Chicago Cubs Top 40 Prospects
System Overview: The bad. This system is not very good at the higher minors. It lacks impact players. Yes I've heard a scout said the Cubs had more probable ML players then any other system. The problem is it's a solid ML average player (Jackson maybe Vitters), 4th OF type (Ha), UTL (Flaherty, LeMahieu, Cerda, Watkins), Mid rotation SP (McNutt, though he has the upside of a 2), and bullpen arms (Carpenter, Dolis, Beliveau, potentially McNutt also). Nice players to fill out a contending roster but not players you win championships on their backs. Josh77 had a great article about past W.S. winners and how they all had I think 2 HOF caliber (or already HOF) players on their rosters. They also need 2-4 above average ML players. Josh link that article in this thread if you could. I think it helps to make a point and it was just a flat out good read. Hopefully we have that 1st piece of perenial A.S. in Castro.
The good. Ricketts have spent something like 20-25 million on IFA's the last 2 years and the draft this year. We have a huge influx of talent but it is all very far away from making any impact on the ML roster. It's gonna take a few years to sort out who is actually good and who flames out. Hopefully with just the pure number of players we have signed potenialy we can get another Castro caliber player and a couple above average ML players. Only time will tell. The thing is the strength of our system is now mostly potenial. I asked JiM Callis today in his prospect chat where he thought the Cubs system ranked and he said that the system was middle of the pack with very good depth. The ranking is actually optimistic imo. I wold said no better then 20 and probably closer to the 25 range.
I applaud the Rickeets by putting the cash into player development. I was against signing a guy like Adam Dunn. even if Dunn was putting up his normal season had he been a Cub he still would not have made much difference for 2011 or even 2012. The money that would ahve been spent on him over the next 4 years would be better spent on young players.
Draft: We spent $1.5 million this year or just slightly less then we have spent on the past 3 drafts. I think that speaks volumes! I'm not gonna rehash the draft but I know there is a few more names I could added from this draft class but I ahve to stop somewhere. we are doing what I have been lobbying for since 2008. I like the direction we are moving in.
1. OF. Brett Jackson - AAA - Sept. 2011/Early 2012 - I like but don't love BJax. Does a lot of things well but nothing outstanding. Good spped/power combo. Draws a ton of walks which I love. The problem here is take out 2010's 8/19 start once he promoted to AA and this years hot 3 week start and your talking about a guy who has hit 250ish in AA. He K's way to much and does not have the ability to make consistent contact at this point. Jackson has been said to be more of a solid regular then an A.S. caliber player.
IMO the best we can expect from him is a Mike Cameron type offensive type player. The thing is I still have serious doubts about Jacksons ability to hit for average. His OBP should help offset his AVG but your looking at a 250-260 from what I see now.
2. RHP. Kenneth "Trey" McNutt - AA - Mid to late 2012 - Disapointing season. The talent is still there though. Plus FB/CB and his CU is actually far better this season. Part of his problem has been the HRA and being hitable. Very well could be written off to blister problems. K/9 rate has been coming back twoard 2010's #'s.
3. SS. Javier Baez - Best H.S. bat in the 2011 draft. Uber quick bat speed. Is the 1 player who profiles as a potential A.S. Has the most upside in the system right now and probably talent wise should be the #1 prospect. Will move to 3B but has plenty of bat for the move. Before I rate him higher I would like to see what the PD is gonna look like. I know the #'s were ridiculously in favor for his BB/K rate but probably more of a product of being far more talented and H.S. pitchers working aorund him the above average PD.
4. CF. Matt Szczur - LA/hA - late 2013 - Cautiously optimistic about him. Szczur profiles as a dynamic true CF/leadoff guy. Barrels balls well combined with plus speed/athletism. Power maybe better then advertised.
I know many will want to see Szczur as the 1 or 2 on this list but I have slight reservations. I really Szczur and I know many were super high on his work at Perioa. The thing is as a 22 year old college product with a few months of pro expierence coming into to 2011 I expected nothing less then dominating. Some on this site have tried to compare his 2011 season with Mike Trout's. It's not the same. Trout was 18 years old fresh out of H.S. and dominated. Age matters. Again I like Matty but after his promotion to high A the AVG went down as did the BB and the K's went up. Power seems to be emerging but with everyhting I just said it's a small smaple size. I will be really watching what he does next yhear against adavanced pitching and I think 2012 will be the reall telling of the Matt Szczur story.
5. 3B. Josh Vitters - AA - 2013 - Good but not great season. Spent 20/21 over the last 2 years in AA. Very young and could easily have spent the last year and a half in lA/HA and be considered a prosepct. Still has BB issues. Power is coming around. Good hit tool. The ultimate talent is still there but right now profiles more as a solid average regular then an A.S.
6. OF. Jae-Hoon Ha - AA - mid/late 2013 - Tough out who has serious OBP issues which have been exposed against more advanced pitching this year. Has emeraging power but not sure it's better then 15 hr anually to go w/ average speed as well as a good arm but unfourtunatley profiles more as a 'tweener. Not enough range for CF and not enough power for RF. Needs to take a real step forward in power to be considered a above average ML regular. IMO should spend most of 2012 in AA focusing on drawing walks.
7. IF. D.J. LeMahieu - AAA - Early 2012 - Great swing that puts good wood on the ball consistently. Lack of power holds his upside down. At best could profile as offensive minded 2B but has footwork issues defensively. Doubled his Hr output this year but still just 4 hr. Right now I don;t see much difference between him and Darwin Barney at this point. Little better hit tool from D.J. better D/speed from Barney. LeMahieu has better power potential but right now it's just that....potential.
8. RF. Reggie Golden - 19 - SSA - 2016 - Actually a pretty solid season. Walk rate was better then I expected. Low BA and has K'd @ a 29.6% rate. Will need to work on this. Has big time power potential and great arm. Speed is above average presently but should slow down some as he matures. Has A.S. potential but is far from that right now. The quintessential boom or bust prospect. The pitcher friendly MWL will challenge him next year.
9. RHP. Dillon Maples - 18 - Top 50 talent got $2.5 million to sign as a 14th rounder. FB sits 91-94 and can touch mid 90s. FB command is lacking. CB is above average and spots it well. Falshes CU but has not used it much in games for obvious reasons. Athletic but mechanics need ironing out.
10. 3B. Jeimer Candelario - 17 - DSL - Profiled him in March and said to watch. Very agressive ranking considering he is not even stateside yet but his numbers in the DSL are backed up by his scouting report. Switch hitting 3B has a good arm but needs work at the hot corner considering 10 E in 58 games. Plenty of time to work on that. Has the ability to hit for both AVG and power. Good bat speed and advanced feel at the plate. Sporting a gaudy 50/42 BB/K. PD won't be this good stateside but very promising.
11. SS/2B. Logan Watkins - 21- hA - early 2014 - Really like this kid. Very versitile, draws walks, and has plus speed. Flashed a little better power this. Has played all voer the diamond over the last 2 years (no 1B or C). Has a Marco Scutero feel to me. I know Scutaro is not a flashy name but he's been a very valuable player for some of his teams.
12. RHP. Ben Wells - 19 - AZL- 2016- Groundball machine. FB (89-93) w/ sink is solid and a promising CB. Still needs to spin it more consistent. CU is rudimentary. Reminds me of Zach Britton (BAL). More advanced then Britton at the same age.
13. RHP. Aaron Kurcz - 20 - hA - late 2014 - Potential for 3 above average pitches. Starts w/ a 90-93 FB, deceptive CB from a 3/4 arm slot. Also has flashed a plus CU. Began career as a reliever but may stick as a SP. At the least he could be a power bullpen arm. Get lot's of SO and stuff plays up out of the pen.
