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
There's another possibility.
Let’s assume the Cubs aren’t going after Pujols, and let’s assume they figure that Fielder (as good as he is) has a body that won’t age well/won’t have the cache with fans that he would need to have to make him worth what he wants as a FA — at least, not worth it to the Cubs in the immediate future.
It might make more sense for the Cubs to re-up Pena, bring back Ramirez and spend whatever money’s left on pitching.
If the Cubs added a CJ Wilson to the rotation, they’d be pretty strong with Wilson, Garza, Zambrano, Dempster. The bullpen could be OK if Marmol returns to form and/or Cashner and Carpenter join the ranks of Marshall and Russell. That would pretty much set the Cubs up well with pitching, and bringing back Pena and Ramirez would make the infield fairly solid.
That really the outfield as the wild card.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
That's an interesting thought
I think the season has shown that pitching might be the Cubs’ weakest point right now. I wouldn’t have thought that to be the case back in March.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Pitching and OF are both too weak for that to be the fix.
I agree to the extent that you can get by with an infield of Pena, Barney, Castro and Ramirez with Soto behind the plate. Its not great, but its not terrible either. But if you go that route, then you can’t have the absolute duds we now have at our corner OF spots. I know Dome is gone, but I don’t see an upgrade on the horizon; and Soriano will either be dead payroll space or an anchor in our lineup for 3 years to come.
I know I’m stating the obvious, but the CJ Wilson signing and bringing everyone back doesn’t do it for me. You either address the OF – a tough task with this FA group – or you make it less relevant by anchoring the offense behind Pujols/Fielder.
by Orval Overall on Jul 24, 2011 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
If the Cubs sign Fielder,
A lot of the other stuff can fall into place.
Parting with Soriano would help, at this point.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
That's possible.
But I doubt it. I fear signing Fielder would have a Dawson-1987 effect.
The problem is that signing Fielder and providing him with a good supporting cast — re-upping Aramis, basically — is going to cost a lot of money and could prevent the Cubs from doing things like improving the rotation.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
It could
If you can dump enough salary this offseason, however, it could be done. (Hence the Soriano thing, although I realize the Cubs will have to pick up a significant part of the tab.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the Cubs really need to try to move Byrd.
Nothing against Marlon, but saving $6.5 million and freeing up centerfield for Brett Jackson seems pretty doable.
I don’t see Soriano going anywhere, unless he gets ridiculously hot this week.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Who do you have in mind for right?
Colvin? FA?
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
FA or trade.
It’s hard to speculate when you don’t know who will be here and what spots will be open.
FWIW, Colvin seems to be playing better, and Bruce Levine figures he’ll be back in August. If there was a way to put Colvin in left or right, Jackson in center and a good middle order bat in whatever corner Colvin isn’t playing …
Hell, re-sign Johnson as an insurance policy for Jackson and/or a platoon partner for Colvin …
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I'm just growing a bit concerned with how big the budget is going to be.
I’m not Tom’s accountant, but Wilson and Fielder are going to be a combined 40 million or so. I like Jackson’s potential, but I doubt he’s going to step in and be a world beater, and him plus Colvin plus a 5 million dollar bat isn’t a very good outfield. Hopefully the new GM (crosses fingers) can swing a deal.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
That's kind of why I think Pena's return is possible.
Re-signing Pena (2 years, $20 million?) and Ramirez (3 years, $30 million?), getting a CJ Wilson to anchor the rotation (5 years, $85 million?) and signing a corner outfielder with some pop could be doable. But freeing up money from the Soriano or Byrd contracts would be very important because of all the guys set for raises in 2012 (Marmol, Marshall, Z, Dempster, Garza, Soto). The $5-$6 million saved from Byrd/Soriano in 2012 could be huge in making this happen.
I guess I’m saying Ramirez/Pena/Wilson/corner OF could be better than Ramirez/Fielder/No. 3 starter.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
colvin still has the plate discipline of a 4 year old
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
by jesus christos on Jul 24, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you basing that on how he's done in Iowa, or before he went down?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
That's just Colvin in general.
