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The Meaning Of Kosuke Fukudome

Kosuke Fukudome of the Chicago Cubs stands before the start of the Cubs and Washington Nationals game at Nationals Park in Washington, DC. The Cubs traded Kosuke Fukudome to the Cleveland Indians for two prospects.  (Photo by Rob Carr/Getty Images)

Most people here -- myself included -- are happy, I believe, that Kosuke Fukudome is no longer a Cub. He provided good defense and drew a fair number of walks. But that's about all the value he had in his Cubs career; the power that he showed in Japan never manifested itself on this side of the Pacific, and his MLB career -- which I suspect is over after this season -- has to be seen as a huge disappointment.

Why did this happen? From 2003-2006, Fukudome averaged 29 home runs and 96 RBI for the Chunichi Dragons in NPB -- and that's in a shorter season that lasted around 140 games. He was widely considered to be the best hitter in Japan. Here's his complete NPB record (which has only a handful of categories; there isn't a more complete record available online, at least not one I could locate). He did have a wrist injury that cut his 2007 season down to about half a year, but even then, he hit 13 HR and drove in 48 runs playing 81 games. (Here's his 2007 Chunichi Dragons record.)

At least three other teams -- the White Sox, Rangers and Padres -- were interested in Fukudome, and at least one of those teams offered more money than the Cubs wound up paying him. Fukudome stated at the time he was signed that he wanted to play for the Cubs -- remember, they were coming off a division title season -- and they guaranteed he could play his Japanese position, right field; it appeared at the time the other teams wouldn't or couldn't do that.

So what happened? Why did this signing go so terribly wrong?

Star-divide

There are only two Japanese-born position players who have contributed over an extended period of time on a solid, major league regular or star basis: Ichiro Suzuki and Hideki Matsui. The rest of the baseball landscape is littered with failures: Kaz Matsui, Tsuyoshi Shinjo, Kenji Johjima, Akinori Iwamura, Tadahito Iguchi and a number of pitchers, many of whom had a decent season or two, but wound up heading back to Japan. Do you think the Red Sox would like to have all the posting money they spent on Daisuke Matsuzaka back? (I'm guessing yes.)

There are two factors, I think, involved here: cultural differences and the nature of how baseball is played in North America compared to Japan.

It must be very difficult for a player to come 10,000 miles from home, to a place where he knows little or nothing about the language, perhaps without his family for extended periods of time, and play baseball effectively, even with a translator and other amenities the team gives him, and even in a city where there may be enough Japanese culture and population for him to feel somewhat at home. For Ichiro and Hideki Matsui, playing in Seattle and New York (and later, for Matsui, in southern and northern California), the Japanese community may have been enough. Or these two players may have had the mental toughness to do it, while the others didn't. It's impossible to get into the mindset of players, but this seems the most likely outcome. Why else would there be more than 40 Japanese-born players who have come to MLB since Hideo Nomo broke the barrier in 1995, yet only a handful (and Nomo also had some success before flaming out) have succeeded?

Another reason is likely the difference in ballparks and pitching styles. I have been to Japan and seen two stadiums there (the Tokyo Dome and the Seibu Dome). Japanese parks are smaller than North American parks. It's easier to hit home runs there -- this is also proven out by the numbers of American players, many of whom don't hit in MLB, who go to Japan and become fearsome power hitters (Randy Bass, Tuffy Rhodes, others). Japanese pitching is also different; this recent Baseball Prospectus article ($) explains some of the differences. It may be that Japanese hitters simply can't adjust; Fukudome did manage to bring his plate discipline over and draw walks, but the power virtually vanished. This link estimates the Major League Equivalency for Fukudome -- before he came here. The power numbers are a little too high, but anyone looking at these might have exercised caution before giving Fukudome $48 million.

What does this mean for the future? The Cubs made a mistake -- but it was a mistake other MLB teams were lined up to make after the 2007 season. Four years later, it's extremely unlikely that teams are going to do this in the future, and after the Matsuzaka debacle, players who go through the posting system aren't likely to get those huge paydays, either. It may be that NPB players just aren't suited to become stars in MLB, with the occasional exceptions such as Ichiro, or Hideki Matsui. It will mean that MLB teams' Pacific Rim scouts will become much more circumspect about who they go after to bring to play here.

We're not likely to see another Kosuke Fukudome in a Cubs uniform; though it's possible the Cubs may have another Japanese player in the future, as may other teams, I suspect the flood of players from NPB coming across the Pacific will slow to a trickle in the near term, or at the very least, they won't be paid as handsomely. Fukudome, as I noted, did bring some useful skills to the Cubs and the USA; just not enough of his Japanese skills translated to make him worth his big free-agent contract.

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While I understand the necessity, I am sad to see him go.

If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.

by eths on Jul 29, 2011 8:40 AM CDT reply actions  

Me too

He never complained, went out there every day and tried his best. Even when they started sitting/platooning him, he kept quiet. I guess I would, too, if I made the cash he did.

Al, the reasons you gave were great. I personally would like to add that the pitching is better here than in Japan, IMO. The NL adjusted to him and took away his power. It didn’t seem like he beat a pitcher strength to strength. His home runs were a result of a pitcher’s mistake, mostly.

I will miss him. Who can forget his Cubs Opening Day?

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by BigJohnAZ on Jul 29, 2011 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's a good memory.

Wish he had given us more.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of course.

The Cubs lost. But still.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 30, 2011 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

parts & pieces

Players from Japan CAN be useful parts in a winning team, but I agree very few will ever be starts in MLB.

"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields

by KedzieKid on Jul 29, 2011 8:42 AM CDT reply actions  

Johjima, Iwamura, Iguchi

weren’t failures at all, they played at a good level. Shinjo wasn’t good in Japan either, So Taguchi was better in the states than he was in Japan.
They had a different ball until this year and the grass is also different, many Japanese players weren’t used to play on those type of fields.

by Omigawa on Jul 29, 2011 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

And today there's no american player dominating the league in power.

The best Home-Run hitter is Takeya Nakamura and he leads the league by a fair margin (27, the second one Balentien is at 19). The new ball completely changed the game.

by Omigawa on Jul 29, 2011 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kenji was terrible in Seattle

Not even Mr Nintendo could save him.

Baseball is too much of a sport to be a business and too much of a business to be a sport.
William Wrigley Jr

by bubbamike the one and only on Jul 30, 2011 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

You wish you had a .296 20 HR catcher with a great arm.

by Omigawa on Jul 30, 2011 7:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Stars

"It's a funny old world. Man's lucky if he gets out of it alive." W.C. Fields

by KedzieKid on Jul 29, 2011 8:42 AM CDT reply actions  

Right.

MLB scouts will have to be much more careful bringing Japanese players over in the future.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Difference in Cultures; Better Ball in USA

I’ve got to think that the huge difference in cultures between the USA and Japan had something to do with Kosuke not doing as well as we would have liked with the Cubs.
Also, there’s a higher caliber of baseball played in the USA major leagues than there is in Japan.

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Jul 29, 2011 8:47 AM CDT reply actions  

Maybe "failure" was too strong a word.

You’re right that expectations were high, and that maybe he wasn’t suited to those.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly...

failure to meet expectations. The expectations (and the resulting hype and contract) were the problem.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's part of it, too.

Again, remember, we’re talking about four years ago. Fukudome was considered the best hitter in Japan. His skills didn’t translate. As I said in the post, things like that are going to mean fewer Japanese signings in the future, for all teams.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that was what I was trying to say...

people had an erroneous expectation that Fukudome was a decent power guy. Those expectations weren’t appropriate.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was gonna say...

That word struck me as a bit unduly harsh as well. Kosuke winds up with a Cubs career line of .262/.369/.403 (.772 OPS, .340 wOBA). I wouldn’t call that failure from an offensive perspective at the major league level, though “ultimately disappointing” and “inadequate in light of his contract value” is certainly fair.

His defense (in right field) seemed, overall, very solid to me. I’ve noticed, however, that his career UZR rating (over 2,800 innings) at that position has fallen to negative levels. That strikes me as odd. I wonder if his lack of assists has something to do with it.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm guessing that his range has declined as well...

that’s one of the hardest things to observe as a casual observer because there is no real reference point. But if I had to guess, he’s probably not getting to as many balls as he did when he was younger.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that could definitely be.

Kosuke still appears to take smart, confident routes to most fly balls. But maybe he’s failing to get to more of them than I realize.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

There has been some serious wishful thinking about Kosuke's glove and arm over the last 3 years.

He’s not a great OF.

When you see Dome play RF, and then in the same game see someone like Justin Upton in RF, you realize that there is an entire level of “good” that Kosuke simply does not touch.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, Justin Upton is 23 years old...

…and appears to be headed toward elite status. Hardly a fair comparison. And this is really where we get to semantics. I wouldn’t call Kosuke a “great” right fielder, but I’d call him a fairly good one based on my own eye test.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Per UZR, he was only "good" in 2008. He's been "below average" to "very bad" since then.

He was good in limited time in 2009, too.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

As I understand it...

…UZR is really subject to sample size concerns. So single-season ratings aren’t ideal. I believe one needs three full seasons worth of data to really get a trustworthy rating. Of course, by that measure, Kosuke still isn’t very good. But, like I said, that doesn’t quite match up with my perceptions nor that of many others.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Could be - my casual observer eye is no better than yours...

Just speculating a possible explanation. It could also be that defensive metrics are still pretty variable and that it may just be a matter of which metric you consider.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

UZR is pretty objective. He's not getting to many balls at all anymore.

Any way you slice it, Dome is a very poor defensive player at this point in his career. He was poor last year, too.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

UZR doesn't measure assists, does it?

He’s just been a kind of lousy RF for the last couple of years. He doesn’t get to very much, and as we’ve discussed, batters take extra bases on him more often and with almost total impunity.

He was a good RF in 2008. He was a terrible CF in 2009, and a mediocre to bad RF in 2010 and 2011.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I thought UZR does include assists.

Isn’t that why Soriano has had such spectacular UZR ratings in the past? His career ratings in left field are still otherworldly good.

We’ve discussed this before and I think you’re defensive assessment of Kosuke is still way too negative. I don’t think runners take extra bases on him “with almost total impunity.” But I’ll also admit that I don’t watch every single inning of every game, so maybe I’m missing some of those plays.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm trying to speak objectively.

Runners take extra bases on him 48% of the time (about 51% for the last 2 years) and he has a career kill rate of 1.5%. (Less than 1% over the last 2 years) Those are not good numbers for his career, and they’re pretty awful for 2010-2011.

Even taking his “good” year – 2008 – into account, runners he throws runners out at about half the league average, and it’s not because people are scared to run on him.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

As Cubs fans

When was the last time we got to watch a consistantly spectacular defensive outfielder? Perspective might play a role in that Kosuke seemed good to us as compared to the mediocrity and second basemen playing the OF we’ve seen lately.

by Crez on Jul 29, 2011 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's a fair point, too.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

HE'S NOT SPECTACULAR. He's been below average for his career by literally every metric.

In 2009, he was putrid in CF.
In 2010, he was below average in RF.
In 2011, he is one of the worst RF in the league.

He had a good 2008 defensively, and Cubs fans are either unable or unwilling to admit that his range fell off the table and his arm has always been below average.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah I guess that's what you were saying.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe Andre Dawson in the Late 1980's

I can’t think of any great defensive outfielders the Cubs have had since then.

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Jul 29, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Henry Rodrig.....no, wait...

Damon Buf….um, hold on…

Rondell Whi…oh man…

Jeromy Bu….dang….

