Dontrelle Willis finally regaining his form with the Reds
Willis has a 2.63 ERA, 8.0 K/9, 2.4 BB/9, and 0.6 HR/9 in 13 starts for the Reds' Triple-A affiliate this year, and was a scratch yesterday with speculation that he's moving somewhere. This is exactly the reason why I advocate signing Scott Kazmir. There is absolutely no excuse for the Cubs to not sign him.
11 months ago
SackMan
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Exactly.
I thought the Cubs should have taken a chance on Willis when he was released last year.
The Cubs should sign Scott Kazmir now. Absolutely nothing to lose.
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No disrespect...
But that league is chocked full of crazy hackers, who always tend to skew pitchers’ stats there. It’s almost mind boggling. No problem with a Kazmir signing, and Lord knows I wish the best for Willis, but that’s a guy who really needs to do something productive on the major-league level before I’d get the least bit excited about his future prospects.
How do you explain the low walk ratio, then?
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I find AAAA sluggers
generally aren’t all that big on walking. But they do strike out quite a bit (see above).
Again, I wish him the best though. His even moderately successful comeback to the majors would be the feel-good story of the year, in my opinion.
by Damen Jackson on Jul 5, 2011 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
I can't effing believe we're actually giving Ramon Ortiz a start tonight.
This team is ridiculous
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
It’s funny because at one point people were practically begging to see Ortiz.
by SenorGato on Jul 5, 2011 7:59 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I've been advocating for more scrap-heap acquisitions for years.
The Cubs did this years ago with Dempster and Glendon Rusch (who was valuable in 2004 and 2005). And the Cardinals seemingly find a No. 3 starter off the scrap heap every year — which I think has been as key to their sustained success for the past decade as anything not named Albert Pujols.
The Cubs stopped this approach about time Wade Miller flamed out in 2007, and didn’t really try it again until this spring. Unfortunately, it didn’t work this year — either because injuries to the non scrap-heap guys were deeper and more sustained (overexposing the scrap heapers and making the Gorzo trade look really bad in retrospect), the Cubs don’t have the kind of organizational structure to get much out of these guys and/or the guys Hendry found were either about out of gas (Lopez, Davis) or completely out of gas (Looper, Wellemyer).
Granted, the injuries suck, but this seems like another case where Hendry dropped the ball. Scrap heap pickups do work (Bartolo Colon? Phil Humber?) but they haven’t worked for Jimbo in a VERY long time — which would seem to reflect on his ability to determine whether each scrap heap guy is worth it. And, if the team doesn’t have the coaching to nurture at least one scrap heap guy back to health, I wonder about the system Hendry has put in place.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I agree with this.
The Cubs could have had guys like Colon, Humber and Freddy Garcia this offseason for very little money.
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But we had Looper, Wellemeyer and all that depth
and Colon & Garcia would have blocked Cashner. Seriously if I remember correctly,both of them were pretty focused on signing with the Yankees even with minor league deals. Personally I still love the Livan Hernandez story where he was so grateful to the Nats for taking a chance on him that he wrote down the amount on a scrap of paper that he wanted from them the next year. It was not as much as he could have gotten as an FA and his agent was not happy, but he felt the Nats had faith in him, when no one else did.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Honestly
I think I’d rather have had Looper than Lopez or Ortiz.
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THANKS Al
Keep it up. Maybe lighting strikes twice since you bashed Lopez before his start.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2011 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
As was posted in the game thread
I think I’d rather have a 45-year-old Greg Maddux pitch tonight than Ortiz.
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You were the biggest Ortiz pusher here
a month or two ago. We KNOW he can go 6 because he’s a starting pitcher, remember?
by SenorGato on Jul 5, 2011 8:02 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Two months ago we were .500 and it was May.
Now we’re 15 under .500 at the halfway point.
I think that the risk/reward calculus may have changed a little. Over the last 2 months, this became a lost season. And in a lost season, it’s silly to play 38 year olds who are definitely leaving after the season.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jul 5, 2011 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions
its not silly given the other alternatives
the Cubs don’t have any other prospects to take these starts at this point. If Ortiz can give us 6 and save the bullpen 2 innings from someone else in the minor league organization making the start, it’s helpful in limiting some of the workloads in the pen
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Jul 6, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions
That's certainly true.
Under the circumstances, there’s literally no one else.
Back in April, Ortiz could have helped. At this point, the horse is already out of the barn.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Right.
Give Ortiz the five starts Russell got and…
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Um the Cubs did not sign Ortiz
until April so May was the earliest they could have tried him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Um he pitched for the Cubs on 4/11, and every 5th day therafter.
so he probably could have made several of James Russell’s starts, which took place on 4/12, 4/20, 4/26, 5/2 and 5/22.
It’s not like they were worried about limiting his innings. Ortiz went into the 6th inning in 14 of his 15 starts at Iowa, 3 of which were during April.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
Guy needed to get up to speed
Iowa is not Chicago. Heck I think Coleman did real well there. This is a bit ironic since I have been pushing to start Ortiz since May and only gotten a lot of ridicule, however April was too early.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
That's OK Al it worked
I did not see the game but Ortiz has a good line score so I will assume he was fine. Perhaps you need to rip some Cub hitters as well in the pregame threads.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2011 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
You know, saying you'd rather someone pitched than another isn't really
“bashing”
I guess I'm just a worrier, that's why my friends call me whiskers
I really think Hendry is just behind the curve with talent evaluation.