14. Dae-Eun Rhee - 22 - hA - early 2014 - Finally seems to be back from TJS. Stuff is back, FB velo back to 91-94 and maybe more importantly CU, once considered the best in the system is close to form. K/9 has surged lately and command is solid at this point. My 2011 sleeper.
15. IF. Marco Hernandez - 18 - AZL - Athletic Mi who runs well and controls the strike zone well. Versitile and has teamed with Gioskar Amaya to form a very promising MI combo. Offers excellent bat speed and potential to add some power.
16. LHP. Austin Kirk - 21 - lA - FB sits in the 88-91 range. I've heard some say higher but still have yet to see any real eveidence of this. FB does explode in on hitters. 21 and in low A leave me a bit skeptical but hs some upside. I don't know what it is about him but I think better is to come thus the high rating even though the numbers have been falling all year. I liek Kirk right now but may not be much different then Chris Rusin when all is said and done.
17. UTL. Ryan Flaherty - 25 - AA/AAA - Sept 2011/mid 2012 - Still not a fan. 25 and still has not proved to hit advanced pitching. IMO best case senario is a UTL guy w/ some pop. Still very skeptical though that he's a ML. I know this opinion won't be popular w/ the guys on the BCB.
18. 3B. Dustin Gieger- I love this kid. Emerging power and solid defensive skills. I really like Gieger's upside.
19. 1B. Dan Vogelbach 18 - Boise (2012) - 2016 - Plus power and good hit tool. Has a decent eye for a H.S. kid. Really surprised it took $1.6million to sign. Has been compared to Prince Fielder on this site. Here is my take on those comps:
2 huge differences here. To start Fielder is not some fat kid. The guy is a vegan who eat's right. Prince is not out eating cheeseburgers affer games. This is not John Kruk! Fielder is far more athletic then what you think. Ok, let's even take that out Fielder who was the #8 pick, had an elite hit tool. K, no that uncommon. But his eye was elite for a H.S. kid. His power was elite, and I mean his present power. Vogelbach was a good pick but he is in no way in Prince's class at the same stage.
20. IF. Goskar Amaya - 18 - AZL - Adavanced baseball instincts, makes good contact, and controls the strike zone well. This is a guy getting a lot of helium who I profiled before the seaosn started. Runs well and has some loft to his swing. I know soome are higher on Hernandez right now, and rightfully so, I think Amaya's feel for the game may give him the edge.Versitile player who has played SS/2B/3B. He and Hernandez have been splitting MI work. I really like these 2 working together.
21. 2B/OF. Zeke DeVoss - SS-A - early 2014 - Has domintaed low minors thus far and should be coming from a top tier college program. Plus speed and great eye. No present power. If he sticks @ 2B could be a really nice offensive minded top of the order guy.
22. CF. Jeffrey Baez - 17 - DSL - Athletic with a projectable body. Plus-plus current speed and good arm to play CF. May slow down soome but has power potential. I like him.
23. RHP. Dallas Beeler - 22 - hA/AA - early 2013 - Low 90's FB that can touch 95. Solid CB but needs to work on CU. Command/Control is good but has been very hittable in AA. I think he will profile better as a 7th inning guy where his stuff will play up a tick and his control/command would also help his stuff play up. Will still be giving a chance to start but i htink the bullpen is where he fits best.
24. LHP. Jeff Beliveau - 24 - hA/AA - Mid 2012 - 88-91 Fb with plus life and a hard downer CB that generates swing and misses. Control/Command has improved. Looks like a good late inning option or worst case senario is a LOOGY.
25. RHP. Tony Zych - 22 - late 2011/early2012 - Profiles more as a set up man. Good FB sitting 94-97 and can touch 99 but can get flat. Inconsistent mid 80s SL.
26. RHP. Chris Carpenter - 25 - AA/AAA/ML - 2012 - Former starter moved to relief has a power arm bring plus FB that sits mid to upper 90's and a solid SL. Control/command is currently below average and will need to work on this to claim a late inning spot for 2012.
27. OF. Rubi Silva - 22 - lA/hA - Not impressed with this 1 million dollar investment. Has plus speed but not really much else as this point considering his profile. 3 % walk ratio and 19 % k ratio are not what you would like to see from a 22 year old CF/leadoff in low A. Now I will concede this is 1st go around in pro ball but his Cuban stats back up these conclusions thus far. I rank him this high purely on the upside that is there but is so raw for a 22 year old in the low minors.
28. 2B. Matt Cerda - 21 - hA - mid to late 2013 - OBP machine has been playing 3B but profiles better as a 2B because of lack of pop. Some we rate him higher but his lack of power I think limits his ultimate value to a ML team. Love the PD though.
29. RHP. Jin-Young Kim - 19 - SSA/AZL - Got a big signing bonus but was roughed up in intructs and @ Boise but has posted better numbers once demoted to AZL. Stuff isn;t elite right now w/ 87-90 mph w/ some sink, and CB/SL/CU that are currently below average. Command was said to be his calling card. Not sure what to make of Kim right now. I may have him overrated at 29 right now.
30. RHP. Rafeal Dolis - 23 - AA - Late 2012 - Power arm out of the pen. Mid 90's FB with great sink but inconsistent SL. K/9 is down this year and walk rate is to high. I like him but needs to better control/command.
31. OF. Abner Abreu - hA - late 2013/early 2014 - Love this kid. Lean and athletic. PD needs a lot of work but power speed combo is exciting. Quick hands and looks a lot like Soriano at the same age. Let's not forget how good Soriano was over the 1st 8 years of his career. Lot's of upside but needs refining.
32. OF. Trey Martin - 13th rounder who got roughly $1 million less to sign then Dunston Jr. I do like Martin more at this point. Fellow CF with good speed and better idea of what he's trying to do at the plate. Could fill out and show more power.
33. RHP. Yao-Lin Wang - 20 - SSA - Low 90's FB with some sink. Sometimes flatens out though. Solid CB. Got 600k to sign and has put up good numbers this year. A player to watch for next year.
34. IF. Junior Lake - 21 - ha/AA - late 2013 (if ever) - Lake is an enigma. Has enough pure talent to rate easily in the top 10 and has shown some production the last 2 years but has some serious flaws. To start has the best arm strength in the Cubs system including pitchers. Has the size and strength to be a force on offense Power potential is there. Has to many holes in his swing as well as serious PD issues. Actually regressed in his 2nd go around in high A as far as bb% goes. Power has contined to grow this year. Will not play SS regularly in the ML but could easily profile as a 3B. Could also play 2B or LF. I don't think he profiles as a UTL player because he either claims an everyday spot or just can't play in the ML. His speed is better under way and rates as average and his base running skills play up. Will not steal 30 bases in the ML. Some will see him as higher rated prospect and I can see this but right now to many issues that more advanced pitching can expose.
35. OF. Garrett Schlect - 18 - AZL - Lefty who makes good contact and hasgood bat speed. I lik him and htink he's an under the radar guy.
36. LHP. Chris Rusin - 24 - AAA - Mid 2012 - Fringy FB sitting 88-90 but a great CB and solid CU. Good BB/9 and K/9 numbers split between AA/AAA. Could be a #4/5 SP but for my money he profiles more as a middle reliever/LOOGY. I know this won't be a popular analysis on this site but that's my take.
37. 1B/3B. Willson Contreras - 19 - SSA - Defense needs a ton of work. Does profile as an offensive minded 3B. Having a solid 1st season stateside. Current power is lacking but does have show some potential to fill oout and add power. Has been pretty hot after a slow start.
38 OF. Dong-Yub Kim - 21- AZL - Huge upside finally healthy but extremely raw. Has above average power/speed. Will need to work on PD as evident by 4/35 BB/K ratio. Has missed the last 2 years so pretty rusty.
39. RHP. Starlin Peralta - 20 - AZL - Promising arm who struggled in the MWL. Can touch 94 but secondary/control/command are lacking at this point. Love the build and may add velo but needs to refine his overall game. Still has some serious upside if..................................................
