Ryne Sandberg: Profiling a Manager
First off, yes, I realize that Ryne Sandberg is talked about ad nauseam here and other places. However, while his traits (selflessness, accountability, etc.) are most often talked about when examining why Sandberg would be the proper manager for the Cubs, his managerial qualities are often ignored.
With Lehigh Valley visiting Indianapolis for a four-game series over the weekend, and since the IronPigs play just 56 games a year with National League rules, I felt like the time would be right to see if I could gain any insight into Sandberg's managerial personality. (And yes, I realize the sample size is small)
A Brief History
55, 71, 58. In the three years before Ryne Sandberg's arrival in Lehigh Valley, those were the win totals for the IronPigs. Now, while different organizations have markedly different goals for their minor league affiliates, winning just about 40 percent of one's games is still difficult to do. In Sandberg's first year, Lehigh Valley has already set a franchise record with 74 victories and is in position to reach the International League playoffs with two weeks to go in the year. How have they gone about this?
Offense
Lehigh has not relied on player development at Triple-A this year. The IronPigs have a veteran roster (Brandon Moss, Josh Barfield, Rich Thompson, Tagg Bozied, etc.), which can be a double-edged sword. Some teams will have 25 players with 25 agendas, which quickly submarines the team. However, this group, judging from the temperament in the clubhouse and on the field, seems to be pulling as one. Mix in the experience, and generally things work well.
The two positional prospects playing regularly for Lehigh are playing well under Sandberg's tutelage. Domonic Brown has no business being in Lehigh Valley; he's Major League ready, but is able to utilize all five of his tools for the IronPigs, stealing five bases in the four-game series.
Freddy Galvis is a 21-year old shortstop from Venezuela, who in limited at bats (he was called up on Aug. 2) entered last night hitting .314. His hustle down the first base line allowed him to beat out a bobble by the second baseman, leading to the game's decisive four-run outburst last night.
And while the offense is collectively hitting .254 (with a .721 OPS), Sandberg has utilized the team's one obvious strength this year: speed. Seven different players have 10 or more stolen bases, creating more run-producing opportunities for the middle of his order. Rich Thompson leads the club with 39 swipes, while Lehigh's 103 thefts are fourth in the League, helping the club scratch across every available run.
Pitching
The place where Sandberg (and pitching coach Rod Nichols) appear to have excelled, however, is in the construction of the team's bullpen. While Lehigh's starters have been solid throughout the year, their bullpen has been one of the best in Triple-A, sporting a 34-15 record with a 2.76 ERA (449.1 IP, 138 ER, 529 K). It hasn't come through the traditional means, either, of getting six quality innings and turning it over to a few trusted relievers.
Instead, six players on Lehigh's active roster have a save, with Sandberg even going to his closer for a two-inning save on Saturday night. Mike Zagurski picked up the majority of his 11 saves in the first half of the year, before Juan Perez and Scott Mathieson began collecting saves in June. However, Mathieson was moved to the rotation around the end of June (where he had shined until last night), leading to Michael Schwimer's 10 saves. With Schwimer in Philadelphia and an assortment of power arms in the bullpen (Philippe Aumont, Justin De Fratus, Drew Carpenter) waiting, however, Sandberg was able to roll through multiple innings at a time with his relief corps, rarely playing lefty-right matchups in the four-game set.
In dealing with the pitching staff, Sandberg had no trouble pulling a starter and turning the game over to his pen. On Saturday, he pinch hit for Nate Bump in the top of the 6th inning with Lehigh down 1-0, 2 outs and the bases loaded. Bump's line at the time was: 5 IP, 4 H, 1 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 4 K, 58 pitches.With Bump cruising, Sandberg sent Cody Overbeck to the plate (if Overbeck is ever on the ML roster, that team is in trouble). Overbeck's bases-clearing double sent the IronPigs on to a 3-1 win.