I’m not saying he always has been. But other than Jim Edmonds in 2008, I can’t think of a single player Hendry has signed who has turned out to be a bargain since the Dusty era. Some of his signings haven’t been bad — Mark DeRosa, Marlon Byrd, Derrek Lee and others look like they got about what they were worth. But most of the time, Hendry gives contracts that end up looking bad rather quickly.
In other words, Hendry is winning bidding wars or just paying too much for premier free agents (Kosuke, Bradley, Soriano, Miles) and he is unable to find bargains. It’s a terrible combination that I think is as responsible as anything for where the Cubs are right now.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I should say ...
he’s winning the WRONG bidding wars.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
That's my primary issue, too.
We seem to have a laser focus on acquring second-tier talents – not elite enough to get to the point where we’re bidding against Boston and NYY, but still ‘good’ enough that it takes $10MM+/year to sign them.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jul 5, 2011 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, but even then we overvalue players.
I love Byrd, but I think we can find a 300+ hitter, 10 HR+ guy for cheaper.
never forget...
1.7%
anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 5, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Byrd's value is as much in defense as anything else.
If he didn’t play a pretty good centerfield, he wouldn’t be worth his salary. But he does and, I think, he is.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
True. But these escalating deals always make us feel bad.
Even Byrd’s, which has gone as well as we could have hoped, is going to be $6.5MM next year, which kind of makes you wince a little. But just a little.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jul 5, 2011 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I think part of that problem is timing
and the “corporate” mind set. The Cubs purchase the top FA’s on the market when they are ready to make FA purchases and not when the “right” pieces become available. They set up budgets and follow them. That’s the right way to run a business that sells widgets, but it’s not the right way to run a competitive baseball franchise.
You get the right pieces when the right pieces become available not when you’re ready for them because then they may not be there. I doubt the Red Sox wanted to acquire both Crawford and A-Gon and I doubt that the Phillies wanted to add another pitcher, but these assets became available when they did so they moved. that’s the way the top organizations function.
by jerry morales rules on Jul 5, 2011 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Hence why he was smart enough to give Grabow 7.5 million before anyone could outbid him.
GM's are in charge of Managers, not the other way around.
Nothing like $4.8 million ...
for your team’s fifth best relief pitcher.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
So who is doing this better than us?
Reclamation projects always have a low rate of success. We bring in our fair share – maybe more – of guys who fit the bill. I just don’t think there’s any formula for success here, it’s mostly luck.
No it is more than luck
Players like Looper & Wellemeyer were less reclamation projects than "what the hell do we have to lose inviting them to Spring Training? Meanwhile the Yankees sign Colon & Garcia to minor league contracts for Spring Training. Everyone keeps emphasizing the Cubs terrible bad luck in so many starters getting injured as if this explains much, what I find far more telling is that in THREE MONTHS the Cubs could not find a single steady backend starter. 3 months and no one in the system, acquired by trade or picked up the scrap heap could be counted on to consistently go 5 innings and give up 4 or fewer runs.
Maybe Lopez & Ortiz will do it, maybe Coleman will be OK now but if you want an explanation for a lost season the total inability to find anything resembling a 5th starter is high on the list.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
So just to be clear here
you are saying that it is more than luck and is in fact a repeatable skill.
And yet your poster children of 2011 reclamation projects – the 2011 NY Yankees – had none of their reclamation projects in 2010 work out (Chan Ho Park, Randy Winn, Royce Ring, Chad Gaudin).
It’s really easy to look back at the teams that succeeded and say they did it well, but there’s a metric ton of luck involved with any reclamation.
Players like Looper & Wellemeyer were less reclamation projects than "what the hell do we have to lose inviting them to Spring Training?
That’s basically every reclamation project ever, even the Colon one. The idea that the Yankees somehow predicted his success is absolutely laughable. They took a chance and it worked out.
Of course, with that incredible gift of hindsight you have it’s a miracle you don’t have a job in baseball.
Well, what about St. Louis?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I guess it depends on what you consider a reclamation project
I consider a reclamation project to be taking a guy who once had success in the majors, but has fallen on hard times either through injury or loss of talent, and turning them back into useful pieces.
To me, the Cardinals are great at taking guys who’ve never been all that successful and making them into useful pieces. Duncan’s magic touch with turning mediocre relievers into useful starters is famous of course.
They’ve had their share of attempts at reclamation as well (Aaron Miles, Lance Berkman if you can call him that, John Smoltz, Brad Penny) but I just don’t think of that as their thing.
The Cardinals did precisely what you said in your first graph ...
with two pitchers, Daryl Kile and Chris Carpenter.
I’d say being successful with “scrap heap acquisitions” — which was the term I used at the beginning of this part of the thread — includes the Kiles and the Carpenters AND the Pineiros, the Weavers and the Wellemyers.
The ability to make No. 3 starters out of swingmen and return aces to their old forms, I think, comes from the same skillset. Dave Duncan is a master at this — but other teams have done it well. Hell, the Cubs did it well in 2004-05 with Dempster and Rusch. Rusch was a swingman they made into an effective starter. Dempster was a former All-Star whom they made into a very good closer and then a very good starter.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Um you might want to check the 2010 Yankees
They managed to find TWO back up 5th starters when they needed them, Dustin Mosley a “reclamation project” who they signed to a minor league contract and Nova who they plucked out of their system which again is two more than the Cubs. How much "bad luck " can you have if again you can’t find a SINGLE 5th starter over 3 months? You have 3 ways of getting one, you can have a guy either in the minors or on the actual MLB roster capable of stepping in, you can try to get a few vets stashed away in your minor league system or you can trade for one, the Cubs couldn’t not do any of that when ti counted so we had to endure James Russell for month.