40. OF. Shawn Dunston Jr. - LH CF prospect w/ obvious ties to the Cubs. Maybe a bit overhyped imo. Very raw and long term power is questionable. Does have above average speed.
Let me touch on 3 player swho I'm sure will be asked about:
1st: 1B. Justin Bour. I know many will wonder why he didn't even make my H.M. but a 23 year old 1B in A ball who can't hit lefties screams non-prospect to me. I know he's had a good season but age matters as well as a player who is a 1B only who can;t hit lefties.
2nd: RHP. Nick Struck who did make my H.M. and brings good mid 90's heat but his secondary pitches are below average currently. Could be a decent bullpen arm if he can find a solid 2nd pitch.
3rd. RHP. Robert Whiteneck was putting together an eye opening seaosn until TJS surgery derailed it. Probably a year from pitching again and maybe 18-24 months before stuff/feel comes back. He was rising up my board but I want to see how he comes back.
Honarable Mention - LHP, Hunter Ackerman, LHP. Jeffry Antigua, OF. Micheal Burgess, C. Yaniel Cabezres, RHP. Alberto Cabrera C. Wellington Castillo, LHP Willington Cruz, 2B. Wes Darvill, LHP. Cameron Greathouse, RHP. Luis Lira, IF. Danny Lockhart, OF. Kyung-Min Na, IF. Carlos Penalver, RHP. Addison Reed, C. Neftali Rosario, SS. Francisco Sanchez, RHP. Alexander Santana, RHP. Larry Saurez, RHP. Taylor Scott, SS. Blair Springfield.
Going Forward: I would love to see us sign a guy like Price Fielder but what does he change about this team? Not much imo. A few more wins maybe 10 but still leaves us far out of contention. Unless the Ricketts are willing to go all Yankee and sign Fielder, Cano, an OF, and 1-2 SP (at least 1 ace quality) we really don't need to make any major signings for 2012. What we need to do is continue to invest in IFA's and the draft to build a farm system like the Rays. Once we start to graduate players and build a strong system we have the ability/resources to spend with the Yankees/Red Sox to retain these young players and sign a CC and/or Mark Texiera to put us over the top. This will only happen once we build a good base.
I've put a lot of work into this piece and have been working on it for over a month. Not non-stop but pieceing things together. Don't get to hung up on exact rankings as the top 4 guys could all be made a case for any spot 1-4. 5-10 could all be moved around. This is a rough ranking of everyone. Please also feel free to profile anyone I missed or add comments about scouting reports. Please name anyone I have missed as I'm sure I missed someone.
Hopefully this will be a fun read and give you some hope for the Cubs organization going forward. BTW I didn't have time to re-read and fix the spelling and gramatical mistakes so please be kind when reading. Hope this stimulates some good discusions and feel free to ask my opinions on anyone I didn't hit on.
Dan
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
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Thanks
it was a fun read! Was wondering where you’ve been.
Lots of things to comment on, but the first note I’ll make is that I would be very happy with Jeff Beliveau and Chris Rusin being given a shot at a LOOGY role next year. Fill those role playing slots, like backup C, backup MI, 5th starter from within and see if one of the lesser prospects can contribute some value while they’re cheap.
Angel Guzman is the man.
Very informative, thank you!
I really appreciate the time and effort this post must have taken. Thank you for your thoughtful comments on these players. Your comment about the system having nice players to fill out a roster is, I think, right on. In two to three (or four) years when the guys in the lower minors are ready to graduate, hopefully Ricketts will open up the wallet and let the new GM acquire (FA or trade) the impact guys that could make a difference.
A couple of comments/observations:
I’m mildly surprised Clevenger did not make the list anywhere (or did I miss him somewhere?).
If DJ adds a little power, as often happens with young players, I see a RH version of Todd Walker. Maybe not quite the OB skills, but he certainly reminds me of Walker defensively (not a good thing).
I still think Vitters could be an impact bat, but he can’t play 3b. He’ll have to move to 1b or dh.
Perhaps he is trade fodder in a year or two.
By 2013 we’ll curse giving up Hak Ju Lee (actually, I am already cursing this after perusing BA’s tools issue).
"We gotta circle the bandwagons." - Devin Hester
RE: Lee
Hak-Ju Lee is the 1 player i said when ther Garza trade went down that we would regret. Archer I don’t like, Guyer is a 4th OF which we already own many, Chirinos is a back up C or maybe a league average player at best.
Lee would rank easily as my #1 prospect if he were still in the system.
scoutingthesally.com scouting service $17.95. Very cool service check it out.
Lee would be #2
Behind BJax.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Aug 25, 2011 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions
thanks for this....hope you don't mind that I printed it out so I have a reference when I read about these guys.
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
Really like the list
I would just like to switch Matt s and baez bc at least Matt has played in the minors
by Chitown Beatdown on Aug 24, 2011 8:52 PM CDT reply actions
Only an Honorable Mention for Welington Castillo?
I’m not as high on him as anyone else (think his likely future is as a good backup/mediocre starter), but he’s pretty solidly in my Top 10. Good catchers are hard to find and I think he has a shot of being better than average down the line.
Otherwise, nice effort and solid list.
That was my thought
I’m not high on Castillo either, but to not even put him in the top 40 is awfully rough. My guy Steve Clevenger is not on the list either.
Think he’s way too hard on Carpenter and Dolis, but I think that’s at least defensible if you’re not in love with late-inning relievers who don’t throw strikes.
by Josh Timmers on Aug 24, 2011 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions
When I make my list
the relievers won’t be very high, either. I mean, their ceiling is essentially a 2 WAR player.
Oddly enough
I think the best reliever in this system is Jeff Beliveau. Dolis has been uninspiring and Carpenter’s walking the world at this point.
I don’t think I’d have any relief pitchers in my Top 30 come the end of the season. If I do, Beliveau will probably at the back end of that list. Most of the high level guys are getting long in the tooth or have been around long enough to have their warts known to the world, whereas guys like Kurcz and Zych are a touch too far away to properly gauge. Minor league relievers have a really shaky history.
by Outshined_One on Aug 25, 2011 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions
RE: Castillo
I respect you outshinedone/josh77 and I very much see the argument for Castillo being at least top 40. I’m not of the school that a guy who has zero BB skils and serious contact problems being a top 40 guy. He does offer a strong arm and power but I don’t feel He’s any better then Koyie Hill. This is just my opinion though.
scoutingthesally.com scouting service $17.95. Very cool service check it out.
I do want to thank you
for writing this up, even if I don’t agree with some of it. The more discussion of the minors the better.
by Josh Timmers on Aug 24, 2011 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Yet you have Abreu and Lake in the top-40?
Castillo walks and makes more contact than either of those guys, and he’s already at AAA, and he plays a more valuable defensive position.
Abreu and Lake are purely “tools” guys right now. High ceiling, but very very little likelihood of reaching that ceiling due to their atrocious plate discipline.
by SouthernCub on Aug 25, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Thanks for the extensive revue
I understand how much effort you must have put in compiling the info.
Re: Castillo: The past 2 years he has added .062 and .064 to his BA with BB. Granted it isn’t equivalent to Soto’s .090 rate but when you look at his OPS, I could make a case for trading Soto and bringing both Castillo and Clevenger up. A L/R catching combo makes good sense to me.
If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.
Where is Simpson?
- pick to bust already? And how about an honorable mention for Marwin Gonzalez? No?
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Aug 24, 2011 10:07 PM CDT reply actions
oh, and thanks. Good work.
The sun is up. They sky is blue. It's beautiful, and so are you. Dear Prudence, won't you come out to play? ~Lennon & McCartney
by SouthWabashSoul on Aug 24, 2011 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm really excited for Jackson, I hope he's up and finds PT this September.
