Chicago Cubs vs. Chicago White Sox Preview, Sunday 7/3, 1:20 CT: Say No To Retread Pitchers
by Al Yellon on Jul 3, 2011 11:00 AM CDT
in Chicago Cubs Game Threads
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I am at a complete loss to understand why Rodrigo Lopez -- and on Tuesday, replacing Carlos Zambrano, Ramon Ortiz -- are part of the 2011 Cubs.
The Cubs are far out of contention. There's no way these two pitchers, who had about one good season each, can help them get back there. Essentially, you are simply throwing away games by starting pitchers like this.
Casey Coleman is 24 years old (today, in fact, is his 24th birthday). Admittedly, in the starts he's made for the Cubs this year, he's been pretty bad. But at 24, it is possible he could help the team in the future. With them going nowhere this season, isn't it time to try to get young players into the mix to see what they can do? Maybe Coleman won't be any good in a three-month trial and then the Cubs can make other plans for 2012. But maybe he'd get into some kind of rhythm and pitch well for three months -- well then, you might have something for next year and beyond.
The start today by Lopez and Tuesday by Ortiz are wastes of time. Even if somehow the Cubs manage to eke out a win, or either of those men throws well once, what difference does it make? Neither will be part of this team next year.
I just don't get it.
Cubs lineup:
Fukudome RF, Barney 2B, Castro SS, Ramirez 3B, Peña 1B, Byrd CF, Soriano LF, Soto C, Lopez P
Again, with Castro batting third, where he's most likely to fail.
White Sox lineup:
Pierre lf, Ramirez ss, Dunn 1b, Quentin rf, Pierzynski c, Rios cf, Teahen 3b, Beckham 2b, Floyd p
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Rodrigo Lopez faced three White Sox hitters in relief on June 21 at the Cell. He got Omar Vizquel to pop up, gave up a double to Carlos Quentin and then intentionally walked Paul Konerko before he was taken out. Before that he had not faced the Sox since 2006; in five career starts against the Sox he has a 10.57 ERA and 2.09 WHIP. Remind me again why this guy is starting, or even on the team?
The Cubs hit Gavin Floyd pretty good on June 20 at the Cell, including home runs from Starlin Castro and Carlos Pena. His last start at Wrigley Field was a lot better than that; on June 13, 2010 he gave up just one run in eight innings, but got outpitched by Ted Lilly in a 1-0 Cubs win. I'll take the 2011 version, please.
Today's game is on CSN Chicago (with Len & Bob) and WGN (with the Sox announcers). Here is the complete MLB.com Mediacenter for today.
Baseball-reference.com game preview
Please visit our SB Nation White Sox site South Side Sox. The usual caution is advised.
Today's first pitch thread will be up at 1:15 pm CDT and the overflow threads will post at 2:15 pm, 3:15 pm and 4 pm CDT. If you need more overflows due to extra innings or rain delays, post them in the fanshot section.
Discuss amongst yourselves.
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Al I know you...
tend to harp on things and continue to repeat certain opinions over and over…but in this case with Castro’s splits, please continue to do so. I had no idea the splits were so drastic. Apparently Quade also has no clue…which is maddening.
by kanderber on Jul 3, 2011 11:06 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Why is Castro likely to fail in the 3-hole?
Any splits based on lineup position have such small samples sizes at this point for Castro that they have no predictive value for future performance.
Is there a more fundamental reason why Castro will perform worse in the 3-hole?
He's not
The reason the splits are so drastic is that when he was batting 1st and 2nd for most of his ABs there, he was on a hot streak; he would’ve hit well anywhere he batted. Because of that, he earned the right to bat 3rd, and when he had a predictable slump he was batting 3rd. Combine that with a 15% drop in BAbip, there’s your split. Castro’s a confident hitter, I doubt where he bats matters at all
Yep... it's just luck.
He got lucky when he was hitting 1st and he’s not getting lucky hitting 3rd. Until he learns better plate discipline, it won’t matter where he bats. Eventually, luck, good and bad, will catch up with him.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Castro's long-term lineup position
It will be interesting to see where he ends up long term.