FELIX PIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE WAS AWESOME!!!!!!
and Reed Johnson.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I mean, he wasn't here long ...

but Pie was a very good defensive outfielder, wasn’t he?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's too bad we didn't just hang on to Pie.

He was clearly overrated. But he could have been a decent, third or fourth outfielder, especially in his pre-arb years.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I never saw Pie as a star as his swing had too many holes but he was a lot more useful than Joey Gathright who the Cubs signed to replace him. I don’t think Piniella could stand him though as he would not alter his batting approach which Piniella thought he needed to do.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Jul 29, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or the Cubs could have traded Pie EARLIER ...

and gotten more than Aaron freaking Heilman.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're welcome.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have a solution for that problem......

Fire him.

Sorry I couldn’t resist.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Jul 29, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right. Pie to Baltimore ...

for Olsen, and Olsen to Seattle for Heilman?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Heilman was all over the place that winter.

He was traded from NYM (with like 5 other guys) to SEA for Sean Green, JJ Putz and Jeremy Reed. Somehow in that mess CLE sent Frankie Gutierrez to SEA, and I’m not even sure they were a part of the trade.

Meanwhile, the Cubs traded Felix Pie to BAL for Garrett Olson and someone named Henry Williamson. Olson (along with Ronny Cedeno) was almost immediately flipped to SEA for Heilman.

In the end, SEA wound up with Gutierrez and Cedeno and Jason Vargas.
BAL wound up with Pie.
CLE got Joe Smith and prospects
NYM wound up with Putz and Jeremy Reed.

And we got Aaron Heilman! It’s as though we joined in on this multi-team transaction right at the end, with a laser focus on acquiring neither prospects nor MLB talent.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I remember that, too.

He threw the ball so hard he left his feet.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Corey Patterson was pretty good defensively...

Felix Pie was good defensively as well. Sosa was really good defensively in his younger days (prior to the roids). But for the most part, defense has not been good from our OF.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Patterson?

He was mediocre. Took wrong routes to balls all the time.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Depending on the metric, he was very good or average...

he took bad routes, but he covered a ton of ground and had a strong, accurate arm. Fangraphs had him at a -5.6, 0.9, 24.6, 4.0, and 15.7 from 2002-2006. So at times it appeared that he was very good.

Other measures suggest he was average, so it just depends.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good analysis. Wish Koske well. The other factor not mentioned is that right field in Wrigley is extremely tough – you can see visiting right fielders struggle with it. Fukudome, unlike Soriano, provided a role model for the younger players. Don’t know why he always tapered off offensively as the season wore on.

by Been there Done that on Jul 29, 2011 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

calling a player a success or failure

is often relegated to whether the player lived up to his contract. If Fukudome was signed for $3m a year, he would be viewed not as a failure, but probably as a decently productive bargain. As is the case with Soriano and Zambrano, these players don’t sign themselves to massive contracts. The failure here was by those who signed him.

Fukudome is a unique case relative to other Cub failed signings. If one asks why is a player able to succeed year after year in one month (April) and then become a different hitter all other months you have to ask if this player had the capability to play at the April level all year, and if so, why couldn’t he?

I will say this, and I was no Fukudome fan – this season as much as any has demonstrated how well he mastered catching fly balls in the Wrigley sunlight. It is far more challenging than he makes it look.

by BeltwayCubsFan on Jul 29, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Funny thing is that August was his second best month.

June is a killer though.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Jul 29, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

I fail to see how you arrived at that conclusion

Can you provide your figures to give me a better idea, please?

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

We've discussed in this thread

about the discrepancy in evaluating Kosuke’s defensive value. Those figures are dragged down dramatically by his UZR. I will have to do some research to re-find it, but I’ve seen other figures that projected a much more even-keeled statement of Kosuke’s value then that one. Given the notoriously fickle nature of UZR and unanswered questions about it, however, I think it’s dangerous to arrive at the types of conclusions D98 is pushing around like fact in this thread.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

You may disagree with the conclusion

but saying you fail to see how he arrived at the conclusion seems wrong to me. Clearly, he arrived at the conclusion based on the Fangraphs data.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I failed to see how he arrived at that conclusion

until I saw it was a fangraphs metric that utilized UZR. Now I understand how he came to it, but ultimately disagree with his assertion that is what Kosuke was worth. Given the nature of UZR, I think at the very least a caveat about its questionable reliability in terms of our ability to draw solid conclusions from it should be mentioned.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

I still don’t think I’d argue that Fukudome has been worth $44 million on the field over the past 3.5 years. How much he’s fallen short of that I’m willing to leave up to speculation as it depends on unreliable defensive data (in either direction).

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I responded to a post of your's below

Using the following baseball reference win values:
2008: 4.4, 2009: 4.8, 2010: 5.2, 2011: 5.6
Kosuke’s total value comes to about 36.7 million using B-Ref WAR totals. So, 36.7 out 43 million isn’t particularly atrocious, seeing the Cubs ate part of his salary and probably overpaid him, as many free agents are, to land him.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree he wasn't entirely worth his contract

However I disagree to the extent, and I think it was a worthwhile chance for the Cubs to take. Certainly NOT as bad of a contract as some here are making it out to be.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

There seem to be two camps.

1) Signing him was a mistake.
2) Signing him was a disappointment in hindsight.

The second camp might be more cogent to me if Kosuke had been able to fill the roll Hendry signed him to fill. The Cubs, in the 2007 offseason, wanted a middle-order lefty bat and paid for one.

Kosuke was not good in that role. He was better, later, as a leadoff hitter. So it was a mistake to sign a guy who clearly couldn’t do what he was signed to do.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

role

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, it was a mistake to sign a guy for 20-50% more than what he was worth

Even if you don’t believe he was only a 25.6 WAR player (which would mean he was overpaid by 80% of his value), that’s still a substantial overpayment in value.

But I agree with your point too.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right.

I was trying to get past the BR/Fangraphs argument.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

He didn't...

those were win values that don’t discount replacement value… whether you do that or not doesn’t change the value of his actual performance.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

This discussion is boring the shit outta me.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jul 29, 2011 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

ha

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry Dan...let's talk about something YOU want to talk about....

GAWD you’re such a woman.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

LOL

Yeah… it’s pretty boring, but it’s not like we can talk about what the Cubs should actually do with RF, because they just traded their best option and have nobody to replace him. Would you rather talk about Tyler Colvin?

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not like it will cost us the pennant.

And Kosuke wasn’t going to return next year, anyway.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, that's true

Colvin could he be a significant asset for this team moving forwards. Trading Kosuke was the correct move to give Colvin a chance to rebound. As much as I dislike Hendry, this was a future-looking move.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it's basically put-up-or-shut-up time for Colvin.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Colvin's trade bait, at best

On a different team he may amount to something – on the Cubs, with Rudy J.‘s philosophy of swing first and worry about OBP later, Colvin doesn’t have a prayer.

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by Easy Ed on Jul 29, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Careful, Ed.

There’s a poster around here who will claim that a MLB hitting coach can’t actually help a player become patient. Arguing with him could easily eat up your entire afternoon.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Really?

A hitting coach may not help a player be patient, but, one can certainly help one to NOT be.

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by Easy Ed on Jul 29, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

The sky is falling!

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by Shanghai Badger on Jul 29, 2011 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of course not...

but if they were going to get absolutely nothing in prospects and no salary relief, they should have just waited the market out a whole 3 days… unless you think these extra 3 days is going to turn Colvin back into something worthwhile.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you saying they got nothing in prospects?

Honestly, I’m never sure what to think of the haul in these types of trades.

Also, if we wanted to get something better out of a deal like this, we probably need another GM. While Hendry has been good in some trades, he typically hasn’t been awesome when he’s trading the veterans to contenders.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes...

They got absolutely nothing… two guys John Sickels didn’t even put in his top 25 last year.

I had no expectations about what they would get out of a Fukudome deal. I expected it to be very little… but I didn’t expect the Cubs to pick up $3m in salary while only getting ABs for Tyler Colvin in return. They didn’t have to waste $3m to make that happen and make the team demonstrably worse, for what that’s worth..

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow.

That’s … depressing. Is Hendry trying to get fired?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Consider the positives of this deal

We don’t have to watch the most aggravating Cub EVER anymore.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know I don't disagree with that point.

But if we could have gotten salary relief, but the Cubs held out for two mediocre prospects … wow.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

As opposed to...

… spending that $3 million on a player who cannot help the team make the playoffs this year, and will be gone after next.

I’ll take the prospects. The money is a sunk cost.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I dunno, Al.

The money that Cleveland will pay for Kosuke isn’t a ‘sunk cost.’

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not sure what you mean here.

The Cubs were going to have to pay Kosuke no matter what. So they pay him, and get two prospects.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

They basically undid the Hill raise mistake with this deal.

So that’s something we can build on.

I’d rather have 2 non-prospects and $775K than 2 months of Dome kicking it around RF in a 90+ loss season.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Me, too.

However, could the Cubs have gotten less as far as players and more salary relief?

Maybe that’s a pointless question to ask.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe not from the Indians.

They couldn’t have got less from them… or anyone else.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I will bet that Hendry exhausted every option.

It seems likely that CLE was the only destination with any interest whatsoever, and they weren’t really all that interested.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Then why not wait?

I’ll take that chance over getting no salary reliever and no prospect value. There’s just not much here vs plain cutting him if they were that desperate to open up a roster spot.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

They saved $775K.

If that was really the best that CLE was going to offer, and no one else was interested, you may as well do it.

I agree that the salary relief is less than I expected. But it appears that all 30 MLB GMs share my incredibly low opinion of Dome’s value.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

And I'm saying if that's all they were willing to offer...

they might as well not.

It’s ok to disagree on that. I’m willing to take that risk and you, and obviously the Cubs, weren’t. I’m fine with that.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wait for what, exactly?

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

For another team to offer more?

Maybe an injury happens? maybe contenders strike out on their other options? Hell… maybe you put him on waivers and some team blocks the trade and you let them have it. Wait and you have options. Do what Hendry did and you end up with nothing… and an expensive nothing.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree to disagree.

Wait how long? Three more days? You don’t know how many other teams were contacted, what other things Hendry did. You simply want to assume the worst, so you have done so.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

We have a problem...

because you think you know me and have any perspective on what I actually think and you let that cloud you to what I’m actually saying. You should just stick to the plain text, because you’re obviously incapable of doing otherwise correctly.

Nowhere did I say or assume Hendry hadn’t contacted every team in baseball. Nowhere did I say or assume what Hendry did or didn’t do. But I know what the result is, and I don’t like it. I’m entitled to that opinion and that viewpoint as much as you are. Like I said, it’s ok to disagree on this. You’re the one taking it to a personal level.

And then you let your sycophants get away with comments like below… as you always have. If I responded, you’d go out of your way to tell me to knock it off, as you always have, but you let them get away with it. I’ll give you credit for consistency.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's in response to the way he's treated me...

which is why I go out of my to not visit the site as often as when it first opened. Ever since he moved to this site, Al has gone out of his way to treat me unfairly, for whatever reason, including deleting posts that I put work into without just cause.

I’ll apologize for whatever role I have in that and how much you don’t appreciate it, but the rest is on Al.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

::Put's on tinfoil hat::

Please tell me more about this conspiracy against you Mr. Crockett.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

THAT'S WHY I'M WEARING THE HAT AND JOINING YOU.

Now please, continue.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've said all that there is to say on it.

I love the SBN sites, have before I cared a lick about BCB or it’s predecessors… and frequent others much more because of the quality of their writers and their content, which doesn’t waver even if the teams suck.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's the way you "disagree" and voice your opinions..

and I’m just speaking the truth. You call people like me a sycophant but I would have said it regardless of who you were carrying on with sir.