I also think the Cameron comparison is a pretty good one.
feet firmly nailed to the floor of the Tyler Colvin bandwagon...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 24, 2011 10:12 PM CDT reply actions
You are way too down on BJax, you list Mike Cameron as a comp, well Mike Cameron
is a top 20 WAR player in the last 15 years, so if BJax can be Mike Cameron, all Cubs fans should be very very happy. Also, who cares if BJax only has a BA of 250-260? he’s a leadoff guy and the most important stat for a leadoff guy is OBP and even when BJax isn’t making contact, he can still take a walk, which is an extremely important skill.
I think BJax has the chance to make a few AS games during his early prime years.
Mike Cameron was one of the best defensive CFs in the league during his prime
BJax doesn’t have that kind of potential on defense.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Aug 24, 2011 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I just don't think Cameron is a good comp...
In anyway, shape or form. Other than that, Flaherty’s writeup, and Clevenger’s omission, I pretty much agree. I think it’s too early to write of Hayden Simpson also.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
by Unique on Aug 24, 2011 11:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Also, Struck deserves to be top 20..
On my personal list.
'Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up.'
by Unique on Aug 24, 2011 11:56 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
You don't think the offensive Mike Cameron is a good comparison?
feet firmly nailed to the floor of the Tyler Colvin bandwagon...
by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 25, 2011 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I think BJax will be much better offensively compared to Cameron mostly due to OBP
Cameron has a career 337 OBP and BJax has pretty consistently maintained an above .370 OBP for his brief career. So while BJax might strike out at a similar clip as Cameron, he’ll also likely take significantly more walks than Cameron has during his career. Cameron was pretty close to a 20/20 guy during his prime and early post-prime years and BJax looks to be a 20/20 guy moving forward.
minus some speed (or some power) and probably some AVG
Depending on whether it’s young Lankford (a 35-40 SB guy with 15-20 HR power) or prime Lankford (30 HR power with 15-20 SB speed), Lankford brought a little more to the table than Jackson is likely to bring.
RE: .337 OBP
While yes his OBP is 337 for his career it’s 90 points higher then his AVG. BJax OBP is roughly 100 points higher from his AVG. Cameron was a guy who would get 60-80 walks a year and his OBP was held down by low AVG. So basically I’m not buying Bjax as a 280-290 hitte rin the ML. THat’s just my take. Cameron was a guy who K’d a lot but also drew a lot of walks.
I do not know why Cameron is seen as such a slight for a comp. This guy was a perennial 20/20 guy for 11 straight years. What’s not to like. He drew walks K;d a lot and had a low aAVG. IF Bjax had a Mike cmaeron career I’d consider us very happy
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.370 > .337 anyway you slice it
If BJax can continue to maintain a 370+ OBP, he will provide more offensive value than Cameron, especially since BJax is likely to bat leadoff or #2 in the lineup, where high OBP is most important
also
I do not know why Cameron is seen as such a slight for a comp.
Who said that? I would love for BJax to be a Mike Cameron type clone. As I stated in this thread, Cameron is one of the 20 most valuable players based on WAR in the last 15 years, but a lot of his value was derived from his defense, not his offense. And BJax is not the defensive player Cameron is. BJax will likely derive more value from offense relative to defense moving forward.
ML >>>>>>>>>>>MiLB
Cameron’s OBP is in the ML BJax is in the minors. Big difference bud. Check out Cameron’s AA in ’96 and AAA in ’97. Sported .402 and .378 OBP. So yeah pretty darn close to what BJax has done in AA and AAA.
scoutingthesally.com scouting service $17.95. Very cool service check it out.
Did I not use the word "likely" with BJax? Likely doesn't mean BJax will, it means he has a good chance to
Mike Cameron only posted an OBP above 370 during the last 2 years of his MILB career, his other years were 325, 329, 310, 292, 343, and 355. Now lets compare that to BJax MILB stats. BJax has never posted an OBP less than .370 in his entire minor league career, BJax has posted OBPs of 418, 395, and 380. BJax MILB career OPS is .966, while Cameron only posted an OPS above .900, twice during his age 23-24 seasons.
If I’m not being clear, I don’t think BJax will be as valuable as Cameron, so I’m not really sure what point your trying to make. In your post, you made it sound like BJax turning into Mike Cameron would be a bad (or not so good) thing.
IMO the best we can expect from him is a Mike Cameron type offensive type player. The thing is I still have serious doubts about Jacksons ability to hit for average. His OBP should help offset his AVG but your looking at a 250-260 from what I see now.
What I am saying (and have been saying) is that Cubs fans should be ecstatic if BJax becomes as valuable as Cameron because Cameron was a GREAT player. I just think BJax will derive more value from offense than defense, whereas Cameron was vice-versa and the numbers pretty much back me up. And BTW, Jackson has a 294 career MILB BA, while Cameron posted a +290 BA only once during his MILB career.
Overall, during their MILB careers, BJax > Cameron (offensively), and Cameron likely > BJax on defense.
Not a real good argument
The low OBP all come when Cameron was either a teenager or 20 or when Jackson was in college. We have no data to compare what Bjax would have done at the same stage in the minors. Also I think professional competion is far bette rthen college.
Jackson started his MiLB stats after playing 3 years in collge. So let’s just take what they did at AA.
Cameron in 836 AB 41 140 280/382/535
Bjax 565 16 60 266/370/445
Cameron was a bit older I’ll concede but pretty darn close.
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Yeah, its a terrible argument.
Who really cares that BJax has put up the better stats in more advanced MILB leagues at a younger age?
So let’s just take what they did at AA.
Do the other numbers not matter? Aren’t you overlooking the fact that Cameron played around double the games that BJax did at AA (230 vs 128). How about we expand the years a little bit since both Cameron and BJax played MILB ball between ages 20-22, at about the same exact levels. Lets take a look at those numbers.
BJax (age 20-22): OPS = 906/888/873
Cameron (age 20-22): 589/734/784
numbers be damned! But you somehow believe that BJax is a good comp with Cameron, and I don’t. I don’t think he’ll be as good overall. So I guess that I hope your right. That said, you’re argument isn’t really that good either, since you’ve decided that AA numbers matter more than others…….
Magic
What I;m saying is we don’t have any real common ground to compare except really AA. Yes Cmaeron had more games. Both had 2nd go arounds in AA.
I also conceded already that Cameron was older. BJax AA age was 21/22 Cmeron 22/23. Yes older but not a huge difference.
What I was saying is that bring up Cameron’s poor OBP as a teen/20 year old we have nothing to compare to Ja since he went the collge route. I think I’ve laid all this out very clearly the 1st time and you’ve kinda took it the wrong way.
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Agreed
Grady Sizemore is a little bit better of a comp, but still not entirely accurate.
And ranking the system in the 20-25 range is also ridiculous. The system is more in the 15-18 range.
Come on Lisa, I'm trying to impress people here. You don't win friends with salad. ~ Homer J. Simpson
by TheBeerBaron on Aug 25, 2011 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Why
Is it so ridiculous? Please rank all 30 systems and show m how wrong I am. I not only follow Cubs minor leaguers but all minor leaguers. I’m a pretty big prospect hound> based on depth the system is pretty darn good. In terms of impact talent it’s not better then say Houstons who’s farm system is really weak.
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You really can't begin to say that the Cubs system isn't considerably better than the Astros...
Whether or not you know a lot about other minor league teams, perhaps you’re jaded because you’re a Cubs fan and not very happy right now. By all accounts, this should be a top 20 system, likely in the 17-18 range with a lot of upside coming in from the low minors.
Agreed
I think there are between 50 and 200 future MLB stars in the Cubs system right now. Only thing stopping us from 115 wins a year is not having Sandberg as the manager.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I think we're in the bottom 1/3 going into next year, tbh.