His OBP this month is 244. Just my opinion, but I don’t see him ever walking enough to be a full time player.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
I can't wait for a GM ...
who impresses patience on players in the minor leagues and focuses on drafting patient players.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Well, yeah.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Or just a guy who doesn't shun modern stats in general.
As has been reported multiple times.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
I agree - that's why I'm saying if you go the Pena route
which presumably exlcudes Fielder/Pujols, then you wouldn’t have enough offense in my view to compete without a total, and probably unrealistic, overhaul of the OF. Fielder or Pujols can carry an offense a lot better than Pena can.
by Orval Overall on Jul 24, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I think
replacing Fukudome with Brett Jackson and putting CJ Wilson in the rotation is WAY too little of an improvement to expect any kind of legitimate chance of contention. Don’t get me wrong, CJ Wilson is a nice pitcher, but he’s nowhere near enough to bring an otherwise essentially unchanged team back from 90 losses.
I think CJ Wilson is part of the solution, but unless the other part if Fielder, Pujols, or a comparable bat at another position, there isn’t much hope for next year.
To me, bringing back Pena is essentially writing off 2012, because there aren’t enough impact players around at other positions to make this team into a contender. And the thought of writing off 2012 in July of 2011 is really depressing.
DEJESUS!!!
this was meant
as a response to elgato
DEJESUS!!!
See below.
I agree with you. My original comment wasn’t intended as a complete list of what needs to happen.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I agree
That writing of 2012 in July 2011 is really depressing, but I’ve also accepted it as reality.
Notice I didn't really address the outfield.
I agree with what you’re saying. I think the Cubs need to trade Byrd and save $6.5 million. That way, they can free up the position for Brett Jackson and maybe have enough money to spend on another outfielder AND on CJ Wilson.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
which outfielder is gonna be better than Byrd for 6.5 million
He is a decent hitter and plays all 3 outfield positions well, hustles, and is a good club house guy.
if by decent you mean extremely mediocre
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
by jesus christos on Jul 24, 2011 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions
4.3 WAR last year is better than mediocre
and you won’t find anyone better for the price
That WAR was based primarily on his defensive value...
As a hitter, he really was just mediocre for an OF (.343 wOBA, 106 wRC+).
I’m not disagreeing that Byrd is a decent value financially. Just that JC’s point is not inaccurate – Byrd is a mediocre hitter.
Ya i don't like the word mediocre.
And saying “extremely mediocre” just sounds dickish. When i say decent i mean slightly above average.
I'd still have Cashner in the rotation.
But if Pena is starting firstbasemen next year, I’ll be severely severely disappointed. I’ll already see it as a lost season before we even play one game..that would blow..
A lot comes down to what the Cubs can do with Byrd/Soriano.
If they can dump one of them at the deadline and save some money, then they can free up money/a roster spot to improve the lineup. Even saving Byrd’s $6.5 million next year could mean a lot.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Might as well stick Byrd in RF next year.
Have you seen the list of potential OF FA’s? There really isn’t much there at all, and I’m guessing the Yankees pick up the option on Swisher.
Fact after about ten or so impact players that are FA’s next year, everyone else seems to be a roll of the dice.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Jul 24, 2011 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
If Colvin can figure it out again.
Our outfield won’t be too bad with him in right.
never forget...
1.7%
anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 24, 2011 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
He needs to learn to take a pitch...
On that front, he’s never “figured it out.” Pitchers are figuring out that he’ll swing at anything and walks are as rare as can be for him. I don’t think his bad start was a fluke, I think he needs a complete overhaul at the plate in order to be even an okay 4th OFer
Yeah, because the 100 at-bats this year outweigh his 400 last year.
never forget...
1.7%
anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 24, 2011 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions
his plate discipline was equally crappy last year
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
by jesus christos on Jul 24, 2011 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree, but you can't ignore any 24 year old that slugs 500. It's not like our outfielders are producing anyway.
never forget...
1.7%
anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 25, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
he wont come anywhere close to .500 if doesnt learn how to take a pitch and make contact
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
by jesus christos on Jul 25, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
This ... again.