Bottom line is good organizations have either a contingency plan in their own system or the ability to make a move on short notice for emergency need. The Cubs have a long history of failing to do either on numerous crucial positions wasting weeks and months fiddling while the Cubs burn.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2011 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Dustin Moseley is with the Padres, not the Yankees.
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2010 Al
Wreckard was saying the Yankees had no success with 5th starter pick ups in 2010
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2011 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, sorry.
Missed the 2010 reference, thought you were talking about this year.
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No Yankees signed Mosley to a minor league contract in 2010
He was stashed in AAA and almost ready to bolt ( he had an out ) when the Yankees called him up in early June due to an injury. He had a nice year and the Yankees tried to re-sign but were out bid by the Padres. So basically Yankees take scrap heap pitcher, keep him AAA and call him up when they lose a starter and they plan this BEFORE the start of Spring Training because I guess they figured a starter might get injured so they should have some viable options.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2011 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Dustin Moseley... he of the 4.96 ERA last year in 16 appearances
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
But we're not looking for Cy Young, necessarily.
We’re looking for someone who’s better than Doug Davis.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
and Russell, Coleman, Wells, anyone in the minors etc
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Dustin Moseley... he who could easily be Comeback Player of the Year.
Ignore the 2-8 record… that’s poor run support. He’s pitched well.
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THIS year.
Last year with the Yankees, he pretty much sucked.
But… it could just be further proof that PETCO does wonders for ERAs.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
No he did not "suck"
The Cubs can only dream of having a guy in the minors theyt could bring up and get an ERA under 5 ( and in Mosley’s case pitching in the AL and the hardest division in baseball). This is what teams who plan do. They don’t scramble at the end of Spring Training and the first week of the season to try find a guy who can actually start.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Not all good temas have an Ivan Nova, with a near 4 ERA, hovering in the minors.
That’s just the Yankees. Look at the Red Sox, they have to start Lackey and Wakefield because they have NOBODY else.
never forget...
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anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 7, 2011 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Wakefield has been there "ace in the hole"
Who won another game last night. Lackey is guy on a huge contract so they don’t have a lot of choice. They lost two starters this year but are in the thick of a race because they were able to replace them, not exactly a good example to cite.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Really?
“Ace in the hole”? then don’t ever complain about Rodrigo Lopez starting, because he has better numbers as a starter than Wakefield does. Wakefield barely has a sub-5 ERA as a starter, that’s hardly an “ace in the hole.” And if you wanna say that Lackey must start because of a big contract, you can’t complain about Soriano playing everyday, of like when people used to complain about Lee playing everyday. Now that Lester is hurt, they might start Aceves again, who has a 5.14 as a starter. What makes that decision ok?
never forget...
1.7%
anything is possible...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Jul 7, 2011 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
FYI
Most teams can usually dig a few guys out of the minors for a 5th starter with the VERY low standards mentioned. The Cubs had NO one after Coleman. When your guys closest to ML ready are Diamond, Maine & Bibbins Dirx , you have a serious problem, one that needs to be addressed in earnest in the off season.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Well... you're right about one thing here.
An ERA of 4.96 IS UNDER 5
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Again this in the AL
(where I believe it is standard to deduct era VS NL for the DH) and in the hardest division in the majors. Right now not even adjusting for that difference he would be the #3 starter on the Cubs.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
He made a whopping 2 of his 16 appearances vs Boston.
And he made another whopping 2 appearances vs Tampa.
They needed him most in August, when he made 6 starts (one against Boston, and zero against Tampa) and had a 5.67 ERA on the month.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
Um the team needed him most in August
and he went 3-2 beating Boston, Detroit and Toronto. He was not very good, but he was good enough to KEEP HIS TEAM in the games, which is what the Cubs could not find despite trying for 3 months this year.
Seriously guys is it your belief that the Cubs inability to find a single pitcher who could be a 5th starter in half a season was just “bad luck”?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Look. we're going to come to an end on this discussion now.
It started when I commented with an opinion that it’s not easy to replace injured starters. And I pointed to the Yankees, the winningest organization with the most money in baseball, who are still searching for starting pitching. Guys don;t grow on trees.
Are the Yankees a better run organization than the Cubs? You bet they are. But it also sure as heck helps any replacement starters when they can offer the run support of one of the top 5 scoring offenses in baseball year in and year out.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
by SackMan on Jul 7, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure run support helps
but it simply does not explain the Cubs total inability to find someone who could start. We are not talking “quality” starts, again my standard here is 5 innings without getting shelled. It should never take half a season to find a body that could do that.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
I hate your logic con el passion.
Putting up an ERA near 6 when the team needs you most is not KEEPING HIS TEAM in the game.
It’s as bad as your Fuld/Garza logic…
And yes, it is bad luck. Losing your 5th starter in the first inning of his first start is bad luck. Most teams struggle to find arms as it is…to have to do it a little over a week into the season is not as easy as you like to pretend it is. Sure the Cubs should have known that Colon’s magic stem cell surgery would have him hitting 94 again this year, but you can’t turn back the clock that easily. Plus guys like him or Garcia would have to hit in the NL…another fact that doesn’t matter in Fantasyland, but does in reality.