Our depth is insane, but as we have been saying all along, we don’t have the impact talent established in our system yet. I say that because I believe we added several possible impact talents in the past calendar year or so.
I like Brad Wilkerson as a comp to Bjax
Bjax might have a touch less power. But maybe a touch more speed.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Hate to nitpick but....
Alberto Cabrera? I know he’s struggled at AAA but he was our # 11 prospect according to BA.
by Mulhollandmania on Aug 24, 2011 11:35 PM CDT reply actions
Cabrera
Yeah I will add him to the H.M. but he has had an awfull year. Very talented arm imo probably profiles better as a power arm out of the bullpen.
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The Cubs rushed him
Great arm, great upside, but he doesn’t belong in AAA. Cripes, he wasn’t even doing well in AA.
by Outshined_One on Aug 25, 2011 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed completely
While I still see him as a reliever as well, he was most definately rushed.
Wow. When did you find the time to do all this?
Good work.
#10 You will be missed.
by Bricks and Ivy on Aug 25, 2011 12:08 AM CDT reply actions
During DeWitt's plate appearances
I'm a Cubs fan. The Jaded Bitterness comes as a Standard Feature.
Wow. We disagree on a lot...
But thanks for the write up and the time it must have took. Definitely worth the read.
RE:
Ryno I really respect your opinions. What are the big disagreements? I wouldn’t mind seeing where we differ so much. I love seeing other ppl’s points of view. It really makes me smarter by reading many different views.
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nice work
I enjoyed the read if only for it being a prospect write-up that wasn’t all roses, butterflies and unicorns, focusing solely on potential and not as much likelihood of reaching it. I think there’s room for a touch more optimism, but on the whole it’s much closer to realism than a lot of the other prospect posts we get.
One guy I think who has a lower ceiling but higher probability that is too low for me is Chris Rusin. You mention the adequate K and BB Rates at the upper levels, but what you didn’t hit on is the ELITE GB Rates. The ability to generate a ton of GB’s should allow him to be more of a back-end rotation starter than a bullpen arm even if he doesn’t miss as many bats. You can get a long ways in the NL with lots of GB’s and great command. The Cardinals have been running out guys year after year as back-end guys (Pineiro, Westbrook, Lohse, etc) with that type of mix. I think Rusin can be a solid back-end #4 or #5, which paired with Randy Wells (if healthy and velocity returns) forms the #4, #5 slots. Garza slides in as a #2, and suddenly you’re just 1 upper-level rotation piece away from a top half rotation.
Offensively, i think we’re going to have to find solutions in free agency in the near term. It doesn’t mean we have to pursue the elite level FA’s and lock ourselves into big contracts, but the answers offensively aren’t coming from within for a while.
follow me on twitter for fantasy sports analysis @http://twitter.com/DrewDinkmeyer or get the full analysis at www.fantistics.com
by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 25, 2011 8:24 AM CDT reply actions
RE:
DartmouthCubsFan always love hearing from you bud. Yep I sould have pointe dout Rusin GB rates which are very good. I may have rated him higher. GB% can take guys up a notch from what the rest of their peripherals are. So noted. I do like Rusin though.
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Vogelbach/Fielder
You’re point about Fielder being a vegan and Vogelbach being a fat kid seems off. I know Fielder is more athletic than many believe but he was also a fat kid. He just became a vegan recently to try and handle is weight. Also, how do you know Vogelbach’s eating habits? I remember reading he dropped a decent amount of weight before the draft.
I am in no way saying that Vogelbach is Fielder part 2 and I understand that Fielder was a higher rated prospect before the draft, plus he had the whole pedigree thing on his side.
by Wrecks Grossman on Aug 25, 2011 9:20 AM CDT reply actions
They really are pretty comparable.
But cubfan1 is right on the money in that Prince’s hit tool was probably better coming out of HS than Vogelbach’s was.
I agree with that
Fielder was the #8 pick for a reason. I also agree that Fielder is probably more athletic based off of what i’ve seen and heard. It seemed to me like he was saying Vogelbach can’t become close to that level while Fielder is some kind of a health nut which neither one of those seem to be true.
by Wrecks Grossman on Aug 25, 2011 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions
From what I have read
about what Fielder’s teammates have said about him the dude is 100% muscle and that he is fully aware of what happened with him twin “brother” Cecil and is busting his butt to not have that happen..
with that said if his father was done at 33 I think Prince will be able to stretch that to 35 – a 5 year deal this offseason with a couple years worth of options would be good (if we had a good defensive infield the rest of the way around)
Yeah, he's all muscle now
but he was definitely a fat kid coming out of high school. He only more recently (in his mid-20s) changed his approach to stay in shape.
And Vogelbach has apparently already dropped a ton of weight, so it appears that maybe he also realizes he’s too fat.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare anyone to Fielder, because Fielder is such a rare player. But I don’t think the basic physical comparisons are that bad.
by SouthernCub on Aug 25, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
He does look very solid
and seems to have dedicated himself to having a longer career than Cecil. I used to want to see him fail due to being fat, probably had quite a bit to do with him being a Brewer but I’ve really come around on him and would definitely like to see him at 1st for the Cubs next year.
by Wrecks Grossman on Aug 25, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
I want him well before
Pujols…all I want the Cubs to do with Pujols is get the final price up for the Cards
by hansman1982 on Aug 25, 2011 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions
I doubt he is available on a 5 year deal
and you sure won’t get team options to go with it.
My impression of Prince is that he slims down in the offseason and puts on 20 lbs or so over the year. He’s definitely got some fat, but he is really strong. One game he had on short sleeves and he was hanging over the dugout fence and woah the dude has got some guns. The tv guys said Uecker jokes that he should put some shoes on those arms.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
Point Taken
Valid point
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The whole vegetarian thing came about because he read a book on animal processing or treatment which if you know anything about it is disgusting and often medieval. I’d guess if it was actually tracked back to the original statement, it would be something like “I’m not eating meat” I doubt he’s a vegetarian now and I don’t think it had anything to do with trying to be more fit.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
You're right on all counts except that he is in fact still a vegetarian.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080221&content_id=2383789&fext=.jsp&c_id=mil
His entire family is – and was – vegetarians before he became one, so it’s not difficult to stick with it.
Did you see the date of that article?
His wife was freaked by the book and gave it to him. I’m pretty sure he isn’t a vegetarian and hasn’t been for a long time.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
Yeah, that article and quote came two weeks after he quit eating meat
back in 2008. It’s possible he has continued to do so. But I wouldn’t say that’s definite.
I brought that up because it contained the quote ol Pete was talking about when he first discussed it.
I am saying from what I have heard as recently as last offseason, Fielder is still a vegetarian.
Not to get into a big philisophical discussion
but why doesn’t he just pay more for organic meat? The animals are treated infinately better; there are no hormones used; etc. Yeah, you have to pay a premium, but with his salary, I think he could afford it.
Hell, I make a pittance compared to him, and I eat all organic beef.
I'm not Jewish
but isn’t being Kosher mean that it isn’t created in the monstrous fashion that most factory stuff is? That would be another choice, but I’m with you. I really like meat, but I don’t eat much and when I do I try to get the better stuff.
"Prince Fielder is too fat even for the Oakland A’s" - Billy Beane
No
It means that the food was prepared according to Kosher laws, which means things like the blood has to be cleaned out of it and meat can’t be prepared in a room that cheese is present. Also means that certain cuts of meat can’t be used.
They’re supposed to be cleaner than the government requires, but that’s not always to case.
As far as factories go, there is a huge 60 acre kosher meatpacking plant in Potsville, Iowa.
I’m not Jewish, but I do know a little something about meatpacking.
by Josh Timmers on Aug 28, 2011 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry but....