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." — Tommy Lasorda
Fire Q & J

by KS_Cub4Life on Jul 29, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

What gives you the right or capability to analyze me personally?

You know nothing of my “ego”… it might be even bigger than you think it is. But your posts are completely taking shots at me without contributing anything. You are trolling me, sir or madame.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

From what I've read this year

you always find a way to get into arguments because you’re so “misunderstood”. You do have very valid points at times but terrible communication/people skills. I only comment on this because it has gotten so old. All you seem to want is for Al to bow down to you. It’s honestly very sad. If you’re tired of the way you’re treated, which is more than warranted and I’m surprised you’re not banned yet but I understand not giving you that satisfaction, then why don’t you just leave? But I’m sure you’ll continue to play the always innocent role and complain that people don’t like you. I’m leaving now so complain away because you never do any wrong…and I was just here to read..goes to show how irritable your comments truly are…

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." — Tommy Lasorda
Fire Q & J

by KS_Cub4Life on Jul 29, 2011 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow, does your ego always blind you this much??

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." — Tommy Lasorda
Fire Q & J

by KS_Cub4Life on Jul 29, 2011 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

They gave Cleveland a bargain...

while they got nothing in return. You’ll take the prospects because you haven’t done the research to know better. There’s no way Hendry could have got any less than what they got for Fukudome, so why not just wait a couple more days?

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree here

I would have preferred $2M in salary relief and no prospects over $1M and 2 crappy prospects.

by magicblue on Jul 29, 2011 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

But you weren't going to get $2m in salary relief.

Unrealistic.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's the disagreement.

If you’re cool with the prospects, you don’t mind giving up the money (because it was a sunk cost). If you don’t like the prospects, than we are still paying most of Kosuke’s salary and we didn’t get much in return.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

To me...

… it’s paying the salary, and getting ANYTHING in return.

Your other choice was to keep him, pay the salary, and finish a miserable season, and get nothing.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or ...

get worse prospects (and, frankly, the two guys we got don’t seem to be very good) and save more money.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

How would you save more money?

Seriously. How are you going to get another team to pay more for him?

Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation

by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know the $$$ amount for sure

but it definitely would have been more than $775,000 . Heck, I would have rather had $1.25M than $0.775M + 2 crap prospects.

by magicblue on Jul 29, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who was going to pay that?

Name a team.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you saying the Indians wouldn't have

paid more of Fuke’s salary if we didn’t take the prospects? That’s not usually how it works.

by magicblue on Jul 29, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fuke was the most aggravating player on the Cubs EVER?

I’m not sure if you are saying this in jest or being serious, but given your typical posts, I’m leaning towards you are being serious.

I can think of 10 more players on the current Cubs roster that I wish were not on the Cubs anymore and are more aggravating than Fuke: Soriano, Grabow, Wells, DeWitt, ROrtiz, RLopez, Marmol (throw a friggin strike for once!), Campana, Colvin, Koyie F*cking Hill!

And if we go back in time, my list of more aggravating Cubs players than Fuke could go on forever. Neifi, Theriot, CPatt, Pie, Burnitz………
 
While Fuke’s production wasn’t worth his salary, he took the most professional ABs on the Cubs. He is 5th in MLB in pitches seen per plate appearance. I wish every Cub player had Fuke’s plate discipline.

by magicblue on Jul 29, 2011 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think he was exaggerating for effect.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've never seen anyone swing so far from "good" to "awful".

Not even Soriano, and he’d be in second place.

Every year, the torrid April, leading to cries from Cub Nation that “he’s finally adjusted and figured it out! This year will be different!”

Then, month after month of those windmill strikeouts. The absolutely abysmal performances for months and months on end.

Then, all of the defenders grasping at straws about all that Japan money rolling in, or how he’d teach our other guys patience, or whatever.

Bottom line – Fukudome had talent. And for whatever reason, he was completely unable to put together a full season of adequate performance. It was always 1 month of .980 OPS, one month of acceptable performance, followed by 3 months in which he hit like an AL pitcher.

If he’d posted the exact same stats as he actually did, but with less variance between the highs and lows, I would not be half as aggravated with him.

That, and if someone would have taught him not to corkscrew himself into the ground while striking out like a GD Looney Toon.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am mostly with you.

However, Alfonso Soriano is far more frustrating, because he makes more boneheaded plays. Kosuke’s lack of TOOTBLAN-style behavior was a redeeming quality.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed...

Soriano is more frustrating because he makes more boneheaded plays in the field and at the plate. And because he gets paid a lot more than Fukudome.

Fukudome is one of the less frustrating players. My biggest frustration with Fukudome has been the fact that the organization misevaluated him, overpaid him, and then had to sign Bradley to try to rectify the mistake (and misevaluated and overpaid him too).

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, Kosuke was one of the most frustrating.

But I respect your opinion if you feel differently.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dude, seriously, take a look at

the variability in performance from month to month for nearly every MLB player. Its very easy to sort this information in both fangraphs and on espn. Several hundreds of MLB players have career months followed by shit months followed by average, followed by above average months. The ones that don’t either consistently suck or are consistently awesome.

I’ve had this discussion with you before.

http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2011/7/1/2253367/chicago-cubs-chicago-white-sox-preview-friday#71026624

Based on wOBA: Kosuke has 2 excellent months, 2 average months, and then two terrible months and the totality of all of that equals a pretty good player. Not $48M over 4yrs good, but more like $35M over 4 years good, which is much better than most MLB players. Certainly better than “most aggravating Cubs player EVER”

We get it D98, you don’t like Fuke, that’s fine, but now you seem to be stretching your comments to the a new, almost delusional level.

by magicblue on Jul 29, 2011 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Bravo !!!
I wish every Cub player had Fuke’s plate discipline.

You could add 10 more wins to this squad IF that was the case. And Where would 10 more wins put us in the standings? 52-53 and 4.5 games out. That may be pushing it, but, this team leads the world in first pitch swings that end rallies.

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by Easy Ed on Jul 29, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Now, wait a second.

Please prove that you could add 10 more wins if every Cub had Kosuke’s plate discipline. That’s a helluva specific prediction, Ed.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, if every Cub followed Kosuke's lead ...

they probably wouldn’t win a game in June or September.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

How many 1st and 3rd and one out rallies were wiped out...

by someone swinging at the 1st pitch and GIDP? 20? 30? A-Ram, Sori, Byrd, Soto…they could ALL take lessons from ’Dome on pitch selection.

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by Easy Ed on Jul 29, 2011 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying 'Dome was a great hitter...

I’m saying he was the most professional hitter on the Cubs.

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by Easy Ed on Jul 29, 2011 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree!

If only Jim Hendry even know what the hell plate discipline was?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please tell me how you came to the 10 game figure.

You didn’t say, “All the Cubs would be better served by being more patient.” You made a VERY precise comment, Ed.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Speculating, el...

situational hitting…it’s the difference from being 15 games out of 1st and being somewhat still in contention in a very weal NL Central.

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by Easy Ed on Jul 29, 2011 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

*weak

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by Easy Ed on Jul 29, 2011 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Cubs plate discipline in the other hitters is that bad...

Putting aside Fukudome, Pena and Soto… it wouldn’t be that much of a stretch to see an extra .050 in OBP adding a 2 offensive wins per player to the other 5 spots, especially Castro. Obviously that’s at the extreme end of what’s possible.

It would certainly add more than if Fukudome tried to add some of the other Cubs’ “positives”.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's a fair statement.

Claiming the Cubs would be 10 games better — apparently because that’s a nice round figure? — is just bunk.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well that's what would happen...

if you increase 5 spots in the lineup by 2 wins per player… not that we could expect that kind of increase… but if someone’s going to make that argument, I’m not going to stop them.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Way too many .300 AVG/.330 OBP types

I’d even take .02-.03 improvements in OBP.

We either have guys who walk a good amount but either don’t hit for enough AVG (Pena and Soto) or don’t hit for enough power (Fukudome), or guys who hit for AVG but don’t walk or have power (Castro, Byrd, Barney), or Soriano (all power nothing else).

Ramirez is the only guy who brings decent walks with power and average.

Not a good combination (which isn’t surprising given the results).

Although it’s been the pitching and defense that have been the real culprits.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again...

It’s not $47m. It’s only $44m. You can’t blame him for the money the Cubs decided to kick in to play for someone else.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Can we blame Hendry for approving the contract?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

You can...

that’s my point… I’m done blaming people. I want a new President and GM and coach that I will blame for whatever stupid things they do… and many new players that I can blame for sucking… and hope I don’t have to do it nearly as often.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, I'm not done blaming people.

But I agree completely on everything else.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hey... that's cool...

blame away. There’s plenty to go around for the next couple months.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yup.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

I question the quality of those Baseball Reference measures as much as you question the Fangraphs measures...

I really don’t believe he was worth five wins above average. But even assuming that optimistic rating, he was still overvalued by ~20%. That’s a fairly big miss still.

And if you take the average of the two estimates (which is probably more accurate than assuming either extreme), the miss is 50%.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm merely presenting

an alternate point of view. I suppose, as many things go, the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Right, which means he was very likely WAY overpaid...

Averaging between $36.7 million and $25.6 million is $31.15 million. It’s substantially overpaid either way.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps

31 million out of the 43 or so they ended up paying him. I’d be interested to see how that stacks up to other major free agent acquisitions. It’s been my impression that most teams end up significantly overpaying for the most highly-sought after free agent talent.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of course ...

you could question whether the Cubs should have been in the bidding for the most highly coveted player, considering that player would turn out to be unable to fill the middle-order/lefty-bat role.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

That would be on Hendry and Co.

And in hindsight, we have perfect vision. No one knew for sure how Kosuke’s skills would translate over. If he had been the same calliber as Matsui and Ichiro, Hendry would’ve looked like a genius.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

That defense is used too often to defend this GM.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, don't misunderstand

that wasn’t a defense of Hendry. It was a gamble and Hendry lost.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, it was a gamble.

But when your shooter has been crapping out for 3 straight years, it’s probably time to hand the dice to the next guy.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

To expound

You pass out 50 million dollars to sure(er) things.

You gamble on short term properties, kids, and former failed prospects you get on a discount.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nobody's saying he's worth 5 wins above average.

Those are his actual wins. Like I said… the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Not that I really care about s at all, but… Whoa… 50? Your own FG numbers don’t even have him at only worth $22m. So where’d you get that?

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

50% of $30 million is $15 million...

So if his value was $30 million, he was overpaid by close to 50% of his value.

The actual midpoint number (I was lazy earlier) was $31.15 million. So he was only overpaid by 41% in that scenario.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

In other words, you were doing the math from the opposite direction...

I was presenting overpayment relative to value. You seem to be estimating overpayment relative to contract.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you look at Baseball-reference's WAR numbers, the disparity isn't so dire...

Like I’ve had to point out so many times. FanGraphs, which you are undoubtedly using, has him as a worthless player. BB-Ref has him as the Cubs’ best player. Both include defense in their calculation. One says he’s horrible… the other says he’s the best… by a huge margin. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Also, he was only paid $48m because the Cubs chose to give him away for nothing, including paying most of his salary. So you can’t really hold that against him too.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

He still would have been paid more than $40 million.

Probably around $44 million.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

You mean if the Cubs had got someone to cover some of his contract? Because if he stayed here, he would have been paid the same $48m and got two months to add onto his value..

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe I misunderstood your original point.

The Cubs paid Kosuke from 2008-10, from Opening Day until yesterday, and for most of his salary going forward (to get better prospects from the Indians).

In other words, the Cubs paid him about $44 million to play for the Cubs.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought they were paying everything but 775K?