Castro hits tons of groundballs (nearly 2:1 GB:FB). Because he hits so many hard grounders, he hits into a lot of double plays (4th most in NL), despite his speed. This is a trend that goes back to last year, as well. Because of this, he would optimally bat directly after players who get on base least frequently (the pitcher), making him a lead-off candidate, though he doesn’t possess stereotypical lead-off skills. The Yankees took this approach with Jeter, who also hit tons of hard grounders and struggled with the double play, and it helped him to reduce his GDPs.
It worked better with the Yankees...
because their lineup is so good it really doesn’t matter who hits where. Teams like the Cubs have to worry about it a little more than that.
It’s a quandary with Castro. He doesn’t have the skills to bat leadoff. 2nd is really the best spot for him, but it really won’t matter until Jackson or another replacement comes in and succeeds replacing Fukudome, who has been very successful leading off.
It’s not right to put a flawed hitter higher in the lineup just to avoid hitting double plays, especially when the guys the Cubs would put in his spot are just as likely to hit double plays. It’s a chess concept: you don’t sacrifice a piece for a piece when you need every piece you can get. The Yankees can afford to do that. The Cubs cannot.
Castro needs guys on base in front of him to be worth anything. The Cubs just need to get guys who do that better, especially when Fukudome leaves at the end of the year. Castro’s position will rely heavily on what adjustments he makes at the major league level, the skills he develops, and the players the Cubs acquire to fill out the rest of the roster.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Like I said before,
I don’t always agree with Mr. Yellon, but in the case of shittastic, fucktabulous Rodrigo Lopez, I absolutely do. He has no place in a Major League roster.
[I apologize for my language. Baby.]
"I'm not a broadcaster! I'm me!"--Ron Santo
+1
Awesome adjectives! I shall use these to describe the fireworks display on Monday… be damned city budget cuts!
by socalicubsfan on Jul 3, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
There really is no sane reason for
wasting a perfectly good Sunday or the rest of the summer on this sorry team. By August people will be hating this team as much as the 2006 Cubs.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
Not that you asked or care, but I hate this team way more than the 2006 version.
"I'm not a broadcaster! I'm me!"--Ron Santo
20 games under by the break
is unfortunately a real possibility. What’s not to love?
There goes one over the fence...a Tru-Link fence.
by truelinkfence on Jul 3, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs hate their fans
Witness: Rodrigo and now Ortiz
Witness: Castro batting 3rd
Witness: James Russell being trotted out as a starter
Witness: Doug Davis
Witness: Quade
Profanity laden typing goes here aimed at Hendry, Quade, and the organization.
I'm going to the 2012 Randy Hundley Fantasy Camp!!! Who's with me?
How about something simple, like one W over the Sox?
We'll miss you Big Boy. #10 for Hall of Fame.
by mrcubsfan on Jul 3, 2011 11:24 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Who cares
With Q being a dumbass and batting castro 3rd whats the difference. Its obvious Hendry still thinks we are in it. They both think somehow after 4 years Fuku will figure it out. Not sure what the big deal is with barney that he has to bat 2nd? If Q wants him there that bad put castro at leadoff. They had the balls to bat sori lower why not fuku? We stinks.
Cubs All-Star selection coming up!
Everybody get stoked.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
but who else could it have been?
marshall?
castro’s near the top of the NL in a statistical category, at least. he’s got some hits. maybe it’ll help his confidence, since he’s not gaining any where he currently is in the lineup.
by philly incoherent on Jul 3, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
based on the terrible NL 3rd basemen number this year
Aramis could’ve/should’ve been an AS. his numbers are better than Chippers
Say no to retread pitchers and drugs!
I happened upon a roadside fireworks stand yesterday in of all places the great state of Illinois that had some pretty fantastic stuff. So I’m going to have a loud, festive, colorful 4th with the family.
Have a great 4th of July everyone and stay safe.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
I am going to the zoo today
And I hate going to the zoo. But now I don’t have to watch RoLo give up multiple HRs.
"Very definitely..." R. Santo
by Dan Serafini on Jul 3, 2011 11:30 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
I'm not sure what I'm thinking....
…but, I’d almost rather see James Russell start than Rodrigo Lopez or Ramon Ortiz.
Absolutely
This is why I was ok with Russell starting earlier in the year over these clowns. Much as Marmol started a lot when he was a rookie. Force him to work on his secondary pitches.