The ability to go 5 innings and
NOT get shelled is a pretty minimum standard. Mosley could do it most of the time and Coleman, Russell, Davis and any available pitcher the Cubs had could not.
The Cubs should have been planning ahead and not only did they not do that, they could not even react when disaster struck. THREE MONTHS to find a 5th starter is NOT bad luck, it is a bad organization and bad GM.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
DS, you need to stop with ridiculous comments...
At no point in the history of the Cubs would Moseley be the #3 starting pitcher… Looking at ERA and sliding a pitcher in is a pointless exercise, but I think you already knew that.
Well actually this year he would be the #1
pitcher. The point is as if you did not know that our SP really , really sucks and anyone that could get an ERA under 5 would be roughly #3
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions
No, he wouldn't.
I’ve been called alot of names here and read alot of things I didn’t disagree with….yet by far the only thing that’s actually come close to offending me is how bad your logic is. I’m not even trying to be insulting when I say this…it just is really bad.
he wouldn't what?
Be the Cubs #1 starter with the same numbers he has. Yes he would.You could obviously claim that his ERA being half point less than Garza is just a meaningless stat, but the fact that he has his numbers and HAS NEVER MISSED a start would in fact make him the #1 Cubs starter in 2011. As for being the 4th Starter with last years numbers, well that was a little cruel to Demp so indeed he would be the 4th starter by a WIDE margin.
It is not that Mosley was at all good last year it is that the Cubs basically have had no 4th or 5th starter this year. Perhaps Lopez & Ortiz can fill the roles NOW but that is after half a season and none of this is remotely illogical.
What is offensive is the idea that the Cubs failure to find starters over 3 months is just “bad luck”.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions
What is offensive is you looking at the ERA of a pitcher in Petco
And claiming he’d have the same ERA in Wrigley. Moseley is much better than he was last year, but he has a 4.13 xFIP for a reason. Moseley has a career 4.66 ERA and a FIP and xFIP that show that his peripherals support that is right where he should be.
You’re ACTUALLY claiming that a pitcher who has a 4.81 K/9 and the luck of pitching in a neverending ballpark would be our #1 this year.
THIS year
any pitcher who has not been injured gets a a lot of extra points. This is a significant factor. Now Garza missed 3 plus starts forcing the more craptastic replacements and in a real world comparison that matters. Without the Injury Mosley would be behind Garza, with it he is ahead. Honestly most slightly above league average pitchers who did not miss a start would be the Cubs #1 pitcher this year.
It is the reality of the situation.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
You're very bizarre in how you give points, then.
He’s even close to being the #1 starter this year regardless of how you twist stats or crunch numbers.
Your reality looks like a Dali painting at this point if you believe what you’re writing.
A #1 starter for the Cubs
This year is like being the tallest building in Sister Bay WI.
The reason Mosley who is having a good year could be a #1 starter the Cubs is that all of their starters have been injured or are not very good. I honestly don’t see why that is remotey off the wall. It is not saying Mosley is a #1 pitcher, it is saying on this years Cubs he would be since he is good and has never missed a start.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
It's an insult to Garza, Dempster and Zambrano
Who have all poster WARs over double of Moseley this year even WITH missing games.
Moseley has a career WAR of 2.0 in 262.2 IP, he is not now, nor would he ever be a top pitcher, or a top 3 pitcher for the Cubs. I have no idea why you continue on trying to prove this point.
Who cares about stats if you are missing games
If Cashner also has a higher WAR does that make him of ANY use this year. Here is the deal you can Cliff Lee start 15 games and Colemen the other 15 or Matt Garza start 30. Garza is not anywhere near as good as Lee but if he gives you twice the starts in a season then he is your #1
Every start missed by a Cub starter was basically a win for the other team as we had NO ONE who could start in their place. Again I am using Mosley as an example of just how bad Cub starting pitching is and how little it takes to be their #1 pitcher. If you are not making starts you are not a #1 starter.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh good god
Who cares about stats if you are missing games
Depends – how good are the stats?
If Cashner also has a higher WAR does that make him of ANY use this year.
You have no idea what WAR is, do you.
Garza is not anywhere near as good as Lee but if he gives you twice the starts in a season then he is your #1
First, let me say that the whole idea of numbering starters is completely ridiculous and pointless.
That said, no one anywhere defines their “ace” in terms that you’re using here. Any team with both Lee and Garza would consider Lee their ace, no matter how much time he missed.
So Carpenter is the Cards Ace this year?
I had no idea. The question should not be how good are the stats but how many games are being missed and who to have to pick up those starts.
Again 15 games of Lee/Coleman or
30 games of Garza. Injuries matter big time in determining a players value.
I was comparing exactly what Garza and Mosley have done THIS year. In missing three starts for which the Cubs had basically no one to cover something WAR simply can not remotely account for since the CUBS can’t find anything close to league average replacement. Add the average stats of 3 Russell/Davis starts to Garza’s stats and see what that does. It is NOT abstract. Missing games has real world consequences and for the Cubs this year those consequences are a virtual guaranteed loss so know I don’t care about WAR in this case.
Either you give your team a chance to win or you don’t.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
The question should not be how good are the stats but how many games are being missed and who to have to pick up those starts.