The way baseball works is when a batter first comes up they have the advantage. Pitchers need to make the adjustments to them. Once that happens, it’s required that the batter make adjustments and so on.
It seems we discovered Colvin can hit the hell out of a fastball in the zone, but also tries to hit the hell out of fastballs out of the zone… and misses. He Ks too much and walks to little, and he swings at everything in sight. He wont sniff a .500 SLG, or even a .400 SLG if he doesn’t adjust and learn how to take pitches, which he still isn’t doing well in AAA.
I know the dude can hit a ball, I’d much rather see a game where he goes 1-2 with 3 BB than a game that he hits for the cycle in. It’s sounds stupid, but it’s development and THAT is what he needs to work on.
Recent reports of his inability to hit a curveball in the PCL are pretty discouraging
He will face a steady diet of breaking stuff in the majors. If he can’t adjust, he won’t make it.
Starting pitching is a definite weakness, but the team needs to score more runs more consistently, too
If they bring back Pena, there needs to be a plan to add more offense from the OF positions to make a substantial improvement next year.
I still think the team is looking at a multi-year rebuild to be a true contender. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be looking at free agents this offseason, but they need to make sure the signings are consistent with building a contender in 2013 and beyond.
Newsflash -
Hate to break it to everyone, but the Cubs are going to suck next year too…. too many of the same faces, just a little more grey in their beards. The downward swing has at least another year in it before they can start building back up with the young core.
So, it doesn’t really matter if “Ramzy” or “Carly” come back. The Cubs aren’t getting Pujols or Fielder, and even if they did, it might make a difference of a game or two. The team is a fourth place squad – third if everything comes together perfectly.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
by Ross on Jul 24, 2011 1:39 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
And here I'm supposed to be
the cockeyed optimist. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I see no reason for optimism for next year...
Everything would need to go right for the Cubs to be competitive next year. And where did that wishful thinking get us this year?
I just consider it to be realistic.
I think I speak for everyone here when I say, "Wait, what the hell are you talking about?"
by Ross on Jul 24, 2011 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think you're realistic
Just overly pessimistic.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Hendry believes!
Hendry believes in the strength of the organization, that the scouting and player development departments are building a pipeline that will flow more and more talent to Wrigley Field. He doesn’t see this as a long-term rebuilding project. He knows how quickly everything can change.
"That’s the way the game is now," Hendry said. "The Pirates were (34 games) back a year ago. They did a nice job. Some of their younger players are playing well. They had a few real quality acquisitions in the winter that clicked. And you’re right back in it.
I actually agree with him that this team could possibly compete next year. He’s shown no ability to build a sustainable competitor, however. So he should probably go.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
If the same people are in place next year...The Cubs will as bad or worse next year...
The Kool Aid will be very blinding for a few days since they beat the Astros…
No one thinks the Cubs are good or will compete this year..
What harm does enjoying our first 3 game winning streak bring? We can enjoy victories without thinking standing pat next year will be acceptable.
There are a few that think the Cubs are in good shape...
We can enjoy the 3 wins….But a select few will put way too much stock in 3 victories vs the worst team in baseball….
on the bright side
if there’s realignment, we’ll never do WORSE than 5th ever again …
by Orval Overall on Jul 24, 2011 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I feel like most of the optimism for 2012 is based on getting Fielder or Pujols.
Maybe I’m wrong. To see Pena at first next year would signify a pretty weak off season, even if they do sign Wilson.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
This article is complete conjecture.
Hey, he has space to fill. “Growing sense” is completely out of Wittenmeyer’s potted plant in the corner of his office. He can justify this by Quade’s vague comment which can be easily ‘prove’ this assertion. Presto, there’s a story.
Quade essentially said we’ll either not keep Pena or we might keep him. Hell, he doesn’t know his own job status for next year.
The papers have to get eyeballs on-line or somebody to buy the damn sheets.
And I don’t see any knuckleheads here, just those who want to see change. However, to get worked up over a story Wittenmeyer pulled out of thin air is taking this throwaway piece too literally.