Doug Davis, I thought maybe he had something left in the tank, so I was ok with that experiment.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 3, 2011 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
So it is better to let Coleman get rocked over and over
Than use a retread? I am pretty sure you don’t support starting Colvin who when last seen was betting .105, how is this so different? The best one hopes out of Lopez & Ortiz is someone who can eat FIVE innings. If Coleman or any other not ready for prime time player comes up and gives up 6 runs in three inning, you are not only out of the game, you have to use your already overused bullpen. IF the Cubs had a decent prospect or two who MIGHT be ready then fine, but they don’t. Who exactly would you want for a 5th starter if Coleman was the 4th? Cubs basically don’t have options here. Kill a kid or use a retread. I vote for using a retread who can go 5 innings and give up less then 5 runs.
My problem is not the dumpster diving they do now, it is of course the great Gorzo trade. To add insult to injury as it were, Gorzo now has a virtually identical ERA & WHIP to Garza, I am not saying he is anywhere as good as Garza , but he should NOT have been traded. They never had the depth.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
They had plenty of depth
Find me a team that’s prepared to use an MLB-ready (and good) player as its sixth or seventh option.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't know how you can say they had plenty of depth when they didn't even have a sixth option.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Depth
Hmm Looper, Silva, Coleman. Find me a team willing to trade a viable starter for a washed up first round pick (and the Pirates under Littlefield don’t count).
Um FYI SIXTH option is the first guy you go to if someone is injured and I assure you most teams want to keep those guys around. They often do this with the odd concept of a long reliever.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
That's not it
Their depth was fine. You lose 40 percent of your starters on the same day, one guy retires, another guy gets hurt, another guy talks his way out of the organization … but I know you’re like a dog in that when you grab on a bone, you never let it go, other circumstances be dammed.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
You may not be able to plan for every contingency
but almost any GM or manager knows you want a back up starter and someone else who can be used in a pinch.. There was no reason to trade Gorzo especially BEORE Spring Training. As I said from the day of the trade and continue to point out, starters, even back end ones always have value. Oh and yes I like my nice chewy bone, because again I made the same argument on the day of the trade only to be told how much depth we had and how good Burgess was. Had the Cubs gotten a player of more immediate value or one who might possibly fill a key role, than maybe you take a huge risk on weakening your depth, but not here. Oh and its not like the Cubs ever lost 2 starters in a season or anything.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Good point
as to this is not the first time the Cubs have lost two starters. One, Wells I think hurt. But there was no sure thing that Cashner would have cut the mustard.
Cubs 2011 70-92
Every starter save Dempster has been on the DL this year
Some for extended stretches. How many days did the Cubs have their opening-day rotation this season?
I forgot, injuries are no excuse.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Cardinals have the same rotation they've had since opening day
And I’d say they’re not setting the world on fire.
If the Yankees can outscore everybody, it doesn’t matter who they pitch.
Keep on whinin’, TJ. You really aren’t tired of posting the same thing dozens of times a day?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
They both have had many major injuries.....
Yet are still good….
I guess the Cardinals didnt need Wainright??? Did you forget him?
And please do not compare the Byrd injury to losing Pujols….
What is the Cubs excuse?
You and Senor Gato need to get together in excuse land where your team is awesome!
I thought we were talking about rotations
Don’t move the goalposts, TJ.
You’re not a bad guy, but you’re a miserable SOB.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
So you did forget about Wainright?
I am also talking about the whole team….Both the Yankees and Cardinals have had bigger problems than the Cubs….Why are they still better?
The Cardinals payroll is much lower…
Could it be that they are run better?
Would you ever admit that?
Opening day starters, TJ
Reading comprehension is your friend.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Try to keep up....
So it does not count if your best pitcher is lost for the season???
Will the excuses ever stop?
They are having to use a 6th starter all year because of that? Or does that not count?
Also they had to find another closer…
I didn't realize Carpenter was out for the season
And I think the Cubs were down to their ninth or 10th starter by the time it was all said and done. But whatever.
Will your whining ever stop?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't forget Wainwright
I said “opening day starters.” When did Waino get hurt, genius?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
oh my
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
by jesus christos on Jul 3, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
In ST...are you that stupid?
That it would not matter? That you cant see that the Cardinals have to use a 6th starter all year for it?
No wonder you are a big Hendry supporter..Ignorant.
And you also know
They had time to plan for Wainwright not being there all season.
Did the Cardinals have to go to their eight or ninth starting pitching option?
You don’t have to answer, because that would give you one less cudgel. Moron.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Hilarious!!!!!