If only we had some kind of statistic to measure someone’s overall value, that accumulates with more playing time.
If only.
In missing three starts for which the Cubs had basically no one to cover something WAR simply can not remotely account for since the CUBS can’t find anything close to league average replacement.
I’d recommend having a basic understanding of what a stat even is before trying to tell others what it can’t measure.
Glad you took over...
This was literally exhausting.
I thank both of you for taking over.
Exhausting is one way of putting it.
WAR measures in the ABSTRACT
You are telling me the Garza’s WAR factors in the stats of the ACTUAL pitchers who pitched in the starts he missed. THAT is the real world.
If you can convince me that Garza plus the numbers for starters in the three games he missed would make him better than Mosley then I will gladly admit defeat.
WAR is defined as the value of a player over somebody they would pick up from the minors or a scrapheap to replacement. Alas I don’t believe it takes into account the Cubs inability to find even a viable scrap heap player WAR is an abstract stat, it does not assume James Russell or Coleman or whichever bad pitcher they were using takes the start when Garze does not.
Please explain if that is wrong and somehow Garza’s war actually factored in the exact numbers of the actual pitchers who replaced him
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Even though that isn't how WAR works AT ALL...
It’s funny… even if you take EVERY start by not only James Russell, but Rodrigo Lopez, Casey Coleman AND Doug Davis and subtract them only from Garza’s number, Garza’s WAR still doubles Moseley’s.
by bdlugz on Jul 7, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I KNOW that is not how WAR
works that is why it does NOT account for the damage done by Garza’s missing starts which is the only way to compare him to Mosley who did not miss any stars.
Take the STATS for the games Garza’s missed , add them to his stats because he was responsible for those starts and then see what you get .
I get that you can not realistically do that. Screw WAR it is an ABSTRACT stat. Does your brain not tell you what happens when one of those guys starts over Garza, Cubs lose.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Hahahaha
Screw WAR it is an ABSTRACT stat.
I’m sure this makes sense in your head, but what does this even mean? I know anti-intellectualism is actively encouraged here, but you’re railing on something and then proving every time you talk about it that you don’t understand what it is or how it’s supposed to be used.
by Wreckard on Jul 7, 2011 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Garza > Moseley, even if Garza is injured and misses 3 games...
Does your brain really not tell you that?
Also, I DID take those pitchers WARs and subtract them from Garza, not only for the 3 starts he missed, but EVERY START THE MADE, and he still doubles Moseley.
The fact that you’re arguing that Moseley is better than Garza this year because Garza missed 3 games and Moseley hasn’t is mind boggling.
By your argument, we’re better off with Fukudome instead of Josh Hamilton because Hamilton was hurt. Or that we’re better off with Pena than Pujols because Pujols missed a couple of weeks.
by bdlugz on Jul 7, 2011 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Starting pitchers are not position players
Every start they miss is CRUCIAL especially on a team that has NOTHING to replace them with. Garza missed 3 starts that had to be covered by guys who can’t get out of the 5th inning. I ask you again would you take 15 games started by Lee followed by 15 started by Wells or 30 games started by Garza. One gives a chance to win every game, the other gives a much better to win 15 out of 30 games.
I am arguing that Mosley has been good this year and that up to this point the fact that he gave his chance to win 3 more games than Garza (which also saves the bullpen) makes him a better pitcher to have. It does not make him a better career pitcher and who know what happens from now on but up to this point he would have been better,
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
You're assuming an equal chance to win in all cases.
So let’s set aside your comical misunderstanding of WAR as a statistic and look at it as simple odds.
Let’s say you’re right, and when James Russell starts you are GUARANTEED to lose. Let’s also say that Matt Garza misses 3 starts, and Mosely misses none, meaning that Mosely pitches in 18 games (actually only 17, but we’ll say 18 for arguments sake) and Garza only 15.
I think everyone anywhere with a brain – I don’t want to speak for you here – would agree your odds of winning on any given day with Garza are higher than they are with Mosely. Probably quite a bit.
If those odds with Garza are more than .10 higher than they are with Mosely you will come out ahead with Garza making 3 fewer starts.
By that I mean, let’s say with Garza pitching your odds are 60% of winning that day. With Mosely, they are 50%, and with Russell they are 0%.
In scenario A, Mosely makes 18 starts and the Cubs win 9 games.
In scenario B, Garza makes 15 starts, and Russel makes – and loses – 3 starts. The Cubs win 9 games.
So yeah, you sort of have this half understanding of marginal benefits here but you don’t understand just how much a better player makes up for that replacement level player.
by Wreckard on Jul 7, 2011 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Problem with this set up
is that it assumes from the start Matt Garza is an Ace and Moseley is a shade above a AAA pitcher which I simply reject.(50% to 60% is a huge difference which I assume you are basing roughly on the WAR from FG) I admit it is my fault for playing along at all and I appreciate the time you spent crunching numbers but you start from a subjective system like WAR that decides it has a perfect formula for adjusting number so you get “real” stats instead of old fashioned stuff like ERA. According to WAR ( and your numbers above), Matt Garza is a near ace and even before last night this was simply not true. As of today’s stats WAR tells us Garza is better than for instance Jurjjens. Really? I assume this is because Jurjjens is ground ball pitcher and not a strikeout pitcher and therefor the fact that his ERA is 1.87, 2 plus runs lower than Garza is apparently not good enough. It also says Ryan Dempster and his ERA of 4.99 is still having a pretty good year and is in any case significantly better than Moseley ( FYI no one should claim Moseley has good ERA because he plays is a band box pitchers park, he splits show he does better on the road). The key factor seems to be that WAR places a heavy emphasis on strikeouts as one of those lovely FIP stats and apparently if you strike out a lot of guys it more than balances off all those pesky hits you give up which gives a system that says Dempser is a MUCH better than Moseley so far this year and Garza is slightly better than Jurjjens ( which Hendry will be happy to hear)
I said I did think Garza was a bit better than Moseley, I did not accept that he was as WAR claims a much, much better pitcher this year.