Tuesday, with Mathieson struggling (3.2 IP, 4 H, 4 R, 4 ER, 6 BB, 3 K, 93 pitches), Sandberg didn't wait for the end of the inning to bail the starter out. Instead, he went his bullpen, getting 4.1 innings, in which the pen allowed 2 runs, by which time Lehigh led, 7-4.
Overall
I didn't see much of the "fire" that people are surprised to see when Ryne Sandberg manages; for the four games, he stayed even-keeled for the most part, but backing up his players when they felt the strike zone was too large, or if the umpire missed a call.
For the most part, Sandberg seemed to be thoroughly enjoying his time; his entire family was in town (I'm pretty sure the Sandberg Family Christmas Card will feature the skyline of Indianapolis from Victory Field), which I'm sure helped. And while he's always been known to sign autographs for fans, doing so each and every day - even when the last game of the series was delayed for an hour - was impressive to me.
Whether it is as a manager or bench coach, Ryne Sandberg is ready to make the leap to the Major Leagues. I have no idea if Ryne Sandberg will be the next manager of the Cubs. After watching him for four days, I came away with the impression that he's prepared to manage at the next level. His handling of a pitching staff, in particular, I felt was impressive. His team's even approach throughout the year, I believe (based on talking to Lehigh's radio/media relations director and reading the paper), has been a reflection of him and his leadership, as well.
In any case, sorry for the length, but I hope it lends a little insight into how Ryne Sandberg has managed this year.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Al Yellon, managing editor (unless it's a FanPost posted by Al). FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable baseball fans.
109 comments
|
6 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Thanks for this excellent summary.
One difference between Sandberg and Mike Quade seems clear: Sandberg seems to have a sense of who he is, what his job entails, and he is completely organized and knows what steps to take, both in the short and long term.
I think he should be named the Cubs’ next manager. This time, for sure.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
by Al Yellon on Aug 24, 2011 1:55 PM CDT reply actions 7 recs
hear, here
A friend once told me: "I don't buy the idea that a team learns anything from a loss, the only thing they learn is how to lose games."---Knight
I know he wants to be a major league manager
But if next year he isn’t hired as one do you think he stays in minor leagues or takes position as something like bench coach?
Q was obviously in over his head. There is a reason why one normally doesn’t go from 3rd base coach with no other major league coaching experience to manager.
by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 24, 2011 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
He'd probably take the next MLB coaching position that was offered.
After Hendry hired Quade, Boston, Detroit and Philly called Sandberg with AAA offers, allegedly promising MLB chances. We’ll see how it plays out. But if any team offered a spot on the bench, I assume he’d take it.
MLBMilestone.com - following the numbers to Cooperstown
This
The Cubs need this man.
Thanks for an excellent post BP.
There goes one over the fence...a Tru-Link fence.
by truelinkfence on Aug 24, 2011 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
So let's go from one inexperienced manager
to another? No, thanks.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 24, 2011 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions
He has, and did
Consider this a form of mockery.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 24, 2011 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions
He was.....cant admit he was wrong.
Sandberg would have been the better choice. Several of us said it at the time. NBF mocked us.
He was WRONG!!!! Worst manager in at least recent history (25 years)
I wasn't wrong
The jury still is out.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 25, 2011 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions
On what?
You’re not actually suggesting that Sandberg would be WORSE than Quade, are you?
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Yes, I am
Quade is not the devil incarnate some of you make him out to be.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 25, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm sure Mike Quade is a nice guy.
I just don’t care for his managing style. I don’t think he’d be any better even with a good team.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Fair enough
If the Cubs still are floundering in another year, then it might be time to cut bait.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 25, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
He is not the devil...
…but he isn’t a smart basebll guy and has horrible leadership skills.
Besides that, he’s ok.
"I don't like them fellas that drive in two runs but let in three" Casey Stengel
by MPH73 on Aug 26, 2011 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You were wrong the jury came back a long time ago.....
You just cant see it through your Kool Aid induced haze….
There is NO WAY Sandberg would have done worse.