And they went right out and Got Wellmeier, Silva, and Looper….
No, they are a better team than that…
LOL@ NBF
Whatever
Happy Fourth, TJ. Have fun with those Roman candles.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Cubs are on their 9th or 10th starter
BECAUSE they had no back up. Coleman was really the only viable one and he has turned into a pumpkin.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Not true at all, Jess
I realize if they had Gorz they’d be in first place by three games, but that’s simply hokum.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Be in first place?
Who said that? Welcome to strawman central.
by WhistlerWilliams on Jul 3, 2011 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah but how much did they spend
signing all these retreads?
Not really...
none of their contracts are guaranteed, so they’re only paying a pro-rated portion until they predictably flame out and have to be released. Still should have kept Gorzelanny instead of giving him away for nothing. Their rotation and/or their bullpen could have used him for what he gets paid.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Boston and Tim Wakefield
Boston is 5-4 in the games he starts. Year after year, he starts the season in the pen as their 6th starter. A smart move by a smart organization.
This is just another example of poor roster construction. One year no backup for Ramirez, last year a kiddie corps in the pen and this year, no starting pitching depth. If the past is any indication, Hendry will go overboard next year and the Cubs will have 10 starting pitchers on the roster.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
The Cubs had plenty of pitching depth
In fact, IIRC, starting pitching was considered one of their strong points coming into the season.
That Wakefield is 5-4 in their starts might say more about the rest of the Red Sox and the uniqueness of his repertoire than it does about him or the organization’s prescience.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I made a mistake, they are 6-4 in his starts.
I should also add that he has gone at least 5 innings in 9 of those starts.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
It has nothing to do with him being a knuckle ball pitcher
It has to do with the idea of keeping a pitcher around for long relief who can then be used as a starter. It is what good teams do. It is exactly what the Yankees did with Colon.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Um...
I vote for using a retread who can go 5 innings and give up less then 5 runs.
As soon as you find one of those that can do that, let us know.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 3, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
It doesn't matter if Ortiz or whoever starts
Team still stinks. Would Coleman be better than those guys? Probably, but it doesn’t really matter because I don’t think he’s going to be a major contributor for Cubs, except as a rotation injury fill in. Plus we don’t have any interesting pitching prospects ready. Jay Jackson, but he stinks in Iowa.
It'll be interesting to see how things work out with Cashner
I heard yesterday that he could be a couple of weeks away from returning, assuming his arm holds up.
Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.... It's not complicated. - George Costanza
It's a couple of weeks before he begins to throw.
So, optimistically, he could return by August 10 or so. And I ain’t holding my breath.
"I'm not a broadcaster! I'm me!"--Ron Santo
You really do NOT want to rush a guy coming back from an injury to this team
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Me either.
Take your time and get it right.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
One thing to consider about the retreads..
is how it has taxed the bullpen and how that effects the other starters…ie leaving Dempster in too long, leaving Wells in too long. You can look at how bad the Cubs record is when the retreads start or bullpen experiment (Russell), but you also have to look at how it effects Quade’s descision to be more cautious with an over-used bullpen on the days the 1,2,3 starters start.
Except Coleman and any other younger pitcher
is likely to tax the bullpen even more. At this point you do want whoever can eat the most innings.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Very true...
but why do you have to resort to “whoever can eat the most innings” in the first place. Yes, you can say there were injuries, but so what, every team has injuries (look at the Cardinals). Simply put, the Cubs overlooked how vulnerable they were with the starting pitching. You trade away a cheap starting pitcher (Gorzo) and put all your eggs in one basket by relying on a unproven pitcher (Cashner). Why not have a backup plan if Cashner does not work out? And worse case scenario, why not have a backup plan if Casher does not work out and you lose one pitcher to injury, who would be able to take over the two spots?
I think the backup plans were named
Silva, Looper and Wellemeyer.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Which was stupid in the first place because none of them were good anyways
They were bodies thats all….
Your hero Jim Hendry’s idea of depth…..LOL
So it's not enough to have All-Star starters,
you also need All-Star backups.
Don’t you have anything better to do today, TJ? I mean, I know I don’t.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Look at the names you are throwing as backup pitchers and are calling it depth....They were not...
I dont think its possible to be 8 starters deep…But dont say the Cubs were…
Their backup plans were a joke.