More so they payed him 47.15 Million.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

That was my understanding as well.

but, from an evaluation standpoint, you can’t blame him for the part of the contract where he’s not playing for the Cubs… you can do that if you include his numbers with Cleveland, if you want… but that’s hardly the point. It’s the Cubs’ fault for not getting any kind of value for him in trade, not his.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

That is my point...

that $44m is less than $48m. It’s $4m less in value that he shouldn’t get blamed for when someone’s trying to say what he “earned” and what he was paid is “nowhere close”.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

And my point was ...

that it’s still $44 million.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

What's the point you're making?

That is still sucks? That’s fine… but it sucks by $4m less than some people are giving him credit for.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

So it was really, really bad, but it wasn't really, really, really bad?

Fine. I’ll agree to that. I also would agree, and endorse, what SouthernCub said below.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

And was his on-field value close to $44 million as a Cub?

Fangraphs would suggest no. I’ve not seen data that would suggest yes. That’s the point. Quibbling over whether he “really” cost $44 million or $48 million is beside the point. If his on-field value was $25-35 million, then he was way overpaid as a player either way.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Using B ref's win values

You can say Kosuke was worth around $36.7 million. So no, he fell short of being worth $44 million. Given the need to overpay for free agents, as well as the fact that the Cubs ate part of his salary and will not be deriving value from it, that’s hardly “way” overpaid.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are we really going to start arguing about 'way'?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well

way suggests he was highly overpaid. I’m suggest he was slightly overpaid in a reasonable amount, so yes. I don’t think it’s that ridiculous.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying he was worth what he was signed for at all...

just that the truth is somewhere between those two figures… and it’s irresponsible to not look at all the available data.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

How many times do I need to say look at baseball-reference.com?

Do you think they put that number up there because they deem it less reliable than FanGraph’s number? If they weren’t confident in that number, which says Fukudome was the best player on the team this year, wouldn’t they just use FanGraph’s?

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Baseball Reference didn't say he was worth close to $44 million...

They said $36.7 million. So between the two (I don’t think it’s fair to trust one over the other in this case) you have an average of $31.15 million. That’s pretty far overpaid.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

$13m spread over 4 years just doesn't seem that bad to me...

there have been “far” worse free agent signings. We’re talking less than 1 WAR off each year, without counting that such a free agent signing usually pays more per WAR anyway.

And for those that like “voodoo”, I’m willing to see what happens when he’s done with his supposed “June swoon” and heats up again in August like he does every year. I’ll bet he’s worth more than $4m from here on out (even if it’s not enough to make the whole contract much better). I don’t really think it works that way and he’ll just keep producing at a high level like he’s done this year, maybe even better if he can get re-energized by a playoff race and a new team with a better atmosphere and more support from his home crowd.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Saying "there have been worse deals" doesn't make it an okay deal...

it was a bad deal. Not the worst deal ever, but a bad one.

And while he heats up in August (.834 OPS career), he has also tended to fold in September (.633 OPS in September – his worst month). He’s never topped .700 OPS in September in MLB.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

A bad deal..

by not enough, as I just showed, to complain about… regardless of the %s. Less than 1 WAR per season… that’s what you’re saying is so bad.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I disagree that it's not enough to complain about...

you haven’t shown that to be the case. You have shown why you think it’s the case.

Less than 1 WAR per season on a player signed for a value of 2-3 WAR per season is, in my opinion, a pretty bad miss.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Then you must see lots of really bad misses.

Or have no perspective on the effectiveness of signing free agents to lucrative, long-term deals.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

There are lots of misses, yes...

that doesn’t mean that Fukudome wasn’t a miss.

I have plenty of perspective.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Apparently not..

if you think that less than 1 WAR, in either direction, would be statistically impactful enough to label someone a bust or a boon.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Relative to value...

1 WAR per year is 30-40% of his value. That’s not a Mike Hampton-like bust, but it’s still a miss. If you consistently miss like that, you either have a bad team or you have a REALLY high payroll (or both).

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or...

it shows the value of growing your own players and not having to play free agent bingo with overvalued players north of 30. that’s basically the description of every free agent that’s out there.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

You should always try to develop your own talent, but it doesn't mean you have to miss in free agency

Plenty of guys have value in the free agency/extension market. Ichiro is an example (even with his decline this year). Plenty don’t (like Jeter this time around).

But I’m pretty sure that the oft-referenced $4-5 million value per WAR is based on the free agent market. So that means that, on average, Fukudome was a below-value free agent signing.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

it had to be done....

For Fukudome to leave…. It’s disappointing that he didn’t show signs of his brilliance in Japan….

I can’t imagine what he felt getting all those boos from the Wrigley faithful in the 08 NLDS….

Two Words: Salty Saltwell

by Unclemike on Jul 29, 2011 8:53 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

I can’t imagine what he felt getting all those boos from the Wrigley faithful in the 08 NLDS….

The whole team got booed, not just Fukudome.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

true

But from a player that was so loved in his Country….he probably never experienced that….

Two Words: Salty Saltwell

by Unclemike on Jul 29, 2011 8:59 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

True, that.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

The whole team deserved to get booed for that crapfest!

That sweep directly relates to the nightmare tailspin this team is stuck in, and heading in, right now.

by cubfanwill on Jul 29, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

People have consistently overestimated the power of Japanese players

Hideki Matsui was a prodigious power hitter expected to be a 30+ HR US player. Ichiro was supposed to have more power than he did. Kaz Matsui was expected to be a 20/20 guy. Fukudome was supposed to be JD Drew/Bobby Abreu.

All of these guys were decent-to-great power hitters in Japan, and all provided less power than expected. That’s really the only thing that people missed on with regard to Fukudome, but it was a big miss.

For whatever reason (size of ballparks, quality/style of pitching, travel, etc) power hasn’t translated for these guys. Maybe teams are finally figuring that out.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 8:54 AM CDT reply actions  

As with almost every other trend in baseball over the last 75 years, Cubs management bought high and sold low...

Maybe sales of Cubs gear in Asian markets went up as a result of the Fukudome experiment, along with an expansion of the team’s Asian-American fan base. Also, Dome’s presence certainly had to help the Cubs’ Pacific Rim recruiting efforts. But viewed without these side benefits, simply as a baseball signing done to improve team performance, it obviously was a collossal failure. Hendry and the staff members and associates who talked him into this $48MM bust should be held accountable by ownership.

"Elder White! Look at the talent on those Cubs!" Harry Caray, KMOX Radio, 4/22/62

"And you have to wonder – What's the matter with Broglio?" Harry, KMOX, 5/24/64

by ernaga on Jul 29, 2011 8:58 AM CDT reply actions  

Sigh.

As I said, other teams were lined up to pay more than Hendry paid. Yes, it was a mistake — but only in hindsight.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Whoever paid for that contract should be held accountable....But Hendry has many others as well...

We are still paying for Bradley, through Silva….Do I need to keep going?

You know Hendry and Quade have to go.

by TJ11 on Jul 29, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

the Fukudome signing by Hendry....

Gives me mixed feelings….wasn’t a good signing but wasn’t as bad as Soriano, Bradley, Neifi, Jacque, and Miles….

(I was going to type Alfonseca, but that was a Macphail signing I believe)

Two Words: Salty Saltwell

by Unclemike on Jul 29, 2011 10:27 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

That was a trade.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

yea it was.....

Seems like centuries ago…..sheesh

Two Words: Salty Saltwell

by Unclemike on Jul 29, 2011 10:35 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Irrelevant.

People are judged by results.

FIRE JIM HENDRY. Injuries aren't the problem.

by shoemile on Jul 29, 2011 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yup.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sad to see him go because he played the game the right way

He always hustled. He played very good defense and he was fun to watch in the field. He was a great teammate, never complained, and understood his role in the batting order.

"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver

by RiskyBusiness on Jul 29, 2011 9:02 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Maybe he slipped a hari kari knife into a few lockers

"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver

by RiskyBusiness on Jul 29, 2011 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hara-kiri

Hara = stomach

Kiri = cutting

Also referred to as seppuku.

by MN exile on Jul 29, 2011 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

gotcha.

I like the idea of a Harry Caray knife much better.

I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best

by Blue W on Jul 29, 2011 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

if I am remembering correctly

the Hara-kiri knife was used to commit suicide (or kill a family member) when you have disgraced yourself or your family…

by hansman1982 on Jul 29, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ritual suicide

Generally as a final act of atonement.

Traditionally, there was also a second behind the suicide with a katana (what most Westerners call a “samurai sword”) whose job was to behead the suicide and end the suffering immediately.

by MN exile on Jul 29, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree.

I will miss him. I think he was under appreciated because he wasn’t the hitter he was paid to be.

Fasten those seat belts...

by katie casey on Jul 29, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'll miss him too.

He’s my five-year-old daughter’s favorite player.
I still haven’t worked out how I should break the news to her.

I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best

by Blue W on Jul 29, 2011 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

He is tied for the NL lead in dWAR at 1.7.

I don’t know how you do that playing “way worse than average”.

But if you don’t like his defense, you don’t.

"On offense, your most precious possessions are your 27 outs" - Earl Weaver

by RiskyBusiness on Jul 29, 2011 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

His UZR is -8.5 in just over half a season.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

As I said, the metrics don't agree...

Some like his defense and some dont. UZR isn’t the bible as far as defensive metrics go, it’s just one thing to look at.

by bdlugz on Jul 29, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I know that - but that UZR is absolutely miserable.

It seems odd that one metric could have him as “best in the league”, while another has him as “one of the worst regardless of position.” What’s the discrepancy?

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sure the explanation is long...

but ultimately comes down to the difficulty in measuring all the aspects of defense (positioning, range, trajectory/speed/angle of hits, wind, sun, small sample size, etc).

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm as fascinated by UZR as the next guy...

…but I’d again point out that Alfonso Soriano has a strong UZR rating for 2010 and so far in 2011. And, as mentioned, his career ratings would lead an alien visiting from another planet (who, oddly, is familiar with sabermetrics) to believe he’s one of the greatest defensive left fielders ever.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed with others here on this position

UZR is a controversial metric that is still at odds with many others used to judge defensive value. Statistical analysts work across multiple different statistical fronts and don’t draw conclusions from one notoriously-fickle statistic. That’s very different from what you’ve been doing on this thread.

by markrvdl on Jul 29, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

How about...

He played very good defense…. for a Cub?? (i.e., compared to the general train wreck that is the Cub way of playing “defense”.)

"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."

by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST

by fsuapollo on Jul 29, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I believe

part of the reason as well is that American players are bigger and stronger. Japanese males have smaller frames and I think this just gives them a strike against them.

Cubs 2011 59-103

by wild bill on Jul 29, 2011 9:02 AM CDT reply actions  

Ichiro is about Fukudome's size.

Doesn’t seem to bother him.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Come on Al

As you mention in your post, he is a rarity.

Cubs 2011 59-103

by wild bill on Jul 29, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he is a rarity...

How many people stay as productive as Ichiro going into their late 30’s. I believe this year might be his first year he doesn’t make 200 hits in a season.

by ubercubsfan on Jul 29, 2011 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

It may just be the fact that there are only 127MM people in Japan, and 306MM in the US.

Not to mention all of the Latin American countries that send players to MLB. MLB represents the very best players from a substantially larger population base.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Re

Ichiro is a singles hitter; the complaint about Dome is that he didn’t produce the power he was expected to.

by Jed Taylor on Jul 29, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

And Ichiro has also been more productive overall...