I like Sandberg
but TJ you and I could have done better than Quade. Not saying much at least in my case…
by LT on Aug 25, 2011 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Sandberg has been a manager for what, 4 years now.
Granted, those years have been managing minor league teams, but is managing a baseball that much different going from the majors to the minors? I’d imaging that experience would be more valuable for a major league manager than a 3B coach.
Please inform me on how much it’d be different. I am sincerely ignorant on the differences and would like to know.
by Rhymenoceros on Aug 26, 2011 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Quade has been a minor league coach, major league bench coach, 3rd base coach and more
For over 20 years now. He’s done much more than simply 3rd base coach for the Cubs.
duly noted,
I didn’t look into Quades past credentials (due to mental oversight). My main question (minor league vs major league managing) is open, however.
by Rhymenoceros on Aug 27, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I would much rather have him get experience
At the big league level being a bench coach. But yes, I think he would be a good person to have coaching the Cubs at some point down the road.
Minor League Contributing Writer, Athletics Nation.
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 24, 2011 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I have no problem with him being a bench coach someplace
and learning the ropes there.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 24, 2011 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions
NBF...
… your position on Sandberg is well known. I doubt I’m going to change your mind.
Let’s say for a moment that Sandberg IS hired. Since you have specific reasons, apparently, for your position, what do you think would happen to the team?
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I don't think it would be good,
but again, a lot of what happens depends on what the GM does. I don’t think Sandberg would have been any better than Quade this season. And I think his lack of managerial/coaching experience relative to Quade’s might have made things worse.
There’s a lot of talk these days about “changing the culture” around the Cubs. Maybe the fans should change their culture a bit, too, and quit clinging to the Ryno-Maddux-Santo-etc. axis that makes for great sentimentality but never won a gosh-darned thing at Clark and Addison.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 25, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions
And perhaps Ryne Sandberg could change the culture, too.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
He's a major part of that culture
Fortunately, but unfortunately, if you know what I mean.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 25, 2011 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not one of those who wants Sandberg for sentimental reasons, as you know.
Or if you don’t know, you need to. I believe he is highly qualified for the position. The fact that he’s popular and would sell some tickets is a bonus, not the primary reason.
If you hire him for sentimental reasons, that’s the wrong thing to do.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I knew that
I think you are in the minority within the pro-Sandberg camp, however.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 25, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps so.
Sorry, would have answered this earlier, but left for Wrigley.
If people want Sandberg for sentimental reasons, they’re wrong. He should be hired because he’s highly qualified, and I think his personality and approach to the game are right for this team.
You disagree. That’s fair. I hope we get a chance to see who’s right.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Agreed, he for sure isn't.
I don’t want him as manager because he was a Cub from when I was a kid and he happened to be really awesome. Jesus, that would also mean that I want Dunston, Sut, Dawson, Maddux, Stairs (even though he was only with us for a little bit), Sosa, Alou, etc., etc., etc. as manager. No, I want Sandberg as manager because he has a successful track record, is a motivator, knows his teams strengths and weaknesses, and is willing to adapt his team to those strengths and weaknesses. He does everything that every other manager that “graces” this team fails to do. That, is why I want him as manager, not because as a kid I used to call him Ryno.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Aug 26, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I think
he most definitely is. Maybe not on BCB, but in the Cubs fan base in general? Absolutely.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 30, 2011 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions
And, Al,
your position on Sandberg is well known, too. So are a lot of other people’s.
Seems you’re implying I should shut up about it. If I should, maybe you and the others should, too. It’s only fair, after all.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 25, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
No, I'm not suggesting that at all.
I’m hoping I can at least get you to change your mind, a little.
I acknowledge his lack of experience at the major league level as a coach.
Can you at least acknowledge that what he has done has been well regarded?
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
He has had some success
I think a coaching job at the big-league level is the next logical step.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 25, 2011 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Everyone has to have a first managerial job.
Mike Quade coached at the MLB level for eight years. It didn’t seem to matter much when he got the top job.