Of course
They needed Cy Young candidates in the bullpen to satisfy you.
Go play golf or go fishing today, TJ. It’s not worth all this angst.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
This team sucks and needs to be gutted....but you are a Kool Aid drinking excuse maker...
Exactly the kind of fan that Ricketts is counting on…..You are one of the sheep.
And you're a freaking moron
who needs to have an intimate encounter with an M-80. Please, let it be this weekend.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, and we're going to lace yours
with cyanide.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
As John Cougar Mellencamp once said so well,
some people ain’t no damn good.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Typical when you run out of excuses...I am used to it...
Wainright does not count because it happened in ST…..
That is classic……
Jeez I go on a long phone call and come back to this
NBF is always fun. Remember how he has insisted what a great player Sori is.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he neccsarily isn't
but I don’t recall hoisting his banner very often in recent years, Jess. Maybe I did, but I don’t think so.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Well you have stopped THIS year
but up until this year pretty much. You also insisted he was not injured when of course it turned out he was and would not admit it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I think I said if he were injured
he shouldn’t be playing.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
No you said that those of us who insisted
he was injured were wrong. Common trait among players not to admit to injuries, common trait among management not to realize it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Pretty sure that was Drew...
But don’t let me interrupt the pile on.
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 3, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, please do interrupt
We need all the distractions we can get. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
You can't bench a guy making $19M a year TJ
…I agree that physically, he’s pretty much through. I want Hendry gone as much as anyone, but, Soriano becoming as lame and gimpy as he has, as fast as he has, couldn’t be projected by anyone.
With the 1st pick in the 2012 Baseball Amateur Draft, the Chicago Cubs select...
More to the point
Looper, Silva, & Wellemeyer were the back up plan?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Cubs aren't exactly renowned for their contingency plans...
Re: Mike Fontenet, back up 3rd baseman, 2009
Re: Aaron Miles, back up SS, 2009
Re: This year’s back up 1st baseman
Nobody cares about your fantasy baseball team
by carmen_fanzone on Jul 3, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
If I recall correctly, Gorz had made it clear he would be unhappy in the bullpen
They thought that Looper or Wellemyer had enough in the tank to sit in the bullpen and eat sunflower seeds all summer the way Jon Lieber did on his second stint.
I don’t think we’d be happy seeing them starting either.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
Um first of all who cares how he would have felt
No harm in taking a flyer with Looper or Wellemeyer, but you do NOT trade Gorzo based on that.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Because jackass employees are usually not good to have around
See Bradley, Milton, and Silva, Carlos.
Or to quote Mike Singletary: “Cannot win with them. Cannot coach with them. Can’t do it”
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
Gorzo was not a "jackass"
For a starting pitcher to say he was unhappy to go the BP is not that unusual. In no way did he say he would not do it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Well this is the first time I've seen you say who cares how a player feels.
Since you’re always crediting Hendry for doing the right thing when he dumps players for nothing.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
???
Not at all the same thing. Letting Maddux, Fuld and Murton ( among others) go because they could not help and would be better of elsewhere is not the same as worrying if a player is upset at his role.
I think you might remember I thought Lou & Hendry were idiots for allowing Sori to lead off because he was comfortable,
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
The bitching would continue
There would just be different targets, that’s all.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
There is PLENTY to "bitch" about this team
but the Gorzo trade exemplifies the lack of planning to me.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Oakland and Florida have used 9 starters this year
Did they have a lack of planning as well?
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
Quit confusing Jess with facts, IU
Of course, those teams aren’t all that good, either, so …
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Where are those teams in the standings?
Fair better than the Cubs, right?
Do you know what else those teams have in common?
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Gorz so far this year
12 starts so far:
- Three quality starts.
- Three meh starts
- Two starts of 5 IP or less, with 2-3 runs allowed
- Four “James Russell” starts of 5 IP or less with 4, 5, or 6 runs allowed
He’d have made all the difference on this team.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
Gorzo has the same ERA and Whip as Garza
Michael Burgess is batting .199. Gorzo would not have made a difference. NO ONE would have made a difference. Does not excuse a bad trade.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
You might want to recheck your stats
Six of his 12 starts were quality
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
He would have made a lot of difference...
and cost the Cubs nothing to keep on. At the very least, he would have been much more valuable than three nothing prospects.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
You realize the earth might fall of its axis
since we agree on something.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Meh
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
The Cubs...