Fielder is not vegan. He attempted to cut meat out of his diet a few years ago and didn’t continue with it. The comment that he “eats right” is purely speculation based on a media driven fact that is inaccurate.
Do we actually know one way or the other whether he actually quit being vegetarian?
I honestly haven’t seen anything one way or the other since the discussion of him becoming vegetarian a while ago.
by SouthernCub on Aug 29, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Fielder said this just the other day...
Tried to amend my carnivorous habits
Made it nearly seventy days
Losin’ weight without speed, eatin’ sunflower seeds
Drinkin’ lots of carrot juice and soakin’ up rays
But at night I’d had these wonderful dreams
Some kind of sensuous treat
Not zucchini, fettucini or Bulgar wheat
But a big warm bun and a huge hunk of meat
JUST KIDDING :)
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Aug 29, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
...then there's this part....
Medium rare with mustard ‘be nice (paradise)
Heaven on earth with an onion slice (paradise)
I’m just a cheeseburger in paradise
I like mine with lettuce and tomato
Heinz 57 and french fried potatoes
Big kosher pickle and a cold draft beer
Well good god almighty which way do I steer for my—-J Buffett
….that sounds sooo good! I couldn’t go vegetarian, tho sometimes I lay off meat for fairly long stretches. (till I can’t stand it anymore)
"Well-behaved women seldom make History"---Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
by cooliogirl47 on Aug 29, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think about holding off on the meat from time to time.
Then I think about what I want for dinner, and there’s meat every night…
That song is simply the theme song of burgers everywhere, and I approve that message through and through.
I'm working on my own list, so I don't want to go into it too much
but I have pretty large differences with:
- Candelerio
- Rosario
- Wang
- Chen (who isn’t even an HM?)
- Castillo
- Clevenger
But I think you and I are on the same page with quite a few others. Good work on the list.
RE:
Chen was an oversight. i will add him to H.M. Probably deserves to be in the top 40.
Candelerio is gonna open some eyes next year. I don;t think it weill happen but I could easily see Candy in Peoria next year. He’s very advanced.
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I'm cautiously excited about him
But I think you, along with most, are falling in love with Candelerio due to stats put up against terrible competition in the DSL, and the only scouting report we have on him, written by Ben Badler (while really good, is still only one person). The DSL is pretty equivalent to HS baseball, maybe slightly better. We don’t talk about HS stats much, so why should we look at DSL stats as a good way to guage these 16, 17 and 18 year olds down there? Scouting is by far the best way to see what these kids have. As for the one glowing report on Candelerio, I could find one great scouting report on most prospects. The key is to look at a bunch of them collectively. The more people that see a prospect, the better. Which brings me to my final point, which is that none of us have seen him play. I’m obviously not an expert scout or anything, but I trust my eye quite a bit when I see prospects. There is zero video out there of Candelerio and it’s pretty clear that I can’t fly down the Dominican to watch him in person.
I’m not going to completely dismiss Badler’s scouting report either, but as of right now, it gets taken with a grain of salt and Candelerio gets placed well outside the top 10.
DSL
While you make very valid points Ryno and I normally take DSL stats with a large amount of salt. I do think the DSL is a more talented H.S. equivalent but yes more raw. The thing is Candy’s numbers are backed up by the scouting reports I’ve read. I’m realy high on him but your cautiousness of him is very prudent. i’m just a bit mroe agressive.
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Have you read any non-Ben Badler reports on him?
If so, could you share them with the rest of us?
A few nitpicky thoughts
1. Is there any way you can stick a break in this (preferably before the list) so that not all of the text shows up on a smartphone until after one chooses to go to the post? I had to scroll through a LOT of text to get to the next fanpost after yours.
2. I definitely appreciate the time and effort you put into this. But there are a lot of places with incomplete thoughts, which makes it occasionally hard to follow.
As for the non-nitpicky stuff, I’m not nearly as excited as you about Abreu, who is struggling again in his second year in A+ ball. He has no plate discipline at all, and he’s not really hitting all that well either. I’d have put guys like Struck ahead of him.
Not nitpicking..
your defiantly right I wrote this in pieces over a month or so at about 6-7 different times so yeah it does flow weird. I should have really re-read it and made more edit.’s but i just wanted to get something out.
As far as the break I’m not really sure what or how to do that. If Al or Josh could help me I’d be more then happy to accommodate you.
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Thanks - I hope my post didn't seem too negative...
I really do respect the amount of work you put into putting together such an extensive list. And I agree with a lot of what you wrote and appreciate the analysis on some of the guys I don’t know much about. I just happened to first see this post on my phone, which queued up those two points.
by SouthernCub on Aug 25, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Not to negative
This is for Fsuapollo also. I know my writing needs work. My typing stinks and I tend to let to much slide in terms of grammer/spelling. Some ppl can see past the errors and some can’t. My cuson who reads a lot of my stuff, it absolutley drives him nuts LOL so I can see what your getting at.
I did really need to go back and edit and reread everything. My next list (hopefully after instucts and the fall leagues) I will take all yours and fsuapollo constructive critism and hopefully put together a better written list.
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I added a break
after the second paragraph. You just need to type below the break line. Or conversely, delete the break line and then insert it where you want it with the tools at the top of the post.
by Josh Timmers on Aug 25, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Castillo
You know i made a mistake in not including Castillo in the top 40, He is hitting this year but it’s his 2nd go around in AAA. Still not sold on him as anything more then a backup C. His defense and pitch calling can get real sloppy.
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Most of what I've read rate him as a top notch defensive catcher
and the only reason he’s still in AAA is Hill’s presence on the Cubs. I do have a problem, however, with Castillo’s injuries. Don’t know if he’s prone or just unlucky lately. The next GM will have to make a big decision on next year’s catching tandem. At worst, Hill is gone.
If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.
I echo all the 'thanks', Dan.
And since you’ve actively asked for comments, I’ll make some. All of the first group of comments are designed to make the presentation / analysis better and are certainly not meant to be “personal” in any way.
1. I concur with SouthernCub. A page break would be most helpful (full disclosure: I don’t know how to insert them, though I’ve tried to follow the instructions).
2. Proofread. There are a bunch of typo, grammar, and readability issues throughout. Three quick examples: you have “Rickeets” in paragraph three, in the next paragraph said we spent $1.5M on the draft (which is waaaaaay off), and a handful of players are missing ages and/or projected arrival dates. A finer tooth editing comb would give the analysis more of a professional look (this is one of those “personal” comments I referenced above).
3. But I think probably the biggest thing that would aid the analysis, and this goes for every prospect evaluator, is to clearly lay out how you stack your list. Meaning… what is it you value most? How do you compare apples (ex.: HS pitchers in Low A) to oranges (experienced high-level bats like Ryan Flaherty)?
Clearly, you value tools / raw potential over proximity to the big leagues. That is in no way “wrong”… it is just how you stack your list. So, IMO, say that out front of your analysis… it gives the reader greater context.
Our lists would certainly differ because I look at prospects with a slight bit more weight to proximity and then based on the standard Josh77 has laid out before (can the player stick in the big leagues and be above replacement level). For me, personally, I can’t include any player who is definitely more than four years away from the big leagues (DSL and the super raw XST guys… so that means recent draftees with the chance to relatively fast-track, like Baez, Maples, and Big V, could still make my list) on a prospect list because there is just too much projection. I would add them as “others to follow”. Again, that’s just me… you are definitely not “wrong” to include those guys on your list… it is just a different way to look at it.
That’s what I’ve got from a general perspective. As far as some of your individual comments/evaluations, here are some of my thoughts.
Disagree on BJ’s contact issues. Most of the reports say his Ks are from being overly selective (hence the high BBs) rather than just swing and miss. To me, that makes him easier to project. I agree he doesn’t have star upside… but IMO he has a bit more upside than you are projecting.