Let’s just say I am old fashioned and while I understand ERA is a flawed stat, I am not wiling to accept a system that tries to make it nearly irrelevant by positing it knows what would really happen if every pitcher were facing the same batter in the same park.
I apologize for late response. Literally was locked out last night.
I won’t bother you with my posts on the WAR/Moseley/ Garza issue anymore. We have a basic disagreement because obviously I simply don’t accept WAR at least the one used by fangraphs. B-R currently has Garza’s WAR at -4 and of course at fangraphs he remains an near ace at 2.5.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2011 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not talking about WAR, just the team's odds of winning
If you really truly believe that the odds of winning with Mosely on the mound are the same as they are with Matt Garza, then indeed there’s no point in continuing the discussion.
Just because you don't like WAR doesn't make it subjective...
It’s based on a set formula of numbers that are not open to interpretation.
JJs FIP is higher than Garza’s because he is not striking batters out, but also because he has a completely unsustainable LOB% and also is getting slightly lucky with his BABIP.
And teams who plan to sign guys like Moseley
Sign guys like Looper or Wellenmeyer in March. It’s the same friggin thing. Some work out… some don’t. Geez.
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
No it is not
Mosley was far more likely to be of use, but the point remains that shortly into ST the Cubs knew all their back up plans were failing or close to failing and they did nothing so when Cashner and Wells went down they HAD nothing and scrambled for guys who would take weeks to be remotely viable.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Dude had a career 5.29 ERA with the Angels
And was coming off of hip surgery.
And you think he’s somehow a “lock” to perform well?
"You win because of the quarterback. We have to get that position stabilized. We're fixated on that." -- Jerry Angelo (12.30.2008)
Jerry Angelo trades for Jay Cutler! (4.2.2009)
No not a lock at all
Just a more reasonable shot than the others. Remember Mosley only came up when someone claimed that the Yankees getting great returns on MINOR league contracts to Garcia & Colon this year was a fluke and that in 2010 they had not been able to find anyone the same way.
Year in and year out the Yankees find these guys as do the Red Sox, as do the Cardinals. THey either have them in the system or they get them, the Cubs flail away rushing to sign retreads AFTER the season starts since everyone else flamed out.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
How was he more reasonable than the others?
Hindsight is one hell of a drug.
The point is the Yankees signed an MLB pitcher
to a minor league contract and kept him AAA for half a season where he was OK but nothing special, when they needed a starter they brought him up and he was OK, but nothing special , in other words a 5th starter.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions
The St. Louis Cardinals.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
I liked the gamble on Doug Davis.
Not so much Ramon Ortiz though. Let’s see.
John Grabow: $4.8 million in 2011.
I liked taking a flyer on Davis, too.
But it didn’t work out. Now, Hendry has access to info that we don’t — not to mention the fact that he’s paid a lot of money to find talent — so him liking a move versus us liking a move isn’t close to the same thing.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Gorzellany was scrap heap.
They basically got him for free for taking on Grabow.
by SenorGato on Jul 5, 2011 7:57 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
On what do you base such a wild statement?
The Cubs wanted Grabow who was having a very good year. They wanted Gorzo too. What in the world would make you think otherwise.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2011 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I said the Cubs didnt want those guys?
You think the Pirates just handed us the guy who was just their best starting pitcher a couple seasons earlier? The cubs gave up three minor league pitchers who never became anything for a good reliever on a bad team making 2.3 million, and they got the pirates to include a lefty starter who had recently had his arm ravaged by injury. Gorz was damaged goods when he came here, hence the only 119 innings last year and fewer the year before.
by SenorGato on Jul 5, 2011 9:51 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
You make it sound like all the Pirates wanted was a salary dump
and were forced to throw Gorzo in to get the Cubs to take Grabow.Do you really think they were having trouble finding a taker for a left handed set up guy having a very good year whose remaining salary would have been about one million dollars. You wrote that Gorzo was a some kind of bonus for “taking on” Grabow. They did not “take him on” they went out and got him. The Pirates were the Cubs patsy of choice for several trades, but your phrasing makes it sound like Grabow was player no other team would want and Gorzo was just thrown in to sweeten the pot
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2011 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions
FYI Gorzo pitched 136 innings last year
Where to you check your stats anyway?17 more innings is about 15% more or roughly 3 starts so not a small number for a starter “ravaged” by injury.