…baseball management hasn’t been known for being proactive, having a sound philosophy and making more good decisions than bad on roster assembly.
Hendry is very well “liked” in baseball circles, but when it comes to the ingrediants in takes to run a successful baseball operation, his reputation in that area has been solidified.
To me, the fact that the Cubs trail the Pirates by 9 games at this point is just the icing on the cake over the last 10 years of Hendry’s GM tenure. How much more dough have the Cubs spent compared to the Pirates? How many times in the last couple years have the Cubs been outperformed by teams that have spent less than half what they have on players?
Injuries? I don’t want to hear about it. The Cards are one example over the last 8-9 years that have had more than their share, and the strength of their overall organization has enabled them to continue on.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Glad to see .330 hitting Johnson getting to watch slumping Dome and the crappy Soriano play again...
Contracts dictating the lineup as usual….
Same players as quade’s shitty lineup should go like this…
Castro
Barney
Pena
Aram
Byrd
Soto
Soriano
Dome
Lopez
The lineup if they were trying to win would have Johnson batting 6th in LF with Soto and Dome batting behind him.
Dome’s patience is what he still has going for him….It will serve him well in the 8th spot…
This is not that hard….I guess for the Cubs it is…..
NOW the future argument is relevant?
I expect well see Coleman soon anyway.
Man am i glad I won’t have to watch Lopez or Ortiz pitch.
by SenorGato on Jul 3, 2011 12:41 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
This is rather easy to explain...
With them going nowhere this season, isn’t it time to try to get young players into the mix
Our incompetent owner and GM still think we’re in this race. Really. They do. I’m not making this up.
Forest Gump’s mama hit it right on the head when she said…“Stupid is what stupid does”.
With the 1st pick in the 2012 Baseball Amateur Draft, the Chicago Cubs select...
Well, you know, everybody loved Coleman so much
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Fine, me, too
But don’t bitch if Coleman doesn’t pitch well.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Only if he's a "good" kid,
right, TJ? (And no, I don’t mean Lou Boudreau.)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Would rather see any kid in our minors rather than Lopez, Ortiz or Davis...
Our team SUCKS…..why waste time with these people?
Maybe "any kid" isn't ready, or isn't good enough
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, I'm going to go play golf today
You’ll monitor the game for me, so I have a reliable report. :p
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
And you can pretend like they've lost every one, too
Go get laid, TJ. You’ll feel better.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions
That's all that counts, isn't it?
Like I said, you’re better off trying to make babies than trying to watch the Cubs play right now.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
You been outside yet, NBF?
Pretty hot down here in Peoria.
With the 1st pick in the 2012 Baseball Amateur Draft, the Chicago Cubs select...
Can't be any worse than the past two days, can it?
We had no spring this year, EE. Then again, the weather can’t make my game much worse. :)
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Youd start whining about how the kid sucks.
Then we’d be at point A all over again.
by SenorGato on Jul 3, 2011 3:47 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Starting Rodrigo Lopez is a pretty poor way of showing they're still in it to win it.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
They told you that?
Did they tell you who they’d trade for at the deadline to put us over the top?
by SenorGato on Jul 3, 2011 12:56 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Hendry told ALL of us that just a couple days ago...I'm sure the video is available somewhere
With the 1st pick in the 2012 Baseball Amateur Draft, the Chicago Cubs select...
But then why weren't Scales and Ojeda up here
instead of DJ and Campana?
Management SAYS that they’re still in the race. That doesn’t mean that they believe it.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
The 'Youth Movement" so many Cubs fans have been pining for
is here, to a large extent, regardless of what management is saying.
Now, whether many Cubs fans truly like it or not is another question.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Right now...
…the Cub’s are acting more like a political campaign than they are trying to run a baseball team. People are trying to sugar coat as much as possible, avoid tough questions and give you answers that make you shake your head.
I don’t expect Ricketts to through anyone under the bus, or Hendry to do anything different than he always has, but just a small indication that there exists some competency, would go a long way. Problem is, I don’t believe that competency exists.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Jul 3, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
At this point, I just hope Hendry doesn't make things worse (long term) at the deadline.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Well, it won't happen.