On Szczur… why would you expect a guy who has never played baseball full-time to dominate just because of age? I think some of his ups and downs were extremely predictable in Year 1 AF (after football).
Vitters: you don’t think he’s in play at all for time in 2012? I do, pending how the Cubs handle the corners in the off-season (I don’t think he really has a shot to break camp with the Cubs, but I could easily see him being up after the ASB).
DJLM: Agree on most of the write-up, though I don’t really see the power potential. That’s all based on frame growth, but there’s nothing that suggests power in his swing (contact driven, all arms, even a little inside-out). I thought 7 was far too high for him on your list, given that the overall upside is somewhat limited.
Kurcz: IMO, way off on the arrival date. He’ll start in AA next year. Given that relievers can move faster, I could easily see him getting a late call in 2012… but no later than some point in 2013.
Flaherty: I agree with you. Just wanted that noted, so this wouldn’t be all disagreement.
Zych: The flip of Kurcz. Maybe a typo… but I’d bet a whole ton of money he’s not up this year… and nearly as much that he isn’t “early” 2012. I know he’s “advanced” and a probable fast mover… but I can’t project anyone to make the majors in under a year. I’d move your projection back a year (perhaps this is what you meant and it was just a typo) and even that might be a touch optimistic.
Others… I agree, Castillo has to be on the list (top 15, IMO). And Simpson really still ought to be on a top 40 list, even if the stock is waaaay down. I’d have to include Whitenack on a top 40 list, given the return rate from TJS.
The other “disagreements” we’d have about rankings would be largely philosophical (none of the DSL guys would be on my “top 40 list”), as noted above. For example, to me… Carpenter has to be higher since he has “closer stuff” and can/will be in the pen next year. I’d move Kirk (10-12), DeVoss (~15), Beeler (15-17), Belvieau (15-17), Rusin (20), and Lake (IMO, your biggest miss outside of Castillo… Junior could be a top 15 kind of guy) up as well. I move Abreu down since he has zero PD… he’s the exact kind of guy who gets chewed up by AA. All the tools in the world can’t fix PD that bad.
Again… all that said, I appreciate the heck out of the work you did and think you did an overall excellent job. The comments from everyone else, too. Even with a down overall “farm profile” (i.e., won’t be highly ranked), following the progression of the minors and the draft has been a bright spot in a heinous Cubs’ season.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
And even with a once over, I missed something...
To echo Ryno, probably should be a part of a top 40 list.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I agree almost completely with all of what you said
But that’s probably just because you’re an FSU fan…
Only very minor quibbles with regard to Vitters and Lake.
Vitters: I think he will start next year in AAA. If he does well, I agree he’ll get a look at some point 2012. I just feel it’s much more likely he’ll struggle in AAA next year (since he struggled in his first go-rounds at A+ and AA as well.
Lake: I have real trouble with his lack of plate discipline, and his defense at SS sounds questionable. If he has to move to CF, I don’t think his bat is good enough. It’s questionable whether it’s good enough at SS. I do like Lake more than Abreu though.
by SouthernCub on Aug 25, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
RE:
On the writing please see above. I see your point.
Also Kurca was a typo I must have been looking at another name.
Thanks for your thoughts. I always like input.
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Also On Szczur
A 22 year old is far more mature both physically as well as mentally then the 18-20 year olds he’s facing. Also while I agree he’s raw and jus now concentrating on baseball he still had a couple years of college expierence and a couple months of pro expierence which is a good bit more then many of the paluyers he was facing.
Also his BB% has dropped from 7% to 3.3% and the K% has risen from 9% to 12.8%. I just want to wait and see what he does against AA pithcing next year before I jump on the bandwagon. Some seem to beleive that Szczur is every bit as good of a prospect as Mike Trout. I like Szczur a good bit but I’m cautiously optimistic
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The 1st line should read
then the players he was facing in Low A.
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You wont find a single person here or anywhere that says Szczur is as good a prospect as Mike Trout
You’re running wildly with one posters comments here and you’re misquoting and misunderstanding what they were saying…
I don’t recall who it was specifically, but their comments on Szczur vs. Trout are that they have a very similar set of tools. Trouts tools are obviously more impressive and he’s clearly the better prospect as he is 3 years younger. The only comment ever made comparing Szczur to Trout is that they play the game the same way.
Dead wrong
“You wont find a single person here or anywhere that says Szczur is as good a prospect as Mike Trout”
In 1 of Josh77 minor league wrap posts someone (and I’m not saying FSu) was comparing Trout and Szczur’s midwest eeague numbers. Someone said that thought Trout and Szczur were very comprable prospects. While I agree they have similar tools he is getting a bit overrated imo.
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Definitely wasn't me.
And I remember one poster drawing the comparison, too. Of course, he seemed to be the only one holding that opinion… it barely qualifies as a minority opinion and certainly isn’t a commonly held comparison.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
RE:
It was at least 2 different ppl. And I just said some not many or that it was a majority opinion. fsuapollo you are someone who’s opinion I respect so I hope you don’t think I was in anyway including you in the whole convo about Szczur/Trout.
Anyway I think on Szczur we are pretty close to th same page. Very good tools and cautiously optimistic.
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I read every of the wraps and I was addressing what you're mentioning above.
They didn’t say they were comparable in ceiling or talent – the person was saying that Szczur was, and I quote, “a poor mans mike trout.” Which is hardly saying they feel Szczur is on the same level as Trout, simply they will be using the same tools to be successful in baseball.
I don't know
some of the 8/1 comments seem a bit stronger than that.
I’m on board with a poor man’s Trout, though, and not all that much poorer
by PrincetonCubs on Aug 31, 2011 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed...
several people immediately questioned the Trout comp, and the poster clarified that he really meant “poor man’s Trout.”
by SouthernCub on Aug 31, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Agree with bdlugz below.
My take on Szczur is he’s probably being a bit over-hyped. However, I felt like your take seemed to undersell him a bit.
My takeaway is that he’s having a good season that gives plenty of reasons for hope and some reasons for concern. I’m generally more cautious with getting “excited” about prospects… but I’m encouraged by his season. I believe his age / maturity advantage washes out with his experience adjustment period. While he has played baseball, he’s been more focused on football. That matters. As does changes needing to be made to his body (football muscles different than baseball muscles).
Where we would probably agree…… in most systems with a little more high-end talent, he’s probably on more of the fringe of the discussion for a top two spot in the system. I see him as a top 100 prospect, but not a top 50 prospect (think it was BA that put him in the low 40s).
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
I agree with you on Szczur
I wasn’t going to mention this until my own top 50, but my first 4 are exactly the same. If Szczur lights the world on fire early on at Daytona next year, and then plays at least decent upon a promotion to AA, he could move up.
He doesn't sit there, but he can touch mid-90's.
Has almost no breaking pitch right now, though.
I don't see Rebel Ridling on that list
He’s not exciting but can play 1B and the corner outfield spots and could make it for a brief stay at the major league level.
He's also 25 and much more an org. guy than a prospect at this point.
He wont be on any top prospect lists.
like he walked off the field with the base?
surely you don’t mean he actually reached 2nd safely while a pitch was being thrown
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 26, 2011 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Report from Arizona Phil
It’s hard to explain Vogelbach’s baserunning, because he is certainly is not fast, but while Rock Shoulders (for instance) is bottom-heavy and runs like a 350-pound nose tackle, Vogelbach runs more like a pulling-guard. Again, he is not fast, but he runs hard, is light on his feet, and gets down the line OK. He is most-definitely faster than Shoulders.
by Outshined_One on Aug 26, 2011 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Vogelbach actually had som pretty damn impressive run times for a big guy.
He was just slightly slower than average, like a tenth of a second slower.
That quote on Shoulders made me LOL.