I will say that IF Sandberg is hired as manager, they need to give him a coaching staff with some experienced MLB managers/coaches on it. That’s one reason Quade has failed.
Jim Riggleman as bench coach for Sandberg would be a good choice, I think.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I think Quade stays
and some of the underlings (Riggins, etc.) might go in lieu of some more-experienced guys.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 25, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
And I think they will.
The new GM will likely want his own manager.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
It's funny, really.
The guy who calls us meatball fans, calls us idiots, insinuates that we know nothing about baseball, and intimates that he knows more than us is the one tossing around nutty ideas like thinking Quade stays and starting a revolving door for other parts of the coaching staff.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Aug 26, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
How is that nutty?
You’ve never seen a situation where the head coach/manager stays and there have been changes at the other bench/coaching positions? That never happens?
Listen, don’t let your hatred for me get in the way of the truth.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 30, 2011 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Not trying to be snarky.
But can you name a situation like the one you describe? Where the manager stays and the entire coaching staff is replaced?
Maybe. Now narrow it down to a manager as inexperienced as Quade.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
It happens in the NFL
all the time, Al.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 5, 2011 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Really?
Name some situations. Many new NFL head coaches hire entirely new assistant coaches.
The roles of assistant coaches in the NFL and a MLB manager’s coaching staff are quite different, I’m sure you will agree.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
The Bears, for one
Lovie Smith stuck around after a horrible year, but Martz, Tice, etc., came in. It’s different, sure. Radically so? I doubt it.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 6, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that if Sandberg is hired, we're going to see immediate change...
in the attitude of this team. Perhaps not everyone will be hopping on the Ryno bandwagon, but I even expect guys like Ryan Dempster to come out and say how much he respects Sandberg. Ricketts talks about having a “culture of accountability”…Ryno will act upon it. I really believe that if he is hired, we’re going to know within five minutes of his press conference that this is the guy.
by jeffmills1972 on Aug 25, 2011 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions
LOL
Some of you guys don’t take any spaghetti with your meatballs.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 30, 2011 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions
It's hard to get a sense
of what a manager would be like from Triple-A. Yet what you wrote is very much in tune with last year’s Iowa Cubs. And look how far the I-Cubs fell this season from last year’s best record in the PCL. (Yet they did not make the playoffs because they were tied for the best record with Memphis and lost the tiebreak.)
An excellent writeup, by the way.
Sandberg is not a savior by any means. He can’t spin gold from straw. But he certainly looks like he has all the qualities you are looking for in a manager.
by Josh Timmers on Aug 24, 2011 1:58 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
my only worry is the whole spinnig gold from straw
The next manager could be psychic and know what happens after the moves he makes and so doesn’t make any mistakes at all…. and 2012 Cubs will still likely be bad.
by Madison Cub Fan on Aug 24, 2011 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I was at Victory Field on Monday
It took me about three innings to realize Sandberg was coaching third. I wouldn’t be apposed to him coaching us next year. I’m sure players respect a Hall of Famer more rather than some old guy who got into coaching.
Love those meatballs
but only on my spaghetti, thanks.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 24, 2011 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice name calling
Wish the SBN blocker worked in IE 7.
www.facebook.com/craighudak
by Craig in South Bend on Aug 26, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm really sorry
it doesn’t, Craig. You have no idea.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 30, 2011 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions
By the way,
I sure would take him managing this team in a heartbeat.
And yes I don’t want to hear what he did in Peoria 5 years ago.
Last year when managing the I-Cubs
He shot a man on the Reno Aces just to watch him die.
by Josh Timmers on Aug 24, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Speaking of Peoria,
Avanti’s has the best meatballs in town.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 24, 2011 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions
mmmmm Avanti's
Burritos at LaBamba’s are stellar as well. “Open till the bars close”
Trade me right f@#$ing now!