So just hope he gets canned at the end of the year.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Great analogy
The Cubs are the presidential primary candidate who comes in third or four in each state but stays in the race because they think they’re going to make more money down the road in appearance fees if they put forth the right veneer of competitiveness.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
RE: All Star Game
I think it blows that Konerko didn’t make the All Star Game. He is definitely deserving. He has one more shot at it but it’s fan based and a damn popularity contest.
I may be a Cubs fan, but I also know Konerko should have been on the team.
This I absolutely agree with
Konerko has had an All-Star-worthy season, by any measurement.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
there isnt a red sock or yankee on the list
so he has a shot
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
by jesus christos on Jul 3, 2011 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, but is this where the one per team comes in?
No DH this year. Who else is playing 1B? Gonzalez, Texiera, Cabrera, and Young?
I guess I’d have kept one of the latter two off for Paulie (who is a guy I really like). But would that have left Texas or Detroit without a rep?
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
by Invalid User on Jul 3, 2011 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
i think hamilton is an allstar
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
by jesus christos on Jul 3, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
and wilson and beltre (what?)
Blake "The Franchise" DeWitt will lead us to the promised land
by jesus christos on Jul 3, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
All-Star game is the only time the DH makes sense
Of course the All-Star game should be just an exhibition game but Bud needs excitement
by baseballguru589 on Jul 3, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Another Note
How did Chipper Jones get picked as the back-up 3rd baseman over Aramis Ramirez?
by baseballguru589 on Jul 3, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Chipper runs out ground balls
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
No clue
Ramirez has been the best 3bman all year in the NL.
by jerry morales rules on Jul 3, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Right on...
…Konerko doesn’t toot his own horn, and I respect him big time for how he carries himself.
To me, he has to be one of the most underrated athletes in Chicago for sometime now.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
Totally true
I’m sure most Chicago sports fans would be surprised to know Konerko has played 10-plus years in this city.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Jul 3, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
He's in the Final Vote.
1B is a tough group to crack on both teams.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Hes a first baseman in the same league as
Tex, Cabrera, and Gonzalez.
Paul Konerko must have done something real nice for someone here. I guess he’s a nice enough guy.
by SenorGato on Jul 3, 2011 3:50 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
And he is one of the best players to ever put on the Sox uniform heck he’s in the top all time in Chicago period.
And actually he has done some nice things for me. Not me personally but I know him through some charity stuff.
He and Kerry are A LOT alike off the field. Very good friends as well.
Nothing happens unless it's first a dream
by puckishcubsfan on Jul 3, 2011 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
Sox fans are poed and I agree with them.
Nothing happens unless it's first a dream
by puckishcubsfan on Jul 3, 2011 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions
They traded Gorz thinking that they had Coleman and Jackson as #6/#7, and if necessary the corpse of Ramon Ortiz as the #8 starter. Sadly, after that Jackson got hurt in Spring Training and was on the DL when Cashner and Wells got hurt. And he has been rather crappy at Iowa since returning.
But…. bad teams pitch a LOT of starters. Let’s look at the six last place teams:
- Los Angeles has used 6
- Baltimore has used 7, including the 32 year old Chris Jakubauskas. Who?
- Houston has used 7, including the 37 year old Nelson Figueroa
- Kansas City has used 8
- Oakland has used NINE
- Florida has used NINE
But, with Mr. Ortiz… the Cubs will be on their TENTH starter this season.
So keeping Gorz, as some suggest, was not the magic bullet. Maybe they’d only be 11 games under 500? Yeah!!
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
No way where they counting on JACKSON for #6
Even the Cubs are not that dumb. They were hoping for a miracle out of Wellemeyer, Looper, Silva or even Bibbens Dirx. Trading Gorzo was a bad idea from day one.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
And what difference would it have made if they had kept him?
Seriously? They’d be 11 games out of the lead?
Gorz hasn’t gotten into the 6th in half of his starts. He’s Not. That. Good.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
What difference would it have made if we just saved money
and played LaHair at first base? None, the point is you can’t know what will happen and you are supposed to field the best team you can.
Frankly I think Gorzo is decent but nothing great but he is having a good year and really kicking in. Also you are still behind on his stats. He has made to the 6th ( and longer) in half his starts unlike everyone else we tried for an injured pitcher.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
"you can’t know what will happen"
You’re starting to sound like NBF….
And I stand corrected, he’s made it into the sixth in exactly half of his starts.