Also I am even more confused. First you claim the Pirates threw Gorzo in for “free” to sweeten the deal for Grabow ( whose salary you conveniently made double for a trade with half the season over) then you say the Pirates don’t just hand over their best starter from a few years ago and then you call him damaged goods. So which is it please? Did the Pirates throw Gorzo in as a bonus to sweeten the deal for Grabow or he was their former best starter that they would not just give away?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2011 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Ummmmm
They threw him in “for free” because he was injured and had been injured for some time. Not only was he injured, but he had been sucking too. At the time of acquisition, he was the equivalent of a scrap heap pickup. The only reason their former top pitcher was available at all was because he suffered those injuries.
by SenorGato on Jul 6, 2011 3:12 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
OK so why did you write this
“You think the Pirates just handed us the guy who was just their best starting pitcher a couple seasons earlier?”
or is it your claim that they were SO desperate to get rid of a left handed set up man having a very good year, that were just throwing in extras since no other MLB would want one of those? You know like contending teams with bullpen issues. Gosh left handed relievers owed one million on an expiring contract. I am surprised they did have to throw in some season tickets to the Stealers to get at team to get someone to “take” him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2011 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I wrote it to get an answer.
As usual, I got nothing.
Once again, a healthy, productive Gorzellany never is involved with that trade. He certainly isn’t a throw in arm in an expensive middle reliever trade.
by SenorGato on Jul 6, 2011 4:30 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
"expensive middle reliever"???
Really? Actually Grabow was due only about $750,000 for the remainder of the season and he was almost exclusively an 8th inning set up guy. So lets see contenting team ( any contending team that year) can’t afford $750.000 for a successful left handed pitcher who already has been a bullpen work horse?
Again I am sure it was hard to find anyone to “take on” such a worthless player.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 6, 2011 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Name the team who missed on him.
Even then, explain how that changes that he was an injured pitcher/damaged goods who had some injuries that were considered career threatening. The cubs saved his career and rebuilt an injured pitcher, which the cardinals and anyone else get tons of credit for.
Those bumbling cubbies hi-yuk!
by SenorGato on Jul 7, 2011 12:10 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Um you do realize I was referring to Grabow?
who you described as an expensive middle reliever who the Cubs “took on” according to your original post as if he was some unwanted orphan they were helping out.
Grabow was not expensive, he was not a middle reliever and the Pirates would have no trouble dealing him.
Also you remember I like Gorzo and I like the trade. I was merely calling you on your dead wrong facts about the circumstances of the trade and quality of the players involved.
Hmm wrong ERA, wrong salary and most of all your claim that
the Cubs were somehow doing the Pirates a favor by ’taking on" Grabow and Gorzo was some kind of throw in freebie.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 1:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I know you were referring to Grabow.
Who missed on him? You keep saying they would have no trouble dealing him, yet he went to a division rival for 3 nobodies AND they had to throw in another arm.
Gorz was scrap heap fodder/damaged goods at the time of acquisition. That’s why we got him so dirt cheap. He was a throw in.
The Pirates have a long history of misjudging
Cub prospects. As I have pointed out over and over Grabow was NOT expensive and he was NOT a middle reliever. I have no idea what was happening at the trade deadline in 09, I do know that a lefty set up guy who was a work horse for his team with good numbers and an expiring contract would be really easy to trade and yet you claimed the Cubs “took” him and got Gorzo as an extra present for ridding them of such an albatross.
It was a trade like any other. It was a good trade for the Cubs so I have no idea why you see a need to claim that Grabow was so difficult to get rid off they just threw Gorzo in.
You accuse me of making things up, can you point to anything that would suggest this what happened as opposed to the Pirates famous bad judgement in trades?
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
So what you're saying is that...
you pretty much just made up that he was very easily tradeable and really that you have no idea who wanted him or how long that list of teams that wanted him actually was. That’s all you had to say.
The Cubs took a chance on Gorz, who was damaged goods, and got him to get thrown in with Grabow. They brought him back to health, stuck with him, and got some decent innings out of him as they made him a viable rotation option again. That’s the definition of what a scrap heap guy is…The injuries plus bad performance in Pittsburgh are the things I would point to show that.
*to show that he was a scrap heap guy.
I’d like to know why you think the Pirates would just hand us over a rotation power lefty in his mid-20’s as the second arm in a trade the Cubs made for bullpen help.
I never claimed they handed him over
you are claiming he was of so little value he was a freebie, well actually not a freebie , by your theory we “took” on that bad overpriced untradeable Grabow and they let us have Gorzo for free. Seriously what remote evidence to you have for this idea.
it was a trade, prospects for one good pitcher with an expiring contract and one formerly good starter worth a shot. No need to make it something it wasn’t.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
No, by my theory we traded for a middle reliever
and with him got a project/scrap heap arm that the Pirates didn’t think they could fix.
What remote evidence do you have for Gorz not being scrap heap?
Baseball 101, left handed pitchers are almost
ALWAYS tradeable which is one reason they basically have the longest careers in MLB even when they are NOT very good an Grabow in 09 was good.them. There is no remotely logical reason to claim a player like Grabow would be untradeable to anyone but the Cubs .
You said the Cubs “took” on Grabow and had to throw in Gorzo to make it worth our while without a SHRED of evidence that this anything other than a regular trade.
How bout you just admit you typed to fast , that Grabow was NOT expensive, was NOT a middle reliever and did not have to “taken” as a favor.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Anyone want to start a pool ...
on how many days this debate will last?
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Here is a hint
I have to be somewhere at 5PM EST.
However I admit I am having a bit of fun. Gato can’t admit to slew of wrong facts re ERA, Contracts heck even that Grabow was a set up man. Honestly I don’t think he really meant to claim Grabow was so untradeble the Pirates just threw Gorzo in since no one wanted Grabow. However it is his story and he is sticking to it.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I suppose the important thing is that you're having fun, Jessica.