Fukudome has the higher ISO, but Ichiro gets a billion singles, does more on the bases, and is a better defender. If Ichiro had Fukudome’s AVG and speed, he’d be a problem too.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fukudome also walks a heck of a lot more...

especially when you take out some of the ridiculous IBBs Ichiro got at the start of his career.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, but Ichiro has consistently been 2-3 WAR per season higher offensively

And that’s in spite of having a bit less power and (as you said) a lot fewer walks.

Until this year (at 38), Ichiro has averaged over 4 oWAR per season. Fukudome has averaged about 1.5 oWAR per per season.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

And he's really struggling to keep up...

on offense and defense… and paid a heck of a lot more than Fukudome too.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

This year, at 38, yes...

every year prior, it hasn’t been close. Ichiro has been substantially better.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow...

you really think I need to be told that. I live in Seattle and LOVE Ichiro.

I know what his averages are… but just like Soriano the other day, averages are rarely pertinent… does it really matter that Soriano has averaged a 500+ SLG% for his career? Does that mean that’s what he’s worth now? Averages and %s are bad ways to measure players at the end of their careers, and easily manipulated as you’re proving.

I know that he’s 38 this year… I know next year he’ll be 39 and paid $17m, and in 2013 he’ll be 40 and paid $17m… and depending on how you look at it, still worth it.

There’s a reason that this year, so far, he has a sub 1 oWAR… he’s lost a lot of what has made him special. It was killing him earlier in the year when the Mariners were actually competing, and he just couldn’t get anything done. He’s lost his batting eye and hits with no authority anymore… and looks lost in right field a lot. I welcome him to turn it around, because he’s truly one of the special players in the history of baseball… but if you watched him play, you’d have to admit the numbers aren’t lying.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm struggling to see your point then...

Are you just arguing to argue? Since you’re such a big fan of Ichiro, you should understand that he’s been way more valuable over the last several years than Fukudome.

However, I believe you’re wrong about his salary. I think he’s a free agent this year, so I don’t think he’ll be getting $17 million next year (or the year after) if he keeps hitting like he has this year. I could be mistaken, but Cot’s Contracts says his deal ends this year.

Over the course of his contracts, Ichiro has been worth roughly as much or more than he’s been paid. Fukudome has not.

But I’m strugg

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're wrong...

But I was too… He’s signed for 2012 at $17m.

Nowhere have I come close to insinuating that Fukudome has been worth anywhere near Ichiro TO THIS POINT. But next year, I’d take Fukudome at $12m (when he’ll certainly cost less) vs Ichiro at $17m… at least in on-field value. Unless Ichiro finds a fountain of youth somewhere, he’s just plain lost most of his value except his speed… and you can’t steal first base. He’s a Hall of Famer, but that has nothing to do with how much he’ll be worth next season.

And you’re just spending way too much time reading into what I’m saying vs actually just reading what I’m saying, so I’ll just stop all further discussions. Have a nice day.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes - next year I'd rather have Fukudome for $4-5 million than Ichiro for $17

The rest of us haven’t been talking about Fukudome’s value moving forward. We’ve been talking about his value as a Cub.

I’m absolutely reading what you’re saying. I just think you’re arguing strange tangential points for no reason. But I’m happy to stop discussions if it bothers you. Have a nice day as well.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I haven't been talking about Fukudome's value going forward...

I was talking about Ichiro’s value going forward… you started making comparisons to Fukudome, not me. It does bother me that you’re reading into what I’m saying and putting words in my mouth vs reading what I’m saying… and flimsily backing up your “disagreements” to things I’m not even saying with stats based on averages which don’t have any impact on his current value… either of theirs.

There’s a reason why Ichiro is a negative WAR player this year, and it’s not based on luck. Ichiro is in trouble right now and RIGHT NOW is far worth less than Fukudome in on-field value without regarding salary. If you actually watched him play, you’d see that the numbers aren’t a lie. Given how much he values respect and honor, he might not even make it through next year if he keeps playing like this.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's really, really sad too.

I hope it’s just a bad year and he does find that fountain of youth next season when the Mariners should be much improved.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's defied age up until this year...

maybe he can defy it again next year somehow. The guy is a freak, so maybe the usual logic doesn’t apply to him. Hopefully for the Mariners that’s the case.

I’ve always been fascinated with Ichiro, because he completely defies common logic. I think he has consistently had a higher BABIP than he should, even into his mid/late 30s. I’d like to see him get to 3000 hits in the MLB. Prior to this year, I would have said it was possible (he had shown little sign of slowing down). Now, it’s looking less likely with his struggles this year.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

He had a high BABIP...

because of his extreme speed and ability to hit line drives all over the place. He’s lost the ability to take advantage of his speed and hits nothing hard anymore. That’s why he has an average BABIP this year. I actually hadn’t looked it up, and was hoping to find something below-average and was disappointed.

He doesn’t “defy logic”. He was really, really good, even in a down year, which the last 2 were… this year, he just lost it.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sue me for trying to be nice about a player you liked...

geez. I don’t expect him to bounce back. But he “defied logic” in that he consisently was able to hit line drives all over the field without hitting for a tone of power.

I’ll not try to be nice and offer optimism in the future.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're already being way too nice about Ichiro.

By giving him credit for his career averages as predictor of his current value over anybody, much less Kosuke Fukudome.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

And now you're putting words in my mouth...

please tell me where I gave Ichiro credit for his career average as a predictor of his current value. Clearly you’ve misinterpreted my posts as much as I have yours if you think that’s what I’ve done.

I’ve been talking about past performance in reference to past performance only. I’m talking about 2008 to July 2011 (the time that Fukudome was a Cub), not August 2011 and beyond.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not flimsily doing anything...

this was a discussion about Fukudome’s value – not Ichiro’s. Al brought up Ichiro, and we discussed why things have worked for Ichiro and not for Fukudome.

You went off on a tangent saying that Fukudome walks more than Ichiro, and I referenced his overall value relative to Fukudome (trying to bring it back to the thread topic). You said that Ichiro’s struggling this year, and I merely pointed out that Ichiro is getting old (and tried to bring it back to the thread topic).

And it wasn’t contentious until you made it contentious with your “wow…” post.

When you post one-line comments on a thread about Fukudome, you should expect some inference on our part that you’re talking in reference to Fukudome. Nothing I said was flimsily done. I’m sorry that I tried to keep the discussion on topic (Fukudome) and misinterpreted your tangent about Ichiro’s value moving forward.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

How is...

pointing out that you conveniently left off a significant advantage Fukudome has over Ichiro, and has consistently had over him, in any way tangential? You started the hyperbole train (a billion singles)… at least I kept things in reality without putting words in your mouth.

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Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

What does the hyperbole have to do with anything?

I don’t have a problem with any of the discussion prior to your “wow…” post. I mentioned that Fukudome has had an edge in ISO but forgot to include his BB edge. You added that. I then summarized that overall, Ichiro has had an edge in overall offensive value (which combined all the stuff we both accurately said prior).

You then got tangential in talking about Ichiro stinking this year (which was off topic). I responded that yes, he stinks this year at 38, to which you got snippy.

You didn’t put words in my mouth. You just took things off-topic without clarifying that you were or were not intending to go off topic. I made a natural assumption that your post was in the context of the discussion about Fukudome’s value to the Cubs over his career.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

BTW...

flimsy = trying to equate someone’s current value with his career averages. Over a small sample during the peak of someone’s career, you can get away with that, but he’s at the end of his career no matter how you look at it. His averages over the last four years have been far from his career averages… offensively and defensively. You keep brushing over that.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's the thing. The rest of us weren't talking about current value...

we’ve been talking about value as a Cub (i.e., over his career). Thus, comparing current value is a tangential argument.

Ichiro’s numbers the past few years (prior to this year were lower than for his career. But they were still in the 4-5 WAR range, which is still 2-3 better than Fukudome over that time. It wasn’t a flimsy arguement considering what everyone else was talking about.

This year, Fukudome has been more valuable than Ichiro. He’ll likely be more valuable next year. But that’s not what the rest of us were discussing. So in the context of the discussion my points weren’t flimsy or cherry-picked at all.

I have no disagreement that Ichiro is likely at the end of the line. But that’s completely off topic of what this whole thread was about.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm the one who started it?
And Ichiro has also been more productive overall…
Fukudome has the higher ISO, but Ichiro gets a billion singles, does more on the bases, and is a better defender. If Ichiro had Fukudome’s AVG and speed, he’d be a problem too.

The above quote is from you… not me… and not in a response to anything I said. Then when I added something complete non-tangential to your above list, you went off about his career averages, see below.

Yes, but Ichiro has consistently been 2-3 WAR per season higher offensively
And that’s in spite of having a bit less power and (as you said) a lot fewer walks.

Until this year (at 38), Ichiro has averaged over 4 oWAR per season. Fukudome has averaged about 1.5 oWAR per per season.

If you don’t bring that up Ichiro’s career value, none of this happens. You might be confusing me with the original person you responded to.

Al’s comment used Ichiro as a reason why we can’t use the Japanese player as an excuse… which leaves out how little he obviously knows about the Seattle Mariners and Ichiro, himself, since he’s generally had to worry about getting tired at the end of almost every year. It’s been a huge concern every year, even with Ichiro himself… my original response was completely on point about Ichiro actually having the problems Al was ignoring.

You brought up the rest.

Consider this a reply to your above reply.

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by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, you're the one who started it...

See my post above – it appears you think for some reason I was talking about current/future value.

I had no problem with your posts about OBP as it’s completely accurate in response to the first quote you’ve pulled. I then summarized my point and your point with the second quote you pulled of mine. In the context of what I was discussing (past performance), all three posts (yours and mine) were appropriate.

It appears that you were discussing current/future value. But that wasn’t the topic of the thread. That’s where the confusion arose. And your “wow…” response was the first contentious post.

If you re-read the thread from my perspective (past performance and not in any way about current/future value), perhaps it’ll be more clear to you why I see your “wow…” post as the one that escalated things.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

He gets off on trying to start things like this and act so innocent..pathetic..

"No matter how good you are, you're going to lose one-third of your games. No matter how bad you are you're going to win one-third of your games. It's the other third that makes the difference." — Tommy Lasorda
Fire Q & J

by KS_Cub4Life on Jul 29, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

And continuing my thought

If you’d understood that I wasn’t talking about current/future performance, you’d understand why I used career stats and stats over the past 4 years (as that was the relevant time frame for what I was discussing).

I’m sorry you misinterpreted my posts and snapped at me, and I’m sorry that I misinterpreted your posts and got snippy in return.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have no problem apologizing for my part in that...

and the tenor the conversation took afterward, but that might be the problem there in that I didn’t mean that original to have a snippy or snappy tone. If you read it as just plainly what it said, I would hope you found that too.

It clearly states that Ichiro not only has lost what has made him special throughout his career, but puts him squarely behind Fukudome this season (and almost every other RF in baseball), both in on-field value and by contract comparisons. I meant it only in that way.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

For future reference...

the words “wow you really think I need to be told that” are ALWAYS going to be read as snippy. I honestly see no other way to read that sentence.

And while the rest of that post clearly states what you say it states, that topic was not what the rest of us were talking about. When you change the conversation topic without telling others, you should try not to get snippy with them for not following you.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

In reading the comments previous to mine...

I’m not seeing how the topic should have been limited to Ichiro’s better than Fukudome over the entire last four years… I’m not even sure that the three previous years mean anything. I thought the topic had to do with whether Japanese players wore down as the season went along because they weren’t as strong as Americans.

Al incorrectly retorted with “Ichiro doesn’t have a problem”. And I corrected him and included the caveat that he makes a heck of a lot more too, basically saying that he better produce more and stay stronger than Fukudome, which he doesn’t currently. Your reponse to that was to bring up every year prior, Ichiro was more productive. More productive yes, but Ichiro still wears down as the season goes along. They’ve made a big issue out of it his whole career year. In fact, he had one of his best years ever when he missed the first 2 weeks of the season due to an injury… and has had some of his worst in years following the WBC.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

You have valid points, but that's still not what the thread was about...