It's a simple question, Doctor: would you eat the moon if it were made of ribs??
Why does the fact that the Cubs epicaly suck
make bad moves OK? Had they traded LaHair for Pujols (and yes I am being silly) it would not have gotten them into contention, but I think it would have been a good trade and just the same the fact that Gorzo or any single player could have made the Cubs contenders justify a bad trade which left them exposed on their pitching?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 3, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Pujols would put us in contention.
by SenorGato on Jul 3, 2011 4:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Don’t think so. I love him and want him here next year but one player no matter how great doesn’t make a baseball team a winner that is this bad.
Nothing happens unless it's first a dream
by puckishcubsfan on Jul 3, 2011 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions
He's riding post-trade hype.
Gorz, simply put, is not Tim Wakefield or a proven 5th starter or most of the things he’s become on BCB since re trade. He’s a 28 year old who lost stuff and stamina to shoulder and elbow injuries, but was talaneted enough that a nice organization like the cubs saved his career.
When he passes 150 innings in a season again maybe I’ll care about losing him…even then…meh.
by SenorGato on Jul 3, 2011 1:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
You do realize, that nobody on your list is really contending for anything, right?
Most of them are among the worst teams in baseball. You really think you’re getting anywhere comparing the Cubs problems to the worst teams in baseball? The Cubs are on this list because 2 of their starters got hurt (now 4), and they’ve been consistently picking people off the scrap heap to replace the guys they originally pulled off the scrap heap as backups that didn’t pan out, as well as pulling guys out of the pen that hurt the rotation and the pen at the same time. They replaced Gorzelanny with guys who no seriously contending team would have counted on. That’s called poor planning.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
What serious contender is looking for
Gorzellany?
The Red Sox paid less for a younger, healthier, more talented guy. That’s what a contender would do. Gorz is a pretend 5th starter on a pretend contender…he’s not much of a loss.
Not a single person complaining about the loss of the Great Gorzelanny will acknowledge that the cubs saved his career. The guy was a retread when we got him, and the cubs brought him all the way back to viable MLB pitcher. Now he’s mediocre at best somewhere else…that’s a compliment to this organization.
by SenorGato on Jul 3, 2011 3:59 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
What you said here...
had nothing to do with what I posted. So, I’m going to assume you said it to someone else, not that it has any substance anyway.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Since you brought up Ramon Ortiz...
Do you realize they didn’t sign Ramon Ortiz until Apr. 10? This was right after Randy Wells and Andrew Cashner went down to injury, 4 months after they traded Gorzelanny and 7 years after Ramon Ortiz has been a viable major league starter.
The Cubs made a bad judgment on the talent they had available and didn’t properly plan and prepare for this season. Everything had to break right for them to even be a 75 win team, and they’re worse off for the future as well.
They wouldn’t be better off if they had kept Gorzelanny, but they only gave him away because they wanted to go cheap. That’s not what I want my team doing. I want my team to be better than the teams you listed… and act like it.
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Just North of Wrigley Field
by jameslcrockett on Jul 3, 2011 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Go Cubs - Go Rodrigo "whoever you are" Lopez
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
If this pre game thread means anything
I think I’ll stay out of the game thread. Cripes people it’s just baseball.
Be the kind of woman that when your feet hit the ground each morning the devil says, "OH CRAP, SHE'S UP"!
Hi Sue!
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Hi eths!
Be the kind of woman that when your feet hit the ground each morning the devil says, "OH CRAP, SHE'S UP"!
Please don't boycott the GT
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
I don't feel like
seeing adults act like children. I’ll try another day.
Be the kind of woman that when your feet hit the ground each morning the devil says, "OH CRAP, SHE'S UP"!
I'll miss you. Enjoy the 4th tomorrow.
If the Cubs still have a chance, no matter how small, it’s still Go Cubs, damn the math and pass the KoolAid.
Actually
I would have gone with Ruben MAteo for Tuesdays start.
Nothing happens unless it's first a dream
Bruce Levine just came out with something today....TJ would like this.
The Chicago Cubs would be willing to absorb a high percentage of left fielder Alfonso Soriano’s contract if the right trade offer came along, a source familiar with the situation told ESPNChicago.com.
"I'm not much of a chemistry guy, you know. Chemistry to me is a pinch-hit double with the bases loaded"--Jim Frey, Chicago Tribune, 1985.
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