Burritos as big as your head
You’ll never go hungry in Peoria.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 30, 2011 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Nice Post
I say lets go and get him and if you don’t want him who do you want as a manger who are the options then.
Also if we get Sandberg
Lets just buy the IronPigs team we might win more games next year
by lshaffer_69 on Aug 24, 2011 9:32 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
LOL
Rec’d.
Minor League Contributing Writer, Athletics Nation.
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 24, 2011 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions
You made up for your first post
with this one. LOL.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 24, 2011 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice post Trey2317!
Minor League Contributing Writer, Athletics Nation.
State high point count: 4/50
If you are grouchy, irritable, or just plain mean, there will be a $10 charge for putting up with you.
by Vermont Cubs Fan on Aug 24, 2011 10:22 PM CDT reply actions
A definite upgrade!
Sandberg would be a definite upgrade to Mike Quade. But unfortunately, I think the Cubs might have to beg a little. I feel Sandberg was a bit upset last season when he did not get the job. I think the firing of the Jim Hendry was a step in the right direction. Hopefully the new GM will get on his hands and knees and bring Sandberg home. He is the right man for the job. I think we could then use a new hitting and pitching coach. If Maddux were interesting in working full time and get out of that “special assistant” role, he would probably make a great pitching coach. His brother is good at it. So, then we need to get Grace or Dawson as a hitting instructor and reunite the boys of Zimmer!!!
maRk Guttensohn
Cubbie Blue Bleeder
Memphis, TN
by Mark Guttensohn on Aug 26, 2011 8:07 AM CDT reply actions
If the new GM gets on his hands and knees to hire anybody,
literally or figuratively, he should be fired immediately.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 30, 2011 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions
IF they hire Sandberg..
… and note, I said “if”… I doubt any begging would have to be done. You’re right, that shouldn’t happen. And clearly, one of the biggest reasons Sandberg was not hired was some sort of personal thing between him and Jim Hendry.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Do you really think so, Al?
The only thing that prevented him from being hired was a personal thing with Hendry?
What was everybody else’s excuse for not hiring him?
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 30, 2011 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Sorry, *one of the biggest reasons*
I don’t know about that, but …
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 30, 2011 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, ONE of the reasons.
What prevented anyone else from hiring him? Nothing, I suppose, except an unfamiliarity with his work. I do know that there was at least one team that considered him as a managerial candidate in 2010. It just didn’t happen.
Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have. Or should have. Every situation is different.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
I can't imagine
too many organizations were unfamiliar with his work. If they somehow were, they could get up to speed pretty quickly.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Aug 30, 2011 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Or, maybe they just had other people in mind
… and assumed Sandberg was going to be hired by the Cubs.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
The Phillies
weren’t going to fire Charlie Manuel. But they offered him a job the day after he didn’t get the Cubs job.
Why weren’t other teams trying to hire Mike Quade?
by Josh Timmers on Aug 31, 2011 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, I never claimed
Quade was the “hot prospect” many here claimed Sandberg was. “If we don’t get him, somebody else will!” Well, nobody else did.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 5, 2011 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions
big difference
between a career minor league mgr and a hall of famer.
true, the career minor leaguers usually make better managers
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 3, 2011 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
How many HOFers
since 1969 have even tried managing? Ted WIlliams, Bob Lemon, Frank Robinson, Yogi Berra, Eddie Matthews, Red Schoendienst and Larry Doby.
That’s four successes (Lemon, Berra, Schoendienst, Robinson), two failures (Williams, Matthews) and one incomplete (Doby),
That’s a pretty good success rate. Can the number of “career minor leaguers” who have managed in the majors boast as good a success rate?
FRobinson was a success???? By what standard of success?
losing record all time and no playoff appearances. If you define that as success, you must believe the Cubs are kicking butt this year, too.