For all we know, Pujols will re-sign with the Cards and the amazing might happen and the Brewers keep Fielder, right? Then, the Cubs would need to keep Pena.
by San Diego Smooth Jazz Man on Jul 24, 2011 2:25 PM CDT reply actions
Someone with photoshop skills
Needs to make a Fielder in the image of a savior picture ala Mark DeRosa with the lamb. It’s fitting cause once we sign Fielder, a thirty game turn around is inevitable. He will be the savior of this franchise!
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
You realize
You do have to start somewhere, right?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs do have to start somewhere
and it begins with a completely new organizational philosophy. I believe that if the Cubs were to sign Fielder it will be for way too much money over a much longer period of time than is wise. He very well could be productive throughout the length if that contract, that’s possible. But I also believe that its just as likely, if not more so, that his weight will catch up with him sooner rather than later and we’ll be left with another albatross contract like Soriano has proven to be.
The Cubs can’t continue with business as usual, that’s where they have to start.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
I don't recall the Cubs
signing too many All-Star FA first basemen just approaching the prime of their careers. Maybe I missed one.
Maybe you’d love to see Colvin play first base next season, but that would make one of you.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Gee, uh, I don't recall the Cubs making any terrible signings
Gee wilikers, I guess you got me there huh NBF?
How about you quit putting words in people’s mouth, that would be a great place to start a rational debate! Your condescending tone is getting really tiring and making it so that any sort of discussion on this site completely ruined thanks to you.
Nowhere do I say anything about Colvin, where do you come up with these delusions of yours? I compared signing Fielder to a long term contract as possibly being as disastrous as Soriano’s. It’s very possible that due to his size that Fielder within 2 or 3 could only be a DH, do you think that we’ll be able to sign him for only a 2-3 year contract? Probably somewhere in your clearly delusional mind you do think that.
Sorry that I don’t believe that signing a 28-tear-old with a weight problem to a long term contract is such a wise move for a team that is struggling to shed albatross contracts to begin with.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
That was clearly meant for NBF
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
The only condescension I see here is coming from you
I don’t recall calling you a name, just challenging your view. Instead you tell me I have a “clearly delusional mind” and that I singlehandedly make “any sort of discussion on this site completely ruined.”
I got news for you: One of us does indeed have a completely delusional mind, and it isn’t me.
A Fielder contract, IMHO, won’t be an albatross. A Pujols contract might be.
What’s your proposal for a solid first baseman who could help the Cubs compete in 2012 and beyond, Branch Rickey? And last I checked, 27 (which actually is Fielder’s age) ISN’T OLD. (The Cubs are never going to have a team full of 24-year olds; sorry to burst your balloon.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Your saying that your remark
“I may have missed one” wasn’t condescending? Haven’t you noticed that you have gotten into it with almost everyone on this board? Soon you will have to have realized that there is w pattern forming and it’s likely due to your attitude, it’s not everyone else. But you will probably compare yourself to Rosa Parks or something, standing up to the tyranny of us realistic minded posters! And don’t say that isn’t a stretch, you are the one who compared us to Nazis not that long ago (coo coo, coo coo).
Hate to burst your balloon there Brucey boy but Prince will turn 28 at the beginning if next season, making him 28 for most of next season, not 27. Thats how birthdays work, wasn’t sure if you were aware of that either…
And the simple fact you keep bringing up competing in 2012 shows how delusional you are. “come on guys, were only a piece or two away from winning it. Don’t know why you all can’t see that from a 65 win team.”

I tried bringing up my concerns (which are real and justified) with signing Fielder to a long term contract without any sort of negativity or bad mouthing anyone for their views. Then you come along with your condescending tone and take away from the matter at hand and present nothing substantial to the conversation. AS ALWAYS!
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
Thanks
for not answering my question. As always.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
HAHAHA!!!
You, of all people, bringing up not answering questions? Now THAT is funny!
Uh, gee, ok, um no, I don’t want Branch Rickey to be the Cubs first baseman. Does that answer your profound question?
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
by DTJchris on Jul 24, 2011 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's not a "gotcha" or frivolous question
Unlike some of the ones I get here.