The thread was about why Fukudome didn’t meet expectations as a Cub. The wearing down argument is one possible explanation, but not the overall context of the thread.

I read Al’s comment as Ichiro is a Japanese player and he has succeeded in MLB despite being smaller like Fukudome (until now that he’s gotten old, of course). You seem (I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but this is how it appears) to have fixated on the “doesn’t” choice of words rather than the idea of “hasn’t” and turned it into a current value topic. In the context of the conversation, I think it’s pretty clear that everyone else besides you was talking about Japanese players’ ability to translate to MLB and not current value.

I’m also not sure why you’re now nitpicking the last four years. I stopped at the last four years because that was the time frame that Fukudome has been in MLB. If I extended to both players’ MLB careers, the argument swings even more to Ichiro’s side (because he was at one point getting WAR well above 5 per season).

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice write up, Al.

I liked Fukudome. I liked saying his name. He seemed like a pretty classy guy but I know this had to be done. I wish him all the best in Cle.

#10 You will be missed.

by Bricks and Ivy on Jul 29, 2011 9:07 AM CDT reply actions  

With the way this season has gone.

Kosuke will go to Cleveland and hit 20 HRs, drive in 60 and have a OBP around .450 for the remainder of the year.

'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'

by Unique on Jul 29, 2011 9:09 AM CDT reply actions  

Best of luck to Kosuke

We’ll always have “FU-KU-DO-ME” – clap, clap, clapclapclap

Get 'em on, Get 'em over, Get 'em in!

by DKT on Jul 29, 2011 9:09 AM CDT reply actions  

And ROBODOME!

"Who ever heard of the Cubs losing a game they had to have?" -Frank Chance
"If [Ruth] had [called his shot], I would have knocked him down with the next pitch." -Charlie Root

by Clutch16 on Jul 29, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Darvish may be the exception that proves the rule.

He’s bigger than most Japanese athletes due to his ancestry — half Japanese, half Iranian — and is widely considered the best pitcher in Japan.

Teams are going to be leery after signings like Matsuzaka, but Darvish may be worth it.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't want the Cubs to experiment until they produce a better product.

I just don’t think the Cubs should go after anyone unless they have a proven MLB track record.

'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'

by Unique on Jul 29, 2011 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Darvish may be the best available SP on the market this year.

The market is weak and I fear the Yankees are going to drive up the price for Wilson. I’d like to see the Cubs at least inquire about Darvish.

by mic on Jul 29, 2011 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well of course that comes into play.

I heard it would be a deal similar to Chapman (which is something like 6 years/30 million).

by mic on Jul 29, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

That would be pretty reasonable.

I’d hope the Cubs would be in, at that amount.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

That would be a bargain...

His 2011 Major League Equivalent line per Oliver is 193 IP, 2.45 ERA, 0.99 WHIP, 221 Ks, 10.3 K/9, 2.0 BB/9 and 0.4 HR/9, worth 6.4 WAR, which would have made him one of the top 5 pitchers in all of MLB last season.

In a down market for starters this year, he’s going to get a huge payday… he’s much more polished than Chapman will ever be.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jul 29, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

FWIW, Darvish has been compared to Matt Cain...

That’s probably going to cost DiceK money.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jul 29, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, probably.

If he really IS as good as Matt Cain, it would actually be worth it.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I liked Kosuke.

If he had any power at all hed have been quite good. He brought great technique to the team and was pretty much an asset in all other areas. Maybe the wrist injury messed him up? Could be a guess.

I think if another potential 5 tool guy like he was advertised to be came out of Japan I’d look for the Cubs to show interest. maybe scouts or numbers improve the ability to project power.

by SenorGato on Jul 29, 2011 9:15 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

I never bought that crap that he took less from the Cubs

It’s right up there with the Trib added to Soriano’s deal. In the great lies that friendly media spreads to cover Jim Hendry’s back.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 9:15 AM CDT reply actions  

Well, you'd be wrong, then.

Proof:

The agent for the Cubs’ new right fielder confirmed today that other teams offered more money than the Cubs’ $48 million for four years, but Japanese free agent Kosuke Fukudome considered the Cubs as good a fit as the team did when making his decision.

That’s not a writer — that’s an agent confirming. And Wittenmyer has never been considered ‘friendly media’.

Try again.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

What was he supposed to say?

This Hendry guy is an idiot. I asked for 2 years at 5 million per and he offered 4/48?

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why would the agent say that if it weren't true?

You’re doing revisionist history. Fukudome was being pursued by at least four teams and there was a bidding war.

Believe what you want, but that’s the truth.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not revisionist at all

I said it as a time.

An agents motivation is simple. If you have a Big Market GM who overpays everyone he deals with my 35-50%. You obviously want to do what you can to keep a good relationship with him.

Do you think Scott Boras always has a “Mystery team” who is offering more than everyone else? Its just part of his negotiating gamesmanship.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

sorry bout them typos

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

No worries.

Agree to disagree. This wasn’t the only report that said that Kosuke was offered more by other teams. I choose to believe that.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I thought it was pretty universally accepted ...

that Kosuke took less money for a guarantee to play right. That doesn’t sound like agent BS. Maybe it would if Kosuke’s agent said he took less money JUST to play for the Cubs.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think that's correct.

The point is, he DID take less money than was offered by other teams.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've wondererd sometimes ...

whether other teams saw Kosuke as a middle-order bat. That was the biggest miscalculation.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right.

But based on his Japanese numbers, what would you have done?

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know how to answer that because I have the benefit of hindsight.

Also, I didn’t have access to the info Hendry had in the 2007 offseason. However, Hendry miscalculated in attempts to sign lefty middle-order bats in consecutive offseasons — Bradley admitted that he wasn’t an RBI guy. So misjudging Kosuke wasn’t at all isolated by our GM.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Compared him to other Japanese stars

I remember looking back at the numbers of Ichiro and the Matsuis and noticing how much their power dropped from Japan to MLB. Fukudome’s power numbers weren’t dramatically different than those of Kazuo Matsui, who obviously wasn’t a power hitter.

Ichiro and Hideki Matsui also saw substantial drops in power.

It was just a miscalculation. I suspect that MLB teams won’t be expecting the next Japanese star to have power that translates.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agree to Disagree

No harm in that at all friend.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Except...

if that GM loses out on a player because another team bid more then that does nothing to spoil any perceived GM/Agent relationship.

Also, since the Agent gets a percentage of the contract it is actually beneficial for him to steer his player to the higher deal.

by CubFan81 on Jul 29, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

exactly

which is why I didn’t believe he took less from Chicago. It’s not like the Cubs had a great tradition of Asian ballplayers? It’s not like Wrigley is such a comfortable environment for a ballplayer in general.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

You can see why they wanted that though...

Supposedly good defender with a plus bat and plus power to man CF? Would’ve been a dream if he lived up to the hype. But you’re right, he’d have been a disaster if that happened.

Too bad the White Sox didn’t get him for 15M to play CF for 4+ years.

by bdlugz on Jul 29, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

A favorable relationship with that GM

You surely notice how complimentary the Mega Agents always are with Jim Hendry? Having such a terrible business man in Hendry’s position has made lots of agents and players very rich.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is a bit of a stretch

Hendry is by all accounts a very down to earth “let’s do a deal over a beer” type of guy. He is highly regarded by agents because he makes people comfortable and they feel more like his friend than someone dealing with him. Now… you can argue that’s also not a good thing necessarily, but to say that agents like him because he’s willing to pay over market value every time is simply doesn’t make sense.

by bdlugz on Jul 29, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Would ANYONE consider Hendry a shrewd negotiator or hard bargain driver?

Bottom line is that he routinely overpays anyone he signs by 35-50%. I feel agents care more about the bottom line pocket lining over how friendly and cordial that Jim Hendry the person is.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Your percentages are pretty random and way off.

You’re really going to argue that Hendry routinely overpays by 35 to FIFTY percent?! If that were the case every free agent would simply line up outside his office waiting to sign the paper.

I’m not sitting in on these negotiations, so I won’t judge what I have no idea on. Do I think Hendry is a good GM right now? No, and I think we need to get rid of him. But some of your claims are just based on nothing and you’re really grasping at straws.

by bdlugz on Jul 29, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

In the aggregate, absolutely!

In many, many of our FA signings, too. But in the aggregate, we’re looking at a 70 win team that will cost $130MM+.

If we leave the cost-controlled players out of the calculus, I think that 35% overpayment is going to be a conservative estimate.

MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown

by D98 on Jul 29, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're talking about overpaying their ACTUAL value as opposed to their market value

That’s a whole different story. Then we’re discussing him properly evaluating talent, which I won’t disagree with. I was viewing it as if Hendry was literally paying 35-50% more than the 2nd best offer on the table, which is ridiculous.

Overall, a win should cost around 4.5-5 million according to fangraphs, which Hendry is not doing a good job of maintaining.

by bdlugz on Jul 29, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair to say you have weighed in now...

Wasn’t the sainted John McDonough responsible for signing off on the contracts that Hendry signed? Because he’s gone? Soriano was a McDonough deal, period.

"Very definitely..." R. Santo
"Play the game..." K. Moreland

by Dan Serafini on Jul 29, 2011 9:48 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

McDonough was gone by the time Kosuke signed.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

yep...Its on Hendry....

And if he wants to blame club presidents for things…Why is Crane still here?

by TJ11 on Jul 29, 2011 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

McDonough was also gone when MB signed.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because Crane

has no where else to go in the world of baseball.

by cubs north on Jul 29, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're dang right you've been traveling!

Speeding up to Milwaukee to pick up Kosuke at his hotel and drive him to General Mitchell International Airport so he can make his flight to Cleveland. I hope you at least stopped at the newly renovated Mars Cheese Castle on the way back.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

hahahah

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Renovated, nothing. It's a new building

They let them keep the old sign, though.

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by Shanghai Badger on Jul 29, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

But...but...it really looks like a castle now!

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

It does, indeed.

And they had to give them some kind of waiver for the sign. I don’t remember why.

Fire Jim Hendry. Injuries aren't the problem.

by Shanghai Badger on Jul 29, 2011 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

how many players signed or traded by Hendry ended up leaving prematurely? and yet Hendry is still employed!

That’s why i truly feel Ricketts will let Hendry complete his contract at least. He is not a cut-throat owner that demands positive results…..he hopes and that is a big difference BTW the two….

He is also too loyal which is bad for a business that demands and expects winning……

Two Words: Salty Saltwell

by Unclemike on Jul 29, 2011 10:59 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

It's more than just the guys who leave early

It’s been the systematic devaluing of each and every guys trade value before they are dealt. Think about the high end value versus the eventual trade haul of

Sosa
Wuertz
Pie
Cedeno
Marquis
Wellmeyer
Mitre

Just off the top of my head.

Add in that he refuses to get Free Agent comp picks and routinely does favors for the players ahead of doing right by the franchise.

Bottom line is that Jim Hendry is a really nice guy that just doesn’t have the cutthroat attitude. Or testicular fortitude by nature to be in a position of authority.

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jul 29, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good point.
Add in that he refuses to get Free Agent comp picks and routinely does favors for the players ahead of doing right by the franchise.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pitching - Japan vs. US/MLB

I suspect the caliber of pitching here is simply much better than in Japan. That will likely explain both the falloff Japanese hitters experience here and the lack of success for Japanese pitchers.