As for career minor leaguers and/or average to marginal major leaguers as successful managers, plenty of examples in the bigs right now.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
Won a manager of the year award
Took a crappy Montreal Expos team with literally no ownership to a second place finish. Generally, you don’t get to manage over 2000 games in the major leagues unless people think you’re doing a good job. Perhaps you could explain to me which of his pathetic teams that he was given would have made the playoffs under a different manger. The 1976 Cleveland Indians? The 2004 Montreal Expos?
You don’t understand the point about the minor leaguers. Yes, there are plenty career minor leaguers who have been successful managers. But there have also been plenty of career minor leaguers who have been terrible managers as well. The question is, and it’s a serious question, do career minor leaguers have a better percentage of successes than successful major leaguers? I really don’t know the answer to that question, but I suspect the answer is no.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 5, 2011 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
managers are recycled all the time
bottom line, calling FRobinson a successful manager is just bogus. No playoffs, no winning percentage for any team he managed.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Sep 5, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Sometimes being a good manager is getting the absolute most out of what you're given.
No one could have managed his teams to a winning record or playoff appearances. It’s not fair to criticize his management ability due to the complete lack of backing he received from every team he managed.
Also
Robinson took an Orioles team that lost 108 games and managed them to 87 wins the next year, more than 30 games worth of improvement. That team was in first place for a considerable part of the season before fading.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Still haven't answered the main question
What percentage of career minor leaguers are successful managers? You say there are lots of successful ones, but what about unsuccessful ones?
Carlos Tosca, Dave Trembley, Ray Miller, Doc Edwards, Terry Bevington, Trey Hillman, Frank Lucchesi, Terry Collins, Marcel Lachmann, Rene Lachmann, Bobby Winkles, Lefty Phillips, Ray Miller, John McLaren, Nick Leyva, David Bristol, Manny Acta, John Boles, Tom Trebelhorn, Vern Rappe, Dave Miley, Stump Merrill, Greg Riddoch. And Mike Quade as the Beaver. That’s since 1969 and that’s not even counting guys like Don Wakamatsu or Sam Perlozzo who had a cup of coffee in the majors.
Is that more failures than successful managers with no major league experience? I think so. There’s Jim Leyland, Joe Maddon, Kevin Kennedy, Jack McKeon, Paul Owens, Danny Ozark, Buck Showalter, Earl Weaver and Jim Riggleman (Riggleman qualifies under your “making the playoffs” qualification. I wouldn’t put him here, but I’m being generous.)
That’s nine managers since 1969 without major league experience to make the playoffs and 25 to bomb out. Seems like that’s a much worse ratio than the ratio of successful to failed Hall of Fame managers. And the Hall of Famers are likely going to be able to count Gil Hodges as a successful manager eventually.
Just to clarify, 1969 was chosen as a cutoff date because that’s when they start having four teams make the playoffs each year. In addition, before that was the era of player/manager which would skew the results in favor of the Hall of Famers.
Add Walter Alston to your list.
I don’t think his one at-bat in the big leagues really counts as much “major league experience”.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Doesn't fit the "After 1969" rule
OK, he did manage after 1969 and made one World Series after 1969. I counted Earl Weaver because he was hired in 1968, but I thought Alston was pushing it.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 6, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Alston managed eight seasons in the divisional play era.
… and never had a losing record in that era. That’s got to count for something.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
But Alston is in the HoF because of his managerial record
When he was setting out as a manager, he didn’t have a HoF resume.
It’s a given that people in the HoF as managers are going to have good managerial records. You can’t include them in this discussion without muddying the waters.
There are nine people who are in the HoF as players who have managed in the majors since 1968: the seven Josh listed, plus Tony Perez (44 games with the 1993 Reds, 114 with the 2001 Marlins) and Joe Gordon, whose last managerial post (8 years after his previous one) was to lead the first-year expansion Royals to a 69-93 record.
by Limey Cub Fan Jay on Sep 6, 2011 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions
You're misunderstanding Al's point
He wants to put Alston in the group of career minor leaguers who became managers, not HOFers who became managers.