Although if you don’t know who Branch Rickey is, I guess I shouldn’t take anything you say seriously. Look it up.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I know who Branch Rickey is
Thankfully you came along and took away any sort of real baseball discussion.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
Which you initiated
by saying we should photoshop Fielder over DeRosa on the savior photo, as if that was real baseball discussion and as if those players were equal.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I made a joke
You went into the Cubs having to start somewhere, which made me think you wanted a serious baseballl discussion. I obliged and explained where I believe this organization should start, calmly and rationally. Then you replied with your typical condescending remark once you have nothing of substance to say, which is clearly more often then not.
I do think it’s funny that the future of the organization begins and ends with Prince Fielder, thus the remark I initially made. Yet he doesnt play and will likely never play for this team. He’s overweight, has said he would play DH (which leads me to believe even he know his time at 1st is limited), and will command a monster contract. But for some reason people like yourself believe he is the key for the Cubs, which I think is humorous.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway,' but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies." - Mike Royko
And 'business as usual'
isn’t signing a premier player just when his prime years are starting to kick in.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Seems possible the whole team will be back next year, GM and manager included.
That way the Cubs will only be their ususal “two players” away from competing for the NL Central.
Really they need to trade more prospects to get bona fide major leaguers, or hit the FA market hard. My guess is they dabble with both and play it down the middle, lacking the vision or patience to do either of the extremes effectively.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Jul 24, 2011 5:52 PM CDT reply actions
Um ... they probably should try to do both
They’re in a position, like all big markets, to do both if they wish.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions
So another Garza transaction and Pena signing?
We can sign Pena to replace Pena. Who is our next Garza? Demspter?
I’m just being somewhat pessimistic about this all, so pay no attention. I’ll be brewing a fresh batch of Kool Aide soon and all will be right.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Jul 24, 2011 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Awesome
You might want to pass some around. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 24, 2011 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions
BTW - Id love to enter the 2013 playoffs
with Garza as our #3 – thatd be a dream
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
not
the worst plan in the world though my opinion changes everytime he strikes out.everyone seems to think we have pujols or fielder in our back pocket. chicago is not the attractive destination it used to be o.k. it’s a team that cant field,cant hit in the clutch,and cant seem to find a way to win too often.i would love to have prince but i cant see a 25 million dollar player turning things around.we need pitching and players that know how to play the game right.another season and z and dempster will be gone.then what?
Is there anything around that points to the Cubs signing CJ Wilson, or is it pure speculation?
never forget...
1.7%
anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 24, 2011 5:59 PM CDT reply actions
Right now he looks like the best pitcher on the market.
I think that is why people mention him. I have seen nothing that links him to the Cubs other than their need for him.
They could always just hope Dempster stays. He’s probably the next best SP potentially on the market.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Jul 24, 2011 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think there's any doubt that Demp will return.
never forget...
1.7%
anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 25, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah.
I’m one of the folks suggesting the Cubs sign CJ. I would hope that they do that with Dempster, Garza and Z still on the team.
If they did, they could backload CJ’s contract, because after 2012, Dempster and Z (and $32 million) come off the books.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
The problem with backloading would then be replacing Dempster and Zambrano...
Not that either guy has been an ace or anything, but (prior to this year) both were solid #2-3 type starters for us. Signing Wilson would be great. But if Zambrano and Dempster do get traded/let go by/after 2012, then we have Garza (for one more year) and Wilson and 3 question marks.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to sign Wilson. Just that backloading the contract could put us in a situation where we still have to choose between a bloated payroll or a shot at competitiveness in 2013 and 2014. So it requires some consideration.
Hopefully Cashner and McNutt (and maybe another arm or two from AA-AAA) are ready/healthy by then. That’s a big part of the key to being competitive while avoiding a Red Sox/Phillies/Yankees payroll.
Well, the level of backloading is also important.
I’m not saying we give Wilson $3 million in 2012 and $25 million every year after.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Fine with me
I don’t think the Cubs have much of a chance at either Fielder or Pujols without tying 1/5 of their payroll for the next six plus years in one player.The problem for those who say, fine only if we don’t getPujols & Fielder is that Pena may well be gone by then. I am not saying don’t kick the tires on Pujols of Fielder but i don’t want the Cubs to be a team that just drives the price up for another team that signs them and ends up with some 2nd rate FA or trades really good prospects. Been there, done that with Furcal. Also should have learned something about tying up that much money in one player. Time to learn how to budget wisely and to me that works with Pena.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
AZ Phil
estimates that we have a 104 mil payroll next year assuming all to-be free agents leave, Ramirez is bought out, and arbitration players get their expected raises.