And I am sorry to see Fukudome go. Not because I like seeing someone fall short of expectations because the pitching here was simply far better than he ever had to face back home, but because he seemed like a genuinely good guy, as well as a class act on the field. He does not deserve the scapegoat status many here seem to want to pin on him.

I wish him well in Cleveland and beyond.

by MN exile on Jul 29, 2011 9:56 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I think relative to his expectations and contract, he was a disappointment...

But I don’t think the expectations were fair. Unfortunately for him, that’s the way it works. According to Fangraphs, the guy was worth $25.6 million over his time with the Cubs. But he cost ~$47 million for the Cubs. That’s a substantial miscalculation of value.

He wasn’t a terrible player. He just wasn’t what people expected and he wasn’t worth what he got paid (in terms of on the field production – I’m sure his value was increased by jersey sales and initial marketing). Thus, he was a disappointment.

I agree that I don’t think it was a cultural thing, because the only thing that didn’t translate was the power.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rec'd.

This is a thought I’ve had many times over the past few years: That Kosuke had simply spent too many years in NBP and his deeply ingrained, fundamental baseball skills were just too accustomed to that style of play for him to easily adapt to MLB. Add to this the fact that he was over 30 and in the typical “slow decline” phase of a player’s career and it’s really not shocking that he wasn’t the superstar the Cubs had hoped for.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

The age could have been a part of it.

The big disappointment for me was the speed. He was never as fast as I would have expected. I didn’t expect the HR power but outside of 38 doubles in 2009, he never produced the doubles I expected. I envisioned him as a 40 doubles type of player.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Jul 29, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

He wasn't really a speed guy in Japan either...

His career-high in SB in Japan was 13, but was typically in the 8-10 range. His value was supposed to be high OBP, 15-20 HR, lots of 2B, and great defense. He ended up providing high OBP, okay defense (great for a year), and none of the power. Of course, people should have seen the lack of HR power. I agree about the 2B.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, when I said speed I was mostly thinking about the doubles.

40 doubles usually encompasses a combination of power and speed. I didn’t expect SB’s but he just never seemed fast to me even for “doubles speed”.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Jul 29, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, as I said in a comment below...

Imagine if the Cubs had signed him after the 2005 season. We’d have had Kosuke in the prime of his career from age 29 to 33, and likely for far less money.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jul 29, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

One other item of note:

Kosuke used an interpreter not a translator. The language community is sensitive about the difference between the two.

by mic on Jul 29, 2011 10:06 AM CDT reply actions  

What is the difference?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Interpreter --> spoken language

Translator —> written language

by mic on Jul 29, 2011 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

So, one interprets and the other translates?

got it!

I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best

by Blue W on Jul 29, 2011 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

I too wish him well and always felt good

about Fuk in the field. I wonder if his transition would have been easier if the Cubs would have recognized early what exactly they had. We batted him third, bottom if the order, played him in center, batted him first. His role was ever changing and I realize that was a product of hindsight. But I doubt he was ever comfortable until the past season when his role was clear. I wish him well and was not a.Fuk basher…. he was what he was. Now let’s learn from this and move on.

We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 for Hall of Fame.

by mrcubsfan on Jul 29, 2011 10:14 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Al, I thought it was an elbow injury he had in 2007...

I also heard that before the elbow injury he had a stronger arm than Ichiro.

by cubfanwill on Jul 29, 2011 10:47 AM CDT reply actions  

You may be right about the elbow.

I thought I had heard wrist. In either case, it does seem to have affected him.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

It was his elbow (right elbow)...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Kosuke_Fukudome

It may or may not have negatively affected his career, but I’m sure it didn’t help at all.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the clarification.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I remember seeing some plays in the OF from him

I did a lot of searching up on him when we signed. He had a tremendous arm from what I could tell despite the poor quality of the videos. Although – I still would hesitate to say it was better then Ichiro – then again to even be thought of in the same breathe is such a compliment.

The greatest throw I ever saw in person was by Vladimer Guerroro in RF throwing a rope to 3B. I can still remember it like it was yesterday.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry

by Hammer on Jul 29, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I remember one of those videos.

He threw a runner out at first on a clean single to right field.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was really hoping he'd do that at least once with the Cubs.

Guess not.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Can you imagine if Dome has a killer run with Cleveland into the playoffs?

This place will be on it’s ear.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure.

But that has maybe a 1% chance of happening.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Solid Player

Solid 1980’s player. Better than Keith Moreland, who started a lot in right.

by Curt Myers on Jul 29, 2011 10:52 AM CDT reply actions  

1980s?

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Defensively Yes, Offensively No On Comparison with Moreland

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Jul 29, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

His numbers remind me of someone from that decade. Low BA, low HR. Solid.

by Curt Myers on Jul 29, 2011 10:54 AM CDT reply actions  

Hm, interesting point. Hadn't thought of it that way.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Culture Issue

Obviously just my opinion but I think the culture issue is entirely overblown. While I’m certain it isn’t easy coming over from Japan and having to learn a new language and customs and all of that…why is then assumed that the middling American players that go over to Japan seem to have success in their pro leagues? Certainly the argument can’t be made that coming from Japan to the U.S. is harder than the converse of that.

For that matter, the same argument fails for the players from the Domincan or Venezuela or any other non-Americanized culture. (Points taken away because of the baseball factories some of organizations have in those countries.)

I think the bottom line is that Japanese players just are not as individually talented as players from other countries, including the U.S. Sure that is a generalization but the numbers bear it out…the Japanese skill-set just does not translate well into MLB. And while the WBC thing was not real MLB-type baseball, I’m talking only about individual skill-sets and not any sort of team-oriented approach that Japan may do better than other places.

Kosuke struggled because Kosuke just wasn’t a top line major league hitter. I don’t think you have to look further than that or what his country of origin was.

"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder

by krummy12 on Jul 29, 2011 11:11 AM CDT reply actions  

No disagreement but I think age plays into too.

He was already 31. For many players especially in the post-steroids era, they are already on the downward slope of their career. His numbers (.262 / .369 / .403) weren’t horrible but they were well below expectations.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Jul 29, 2011 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Dominican/Venezuelan culture...

… is much more similar to American culture than Japan is. It’s easier to assimilate for Spanish-speaking players — most US cities have large Spanish-speaking communities. Not so much with Japanese players.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Japanese Players In America Tend to Be...

with teams located in cities with decent-sized Japanese-American populations. At least they start their American major league careers in cities with high Japanese populations.

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Jul 29, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

To Be Consistent...

The first sentence should read, “Japanese players in America tend to with teams located in cities with large Japanese-American populations.”

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Jul 29, 2011 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't Think There's A Large Japanese Population in Cleveland, But...

I’m making the point that Kosuke began his MLB career in Chicago, which has to have a much larger Japanese population than Cleveland.

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Jul 29, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure.

But by comparison, that community is still far smaller than any Dominican/Venezuelan/Puerto Rican Spanish-speaking community in Chicago, or any other American city, for that matter.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

You make a very good argument, Al...

Though imagine signing him in 2005, post-Sammy Sosa. I can’t imagine we’d be giving him this sort of rough treatment. If he had the chance to play here on the crest of his prime, his power would have likely been there and he likely wouldn’t have cost $48 mil.

Proud recipient of a hot dog shot from the Iowa Cubs hot dog gun.

by IowaCubs- on Jul 29, 2011 11:13 AM CDT reply actions  

The actual reason is very simple: The US game is very different because we don't use a rule book strike zone.

He spent his time here trying to cover a much wider plate and lower strike zone than Japan uses. This is because MLB has allowed their umpires to distort the strike zone to their own discretion, which has now become a tradition carried down to the lower ranks. The same thing would probably happen if Ted Williams were brought back to play today. He would struggle making constant adjustments to cover the extremely wide and short strike zone.

by Jerry Mumphrey on Jul 29, 2011 11:16 AM CDT reply actions  

A little harsh on Johjima and Dome

To call them failures is a little extreme. There’s a world of difference between those guys and the likes of Kaz Matsui.

For two years at least Johjima was a top 10 offensive catcher (.291/.332/.451 w/ 18 HRs in 2006; .287/.322/.433 w/ 14 HRs in 2007). That he declined after that isn’t too surprising, he was a catcher and was already 29 by the time he got to this league.

Anyways, point being that he and Dome were pretty solid players in this league, and likely could have both had long MLB careers if they had started off here instead of coming over after playing the bulk of a full career in the NBP.

by Orval Overall on Jul 29, 2011 11:17 AM CDT reply actions  

In addition

I’ve been on record with this before from a first-person account offered to me by a former Mariner player…Johjima was easily the most disliked Mariner in the clubhouse during his time there. No matter whether his numbers were good or bad, Seattle was ecstatic when he returned home.

"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder

by krummy12 on Jul 29, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

OMG

WEREGONNAGETFELIX!!!!!11

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

BIG THINGS ARE IN THE WORKS!!!!!

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

he'd be their best hitter

I personally believe that damaged ligaments and tendons (among other abrasions) aren't the reason for the team playing so poorly relative the rest of Major League Baseball, so accordingly, James Hendry should be relieved of his highly important duties as General Manager of the Chicago Cubs franchise.

by jesus christos on Jul 29, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

The issue now is

Are we better without Kosuke? IMO, we are not.

The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney

by SouthWabashSoul on Jul 29, 2011 11:22 AM CDT reply actions  

Are we $14.5 million worse?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sadly, I'd say we're not immediately better...

…but it doesn’t really matter.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not better this year, no.

But that doesn’t really matter.

FIRE JIM HENDRY. Injuries aren't the problem.

by shoemile on Jul 29, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

no...

We will be better once we get rid of the people.accountable for this mess

Two Words: Salty Saltwell

by Unclemike on Jul 29, 2011 12:54 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Agreed

And find legitimate difference makers on the field from somewhere because there are very, very few of them currently toiling anywhere in this organization.

"When the day comes with that last winning run and I'm crying and covered in beer. I'll look to the sky and know I was right to think someday we'll go all the way." - Vedder

by krummy12 on Jul 29, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, say what you want about Kaz Matsui

Guy got hot for a month and carried the Rockies to a WS.

The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney

by SouthWabashSoul on Jul 29, 2011 11:23 AM CDT reply actions  

Matsui didn't carry the Rockies to that World Series

He was actually pretty poor in September of that year and pretty bad in the NLCS and World Series. He had a very nice NLDS.

But that team was carried offensively by Holliday, Helton, Tulowitzki, and Hawpe. It also included better offensive players in Atkins, Spillbourghs, and Taveras. Matsui was arguably the worst offensive player among the Rockies’ regulars in 2007 (in one of his best years in the MLB).

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Kaz Began MLB Career with the Mets

I just want to make the point that while he did end up playing with the Rockies that he started his MLB career with the Mets, in a city with a large Japanese population.

Good things come to those who wait... and wait....and wait.

by memphiscub on Jul 29, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, Matsui was signed by the Mets originally...

and wound up with the Astros in the end. His stop in Colorado was actually his shortest stay anywhere. I only ever brought him up because he was another guy who people expected way more power from than he actually produced, and had similar power numbers to Fukudome in his last few years in Japan.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I liked Dome

and his patience at the plate. it seemed to translate to other players (sometimes)..but personally am aware that i have 3 Cubs jerseys. two are now for players no longer there – DLee and Dome.. guess it’s time to get some new ones.

GoCubsGo

by MinnesotaFan on Jul 29, 2011 11:49 AM CDT reply actions  

I don't think it needs to end...

…but I’d guess that the MLB careers of Kosuke and probably Dice-K are going to make teams a lot more wary of giving huge contracts to NPB players. Or at least older ones.