I’m not going to weigh in on this one, though.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Coward!
Seriously if you believe Grabow in 2009 (sorry you have to look at his real numbers and forget everything he has done after that) was so terrible the Cubs were just taking him off the Pirates hands (not to mention that he was “expensive” and “middle reliever”) and given Gorzo as a present feel free to pipe in.
Again to be fair I don’t believe Gato really meant to claim this, but since he wrote it he is sticking to it I will continue to remind him.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
No last place team is looking to keep a multi million dollar middle reliver.
That, as you put it so well, is also part of Baseball 101.
The Cubs took Grabow, a decent but expensive middle reliever on a bad team, and with him got a pretty badly injured former top prospect/good player for the cost of three prospects.
I’ll keep repeating it because it’s true. You still can’t name me one team that missed on him. Instead you feed me something about Baseball 101.
Oh and on top of the 2.3 million he was making the year he got traded...
Grabow was set to be a FA.
Yet another reason the Pirates would be looking to trade him…but lets keep pretending that we hoodwinked them out of mediocre middle reliever and an injured starter who’s career was on the brink of extinction.
Yep keep using the wrong figure
He was owned roughly $750,000 dollars and had not further committment. 2.3 million is a red herring. Do you honest to god not get the value of highly effective lefty SET up guy to a contending team for a small amount of money?
I mean teams are just never looking for lefties in the bullpen, they are a dime a dozen.
You base your theory on ZILCH, The Cubs made a trade, they gave up prospects the Pirates had every reason would be of some use, they have certainly made those deals in the past, but no this was a special case were having trouble unloading a good lefty pitcher they had to just throw another guy in and the prospects were just a cover for being able to get rid of Grabow.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Still not one single team actually named.
Blows the mind it does.
Of course the Pirates wanted to trade him
He actually had value and his contract was expiring , he was NOT expensive and he was NOT a middle reliever unless you consider the 8th inning where he pitched almost exclusively the middle of the game. For anyone who would like to actually check facts here is his game logs link
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=grabojo02&t=p&year=2009
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions
His 2009 salary was 2.3M, he was owed 750k by the Cubs
Also, claiming he was a set up guy just because he pitched the 8th is like claiming DeWitt is a middle of the order hitter because Quade has him bat 3rd.
He was a set up guy because they had no one else to set up, not because he was overly talented.
Who cares what his salary was
he was owed $750,000 at the time of the trade, are you saying that made him an “expensive” player for deadline deal?. It is like saying Dome will cost 12 million if traded.
He was a set up guy for the CUBS as well .. So lets see Set up guy before trade, set up guy after trade but no he is just some old middle reliever
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
750 is plenty expensive for a middle reliever...
especially when he’s on a last place team. Baseball 101 remember? Never overpay for middle relief if you don’t have to. They certainly don’t have to.
Did not realize that the average MLB
game was 16 innings ( since again for BOTH the Cubs and Pirates Garza nearly always pitched the 8th inning) $750,000 for a good lefty pitcher at the end of his contract. Oh yep that is a ton of money. Contending teams looking for pitching at the deadline NEVER pay anything like that. I am surprised the Cubs did not ask the Pirates to pay for Grabow’s salary in the trade. Hendry was being a big hearted guy to take that horrid Grabow.
He just threw in the Cubs #6 prospect and well regarded young pitcher to cover it all up.
FYI here is the ESPN assessment of the trade. Apparently they did not think the Cubs were “taking” on Grabow as a favor and getting Gorzo as a present.
http://espn.go.com/sports/fantasy/blog//name/fantasybaseball/id/4367522
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 8, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I really don't care that much.
Sorry.
Where have you gone, Kiko Calero. A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
OK off for the night
or at least 11 PM
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 7, 2011 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions
But if the Cubs sign Kazmir, he will immediately get hurt.
That’s just kind of how it works.
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
Ryan Dempster would like a word with you.
This Cub occurance thing is alittle overblown.
R.I.P. to my grandfather, Andrew Wiley
The reason I am a Cub fan forever
Yea, yea
Maybe it’s just with guys bring up from the minors
Keep that Q Train rollin' in '11. Let's win it for Ronnie.
He may already BE hurt. I don't know that it affects my calculus here.
I’d just sign him and start him b/c he’d presumably be reasonably cheap, it has the potential to be mildly entertaining no matter what happens (i.e. “hey, the Cubs are trying to resurrect Scott Kazmir! He used to be good!” as a 2nd-half storyline for at least 1-2 news cycles), and because there’s really no downside.
I mean, if they give him 6 starts and he loses every single one of them with an ERA over 9.00, we can say that’s the second time this season we’ve done that. Our expectations literally cannot be lower!
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
by D98 on Jul 5, 2011 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I wonder if he should try and pitch in Japan
Already with the funky delivery
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
More and more everyday
I would love to have a poker game/party with SenorGato, NBF, SWL, AL, Dan, Josh and DS.
I think the word of the tourney would be “WHO’S DEALING!!”
"Hey.....Cubs win!!!" ---Harry
"Cubs win....what a lucky break!!" ---Harry
Deal me out I am afraid
Maybe Bridge.
"I am not ashamed to say I love Greg Maddux" - Jim Hendry
Me either
by Doggie Stalker on Jul 5, 2011 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions
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