And I absolutely DEMAND we get video confirmation. I want to see Sam Adams, err, Rock Shoulders tear down the line.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
Yeah, I thoroughly enjoy it when a DT picks up a fumble/INT and has to try to run 60-70 yards for a score
For the possibility that he might not make it, the possibility that he’ll try to do a jig down the sideline, the fact that littler guys are running all around him trying to grab the ball from him/pretending to block/cheering him on, and for the replay of the sideline as his teammates laugh at him.
It’s just good good times.
He will get slower with age though
And if he doesn’t lose weight, he will get slower very very quickly. Glad to see it sounds like he has some footwork, though. That definitely shows some athleticism that you wouldn’t see just by looking at him.
He has lost a lot of weight already
His frame is one where he’s never going to weight less than 240 lbs or so.
how fast does he need to be to jog around the bases?
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 2, 2011 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions
He stole 3rd
Tell me who would like to put a tag on him barreling into the base, spikes up.
If it wasn't for the injuries, we'd be printing WS tickets right now.
while it is very informative
I think the Cubs could bring back Sandberg, Grace, Ron Cey, Shawon Dunston and Jon Leiber to make for some better baseball next year. Sorry I’m a little bit bitter.
by ChicagoBlues1983 on Aug 25, 2011 11:12 PM CDT reply actions
Brett Jackson
I don’t dislike BJax. Everyone is acting like i’m slaming the guy. The thing is take out his 8/19 start in AA last year and he .259 the rest of the way. Take out his start to this year’s AA when he hit somehting like .400 for the 1st 3 weeks he’s back at .250ish. As pitchers start to get the book on him his AVG drops. Once he steps up to the ML the book is gonna get bigger the pitchers are even better.
Right now what I’m seeing is a guy who is not gonna be a high AVG guy. Could he mature and get better and become a 280-300 hitter? Sure absolutely but right now the numbers/scouting reports do not support that.
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it happens with the top dog in the system
it’s hard to come to grips with the idea the top guy in a system might be more solid regular than superstar. Jackson has the potential to land in both ends, but because he’s our top guy people want to be more optimistic about him. I dont think your assessment is off. I think people tend to be more optimistic with prospects in general and with the top guys there’s a tendency to focus more on ceiling and less on floor
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by DartmouthCubsFan on Aug 26, 2011 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
You can't just take out good games and hot stretches, those exist in the majors just as the do in the minors...
Take out Ramirez’s bad April/May and he’s the offensive MVP of the league!! Jackson tends to be a streaky player, there is no denying that, but to argue that he wont hit for average because when you remove his streaks his numbers drop considerably is simply an unfair analysis.
You’d have to assume that if a kid was not going to be able to hit for average at all, he’d show that at some point throughout his minor league career. It’s not like Jackson has gotten lucky at every level over thousands of plate appearances. His MiLB average is .294 – if he wasn’t able to maintain that he’d show some regression over time. He likely wont be near a .300 hitter in the majors, I’d argue .275 is around his likely BA. Also when discussing his AA numbers from this year as to why you’re lower on him, you completely discount the fact that he was dealing with injuries that seriously effected his swing.
Completely agree.
I immediately tune out any argument that is based on “well, if you take out this/these game(s) then this guy is _________”. All games matter… that’s why we look at averages and percentages.
Now, if a guy’s numbers are absolutely entirely dependent on two hot streaks a year, that’s a pattern that will develop and builds a different story. IIRC, someone did an analysis of Soriano that showed he was a sub .700 OPS guy for something like 80% of the season.
Solid argument, bdlugz.
"Stuff like this is why they should shut off the internet."
by Orval Overall on Dec 17, 2010 1:19 PM CST
He doesn't have to be a high avg guy to be valuable
His speed, defense, walk rate and above average power will be the things that make him valuable.
BjAX
1 stellar month in AA and 4 average to below average months. My point being that that pitchers are realizing how to work him relatively fast. I’m not pointing out streaky I’m saying pitchers are adjusting to him him and he is not making the adjustments back. You took what I said in the complete wrong way. Partly my fault I should have made tha tmore clear.
scoutingthesally.com scouting service $17.95. Very cool service check it out.
I disagree
He had a pretty good last month in AA this year, which would go against the argument that he had a hot start and then folks made adjustments. Here are his AA stats split into 20-game samples:
2010:
1-20: .289/.400/.447
21-40: .299/.405/.552
41-60: .238/.307/.388 (note – this is also the first time he’s exceeded 100 games in a baseball season)
61-69: .235/.350/.500
2011:
1-20: .319/.437/.569
21-40: .194/.326/.333 (note: this is when he had the hand injury)
41-60: .278/.388/.444
61-67: .200/.314/.400
There is more than one good month in his AA career. I’d say “streaky” is a more accurate assessment than “failing to make adjustments.”
.362/.431/.664/.1095
The above is Jackson’s line over the last 30 days. I understand the PCL is obviously an inflated offensive league, but to claim pitchers have adjusted to him and he hasn’t adjusted back is ignoring the facts right in front of you.
You take his streakiness for inability to adjust, which simply isn’t the case. Outside of a 2 week stretch this year where Jackson had an injured pinkie (which can be hell to bat with) and his adjustment period to AAA, he’s been consistently impressive at both AA and AAA.
Agreed...
I didn’t even get to the AAA stats, in which he struggled first and then has been a monster (suggesting that it was HIM making the adjustments).
The guy is a streaky hitter in terms of AVG. But the one constant is that he’s taken his walks and gotten XBH. In AA, the AVG has fluctuated from .240-.320 over any 25-game stretch (throwing out the time where he was injured of course), but the OBP has consistently been .70-.130 points higher than his AVG, and his ISO was basically always .160 or higher (frequently over .200).
I really see no argument that Jackson hasn’t adjusted to pitching – at any level. He’s consistently driven the ball well and consistently walks. The AVG is the only thing that’s really fluctuated into a negative sense, and even that seems to be up-and-down.
You kinda made my point for me
Look the 2nd half of 2010. A .235 hitter. And like I said .259 after that 8/19 start. 2 months in 2011 hitting less then 200. Yes he strung together 20 games where h hit 278 but really? That’s imppresive considering his 2nd go aorund in AA?
I’m telling you from seeing clips and talking to a guy I respect that goes to a lot of Tennessee games Bjax looks good starting but then really is not making the adjustments he should making imo. COuld this be partly because he’s to selective? I guess.
SOutherCub good numbers and thanks I will conceded that yes he streaky he really drops off once pitchers get a book on him. i hope you could concede that point. Always like hearing from you.
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How in the world do you get pitchers have figured him out from those numbers?
Seriously, your position doesn’t conform to the numbers at all. If pitchers had figured him out, his numbers would be high and then decline and not really go up again, kind of like Colvin. They wouldn’t be high, high, low, high, high, low, high, low (based on OPS using SouthernCubs #s above).
Good luck finding many baseball players that don’t go through similar number fluctuations over the course of a year…..
No, I don't concede that point...
because it’s not accurate. His walk rates and ISO vary from pretty good to fantastic every month. The only variation is in his singles rate, and that fluctuates up and down and up and down. But when the walk rate and ISO stay consistently high, that suggests quite the opposit of your viewpoint on this.
RE:
Unfortunately you fail to see the reality here. No more to say. At this point we will just see what happens in 2012 and beyond for BJax.
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Whatever. Yes, we will see.
I think I have a very good grasp of reality, thank you.
by SouthernCub on Aug 26, 2011 10:54 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
No offense, but multiple people have offered multiple reasons why your thoughts simply don't make sense
It’s very easy to say that we’re the ones who don’t see the reality here, however when you’re the only one trying to argue a point that you can’t really back up, you may want to think about whether you’re in fact the one who fails to see the reality here.
No one is arguing that BJax is going to be a stud player, but there is no evidence that he’s been figured out or that he has issues adjusting to pitching.

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