I think 125 mil is probably a fair estimate for payroll, with 140 mil being the likely ceiling. I don’t have inside info, just a guess based on what we’ve seen.
If we want Ramirez back, it’s likely going to take 10-12 mil or so, I would guess. He’s the only impact 3rd baseman out there, and he’ll probably want 3 years.
If we want Fielder, we’re probably looking at roughly 22 mil over 6 years, just a guess.
If we want CJ Wilson, I’d be we have to look at 14-15 per over 4-5 years.
To get all 3 we’d be looking at adding 40-50 mil to our payroll. If we unload Byrd, and perhaps can trade Pena and his deferred money, then perhaps we could add all 3. But that leaves an outfield of Soriano and nothing else, and I still don’t know if that team is enough to compete. That’s why I think Hendry needs to be a little more aggressive at the deadline and deal some pieces he deems to valuable to move for assets that have more long-term value.
For example, if he can move Marshall for a prospect talented enough to serve at the back end of the rotation next year, but has upside to the middle to front end of the rotation down the road, he should do it. If he can move Soriano and save 5 mil a year on his contract, he should do it. If he could send Brett Jackson to LA for Kemp, he should do it.
Just my opinion.
DEJESUS!!!
MLB trade rumors has it at 76, assuming Dempster exercises his option (which he may not)
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/04/2012-contract-issues-chicago-cubs.html
So not sure where the 104 comes from, or what it assumes. But we should have plenty of $$$ to spend on a pitcher, a first baseman, and some other odds and ends.
by Orval Overall on Jul 24, 2011 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that llink might be missing a lot
http://www.thecubreporter.com/2011/06/15/preparing-2012-apocalypse
above is the one I was referencing. I don’t know that it’s correct, but he is a more reliable source than MLBTR and it looks more thorough.
DEJESUS!!!
Both are correct - the MLBTR just didn't add the arb-eligible guys to the payroll
The MLBTR article has us at $72.6 million in obligations (non-arb/pre-arb guys). But it does not include salaries for the arbitration-eligible guys (Garza, Soto, Baker, Hill, Wells, and DeWitt) or the pre-arbitration guys. It’s probably ~$22 million for those guys total, and an additional $5-6 million for the pre-arb guys. So we’re at about $100 million if we merely let Samardzija walk, ~$103 million if we keep him. And we’d still need to replace/re-sign three of our starting position players (Pena, Ramirez, Fukudome).
Cots has us at 72 million under contract for 2012.
And that is with 14 to Dempster and 2 to Ramirez. Garza, Soto, Baker, Hill, Wells, and DeWitt are arbitration eligible which could add 20 million to the payroll. If they then resign Ramirez and Pena, that could add another 22 million. Which means essentially the same team will cost about 114 million to field next year. Unless the payroll is raised, the Cubs would essentially have Fukudome’s 14 million to spend this offseason.
"I'd rather hit home runs you don't have to run as hard." -- Dave Kingman
by BucknerKongCardenal on Jul 24, 2011 10:07 PM CDT reply actions
You would sign Ramirez to a 3 year contract for 10 million a year
and Fielder for 22 million, and CJ wilson for 14 million a year. You might also be able to save 5 million if you sign Garza and Soto to long term deals and back load them. Which brings to about the same payroll at 133 million.
No, that's way more than $133 million
We’re going to be a bit over $100 million without the three guys you listed once you factor in the arb-eligible and pre-arb guys. You just suggested adding $46 million in payroll with those guys. So unless you backload the deals heavily or make several salary-shaving moves (like trading Byrd), that would a substantial increase in salary.
I was just using his analysis on arbitration
I would offer Garza and Soto contracts to save some money. I am hoping that Cashner can replace Zambrano or Dempster as a #2-3 pitcher.