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the Boston Matsuzaka issue was a little different

Boston overpaid mostly because the Yankees were interested too, and they had to keep him from going to New York. While Fuk had other interested parties, any of those teams getting him (had he been as advertised) wouldn’t have really made a difference to the Cubs.

The Red Sox did get one good year out of Matsuzaka, which could’ve been a year with the Yankees.

by timmyfan on Jul 29, 2011 12:26 PM CDT reply actions  

I remember the excitement many had for

his first season. I also remember his first homerun at Wrigley and the high hopes many of us had for him. Really too bad it didn’t work out. I wish him the best at his new club.

Be the kind of woman that when your feet hit the ground each morning the devil says, "OH CRAP, SHE'S UP"!

by sue369 on Jul 29, 2011 12:59 PM CDT reply actions  

I remember driving home from work -

I was at Irving Park and Clark. I remember yelling to several fans that left early that he tied the game. Don’t leave the games early.

"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry

by Hammer on Jul 29, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why not...the Cubs do.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, now.

But in 2008? Not so much.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

My thoughts are

that he didn’t meet our expectations offensively or defensively for the money he was making.

Age, difference in ballparks and level of competition he played against, are all factors.
The bigger issue, however, is that this is just another example of Hendry’s misadventures in evaluating baseball talent.

If you think you've seen it all...just wait!

by CubFanSince1970 on Jul 29, 2011 1:00 PM CDT reply actions  

Fukudome was the straw that broke the camel's toe for me with buying the lines we were being fed from the front office.

I stopped drinking the kool-aid shortly after realizing how much they miscalculated what kind of players he could be.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

The camel's what, now?

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Toe. It's on the lower half.

I spent 90% of my money on women and drink. The rest I wasted - George Best

by Blue W on Jul 29, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok, so we've certainly discussed Fukudome at length...

…perhaps this horse is close to dead. But speaking of Fukudome and trades, does anyone else besides me believe the Cubs have zero chance at doing any more trades beyond dumping Grabow, Pena, Byrd or Johnson for B prospects? There was all this buzz earlier in the week about some team taking Soriano, but could this possibly happen? Could we somehow be that fortunate to have that happen? Or is all that Hendry is doing is hitchiking somewhere on the Pennsylvania turnpike to the Bronx with Soriano and Zambranos 2012-2013 contract money saying “pleaaaseee takeee theeeessee guysss”?

by jtcitrus on Jul 29, 2011 1:20 PM CDT reply actions  

What buzz?

I think most of it was made by bored bloggers and columnists. I really doubt that Hendry is having any serious discussions around Soriano.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Jul 29, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just wondering

Was his interpreter part of the trade?

Yeah, I know there should be an apostrophe in "Vails," but punctuation wasn't an option when I signed up.

by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Jul 29, 2011 1:21 PM CDT reply actions  

I assume so.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do we get, like, a trainer to be named later from the Indians?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

At least it will save the Cubs a few more bucks

And I have to wonder what the interpreter’s reaction was when he found out he was going to have to move to Cleveland. That had to be an unpleasant shock.

Yeah, I know there should be an apostrophe in "Vails," but punctuation wasn't an option when I signed up.

by Mike Vails Evil Twin on Jul 29, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Really...

…so you’re a GM looking to make a great trade deadline splash, then come back to your anxious and excited fanbase, and you say, guess what “we got Alfonso Soriano!” To which they reply, “Groan…Grumble…”. Then you speak louder and say, “but we only had to pay $3 million of his $18 million per year!!”.

C’mon, how really could a GM looking to elevate his team go thru this sort of process?

by jtcitrus on Jul 29, 2011 1:23 PM CDT reply actions  

Probably one of the only players I haven't passionately despised over the last four years.

Not his fault we paid too much.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jul 29, 2011 1:45 PM CDT reply actions  

I think there are a ton of players I haven't passionately despised...

Basically, I didn’t like Bradley and it annoyed me that Ramirez seemed so lazy (but I loved the fact that he was one of the best 3-5 3B in the game for us over the years). Fukudome falls in the Soriano category of “seems like a nice guy, but is part of the problem in terms of being way overpaid for his production.”

I don’t blame Fukudome for taking the contract he was offered, but his lack of production (relative to salary) has definitely been part of the problem the last several years.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

The thing that I really liked about Dome was that he didn't make stupid plays.

My old high school coach used to say he could stand the physical errors—dropped pop-ups or grounders taking a bad hop, but he couldn’t stand the mental errors like forgetting to tag or not running out a play or slacking off on the base paths. Dome never did of that stuff, and for that I liked him.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jul 29, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's really sad that the one reason we have to like a Major Lague Baseball Player on the team we like...

is that he simply doesn’t make stupid mistakes all the time.

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is what we've been lowered to.

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jul 29, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I really don't think that it's faint praise...

Baseball is just NOT an easy sport, and to NEVER make those mental errors really requires a great deal of focus, a definite skill. Kosuke was a real pro, not worth the $ he got paid, but a guy I’d like to have on any team I played on.

by daily2b on Jul 29, 2011 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

So, anyone have any ideas for a new SBN handle?

A friend of mine suggested Abreuometer, but it just doesn’t click.

Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08

by Fukudometer on Jul 29, 2011 1:55 PM CDT reply actions  

Meh. Stay with what you have.

My handle is an old nickname for Felix Pie.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ugh. I know.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

My top 10....in no particular order..

MeatSqueeze

ChocolateSquirrel

Vanessa

SanFransiscoHandcuffs

FlapJackSparrow

BuzzardPuss

Nigel61472

OvaltineJenkins

Sinbad

LeglessVampirePuppet

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

"OvaltineJenkins"?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

what?

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is that a reference I'm missing?

Or just funny randomness?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

random reference you're missing...

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Care to elaborate?

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

i came....

As I've told you before, I never repeat myself.

by santoswoodenlegs on Jul 29, 2011 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

wow.

always hated that song. they made me like that song. do i hate TMBG now?

by epsilon on Jul 29, 2011 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

DJ LeLame

0-ToolCampana

SmokeEmIfYerSoto

"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks

by dtpollitt on Jul 29, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Castrometer?

Baseball is pitching, hitting, baserunning and defense.

by daver on Jul 29, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

this is the leading candidate

Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08

by Fukudometer on Jul 29, 2011 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

FWIW...

… Fukudome is playing right field for the Indians tonight… and batting SIXTH.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 2:38 PM CDT reply actions  

I dunno.

But I do know people here were saying he should have been hired as Cubs manager.

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by Al Yellon on Jul 29, 2011 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

That makes me wonder ...

would Sandberg have done a better job than Quade? Has there been any discussion of that?

;)

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh gosh.

Cue NBF and/or Puckishcubsfan.

Minor League Contributing Writer, Athletics Nation.

State high point count: 4/50

If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.

by Vermont Cubs Fan on Jul 29, 2011 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

For the Cubs

Fukudome was the best option for leadoff when he played. Leaving him there was one of the good things Quade did.

John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.

by rlpete on Jul 29, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed...

kudos to Quade for getting that right. Fukudome as a leadoff made some solid sense (especially on this team).

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

In comparison, Lou only led off with Kosuke for a sustained period AFTER the Cubs traded Ryan Theriot. The last eight games of Lou were also the longest period of Kosuke leading off, until this year.

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't give him too much credit...

he was hitting 7th and 8th at one point this year, and it drove me nuts.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Against LHP, I'm fine with seing Fukudome bat 7th/8th...

if it was against RHP, I think that would be a stupid move. But Fukudome’s OBP versus LHP isn’t all that desirable.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes... it was against RHPs too.

Except for a few late-game appearances, Fukudome has very few starts against LHPs this year… as it should be.

--------------------------------
Just North of Wrigley Field

by jameslcrockett on Jul 29, 2011 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Then I agree that that is dumb...

I haven’t followed the day-to-day lineup closely enough this year. I’m guessing a lot of those came with Castro leading off. But that is still definitely dumb.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

(thunderclap)

Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

by elgato on Jul 29, 2011 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe I should

go out of town more often. Woke up this morning to find out that Kosuke has been traded. Now when is Soriano being traded? LOL I know wishful thinking, but a gal can dream!

by Swoosie on Jul 29, 2011 3:00 PM CDT reply actions  

I think I'm gonna follow him more closely now...just like I follow The Great One (Sam Fuld)

"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.

by zevkalman on Jul 29, 2011 3:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Cultural question:

Didnt i hear not long ago, I think in reference to daisuke Matsuzaka, that its considered Honorable for a Japanese pitcher to pitch it right down the middle?

by epsilon on Jul 29, 2011 3:59 PM CDT reply actions  

i mean not throwing meat

but the thought was not so much deception as much as your best Vs. My best…

by epsilon on Jul 29, 2011 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Many of the Japanese pitchers have had high walk rates...

(see Matsuzaka and Nomo), so I’m not sure I buy that theory.

by SouthernCub on Jul 29, 2011 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

I’m glad I got to attend a game with Fukudome, even if it was only one.

It allowed me to yell “FUKUDOME! ICHIBAN!” Which I’d wanted to do ever since we signed him.

Hope he plays well for the Tribe.

"This is a football." "Slow down, coach! You're goin' too fast!"

by Cool Hand on Jul 29, 2011 4:19 PM CDT reply actions  

He did everything well, or so it seemed at first:

Hit w/ some pop, ran the bases smartly, played good D, good plate discipline. I was hoping he’d rub off on the other players! Then he wallowed in mediocrity for 3.5 years.

It always appeared to me that he was scared of getting hit by a pitch. (That helicopter swing would get him benched in Little League games.) Could be wrong, but I wonder if they don’t come inside as much in Japan. If I’m playing the Indians in the playoffs, I’d come inside early on him and get him off balance. I’m sure the differences listed above were a big part of his struggles.

Class act, I wish him well!

"I showed him the cheese then punched him out with the yakker." -- Eck

by kentmeister on Jul 29, 2011 5:09 PM CDT reply actions  

I am sad to see him go

But this was the right time to do it he is having the best season of career bases on WAR. His value was as high as it will get.

"You know, we always called each other good fellas. Like you said to, uh, somebody, :You're gonna like this guy. He's all right. He's a good fella. He's one of us.: You understand? We were good fellas. Wiseguys."

by HawkCub on Jul 29, 2011 6:58 PM CDT reply actions  

His grasp of baseball fundamentals

was better than most of his Cubs teammates. He was a good fielder in a difficult right field at Wrigley, a good baserunner, and knew how to work the count. If he had been signed for $3 mil a year we would have loved him. Lots of his teammates contributed lots less to the Cubs. Our expectations (and Hendry’s) were way too high.

BTW, he seemed to have picked up quite a bit of English over the years, as I saw him talking to coaches and teammates. Still, he used his interpreter for interviews, which is understandable.

The purpose of this deal at this time was to clear the way for whomever will play right field next season. I hope he has a great 10 weeks in Cleveland.

by Clark Addison on Jul 29, 2011 6:59 PM CDT reply actions  

Goodwill is getting a jersey from me sometime soon

I almost bought a Colvin for $65 at my local sporting goods store. On a deep discount since he was at Iowa at the time.
As far as the social element. Yeah, I understand being away from home, but do the miles matter any more than the miles any player from Latin America travels to make it to the pro’s? I thought Chicago actually had a decent sized Japanese community. I think his baseball skills just were vastly overrated.

by Nibbles on Jul 29, 2011 9:59 PM CDT reply actions  

im

all for trading koskue but getting a couple of crappy prospects and paying most of his salary.i dont get it.are the cubs that hard up for money that they spend millions to save half a million?this organization really needs a kick in the ass.

by NOMAR on Jul 30, 2011 6:41 AM CDT reply actions  

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