I admit I missed Perez and Gordon. Although I really would prefer to leave Gordon out of it, since I was working under the assumption that managers hired after about 1969 were different than before then. It’s an arbitrary line, but in the 1950s (when Gordon and Alston were first hired) player-managers were common. In fact, the idea of a guy working his way through the minors and eventually getting a major league managerial job was almost unheard of. Alston’s hire was met with cries of derision. (One NY Paper had a headline of “WALT WHO?”) It was only after Alston was successful that the idea that someone who was not a good ballplayer could be a good manager took hold.
Gordon was hired in an era when if you were a good player, unless you had a bad reputation, you were considered a good managerial candidate. In 1969, he was just an old veteran manager serving as a caretaker of a bad expansion team. And almost no one thought he was a Hall of Famer. He’s really not proof of anything.
Tony Perez, whom I did miss, is indicative of something else. The whole “Hall of Famer” thing is incredibly arbitrary. Joe Torre (who actually started as a player/manager with the Mets) was a better player than Tony Perez, but Perez got into the Hall because he played for two World Champions and was the focus of a concerted effort to get a Cuban into Cooperstown. We all know Pete Rose isn’t in Cooperstown for reasons other than his playing career. The only reason Don Mattingly isn’t in Cooperstown is because his career was shortened by injuries.
Unless we’re arguing that Hall of Famers don’t make good managers because getting inducted to Cooperstown, even if it’s years int the future, shuts off some managing gene, I don’t see how it makes sense to include Perez and exclude Torre, Rose, Mattingly and maybe Hodges. The argument has always been that Hall of Famers are so good at the game that they don’t know how to work with players who aren’t as talented as they are.
But my biggest point is that Hall of Famers are famous. Because they’re famous, we remember them when they fail as managers. Carlos Tosca had his last managerial job only seven years ago, and he’s already forgotten. No matter who you include on these lists, I think it’s clear that Hall of Famers (or more accurately, just very good ballplayers) do not fail as managers at a rate greater than guys who rode the buses for 20 years and in fact, likely succeed at a greater rate than career minor leaguers do.
But I don’t expect evidence to alter anyone’s firmly held prejudices.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 7, 2011 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not so sure I buy your premise that Torre was a better player than Perez.
Maybe because he played 3B and catcher and was pretty good at it. But statistically, it’s pretty close.
Join us for complete MLB coverage at SB Nation's Baseball Nation
Yeah, that's kind of the point
Torre and Perez were almost identical as hitters, but Torre was a catcher and a third baseman whereas Perez was a first baseman. That gives the edge to Torre.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 7, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Hendry Missed out on Girardi
Because he did not want another layed back Manager like Baker, and Joe is turning out to be one of the best in the game. Don’t miss out on another Ex Cub.
Joe Girardi
Is a laid-back manager? Who’s your idea of an intense manager, Simon Legree?
by Josh Timmers on Sep 7, 2011 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
No
Which is why Davey Martinez would make a very good candidate if the Cubs managerial job opens this year.
by Not Bruce Froemming on Sep 7, 2011 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
I Know who Simon Legree
was,but I never seen him manage. I think it’s pretty obvious the comparison I’m trying to make in intensity between Girardi and Piniella and what Hendry was looking for at the time.
But Girardi is hardly a "laid back" manager
and that’s pretty obviously my point. You compared Girardi to Dusty Baker, who is famously a player’s manager. I’ve not heard Girardi described as a player’s manager. He’s generally considered to be an intense manager.
That was my point. My point is that if you think Joe Girardi is a laid back manager like Dusty Baker, nobody short of someone with a whip is not a laid back manager to you.
by Josh Timmers on Sep 8, 2011 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Girardi was available after the 2006
Season. He had just spent one year as manager in Tampa Bay and was let go. He was fired because he Publicly told the teams owner that he did not appreciate the unprofessional behavior he was exhibiting in front of his players during a game. this did not appear to be an intense Fiery manager at the time. I thought we were on the same time line.

by 





