With Ramirez back that will up the payroll to 80 million. Then you add Fielder and Wilson for 36 million. Then you have 116 million. I would not offer arb to Hill or Dewitt. Lemahieu and one of the catchers can replace them on base salary. Then i would try to bring Garza, Soto, Wells, and Baker for about 20 million. 10 million for garza, 2 million for Wells, and 6 million for Soto, and 2 million for Baker. That is 136 million.
Carpenter replaces Wood, Mateo replaces Shark, and any lefty replaces Grabow.
The Payroll would be coming close to 140 million. I don’t think Ricketts would go that high and we might have to trade Byrd, Z, or Dempster.
At this point, why would you expect Cashner can be that good?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Why would you assume he can't be good?
He’s got incredible stuff. Now, if you said healthy instead of good, I might agree.
I guess I do mean healthy/good.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
There is the little problem of 0 track record at a MLB starter and near 0 track record as a starter, period
Maybe he will be really good, but at this point he is completely unproven. 5 1/3 solid innings don’t count – if they did, Coleman would be an anchor in the rotation due to some good starts last year.
Agree partially...
Cashner definitely has no track record as an MLB starter. But he has a fairly solid (albeit limited) track record as a starter in the minors. He doesn’t have many innings, but he’s succeeded as a starter at every level of the minors.
The biggest concern (besides health) is that he has only ~120 IP as a starter above the A+ level. He has pitched over 100 innings in 2009 and 2010, so he’s not completely green. But there’s no guarantee that he’ll be an effective MLB starter for 175+ IP next year.
by SouthernCub on Jul 26, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
My point was that we'd be at about $10 million more than $133 million...
Your last sentence was the thing I had a contention with. I don’t think it’s fair to say we would be at about the same paryoll in your scenario. We’d be increasing payroll by 8-10%.
I agree that I don’t think Ricketts will let the payroll go that high, which is why I said there’d have to be some salary-shaving moves in there.
I’m not saying it can’t be done. I’m just saying you seemed to oversimplify the calculations there by saying we’d be at about the same payroll.
by SouthernCub on Jul 26, 2011 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Sinse when do senses grow?
Just another sports writer cliche. Sounds like hocus pocus gobbeldygook to me (imagines Gordon Wittenmyer hanging out in the Cubs locker room with a divining rod sensing the vibes about which player will be traded and who will be re-signed).
seems to me
that we got exactly what we bargained for in Pena—Good power/Kingmanesque SO rate/good OBP for such a high strikeout rate/decent glove at 1B/good clubhouse guy.
Probably worth re-signing unless a better option emerges.
Yeah, Jon Heyman disagrees
https://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHeyman/status/95515481984868352
“Carlos Pena will almost surely be moved. "
Not necessarily.
Pena could be traded and still return in 2012.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I think such a turn of events would be highly unlikely...
It’s rare for that to happen with guys who have a long history with a franchise. But it’s especially rare for it to happen with a guy who spent less than 2/3 of a season with a franchise.
Right.
Seriously, name some players who have done that — been traded in their walk year and then returned. I can’t think of any.
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This is a unique situation.
If the Cubs trade Pena and then can’t sign Pujols or Fielder, I could see this happening. There aren’t many first base options on the market and if they can’t land one of the big two, the Cubs will have money to spend.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Jim Slaton
33 years ago.
I’ve got a good memory.
by Josh Timmers on Jul 25, 2011 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions
OK, that's one in 33 years.
So it’s pretty unlikely.
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#Likely
Okay, I forgot to mention the completely improbable options.
It's not completely improbable.
It’s unlikely. But if the Cubs trade him and then can’t sign Fielder or Pujols, I wouldn’t be shocked to see him come back.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
How improbable would it be that Lance Berkman doesn't resign with the Cardinals
and he is option C?
Impossible.
Berkman hates Wrigley and would never sign here.
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It's pretty unlikely...
it’s possible, but pretty unlikely. And we’d probably have to overpay to get him back, which sort of defeats the point.
by SouthernCub on Jul 26, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Yep.
Exactly WHO is full of crap, remains to be seen.
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